The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Christina Tosi

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

Chef and author Christina Tosi joins Andy Richter to talk about birthday cake, working in restaurants, being a good leader, and her new picture book “Every Cake Has a Story”.

Hi everybody, it's Andy Richter here with another edition, another episode, another you know, mile marker in the three questions journey. mile marker in the three questions journey and i'm talking today uh with uh somebody i whose work uh i probably love too much uh christina tosi who is the founder of milk bar and i mean written many many cookbooks and you're here today because you have a new children's book out right and? First of all, hello. Hello. Hi. Let's get right to the plugs.

Get them right out of the top. Let's get it. Yeah. I just wrote this kid's book. It's called Every Cake Has a Story. I mean, they call it a kid's book. Actually, they call it a picture book, which I think is funny because there's pictures, but there's also words. because there's pictures, but there's also words.

But it's like, it's very much in the spirit of Milk Bar and in, I think what my life's work is to do, which is to remind us all to just take a moment, take a beat, have a bite, and just to remember not to take ourselves so seriously or more specifically in this book, just to like remind ourselves to show up for and bodyguard and protect and let like the kid in us out a little bit more in all of the like wonder um and curiosity that exists in the world and i suppose on on the kid

end to remind kids that like it's gonna be all right like, the you of you is the most important part of it. And you're going to be different than everyone else because you are different than everyone else. So like, let it out and make some good of it. Good. Yeah, no, it's a really, it's a really sweet book. I mean, it took, it took me a couple of days to get through it, but, uh, I'm kidding guys. It's like page six, right? It's a real. Exactly. Had to pull out the dictionary a few times. No, it's really and it's beautifully illustrated, too. What was that process?

How do you find an illustrator? How do they do? They just hook you up with somebody. I mean, they they the publisher gives you a list of illustrators and work that they think would be good for you. But it's kind of like you're getting matchmade, like your words or your vision is getting matchmade with somebody else's visuals. And it's kind of interesting to see what the publisher thinks you look like in illustrations and then what you think you look like in illustrations. It's like dating in a way that I don't ever know that I've been through. But our illustrator, Emily Falsley, is so incredibly talented. And in Kids Book Land,

you write this proposal to your publisher about the book that you want to write in Kids Book Land, only the proposal is longer than the actual book itself. And they just sort of keep going, no, fewer words, fewer words. And you actually then come to realize that the work that your incredible illustrating partner does is almost, you know, equal part weight of your words. Because, you know, he, she, they are doing so much of the work that your words aren't doing through their illustrations. I mean, so much can be said without ever saying a word. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of picture books that are just purely that just pictures.

It's, you know, it's, you know, I mean, that's what movies are or a certain kind of movies are ideally supposed to be. You know, you're supposed to show, not tell. And I imagine that's the same. Now, do you get some say into the illustrator or is it kind of just a range of marriage? Oh, yeah, totally. No, no, no, totally. Because they need the two of you to work together well too.

Because, I mean, in Every Cake Has a Story, it's like, no, no, no, I am the cake. It's not frosted on the sides. Or like, you know, make it wackier. It should be bigger. It should go all the way to the ceiling or whatever it is. And there's a fun, there's a fun collaboration that happens there, which is important. But I like the sort of like show, don't tell.

I think that's always what I'm trying, trying to tell the team that that's always what we're working towards as a team at Milk Bar or like feed people, right? Like we don't need to say anything. When you take a bite, the bite should do all the work. In picture book land, the picture should do almost all the work, et cetera. I mean, that's the part of it, right? Well, and the book looks like what I would,

it looks like if you smashed one of your cakes into a book. That's so it's perfect. It looks really, it's like colorful and beautiful and fun and just happy. Thank you. And like I said, I've been a fan of your work because I'm into food. I like, you know, fancy restaurants and good you and you kind of i think maybe spearheaded a movement in the world of sweets and to just make it simple like to just make it simple and make it because there's so many times when i go and you know shell out a bunch of money at a restaurant and

then dessert comes and it's all these precious little things that would make better jewelry than they would an actual dessert you know when it's like i want to if you say chocolate cake give me a slice of chocolate cake like my aunt made you know don't mess with me yeah don't mess with my heart like that just give me some fucking pie that tastes like blueberries you know i'm telling you So I went to like culinary school to be a professionally trained pastry chef. So I have, as I'm sure you do, a fine appreciation for the beauty that happens at these courses after the savory courses

of a fine dining restaurant. But I also have a theory. And my theory is that we can't call those courses and a slice of your aunt's chocolate cake, they can't both be called dessert, right? Like there is this beautiful thing that happens at fine dining restaurants

when it's time to move from savory things into sweet things. And it is beautiful in its own work of art thing, but it doesn't do the thing gutturally that that slice of chocolate cake does. And I'm always like, give me those courses. And then on my way out, like, give me a pair of my pajamas that I can put on in your bathroom because that's really what I'm trying to sport after a gorgeous meal. And then either send me with it or have it at my doorstep or have it arrive the second

I get home already dressed in my pajamas. Like, put a slice of chocolate cake on my pillow because that's my friend. That's the final kiss off, right? Like that is dessert. That's both like the peak and the end of the meal for me. And that's where I think that's where I'd like fine dining to go. But I worked in fine dining for years before I opened Milk Bar. But I worked in fine dining for years before I opened Milk Bar. And it was really that the reckoning or my too, because the chocolate cake that my aunt made that and I mean, and your stuff kind of has this, too.

It's it's imperfect. And I guess I I got her recipe for her chocolate cake and and my kids loved it. Like, you know, my it was when she would come she'd bring it for my kids and it's just basically it's a milk chocolate sheet cake with a with a i don't know what you call it but like a frosting that you cook on the stove you know it's like a corn syrup and then you whisk it over a period of time and what i i was not getting right was i realized that she was too impatient to whisk the the frosting the full like hour that you're supposed to come back every 10 minutes and whisk it. She didn't have time for that.

