The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Dan Bucatinsky

Episode Date: May 19, 2026

Actor, writer, and producer Dan Bucatinsky joins Andy Richter to discuss his collaborative partnership with Lisa Kudrow, why the time felt right for a revival of “The Comeback” on HBO, his role as executive producer on the game show “25 Words or Less” with Meredith Viera, giving your kids the opportunity to stumble, and much more. Do you want to talk to Andy live on SiriusXM’s Conan O’Brien Radio? Tell us your favorite dinner party story (about anything!) or ask a question - leave a voicemail at 855-266-2604 or fill out our Google Form at BIT.LY/CALLANDYRICHTER. Listen to "The Andy Richter Call-In Show" every Wednesday at 1pm Pacific on SiriusXM's Conan O'Brien Channel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the three questions. I'm your host, Andy Richter. And today I am talking to Dan Bukitinsky. You've seen him in Scandal, hacks, 24 Legacy, and more. You can see him now. And again, because he was in it before, on the comeback on HBO, here's my conversation with Dan Bukotinsky. You've been such a good player of our show, 25 words or less. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I forgot you guys are producers on that. Now, what does that mean? It means I developed that game with Mary McCormick and Lisa Kudrow. And this guy named John Quinn. Yeah. We took the board game and we, Mary had gotten the rights to this board game. Uh-huh.

And we spent a year adapting the game for television. Yeah. Pitching it all over town. It took three years. Yeah, yeah. I've never, it was crazy. Yeah. And then we got a pilot.

And then a year later, we got 15 episodes. And then a year later, we got a full season. Right, right. And now we've been on for 80s. seasons. But you're one of our best players. Oh, thank you. No, it's fun. I really love it. And I mean, I do it because it's a fun game and, um, and Meredith. She's just so cool and so great. She's one of the most favorite people I've ever met. I love her. Yeah, yeah. And people do it because of her. Yeah. No. And I mean, yeah. It's a lot of fun. And then she was, it was funny too,

because she'd plug my podcast, especially when I was doing 25 words or less much, the time. It was the only thing I had to plug because it was so goddamn slow. Well, did it? And COVID times, too. Yeah, yeah. We were one of the few examples of pivoting for COVID in a way that actually worked. Yeah. So much so that the entire format of our game show changed. Yes. As a result of, as a result of COVID. Yeah, yeah. Like we used to be on a, I don't know. I saw, I saw clips, right? I never was in the day. We were on a sound stage with, with a, like a couch. Yeah, yeah. And the whole idea was that we'd have four celebrities playing, not two.

And we would all be talking shit at each other. Yeah. And we did that. Yeah. And then COVID hit, and we changed it to sort of that Hollywood Square's look, which the audiences love. Oh, they do. And now for six seasons, people prefer to see the game being played. Yeah.

Faces always forward. Yeah. And everyone can see Meredith and everyone can see the contestants and everyone can see the celebrities and the words. Yeah. And it really makes for better, for us, it's like, this was intended to be a living room. game. Yeah, yeah. And it's now, I think we've stayed on the air as long as we have because the format looks like that. Right, right. That was like an inadvertent win. Right, right. And everybody

getting sick. I think, Ann, I think I did it two or three times before I was in the same building as Meredith Vieira. Oh, she was in her basement. I know. I went in a basement. That's a sweet gig. I couldn't believe it. I mean, she was literally, when I went to go visit her at her, at her house. Yeah. We went downstairs. And I was like, you're, washing machine is right there. I go, and then you turn around, and it's like the 25 words were, like, game show, laundry, cat litter, wine. You know, it was so crazy.

There's a lot of great footage of TV weathermen and their cats walking through because they just have a blue screen set out at home. They're like people doing a load of whites while saying, well, this just came in. No, it's easy to do it that way. It's been fun to collaborate with all of them, and I love to play the game as much anything and you're a great player. We discovered probably three seasons in that finding celebrities who are both smart, funny, and play the game well was more satisfying to the viewer than necessarily like, oh, cool, we got so-and-so on the show. Right, but so-and-so is terrible at the game.

They're losing people, money left and right. And I love their TV show, but they're not good at the game. And the viewing audience doesn't like that. They like to see people who are good at the game. Yep, yeah. So there's a certain type of person that will say, I love you on 25 words or less. And it's like, it's like a kindly grandma. Oh, my old female fans are like, I love you on 25 words or less. And I, you know, I don't hear it that often.

No. And it's such a nice thing. I don't thank you, you know, because it does, you know, you do some things in you're like, is anyone really paying attention to this? And also, we just got like, you know, early on, maybe season three or four, we got the stats that our demo, that our core demo, average age. Now, don't forget, I just said average. Yes. Is 80.

So there are a 90 year old. We've got some people who are in hospice. God love them. Who've lived long lives who are watching it every single day. Who are bringing our number. up. Yeah. And no wonder they like the new format. They relate to a person sitting in one spot for a long time. Correct. Don't move around so much. I don't know where the voices are coming from. It's challenging. Yeah. Just say it to my face. Lisa and I were just in South by Southwest for the comeback. Yeah. And someone comes around the, and listen, it's packed with people.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, most of her fans, obviously, come from friends. Yeah, yeah. And many are from the comeback fans. We have very, very loyal fans. this guy comes around the corner and he sees the two of us and he's like oh my god i'm the biggest fan of and we're both thinking like it's going to be me is it going to be you it's going to be this show it's going to be this show by the way that's a high class problem right right right and he's like one that drives a wedge between you constantly oh yeah oh yeah absolutely because i can't compete are you kidding with friends it's like why would you ever yeah you can't no no no that would be like suicidal to compete you win and she deserves it but the point was we bought this gay guy and it's probably in his 40s.

I'm like, that's definitely in our demo for many of the things we've done over the years, collectively and apart. And he goes, my husband and I watch 25 words or less every single day. And we were both like, you literally are the reason we've dropped the demo. Yeah. The average age from 89 to 80. And thank you for that, sir. Anyway.

Oh, no, it is. It's really fun. and I just have, you know. It's fun. It's fun, yeah. And it's, you're funny on it and you're a good player. And that's like to us, gold. It was, it was, you guys went to Atlanta.

