The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Dave Holmes

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

Writer and TV personality Dave Holmes joins Andy Richter to talk about growing up in the midwest, coming out, finding your way in the industry, and more!

um hi andy richter here uh the three questions with andy richter that's what you're listening to and i am talking to an old friend of mine um he is a you know a bon vivant a culture vulture a uh a commentarian with golden pipes um and uh currently i mean currently you're doing like six or seven different things it seems like but a very busy man dave holmes hi hi how are you i'm good i'm good he even you sound like me in a general trying to tell the person i'm meeting with what i do it's well i mean but it is it's kind of and that's kind of one of the things i want to talk to you is that you do have kind of that unique career that's kind of writer kind of actor kind you know, opinion giver about pop culture things and about, you know, in both sort of, you know, from the sublime to the ridiculous, you know? I mean, how do you describe yourself?

What do you say? When somebody says, what do you do for a living? What do you say? That's the thing is that it's like, it's really hard to say. I mean, right now I say writer. Yeah. For the last many years,'ve said writer right um but because that's kind of the closest thing to it um because you're you're an editor at large meaning i am at at escoria magazine so yeah which means you you can work for escoria and you don't have to live in new york is

that what the at large that's exactly right yeah i don't have to live in New York. Is that what the at-large means? That's exactly right. That means I don't have to sit in meetings if I don't want to. But I do want to because the people I work with are great and smart and they keep me clued in. lockdown has been fantastic because now everything takes place on zoom and where I used to be the one disembodied voice on a speakerphone, not knowing who was speaking, not knowing when it was my time to like pipe in now it's awkward for everybody. And, and so it's like,

it's, it's been kind of nice. I feel more integrated into the team because it's weird for us all. But yeah, I mean, I guess writer, but also like host and actor and, you know, whatever. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I really don't know. And the thing of like host is not really a thing anymore.

Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry that my dog is going crazy. Oh, that's okay. that my dog is going crazy. Oh, that's okay. It's, you know, there was a thing as like a game show host at a time in our nation's history. And now it's, you know, now it's people who are like, ah, I'll do this for a couple months.

Yes, yes. In between seasons of my show or whatever. Or, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, I mean, as someone who, like a number, and this wasn't even like one of my agents or managers told me this. This was somebody I was having a meeting with. And this was, I mean, this might have been 10 years ago. And they said, well, you know, when there's a, when a new game show is coming up, he said, you're on the short list of people in town that can host a game show.

Which I was just like, what? I felt giddy because I was like, I never set out to do that, but wow, is that fun. Oh, God, yeah. The notion of being a game show host is like, I don't know, it's like being a beauty queen or something. Yes. It's so silly and fun.

And you just think like how does anyone try to do that and that's what we're going to talk to you about today you know okay it's it's weird and like you know i have hosted a game show or two in my day yep um and you know it's certainly it's fun to do yeah but you know you look at like an a Alex Trebek and like that is such a unique set of skills that that man had. Right, right. And it doesn't seem like they're looking to, well, it's a mess now, but like it doesn't look like they're looking for somebody who has similar skill set to do the thing and then let the show be the star of the show. Yes. They're trying to make it anderson cooper or blossom or yeah

whatever yeah somebody who's only famous it's very the executive producer who gave right right job yeah we and this is we're recording this on the morning that it was announced that mike richard is no longer the executive producer on that show which uh i mean my feeling was just that who would want to take the job and have the guy that was shamed out of the job be your boss? Be your boss. Like, how untenable was that? And I think that the people at Sony were aware of, like, how bad that looked. Because in this statement, they said we were hoping Mike had quit, but it didn't seem like that was going to happen.

No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. It's that, that whole thing is so strange. Like it's,

you know, if I know, I don't know, I don't know him well, but we, I think we had the same manager for a while and we've met a handful of times. And,

and it just seems like if you have that level, like if you're going into that job with, in the back of your mind, saying to yourself, the second Alex Trebek dies, I'm going to take over that job by hook or by crook. Like, then mind your P's and Q's on a podcast. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes, yes. cues on a podcast yes you know what i mean yes like if you're going to be that consumed with ambition go all the way yes and don't make anti-semitic remarks on a podcast seems seems elementary to me but whatever it does it does and i mean and i think because i have people i mean i have people i have people on almost a daily basis whether personal, you know, in my day-to-day

face-to-face life with people or online somewhere say, hey, are you up for the job of hosting Jeopardy? Why didn't you get a shot at hosting Jeopardy? Because I have a Jeopardy connection and that I've been on Celebrity Jeopardy twice. And, you know, and, you know know i just am kind of in jeopardy circles because there is like this jeopardy is its own little biosphere you know and i i've become friends with ken jennings and you know and i you know and i you know kind of knew alex trebek a little bit so wow uh people were asking me that and i'm i mean i would love to host jeopardy talk about the sweetest just that you know i mean the most tenured professor of show business you know yeah yeah but i just am like i have said way too many dirty things on twitter for them to be able especially now for them to

hire me like they need to get like basically someone that just woke up out of a 40 year coma to host that show yes because they need somebody that is spotless with no online history at all you know an android fresh out of you know like they've turned the last screw he's out of the lab yes directly to the stage yes yeah it's not they can't win well i also i also just think like uh you know they need to i just really feel the other thing that i feel about when they say when people say you should be the host of jeopardy i think i actually probably shouldn't because that job should probably go to a woman or a person of color of some kind of color just not another white guy i mean just it it's the time the only person i really do feel could be grandfathered in as a white person is

ken jennings because he just is indelibly synonymous yeah marked by jeopardy it's what gave him his career and he's you know undisputedly the best at it ever. And I thought he did a great job hosting. Other people, I just thought he did fantastic. So, you know. Yeah, I thought so too. I thought so too. It's a hard act to follow, obviously.

But it's also like how much of your own personality can you really put in that? You know, like the show is the show. Yes. So it's just you go in and you do your thing and you know you get a little bit of dignity and you just read you're reading you have that's the job is that you have to be able to read uh for a solid half hour in a you know in a way that that maintains the interest in little 30 second chunks and that's not you know that's i mean it's not the hardest thing in the world but it's not easy no it's it's it you can sound really stilted and really terrible at doing it you know and they

probably do a bajillion in a day they probably do like three to five in a day absolutely that was that was uh you know when i used to when i've been there to ask alex trebek like what's what's your life like and he's like actually, like he would put on his own roof on his house. You know, like he could do that. Like he was like, he's just like, I work on my house constantly. He said, because really he worked like maybe two months a year. And he said, I work a lot on my house and a lot of wine. A lot of wine.

That's what he told me. Bless him. Yeah, bless him. And also bless him too. He's done some amazing things that I've heard. I don't have like complete verification on this, but I've heard that like he has put millions of dollars into LA, into housing houseless people. Really?

Yeah. la into housing houseless people uh yeah like renting out a motel entirely for for as long as it takes and housing on house people like that's something that he's never knew and that yeah well because he didn't tout it you know it's just something that he did and it's something that as i think is as his he ended is near the end of his life. He's like, look, just take this money and give people a place to give them a roof over their heads, you know, among other things. So he was really, you know, he's a really wonderful guy. Yeah. You know, Canadian, but what can you do?

What can you do? Nobody's perfect. Right. Exactly. Now you're Midwestern. Speaking of Canada. I am. Canada is the Midwest of North America. I but he's perfect. Right, exactly. Nobody's perfect. Now, you're Midwestern. Speaking of Canada. I am. You know, Canada's the Midwest of North America.

I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. And you're from Missouri, right? I grew up in St. Louis, yeah. In St. Louis. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

You know, it's weird, and I think Chicago is kind of part of this, too. Back when, like, regional hits were a thing, you know you know song would be popular in boston but not in you know baton rouge or whatever uh there were certain canadian things that somehow made it down to like chicago and st louis absolutely like a lot of a lot of terrible songs got played on the radio that were like big in canada yeah and st louis yep And there was, I can't think of it, but you're definitely right. And I had family in Michigan and Michigan actually would get Canadian TV. So they were like aware of, you know, there was, there was like a long time, like really boring soap opera called like the beach comers,

I think that went on forever. And the people in Michigan knew about it. It's kind of, you know, it's like guiding light for Canada, but you know, of course it's, you know, it takes place out in a woodsy area. It had to be sort of rugged. Yeah. Oh, I need to research the beach comers. Yeah. But yeah, you're right. Regional stuff. Like I remember, you know, when I was a kid, Bob Seger would sell out stadiums in the Midwest, but you know when i was a kid bob seger would sell out stadiums oh yeah in the midwest but you know

he played clubs in new york and la sure and and i felt like that first time i ever went to a sporting event in new york city and they played a billy joel song and the entire place erupted into spontaneous applause made me realize billy joel's regionality because, you know, nobody, Billy Joel was Billy Joel in Chicago, but nobody really, you know, whatever, Billy Joel. But then you go to the East Coast and it's like, the man had been handed down from God for us. Yeah.