Milk chocolate bar on your suitcase. She put it on there because it's like you whip more air into it. But there was something about hers. It was almost like a glaze. And it took me a while to realize. Oh, yeah. And then to just factor her personality into it, she's not waiting to eat that cake.

No way. Yeah, she's got to get right to that cake. I love it. I mean, I think there is, that's like the humanity of indulging, right? Where it's like when you're indulging, you want to be naughty. And I think that there's something so human

about the naughtiness of indulging that you don't want to feel, you don't want to feel like you're at a beautiful art museum when you're being naughty and indulging that you don't want to feel you don't want to feel like you're at a beautiful art museum when you're being naughty and indulging and so there is an imperfection that i think is like the secret ingredient of any great indulgent dessert is it makes you feel a little human that you're gonna like mess it up and like get it on your cheeks like you're gonna you're gonna you definitely drop in the chocolate cake and the sort of like goopy frosting on your white jeans or whatever it is. And you're not going to feel bad about it.

And there's it's like there's a permissibility to the imperfection of dessert if you do it just right. Right. And you're also going to have eaten too much of the batter before it's cooked. Yeah. Thank you. Because I mean, yeah, it's like, oh, raw egg? Yeah, come on. I've had much worse than raw egg. Also, you know, it's usually not raw egg that takes people down.

It's unheat treated flour. You know, whenever someone gets sick, it is rarely the egg. The egg has gotten all the bad rap and it's actually the flour. Anyways, this is like spoken like two people who you know are going, there's not like, let's, let's get real when we're making cookies in my household or your household, there's like

two cookies that make it into the oven. Everything else. I don't know what happened to it. I blacked out and woke up. Yeah. Now you grew up in a house with people baking, right? And was it baking, mostly baking or was it also just the full menu? Yeah, I mean, it was cooking too, but it was more like Midwestern vibes, like casseroles, canning and jarring. I know I read about it. I'm from Ohio. Ohio, right, right. But then I spent like my, I guess, school years in Virginia by folks that are from Ohio through and through. So a lot of that like Midwestern sensibility.

But I mean, we never ate out at restaurants. I mean, food wasn't the scene that it is now anyways, but we always cooked, you know, we cooked meals because that was just our reality. Like the closest restaurant to either one of my, or to my grandma's house was like, if you went to a restaurant, out to a restaurant, you were going to Wendy's.

And it was like a 25 minute drive. And it was a treat when you got it. But savory food was sustenance. I mean, joyful, but sustenance. But where we really got involved was in baking. And it was less because it wasn't like a dessert course after every dinner, but it was more like baked

goods as a way for these like sweet grandmas and my mom and my aunts to like, you know, get out the Ziploc baggies and dole them out and bring them to work or to school or to neighbors or to the nursing home or what have you. And so we always had a place for baked goods to go. And so we just we baked often. And they were the kind of like, you know, mother figures, matriarchs that were like, yeah, if you want my attention, you can come stand in the kitchen with me. And that's kind of just how I got going into baking. Yeah, when I was that was my folks divorced when I was four and we moved back in with my mom's parents and, you know, my mom was working and my grandfather was kind of old and he, you know, so he was not like a real vibrant presence in my because he was like 18 years older than my grandmother. Oh, wow. Okay. But she was, she was amazing. She was just like, she, you know, like she'd make, you know, like you can't ever replicate just her French toast. And it was, you know, it was peppered farm, right?

White bread, eggs and sugar. And that was it. And vanilla, but you just can't get it right. And it's just because she stood there in front of a, of a griddle for a thousand hours making French toast. So she got really, really good at it. She goes really good. And it's the same thing.

I spent my childhood in the kitchen with her and it's still kind of like, it's still my favorite place. It's still like, you know, and it was definitely a matriarchy. You know, I definitely was raised by women. I'm kind of more comfortable around women than I am around men. Like when, you know, at a house party, I'm like, I'll go in the kitchen with the women. Whoever's in the kitchen. Yeah.

Much better conversation than whoever's watching the big game, you know. It's true. I'm the person that's always at someone's house i'm like put me in the kitchen just give me something to do i'll wash your dishes right exactly like the kitchen is my safe space it's like where you're always welcome no matter what was going on in life is so true but also to the french toast thing like one of the reasons that we like that our menu is what it is at milk bar, that we don't make a chocolate chip cookie, we make a cornflake chocolate chip marshmallow cookie,

is because your French toast grandma thing is my grandma's equivalent is her oatmeal cookie. Or it's like, I could stand literally side by side with her using the same measuring cups, using the same ingredients. And I swear, her cookies were always so much better than mine. And so my philosophy was always like, yo, we would never put French toast on the menu. We would never put oatmeal cookies on the menu because I would not dare touch your friend, your grandma's French toast or my grandma's oatmeal cookies.

But we would make like a French toast layer cake or we would make an oatmeal cookie, you know, ice cream flavor or something that like celebrates it without i would never i'm not trying to go head to head with anyone's grandma or aunt or whatever your favorite something is i just want to sell acknowledge it celebrate it and bring those like human indulgent vibes yeah into the world with you know broader brushstrokes yeah the same aesthetic but with a surprise you know like because know, because it is like a riff. Yeah. So many of your things are like, you know, like the birthday cake. Like to me, the thing that blows my mind is just that confetti birthday cake.

And there's like there's a little bakery here in Burbank. I live in Burbank, California. There's a little bakery called Martino's. And they make these they're famous for these little square tea cakes and they're just it's like a little cupcake but it's not it's almost kind of has like a drier texture and it's just got this yellow glaze and it is just the most perfect kind of salty kind you know kind of sweet kind of thing but they're making a confetti birthday cake now. And that's you. You know, you did that. Yeah. So, you know.

