The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Annabelle Gurwitch

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

New York Times bestselling author Annabelle Gurwitch joins Andy Richter to discuss her experience living with cancer, going on tour with a heavy metal band, knowing each other in the ’90s, her new memoir, "The End of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys of a Cancer Slacker," and much more. Do you want to talk to Andy and friends live on SiriusXM’s Conan O’Brien Radio? Tell us your favorite dinner party story (about anything!) or ask a question - leave a voicemail at 855-266-2604 or fill out our Google Form at BIT.LY/CALLANDYRICHTER. Listen to "The Andy Richter Call-In Show" every Wednesday at 1pm Pacific on SiriusXM's Conan O'Brien Channel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the three questions. I'm your host, Andy Richter, and today I'm talking to Annabelle Gerwitch. She's a New York Times bestselling author, actress and television host. She's a regular commentator on NPR, former host of Dinner and a Movie on TBS, and the author of six books, including the New York Times bestseller and Thurber Prize finalist, I see you made an effort. Her new memoir, The End of My Life is Killing Me, The Unexpected Joys of a Cancer Slacker, is out next month. here's my conversation with Annabelle Gerwitch. Annabelle Gerwitch, how are you? I'm so happy to be here. I'm happy to have you.

We've known each other for a zillion years. A zillion. Yeah. And we used to see each other more in the 90s, let's say. Oh, God, it really sounds like scary when the numbers start to get this big. It does. But, you know, it is a really interesting thing, like having been around in this, having been an artist, or a schlepper, whatever we want to call what we do.

In the rackets. In the rackets. Having been in this business for a really long time, you have people that you started with and you lose track and then you see, you know, I mean, and it's interesting to see people's past. Like I've been listening to this show and I love what you're doing. Oh, thank you. And I just think it's so funny because it's just life is so.

unexpected from what I thought it would be. Oh, yeah. And when I hear you do your call-in show, I think, wow, you know, like this is like a metric for America. People are asking Andy Richter for life advice. This is like not only about you, like what you're doing in life. And I'm like, there's like the Andy Richter metric of like, how are we doing? People are asking Andy Ricker for life advice. Yeah, that is not how the show is billed, but it just does come out like that sometimes.

It's just built to be nonsense. I love nonsense. And I love improv. And so I love a radio show. And in fact, I had been offered that at one point. And the thing was my kid was little. And I would have had to do it at the same time as seeing him off to preschool. And stupidly, I picked the preschool thing.

Oh, wow. I don't know when I did that. Yeah, yeah. Because I'd love it. Would that have been in New York or here? It would have been here, but it was like out of the, you know, here on the, West Coast, but it was a network in the East Coast, so it was like I would have to get up at four, which I don't mind if people are paying me. I'll get up any time in the night. But I wanted to

see my kids off in those moments in that one little special moment in time. And that's the only time I ever made that choice, because it wasn't like I was like a mom who felt I should be there as much as possible. I wanted to limit my kids' exposure to me. I was like, it was like, I was, I was For their good or yours? For their good? Yeah. I mean, I actually, you know, really and truly, I think it's better for kids to be socialized. Yes, absolutely.

I do too. I mean, I've known, I mean, my two older kids, 25 and 20, and I, and, you know, we kind of were having kids at the same time, lots of our peers started having kids, maybe even a little bit earlier than a lot of our peers. And the ones that were like, oh, we will not have a babysitter. I'm like, you're crazy. Oh, my God. You're crazy, number one. And number two, you're not doing the kid any favors. Like, let them get used to other people, you know.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And like my kid, you know, I always say, you know, I want you to know that I have deliberately middled in my career. So you don't have to worry about like being in. intimidated by my success. Or the pressure to achieve. The pressure to achieve.

You don't like to worry about like, you know, money. Like, what will I do with that inheritance? This is not something you have to, you know, worry about it. They're free from that. They're figuring out like, at the rate this man's going. Yeah. We'll have to probably put the casket on a credit card. Yeah, I feel good about that, though.

Yeah. They have to live in the world. Absolutely. You know, so. I have a notion. I'm like, look, I, you know. I took care of those kids while I was alive. I got to take care of them when they're dead, when I'm dead too.

That doesn't seem fair. Well, it's not even an option. So, you know, I'm not even thinking about that. But I think about this way that, you know, we, I've been, you know, like I said, I was listen to your show, doing the three questions, can't afford therapy right now. Not that this moment is therapy, but I think if you answer the questions, those three questions, like listeners can do that. And it's really, it's really, I.

came up with some interesting answers in my own sort of, you know, idea of like, what am I doing with my life? Andy has forced me. Not forced. Not forced. No, I know. Invited me to consider this. And it is not at all what I expected. Well, the show is inspired by therapy. And I always did, I kind of was like, I'd like to have, like, I like therapy. And I think it's an interesting way to, and I don't mean like analysis. Like I'm going to sit here and tell you who we are, but I definitely like introspection on the notion of betterment, you know, like figuring out like why I am the way I am and how I can be better at being me. Yeah, I mean, isn't that also, I mean, what not to be like philosophical about it, like, sure, I got into, you know, my first career as an actress.

I wouldn't say, yeah, I got into it for the attention. Absolutely. I don't want to say like, I got into it for this philosophical humanism part of it, although I did. Yeah. But also, I was a look at me, look at me, kid. I mean, so, you know, latchkey kid. Totally. I mean, but those things really do interest me. And I think that they interest a lot of us.

And so, hence, we have all paid a lot of money to therapists. Yes, absolutely. Well, we could do the question. I don't often, I mean, I haven't in years done them sort of explicitly. So what's your answer for where do you come from? Well, you know, of course there's a million answers to that. Yes, of course, because it can be geographic or emotional or, you know, it can be, you know, based on mental illness. A long time ago.