I just interviewed Sammy Hagar and he was like, oh, you're from St. Louis. You love me. And I was like, oh, okay, sure. It's a leap, but I mean, yeah, you know, but yeah, there's like the classic rock radio format is very big in St. Louis. And, and, and I guess that is one of the strongholds of like his popularity is St. Louis, Missouri. Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. You get to know that.

You get to know like, well, when I play Oklahoma City, not that many people show up. But in St. Louis. Oh, forget it. They go crazy. The Red Rocker. Yeah. So what was your household like in St. Louis? Like your folks and siblings?

Mother and father married 67 years. Wow. Yeah. Happily, though? Very. Oh though very oh all right crazy happily wow yeah like to the very end it's just amazing yeah um he would like you know my dad would pull out the chair for my mom and give her a little give her shoulders a little squeeze and all that kind of thing they were they were very yeah very perfectly suited met you know as teenagers basically and um and we're together my father passed in 2016 um and my mom's still around my uh and i have two older brothers i've

uh they're eight and ten years older so it was a family unit was off and running and then eight years later one of a caboose uh you know a surprise little caboose yeah yeah and everyone's still in st louis everyone's within a couple miles of one another do you make it back very often and is that enjoyable i just went back for the first time since everything since like 2019 yeah last month yeah and uh it is good it's it's good it's um. It's, it's good. It's you know, it's, it's a weird thing to, you know, I grew up pretty Catholic all like, you know, Catholic schools all through, well, really all through college. Yeah. And the people who stayed in St. Louis, I have turned into people.

I don't like a lot of my friends growing up. I now have a drink with and don't really recognize. Yes. You know, it's, there's a, not, you don't mean physically.

You mean, you mean ideologically. I mean, ideologically. Yeah. And just, you know, there,

there's like a, they've put on a persona, like a costume. Yeah. In some cases. And it's like, and it's difficult to break through the person who i thought that i knew yeah in the 80s and 90s yeah um because you know things have

taken over um so it's weird going home um but but it's good i mean it's good going home it was good to see it was good to hug my mother after a year and a half of yeah yeah yeah yeah i i i did the same thing in in june i guess i went back to chicago for the first time since the covid shutdown and uh and i went back just recently for a funeral and you're right it is all these people that i feel like there's just you know there's just been this shift where you might've thought that all these kind of conservative air quotes, regular old folks, meaning,

you know, just sort of rural suburban white people, you know, that they were, they were conservative, but they were good hearted. Right. And the last few years has kind of like laid the bear that maybe a lot of them aren't that good hearted.

And it's really weird. It really feels, you feel this hostility. I went, like I said, I went to my uncle's funeral in a funeral home. And this was just three, four weeks ago, maybe. At least half the room, not masked in it, you know, inside and,

you know, lots of elderly people and lots of kids and just like no masks and just feeling like, you know, I don't know. It just like, like this, like,

that's just, that's like not ideal. Well, it is ideological, but it's just kind of like, it's become ideological. Yeah. It just feels like there's just, that's like not ideal. Well, it is ideological, but it's just kind of like. It's become ideological. Yeah. It just feels like there's some sort of like real badness, like a real sort of, you know, hard hardness.

Or that it's, they are so inundated with media that says that we are bad. Yes. You know, that like, um, all of the, you know, all these things that don't,

by the way, belong together necessarily at all. But like, you know, things like taking fucking COVID seriously or taking climate change seriously, or, you know, believing that queer people should have the same rights as straight people or whatever, have all been, like, tied together in this kind of liberal agenda.

And so, you know, people are pummeled all day long by, like, friendly voices telling them that people who believe those things hate them. Yeah. You know, so then they dig in, and I don't know. It is, you know, same thing. Went to dinner with some friends. You know, and we all know it's fucking theater, but you had to do the thing of, like, you know, putting on a mask when you walk through the door

and then taking it off, and you get to the table and all that kind of thing, and whatever. It's all goofy. And in this moment, there was about to, like, a mask mandate was about to be reinstated. And everyone's grumbling about it. And these are, like, my contemporaries. And I said, you know, nobody likes wearing a mask. I'm not wild about wearing a mask. But, like, what do we lose by doing it for a few more weeks while this thing tapers off again? And an old friend of mine looked

at me in the face and said our liberty and it was and it was like my napkin's not on my lap yet you know my like my seat isn't fully at the table and it's like i legitimately don't know where to go from there yeah yeah i don't i don't know how where our conversation goes yeah our freedoms like seatbelts, like my freedom, you know, like where's seatbelt, like speed limits, dumb shit. Right. Or fucking pants. Yeah.

Or the polio vaccine. I would like to take my pants off in this restaurant. I can't do that. I can't do that. I am not free to not have pants on in this restaurant. And I think we can all agree that I shouldn't have the freedom to not wear pants in a fucking restaurant. And a pantsless you wouldn't kill anybody. Right.

As far as I know. You wouldn't catch my pantslessness. As far as I know. That would be, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. So my high school, our mascot was the Rebels. We were the Priory Rebels, right?

And like when I was in high school, you know. Like full on like Confederate kind of iconography kind of stuff or just clothes. The uniforms had, I believe at one point had Confederate flags on them. But that was still, I'm pretty sure it was up in the weight room. I think, you know, in the gym there was a mural of like a Confederate general and all that kind of thing. Yeah. Which we thought nothing. I mean, I look back and I'm mortified that I didn't think anything of it.

But I didn't think anything of it. So after all the George Floyd, you know, 2020 stuff, the student council was like, we can't, we're not the rebels anymore. We can't do this. We can't do this. I'm led to believe that it was like a student-led initiative, but it could have been the priests. I don't know. Yeah. But I'm pretty sure it was the students who were like, we got to change our fucking name.

You guys, this is crazy. And when was this? This was 2020. This was last year. Wow. So it was a whole thing. And they, you know, like the student body weighed in and alumni weighed in on like what the new one would be. It was super controversial.

Like a lot of alumni, you know, whatever, like lost their minds. A big like fundraising email went out to my class. It was a very small school. It was like 50 guys in my class. And an email went out to all of us about, you know, and said the day of giving or whatever, and let's beat the class of 78 or whatever. And several people, several old friends were like,

they don't get a dime until it changes back to the rebels. And, and it's like, why, why, why, what do you win? What do you win from this?

What do you win from this? And you know, what, what, I don't, I do you win from this and you know what what i don't i don't fucking and if you like the school if you actually like want the school to to survive why do you want to saddle it with this racist ass name yeah yeah as it moves forward in this what like it's things are going to change and also it's just the name of the mascot of a high school mascot yeah you know well how much of your life is you know how much of your identity is really imprinted by it's just yeah it's very silly there was a there was a similar controversy online you know that i was reading about online and it made me go look up because there's a town actually not far.

There's an Illinois town not far from St. Louis called Pekin, Pekin, Illinois. And up until like the freaking 90s, I think, it was the same sort of, and had like a racist caricature as their mascot for years and years and years. Because I remembered it because I think we played him in football once, you know, like in it, cause they're far from us, but like in a, in a tournament sometime. And I was at the time,

I was like, how did, how, what? And I, you know, and believe me, I was not woke. I, you know, I grew up in a small town with small town people so i was not exposed to a lot of forward thinking but i knew at least that was bad you know yeah and and they pushed it and it people still really angry and they still change it to like the dragons to like maintain some sort of you know gringo idea of of chinese-, you know? And if you read about it, because I read a couple articles, the defenders were saying, like, it was about the industriousness.

Like, no, I don't think it was. I don't think it was. I don't think that the caricature that I saw as a kid for your mascot was about industriousness. No. No. Also, that's insulting. Yeah. Oh, it's all just like, know no you know so that's insulting it's yeah oh it's oh it's all just like well you know that's you know a racist stereotype like well there's part of it that's

real nice about a racist stereotype like you know like spicy food that's nice like no no that's that doesn't count that doesn't count the other stuff kind of you know outweighs the others you know what you're saying about somebody yeah god yeah it's uh it's really crazy and it's the it boils down to people who are like who resist change are always like everyone's too sensitive and it's like you yeah you yeah yeah yeah yes everyone is you are the one who is being too sensitive yeah yeah everything changes everything changes yeah with it yep yep yeah exactly what is so going home is a little like that yes can't you tell my loves are growing now was your household i mean was were your parents fairly conservative i mean i know catholic and everything but i think yeah there's people i know

so many catholic you know kids that grew up catholic that were sort of you know like there was they weren't crazy about abortion and stuff, but other than that, they were sort of Kennedy like, you know, was that your folks? People are crazy about abortion. Yeah, they sure are. Oh,

they love it. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty, pretty conservative. Yeah. Pretty conservative. Yeah.

Yeah. Not like, you know, hateful. Although, you know, I, although I,

I do wonder, I, you know, when, when Rush Limbaugh passed do wonder i um you know when when rush limbaugh passed my mom was like oh your dad loved him and i was like i never knew that yeah so i i think i think there were certain things that he maybe was like these are conversations i won't be having right with our young progressive queer son yeah yeah but but yeah pretty pretty conservative it's Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's, I have like friends, kids and nieces and nephews who are in high school now. And it's like, they dress, talk, act exactly like we did. Yeah.

It's pretty wild. I mean, I'm sure there are some differences, but it's pretty, it's pretty wild. And it was, it was a, it was a very, it was a place where I didn't see a whole lot of different interpretations of adult maleness. Yeah. There were kind of, there was like one. Yeah, yeah. Was that hard, you know, growing up gay? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just like, I mean, was it just fear? Did you just feel fear or was this kind of just waiting it out? Like, I'm going to get out of here kind of feeling. It was a kind of just waiting it out like i'm gonna get out of here kind of feeling it was a it was a little of both i mean it was definite constant terror you know because um you know going to like small schools especially like all boys schools everybody's looking for their angle you know yeah it's like if you if you slip once that defines you for the rest of your high

school career so there was a lot of like policing my, my voice and gestures and all that kind of thing, which continued far longer than it should have. But also in the back of my mind, I was like, I, I am not, I'm not at least,

I'm at least not coming right back here after I go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go for college. I'm going to, I'm going to spread my wings and like individuate myself somewhere else I don't think I even thought of it in those terms it was

just like I gotta I gotta spread my wings somewhere else yeah for a little while was it a try was it in your mind that at some point you'd be coming out like or did oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah you always knew like that that was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for a few years, I mean, I definitely dated girls and all that kind of thing. And I think maybe in the back of my mind, I thought it would be like a phase, like the fact that I was nuts about boys would be like a phase. Yeah. But basically, after a while, it was like, eh, it isn't. after a while it was like, eh, it isn't. And the weird thing is like being gay ceased to be a source of anxiety for me kind of early, but seeming gay continued to be a source of great anxiety for a long time. Because, you know, I don't know, like one, like the sex part of it,

people are at least a little bit scared of, you know, um, if you, if you're like sort of a, uh, an effeminate boy or a boy with like non-traditional male interests, then people can make fun of you, you know, or you're, you're diminished or you're defined by that one, you know, thing. Um, And that scared me to death. Yeah. But yeah, but like the actual like notion that I would, you know, grow up and settle down with a man stopped being a scary thing. About what age do you think?

I don't know, college. Oh, okay. College. Yeah, yeah. Which is old, actually, now that I say it. Well, but you know, you can't, you know, I mean, well, what do I know? But, I mean, you know, I can't imagine. It's hard to say, you know what, I think I am going to buck the entire system.

You know, like, I think I am going to, like, step out here and, you know, go against the grain of what every one of my loved ones wants for me. Or at least that's what it probably feels in your mind, you know, go against the grain of what every one of my loved ones wants for me. Or at least that's what it probably feels in your mind, you know? Yeah. Go where literally I have no role models for adulthood. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? I literally, I don't know what gay adult men look like or do. Or how they settle down or what, like, literally we know none of them.

No. And, yeah, that was wild. Yeah, because- But also to, like, to also be- Like literally we know none of them. No. And yeah, that was wild. Yeah, because- But also to like, to also be the butt of every joke. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it is, homophobia is the subtext of every male interaction, especially when you're young and especially- 20, 30 years ago.

And when it is in the subtext, it's the text. Yeah. You know? So yeah, that was, it years ago. And when it is in the subtext, it's the text. Yep. You know? So, yeah, that was, it was wild. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's one of those things that, like, coming out the other side of it is like,

oh, thank God. Yeah. Thank God. You know, I'm, I'm so like, I feel so fortunate, um, because I had to be resourceful and I had to like figure out what my own adult life was going to be on my own. And that's, that's a good thing to have to do. Yeah. Now, uh, well, I'll go back to, um, more career things, but when you came out was there i mean what if i may ask what what was it like with your family and you know um it was uh okay i mean not it wasn't bad yeah you know i didn't

get like thrown out or or you know disowned or uh anything like that but um but's, you know, a lot of your identity in this part of the world is about what the neighbors will think, you know? And so I wasn't like the family secret or anything like that, but, you know, my mom started using the word boyfriend and whispering it maybe five years ago. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She referred to him as my roommate and I was like, huh?

We've been together 11 years by this point. And I said, it's not my roommate and she's like what do you want me to say boyfriend and i said yes yes yeah actually yes because that's what he is so yes right right right and it's okay that we're in public you know like it's not anyway so it was a lot of you know we accept you but you know go easy. Yeah. So I can see that. Yeah. I can see that. I mean, cause definitely, cause my dad is gay and came out when I was to my mom when I was four and that's what broke up their marriage. And I remember my dad, well, he lived in Bloomington, Indiana. He taught, or he still does he lives in bloomington

indiana which is a college town and a very sort of liberal you know like just one of those little islands of of you know like i once referred to austin texas as like sitting next to a gay romney a gay cousin at a fun gay cousin at a romney wedding you know like like you know like just like you you have the skewed perspective of what this family is like, because you're right next to somebody that's really fun and cool, but Oh no, no, they are not representative. Same thing with Bloomington. Bloomington is not representative of, of Indiana. So it was kind of, you know, he could be more outwardly gay in terms of like,

you know, just whatever, you you know like wearing a shirt that you know says gay pride on it or something you know yeah or and you know or just like being sort of like you said just like differentiating from the male the male sort of archetype that that i was around in my hometown. But I specifically one time remember being in Springfield, Illinois, my brother and I, I was in grade school. He's maybe junior high. And my dad, we were, went to the movies and my dad saw a friend of his, a gay friend of his,

who is, he knew from some, from Indiana, but they both happened to be from Springfield and they saw each other and they gave each other a big hug and a kiss on the mouth in the middle of the movie theater you know and this is probably 1976 and my brother and i just kind of feeling like not not like you gross but just you know like paralyzed with like, Oh my God, he just did that here. Like, it's not like you, this is not Bloomington. This is Springfield. This is the, you know, the movie theater at the mall and, you know, and it's, but it's like, you know, and I mean, I wasn't like, I, you know, and like in retrospect, even recently, you know, and even like, you know, very shortly after that, I was like, well, it's, you know, it's not a big deal. You know, it's like, it's okay.

It's not, you know, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just, it's, you know, you do, you get all those eyes looking at you. Sure. And what are they thinking? And like. Yeah. And yeah, that's gotta be, that's a stew for you. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because, because the thing is, you said not, oh, gross, but ew, gross. Because it's still your dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's still your dad. Well, now, if it had been a big passionate kiss, it might have been one thing. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, anything that, you know, indicates that your parents are sexual beings at all. Is disgusting. Is mortifying. Yes, yes. And, like, repulsive to a kid yeah yeah uh and then you know and then there's the the you know gay and rural aspect of it yeah yeah you know so how i mean how how was i mean was that was that difficult for you that particular instance

or just high high school no just a general, it wasn't because he told I've talked about a little bit on here before. I think it was harder for my brother. My brother was three years older when he told us I was maybe 10. I think my brother was, you know, I, yeah, exactly. Already into kind of, you know, becoming more of a adult sexual being. So I think it impacted him more. It could also just be the difference of our personalities. But, you know, my dad, he told me and my brother, and we were at my grandparents, and he said, we're going to the mall. Like, really weird, like abruptly like okay and then we drove to a park and we parked in a parking spot and then my dad gave us the whole talk and told us and at the end he started

driving back to my grandparents and i was like wait wait aren't we going to the mall like i was like that to me was like okay you're gay all right fine check cool that down yeah now wait a minute we're not going to the mall i was gonna get a corn dog what come on you know um and that was kind of what it was and i knew enough to not make a big public announcement that my dad was gay but but in junior high, I started telling my close friends, you know, cause they would see him, you know, a couple of times a year. And I did never, it was never a big worry to me. It was never, I mean, and I think I knew pretty early on and, you know, that, you know, the only thing keeping me from being gay was my heterosexuality.

You know, I just kind of was like, that doesn't strike me. You know, you get your teenage sort of just general 360 horniness, you know, that you kind of get past. But I, you know, it was always, you know, I just, it never, it was never a big deal. I mean, there's all kinds of other things that impact. My dad and I are estranged and they yeah his gayness is it does for at least for me has nothing to do with anything about it you know

um um but i think he did you know he had a he came out of the closet angry and i think has kind of held on to that anger for a long time and held held onto the anger of not being able to who he wanted to be for a long, long time. Which I can't say, you know, it's his life. It's his journey. But for anybody, the general sort of wellness sort of advice you'd give to them is you got to let go of that anger. You know, you got to at some point, you got to at some point let go of that. And also, too, look around. It's a different world.

It's not the 50s. You know, it's just the fucking progress. You know, just to think that Barack Obama was too embarrassed to say or to I shouldn't say embarrassed. Just a count made a calculated decision to say I'm for civil unions, but gay marriage is pushing it. When you everybody was like, you know, he's fine with it, you know. And then but now it's like it like it's a fact of life. It just is there. And it was tried to use as a wedge for people in elections to great effect. Yeah.

But it just – it's just – it's this – it's a wave of acceptance. It's just – it's coming. Right. Just get – and also because it's right. It's just – it's right to let people who they want to be. Yeah, it's coming. Why? Just get, and also because it's right. It's just, it's right to let people who they want to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course it's right. But I understand your father's anger.

Yeah. Because you do, the world is different now, but you bring with you the world that you grew up in. Yeah. You know, and I like I'm angry about the knots that I tied myself up in in my adolescence. So as not to like appear gay. So as to like, you know, fly beneath the radar. Yeah. And all of the things that like not only I tried to change about myself, but I internalized and began to believe about what is and is not good or what is and is not acceptable for a man to do or think or be or say, and like all that shit. And it held on for so fucking long. And it's like, and it cost

me years of my life. And I'm, and I'm still angry about that. Like I'm, I am in therapy, you know, to talk about it. And I, and I, i write about these kinds of things and i i feel like i'm i hope i'm using my anger well yeah but but your dad grew up in a version of that that was 10 times stronger yeah because i at least even knew what gay people were kind of yeah yeah i don't know any but i kind of knew that they existed somewhere right and and you also kind of yeah yeah i don't know any but i kind of knew that they existed somewhere right and and you also kind of were under there was there was the popular opinion that it should be acceptable yeah i mean that didn't like really take hold until the 90s until i was like an adult um yeah but i don't don't you think like well i mean in my milieu anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, at least because, you know, in small towns, you watch TV and you see you see things on TV that aren't going to happen in your small town for another 30 years. You know what I mean?

And but I feel like at least well. I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm maybe I'm looking back with rose colored glasses, but I feel like there at least was you know the notion growing up in a place where everyone knew racism was bad and that you shouldn't use the n-word but you know i mean come on we're still gonna tell jokes you know what i mean right and but they know it's bad it's you know most of the time when i heard the n-word as a child it was whispered like even though you know like so it's like you're using that word but you know it's bad so why not just not use it you know and i think and i don't know you're already changing your voice yeah yeah so say something

else yeah and i guess but i you know yeah also you know it this can't be the importance this can't be overstated if it really was like the mid seventies or whenever it was that your father came out, then, you know, AIDS explodes in 1981. And I just like, I can't, I am so lucky to have, you know, whatever, 1981, I was 10. So I wouldn't really be like sexually active until much later that decade. And we knew kind of what to do and what not to do, which doesn't mean I wasn't paranoid and having constant panic attacks and feeling in my lymph nodes and whatever at all times.

But it was like, you know, if I were five years older, I would have made mistakes that would have killed me, you know? Yeah. And, you know, and for someone who's delayed their, you know, real honest life and then finally gets to do it. And then it's like, oh, also it can kill you. Yeah, yeah. It's like, God, I can't, I can't imagine.

You know? Yeah. I can't imagine. And I'm sorry. I'm not here to be your father's defense lawyer. No, I, no, and I understand. And I'm sorry to, for me to, if it seemed like I was saying like like I was saying like, well, it was more acceptable than you're letting on. Because what the fuck do I know?

No, no, no. And my dad has said about AIDS, he said he was lucky to live in a small town, in a relatively small town. He said if he'd lived in a major metropolitan area, he probably would have died. I mean, that's, it's, you know. Yeah. It would fill you with anger. Yeah. That would be destructive to your relationships later in life.

Good Lord. Yeah, yeah. You're absolutely right. Yeah, of course. You know, it's, you know, it's easier than it should be for me to forget about what that was like and what that was about and how that was handled when it was happening neglect how much you know just the neglect that went on that just let people die and die and die yeah you know yeah yeah for years and years i mean yeah just inaction yeah um yeah it's it's shocking and so now so now you know to get back to fucking people getting furious about masks. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, if this were, you know, when we see these like anti-mask, not even anti-mask mandate protests, anti-mask as a concept protests. Right, right. It's like, if this were 1988 and it were a bunch of gay men talking about, we don't want to wear condoms, you would see it for what it is. Yes. The world would see it very clearly for the selfishness and decadence that it is. Yes, yes. You know what I mean?

And they would have no patience for it whatsoever. Oh, they... Why we're indulging this fucking nonsense, I do not understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't understand. I don't actually have to respect your choice in this regard. I actually don't at all.

I don't... It's just, I think, you know, it's white people are, we know we're not going to be in charge for, you know, like the coming decades. It's just, we're not going to be in charge. And even the supposed, like, ones on the right side, the right thinking ones, I find still, like, as the years go by, the dismantling of my own sort of, like, comfort in sort of what I don't have to consider and what I don't have to my life because you don't, you know, if you never told about something or never exposed to something, odds are you're not going to really recognize it or acknowledge it. Right. Right. Yeah. But anyway, let's get back to you. This is, yeah. Okay.

Well, no, you go ahead. Finish that. Well, no, it's just, I was going to say, say, I liken to the very end of Fatal Attraction. You know what I mean? Where it's like, you're certain that Glenn Close is dead in that bathtub. Yeah, yeah. And then she pops out. that will like by that will like necessarily require cooperation and sharing. And for the voice of the straight white male to be a voice in the chorus and

not the lead singer. And, and it's like having to share or having to share means that you also have to admit areas where you have been wrong. Yeah. And that is a very difficult thing to do. And it's like, and it's not going to happen without a fight. And what we're seeing now is that like death spasm.

That like, that fight. It's just fucking fists going out in every direction. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. I can't remember that there was a statistic. I need to look it up so that I can have it on hand. It's a writer. It's a political writer and operative.

He made this statement on TV that white men, I think, are something like 20% of the population. And 20 years ago, they held 90% of the power. There's some calculation they do. They're the same percentage, and now they're like 80% of the power, like, you know, there's some calculation they do now they're the same percentage. And now they're like 80% of the power and they're going fucking crazy. You know what I mean? Because they lost 10% of the power and it for 20% of the population. And if you put that just,

you know, if you just like made that some sort of algebra problem and say, you know, like it was the, you made the population, you know like a dr seuss thing like people with stars on thars you know like like people with stars on them aren't get it you would just be like well that's not fair that's just wrong that's so such a you know a small slice of people get to be so much in control and it just doesn't you know, a small slice of people get to be so much in control. And it just doesn't, you know, it's like until that changes, that shit's going to be fucked up.

And until those with stars on theirs and, you know, white men start to let it go. And like I've always said too, the basic fucking Sunday school daycare thing of share, teaching children to share. It's just sharing, you know? There's plenty to go around. Just share.

And until that happens, it's, yeah, it's going to be bad. Yeah. You know? And I wish, you know, yeah, if they weren't fucking up the planet, that would be nice. But anyhow,

you get out of college. Now that we've lost everyone who doesn't agree with us. Yes. Well, I, you get out of college. Now that we've lost everyone who doesn't agree with us. Yes. Well, bye. Can't you tell my loves are growing? You get out of college.

Yeah. Where does this be? Where does, you're like, what are you going to do with yourself? Well, I go to New York. Yeah. I go to New York. Um, and I get a job in advertising. Uh-huh. Um, and I, I worked at Saatchi. The gateway drug to show business. The gateway drug to show business. That's kind of exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's,

it just felt right to me in some way. I was thinking I might go to graduate school for like to, to be a clinical psychologist, but I was like, I'm going to go, I need to be in the real world. I need to not be in school. I need to like, I felt like I had lessons I needed to learn. I needed to do them on my own. I moved to New York, got a job at Saatchi and Saatchi in the media department and did that for a while. And it was, of course, it was great. Like it was, I was suddenly surrounded by, like, I felt like such a freak show my entire life. And then suddenly I was in New York City and I was surrounded by like different points of view and different, you know,

different, just a million different types. And I was like, ah, I am, I am one of many, you know, I'm not,

I am not this weird thing that I'm like to be ashamed of or whatever. I'm like, I've kind of felt like the normal one for the first time in my life, you know? Yeah. And which was super like, that was unbelievably powerful. Yeah. And I started doing improv and stuff.

Oh, wow. Yeah, there was, UCB had not started yet, but there was, there were like some acting schools had like an improv program or whatever. And I took one of those and started doing improv shows and sketch shows and all of that. And it was, you know, we would perform in venues that were like not venues. They were like bars. Yeah, yeah.

But there would be a stage in the corner and nobody showed up at the bar to see improv. Right. But we would do it anyway. Yeah. And, or we'd be at like, don't tell mama or the duplex or whatever. And that was like, oh, this is, this is living. Yeah, yeah.

This is like, I don't know how to make money doing this, but I love it. Yeah. And I, yeah, it was, it was. But I'm young, I'm young. I got a day job and at night i get to have this much fun with my people you know with my people yeah yeah yeah with people who um like want to spend their time this way yeah you know who who like um who aren't aren't like stand-up

comics are very funny also uh some are but like it's not, it's not like that's a, that's a very selfish kind of, you know, I want all the attention sort of thing. Like there's something about improv and sketch comedy that's like naturally cooperative and it attracts a certain kind of person who I was like, these are my people. Yes. Um, I was never good, but I did it for a long, long time. And then at some point in here, like you, a runner up and you want to be a BJ. Is that like, is that the first kind of, is that like a big turning point for you? That was it. That was it. Yeah.

By that time I had left advertising because i was i was in my mid-20s i was in new york i had a bunch of roommates i was living fairly cheaply or as cheaply as it can be done in new york and and i was like i'm young i don't have to think about anyone but myself i don't like my day job i can actually make more money temping and oh wow that's that jesus christ sucks yeah yeah well but you know you can actually make a lot of money temping and oh wow that's that jesus christ sucks yeah yeah well but you know you can actually make a lot of money temping but it's just you have to pay for your like insurance and yeah yeah yeah you don't get benefits but um yeah so i i had left i was i was i was kind of still in the world of advertising i was just temping within it and uh and there was an audition

at um oh and i had like given myself like two years to try to segue into some sort of entertainment job. I didn't know what. And, uh, they had an open call at MTV and I went and, um, when I got there and there were all these cameras and like logos for it. And it was like, this is going to be, this is not an audition. This is going to be an event. This is going to be like a thing that they're gonna you know put on tv and whatever which they did uh it was like a three-day event viewers called in to vote for who they wanted to be the next vj or whatever it was not me but because i had had a few years of of like hustling in New York. And, and I saw how great this opportunity was. I was like, I am going to get a job here. Like somehow I, you know, all the people that I met through that process, I got everyone's business card and I was like, I'm just going to keep calling and emailing until they tell me to stop or give me a job. Yeah. Because it's too good an opportunity not to, like, be shameless about taking full advantage of. And also, it's good for you. It's like you have a skill set that it's right in your alley or right up your alley, you know?

Yes. Yeah. And so, yeah. So, I got a job. I was, like, you know? Yes. Yeah. And, and so, yeah, so I, I, I got a job. I was like writing weekend specials and stuff. And then just because I was around the office and I had been part of want to be a VJ and people I think had kind of a,

like a warm feeling toward me because I had not won. And, and, and, you know, I think they, I don't know, wanted to find something for me. So I screen tested for a show and got it and the show got picked up. And then like MTV is the kind of thing where once you're in, once they trust you, they're just, you're just busy all the time. Right. And a lot of it is-

You're going to spring break house and, you know. Yeah. Yeah. You're spending the summer in the Bahamas, you know, or whatever. On the popper's boat. Yeah. Sure. It's, yeah know, or whatever. On the popper's boat. Yeah. Sure. It's yeah. It was wild. It was,

I became very busy there very quick, which was good. And that was like, that was the first, like doing, okay. Right when I first started, when we were doing the pilot for this, my, what would become my first show, there was a 90 minute live block called MTV live. And, um, it, the regular hosts were both doing something else. I forget what it was. So some high,

like some higher up at MTV, who is 28, um, calls me, uh, or calls the producer on set with me and is like, put Dave on. I get on. He's like, we need someone to host the live show today.

Can you do it? And I was like, sure. And they just put me like, I've not done this ever, but they put me on live television for 90 minutes. And just in the clothes you wore to work? No, there was a wardrobe department. Oh, it was wardrobe. Matt Pinfield and I were similar sizes.

So I think I borrowed one of his bowling shirts or, you know, gas station attendant shirts. And, but yeah, it was on, they just like put me on live TV for 90 minutes. And I was like, I was too, it was too insane for me to be nervous. It was all too surreal for me to be nervous. me to be nervous yeah it was all too surreal for me to be nervous and i immediately was like i like i am doing something that i i know how to do yeah like i never fully had the feeling of like oh i'm this is what i do i yeah like i feel good doing this yeah um it was it was like the perfect job for me. Much later, I would find out I have, you know, what I always suspected, which was a really severe case of ADHD.

So like, so live TV is the perfect job for somebody whose attention is all over the place because attention has to be all over the place. But it was like that, doing that job, that like super high stress job was the first time I felt really calm in my life. And I think, because I, you know, having, like I, in many ways, my job is being on television.

And that's from hours and hours, like literally thousands of hours of being on television for me. And there isn't any like particularly like I'm a dramatic actor. I'm this. I just am on television. Like that's a skill set that I've acquired that I kind of had in me already, but also just, you know, in that repetition kind of way. Now I can do that. Like I can drop into things and be on television and

be on, you know, be interviewed and be all these things. And you do like, you know, I think, cause early on, I kind of had that same sense, like, oh, I'm suited to this. And it, and it's something that follows a little bit afterwards is not everyone is. And I, and I need that kind of, like, I need to feel like that the things that I'm good at are, like, I'm not just like everybody else. Like, you know, I mean, for some reason, because I, you know, to discount what I can, my own skill set, I just have this natural discounting of it. But when I am, when it's shown to me, like, no, no, not everybody can do this thing that you can do. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, then I, you know, I don't know. I'm just more comfortable accepting a check for it or something or, you know, not feeling like, you know, I think it's basically an insurance policy against imposter syndrome.

You know, against feeling like, oh, at any minute, somebody's going to come in here and tell me I don't deserve this because it's like, no, no. I mean, I'm not saying I'm a brain surgeon, but I can be on fucking TV. You know what I mean? Yeah. And yeah. And you are. Yeah. And it's so I think we I'm very much the same way.

And I think some of it is Midwesternness. Some of it is is, I think, a hedge against show business ego. Yeah. You know, because- Which is Midwestern-ness. Yeah. Yeah. It's because you have to,

you can't do this job without thinking, I am good at this job. Right. But it's a slippery, or it feels like a slippery slope to go from, I am good at this job to, I am better than everyone else because I'm good at this job. I can do no wrong.

Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, a thing I noticed very early in my TV career was like people were like my coworkers at MTV laughed at my jokes a lot more than my coworkers in advertising. And I was like, it hit me very quickly. Like, I didn't just get funnier. Just magically. It hit me very quickly. Like I didn't just get funnier. Just magically.

I became a person who, um, if I'm in a bad mood can slow things down or make everybody else's day. Yeah. Not as good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like, I'm someone to coddle a little bit. Like I didn't become funny. I became somebody to coddle. And, and so you're surrounded by that because it's just, it's, it's in everyone's interest to keep you in a good mood if you're the one who's on camera. Right, right.

Um, so if you don't, I think you got it at a time in life where you were able to understand that. Yes. Um, many do not. You're the balloon that the kids don't let touch the ground because. Yes. Yeah. You know, you keep, you know, the game of keeping that balloon floating because it's tragedy if it hits the ground. Yeah. Exactly. ground because yes yeah you know you keep you know the game of keeping that balloon floating because it's tragedy if it hits the ground yeah exactly exactly um but yeah yeah it's i for me

like i got very addicted to the feeling of at the end of like specifically a live show um feeling like wrung out in the way that you feel wrung out after like a long production of that feeling. And I love the feeling of like, I only, I could have done what just happened, which is not to say that like, I am the,

I, no one could have done it as well as I just did it. It's just like, I, I knowing that like, I stamped this thing with my personality and my point of view and whatever. and it would have been a completely different show if, if one of my colleagues had done it. Right.

Yeah. And like, I love, I'm like, I can't live without that feeling. Yeah. I get antsy when I, when I feel like I'm doing something that anybody could do. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yep.

Absolutely. And I don't know if it's just narcissism or what, but it's like, it's, I don't know. I have to have that feeling where I go a little nuts. Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, it's the same thing. Because you do have to, you're right, you have to, you know, just having had the Conan show, and like one of the things that I have to keep in my mind is that like, now I'm looking for work, which I was very spoiled by 10 years of a steady check. And I realized the best way for me to get work or like the, the mindset that I need to be

in to get work is loving myself, thinking I'm great, thinking that I deserve every opportunity, and that if somebody comes to me with something and they choose someone else, they're making a mistake because they ought to hire me because I'm the one that's going to do it. And not to make it like a megalomaniacal thing, but just like a a quiet confidence but that also has an energy to it because i need that kind of energy because left of my own devices i just settle to the bottom you know i just like uh what well who am i what is what does any of this mean what i'm no better than anybody else in fact i'm some days i'm like i'm shitty at things you know yeah you know but you have to so it's like and i think it's you know i guess if you're, you know, but you have to, so it's like, and I think it's, you know,

I guess if you're in sales or something or you're, you know, you're going, you gotta, you know, work among actuaries, you gotta be, you gotta believe in yourself too. But it's like, you really do. I think for this, especially when you're the product, you gotta really inflate yourself and keep, keep that ball in the air because the air because it's, well, there's so much against you too. There's so much rejection, you know, being on TV, Jesus Christ, so much. You're putting yourself in front of people who have a little box in their hand that they could push a button and say, no, no, Dave, bye. See ya. You know? And it's, you know, and you can't get away from that. You know, you can rationalize it a million ways. I, you know, I had shows that failed and I thought, okay, America rejected me. And I have friends

that say, don't look at it that way. And I'm like, I absolutely have to look at that way because that it's, it's a component of reality is that they put me out there and yeah, there's a million other things that went into it and network bullshit and lack of promotion, blah, blah, blah. But like, no, but I mean, other people get put on TV and America goes, oh my God, give me more of that. Shove more of that in my whole day after day after day. And I get put on TV and they're like, yeah, it's all right. He's all right. Yeah, likable, I guess. But not, you know because you there are people that do that so it's like you've got to be your own fucking pep squad absolutely and you also have to like not

um like leap at every opportunity because you're afraid it's going to be the last one, which is like, that's where I have the hardest time. Yep. Because I still have that thing of like feeling, you know, gratitude is important, but it can also be a glue trap kind of because you're like, if, if you approach it from just like, God, I'm so lucky to be here. Like, let me just do everything I can before they figured out that I don't know what the fuck I'm doing or the next generation comes along or whatever. So you're just like, yes, I'm so lucky to be here. Like, let me just do everything I can before they figured out that I don't know what the fuck I'm doing

or the next generation comes along or whatever. So you're just like, yes, yes, yes. And it's like, you do have to have a moment of quietly being like the right thing. The right thing will find me, you know, I'm going to keep doing what I do and connect with the right thing at some point. I don't have to like, I don't have to act like, you know, a lottery winner.

Right. You know, who is about to be ushered out of the building. Yeah. And also because there are things you can do that actually might, you know, if you might say yes to this, this present thing right here in front of you, then there's a check attached, but you know, it's not good. You know, it's not great. And that could fuck you up for the next

thing that's actually really pretty good and has an even bigger check and you know yeah it's really what you want to do you have to kind of curate your choices so that you don't end up you know because you you see it you see people that like like oh no honey don't do that like you see people that you like on tv doing things like, oh gosh, oh, I don't know if you should have said that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, and it's, because I think it's the fine line between being a person that wants to do things for people and being someone that lets themselves be taken advantage of. For sure. You know, there's an aspect of that to it too, where you just like, who am I to say no to things? And it's like, well, actually, I have worth, I have preferences, I have standards. So yeah, there are things I'm going to say no to.

Yeah, like late night shows in the back, in the Andy Dick Theater. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Midnight on a Friday or whatever. Right. The show that I made the most on was, it was like commercial bumpers around true crime programming on Court TV. Oh, yeah Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it, you know, the people I've worked with were terrific, but it was like, it was one of those where I was like, literally like, please get some hot guy to do this, please. Because it's like, it doesn't matter who reads these words off this teleprompter.

It does not matter. Like if you wanted my personality, you're not getting it because I'm not, you know, cause I can't like we would do our segments had to be exactly one minute long. And sometimes they were interviews with like forensics experts or whatever. Oh, that's easy. Yeah. And so like the producer would be like, that actually came in at 57 seconds. We have to do it again. And we would do it as many times as it took to get it to exactly 60 seconds. And, and just like, just why like mind numbing shit like that, that I was like, you know, I took it because I and just like just wild like mind-numbing shit like that um that i was like you know i took it because i was just like i gotta take i just gotta do this while i could you know

while i still can but at the end of every day i was like i really i'm going to go crazy yeah yeah yeah and by that time i was like back doing improv in la so that was good i was able to like balance that but you know there's no money in improv. Yeah, that's true. When you, uh, what, what caused you to leave MTV? Just, you'd kind of done enough there. To be honest with you, like it was, my contract just ran out and, you know, and you get, you know, you get five years there, you get four or five years there. If you're lucky, I think I got four and a half almost exactly. And then it kind of peters out.

And I was in L.A. working on an MTV show, like a game show. I don't even – another time. Yeah, yeah. It was like it was an immediately post-F post fear factor game show that had like uh you know whatever um it was not my bag but whatever um and that wrapped and and then just like the checks stopped coming and it was like oh that's it's just like there was no goodbye it and and that's a common experience there is just like your contract runs out. And like, if you have a conversation with anyone, it's someone in business affairs.

Yeah. It's like none of the producers or, or, you know, writers that you worked with. Nobody knows really when it's, unless you go, unless you're like Carson and you leave with purpose to go to a next thing.

Yeah. It was just for me, it was just like, oh, that's, that's it. Yep. That's the end of the road.

Yeah. Like coming home and finding the locks changed just like, oh, that's it. Yeah. Bye. That's the end of the road. Yeah. And it was time. Like coming home and finding the locks changed. Oh, I guess we broke up. I guess we broke up. Yeah, yeah. And by this time, I was 31 or 32, and the writing was on the wall.

Yeah. Are you union during this? Yes. You are union because you're on camera talent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I worked a little bit for MTV here and there, and they were like, here's a nickel. Yeah. You know, they're terrible about paying and just, you know.

Yeah. Nobody ever got rich there. Yeah. We did a group of us from Chicago did a sketch comedy pilot for them. did a um a sketch comedy pilot for them and the money that they were gonna and there were like eight or nine of us in the money that they were gonna pay for us pay us for it i did like calculation and realized like i could be bartending in front of a show that i'm on currently you know what i mean like i could be giving people drinks and then be on the TV too. And they could say, hey, is that you? And I could say, yeah.

Oh, yeah. We're still making the show. No, I just don't make enough money to live in New York City and be on this television show. So, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mentioned it's probably still the same. I mean, and it's, you know, MTV certainly isn't what it was anyway.

No, no. I don't know a single person who works there anymore. And it's nothing but like skateboard wipeout videos and stuff. skateboard wipeout videos right right right yeah um yeah it's a strange thing it's just had its 40th anniversary and they did nothing yeah yeah um it's it's all it's all very strange right um at what and if i may ask at what point during this process are do you come out publicly kind of toward the end of mtv yeah of my time there yeah yeah uh i guess it was 2001 or 2002 you know i i it's so weird looking back because i had been out forever you know like to family since college and to friends since before that. And, and was very like very out in my life. Yeah.

But on everybody you work with knows and you know, yeah. But the, the thing, like the disconnect between then and now is that then you needed like you needed a magazine to tell your story, you know, or like you needed to do an interview with somebody. Right. And like, nobody fucking cared, you know? Like I wasn't, I wasn't the guy on the network.

It kind of just, it was difficult to like wrestle a magazine into doing an interview. Yeah. Because I just wasn't, you know, I wasn't the face, you know? Right. And I could have been bolder, I guess, about saying things on the air. But, you know,

certainly like, you know, we had like Eminem and we would, you know, when a new album would come out, we would, it would be like a week's worth of programming. And he would say the F word,

you know, 375 times. Right. Every album. And then I'd have to be on live TV, like interviewing him. And I don't, I don't, it's so, it's disappointing to look back and say like, I could have,

could have said something. Yeah. Um, but I never did. And, uh, I don't, I don't know if I was just trying not to jeopardize a good thing or what, but it's, it's, it's, I look back on that with a little bit of regret but but you know finally did it and literally nothing changed yeah i've i've had similar moments that i look back on that happened on the conan show where i felt like uh you know that was bad and wrong and i should and but then i think what my position on the show was what the show is about and it just you know and then there i think again there's this midwesternness of like well i don't want to be impolite you know this isn't my party so i'm not going to dictate the tone of the party i'm just gonna you know be quiet and live

right but you know that that was there i have the exact same thing where there's times when I was like where I feel like I should have just I don't know, a little pushback against Van Jones saying sure. Like on the on the Conan show saying like they just he was like talking about, well, the Democrats are doing it. They who knows what their agenda is like and i i think it was during a presidential election like who knows what their agenda is and i was just sitting there thinking like well you could look on their fucking website yeah you could listen to their every fucking speech that they give and gosh if only one of us had a current events program where they could highlight these things yes you know these things that are supposedly not being touted you know yeah yeah just you know laziness just laziness and you know

that you know whatever yeah you know who yeah just you know i'm it's also i'm a fucking talk show sidekick you know i have to i do have to kind of look at it sometimes i would have to be like you know everybody should say what they what they should but there have to kind of look at it sometimes I would have to be like, you know, everybody should say what they, what they should, but there was also kind of like, yeah, but this is clown time, you know? I mean, this isn't even like really, nobody's coming here for scathing rants or incisive viewpoints. It's, you know, we got puppets, we got puppets and. Puppet dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I do try to remind myself of that also, which's you know we got puppets we got puppets and you know puppet dog yeah yeah yeah

i mean yeah i do try to remind myself of that also which you know like i really did i mean i really did walk in off the street and get this job so like so i can forgive myself for not being like bolder than i was yeah yeah you know pushing an agenda or whatever. And also, we all are caught in the tide of time and it's like, you know, in that time we all contribute to it, but then sometimes there is times where you're writing and you don't even really

realize, like, oh yeah, it would be appropriate. Because at the time, did you wish you should have said something to Eminem? Or it's only in retrospect that you're like. Yeah. Yeah. No, that idea didn't even occur to me until a few years ago.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, partially because of feeling like a lottery winner, you know, who ended up with the job and not wanting to rock the boat, but also just like the, you know, straight white male power was so much more entrenched then that it was like, even, you know, honestly, like when I talked about like coming out publicly or doing like a national coming out day special or whatever, uniformly, the executives who said, you should stay, you should stay how you are. We're all gay executives. So, so it's like, none of us really knew what to do.

You know? So I don't know. Yeah. I, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't have wanted to pick a fight with Eminem on live TV. I'd probably. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very good battle rapper.

Right. He'd rap things at me that would be very hurtful. And I would have no recourse. You would not rhyme anything. No, I wouldn't rhyme anything no i wouldn't no i would yeah yeah i would be bad i'm bad at that well how now when do you when do you start uh having more kind of a writing career um right around the time i was doing that that uh court tv show, uh, because I was going a little bananas. Um, I, uh, yeah, I started, honestly, I started like blogging. I had a Tumblr. Oh, wow. And, and that was like, that felt really good. And that, like, that filled up that feeling for me of like, I am making a thing that only I can make right now. Like it is the

least consequential thing in the world. Like it is literally a Tumblr, but, um, but it felt good. Right. Yeah. And, uh, and I enjoyed it and I like, you know, developed a medium sized audience or whatever. And then I, um, core TV show went away. Uh, the FX show that I had been working on went away. And, um, and I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do next. And so I, I messaged the, uh, the editor at the time of vulture, um, which is like the New York magazine, pop culture site because X factor was starting up like the, the American idol sort of, um, sequel. And, um, and

I was like, is anyone recapping it for you? Cause I was like, I want, I want to, I want like deadlines and an editor and you know, I want, I want to do that. And, uh, and so he said, no, we don't know if anyone's going to care about this show. And so it's like, well, give me a try. So it was like two weekly deadlines and a word count and an editor. And I found that I really enjoyed it. And that led to a column. And then that column led to a book. And then my editor at Vulture moved to Esquire. And I him and um and just have stayed there ever since

and that's been like that's been the major thing which is like a surprise but i love it yeah i'm i'm it it gives me that feeling of like you know when i when i hit publish on something i feel like okay that is a that would not be there if I hadn't done it. May not be great, but it would be there if I hadn't done it. How does it compare to the satisfaction of, of being on camera, of having people look at you and say, looking, looking at you saying things? Um, I don't mind, I, I don't miss people looking at me saying things. Yeah. Yeah. I really don't. Yeah. Thank God MTV was before social media.

I would be, I would be a heroin addict if I were on camera in that way, in a time of social media, I would be dead. You mean just because you would have to listen to so much. I, yeah. Horrible,

horrible stuff. Yeah. I mean, you know know we had our you know aol mtv page and there were message boards and like the occasional you know grounded 14 year old girl would yeah you know talk about you know i'm too fat or whatever and that would that would be that would just rip my heart in half so like yeah, you know, luckily that toughened me up, but I still think it would be a nightmare if we had had full social media. Yeah. I don't,

I miss, I miss the energy of live perform of like a, a live television show. I, you know, I miss like that buzz of, you know, you know,

people run around in headsets and, you know, a producer yelling in your ear and all that kind of thing. Like that's, that's, I miss, you know, people run around in headsets and, you know, a producer yelling in your ear and all that kind of thing. Like that's, that's, I miss that adrenaline rush, but I, but I, I find writing to be much more relaxing and it suits my 50 year old lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah. I considerably more. I have, I wish I, I wish I just, uh, my, myhd wasn't that i could somehow get a get a handle on it to to do more writing because i certainly i mean i like i like acting very much uh and i like being on you know doing tv you know game showy kind of things like those are fun too but it's but you know acting is

acting is more satisfying like just sort of like but if i just could produce television shows and write television shows and and you know say um use this wallpaper instead of that wallpaper on the set you know like just make those i would be happy to not to not be looked at ever again in my life yeah because it just i've been looked at enough i don't you know it's not it's always been a mixed bag i still watching myself on video i do not enjoy that experience i don't find that i will ever enjoy that experience. Yeah, me neither. Whereas I will read the shit I've written 15 times and be like, man, good job, Andy. Yeah.

But looking at myself, no, thank you. Yeah, that can be rough. And time won't make it any easier. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can, there are, the occasional project like TV-wise comes up that I feel like, okay, I could add something to that. And, you know, and I've been lucky enough to do a few and I'm sure there are a couple more left in me, but, but I'm not like, not like madly searching for it. And, and if I, if I were to pitch something that got picked up and the condition of it getting picked up is you can't host it we need someone younger or whatever yeah fine fine oh absolutely yeah that's a hundred percent okay i'm i mean i'm in the process right now pitching different tv ideas and i have come to the you know

like what if they say like well this is funny but it should be someone younger and prettier i'd be like fuck yes go go ahead. Yeah. Let me help you find one. Yeah, find somebody really pretty. Yeah, yeah. That's fine with me, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, so, I don't know.

We'll see. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yes, exactly. Well, that gets, I mean, we'll see what happens could be the answer to the second of these three questions, which is what have you learned? I mean, what do you take from from the path that you've been on and it could also

be you know i always like to say it doesn't have to be work things it could be about you and ben about your partner and like you know about you guys you know i i'm taking too much of your time already No you're not This is fantastic Oh good good This is exactly the way I want to be spending my afternoon Oh good good good But you know just something Something that you learned about being in a relationship For a long time

Well Bad news Ben it's not about you He's not about you. He's not listening to this. You guys have been long enough. You both have that healthy disinterest in each other. That's exactly right. He is so tired of the sound of my voice.

But what I have learned over time is, I can only succeed as myself, you know, I spent so much of like the first two, three decades of my life feeling like I needed to, to be someone else and, and making choices that would make me more of that other person. You know what I mean? Whether it was, you know, my older brothers or my dad or, you know, guys I looked up to or had crushes on or whatever. Yeah. I spent a lot of time trying to like be what I perceived that thing to be. And I would only ever do mediocre work.

You know, I can only ever be like a pale imitation. Yeah, yeah yeah the only successes in my life have come from doing the thing that only i would do you know um that is what like that's when my heart is in it and that's when my energy is in it and that's when that that is the thing that doesn't exist in the world and it may may not always be great. Like, it may not always be a success, but I can only ever hope to be a success when I am operating from that, like, place of, like, integrity, you know? Yeah. I completely relate to that. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. Well, go ahead. Go ahead. You go ahead. Well, no, I was going to say, so like, so now when I do go home and when I do face, you know, things that hit my ear in a way that's like infuriating, it's, I can disconnect from that a little bit more easily. You know what I mean? I can be like, well, that is, you are stuck in a, like you're, you're, you're,'re that is you're putting on a persona when you when because there's no defensible reason to be angry at of wearing a mask there's right so right

so like if you're if you're mad at it that that you're playing a character and that character is mad at it right and and i have been caught up in that like like, mode of thinking and being, and I'm not anymore. So I should continue to trust myself and move confidently in my own direction, you know? Yeah. It takes the emotional sting out a little bit. I relate to that so much, and I think it's because you, when someone wants you to be, you know, a job or whatever, wants you to, or, you know, or a person that you're trying to woo, wants you to be something that you're not, it doesn't work because you can't do that. You can't be something you're not. I mean, some people can, but it's sort of like a symptom of a sociopathy, actually.

of like a symptom of a sociopathy actually um so you know i i'm a friend of mine that we wrote a script together years and years and years ago and and we got all kinds of notes that were kind of like you know this isn't this isn't like the things that are selling i mean basically was sort of the subtext of what we were told and but i'm because that i've been through that process of before you sign a deal with somebody oh we love you we want you we like your uniqueness we want your particular voice and you go okay i'll sign here i sign and they're like okay now could you be more like what's working? Could you be more like what is already flooding the airwaves? You know, that process. And it just gets winnowed down until when you're by the end of like finishing the pilot script. It's just like, oh, well, why didn't you just fucking tell me you wanted a version of what's number one right now?

But this friend of mine said to me like, well, what do we do next? Like, do we write, do we try and write whatever it was, friends, or do we try and write Frazier? And I was like, I don't know how to do that. So it would be bad. And everybody out there that I've ever encountered that is trying to write, oh, well, Frazier's doing well, I'll write a Frazier. It's bad. And is that what you want to spend your time,

your precious only time on earth doing? You know, it'll be bad. It would be bad. And the shit that breaks out, you know, the stuff that does really well is never a pale imitation of the popular thing from just before. Never. It's always, you're always rolling the dice on somebody's perspective that you never heard before or some idea that sounds ridiculous or whatever.

Those are the only things that ever really have, like, significance. Yeah. Right? significance yeah right um there i mean there are things that are hits that are you know there are a million sitcoms and procedurals that like are profitable that are all the same but the stuff that like really breaks out and changes the world changes it because it's different yes it is a different perspective and yet somehow when you get into the the the muck of like making something it does yeah you're right the the current does push you toward the shit that's already been done matt weiner was a writer on andy richard controls the universe and gave me a pilot script for this

show about um advertising in the in the 50s sixties, you know, like advertising for cigarettes was kind of what the point of it was like the people that, and I don't think it was called mad men, but that's what it was. Yeah. And he gave it to me as like, this is this thing that'll never get made because everywhere I take it, people say period stuff doesn't work. Period shows don't work. We can't have period shows on TV. Somebody takes a risk on it, puts it on TV, and all of a sudden the next year there's a 50s airline show, a show about cops in the 60s. Every time somebody's ever told me a rule, you know, their anthology shows won't work. Here comes Black Mirror, you know, like, right.

They're just I don't I can't imagine being one of those people and saying this will not work. You know, like that thing. Yeah. Like something like something starring a fireman wouldn't work. And, you know, because then there's going to be a fucking fireman show you know or whatever yeah i don't i mean it is we all know that nobody knows anything so i don't understand how we keep doing business that i don't know business and like that there are these offices full of people everywhere whose job is to have shitty opinions like awful awful opinions awful awful wrong opinions right right and and yet that's a job yep and you get a parking space for that shit that reflect the opinion of the person just

next most powerful to them you know like yes i and going and pitching things into rooms with the eight or nine people and all those people need to have opinions what about one or two i've always i've always thought that you could go i've said this before any network building you could go and you could fire every third person and it would run exactly smoothly if not better just randomly go down the hallway like one two three go home one two three go home and it would nothing would change nothing it would not it wouldn't be impactful in the slightest other than you know people losing their jobs but right you know they would find another job they go get a job somewhere else yeah it's wild that that that somehow that world has has not weathered cuts everything else has oh yeah yeah everything else

has been automated or you know cut to maximize profit or whatever and yet they're still it's like how am i still meeting new development people how how yeah yeah and they get younger and you get older younger and younger and younger and younger. Yeah. And, you know, it was weird 15 years ago when I would, you know, go for a meeting with a development executive who was 26. And they'd be like, oh, I grew up watching you. And I'd be like, that's wild because now you're grown up and now I'm going to need you to – I'm pitching to you and i hope your assistant would validate my parking but you know what's worse is when now they're 26 and they didn't grow up watching you you know what i mean like now it's like their whole upbringing was like after i was finished yeah tv that's like oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Feeling kind of old. Yeah.

Yeah. Just the goddamn, this goddamn time thing. Yeah. This time, it just keeps going. I'm a fan. Not a fan. Let's get rid of it. Oh.

Well, thank you so much for coming. Oh, my God, Andy. On the show. Thank you for having me. I do need to, for the eagle-eared listeners, I do realize I misnamed one of my own questions. I called the, what have you learned? The second question when it's really the third.

I just am saying this so I don't get just inundated. I didn't catch that at all. I did. I just, I did after I said, I was like, well, no, wait, that's the third question. Go easy on yourself, man. I didn't listen to the whole three questions things is a gimmick it's not really real it's just you know it's just you gotta have a podcast be about something right absolutely you

need you need a hook and speaking of which you have podcast or is it more than one yeah well i have a bunch um yeah i've spit them out man okay Okay. Homophilia with our friend Matt McConkie, where we talk to awesome queer people about their lives and journeys. I do sort of a panel show podcast called Troubled Waters for the Maximum Fun Network. And starting in mid-October for Exactly Right, I am doing a 10-episode investigative podcast about a boy band from the early 90s who went missing. What? Yeah. Wow. The entire boy band?

Do you remember the video for Motown Philly from Boyz II Men? Uh-huh. So it was Michael Bivens of Belle Biv DeVoe introducing all the bands in his, or all the groups in the East Coast family, which was just like his, uh, like coterie of artists. And it was, you know, Boyz II Men, Belle Biv Devoe, another bad creation. And then in the middle of it, there's, um, there's this boy band called Sudden Impact and their name is literally in lights above them. And they look at

the camera and they point at the camera and then that's all they ever did. And I've always been like, it's been 30 years now and I've been fascinated by what happened. Yeah. Because it was a huge debut and then literally nothing happened. Well, nothing that we saw happened, but I was, I was always certain there was a story there.

So I have investigated it. I was right. And, and it's, it's 10, 10 episodes of 1990s recording industry, boy band.

Oh, that's fantastic. That's really fun. I'm very excited about it. That TV show where they made that O-Town. Yes, making the band. And just all of the things that happened. My ex-wife and I

loved that show watched every single second of it and just because it was bananas just it was so bananas and then in retrospect it's like bad bananas bad bananas oh really bad yeah yeah banana oh boy yeah um i was a judge on some early episodes of making the band. Oh, wow. Like the early auditions. Yeah. Yeah.

And it was like me and Lou Pearlman and somebody else. And, and like the people who came, I mean, it's really true. It was back in those days, people, I guess know better now,

but in like the people who came in to audition, it was like, who, why, who told you that you, yeah, yeah. You know, and you want to be encouraging to everyone, but there were people who was just like, who, why, who told you that you, you know, and you want to be encouraging to everyone, but there were people who was just like, you cannot sing or dance. And I don't know what you're doing. And there's no, like, there was no William Hung. There wasn't like a, oh,

this will be my backdoor into fame or whatever. It was really wild. And then of course, some very good people. And then they, you know, they created O-Town and the rest was like. It was really wild. And then of course some very good people. And then they, you know, they created outtown and the rest was history. And the rest was, was yeah. Weird, weird history. Weird history. Yeah.

Very strange history. Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to that, that, that 10 parter. That'll be good. That's really interesting stuff.

Yeah. Waiting for impact coming October 10th. All right. October 12th,ober 12th oh no jesus i'm busy that day okay um well it's a podcast it will exist for you whenever you choose to listen to it thank you it's great to see you great to hear you uh we should uh i'd love to see you in real in real uh r.i.l as they say yeah let, let's do that. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. Come by the pool.

I will. It's unannounced. Unannounced. I'll be there. We love it. We love it. Right over the back fence. Perfect.

All right, Dave Holmes. Bring a dog. I will. Dave Holmes, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank all of you for listening. And we will be back next week with three more questions. I've got a big, big love for you. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco

and Your Wolf production. It is produced by Lane Gerbig, engineered by Marina Pice, and talent produced by Galitza Hayek. The associate producer is Jen Samples, supervising producer Aaron Blair, and executive producers Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Make sure to rate and review The Three Questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. Can't you tell my loves are growing? This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.