But that was just my reality of like, I'm just trying to figure out how to go left of center from my childhood memory, which was like box. My mom was a working mom. So it's like that box funfetti cake with the tub of funfetti frosting like that is still on my birthday. That is the thing that I want on my birthday. I want to be i want to be i want everyone to shh i just want to do my thing but i definitely want to eat that out of out of a 9 by 13 pan with a fork and zero judgment do you still buy the mix for your birthday or do you make it so i have um you have your agreement. Well, no, hilariously enough, I don't want our birthday.

I get our birthday cake at Milk Bar every other day of the year, 364. So on my 365th day, I have an agreement with my best friend who is actually, actually we became like best friends because of Milk Bar. She was my opening sous chef.

She and I, my birthday's one day, her birthday is the day after. And so we both make each other the fun. We have an agreement and I, she lives in California. So I ship it from New York to California. The day before her birthday, she ships it to me. And we know, cause also when you're a pastry chef, no one makes you birthday cake.

Someone goes, oh, and you're like, I'm still a human. I still need my cake but anyways one one day a year my favorite i still and i will request it and it's there's a wedding cake bakery here in uh in la that hansen's that's been there for a gazillion years oh yeah or honestly and it's i i it's no secret. Costco sheet cake. Holy shit. I don't hate on a sheet cake, man. I don't hate on a sheet cake. They feed the masses and they show up for celebrations far and wide. But you want to know what? I'm a I'm a corner person when it when it's a sheet cake. I always go, may I please have a corner because you get

extra frosting because they cover the sides. And like, I've already done the math there, my friend, give me, may I please have a corner? Yeah. Now when you were a kid, did you, were you thinking that this, I mean, were you setting out to be a cook of any kind or? No, I had no clue. I, I didn't realize that I was was that I had gravitated to the kitchen so much, though. It sounds like we're quite similar in that way. It was like that's where I spent all my free time. But I was always raised to like, you're going to go to college because my parents were like first gen college goers and they had saved up enough money to like help get us that start. And the only agreement was like, you can do whatever you want to do in life, but you have

to go and get a college education because if you fall back, if you have nothing else to fall back on, we want you to fall back on that. And my parents are like super passionate about what they do for a living. Most passionate accountant, most passionate agricultural economist.

I think they were hoping that I'd be like the most passionate engineer or the most passionate, you know, actuary. Yeah, exactly. But I so they were a little like, oh, is that really what you want to do for a living? But I graduated from college and on the eve of graduation, I was like, oh, I don't think I want. These aren't things that I want to do every day for the rest of my life to make a living. What did you study?

Math, applied mathematics and the Italian language, which i was like oh maybe i'll go be a translator and my mom was like really like uh and instead i decided to speak italian in your house my father does my father does uh but i i kind of just had a moment where i was like you know it would be really cool to do for the rest of my life like you know it would really make me happy is to work in a kitchen is to make dessert is to do the thing that I've actually been doing my whole life every day. Um, and figure out how to get paid for it. Turns out you don't make a lot of money as a cook. And it's pretty, it's, you know, it's epic grunt work, but, uh, it's worth it. It's worth it. Yeah. No, I, um, I mean, I love restaurants, but I've, I waited tables and so I've been in

a kitchen. So I know like, Oh no, this is, you know, this is you are, your life is in there and you're burned and you're, you know, like underpaid and you're there all the time, you know? Yeah. You have to really love it. You have to love it when no one's looking, you can't love it because of the paycheck. Cause there's not really anything there. I love it when no one's looking. You can't love it because of the paycheck because there's not really anything there. And you, it feels like, the only way I can describe it is like,

if it feeds you and you'll know that it's feeding you if it feeds you, like there's, it's undeniable. You love the energy. You love the hustle. You love the grit. You love sort of like not really being seen. You love that, that like relative anonymity of it. And you love that, like, you don't really have to speak. The food does all the talking. It's the, it's the like feed.

Don't tell. That's it. Does the repetition get to you or is that, is there something? No, interestingly enough, interestingly enough. And I love the other side of like the rule breaking and like doing it different every time and asking what if, but on your way up, you have to also really be in love with the repetition of the pursuit. But in a beautiful way, the repetition becomes almost meditative or the repetition, seeming repetition is actually you figuring out like, how can I peel this case of butternut squash faster than I did the last time, right? Like what if, why does this apple taste a little bit different than the last case of apples that I broke down? What did I do different in this frosting? What if I whip it 30 seconds more?

Does it become fluffier, et cetera, et cetera? Like, you become almost more fine-tuned to the intricacy of it in the repetition, and it makes you better. I mean, it's your grandma and her French toast, right? Like, the repetition is what actually made you so good. And I think that's actually like the short sighted view of young cooks on their way up. They think like, oh, I've learned how to do this. So why would I do it? You know, a hundred, a thousand, a million more times because you actually get better at it. And so

there's the spirit of like, it's a rush, rush world, but also the repetition part, you can't rush because that's actually where you hone your skills. Well, now you went to Italy after school, right? Yeah. And to try and pursue the translating. Well, I guess, you know what? I studied. I figured out I am. I'm really good at learning what the rules are and then figuring out how to, like, bend them. So my parents are like, got to go to college.

And I was like, great, I got to go to college. But I figured out how to take all of my courses while living abroad. So I studied abroad and then I figured out how to shift it into ways that made me feel like I wasn't going to college in Virginia, but instead going to college in Italy, even though that wasn't part of the program. So I spent a good amount of time in Florence, Italy. My dad's side of the family is all from Northern Italy, but I spent a lot of time in Florence because I could get all of my credits to transfer. And so I did less cooking there

and did a lot more eating, specifically gelato. Though every time I would try to bake a cake, the beauty of Italian cuisine from a dessert standpoint is like, dude, these little packets of confectioner's sugar because they only use it to dust their stuff. And the woman at the store would be like, who is this crazy person and why is she buying me out of all my substituting this for some cocaine shipment or something? I mean, who knows what she thought I was a little packets of white powder. She's like, honey, you know, that's sugar, right? I don't even know. Did so this this question of, you know, when you talk about eating gelato and eating cake, how do you not get as big as a house? I mean, that's a basic that I want to ask everyone that makes pastries.