What brand of the mental illness tree were you swinging from? All of them. Yeah. I have just like, why stop? Yeah. But what I was actually thinking about in terms of those answers is how. I unexpectedly have returned to where my first interest as a, you know, as a performer or as someone in the arts, which was I had one goal in life. And that when I went off to New York from Florida where I grew up, originally from Alabama, you know, so that's where the real beginning.

But when I moved to New York, I had one goal. And that was to act in off, off, nowhere near Broadway plays where had a pretty good chance of sleeping with the majority of the cast. That was it. And that was, it was in the... Why do you think you were aiming sort of lower than I'm going to be on Saturday night live or whatever? You know, I was just really interested in theater. That was just, I was a theater kid.

And that, that was, and I really, I fell in love. with the avant-garde theater that I didn't realize when I was entering it in the 80s that I didn't realize it was like kind of the end of it. I was like going goodbye

and I was like, wow, what is this? What is this? Because, you know, I had like started out in the Temple Best Shalom, you know, theater thing

and where I grew up and, you know, we did basically every play in the canon of Jewish history like fiddler on the hood, like all these, you know, plays. So I go to New York. The first play I saw was this play where the audience and the performers were in the same space.

And a woman is nude and she's on top of a piano and just, I'm fucking a piano. I'm like, I don't know what they're doing. I want to do this. And they were talking at the same time. We weren't allowed to do that. And it was like Greek mythology and Shakespeare and all these things mixed together. and there might have been some drugs involved. Sure.

And sure. And there was, it was just like so punk. Yeah, yeah. And that was the so opposite of my background. And I, but all of it was actually, you know, derived all the avant-garde theater, experimental theater from, you know, anthropology and this idea of ritual and performance and returning to these ancient texts. Yeah.

And the funny thing is, is as a writer, like in this latest book of mine, I've gone back to writing about Greek mythology and plays and art and things that I was just really interested in my 20s. And so, you know, when you ask that question, this is why I was like, God, oh, Andy, some money here. Like, how much do you charge an hour? Because this idea of like, where do you come from, where are you going? I realized in some ways I have really gone back to these original interests. And that was just so unexpected. Because I ended up.

And they just kind of crept up on you. It wasn't like where you're like, you know what? I'm going to get back into mythology. No, it just crept up on me because I spent years hosting a TV show that was all built around Ted Turner's idea of repackaging terrible movies on Friday night on TV. That was dinner and a movie and it was you and Paul. Paul Gilmart. Bill Martin. Yeah.

Right. And you did that for a while. Seven years. Wow. Seven years. I mean, I started out on not necessarily the news on HBO. which Conan was a writer on before I came onto the show. Oh, okay.

We didn't overlap in that. But this was like the comedy career in television, which is how I earned a living, and I'm so grateful for it. Yeah. That was a complete accident and surprise. Yeah. And never, it just wasn't what I was thinking about.

Yeah. I also thought I was going to inherit money from my family. So there was a whole other part of this story of life. You were on cruise conference. Just waiting for that check to drop. I actually, my dad was like a grifter. And sometimes he was really successful. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that comes with the grifter job description. You got that part. Feast and famine. But no, but you can imagine there would be some grifters who were never good at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like, there were times like, you know, he had a silver cloud Rolls Royce. Oh, wow. And then we lived on a private gated island.

Wow. where our neighbor was, not Hugh Hefner. Bob Guccione? I'm just totally blanking. The recluse. Oh, Howard Hughes? Howard Hughes. Oh, wow.

Was our neighbor. And then we would lose our house and be packing up and moving across the country in the middle of the night in a wood-paneled station. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it was that kind of thing. Yeah, kids thrive on frightening instability. Oh, it's fantastic.

It's really good for them to, you know. free. Yeah, yeah. Get out of Dodge in the middle of the night. Right, right. But the thing about theater is I just didn't really think about earning a living. So the whole comedy thing was just a complete accident. I had agents who were like, you know, you could make a lot of money in TV.

I was like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. I'm a serious actress. I trained in Shakespeare. And they're like, come to L.A. will get you a series. And I did. Is that the first like comedy job that you got? And was that not necessarily the news?

Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, no, I, well, yes, it was, well, when I moved out from New York, where I was really doing these plays, like, really experimental. I would go to Vienna to do a play written by this secessionist artist, Oscar Krakowska, who was a painter. I would go there to do a play. I mean, at the Vienna Theater Festival, and this was, like, the greatest thing.

It was in German, it was in English. It was so hated. people threw vegetables at us. It was fantastic. I loved it. I was like, this is, this is, you know, like, this is just the opposite of my sometime upper middle class Jewish background. Yeah.

You know, very, very just sort of conservative background. But then I moved out to California to do this, you know, my agent's saying, I'll get your television work. And I got this guest role on Murphy Brown playing Candice Bergen's secretary who comes to work in character as Eliza Doolittle because she's an actress who's been told to come, she needs to play this character all day. Yeah, yeah. And that show, because this was, there were so much less on television, everyone in town saw

that show. And then I was like, oh, comedy actress. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it was like, what am I, too? Yeah, that's, yeah, it's a very creative business. It's very great. Casting. When I, because my first substantial job was in the movie Cabin Boy, where I,

play like just the biggest idiot, just like an absolute dumb, like single-digit IQ. And everything I, every audition I saw after that was like, you know, he's the idiot. He's the moron. He's not, you know, he has no brains. And I was like, oh, okay. It did just, you know, it's like if you hit in some area, they're just going to be like, make more of that. Yeah.

Exactly. And, you know, you don't want to complain about that, you know. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, casting can be annoying. Like where, because for a long time, too, I mean, we've still to this, but if there's any mention of the character being overweight, I get the, you're perfect for this, you know. Well, you know, when something would say might be ethnic, it was sort of code for,

could be Jewish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slightly Jewel. Slightly Jewy. I worked a lot as an actress. And then I married Jeff Kahn. who had been Ben Stiller's partner, and I was involved in that world. And I worked a lot with Bob Odenkirk, and we made a lot of fun things.