Yes. And I mean, you know, and I mean, nobody goes to Atlanta for fun. Well, I mean, people go to Atlanta for fun, but productions don't go to Atlanta. Right. They go to Atlanta. People who live in Atlanta as it turns out. Yes, yes. No, no, no.

Atlanta's a great town. I didn't mean that. I mean, but like a production that's in L.A. Doesn't move to Atlanta. No. Because it's convenient. They do it because it's cheaper. A hundred percent.

And the first time I was there, somebody said like, yeah, they're going to try and minimize the number of talent that they're flying in. They're just going to use Atlanta talent. Yeah. And then I think the next time we did it, they're like, yeah, we kind of ran out. And we want you to come back. Please come back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And now we're in Jersey City. Yeah. Why did that? Why from there to Jersey City? there is an opportunity to make it for a good price. Oh, wow. And we've always sort of wanted to open up the talent pool to New Yorkers without having to fly them all the way from L.A. I mean, from, yes, from New York to L.A.

And so we had a really good economic package with Jersey, and it's really close to the city. And Meredith Fierra lives in upstate New York. And so it's very, it would make it a lot easier for her not to uproof. her life for the 160 episodes that we shoot of that thing. It also has a little bit to do with this new change that we've made in the last season and this season where we're doing live shows. And the idea of doing at least four live shows a day means that we're playing live. There's no cutting.

It's really scary. Yeah, yeah. But it's very exciting. And the station groups that are signing up for live play are, you know, we have to match the East Coast with East Coast time. Sure. So we had a lot of East Coast station groups that wanted the live show. So it paid to do it there.

Yeah. You could always do it anywhere, you know, anywhere. Sure, sure. But so it was a good accident and it allowed Meredith to have a little more quality of life. Yeah, yeah. Which I'm all for. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But yeah, well, I haven't said yes yet, but, you know, maybe this podcast will sway me.

It might. No pressure. No pressure. We're paying exactly what we've always paid, which is nothing. So I'm hoping that I'm going to negotiate. That's why I said. I do it because I love Meredith. I'm telling you.

You got to do it because you love the game because it's a really fun game to play, but not too many other reasons. Yeah. And she, I used to plug my, I was sorry to say, plug my podcast. And she's like, how come you've never had me on? And I was like, okay. I was like, I would never have dreamed in a million years to say, Like, hey, Meredith, you're in your basement and wherever you are.

Now she's not. She can do it. And she's really so smart. She was the best. She was so great. And funny. Yeah, yeah. And got a good trucker's mouth when she needs to.

Yeah, yeah. She's somebody that you wouldn't, you know, expect, you know, serious news lady. And she is. Yeah. And she is, but also loves to play games. And she's so good at talking to the contestants. I mean, that would be what would trip me up. I mean talking to that number of strangers on a daily basis with true interest.

Yes. Not that I'm that much of a narcissist. Clearly I am. But the ability to strike up conversation as easily as she does. It's in her blood. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I represent Meredith Vieira.

So anybody who wants... Well, let's get to you. Enough of your game shows. Got any other game shows? I got some in my... It's some that I'm trying. Are you really? Yeah.

I've tried that too. It's hard. It's really hard, but, you know, yeah, it's a long story, but trying to get the rights to a very, very, very, very popular game and then getting the rights and then losing the rights and then that company that owns the rights is sold, you know, to the planner's peanut channel. And then you suddenly have to be pitching to them and then you start all over again. Yeah, yeah. It's really tricky.

It is. It's a, it is an aspect of this. Like when you have a steady gig, you're not thinking like, okay, what? What else can I do? And then you get time where you can, where you're like, all right, I've got to put irons into fires. And I mean, I've done this. I've come up with game shows to then pitch them. And then I've also, I mean, I've been, you know, like attached as a host of game show pilots, hosted a few game show pilots and one that went to, you know, to air.

Yeah. And then also and also had companies come to me and they're repping a board game that they wanted to, you know. And I mean, and it is, it's just such a. weird niche of the industry. It really is. And just as, uh, just as disappointing and soul crushing as any other aspect. There's no end. I say this every day. Yeah. There's no end at whatever level you're at in our business. Yeah. There's no end to the ways in which you can be disappointed. Yeah. It just happens at every level. And yeah. And it's just part of it. And the same thing with games. Like we did this, we've made 25 words or less one of the most successful daytime talk,

game shows. And I thought, oh, that puts me in a good position to then go out with another one because we obviously did this one. Right, right. But daytime is dwindling. The notion of daytime is dwindling. People who watch television during the day. People who watch television, period, who are not watching on an app or on their computer. So you have to reimagine the way that you're going to sell the board game or adapt to the board game. So that at all times, you've thought of, how are people going to play on their phones? How are people going to watch on their computers. How are we going to keep them engaged through social media? Like, it's a whole new game. And I say the game. Yeah, I say the word game. And I know, but I see, all these things that you're

saying like, that's all the stuff I don't want to do. I know. I don't want to think about like, I just, I'm still old enough to be like, no, I do like the show and then you put it on the shelves. Like, why do I have to put it on the shelves too? It doesn't make sense. I know. It's not fair. I just One of my phone to ring and someone tell me where to go. Right. And make me look pretty and make it let it be fun. Exactly. Can't you tell my loves it grow?

You've had a nice long career, you know, so you've had plenty of. Oh, is it officially over? No, no, no. You said it like today. It ends today, right? Yeah. I'm ready for it. I'm ready for it.

No, it's just sort of a hallmark of this podcast. It's a career in there. Well, it is actually. Yeah, yeah. But it is a little bit, this podcast, which I'm really a fan of. Oh, thank you. is about reflecting. Yes.

Forward and back. Yes, exactly. And standing in the present. I'm very grateful for the time I've had. And I want to thank everybody who is involved in getting to me where I am and now shoving me off the stage. No, but I mean, is this what you saw your life being? Like a character actor, you know, who also executive produced. Is that kind of when you set out?

Is that what you thought you were going to be? No, no. I mean, I set out to be an actor. and I did all the things. I graduated college and I went to New York and I waited tables. Yeah. And I took jazz and tap three days a week

and voice lessons twice a week. And were you from originally? New York. New York. Okay. New York City originally. And then we moved to just the suburbs of New York. Okay.

And then I went to college in Poughkeepsie, New York. And then I moved back to New York to be an actor. Yeah, yeah. Slash waiter slash, you know. Yes, yes. And I was just a 22-year-old, rabid, very ambitious. like I'm got to figure out a way to make this happen. Yeah.