I mean, well, I think, first of all, we're like making anything. It's like, it's physical, right? Like, especially at milk bar, we sort of say like when you first joined milk bar, like you have a gym membership because you're carrying like 50 pound bags of flour and sugar. Our kitchen is massive. So your, your, your steps in a day or whatever that is, is huge. But also, I just love to be on my feet. I'm a little bit of like, I like to bounce around. I like to be active. The idea of like sitting down for more than an hour is, is hard for me. I like to be on my feet and be around. Um, and I don't know, I guess at some point, I mean, it's, I, I eat plenty of the dessert. I was going to say like, you don't eat that much of what you're making, but's not actually true i eat a ton of dessert um i guess

i just like to be on my feet and be around but it's a physical i mean it's a physical thing like you when you look at people that work in kitchens they're usually like built almost like you're like do you work in a kitchen and go to the gym at like 2 a.m and the answer is usually no i just work in a kitchen you're sweating it every day. You're moving every day. But I also think you then have a different. From a frying pan. Yeah, yeah.

But then you also have like a different relationship with food, too, because you're in it making it every day. And so your eating schedule becomes hysterically erratic because you're cooking and making things for other people during their normal hours. So you're doing your thing in the off hours. I don't know. It's a beautiful little like ecosystem and underbelly. Yeah. Part of it is very physical. It also I mean, in a way now that, you know, I asked the question, but it does make sense because it does. I mean, I've experienced it myself.

But, you know, the classic thing that your mom says after Thanksgiving dinner is like, I didn't need anything today. You know, like I just was here cooking all day and it just occurred to me, I haven't eaten anything, you know? That's it. And like, because it feeds you in this way, cause you love to do it. It's, it's a very, it's a very interesting, hilarious, beautiful thing. But for me, I'm like my days off. I'm usually like with my with my guy. I'm like, I want a big, juicy cheeseburger. I you know what I mean? Like I have my whole food day planned out and I'm like, I don't want to be bothered, you know, like feed me and then just leave me. Were you guys one of those talking about dinner while eating lunch families? I'm talking about it. I'm talking about it. It's pillow talk at night the night before.

It's when I say, so what like what do you got going on tomorrow? It's more like what are we getting into in the food space? Yeah. What's in the fridge? Yeah. A hundred percent. Like how dirty are we going to make our dirty dessert secret? You know what I mean?

Like how are we getting after it and how do we space it out enough so that we can justify as many meals as possible? Yeah. Um, so when you decide, like, I'm going to do this, where are you back in the States when you do that? Or was it? Yeah. I'm back in the States, but I'm a, I'm, I have an intensity to like, when I have an intensity to like when I have an answer, I'm usually, when I have an idea or an answer, I'm usually pretty, I'm intense. I'm impatient about it and I'm ready to go. Like when I go, we just put this dessert on the menu at Milk Bar, the apple cider donut layer cake.

When I realized that I thought our fall menu had to have an apple cider donut reimagined as a layer cake. We have this brainstorming session. We all throw out ideas. When I hear the one that I think is, that's the one. And I'm like, okay, everyone, this is all we're going to think about. We're going to do version and version and version and version. And then I go all in.

It was the same thing. So I got back to the States, got my diploma, was like, I don't want to be a mathematician. I want to actually go into the kitchen. Then I was like, okay, bye, you know, packed up my bags, got on a Chinatown bus, moved to New York, found an apartment, like did all the things quick, quick, quick, quick. And then I was off and I was, my head was, was, you know, I had the blinders on and maybe I still have the blinders on. So you got a job in a kitchen right away. Yeah, I went to culinary school by day and I worked in restaurants by night. And I was a little bit like, well, now I'm behind because

I had to go to college and now I'm behind. Now there's like, you know, French children when they decide they want to be chefs, they're getting their they're they're getting their chops in kitchens at like 12, 13, 14. I'm like, you know, some 19, 20 or I'm like, I got to get going, man. I'm out of time. And I just I went for it heads down. I worked in a bunch of different restaurants, fine dining restaurants, trying to like both hone my craft. And then you have to hone your craft. You have to get the education, hone my craft. And then you have to hone your craft. You have to get the education, hone your craft.

And it's not until you go through these years of doing these things that you then start to figure out what your voice is. Because so much of it is learning what it is, then learning how to execute someone else's vision. You don't actually know what your vision is until you go through these steps and processes. And I think that's another part of like, you can be intense and be in a hurry to

get there, but you have to acknowledge that it's a process and it takes a lot of time. Yeah. There's, I mean, kitchens, especially a fine dining kitchens have been, they're always portrayed as like, like a caste system, almost like there's this hierarchy. It's a hierarchy for sure. And when you when you get into that, I mean, what how are you looking for that? Is it does it surprise you? And I mean, is it everything that we think it is? Is there really some, you know, angry guy with an accent always yelling at people that they didn't feel the potatoes? It depends on where you work. I mean, also, I'm probably aging myself. This is like 20 years ago for me now but um it was definitely that for me i think that a lot

has changed in our out out loud in and and by and large in how we treat one another and how we need to be more thoughtful and are more thoughtful about it. But definitely back then it was like a hundred percent. I mean, the number of times that I got, you know, that I got screamed at or this or that, like it, it was, it's a little bit of this militaristic, like, you know, stripping you down to build you back up approach. It's definitely a caste system. I, I did, I both kind of expected it and was humbled by, or, you know, was sort of like quieted by it. But I also, in an interesting way, loved the pursuit of it. I loved having to work my way up from the top because it was, or work my way up from the bottom to the top because it was this clear hierarchy, right? You have to take one step to get to the next step, two, two, two.