And I cannot complain. I wound up writing because when I was on not necessarily the news, I met people from NPR who thought that I wrote the show, which I did not. I was playing the news anchor, and I did not correct them. and they hired me to write and be a commentator on NPR. Oh, wow. And that was how I started writing, was just not telling. Because I thought I could write.

Yeah. Well, I'm not writing this show, but I could be a writer. And that is how I ended up, you know, that little omission of information. Absolutely. That is a classic showbiz story. Can you do this? Of course I can. Yes.

How do I do this? Exactly. Exactly. Can't you tell my loves a girl? And, you know, I was so lucky as a writer. It's so crazy. I mean, I've published six books. I know.

Sixth book coming out. It was just really an unexpected, not at all the direction I was going. But I got really interested in writing. Yeah. You know? And in trying to become a better writer. Yeah. Do you, because you have, you know, you were a performer of very, like, is there one thing you like best? Like, are you happy to be writing books now as opposed to going on auditions and, you know, well, that's like two different subjects, though. Okay. Happy to be not, to not be going on auditions, no. Okay. That, you know, oh, yes, I really miss, but all the years of rejection have prepared me for years of rejection as a writer. I, I still get the happiest when I'm, you know, I'm.

performing in terms of that kind of like instant what is more fun um i i perform stories i've been performing stories from my books like i'll i just did a night at joe's pub uh which is my favorite um venue it's at the public theater where i did my first play oh wow which was a jacobia tragedy of course yeah uh you know in new york i did that at 19 and so going back to jo's pub performing my own work it's like always like coming home yeah you know You know, and there's nothing like that for me. I perform with the moth. And I, you know, I'm a loving audience.

It's just fun. Yeah. Writing is something so different. It's, it's just so hard. And lonely, too. Lonely and hard. But I guess I'm a masochist, you know? Well, you're a good writer.

I mean, they wouldn't keep giving you, you know, they wouldn't keep giving you jobs. I, God, you know. My favorite things that I publish in terms of like just the kind of satisfaction or when I write op-eds in the New York Times or I did write for the Washington Post or when I write for the New Yorker, I love the constraint of like a small amount of space and trying to be as just tight in the language. And to be funny in a short amount of time, because I always am looking for that. I love the challenge of that. And then usually my books, like this latest book, The End of My Life is Killing Me, that started as a Washington Post op-ed.

And there's a couple of essays that were in the post. I feel really sad about the decimation of the post. And also in the New York Times in this book. And I do, I love that. I also love people, I'm not the first person to say it's having written. I love having written. That makes me so. happy. Yeah. But writing itself is just really hard and I mean, and lonely and just you just feel like

you're losing your mind. When you're writing just to the end of like, I don't know where this thing will go or how long this thing will be. It really does feel like a desert. Whereas if it's like you have a whatever, thousand word essay, it's like, oh, well, now I have a container that I can live in and I can feel sort of protected by it or some way. I was, that's in the early days of Twitter. I loved, one of the things I loved about Twitter was that it was like a puzzle. Yeah.

In terms of jokes, like to think in 140 characters to write a joke that had like three funny ideas in it, you know, which was possible, you know, and it was, and when I could do that, it was really, you know, I would get a charge from it because I was like, that's a funny joke. And look, there's like three different kind of images that are funny.

in like such a tight little space. Well, like shouts and murmurs at the New Yorker, that's like when they publish me, I get so happy because it's so small. Yeah, yeah. And every word counts. Concentrated, yeah. And I, I, you know, the thing is I, I love reading.

I'm a reader. I just read something. I read that reading is down. Oh, really? Yeah. And that's, you know, it's such a strange world. Like I was talking with Jody Cantor the other day, you know, the New York Times writer who's, she is this venerated journalist, right? And she's show of that book.

She said, she said, you know, I mean, she's amazing. Right now she's writing about the Supreme Court. You know, I'm just in awe of her. But, you know, I was saying, and it's like sentence, I just can't believe. I'm like, Jody, you got a new book coming out. You should try to get booked on Helene's son's TikTok show. What? He's got four million viewers. You know, I'm like, I don't know that his four million viewers are readers. Yeah.

But I, I, I can't believe the sentence coming out of my mouth. I go to TikTok for all my Supreme Court news. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, really. It's short, but it's hard hitting. I love reading. So I write because I also love reading. And I get, that's just weird. get very excited by a sentence. Yeah. You know, I do. I find a great pleasure in that. And that's actually, you know, one of the topics of this book is these very tiny pleasures. I think that's a really important. I don't write, so I used to say, I write, I don't write self-help books. I write self-hurt books. Like, don't do what I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would never want to give people advice. Yeah.

But if any of my books have sort of verged on it, this one is like, you know, I tell, I don't give advice, but I, the stories, each story in the book is about something that's like what I call like an everyday gladness, which is kind of a Buddhist term, but I would never like ever say I'm a Buddhist because that just sounds so pretentious. And I have no idea. I'm an amateur and everything. I've like, I read three pages. and I'm like, I love this. This, I'm not a, but, you know, but of three pages of every book about Buddhism. But the good thing about Buddhism is, is that whole basic thing about like, don't try. Like, okay, then I'm a Buddhist, you know? And like, and I'm not going to try real hard at being a Buddhist or knowing what being a Buddhist is. I'll just be a Buddhist, you know. You know, I just like, okay, I just, anything that makes you say you have to have an identity,

I'm just naturally against. Yeah. Averse. Or is anything that's, that is popular, like, in some sense. I have written a book about mindfulness, but I don't use the word mindfulness in the book because if you tell me, oh, here's a book about mindfulness. I want to kill myself. Right, right.