And, you know, it was hard then, as it always has been and will be. But I had my sights set on Broadway. Yeah. And auditioning for Broadway shows and auditioning for commercials and dancing and singing and acting and like just do. I had my sights set just period, like I'm going to make it happen. Yeah, yeah. And as things were getting hard, I started taking improv classes and there was two years where the Brownlings came to New York and I started doing the groundlings on the East Coast and I wrote a little sketch show and I realized, oh, if I put me in the show, then I've just cast myself. I just got apart. Yeah, yeah. What a good way to get employment, which is to employ yourself. Right. I sort of inadvertently learned, oh, no one's ever going to give a shit as much as I do about what I write or what I act. Yeah. And so why not be the source of it? It was just like, you know, it was smart at the time, but in the

moment, it just felt like survival. Right. And so that little sketch show is sort of what I started to perform and it kind of got a little bit of a following and we came out to L.A. with it. And I was like, this is going to be my ticket. I mean, the biggest mistake I ever made when I came out to L.A. to, you know, to chase, to make it. To chase the dream, right, of being an employed actor. Yeah. Is that anything is the ticket. That any one thing is the ticket. Like you really, when you're young, You really think like if I can just get blank, then the road is paved. Right, right, right. No, there's another road and another road and another road and another road.

And thank goodness, because otherwise the road closures would just stop you in your tracks. Well, and also, yeah, it's like it isn't that, you know, when I was doing late night with Conan O'Brien and then into the TBI people, any kid that would be like, do you have any advice? And I'd be like, yeah, become a talk show sidekick and then, you know, just let it build from there. because, but it's like, I don't know. It happened. Yeah. It happened, but I mean, it happened to me. I don't know how I can, you know, other than say, take improv classes, which even that doesn't matter.

Now it's like get a million subscribers. I know. Watch you do get ready in the morning. That's the other thing. Any path that is Andy Richter's is not a path that anybody. And the same with mine. Like, I can't tell you that if you did exactly what I did, if anything would happen. I came to L.A. at 27.

Yeah. And I wound up having the career that I kind of had dreamed of at 47. Oh, wow. So what happened during 20 years? Yeah. A lot of disappointment, I'll tell you. Yeah, yeah. And I learned during those 20 years, oh, I can write.

I'm actually could also write. And so I'm not complaining during those 20 years from 20 to 40, I was in a relationship with a writer who was encouraging me to write. And I was making stuff. And I was, you know, I was getting parts here and there. Yeah. as clerks and waiters. Yes, guest stores had had no name, which I became very good at. I think I played three different jewelry clerks and I played three different waiters.

I was, I've been a priest like seven times. I don't know what it is about me. I was going to just see if you were available. Tech of Dale, you scream priest. Priest and the voice of dogs. You're kidding. Yeah. Well, that could be very lucrative, my friend.

The voice of dogs. I've been the voice of a dog like five times, both on-camera dogs, you know, like live action. dogs that they just pipe in a voiceover and then also. Animated. Yeah. Animated dogs. Yeah. So I inadvertently became a writer and inadvertently became a producer because it was a means

towards what I felt was the eventual goal. Yeah. And so again, the ability to pivot and adapt and learn a different skill and care, give a shit more about the thing that I wanted to make than anybody else was going to. Yeah. As much as you want someone else to care more. Yeah. You're always the one who cares more.

Right. And so I kind of didn't imagine me doing all those things, but I wound up having the privilege of learning all these different hats to wear as a means to an end. And also as a means, you can't, you know, you can't sustain yourself as a, even the working actor, if you get three jobs a year, which is a good year for an actor. Yeah. You're making what? $18,000?

Yeah, yeah. And I had a family to raise. Yeah. So I found other means of being creative and other means of love. learning how to make television. Yeah. Out of A, I'm very ADD, and I'm also very, I don't take no for an answer easily. Yeah.

But also really, always it felt like it was a means to an end. And now I, you know, now I realize I'm on the other side of a wall at a much later age. And I feel really glad that I got the experiences I had and partnered with Lisa Kudra for 15 years producing television. We got to make really interesting shows. Yeah. So a lot of that stuff was not part of the plan, not part of the dream. Not part of the dream when I was eight. But one of the things I tell young people when I meet them and who are like, I want a career in the business.

I said, listen, the number one thing you can do for yourself is don't put your future adult self in the hands of an eight-year-old. Yeah. If you are going to continue to be a grown-up, but with the dream of an eight-year-old, it's okay to have your dreams. And every time someone wins an Oscar or an Emmy, they tell you dreams can come true. Uh-huh. But guess what else can come true? you know, eviction and not being able to pay your rent and you have to learn to pivot. Yeah.

And, you know, you have. And also just profound delusion. Like you have to, you have to be honest. Yes, you have to be honest and take stock of reality and really. And that can suck. It can suck. But you've got to do it. It can be the reason why you finally say, you know what, this is not worth it for me.

A completely admirable decision. Yeah. You're like, yeah, you're going to be kicking yourself and banging your head against the wall for a very long time. So legitimately, if you don't have to do this, then don't. Or if you can find another way, if you have this other skill that while you're also trying to act, I used to tell people, having an acting career is a luxury, like sailing. If you can afford to sail every weekend because you have your own boat and you have the time, then you can afford to be an actor. But if you can't, you better find a mean something else to pay for the time that you want to go out there and keep

trying to get an acting job because it's such a crapshoot. What, how has, like you said, you know, there was 20, it all happened kind of when you were 47, the part that you were sort of thinking was going to happen. What is your relationship to the disappointment, the inevitable disappointment that still visits us? How do you feel it's different now than it used to be? That's a really thought-provoking question. And I'll tell you something, it's profound because here's the truth of it. there's always a part of us, the child within us or the, I guess people call it imposter syndrome. The part of you that even while you dreamed, you feared the entire time. I may not have what it takes.

And if I have to find, learn that, it's going to be devastating. I won't be able to live with that fact. But maybe that's what's true. Maybe that's what's coming down the pike. Someone's going to finally say, oh no, oh no, no, no, no. You must stop. You have no, you have no business being here is the fear, right? And so the disappointment, every time it came, on some level, it would confirm a deep, dark fear. You're like, oh, of course I didn't get that part. Not because it just wasn't, the truth is, it just wasn't your part. Right. What I've learned now in time, obviously, I've been doing this a very long time and have been kicked so many times that now I know how to process it.