There's a lot of stuff that's not right about it, but I loved the hustle of it. I loved like, I'll tell you what, by and large in a kitchen, you know, when you've done a good job and you definitely know when you've done a bad job, there's not an in-between, but you also learn enough about yourself to also know that you can't seek someone else's approval. You have to know also within yourself, because there's plenty of other mind games and stuff like that. At least in the kitchens of your, kitchens these days,

I mean, the milk bar kitchen is not that. But I think there is a thoughtful nature to what it takes to learn your way up into the top that's important. But working in a kitchen, I mean, it's still hard work. It's still hard work. The margins aren't huge.

So how you can provide people with quality of living and killer benefits and making it still a really compelling, beautiful, delicious craft for people to fall in love with are things that I think about running Milk Bar, acknowledging that my reality on my way up was wildly different. Yeah.

But sometimes you got to take the bad experiences. You learn, you learn as much from the bad experiences as you do from the good experiences. Yeah. Well, and I always have noticed, you know, it's because it is like, it's a kind of hazing and there are so many different areas where you go through a kind of hazing and you can take that where like you can perpetuate that cycle or you can decide that was shitty. I hated that. I would have worked a lot harder if you'd been nice to me. You know, it's so true.

Yeah, I sort of say like even before I worked in kitchens, my first job was at a bed, bath and beyond folding towels because I don't know. I just thought that that would be a fun thing to learn uh and uh my first lesson like in leadership honestly was every time the store would close down and the manager would sort of come on the loudspeaker and be like okay we're closed like fold the towels so we can all leave and he would just sit up there and like watch us fold towels and he'd be like are? And it's like, dude, if we all do this together, we can get it done. You know, like just the sort of first lesson of like one day, if I'm ever in charge of someone, I'm going to do everything I can to make them not feel that way. Cause it's such a basic human

thing. Uh, and then you learn a lot more of that in kitchens as well. You, you take from the good, you take from the bad for sure. You use the word militaristic and that's always something that struck me. This yes, chef, no chef kind of, you know, like and that kind of that kind of heavy, constant reminder of different levels of status. It doesn't exist in a lot of workplaces. Like nobody's saying yes, mechanic, no mechanic, you know? And I mean, you know, I mean, I guess maybe like in a, in an operating room, you know, like, but even then, you know, but even then it doesn't seem as like, as much as it, you

know, from what we think of as like the culture of this workplace. And, and why do you think it is? Why do you think that kitchens got to be so I mean, especially squash your ego and then you get to the top and you're known for having a gigantic ego. Like it's just there's so many weird. Well, that but yeah, that part of it is strange. I mean, I would say by and large, it's because talk is cheap in a kitchen, right? Like if you're working in a restaurant kitchen, people are waiting for their dishes, right? And so it's not about being

right or being wrong. It's about getting great food out on time. And it is the sort of like, it's cooking, it's, it's cooking, not, not it's, it's, it's letting the food do the work. It's the, it's the, you know, not saying, but instead doing. It's not talking. It's instead feeding. And so it's a little bit of that, like, we don't have time for a conversation. And that does become, that can become kind of suffocating because then nothing really gets resolved. It's sort of like, I'm right, you're wrong, implied I'm right, you're wrong.

Let's go out the door. Where there's not room for improvement or constant improvement, if that's the case, but you are right, but it's also because, I mean, food is perishable, it's delicious, you know, there is a peak when it is its most delicious, and there's not time or space for anything else, but if you think about like an operating room, I imagine it's the same thing of like, yes, yes, doctor, no, doctor, yes, no, no, you're Roger, that sort of thing. And same thing in the military, at least if you're at war in battle, right? Like it's it's there's an urgency to it.

And it's not about language. It's about action. Yeah. But it is kind of interesting that that the food, you know, certain parts of the food world are like that. But it teaches you how to be rigid and it teaches you a certain. Yeah. It teaches you how to stand straight in a certain way that that's it's interesting and different. And it forces you to think about your craft in a certain way. For sure.

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think. I mean, that makes sense that it's because there's you're in a pressure cooker. You're you're on the time. You know, there's time that it's because you're in a pressure cooker. You're on a time. There's time and it's all put up or shut up. There's no time for your issues. There's just make the fucking salad and get the salad out there. Time is precious.

That's it. Yeah. And I mean, when I waited tables and I waited tables. Oh, did you get yelled at? Casa Lupita in Naperville, Illinois. I mean, not really that. Well, there were line cooks that were not very friendly. And you just learned.

They were nice to you. Yeah. And you learned which ones are nice. But it's like you learn anything. Don't fuck with that guy. Be nice to that guy. Like, bring that guy a margarita. And then you'll be sad with him.

You learn how to get that guy on your side. Right. You learn so much working in a restaurant from a human standpoint, like human nature, both in your co-workers and in how you, you know, wait tables. And I mean, you're you're everyone's bringing a different energy to the restaurant and you've got to figure out how to survive it all and how to thrive. to the restaurant and you got to figure out how to survive it all and how to thrive i i uh it's also too i think it's funny to me because we talk about we're talking about uh the military uh an operating room and the kitchen and those you know because i can't i mean offhand i can't think of another one where it's like there's this time crunch but like like one is a war. One is, one is literally life or death usually. And one is getting food out. And that was when I, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. And when I worked in a restaurant, like I would have moments, you know, where I was slammed and I had

four, you know, five tables and everything came up at once. And I, and I was stressed. And then I would, I'd have these moments where I realized the most important thing in my world right now is getting that guy who's kind of a dick to me, getting him his iced tea. That's the most important thing in my life right now. And I would just be like so stunned at how screwed up that was, but how unavoidable it was it's just a fact i can't you ever have um like server nightmares where you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like i forgot to bring that guy as i for years afterwards for years afterwards they you know uh tray carrying trays with like you know like because it was it was casa lupita like you know sizzling

fajitas and hot enchiladas and big you know those big heavy crockery plates right next to your ear you know i had neck burns you know from just holding enchiladas on my on my shoulder and i actually i actually still i you can't hear it now but I have a click in my wrist that developed over holding up big tray. And I mean, like big trays with like, you know, eight or nine entrees on it and carrying it out. And I got this click in my wrist that has continued to this day from waiting tables. Yeah. Casa Lupita is just waiting. It's just waiting for you to file your class action lawsuit. But I do think it's also interesting. I think it doesn't exist anymore.