I'm not reading that. And also, mindfulness is kind of over. You know, it's over. You know, 10 years ago, I don't know how many years ago, it was mindfulness, mindfulness. And now it's because they're like, yeah, let's not mind things. No, no. Let's not be mindful of things. We ride these trends really hard.

And it's really hard as a writer. You have to be so careful of that because then they're over so quickly. The pace of things move so quickly. But I'm suspicious of that. So I am not trying to write a mindfulness book, but I am writing to what is sort of sustaining because I do feel like life is a very big existential. we're living in existential times, whether or not you personally are facing existential crises.

There's an existential dread that I think is, I'm certainly not saying anything new, is in the air. Like love is in the air, existential dread is in the air. Doesn't that just sound like fun? And I just wanted to counter that in my own life and to write about these absurdities. Yeah.

And to counter that with these small appreciations. Well, the catalyst for this book is a cancer diagnosis, if I'm correct. Yeah, exactly. I was diagnosed with a terminal illness five years ago. Yeah. And I have defied the odds because I've become an outlier on this treatment that I'm on, which is, you know, it's just kind of. of extraordinary.

But I do know. An outlier in that you're one of the few people that's worked for? Yes. Oh, okay. For this amount of time. Yes. So, you know, we're living in this time of personalized medicine, precision medication. And let me just say, I was a C minus science student.

So anything I'm saying, don't believe me. What the fuck do I know? Don't question. Don't, don't quiz you on it. Yes. I'm just like Kennedy. I'm right. I'm like a half K junior.

I don't know what the fuck I'm talking. about, but I'm going to say a little bit about it. Right. So, you know, these precision medications, I'm on this medication that targets one gene, turns off one gene in your body. It's sort of incredible that they can do that. And it has, it doesn't only last for a certain amount of time, though. I feel like it's a great plot for a movie.

It's like I'm living in like that movie, the dystopian movie thing where, you know, like this, I'm living in Demi Moore's a substance. She gets to be like beautiful. hot, but just for a certain amount of time. Yeah. That's the, this is like the, this is based on science. Uh-huh. Maybe not her movie exactly, except possibly her, possibly.

Anyway, I don't want to go there. But so I'm an outlier and how long it's lasted. And, you know, it's, this is a difficult topic to bring up because I feel like the minute, like I say, yeah, I'm scheduled to die from this thing. Like you go, oh my God. Yeah. But I, this is what I've sort of learned to live with. in this sort of absurd thing of having someone tell you,

you have this thing that is most likely going to kill you because it's incurable and still deadly. But I don't feel sick. I don't look like I have an illness, but I live with this knowledge. So it's like, look, we all know we're all going to die. I'm just going to get there with a known thing a little bit faster than expected.

So how do you live with this? The book is, you know, it's the inciting incident is this diagnosis, but it's not a book about cancer treatments. I haven't had to go through that. Oh, wow. But it is a book about how do you live with this knowledge? Yeah.

You know, and that's just Greek mythology. You know, this is when I really started to go to like Greek mythology because immediately I began thinking of like, this is like a Promethean issue in the myth of Prometheus, right? Prometheus is punished for giving humans the gift of fire, but it's a, you know, they have, they know how to,

they have the knowledge, but they don't have the wisdom to use it. So unless I'm mistaken, he's lashed to a rock and eagles eat out his innards. Yeah, yeah. Basically you're every day. Over and over and over, too, isn't it? Over and over.

He's got a lot of innards. Right. It's like an endless, it's an inner reset at the end of every day. Totally. So, but, you know, I started to think about the sort of mythologies as a, as sort of a, I don't want to say, guiding principle. But, you know, they gave me a sense of like a container, not that I am in any way, you know, comparing myself to these myths. But that's what they always were intended in the ancient world. You know, these stories that just like if people have a relationship to the Bible, that we ascribe meaning to things.

I mean, I at least believe we live in a world that doesn't have intrinsic meaning. We live in a random universe. We ascribe meaning to live through it. And so this is when I, you know, it was five years ago. I started thinking about the Persephone character in Greek mythology. Persephone, Hades has fallen in love with Persephone. and he spirits her way to the underworld. Spirits is like another word for like,

he kidnap, abducts her. He traffics her. Yes. Yeah. God, that just sounds like Pizza Gate now, but, you know, it's mythology. Yeah. So then, and then her mother campaigns for her, makes a deal so that she lives half the year,

each year in the underworld, half the year in the world of the living. I was like, oh, my God, I'm like a Persephone. I'm, do I invest in life? Like, how do you live? And then partially, I'm investing in death because I have to make my peace with this diagnosis and prognosis that I live with. So how do you live? So in this book, these different stories are about these different approaches. For the first year after I got diagnosed, I did everything. I just like hit it hard. I was like, I'm like, I'm going to just do everything people invite me to do.

I am like, I agreed to go on a van tour of Europe with a heavy metal band in their low rent tour and work as their merch girl. I mean, it's so stupid. How did that job offer float across your desk? Because I was sleeping with the bands manager. Like, you know, but, but, you know, so these situations I found myself in because I was like, well, this might be my last chance. Yeah. At sex. To be a merch girl.

Oh, and that too. Yeah, yeah. But I just like threw myself into these, to these things to be a merch girl. It was just so stupid. Who wants to do that with smelly 27-year-olds in a tiny van. Yeah. Who traveling around your, this is a dream of, that you have when you're, 20s.

Yes. But this is again why I'm like, oh, my God, I've returned to this initial place. I would have loved that in my 20s. It's the most ridiculous idea. So I started seeing this guy, which was also like a complete surprise, but I'm like, this might be the last time I ever have sex. I should go for this. So when he said, oh, yeah, we're playing a mud festival.