But back then, each one would confirm a fear that I have no business doing this. and I couldn't bear that thought. Yeah. I will say I'm grateful for the fact that I couldn't bear that thought because for some people, it might have been like, oh, I guess I don't have what it takes and I would step away. Yeah. I wouldn't accept it. As much as I feared it was the truth, I just couldn't accept it.

So I kept going. But my relationship with rejection would often feel like something that I would try to wrap my identity around. And this is a big thing. This is sort of my catharsis as I reached middle age. And as I've recently turned 60, I've really started understanding what our relationship needs to be to setback, to failure, to humiliation, to embarrassment. These are all stepping stones on the road towards success. And if we see them as such, we don't let them, they don't become a part of our identity. You failed.

That does not mean you are a failure. I would fail and I would feel like, oh, then I must be a failure. Yeah. I mean, I lost, therefore I'm a loser. No, you lost, therefore keep playing because at some point you could win. Yeah. And you failed, therefore keep trying. Yeah.

Look, every tennis player, if they quit every time they lost a point, there would be no game. So I have learned through maturity and through experience how important the setbacks are to the eventual win. Yeah. how we can use them as fuel, how they hurt, and they feel like stepping on the scale, and how upsetting they are. Yeah. And how much they do scratch a tiny, tiny little childhood fear and itch.

And yet really and truly, we probably should thank ourselves for the opportunity to have been told no, because it will hopefully fuel the next one. I also have just come to the conclusion that, yeah, I'm going to occasionally feel like, well, that's it. I suck at this. They figured it out. I'm not going to, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I guess I better do something else. Yeah. And I've, I've heard, like I remember Dustin Hoffman saying that, you know, like, that he'll have a span where, and he's Dustin Hoffman. He's still like, he still feels like, well, I guess that's it. If he doesn't get something on, you know, if he has a month, just nothing happens. He was like, well, I guess that's it. You said it just never. never ends that that except i'm fascinated by when you feel that way when you have that moment you're like well that might have been it i think i've had i mean i'm clearly i'm clearly done yeah look what the universe is telling me yeah what gets you out of it uh self-negotiation of you know that's not true right like you know like the dad and me going like honey you know that's not

right you know like you're going to be fine this has happened before it's always the ship is always right at itself. You know, you just got to be patient. You have skills and worth. And you just got to wait for people to come around. That's huge. Yeah, yeah. The ability to bounce back is huge. And it's the difference. You so beautifully said it. It's the parent, it's the dad in you. Yeah. It's our inner voices, not to sound like this is a self help podcast, but for two seconds. No, but I mean, we kind of do, you know. We talk about that stuff a lot. Our children are driving our fears. Are the kids and of us are the ones that want to be told that we're good and have our drawings put on the refrigerator. Even at age 60, I want my, I want my drawing on the refrigerator in front of all the other people's

drawings. And when it doesn't happen, it fucking hurts. And I'm like, fine, I'm not doing this ever again. No. And then who's going to talk us out of that? And if not a voice that has some historical evidence, that has some encouragement to it, that has all the things that we tell our children when they're feeling completely worthless or like there's no hope left, we have to pick ourselves back up because, again, back to what I was realizing early on in my career, no one's going to give a shit more than we do. If we can't learn to parent ourselves in that way, who's going to call us and be like, oh, no, come on one more audition. Just go on one more. No, it's got to be us who tells us, like, wait a minute. If you want to quit, go ahead. But here's the truth of it. You always feel

like this. Yeah. And when you do blank, blank and blank, it gets you out of it. Yeah. And maybe there's something coming down the pike that you didn't even realize. Can't you tell my loves to grow? I, it's, I mean, having this conversation about this and watching, and having watched the comeback, and knowing Lisa, too, I do think it's, like, I feel like you guys are telling yourself ghost stories. Because this is all stuff that, that you know is, you know, you understand the absurdity. of it and you've made a very absurd show, lampooning the drive and the sort of, I've got, you know, I mean, she's on a new thing where she's, you know, it's always, I'm on a show. Yeah.

And if she doesn't get to say that, she's nothing. Yes. And so you guys understand the folly of that. But, you know, you've been in this business and you have to, you have had to deal with that kind of feeling. Yes. On a real level. Well, that's one of the reasons I love that the partnership of Lisa.

Secudro and Michael Patrick King, who write the show together and have since season one in 2005, season two in 2014, and now our new season in 2006. They are telling the story from really from two points of view. The point of view of the inside of an artist, of a woman who wants to be seen, wants to be heard, and wants to control her narrative. And we understand that from the inside. It's a personal story. Her marriage, her life, her family. Her family. her sense of power, her sense of importance. We get that. We get that. And then there's the bigger picture. How does that desire and drive and need fit in with a landscape in our business that is threatening us at every turn? Yeah. That you are no longer relevant writers because we have

technology. You are no longer relevant writers because we have reality shows now. Like, or you and you're just, you got too old. You got, yeah, yeah. There's no, there's nothing for you here and So we're able to sort of take audiences through the landscape of the business on the bigger scale and maybe even bigger than that through the lens of this tour guide who is a person who's just so transparent in her need to control her narrative. And it allows us to be funny about it. But here's a perfect example. We were canceled. We were a show that was made in 2005. I produced it.

I was luckily enough to be in it. Lisa and Michael put their hearts and soul into this really interesting ahead of its time show on HBO in 2005. We got some Emmy nominations and were canceled. Now, who would have ever imagined at the end of that cancellation that we would get to come back 10 years later and make another season? Make a comeback of the comeback. It wasn't part of the plan. People were like, oh, did you always have it? No, we didn't always have.