If we talk about all these things, right? There's another piece of it too that's like, man, I hope anyone that has never worked in a restaurant that's listening is like, man, you know what? Maybe I should take it a little easy on the people that are working in the restaurant because it is a thankless job and there's a lot to navigate in it. And like maybe

that iced tea, maybe you can wait another minute or maybe you could be like, Hey bud, right. When you get them at, you know what I mean? We bring, we put so much of our like energy and emotion onto the people that serve us in restaurants in ways that's not always or often incredibly favorable to them. I say this, I worked in, I worked in the front of house of a restaurant as well on my way up because I wanted to, I wanted to understand all the different facets of it, which allows you to be a better person in the back of house if you understand what the people in the front of house is, but it's basically just trying to get everyone to move to center. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I'll just be a little lighter with each other. One of the I mean, one of the things that I you know, that makes me like the kind of professional I am in my field is that I loaded trucks and I got people coffee and I coiled cable and I, you know, I did all because I went to film school and I was an intern and then I was a production assistant. And I know so many actors that I work with. And it's been a pet peeve of mine throughout my career where people are like, what's taking so fucking long? And it's like, well, you wouldn't know, would you? Because all you know is getting here, sitting in a chair and having people paint your face and then go sit in your own trailer and wait.

Like that's that's that's the extent of your knowledge of how this works dude it is so true to the extent too that i don't know if you're like this i did not go to film school but i i understand enough about the inner workings of things and seeing how many people are on you know pull up to work on a lot whenever i have to do do something like that, I'm always like, can I help? Like, do you want to give me another job before I have to do the other job? Because like, I'm in it. Like, how else do you say to someone like I'm in it with, can I coil that cable for you? And they're just like, you're not allowed to touch the cable. I'm like, you know what I mean?

Like they've been all these rules. It's a union thing. Yeah, exactly. But there is a thing of just like, I get you i can get i can get you iced tea or i can make my own iced tea i don't you know what i mean it is funny i almost always unless they say that i can't i get my own food because i just i i don't want someone waiting on me i want to you know and it's also it's like that process of choosing it. And I mean, that's one of the biggest fun things about working on a set is like, there's a little kitchen and a truck and they'll make me whatever I want.

There's a little menu that I can choose from and I can take however long I want to do my little modifications. Absolutely. Yeah. when you're in these fine dining kitchens i mean when do you start to when does the dissatisfaction with that kind of career track set in and how does it manifest itself that's a good question. and then you have to do that repetitively. There is a point where you get a sense of like, I either have hit a ceiling or I'm not learning. I've sort of plateaued in my learning.

And then you typically sort of say, okay, where else do I want to learn? Who else is doing something cool in food that I want to learn from? What's my next commitment? That's typically how it went for me. And then at some point along the way, you sort of go like, I'm ready to execute on my own food. But everyone's a little different. I mean, nowadays with restaurants and food, like it's shapeshifted and changed so much that a lot

of times it's what's right for your life and how do you balance all of those things? A lot of times, though, I think it's just like, what kind of cuisine do you want to learn how to make? And how do you get in there and work your way around it and work your way up and so on? But I mean, some people work in the same restaurant for decades and work for an organization forever. And some people work months or weeks until they sort of say, this is not for me. But I don't know, everyone's a little different. Everyone deals with the pressure of working in a restaurant differently. It seems like most of the chefs that, you know, get to be known, you know, that I that

you know, and I mean, it's all, you know, so much. And it's so funny now that so much of being a successful chef is like getting on TV, which is like, it's weird, but you got into it because you want to feed people. And now all of a sudden who know? Yeah. Right. Right. And you got to learn how to be on camera, which is a totally different, weird skill, you know, that you just, that nobody can teach you. You got to learn it, but, or have a knack for it to begin with. Um, but it does seem like so many of the, of the chefs that I, that I, you know, the notable chefs that I know did a little stint here, a little stint there, a little stint here, a little stint there. Like there's no, there's no real percentage in it to them to kind of learn in one place. And is that generally true? I mean, is there many people, you know, that start working, you know, at, you know, I think the resume building is really important.

Right. You want to sort of say that I've worked for I've worked under this chef, this chef, this chef, or I've worked in these three, four or five great kitchens. And part of that is resume. And also, honestly, part of it is you go to culinary, let's say you go to culinary school, they're going to teach you how to make a genoise and how to make a creme anglaise and, and, and, and. But honestly, every kitchen you go into and every chef that you work under has a different approach to how to make a cake or how to make, how to roast a chicken or how to poach a lobster. And so you're also working for the chefs because you're, you want to learn their tips and tricks like, like, like face to face.

That's what you want to learn. And that's what you want to experience. I mean, it comes down to like the most intricate, like they use blue tape in this kitchen. And instead of like ripping it off to label the quart container, you cut it with scissors. Only this type of scissors you use are these specific shears. And you only use a Sharpie that is this, you know, that is this size tip and so on and so forth. And they're sort of like glitter. They're like insider moments that make you feel like you're part of this club, this group, this organization in the know.

And it sets you up for presumably future success because you they imprint you that like organization that culture how they do anything imprints you and that makes you better and better positioned into the future to run your own team kitchen restaurant bakery whatever it is tell me and then it's brag on it and then honestly it's bragging rights you've survived like it's as much that as it is tell me and then it's brag on it and then honestly it's bragging rights you've survived like it's as much that as it is like you've survived that kitchen you've proven that you have the guts and the grit to survive and thrive and that's really when you've taken off i imagine on that resume too if it's like oh god she worked for that guy for 14 that's a big deal holy moly she must be able to take anything you know that's a bit like that's a big deal you know what i mean

that you like that you have it in you the sort of like staying power of like staying on the line i mean a lot of these places you're working you know five six seven i mean this is all restaurant talk not necessarily bakery talk but like you're working crazy hours and crazy days. And it's like, well, that that person, that person's got like a serious backbone. Yeah. Yeah. It goes a long way. Tell me how you started working for David Chang. So I started working for Dave. I was working for another restaurant and they needed help with these sort of like, they're called HACCP plans, they're hazard analysis plans.