That's what they call a music. festival where it rains all the time. In the Netherlands, I started Googling spas. No, he's sending me pictures of tents. I'm like, what though? This is a nightmare, you know? But it turned out to be this amazing trip where I, as I write in the book, I sold $1,400 of merch for this band, and they gave me the gift of indifference. They didn't learn my name. Oh, wow. didn't make eye contact with me. I was like, I didn't exist. It was hilarious.

And just to, like, be in this situation, I went on a drug run for them to get shrooms in Rotterdam. I mean, this is what the fuck am I doing with my life? You know? I just, it was so out of my comfort zone. Yeah. And that's what I tried to do for, like, the first year and a half till I was completely exhausted.

Yeah. You know, I just completely exhausted myself because I said yes to everything, which is a terrible idea. Any book, this is why self-help books are like, you've got to avoid them. Like the year of yes, Shonda rhymes, don't do that. Yeah. That's insane. Well, especially there's a reason that when you get older, you don't behave like you're in your 20s, because it's very tiring. Oh, my God.

And it's exhausting. Totally. Also, too, like when you talk about touring in a van with the heavy metal band, I'm like, I just am like, I need hotel linens. I'm not getting in a van. I know, I know. I mean, oddly enough, I'm going on tour, we're dancing with the stars, but it's, that's, it's pretty plush in comparison. You did not find yourself on tour in a hotel. It's like in Paris, we end up in this hotel where like the terrorist hideout.

There's a pile of toenial clippings under the bed with the bed and bloodstains on the carpet. Like, what has happened here? What am I doing here? But there was something about it that was so freeing also because in some sense, I wasn't me. You know, I wasn't this person who had been for the last year living with this death sentence. I was just this anonymous person, and it was pretty hilarious because I just went for it. But it was on that trip, though, the indifference that I was treated with. It taught me something.

And then I changed my tactic, and the rest of the stories in the book, after that moment, are about finding, like, pleasures and or just examining how small, decisions become crucibles when you're living with these really large decisions. There's a story in the book about a decision whether to adopt kittens that turned into an issue of like, was I willing to lie to a cat rescuer? In order to get these kittens, I was going to have to agree in writing that cats were family. I'm like, what? And I was like, laboring over this. My friends were saying, Annabel, this is not a legally binding contract. But I was like, no, what if this is my last decision I make in the world?

Right. I've lied. Because I don't think, let me ask your question. Are household pets family? No. Pets are pets. Pets are pets. I love pets. I mean, I would have a lot more than I have two dogs. I'd have a lot more. But they are. But they're pets. They're animals. Yeah, take it easy, everybody. And let me just say people are going to hate you for saying that. But I mean, well, because I do, you know, to say that they're, or like the phrase fur babies. That is so fucking gross.

Don't do that. I know. And I mean, and I am an idiot about our dogs. Like I'm an idiot about my cats. Jerk, you know, like with these, you know, my little babies. But they're not my babies. I know. If you say that your pets are like your kids, what are your kids thinking when they hear that?

Well, you know, my pets cost me less than my kid, in his 28, but this just ridiculous thing of like how that decision became so, like, it just seemed like the most important thing in the world. Like, could I sign this contract or not sign this contract? And that was, that's the way that sort of living with this overwhelming, looming issue can affect your life. And that is this, that's, that's really, that's been what has been interesting to me and then hence interesting to write about. Yeah. But then, I mean, I'm a ridiculous person. During COVID, after I publish about this diagnosis in the New York Times, a cast and director, who'd been an old friend

and I worked with years ago, Denise Chamey and called me. She and Michael Bay offered me a role in his movie ambulance. It was a really dangerous thing for me to do because it was before the vaccine. And if you have lung cancer, even if you're stable like I am with it,

I'm just like stable at stage four. It's still really dangerous for COVID. But I agreed to do it because I was like, wouldn't it be ironic if I don't? in a Michael Bay movie. I mean, like... About medicine? Yeah, that's name is ambulance.

And Michael Bay just, you know, he's like, there's like a running death count of people who, how many people he's killed in movies. What if I died while I was shooting this? I was like, Mike, I was like, oh, my God, you know, this would be terrible for my child. But there's a kind of absurd irony in it. And like, and so like, I decided like, oh, yeah, I have to be in this movie. Yeah. I mean, sure. I'm going to do this.

So, you know, there's just, I'm, you know, it's a variety of stories, but that has actually, that subject has really interested me. How do you, you know, live and what, what do you turn to for, you know, for, I don't want to say redemption, because there's no redemption. I hate any of those tropes of, like, cancer can be a teacher. There is nothing cancer has to teach me. that I don't want to learn in a different way. Yes, yes.

And also, like, people have this thing of like, cancer can be a gift. No, thank you. Yeah. You can, I'll pass. Yeah, yeah. But you know, but anything that makes you reflect upon how you act in the world, you know, I'm interested in. I'm interested in that.

I love, God, that movie Train Dreams. That was so fascinating. Oh, you know, it's such a beautiful and quiet. film about living through change. And, and, and I mean, I just, you know, I love that stuff. Yeah. You know, so I, so I, so I had to, you know, write about it. Did you, was there, because it sounds like, and I read that like the diagnosis was a

complete surprise. You went in for COVID, right? And then they're like, oh, by the way. I went in for a COVID test just because my kid had graduated college during COVID. Oh, this, I feel so bad. for all the kids who do that. I mean, it was like he went to Bard and he was studying music and they were supposed to have this final projects

and these like big moment of like launch out into the world and just live in the dream coming home to live with mom. Yeah. During COVID lockdown. Yeah. So awful. My son had to leave art school and then do art school on the computer. Oh my God.

Which, you know, it sort of defeats the purpose. Yeah, I feel like these young people, they have to make up for that now. Yeah. Like in, so, you know, that's why they're earning money later and it just things are, things are delayed, you know. So he comes home.

We're quarantining and I'm trying to do everything right because, because of him, actually. He had some underlying health conditions. He's doing great, but he's, you know, he had some issues. And so I'm trying to be really careful and we're quarantining in the house, just trying to do everything right at that moment. We go to have COVID tests, not because either of us are sick. I was like, you know, hiking every day, doing what a privileged person did during COVID, which was be at home and just try to like get in shape.

Yeah. Be healthy. I mean, I was such a privilege, right? So doing that. And we go to get tests at an urgent care. I mean, in Eagle Rock. Eagle Rock is like you're in the Californian sketch in S&L. Yeah.

You go on the 101 to the one. 34 to the 2 to the 210, it's five miles from my house. Yeah. I took 17 freeways. Yeah. And we just go to this little urgent care and I get talked into an x-ray because this doctor says, well, if you have a little cough, I said, well, I have a little cough, but who doesn't? Right.

I've already coughed twice, I think, since we've been talking. Exactly. I felt fine. But so he talked me into an x-ray and I was like, well, he's really cute. Maybe he has a thing for older women. Yeah. He wants to see my breasts from the inside. From the inside.

This is a very interesting kind of. Well, I was single at the time. And I'm like, I don't know. How do you meet anyone in COVID? Sure. You get an X-ray. Yeah. So it was completely a flirtation.

I mean, otherwise I would have said, no, thank you. Right. Get the X-ray. You're fine. We leave. We're heading home. My car breaks down. I mean, this is the zombie apocalypse.

Lips movie. My car breaks down on the side of the two, which if you know the two freeway, it's like the nothing freeway. There's like nobody in COVID driving. Which is why it's great. Which is why, yes. It's like any other day. It's fantastic. Yes. So there's no AAA is not coming and the phone rings and it's the urgent care doctor. He says, hi, are you alone? Like what? Yes. We're all ready to phone sex. We're already. We're already. ready to that. I'd say, I whisper to my kid, this is it. Yeah.

Oh, I got it. And he's like, are you sure you want to take this call in front of your kid? I'm like, oh, you bring it. Come on. Right. What could it be? Yeah. He's like, you have a concerning mass on your lung.

And, you know, it is one of those things where that moment is just like, yeah. The score comes in of the record. The scratch. Yeah, yeah. Every cliche, I mean, couldn't it have been just like a normal? I mean, there's no way to get bad news, but it was so out of the blue that it was like cinematic at that moment. And so memorable.

Can your son hear through the phone that? It's on a speaker phone. Oh, my God. So it's the parent nightmare. Yeah, you know, you don't want to get that kind of news in front of your kid. Of course. Yeah. And that started this whole diagnosis. I had no idea that there's actually an epidemic of young women, which I don't front into that category,

but of people being diagnosed, there's a high percentage of people who are diagnosed with lung cancer who are non-smokers. Wow. And in fact, the largest number of people who will be diagnosed this year are young women non-smokers. So is there anything you can? Particulate matter in the air is what science is telling us. So living in L.A. in New York? Just a great idea. Well, it's not just dirty air.

It's what's in the air these days that is, I mean, this is what they're saying is the number two cause after. It's environmental causes. Radon exposure can be one of them. But for many of us who have done the radon tests in our house, it's not that. What they have measured and what they're studying now is the particulate matter, it's not just pollution like we're used to dealing with, but like from why. wildfires because the wildfires take down houses with all those chemicals, all those things in there.

So it's really linked to climate change. This is, you know, all of the science has told us that it's climate change, it's particulate matter in the air. But, you know, the word hasn't really gotten out entirely, which is why I always try to at least say that, because I just didn't know that you could have a cough and it would be concerning for something really serious. Yeah. And, you know, we're trying to, in that, you know, cancer advocacy community campaign for scanning, just like people get breast cancer scans.

Sure. Everyone gets a mammogram at a certain age. People should be screened for lung cancer because it's so prevalent. And it would be really great if our government wasn't withdrawing from every compact in the world about reducing pollution in the end. I mean, you know, that would be great. Yeah. Or paying for health care. Or paying for health care. I mean, these issues are all so reliant. Yeah, yeah. You know.

But I, but, you know, and the question is, is will we be able to reverse that trend? Yeah. You know, but it's been really interesting in that, like, I have become much more educated in science. Uh-huh. And I have found it much more interesting than I've. would have expected. Yeah. And in some sense, philosophical and not, I don't mean like in a creepy way of, well, what I consider of like, God, you know, or or the universe wants you to have this or that. But, you know, when I'll talk to these scientists about like, what does this mean? What is, what is cancer? I didn't even know what it was. I thought it was like a virus that you, that you get from the outside world. But it's actually, and the words they use, it's so poetic. So when you have something wrong in your body,

right, and the immune system is set to realize that, it's because the immune system recognizes what's you and what's not you and tries to fight what's not you. But cancer is you. These are the words they use, you and not use. That's the words they use. That's really philosophical, deep and interesting. So when I think about that, I feel like if they had taught us science through language, I would have been a much better student. Yeah. And I want to get in that hot tub time machine and go back and learn things. I feel like I'm such an idiot about all these things.

But it's actually really interesting. And also, I've been really amazed at just as many strange encounters as I've had and everyone has had them in the medical establishment. Yeah. There's been so much kindness. Also, since I go and speak at these conferences now, giving like the patient perspective on these medications, because it's so new. They need this feedback. My God, these doctors, they will run you into the ground with their all night events. Oh, really? Yeah. I was in Vienna a couple years ago, and I was speaking at the international conference for the study of lung cancer. And I met one of these parties to raise money for, research and we're at a church or old venue in Vienna. It's midnight. We are dancing until midnight. And then I'm going to like hobble back over the cobblestone streets to my hotel and this group of doctors and scientists like, wait, there's this great bar where they have a record

collection. We're headed over there now. You have to come. I'm like, you know, I actually have this disease. And like, no, no, come on. It's this amazing place. It's open till full. I'm like, what the? And I said, okay, well, you know, I guess I should come because if anything happens to me, you know, I'm with you guys. They're like, oh, no, you're dead. We're so specialized. If you need surgery in the middle of the street, you're good.

But otherwise, you're just, you're just, we don't, we don't. We're specialized people. And I was like, oh my God, I love you. Yeah, yeah. Sure. And I, you know, I maybe was out to like 3 a.m. and then up at seven at this conference. And I just thought, this is like a,

it's kind of a little bit like a theater festival. Like there's this kind of enthusiasm about science and medicine, which you don't feel when you're at a hospital and you're on the other side of the table. You don't, all of those, you know, new techniques in medicine and in treating people is actually really exciting. But when you're the customer, when you're the person who's the patient, you don't get that.

You're just so vulnerable. So seeing this other side, it's like going, like, don't look at the little man behind the curtain. And yet the little man behind the curtain is actually fantastic in this case. I've been just so impressed by that world. And to be like, I'm a performer, you know, like one step above a sock puppet, basically. In my career, I spent most of my career as like replaceable by a sock bucket puppet. And then I, with these brilliant people, it's so humbling and also just fun to be like, I'm an idiot.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't feel any pretension and in a way that's affected my writing because I really, I'm not an expert in Greek mythology. I'm not an art historian. But in this last book, I allowed myself to be an appreciator. of art, an appreciator of mythology and literature and the way they've influenced me. And so there's a lot about seeing yourself and how you can see yourself through artwork. And there's various artwork that plays a role in this book.

It's just been so great for me to be able to use those kinds of art and beauty in the world to sort of help me along in these last few years without being an expert. Like, I don't, I'm not, and I allowed myself to write about it and not feel guilty that I probably get it all wrong. You're not an expert at, yeah, yeah. I used to feel more constrained in my writing that,

who am I to talk about this subject? Yes, exactly. But then I was like, well, I'll probably die before this comes out. I'm free from that. But you didn't, it's going to be out. I didn't, which is like I was a little, I'm prepared for that. I was actually, there was, okay, this is, see, this is where it gets so taboo to

say these things. Of course, I don't want to die. I'm not saying, like, I'm really anxious to die. But there is a certain part of your brain that when you are faced with this kind of thing says, like, well, at least I won't die poor if I won't outlive my money. I mean, this is the culture we live And I'm like, well, okay, if you tell me I've got a couple of years, I could have a really good time. Yeah. You know, and I had my oncologists say to me, now is the time to drink the fine wine. And I was like, well, that's like doctor's orders. Yeah, yeah.

You know, I'm not going against that. I think he meant cocaine. I, absolutely. But, you know, it's just like, it's so absurd. Andy, I'm sure you relate to this. Like people who haven't made a living making people laugh will say to me like, well, you know, like, is comedy a way of coping with things? I'm like, this is just how my brain works.

Yeah, yeah. It is a funny thing, right? People have a sort of a disconnect about that. Like I'm doing like it's another layer. Right. But no. Yeah, no, it's like asking a car. What's it like to run on gas?

Like, how the fuck should I? I just do, you know? This is just the way things occur to me. And also just maybe the way I notice the world. I mean, I'm an observational humor person. But this is how I'm wired, you know, is to see the ridiculous absurdity. It's not like it's a choice. Yeah.

And I do think when you are in these situations like I find myself in, I do feel like it is so absurd sometimes. Well, I mean, what are you going to do? I've been in situations where there have been comedy people that have passed away. Yeah. And it takes about 10 minutes before the jokes start. About 10 minutes before the, and they get really, really dark. Yeah. You know, and it's just, it's a processing way.

And it is, and it is just like, you know, we're machines that spit out jokes, you know, and that's just the way we were wired. And then we learn to get better at it. and now it's just the way to go. You know, that too soon thing, it's never too soon. It's like, you know, it's, for me, it's never too soon. It's too soon if you say it in public, but in private among the right people, there's no too soon. Right. Right.

But, you know, it's a funny thing because I worried a little bit about how people who were my peers, who are in treatment for cancer, would go for the humor, you know. So when I have published about it, it was very heartwarming to see that I would get contacted. Like if you read in the comments where, which I never used to do as a writer, like never read the comments like of what you, you know, when you publish. Yeah. But I did because I was looking to see, okay, are these people going to be offended?

So when I wrote in the New York Times about how when you get a cancer diagnosis, juices. Jucers are the Waterford Crystal Bowls for the newly diagnosed. People just send you juicers. And it's like they're sentencing you to juicing. Yes. Like, oh my God, like I have enough on my plate. Now I need to worry about child disposal. Don't have enough.

So I wrote and I just, you know, I just really make sort of merciless hay of, you know, the situation. People in treatment started posting people. pictures of abandoned jucers. I was like, yes. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

Because I don't want to offend anyone. Mm-hmm. Suffering is not funny. Mortality and death is funny. Yeah. You know, but like I'm not, and I'm not trying to make light of anyone's suffering. Right. It's the situations.

But also, too, it's your cancer. You can do whatever you want with it. Well, you know what I mean? You would think so. Yeah, yeah. No, there's some people to take, that. that, you know, the way that you and I make jokes, they take offense. Yes.

Like, that's the way their particular brain works. And there's not a lot you can do about them. I mean, granted, I understand, yeah, there is sensitivity, and you do want to have sensitivity. Yes. And you don't want to, you know, to go through life, just elbowing everyone out of the way is no way to do it. And, you know, and to say, you know, the notion of wokeness, like, yeah, sure. Sometimes there's too much, but mostly it's just like consideration of people's weak spots and things that hurt people. I mean, for me, the target of my humor is always me.

Yeah. It's not anyone else because I really, I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. But it's a funny thing because your mortality can be upsetting for other people because it reminds them of their mortality. Yes. But mostly, like the people that are in like my community. of people with cancer. Like, if I'll say, like, still scheduled to die from this, like, they don't get offended by that because we have had a lot of people die

since I've been diagnosed. It's like, hey, okay, this is, this is real. You know, this is part of our, the, what you have to get used to, you know, in that world. Yeah. But it's upsetting for other people who, you know, who aren't living with that. And I don't want to upset anyone else. But, you know, so I'm the target for that. Like, and, you know, I just think it's just funny in terms of like what you expect and what you do learn.

One of the things I have learned, like, you know, like my core values, what's important to me, remaining bitchy and judgmental. It turns out to be like my core value. Like, I'm not going to let cancer, you know, take that away from me. I'm good. Like, I feel really good. Like, one of my favorite things in life makes me feel good is like having. opinions about things I know nothing about. I'm not going to give that up.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody, but I really, really feel good about that. And I do want to challenge people in this book to think about that. Like to just sort of challenge these ideas. How do you feel about the concept of bravery with, you know, in the face of cancer? Like, do you feel brave? God, no. I mean, no, not at all. And, you know, I, so first of all, I just want to, like, I want to be really clear about this.

I, there's suffering and then there's, I mean, like, real physical suffering. Yes, being really, really sick. I do not know anything about that. Yeah. Because this has not been something I have lived through. Yeah. And I'm a. Do you forget sometimes that you have it?

Yeah. Since you're kind of asymptomatic? Well, the fun, that's. Sort of. Okay. So the bravery thing. and suffering. This is something I don't know about.

And so I don't want to take away anything from anyone who feels they need to embrace that like cancer warrior thing. I am not brave. I'm terrified of any pain and suffering. I don't want to have to be like this cancer warrior. Like this idea, when people say that, it sort of obligates you. is how a lot of people in treatment feel. It obligates you to this kind of performative wellness.

Like, I'm going to fight it. Like, I'm going to actually bitch and moan and complain. And I am going to be like a real person. Yeah. Like, I don't want to have to work that hard. Yeah. Like, that's actually the goal is to be real, you know. But I don't want to take anything from anyone who gets.

get some sort of power from feeling that they have to, you know, embrace this kind of language. I find it, it makes me feel like I'm failing all the time. I took a lot of inspiration from people who are much smarter than me, like my friend Barbara Aaron Reich, who wrote Nickelton Dimed, she was a good friend of mine, and she wrote a book called Bright-sided about how the cult of positivity demands that we act in this performative way. And it started, this book started for her when she was going through breast cancer treatment and people, like put her in the pink, in what she called like the pink ghetto, you know, like the pink scheddle.

Like, oh my God, like she's a, she's a world famous writer and she goes to like a support group for people with cancer. and they hand her like a coloring book with crayons. This will be good for you. Like you get put into these childlike situations. But she wrote me this note after I was diagnosed saying, oh my God, the best way to get through this is to bitch and complain. And I was like, okay, you know, like to be just, you know, a real person about this. And so, you know, I'm trying to give people permission with this book

and to not feel they have to be someone. warrior, you know, because I certainly feel like I, I am not that, you know. And Christopher Hitchens, another, you know, brilliant person. He wrote, I'm not a, he wrote against that idea. So he said, I'm not battling cancer. Cancer is battling me. Yeah. I spend more time in my life battling insurance companies. Right. So that is where I'm at. And you say like, do I forget about it? It is such a, This is where that thing is such a strange thing. I sometimes have moments where I actually think, have I hallucinated?

This is impossible. This can't be real because I don't feel it, although I have had an episode where I had to have for a little while have a portable oxygen machine. And that was really weird and upsetting in a way that was like, I didn't know if this was like the, normal. And I had the machine at home and I was having to do some like supplemental oxygen. And it was crushing of a moment of thinking, okay, is this the new normal? And then I took selfies

with it, which I did not post online because I wasn't like that. But I wanted to see like, what's my boyfriend going to see? I was like, can I make this look sexy? Yeah, yeah. Is there a way? Like I can style my hair with the, I mean, this is where I went to. Like, you know, it is. But I don't, forget about it ultimately because it actually, even though I don't have the physical symptoms, the requirements we make in this country of people who have chronic conditions mean that I am just covered in medical bills, even though I'm such a privileged person, you know? And I feel like, oh my God, that word is like a, but it's so true. You really become aware of that. Yeah. You know, when you're in one of these situations. But I mean, the kinds of

of maintenance for this kind of thing in terms of making sure I have the right medication and the insurance and the challenges they will give to the things that you have done, things that aren't covered, just that kind of management is like a full-time job. Yeah. And there are times when I am so tired, I just will fall asleep wherever I am. Yeah. It's like, but it's also like a superpower. Yeah. I can sleep on planes. So like I just always, I mean, I mean, that's just actually really true. I mean, I really am like, this is fantastic. An hour flight, I'm actually like, I'm out. So there's like, there's, you know, there's definitely been some advantages in the van. I slept in the van when I was riding bitch, which turns out to be the term for when you ride on the hump in between sandwiched

between people. I just fell asleep. Yeah. It was fantastic. Yeah. You know, when I wasn't on a drug run, trying to get shrooms for this. I'm the mother of a 28-year-old, and I'm like, buying drugs for my band. And I'm like, oh, God, you know. There's unexpected situations you can find yourself in. Well, the book is called The End of My Life is Killing Me, and it's coming out March 17th.

And thank you so much for coming in and sharing this with us. Oh, thank you so much. And there's a box of tissues next to me. that I've been like, I'm like, are we sure? I'm not going to get a bill here. Are you an in-network or an out-of-network provider? The first one is free. If you come back, that's when I charge you.

Okay, add double. Yes. Thanks, Andy. Well, Annabel Gerwitch, thank you so much for coming in and thank all of you for listening. And I'll be back next week with more of the three questions. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a team Coco production. It is produced by Sean Doherty and engineered by Rich Garcia.

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