It was an amazing opportunity that happened as a result of people finding the show and thinking it was interesting. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. We created an ending at the end of season two that made it incredibly difficult to ever imagine, ever coming back. Yeah. she's a boy. It gets her Emmy. She gets her Emmy, but you see her come out of the theater without cameras following her around. She's a real person who's going to the hospital bed. And she's made a connection with a real person. She's not believing in bullshit anymore. And she won a prize for not believing in bullshit. In a way, she becomes, she's sitting in the hospital bed of a loved one and her husband. and she reconcile in one beautiful moment at the end of that season, and she wins the Emmy,

on TV with her friend by her side and her husband on her other side. That finale of season two is one of my favorite things. I'm happy to have my name on it, but it was a brilliant piece of writing by Lisa and Michael and well-realized, and nobody could imagine more. And then, you know, five years later, people are like, is it going to be third season of the comeback? And we were like, I mean, maybe, sure. Sure. You never know.

Who do you know? You never know. Exactly. It was not part of the plan. And then Michael and Lisa would get together and have lunch. And every so often they'd throw out an idea and it wouldn't be so great. And it's too bad that. And Lisa one day goes, it's too bad Valerie wasn't around during the strikes because that would have been really fun to watch how she makes that part of her narrative.

And also her with AI too. It's just so. But that's what led to the, what if she gets hired for the first AI written sitcom? And they both, they both like lit up. Yeah. And again, when you light up from a creative idea where you can't not do it. Yeah, yeah. And then HBO is like, if you're going to do it, you've got to do it right this minute

because that story is relevant right now. Yeah. And look at this. We've now created sort of what's inadvertently become the last of a perfect trilogy of a three-decade story, a two-decade story, of a woman navigating the business and her life and her marriage over 22 years. Yeah. So that's a perfect example of like, we couldn't have predicted that.

Yeah. Had we quit and never decided never to do it again, we wouldn't have gotten that opportunity. Is there catharsis in the show for you in terms of just taking some of the air out of the just, because the desire never goes away? No. The ambition never goes away. The like, maybe this is the one that's going to, I don't know what it even is. And like I say, I'm 59. I'm just a little younger than you.

And I still am kind of like, well, maybe this thing will be the thing that. And I'm like, that what? I know. What are you even still talking about, you know? But it's still there, you know. Here's the thing. Of course you're being ridiculous. There's no ticket.

Yeah. I am too. I'm always like, well, maybe this would be. And I got a good life. Whatever. I don't know what I expect. What ticket are you looking to buy? Yeah, yeah.

You know, we've gotten far enough. Private jet. I don't want that. You know, like, yeah, my own island? No thanks. I don't want to mow that much long. 100%. Yeah. No. And thank goodness we still feel like there's more to do. There's more story to tell. There's more opportunity to be had. I think it's kind of a good thing that the kids inside of us still think there's another ticket. Yeah, yeah. Because it means we're still playing. Yeah. When we no longer care if there's another ticket or not, then it's, we've turned a different kind of corner. Right, right. With the comeback, it feels very lucky. Yeah. It feels so good to be able to have told this last chapter.

Yeah. As an actor, my character gets to do some crazy shit this season, which was very satisfying for me. But also as part of the family that created the comeback in terms of John Malfi and myself and Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King, it really feels like a beautiful ending after, you know, we're the first, I think we're the first series in the history of television that took 22 years to make three seasons. Yeah, yeah. But how lucky for us to have been given that opportunity. Yeah. It's almost like those documents. memories about this English doc. Yeah, yeah, like seven up.

And then every seven years, they follow these people throughout their life. Except the intention of those from day one, the intention was we're going to visit these people every seven years till the end of their lives. Yeah. It was the premise. We were setting out to make a TV show that we hoped would come back four months later. Yeah, yeah. Let's start season two like in September.

Season two started 10 years later. Yeah. So it was a shift. But it allowed us a gift that I don't think we ever. knew we'd have, which is to be able to tell a really big story. Each season of the comeback is telling a very big story about a threat to the creative process of making television that we didn't ever imagine what happened. And that is a real gift, and I certainly feel grateful for that. How did you and Lisa meet? Lisa and I met on the set of—my husband is Don Roos, and he made a film in

1997 called the opposite of sex that he cast Lisa in. I see. And Lisa and I met on the set of his movie, but realized when she came to set, I remember exactly where we were in Hancock Park, two blocks from here. We realized we had been to college at the exact same place and overlapped by two years. Oh, wow. And she was premed. And just never ran into each other. We never ran into each other. She was pre-med. She was in the bio building. And I was in a dance troupe that was doing a dance on the steps of the bio building. That's as close as I ever came to meeting Lisa Kudra. She was like, I remember that dance.

It was so noisy and so annoying that while I was like looking under a microscope, you guys were doing. Making it hard. So that was embarrassing. But she and I didn't cross pass it faster. And we wound up meeting on the set of Don's movie. And we became friends. And she and her husband, Michelle, and Don and I became couple friends.

And a few years later, and then a year later, I made a small, little independent movie called All Over the Guy, which is having its 25th anniversary this year, and Lisa did an amazing cameo in it. And within a year of that, I was writing pilots because the movie became a ticket to me writing for television. And she approached me about starting a company. And so we were friends and we were both creatives and we were both actors. And we thought that we would make good partners in a production company. And that company called Is or Is an Entertainment, lasted 15 years until we both sort of wanted to do different things. We still produce the game show together.

We still are hoping to make more of who do you think you are, which we did 10 seasons of, that genealogy docu-series. But she loves being an actress for hire. I too like being an actor for hire, and I have other projects that I want to do, and we've remained, she's like family to me. Yeah. So that meeting, because of Dawn, really started something

that has been a 30-year friendship. How did the, how did the, you guys, did she come up with the comeback? Like, did she have this? She had played. Because I could just see her just doing Valerie, you know, for a laugh at dinner. Well, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She used to do a character in the groundlings before, I think before friends.

I mean, it was before friends. Well, of course. Of course. That was called late, I think it was called late night talk show actress. Yeah, yeah. Just a woman who everything she says is a little bit more self-important than, I can't even imitate it, but she does a little snippet of it all the time where it was sort of like, can't we just save the planet? It'll be a favor to me. And she had this voice, and it was basically the beginnings of Valerie Cherish.

Yeah, yeah. And right around the year after we started our company, Lisa had just finished friends. And she had this notion in her head because Anna Nicole Smith had been on a reality show on, I can't remember what they called it, but cameras were just following. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was before any housewives. Yeah, that's a good question. What was that show called?

Because it seemed like everybody watched it. I know. Well, there was no other show like it. Yeah, yeah, where cameras were just following you at home and at breakfast and, like, in your life. Right. And Lisa had a lunch planned with Michael Patrick King, who she and he had sort of been acquaintances for years. Yeah. Their agents put them together.

And Lisa was like, I don't really have an idea for a show, except I have this one notion. which is this character that I play at the groundlings, this character, what if she were being followed by reality cameras the way Anna Nicole Smith is? And four hours later at that lunch, you know, Michael and Lisa had sort of carved out the notion of what became the comeback. Wow. And they put together a pitch, and we were all at HBO around Carolyn Strauss's table and pitching her this idea. Lisa was doing the character at the pitch, and Carolyn was like, I don't know what you guys are talking about, but why don't you make it? Yeah. And that was a time different from where we are now, 22 years ago, where that could happen,

where you're pitching an idea and based on your reputations and how funny you are in the room, you get a chance to go make your show. Yeah, yeah. And the comeback grew out of just this germ of an idea and Michael sparking to it. And that chemistry between the two of them has what's driven every season we've made. Yeah. And the two of them writing together. It's a really special chemistry. And he directs the episodes and they write the episodes together. And I really love watching that collaboration happen, producing the show and then getting to play Billy, which is insane. Yeah. He is insane.

He's insane. You're insane. But I get to sort of let my insides come out this season on the comeback. Yeah. And he does seem to be the id. Like she's the, he's just all id. He's just like, gimmee, I want. Give me that.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, didn't even research. I mean, even in the moment where he was like, we were, basically, we were offered this incredible opportunity to be, for you to star. Yeah. In the first ever AI written multicam. Yeah.

And she's like, is that even allowed? Yeah. And he's like, I don't know. It must be because they're doing it. And, you know, I love how he says, I don't know, like five times. I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. We were offered an opportunity. Therefore, I was offered an opportunity. therefore the answer is yes. Like, I don't care. Who's behind it? I don't know. But like they're doing it.

It's like a fish with bait. And a little, like, okay. Yeah, a hundred percent. A snack. Nothing but it. Actually, no one's ever said that before. It's totally true. Even season two where someone is doing better at his job than he is.

And he's like a baby and it's like, I quit. If I can't do it the way I want to do it, then I quit. Then I quit. It's a big baby. Yeah. And there was a little moment that was cut from the scene, understandably, but there's a moment where I'm showing Valerie and her husband the amount of money that they're offering her for this show. Yeah. And I'm like, who gives a fuck about any of this?

AI or not AI unions, who gives a shit? Look at how much they're offering. And she's like, for the whole thing. And he's like, no, per episode. You know, it's just like he's screaming a child. Yeah, yeah. And very much that is what drives Billy. Yeah. And Lisa said in an interview recently. And it's really true. And it's kind of the theme of our season and kind of appropriate to the times. Everybody's Valerie Cherish now. Yeah. Everyone has a phone. Everyone can be the star of their own reality show by holding it up and putting themselves on TikTok and Instagram. And we've all become the protagonist in our story, our fantasy stories. And I think that definitely happens for Billy this season. Yeah, yeah. How long have you been married legally or together with

person I live with. Whatever, man. All right. Because with dudes, you really have to differentiate. No, I know, I know. It's been 33 years, I believe. It'll be 33 years in October. We've been married legally since 2008, so probably whatever that math is.

Right, right. 17 years. Yeah, yeah. We have two kids, 21 and 18. Wow. Can't quite believe it. Yeah, it's been a long time. And we sort of count 33 years.

three years from the day we met, which is a bit of a cheat. You can do whatever you want. The gays get so little that we want to take that. You're a grown up. You can do whatever you want. I could do whatever I want. Yeah, yeah. I count my anniversary from the first time I ever thought about being a bride. And that is when I was six.

No. But yeah. Is it hard? I mean, well, I mean, I know the answer. But I mean, just if you can explain, like the difficulty of being married is, is is already there, regardless of what you do for a living. But in this city, in this business, I think it's double hard. And have you found that? Or do you think like you just, or do you find that you guys being in the same industry is helpful? Um, there are ways when I was just,

Don and I are 10 years apart. So when I, when we met, I was 27. And I was not where I am now, obviously, and I was still struggling, and I was working in the box office of a theater, and he had just sold boys on the side. Like, the disparity in our careers was so dramatic, and I was not looking to find someone older than me or somebody to take care of me. I wasn't one of those games. Right, right. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it wasn't sort of what I was seeking.

But we really got along, and we really kind of got each other, and we got each other's sense of humor. The last thing he wanted was to date an actor, because there's nothing more punishing. And believe me, I was. was punishing for the first five, six years. Like it was nothing but disappointed. And he, it was hard. It was really hard for both of us to be in an industry where he had already gotten over the big humps. Yeah. And had gotten some really big breaks. Yeah. And he was really feeling his power at that, where he was at 36. And I was just climbing, just climbing and getting kicked,

just to, you know, getting disappointed and to not be able to play the vans. And I was. And I was just climbing. And I was just to, you know, play the valet on the Wonder Years, you know, which I actually did get eventually. Sure, of course. Everyone knows. Everyone knows me from that role. But so the beginnings were particularly difficult, the fact that I was an actor and he was a writer and he was successful. Did you take it out on him at times? Oh, 100%.

Yeah, yeah. And he with me, he's sort of like, if you can't handle the disappointment, you're in the wrong business. Yeah, yeah. Those were the kind of pep talks I would get. You need to quit, you big fat baby. Leave me alone. Yeah, I mean, I've been through this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm on the other side of it. Yeah. And so we, it was rocky at the beginning. And he, and by the way, part of the reason I, he must have been so frustrated is because he saw me in, in unbelievable pain. And it's really hard to be at the beginning of a relationship with someone who's always miserable. Yeah.

Which I was. Yeah. As the years progressed, we stuck with it and with each other. And the, and he really encouraged me to be a writer. He was like, you know you have a talent for this thing and you're not doing it, which is crazy making. Like, you should be writing. And the more he encouraged me, the more I wrote. And the more I wrote, the more I was able to make a living.

And when I started to make my own living, I had a voiceover career that was really lucrative for about a decade. And I was writing television pilots, television pilots. And so once I started sort of having my own way, my own way in the business, it became easier for the two of us to live side by side and enjoy each other's successes and support each other and read each other's stuff and have kids and have kids yeah yeah because you've got to feel stability correct not everybody does it doesn't always work out that way and it's and it also doesn't always stay that way like we have ups and we have ups and downs and nobody can prepare you for that roller coaster which continues in our lives but um but only

Last year, I mean, literally last year, I think. No, Lisa and I and Don together, creators' show called Web Therapy, which Conan was on and brilliant on. And it was an improvised show that we owned and we would just come up with the outlines for and the actors would improvise. Yeah. And we sort of became a mini studio, Don, myself, and Lisa for about four years. And we made that show.

It was really heaven. Yeah. Because we owned our content and we controlled the narrative. And it was really fun. Didn't have anybody telling you what to do. Yeah. It was so rare. I don't even think we realize how good we had it, and we still miss doing it.

But it wasn't since then that I had ever been in a writer's room with Don. And then we both wound up in the writer's room of this mid-century modern last year on Hulu, this Nathan Lane show that Max Munchnik and David Cohen created. And it was the first time Don and I, after 30 years of marriage, were in a writer's room together. Yeah. And part of both cogs in a wheel that neither one of us created. And I think that the key to us being able to work together is that aspect of it.

That we were both working towards something that neither one of us created. So the stakes didn't feel so high. Right. When it's when it was my pilot or his movie, you know, we could rip each other's eyes out because we're not saying the right thing. That's my baby you're talking about. Yeah. I asked you for notes, but not notes like that. Yeah, yeah. That's so mean.

I have to write all over again. Yeah. I was like, that's right. It's all right. That's, I mean, that's the terrifying aspect of working with someone that you love. And who's so talented. The other thing is that my husband is so fucking talented. It drives me crazy.

Like, he's such a good writer that when I get a note from him that I don't agree with, I mean, who am I to disagree with somebody who's got that much talent? Yes. But he is wrong a lot of the time. Yes. No, it's, there are, there are amazing advantages to having a writer in the house who understands it all. But there are some disadvantages as well.

Because the actor in me. who just wants someone to tell me I look pretty, he has no patience for him. So that becomes a stumbling block. What kind of dad are you? I mean, and I'm always wondering because like show business to me is, I mean, it can be so silly. You know, it can be seemed so silly and so important at the same time. And I, and, you know, like my kids, my older kids, I have two older kids and one young kid, a six-year-old. And the older ones, I always was so relieved that they didn't give a shit about anything I did.

Yeah. You know, and I don't know. Do you kind of have that same relationship with your kids? Yeah, my kids don't. Every once in a while, there's like one thing that I'll do that for whatever reason they will watch. Yeah. But, I mean, I did 29 episodes of scandal, which was a game changer in my career. Yeah, huge.

Yeah. It changed my life. Yeah. They've never seen it. They couldn't care less. Yeah. They're over me. They're over me in the biggest way.

And it's a really good lesson in my own humility. Being parenting my adult kids has been a really grounding experience. Can I call it that? Of course you can. Because there's other averageships that I could use. But I think saying a grounding experience, let me put it this way. If there was an HR office at my house, I would be filing a complaint every single day. I mean, people are not allowed to talk to me or treat me the way that they do.

without some kind of legal recourse. And I put up with a lot. But listen, Don and I are very different parents, which we only learned after we were already parents. Of course, yeah. How are you going to know how you parent until there's a kid there? There needs to be away. I was telling you, there needs to be away.

Whoever's out there listening that can come up with a plan to put you through the paces before you bring those babies home. It's a very good idea. And a dog or a cat doesn't count. No, I've had 13. We're huge dog. We raise our dogs totally in unison, totally in sync, and we're total love for each other. The way we raise our kids is totally different.

And so I tend to be a little bit more of the, you know, the hard ass and the, I care more about everything. Yeah. I care more about everything. Yeah. Whether their shoes are tied and whether they're eating too much sugar and whether they get to school on time and finish their homework and do soccer. Like, I care a lot about all those things. And Don is a little bit more easygoing. But we yin-yang each other.

Like, this is the other problem. If one of us is going to really show up and care about getting the sunscreen on their bodies, the other one is going to be like, well, he's got it. So I don't need to do it. We don't need to both put sunscreen on them. Right, right. I'm like, why not? Double the layer of protection.

So I'm a bit of the Jewish neurotic. That's the way I was raised. And so I parent that way. Yeah. And Don is a little bit more. live and let live. He's 10 years older than I am and very much parents like an uncle or a grandparent. And he would be the first one to tell you. Be like, aren't the kids cute? But do you guys sort of compliment each other in a way that like sometimes his kind of laissez-faire attitude

where you think like I should be more like that? And vice versa, where he thinks like I should care more. No. No. Not vice versa. I sometimes acknowledge that, you know, letting it go. Yeah. And letting the kids sort of, they're not going to die just because, I do think that I recognize that a lot. Yeah. And he also, you know, when I, if I'm not around, you know, I've had to leave for work. I was in Puerto Rico for six months doing a TV show. And when he's at home, my, they're still alive. So my guess is that while I was away, this is, and this was a huge eye opener for me, because there's,

There's a part of me, I think, deep down, that wanted to believe that if I leave, everyone dies. It'll fall apart. Yeah. I mean, the ego of being, the arrogance of parenthood is huge. And I have recently learned with, not without help, that we're so powerless over so much of what these human beings need to experience. Even when they smash their faces against the wall, like there's growth that can come from that. And if you bubble wrap them so that you never get hurt, then you're not doing the the many favors. So the part of me that wanted to believe like no one's going to be able to live

without me. Learning that they can and they will and they did and they can't wait for you to leave again is not a bad lesson. And so I spend a lot of time these days trying to find ways to get out of that house. I found I found when, because my, I have a 25 year old son and a 20 year old daughter. And I found that them getting into college age and then beyond, like really starting to get to adulthood, was when I felt the most nervous and helpless and worried. Because it's like, well, the cake is baked. It's in a box and someone put it in their car and is driving it home. Like, there's nothing I can do anymore really. Like it's the, isn't that frustrating? The bird has flown. It's unbelievable.

Yeah, yeah. I still tell my 18-year-old, my son, both of my kids are adopted from the same birth parents, so they're biological full siblings, but we adopted them. So genetically, I recognize nothing in either one of them in every way. Yeah. And I will still my 6 foot 3 inch tall, straight, white, military-obsessed son who could squash me like a bug. Yeah.

Did you brush your teeth? I'm like, what the hell am I? asking my 18-year-old to brush his teeth. Right, right, right. But yeah, guess who pays his dental bills? Right, right, right. I do. Like, I don't want you to have cavities because it's going to fall on me.

Yeah. Once you're 25 or 26 and you have your own health insurance, let them rot. Let them rot. But I'm still like, are you, are you still in bed? You know, so I still feel like I have to parent, even though they're on the cusp of adulthood. Yeah, yeah. But so much of who they need to become as adults has to do with them not hearing.

for me, not, or doing the opposite of what they know I want them to do. And I'm learning as hard as it is, I'm learning how to talk less. Yeah. I have to remind myself that the self-sufficiency that I have had throughout my life, I attained by having to be self-sufficient. And I, having to be. Having to be. And I, and so it's easy, and I'm in a different position than my parents were. Yeah. mainly in being able to pay for things. Yeah. That I'm, you know, I mean, I got a job when I was a kid because I had, if I wanted to have any money to buy anything, I needed a job.

And you wanted things. And I, and I always was like, am I really going to say, I'm not going to give you any money? Maybe. Like, I know, I know. But now this, again, I know. It's too late. But it's like I do feel like that's where I didn't, I didn't instill enough self-sufficiency in them. Oh, me neither. Because I just, I also was like, they're my babies. I want to take care of them.

And I too. I want them to just focus on, you know, soccer. School and fun and, you know, and just live in their lives and not sweat them out with money. But then it's like, yeah, but I'm not doing them any favors. I did my kids no favors. I mean, because I have to say one of the things that drove me my whole life. And again, we're cut from very different cloth. Like so much of this. In the nature, nurture fight, I have learned that nature wins. Yeah. And nurture zero. So that's not 100% true, but it's pretty close.

Right, right, right. But I have learned how much of my own drive has come from my own desire to have, to succeed, to get a job, to be able to live in New York on my own, to be able to make a dream come true. Like, you need to feel the hunger. And one of the things I think that as a result of, I guess, our success was I don't think my kids. kids have felt true hunger, and I don't mean that in the literal sense, but like you really need to want something. It really helps to want something or to need something, because then you will do whatever it takes to get it. And once you build that muscle, it serves you for decades. And my kids are just like, you know, they don't need to, they don't need anything. Yeah.

And thankfully, you know, they're not looking through the Gucci catalog and asking me to buy them designer clothing. Right. They don't care. Right. But at the same time, I'd love it if they'd change their underwear. So there's some, there's a baseline somewhere. Yeah, yeah. And I do, I think about that. I think about, I wonder if we had just let them fend for themselves more. Yeah.

If they would have built a sense of self-sufficiency. And someone said recently, it was fascinating. I wonder where I heard this. It's, it's so crazy because it's so inadvertent. Like, we don't mean to do this. But when you offer help to, when, we offer help to our kids, oftentimes, we are sending them the message, whether we mean to or not, that we don't believe that they're capable of it. Yeah, that they need help because otherwise

they're going to fuck it up. Correct. And it's not what we're saying. No. But it's what they are digesting. Yeah. And you do that enough times. And they absolutely believe, well, I can't do this by myself because it's always been done for me. I clearly don't have, I clearly don't have what it takes. Yeah. And we have instilled in them that only by being helpful. And I'm only learning now way too late that it is not helpful. Yeah.

That what is most helpful is to let them stumble. Say, figure it out. Figure it out. You know, you're grown, you can figure it out. The other thing someone said to me in a meeting recently that I attend every weekend, that if for parents is don't deprive your kid of the privilege of suffering.

And I never in a million years had heard that phrased that way. The privilege of suffering, what are you talking about? My job as a parent is for them not to suffer. Isn't it? No, it's not. No, it's not. Don't stop them. Who knows what growth will come from their suffering. Yeah. That's a hard one. Don't inflict the suffering. You know, except sometimes. Yeah. Except when it's funny. Except when it's really funny. When there's a staircase and it's carpeted, so they're not going to get that. Are you okay? You are appearing in the highest stakes, which is coming out April 14th.

I am. It's a poker movie. It's a poker movie. And is that in theaters? Is that a streamer? Well, we're premiering at the Beverly Hills Film Festival on April 13th, but it's going right to Paramount Plus. It's a Paramount Independent film that I shot last year this time in Bulgaria with Seth Green and Kevin Dillon. Cool.

And it was really fun. Nice. I call it. It's a crazy movie. It's just a crazy movie. That's all I can say. We were indoors for 13 straight days, night shoots, playing poker. Wow.

But it is Willy Wonka meets The Shining. And that's the way I thought about it. Finally. Yeah. Right? It's just one of those. It's one of your everyday boy meets girl. Girl meets boy.

Yeah. There's oompa-loompers. Yeah. Well, there is, actually. It's very much like Willie Wonka meets the Shining in that it's, kind of dark and Stephen Kingish, but it's also a morality play. I'm kind of proud of it for what we made it for. Yeah. And the cast we got along so great. Great. So I'm excited for people to see that on Paramount Plus in April. Okay, dope. And then, of course, the comeback, which I am

enjoying. I'm happy it's back. I'm glad you are. Yeah, yeah. And looking forward to the, you know, it's, it is, it does. In this streaming world, these shows that come out one episode a week. Baby does not like that. I know. I know. I know, but I kind of, it gives you something to look forward to. No, grown up me appreciates it. Yes. But the baby and me is like, I got another hour before I gobble down a couple, three of these. I like that the theme of our whole conversation has been baby me versus adult male, which really is relevant in every area. I agree with you. I want to see them all at once. I kind of want a string of York peppermin batty's in front of me instead of one a week.

Yeah, yeah. But I'm kind of glad it's letting it sort of unraveled deliciously. Yeah, yeah. Well, Dan, thank you so much. Thank you. For coming in and talking to me. And I hope the show goes crazy. I hope you guys get a whole basket full of Emmys.

Thank you. I appreciate it. I'll be back next week with more of the three questions. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a team Coco production. It is produced by Sean Doherty and engineered by Rich Garcia. Additional engineering support by Eduardo Perez and Joanna Samuel, executive produced by Nick Leow, Adam Sacks, and Jeff Ross, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista,

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