But I basically got LinkedIn with Dave because he needed help. And we realized really quickly that our moms live like a mile and a half apart from each other in Virginia. And we had, we both had this really interesting, went to culinary school, worked in fine dining, went to culinary school, worked in fine dining, but like longed for finding like great food through a more like democratic and casual lens. And he had just opened the Momofuku's and we kind of just hit it off and realized that I was like, I want to work for you. Like you, you seem to have the same sensibilities. You're intense. You're this, you're that. Through the culinary lens that I want to be through the pastry lens. And so I started working for him

and helping him build Momofuku. He knew I had like dessert experience. So one day he was like, this is just a waste of all of our time. Like just start making dessert for the restaurants. I started making desserts for the restaurants and eventually a space next to one of the restaurants. I started making desserts for the restaurants and eventually a space next to one of the restaurants became available. And he was like, this is also a complete waste of time.

You're not a restaurant pastry chef. I know that what you really want to do is just democratize baked goods and do it on your terms. And so he helped me take out the lease for Milk Bar, the first lease for Milk Bar and really helped of like helped support me as I was as I was getting things going and taking off. And still to this day is like, you know, one of my greatest compatriots. And when I need advice or what have you, call him up and he's like, Tos, what's going on? Yeah, it's good to have someone help you. That's I mean, that's like there are so many success stories that I know of. And it's kind of you know, it was like a philosophical bond or just, you know, a personal, like, I like this person, especially, you know,

the similarity between show business and, and television and what you guys do is you're going to spend a lot of time with this person. So you better like them, you know, you better. Yeah. It's the sort of like, no one does it alone. And in the And in the food space, you have to have someone that like gets like the best work you can do if you're thinking about that with someone in the food space is go out and eat with them. Like, do you eat the same way? Do you share the same like dirty dessert secrets? Do you both like a juicy hamburger or you know what I mean? Like trading the food stories of recommendations

and stuff back and forth is the best way to know whether you all see eye to eye on things. Yeah. Now you I mean, you have these ideas about a milk bar opens and like how long do you think it takes before it kind of where you would consider it really catching on? Is it is it right at the start or does it take a year i mean i guess what do they say about like actors in hollywood like every overnight sensation is 10 years in the making whatever like every day felt like we had made it right like day one we opened november 15 2008 there was a line out the door around the corner i was like what are these people waiting in line for like what in the world or they don't even know what their way is going on. And every day has been a roller coaster, but every day we find

different moments of that, right. Of like people showed up and showed out for us on day one. People had nice things to say about us and told their friends or wrote about it or put it in print or what have you. And we have just been like our success and our growth has largely been in part of people that want to champion us, that get what we're trying to do and want to champion and celebrate and support us along the way. And like, honestly, you're nothing without that. Like you need that. As much as you need that in a partner, you need that in the people that you're doing the work for or in support of as well.

When do you like. You know, you have ideas about food, you have ideas about aesthetics, you have ideas about flavor. Like, when do you have to really start becoming a marketer and really thinking? It's a good question. You know, like where I'm sure that now. really thinking in terms of, you know, like where I'm sure now, you know, there's no at the size where it's like, we have a creative marketing press team of like 20 something people and you have to learn how to speak their language and you have to learn that that stuff costs money. And, you know, but it's the same thing, you know what I mean? We're like, Oh, is it free anymore?

And, you know, but it's the same thing. You know what I mean? You're like, oh, is it free anymore? Okay. You have to learn, you know, all of the acronyms, LTV and CAC and LTO and, and, and, and you have to respect their craft and their science because they're helping you grow the universe of people that you get to show up and bake for every day. But I would say, oh, probably eight or 10 years into the business, we hired our first person where we were doing more than just telling our story and really thinking about, I mean, part of that was also because we started shipping nationwide and shipping overnight. And then we started creating cookies and ice cream and truffle crumb cakes for the grocery. And if you don't do that, then you're doing, you're putting all this work forward, but it's for not because it's getting drowned out in a sea of other people and other things and other businesses doing that, especially in the aisles of the grocery store, you know,

and if no one knows you're there, they don't know what the milk, what like milk in a pink cursive is and stands for, then you might never have the opportunity to feed them. And that's the beauty of marketing. But yeah, I mean, all of that part of business, when do you need an operations team? When do you need, you know, a real, a real leadership team to help you grow? I think you, you certainly know, I approach it from like a bottleneck standpoint. I always would go like, what's our bottleneck? One year it was like, we can't scoop cookies fast enough. Okay, bottleneck.

Let's like how to uncork the bottleneck, get a cookie scooping machine, and, and, and. So one year it was, how do we get more people more excited about Milk Bar? How do we get more people to know what cereal milk is? We need a marketing team. Okay. cereal milk is we need a marketing team okay um when the transition from things that you have strict control over quality control to when it becomes a mass marketed product is that difficult

to keep the quality yeah is it a struggle well it's harder because we now have milk bar bakeries between new york and la with with a ton of cities in between. And we're in grocery stores all over the US and we send care packages to doorsteps and so on. And so it's part of it is the scale because you can't be in front of every oven to like poke the cakes to make sure that they have risen the right way

and peeled back from the edges in just the right way. You can't look at everything with your eyes. And so you're constantly trying to train your incredibly ever-growing team to be your eyes and ears and to champion them to be their own eyes and ears while also trying to look for all of the things in between. Beyond that though,

even if everything comes out of the oven, great. Did it get packaged right? Did the truck truck go in? Was it refrigerated at the right temperature? Did someone leave, you know, a pallet of cookies in the back of their warehouse that they found a week later? Like there are all there are just more places where some of these human errors go to hide. So you just you your world expands and your your brain almost wants to explode. But you have to try and keep sanity and take things day by day and challenge by challenge.

Yeah. And when you find those things, write them. Right. I imagine you just kind of have to keep vigilant. Yeah. Yeah. Vigilant with quality control, I guess. That's where do you where do you want to go with Milk Bar? What do you I mean, do you have any sort of concrete plans? Is it just kind of steady as she goes? I mean, it's steady as she goes. I think like aspirationally, it's to be the most beloved dessert people in the world. It's to be the people that you trust when you're like, I'm celebrating something big

or I'm celebrating something small, but it's a big deal for me or whatever it is. Or like, I am trying to put on my pajamas and eat some like gooey chocolate cake that we're the people that make a difference for you in any way, shape or form. Also just as an approach to life, people that sort of like remind you that you can sort of break the rules a bit.

You can make a little bit of a mess. You can sort of like do your own thing through the lens of dessert. Cause I just think we need more of that in this world. That's, that's the like by and large aspiration, what that actually means, how we get there. I mean, for me, it's kind of like, how do I show up for like the 10 year old version of myself that was like grocery shopping with my mom, walking up and down the cookie house being like, mom, can we please get that cookie? And she'd be like, no, we'll just go home and bake cookie you know yeah just like showing up and reminding people that the world is still full of like possibility and color and lightness in a way that sometimes I think we forget

yeah dessert is sort of the mechanism with which I think we do our best work how do you balance staying the same with introducing new things? You know, like, you know, which is more pressure, you know, I mean, because you don't want to screw it up. You don't want to introduce something new that doesn't live up to the old stuff. But you also don't want to, you know, people want to get stale. People have short attention spans. Yeah. Yeah. I'm different today than I was yesterday.

So, like, you have to change in order to stay the same. But at the same time, like the reason I want that funfetti cake on my birthday is because it marks a moment, you know, like the sanctity of being able to trust that when you get cereal milk ice cream, it's still the same delicious cereal milk ice cream is important too. I think it's having the boundaries of knowing what we do and doing it really well and not ever taking for granted that the recipe made time and time again. It's still breakable. But I think the other piece of it is never being afraid to try new things on for size. Like the birthday cake, the Milk Bar birthday cake wasn't the first thing we made at Milk Bar. We started making it like two years into Milk Bar. So if we weren't courageous enough to think about

what else we were missing, we wouldn't have actually come up with the very thing that you know and love that we make right now. And so my sort of thing is like, no, it's kind of like cheering two kids on in the same race, right? Like cheering your kid in that always comes in first place, but also really championing your kid that doesn't come in first place. Like you can be, you can beat your sibling. And so like, whenever we're thinking about like,

all right, this apple cider donut cake, how do we know that it really crushes when it dethrones the birthday cake, you know? And so we're, we're constantly trying to compete with ourself with like the biggest smile on our face where it's always going to be a win-win. We're like nothing's a loss as long as we show up and are like putting our most delicious foot forward and bodyguarding anything that goes on the menu to be like, yo, if this doesn't make you want to put on your sweatpants and run to your couch, it's not done yet. We'll also continue to do what we do really well

with that same sentiment. What do you want people to take away from your story? Like, you know, from your path, your journey, you know, like what do you think, what would you like people to think of you? I mean, aside from delicious cakes and cookies. Yeah, I think it's, I think it is, it's like, it's the figure out what feeds you

and, and choose that and do it. If you, if you figure out what it is, you'll know that it's right. If you don't care how much money you make or how many hours it takes up in your day, like at any cost, the cost is irrelevant to you. And then I think it's be patient because it's not a linear pursuit to figure out what it actually means for you. So like choosing food for me was right because it was what fed me. I had no clue. I'm still figuring out the clue of like,

what does that actually mean for me? I unpack it a little bit more every day. So I think it's figure out what feeds you and then acknowledge that like, it's this pursuit. You can't be in a hurry to pursue it. You can be intense about your pursuit of it, but it's not linear and like enjoy every moment

because you're going to unpack something new every day and learn something new every day. And you're going to make mistakes along the way. And all those things are going to be like the epic part of the wild ride that it is. Yeah. I think, you know, sometimes people younger than me, when I talk to them about just sort of more in philosophical broad terms about, you know, mastery of something. And when you, when they, I think a lot of young people and they find out that old people, and I'm considering myself one uh they they don't know either you

know like they're still just kind of putting out fires we're all just and you know and like as far like if you know i this podcast i'm supposed to ask ask people what the point of their history is like i don't fucking know for myself like i don't know i still am like if you said like where do i want to be i'd be like i i there's, I think it's close to the ocean, you know, but I mean, beyond that, I'm not exactly sure. And I, as I've gotten older, I mean, I always had that hunch, especially getting into the world of grownups and realizing, oh my God, grownups, they don't know, you know, they don't know any more than yeah and it used to sort of bother me and now I kind of like it's comforting it's kind of like we're all in this together and and yeah and it's not just

that like there's something beautiful about not having figured it out because it means you're you're never going to stop you're always going to keep learning and learning and learning. But can we also say to anyone listening, don't be the kind of grown up that pretends like you have it all figured out. Like, just it's no giggle a little bit. Give me a little wink when I see you to be like, you know, I'm just Josh and I have no freaking clue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's the I think that's the best part of being a grown up. When you look at somebody and go, you are so full of it.

You don't have any more of a clue than I have of a clue. But like, don't let the little ones know yet. They'll figure it out. They'll figure it out soon enough that we don't actually have it figured out either. Exactly. Well, listen, thank you so much for sitting down with me and talking to me. And good luck with the book, which is called Every Cake Has a Story. Correct. That's it.

That's it. So, you know, buy that for the young people in your lives. And Christina Tosi, good luck on the book and everything else. And I will keep eating your food. Amazing. Thanks, Andy. Thank you. And thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with more Three Questions. I've got a big, big love for you. and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Make sure to rate and review the three questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts.