The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Joel Kim Booster

Episode Date: August 13, 2019

Comedian Joel Kim Booster sits down with Andy Richter to talk about controversial theater school productions, having his parents discover he was gay by reading his diary, and how he used live theater to launchpad into stand-up comedy. Plus, Joel shares the most helpful piece of advice he’s learned as well as the goalposts he’s building towards.This episode is sponsored by Service on Celluloid podcast, Mack Weldon (www.mackweldon.com code: THREEQUESTIONS), and U-Turn Audio (www.uturnaudio.com code: RICHTER).

Hello, everyone. Hello, podcast world, internet, I don't know, whatever, people listening to this, people with some time on their hands, basically. I'm Andy Richter, and this is the three questions. For those of you who don't know, those three questions are, where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? And today I get to ask them of one of the funniest people I know, and just an all-around sweetheart, Joel Kim Booster.

Oh my gosh. Hi. Hello, Andy. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. Good, good. I famously walked in a few minutes late right right sure iced coffee in hand right right which is an additional slap in the face yeah i know to

be and you let you walk through the room you let your cape fall yeah it's very dramatic it really tells a story when you do that sure it's like you really well and i will say it wasn't the iced coffee that made me late I'm not worried about it it was the breakfast sandwich you should have been eating that that would be good that would be

all manner of things holding dry cleaning drinking a coffee eating a sub I am so anal about being late it is my least favorite thing in the world, being late. I usually walk in drenched in sweat.

Apologizing profusely. But I don't respect you. I don't blame you. I'm kidding. This podcast hasn't been on the air yet, so you don't know whether you should or not. Yeah, I had no idea. I will say, when I was in theater school, they would lock the doors when

your class was at 9. It would turn 8.59 to 9. that you should or not? Yeah, I had no idea. I will say, when I was in theater school, they would lock the doors when the, if your class was at nine, at nine, it would turn 8.59 to nine, they would lock the doors. I had some teachers like that. You wouldn't be allowed in. But it wasn't,

I only really took one theater class and that was at the University of Illinois and I decided, I don't, what, this is silly. What is this all for?

Were you just rolling around on the ground sort of making noises? Yeah, just all that kind of like be a tree kind of bullshit. It's like, what does this have to do with? That's ground yeah just on that kind of like be a tree kind of bullshit it's like what does this have to do with

that's unfortunate if that's like the first and only class you took because I took a lot of those classes too and I hated those classes but I was also taking

a lot of other classes that I do think and don't get me wrong theater school let me be the first to say it waste of money don't do it

absolutely if you are a teenager listening to this thinking about it do not go do not. Do I think that's, you're already tackling what you've learned. Don't go. Don't take out a single student loan unless you get a full ride scholarship to Yale university. Yes. Don't go. But do I think it, it shaped a lot of like who I am in terms of like a lot of the, I do use a lot of things I learned, but a lot of it who I am in terms of like a lot of the, I do use a lot of things I learned, but a lot of it is stuff that is not stuff that was taught in classes.

It was just sort of like being at theater school, like being on time. College, college is learning. I really felt like, cause I went two years to university of Illinois, just liberal arts and science. Wow.

I went, I was down the road for, I was like a 45 minutes away. Where'd you go? Milliken university. Oh, I know Milliken. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, where was down the road. I was like 45 minutes away. Where'd you go? Milliken University. Oh, I know Milliken. Sure, yeah, yeah. Where's that, Rock Island?

It's Decatur. Decatur, right, right. The soybean capital of America. Right. No, I know Decatur. Yeah. That was because when I started out at U of I, because I was such a brave soul,

I asked our guidance counselor in our high school, when I told him, I said, I think I want to be a writer. He went, oh, so journalism. And I was like I was like no not really I don't care about journalism I was like you know like maybe you know short stories or I said maybe even writing for even at that time was like for TV or for movies and he's like go to journalism school you can do all that other stuff in your spare time and you know brave soul that I was I was, okay. So I went to U of I, and in order to get into the College of Communications, you just took liberal arts for the first two years. And so that's what I did.

I just took liberal arts classes. And then I had a meeting the beginning of my sophomore year with the dean of the College of Communications to just sort of get the whole program going because you had to maintain a pretty high grade average too, which I was doing. And I told her what I wanted to do. And she's like, oh, you shouldn't be at this school.

And I was like, you mean I should be like in the College of Fine Arts? And she goes, no, no, you shouldn't be at U of I. She's like, you should go to a different college. I hadn't considered it at all. But like, it was like, she smacked me with a bat. I was in a daze. But two steps out of her office, I was like, she's right.

Where did you go? I went to Columbia College in Chicago for film school. I mean, I couldn't afford to go to either coast to the big film schools, but that was fine. But it was the same thing when I got to Columbia. didn't learn anything except for like who I was how I how many drugs I could take how much drinking I could do you know that I better chill out about being so serious about relationships or I was never going to get laid uh that was one big thing but the reason I that triggered me talking more than you is uh is when you said decatur because that was one of the things that she said to me. She goes like, she said, if you become, she goes, we teach you how to be a reporter.

And she goes like, do you want to go to Decatur and report on grain elevator fires? Oh, God. And I was like. It's so dark. I know. I love that, like, she's the one that's supposed to be encouraging kids to be journalists.

But I guess when you're at a school like U of I, you do sort of, you're not like desperate for students. So you can be a little bit more real about it. I think like my school and I loved my school, but they were very much like, nope, this is the only place for you no matter what. Like a lot of conservatories, because the BFA program at my school, you had to like re-audition or you get put on probation for either acting, singing or dancing.

I didn't do any of this. And they.ition or you get put on probation for either acting singing or dancing i didn't do any of this and they what do you mean put on probation so like at the end of your freshman year yeah so you have it sounds so you had to do they were called hurdles at the end of your freshman year and you had an acting hurdle uh if you were a musical theater major you had an acting hurdle singing hurdle and how theater is that i know hurdle yeah and so you and and everyone had to do it and then if you you would either pass all three or you would get um put on probation for sometimes all three sometimes just one or two uh or you would get redirected which means and most at most conservatories if you're redirected it means you're out of the school you have to go somewhere else at our school we had a

ba program in theater as well and that would that would sort of be where you would go and they always and the thing is is i went in i never auditioned for the school because i had a very like weird millican was the only school i applied to because why that's how i was going to ask that why it was um a the only school that didn't have an application fee at the time and i was very poor i see and it was one of the only schools that i applied to that it was one of the only schools that I applied to that it was one of the first schools that like, I was aware of that you could apply online, like just to fill in.

I remember filling out the application at the public library. What year is this? You child? 2006, um, 2005, probably when I applied, I already had gray pubes.

But yeah. And so I just ended up there and I like thought I wanted to like audition to be in the BFA program then. But everyone, because everyone was sort of like the BA program is sort of for like the rejects and the like the kids who got redirected out of the, who weren't good enough to get into the BFA program. But, and they, and all the teachers were sort of like,

no, like the BFA program is for like kids who are like ready to go. And the BA program is more for if you have more diverse interests. If your path isn't go directly to New York, be on Broadway, you should do this. Because you can spread your wings and do a lot more things. And that's what I ended up doing. I ended up getting a double major in English. I worked for the school newspaper.

And I did a lot of other things. And also was very good. So I was allowed to be in all the classes. Absolutely. But the toast of Decatur. Yeah. But yeah, I don't remember why we got into this.

Oh yeah. That's why it's because every day, the reason they didn't just send the BFA kids away who got redirected was because they needed to keep them in town. They needed to keep them in town. Most of them, if you did get, and Oh,

this is the best part, is at the end of the year, right before the last day, before everyone leaves campus, they put letters on a board in the theater offices for you

to go and look and see if you passed your hurdles, were put on probation, or were redirected. And it was just like, they would go up at like midnight.

Oh my God. When we're all fucking wasted. Drama. When we're all wasted. Drama. I uh my future roommate lauren culver um like literally like across the lawn in front of the theater offices collapsing as she read her letter because she was redirected from musical theater to the bfa and acting which was like and it was like an alleged it was such a, like at the moment

we were all, and then we all crowded around her and like hugged and she was sobbing. And it's like, the stakes seemed so high back then. And now looking back, we talk about it and we're just like, what a ridiculous moment. And also too, if there's any Millican faculty listening to this, that's just outright mind fuckery. That's just exploitative mind fuckery by people who are

indicator and probably don't want to be indicator. You know what I mean? There are professors I just actually went back this last October

and visited and performed for Homecoming and there are professors that I had there that know that are like very much like enough separated from it

that they're like some of this is bullshit. And then there are people who have been there for so long, they're so in deep, entrenched in their bullshit that it is like crazy. Like that they treat it this way because it doesn't need to be that way. No, it doesn't. To put them up at midnight. It's humiliating.

And like the whole, the theater of like finding out all of this stuff in itself is so interesting. And there are directors and like professors there that like are just using that they're not they're using the school in a way that is like not helpful to the students like there was a production of like Urinetown the musical my senior year and this one of the famous the most psychotic like theater teachers I had at school instead of doing a regular show everyone everyone wore black, everyone wore a mask,

and no one was cast in any one part. Everyone had to learn every part. And then at certain points in the performance, you would sort of be like an improv exercise where you would like in the middle of a song, sort of like throw the ball to someone else. And so no one played a distinct part. It was insane.

And this is in front of audience. And this was, yeah. This was like a main stage production. Wow. It was crazy. My freshman year. That's so, that's ridiculous. That would be like, you're going to do.

It was totally masturbatory for this. Whose life is this anyway? But everyone has to carry a bucket of hot coals. You're like, there's, you know, you'll never do this in a professional setting. No, never. But do it now because I'm sad and lonely and mad. There was also a production of Carousel that took place in a concentration camp. Oh, sure.

My freshman year. Fine. All women. And this is actually, okay. And I'm not, I don't want to defend this too much because of course now it is like 2006, different time. Yes. Wildly. this too much because of course now it is like 2006 different time yes wildly but this is a real thing

that the Nazis would make people do in concentration camps which is put on shows for the Red Cross to like prove that they were being

treated well right which is psycho and so this director's idea it was an all cast of all women except for one guy

and when someone was like pregnant this is where it gets a little dicey. It's because the ushers had to dress up as Nazis. Which now, looking back, is insane. Insane that we all just let this go and allowed this to happen. And then before the actual carousel began. Because it was a play within a play, basically, is what they were doing.

And, like, one girl came up and was like, to the Red Cross, thank you for coming. And, like, and so you were watching, like, basically people in a concentration camp perform carousel. And it was, like, really deeply fucked up. Wow. And insane. And, like, one girl was in, like, a pregnant belly and, like,, and in the, at the end of act one, like broke and was like trying to like feel like, no,

you know, and then it was dragged off stage and then it's like replaced the character she's playing in the second act is, it was crazy, but also like, no, it was crazy. It was just crazy.

It is a good, there's more of a point of view there than the mask, the Urinetown mask. Yes, right, exactly. For sure. No, there does seem to be like a misguided attempt at doing something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand. And not a Jew in sight in that direction, by the way.

Not a hater? Not behind the performances or not on stage at all. Not a single one, of course. Well, yeah. I actually think that at theater school, though, was the first time I ever met a Jewish person. Yeah. Yeah. Growing up in the Midwest.

I did not know. Well, when my mom remarried, I went to third and fourth grade in Aurora, Illinois. I grew up in Yorkville, Illinois, which is a little town. Yes. And then we lived in Aurora, Illinois for two years, which is a bigger town. Right next to where the town I grew up in Yorkville, Illinois, which is a little town. Yes. And then we lived in Aurora, Illinois for two years, which is a bigger town. Right next to where the town I grew up. Where you grew up? Plainfield.

Oh, in Plainfield. Sure. Yeah, yeah. We're very close. Yeah. Oh, wow. But there was one Jewish kid, and that was where I was first introduced to Hanukkah and really struck by like, wait, the first day you just get a toothbrush, the next day you

get socks. It just seemed like a real rip. Was there even a synagogue by where we grew up? I first day you just get a toothbrush. The next day you get socks. You know, it's just seemed like a, was there even a synagogue by where we grew up? I don't remember there being a synagogue. There has to be one in Aurora, but I don't, I don't remember specifically, but then the only other Jew I knew until I went to college was my pediatrician. Wow. You know, Morton Chaffron who died at a Cubs game. Oh my God. And we actually ended up seeing, he was sitting behind home plate, and we saw paramedics.

We were watching the game. We saw paramedics. And then later found out that was my pediatrician having a heart attack and dying at the Cubs game. You saw it all on the kiss cam. Yep. And we didn't know. Oh, it was all just in the background.

It was like, oh, there. And they announced it was like, there seems to be a health, some sort of health issue going on in the stands. I remember when I was really young, like four or five, we went to a Cubs game. And someone had snuck a cat onto the field. Sure. And put a cat and threw a cat out onto the field. It happens.

And I'll never forget that. It happens. People do that. Yeah, yeah. It's fantastic. And it seemed so insane to me back then. But then I lived in West Lakeview right next to Wrigley, and I was like, oh, I know exactly the kind of person.

Oh, absolutely. They're constantly in there. They're in the bleachers every single game. Yeah, yeah. I'm crazy. I actually worked at a Cold Stone in Yorkville, by the way. Oh, you did? Briefly.

I was trained at the Cold Stone in Yorkville and then moved to the Cold Stone in Plainfield. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know that town. I know, yeah. I know your that town. I know, yeah. I know your life, Andy. Oh, no. Everywhere you came from, I have been.

Although Yorkville now, I'm substantially older than you. When I was there, we literally, I think we literally had three stoplights when I was a kid in town. And like when the McDonald's opened, it was a big fucking deal. It was like, besides that, the only restaurant in town was the Barley Fork, which was like the coffee shop downtown that my grandpa had lunch at every day. So yeah, it's a different town. I haven't been there in years, but I drove through.

Plainfield was pretty similar to that when I was growing up. Because I remember the McDonald's going in being sort of a big deal as well. And then the only thing really we're known for is our high school got blown away by a tornado. That's right. And that was during my childhood, yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah.

I remember that. Because that tornado was our tornado, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It put us on the map. Yeah, that's right. And Melissa McCarthy yes yeah yeah

that's the other thing and Jenny and Jenny McCarthy and Jenny they're cousins oh wow oh wow because Yorkville

Yorkville has me and Dennis Hastert wow speaker of the house pedophile Dennis Hastert yep so Plainfield now has me

and Melissa and Jenny and Shea Coulee who's a runner up on RuPaul's Drag Race. Oh, yeah. I know. Wow. Also went to high school with me. Exciting.

We were in a production of Little Shop of Horrors together. That's great. I was Seymour. He was the plant. Audrey, too. Incredible. That's fantastic. And it's a very camp group.

Yeah. It's a very camp group, all four of you. That's fantastic. Well, let's get back to your childhood. I mean, I've heard you talk about this before, but you are an adopted child and you were born in Korea. And how did your parents, did they have other kids? Yes. They had two kids, two biological kids, my older brother and my older sister.

And then, you know, it's so strange. So much of my childhood and the decisions that were made and things like that are so shrouded in mystery to me because we are a family that does not talk about anything. Very modern. And like, I think like, my mom says she always wanted to adopt, which I believe. My mom says she always wanted to adopt, which I believe. And it was very sort of in vogue in the evangelical community to be adopting babies from Asia or abroad or Africa at the time. I didn't know for sure, but like in thinking about talking to you, I made that assumption. That was probably a cause and quite possibly still is, you know. It might be, yeah.

I know it's harder. To save heathen babies, basically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And it's definitely, international adoption is harder and more expensive now than it was back in the 80s. I think I even, like, my first,

one of my first jokes on Conan was about how Korea used to be, like, the main spot because up until, like, the early, mid-90s, it was the only foreign country that would fly the baby to America. And you didn't have to go. Right, like postmates. Yeah, I think Grubhub is the analogy

that I made on the show. And so there was that. But also here's the thing. My parents, like they didn't sleep in the same room the entire time I was growing up. Like I don't remember them ever like showing affection, hugging, kissing, anything. They were fighting a lot. And so part of me, I was growing up. Like, I don't remember them ever, like, showing affection, hugging, kissing, anything.

They were fighting a lot. And so part of me, I was always, like, growing up, like, oh, like, they wanted a third kid, but they just weren't fucking. So they needed to adopt. Yeah, yeah. And now it's weird because I go home, and they're back in the same room. They're, like, getting along really well.

And so, and again, it will be something that I will never, because I remember I used to try to address it as, like my brother and my sister were very much like, let's just play along. Like, this is totally normal. And I was like, this is weird. Why is no one talking about this? Because I was really, as a kid, very obsessed

because I was homeschooled too. Very obsessed with normalcy. All I wanted was like a quote unquote, like normal family, normal life, normal thing. And I think that came. And were there other kids in Plainfield that looked like you? Not a lot. No, not, I don't, I was probably in like the eighth grade when I met another Asian kid

that I was like friends with at my church. And it was so, I think like for me, I like being like gay and knowing that from a very young age and being in a religious house and then being Asian and being sort of like the only person of color that was like around. I like it truly triggered in me. I was like, I just want to be normal. I want to feel normal. And I was watching so much like raised by television, truly. And so like every TV family, I just wanted that.

I wanted a locker at school. I wanted to come home and have like my parents be sleeping in the same room. I wanted everything to just sort of be pristine and normal. And like, I'm so grateful that it wasn't in many ways now, but yeah, I think like that was one of the big frustrations for me was I was like, why aren't we normal? And I would sort of like, I don't know if I ever said those words, but like, I would constantly act out and sort of be like, why is, why are things like this? And no one wanted to talk about it. Why do you think that you were that way as opposed to your brothers and

sisters? Do you have any theories of that? I mean, I think part of it is, I don't know. Like for me, I think like they were fairly like satisfied. I mean,

the thing is, is we had a great childhood, like we were poor, but like I, and I've only sort of recently sort of realized how poor we actually were. Cause my dad was laid off for a little while. And I remember in those times, like, I just actually had this memory recently. I was talking to my sister about this. My dad, one of the years that he was laid off, we postponed Christmas. My mom was like,

we're postponing Christmas. We're pushing it into January. And at the time, like looking back, it was because they didn't have money for presents. But at the time, I was like, what a fucking badass. I was like, I didn't even know that was an option. You're so powerful. You can just move Christmas. Fuck you, Santa. I was homeschooled, so I didn't have

kids. It was just, time didn't matter in a way. like i wasn't on like a school schedule in the same way so like truly time like looking back on it was so weird and strange because i i wasn't in the nine month like summer is summer going back to school like you had none of that and so the christmas thing wasn't weird because i didn't have any friends who were like that's weird yeah there's no Christmas break or anything yeah no so that we weren't beholden to any of that yeah and and they just never made us those

things they were we were so we were fed we were clothed like they might I remember like my 10th birthday I wanted a Nintendo 64 so bad and my mom was like we cannot afford it we cannot afford it we cannot afford it um like truly like scream cry wanted it that's the only thing and was like that was like one of the first times i realized we were poor is when my mom could said that like she truly couldn't do it and then she talked to my brother and my sister they forwent their birthday presents so that all three of us for my birthday got a nintendo 64 oh my goodness and like and that was like that was the kind of shit that they did, though. They were good parents in the broad sort of ways that you need a parent to be good like that.

Not that buying your kid's shit is the thing that makes you a good parent, but they cared enough about, I don't know, it's weird. I'm very critical of my parents in a lot of ways because they were deeply conservative and hard on me in those ways. But like at the end of the day we had a really good childhood and i don't fault them for that you know the notion of like buying your kids things is not you know doesn't mean honestly i'm a parent to kids it does yeah you know that that they are they're very simple and they are transactional and they they're like almost like little kind of simple machines, you know? It's like they are need-based.

And if you need a Nintendo 64 and someone gives it to you, that's satisfying to you because you're not, you don't think expansively as a child. You think about like what you need. But you must have felt very loved by that. That's kind of, you know. Yeah, no. And that's exactly, and loved by that. That's kind of, you know. Yeah, no. And that's exactly, and I feel guilty. I think I remember- It's really, really sweet.

It's a sweet story. When I was like 23 out of college, like basically from the years of 23 to like 28 or 29, I had no money and I was like very poor. And thinking about those moments in my life, like in hindsight, how painful it must've been for my mom to be like, we can't do it. Yeah, yeah. And like, as a kid,

you don't get the realities of money. You don't understand, like all your parents are just like an endless ATM. And like, so you don't, you know, no matter how hard you try and teach your kids about it, you just, they don't get it. And I remember like being like, I don't know, just like miserable in a studio apartment in Chicago and like thinking about how poor I was and thinking about my mom, like thinking about how miserable I was being poor as a single person in my twenties when you're supposed to be poor. Thinking about my mom who was like roughly the same age as I, like only like maybe five or six years older than I was when I was like sitting in my apartment in Chicago, being like adding the pressure of having three children who want things and who you want to give things to. Yeah. It just made me feel so bad and also like great about like my,

my parents, you know, cause all the, all the negative stuff really came when I was like a teenager. Right. And that's sort of normal. And we've worked through that and we still have like issues and things we don't talk about.

I mean, that's the biggest thing is we just don't talk about anything. And that's sad. Yeah. Because I was going to ask you, because I'm always, as a parent, and as a, you know, as a product, as a child, through divorces and dysfunction, I was going to ask you about what, what do you think? Because that's a tense household, people that, parents that don't, where there's not an actual living marriage going on. That's a tense household.

And I was going to ask you, what do you think the result of that kind of tension is? But then to hear also, too, that there was such love, you know, it's really, do you think that those things kind of balanced out in a way that made it bearable or livable? They did. And it was like, it was, I mean, to be fair to me as a kid, like it was, it was wild because we would take separate vacations with my dad and then go on separate vacations with my mom. Wow. And like, no one. No explanation. No explanation. I remember when I was like nine being like, mom, why don't you kiss dad? Straight up, like bringing it out into the ether. And she's like, I do. And I remember leaving to go on a separate vacation to see my grandpa, my dad's parents with my dad, without my mom, leaving in the driveway and my mom being like, watch this. And like truly the most chaste kiss, peck on the lips. And I was

like, okay, but then the fact that you have to call attention to it, that's weird. That's even weirder than not doing it actually. And I, even nine, I knew that. I was like, this is bizarre. And like, yeah, and now I don't know. And so it was like, you know, I don't know exactly how it's affecting me psychologically because it's very low on my list of priorities to talk about in therapy because I've got a lot of other things. Sure. I'm sure you do.

I mean, it's obvious. But it's like, you know, I do wonder sometimes how that affects your sort of understanding of what an adult relationship should look like. Yeah, absolutely. And like what romantic love looks like. It's a modeling that you probably can't even fathom how long it takes to sort of unwire that. Because I had two extremes going on when I was a kid. I had that, that coldness and that absence of affection and love. And then I had television that was raising me and every model for what I thought a relationship

should look like. I was getting from fucking Nora Ephron and, you know, sitcoms, Rachel and Ross, you know? And so it was just like, of course now as an adult, like I have these like screwy, like things that I have had to like detangle in my brain yeah to be a functional like human right especially when it comes to relationships I don't know it's like wild yeah were they funny were you no no no one in my house so you're just sort of like you just I'm a full anomaly in a lot of ways my sister is probably the closest my sister was eight years older than me um very maternal like Like my sister, I would have identified as my best friend until I was the age of like 12.

Yeah. She would like take me to movies and like we would go, we would do stuff like one-on-one a lot growing up. Because I think my sister is the only thing my sister has ever wanted to do. So smart. Truly got a full ride to like North Central College in Naperville. Dropped out because all she wanted to do was be a mom. And it's great that she knew that about herself. Yeah.

Like, and I don't think that's a lesser decision on her part. No, not at all. But like, she truly like was playing mom with me like so much. Yeah. She was so maternal. But she's the closest thing probably to me. Like she was the first person I saw. She was in school plays and stuff like that that we would go and see.

And like, so she had like a little bit of the bug to like be on stage. Yeah. And like introduced me to a lot of movie musicals and stuff like that that we would go and see and like so she had like a little bit of the bug to like be on stage and like introduced me to a lot of movie musicals and stuff like that and like we had a lot of the same a lot of my like interests early interests were specifically because of my sister and so we had that in common but no one in my house is very outgoing or has an interest in being around a ton of people like my sister had friends but then was like much more much happier spending time with our family than like hanging out. Wow. Which is like so foreign to me because all I want to do is like be around people until I don't. So yeah, I was always the loudest. I was always like trying to make people laugh. I think like, were they a good audience? Yeah. I mean,

they liked, they knew that you you were rewarded yeah yeah my extended family everybody thought i was like so funny and it was usually because i was like saying something to like i had no i had like no filter and as like a young kid that's cute and then it starts to get frustrating and then you sort of have to like mold it into something else but i remember it being like i would just like say you know whatever was on my mind and people would laugh and that's basically what I've done for a career now so it's basically coming on podcasts um but I was four so yeah and then like as a teenager it started to become like more of a defense mechanism my sense of humor you know because like when you're being teased and picked

on it's like if you can deflect with comedy you either have to like hide i think like gay kids either like go further and further into the show and just trying to make themselves invisible and like i didn't want i couldn't do that i think because i was there was other things about me that made me too visible right and the other option i think for a lot of visibly gay kids is like oh just become the funny person right in your class you're like sort of the clown. And then it weirdly like takes the pressure off and stuff like that. And I think that's why there's the stereotype that gay men are funnier. Um, I think it's just because a lot of us have to be, you know, like very quick and, uh, in order to like, you know, deflect some of that attention. But yeah, I do. I, I just knew so many more that

were like, let me just like over and be small and be- And disappear. And disappear. And then that way it'll be easier. You've said that you knew you were gay when you were four. Yeah. And I mean, why? What about that?

I mean, did you have an idea what gayness was? No, I had no idea. I remember the memory I have and the memory that has been confirmed is like my brother and my sister and I on Friday nights, they would let us all sleep in like the living room or sleep in my sister's room together. It's like a sleepover. Yeah.

And I remember like at four, we were sleeping in my sister's room because they had just put glow stars, glow and dark stars on her ceiling. Yeah. And I remember being like, I like looking at naked boys better than naked girls. And I remember my brother and my sister thinking it was the funniest fucking thing they had ever heard in their life. See, you're already funny.

Yeah, exactly. Your entree into gayness is hilarious. It is so funny when people are like on YouTube, on my clips, like, oh, he's just getting up there and talking about being gay. And I'm like, yeah, it worked when I was four and it's working now, bitch. Okay. People are laughing. Yeah. But yeah. And that I didn't have, like, I just, I always had crushes on like boys and men and like on television and in real life and stuff like that. Like I was always like, yeah. And I just remember that from the earliest memories that I have of like, and I,

and then, and I, and then, and I was also like really sexual really early. Like I was jerking off at eight. Oh wow. So really young. Did anything come out? Very. I mean, we've turned blue here, but I mean, or medical. Cause I remember, this is the other thing.

So I was jerking off before I really had come. And then I remember like a year in something like a little bit came out and I thought I peed obviously, because I think we all do when that's happening. And your parents sure aren't telling you what's going on. No, and no one's talking. My dad had a book called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex, and I would take that off the bookshelf and read it and then truly never used. No one, it never had coalesced into a conversation. If you read the book, he certainly didn't use any of that knowledge on me.

That book was also where I found out what it meant to be gay. Cause there was like, it was like a Christian book. And then the last chapter was like 15 pages on homosexuality. Wow. But yeah, I remember that coming out. And then I remember going, turning to our encyclopedia Britannica and looking and cross, cross-referencing like penis, everything I could find. And then I, I still remember the moment I read semen,

the word semen for the first time. And I was like, I'm a genius. I cracked the case. That's what that is. Yeah. Wow. That's exciting. Eight years old.

That's crazy. Yeah. I remember the big ones were David Hasselhoff, Baywatch, Scott Bakula, Quantum Leap. Oh, you have a type. Famously, in the Quantum Leap intro credits, when he's in the suit and in the blue smoke, iconic imagery. Right.

Thought that's what a naked man's body looked like for ages. Truly thought he was fully nude. Right. Ken doll style. But it was hot. I was into that. Right, yeah. It. Ken doll style. But it was hot. I was like into that. Right, yeah. It's the mystique of that.

It's much less threatening. Ken doll is much less threatening. The other big thing I used to jerk off to was I have a collection of hundreds of Archie comics. Double and single digest. Wow. And every little comic where they would go to the beach. And Archie was wearing Speedos always, which I always found to be truly wild as a child they're easier to draw yeah I guess so yeah yeah and well and they were also different eras too and I didn't get that as a kid that they were like they were like older versions of Archie like

sort of smushed in these double digest and um I would jerk off to like those pictures yeah a lot of like Archie and Jughead and Reggie and Spudas? My childhood was much more sex positive, but in a, and like. In Geneva, really? No, I grew up in Yorkville. Yorkville? Yeah, because, well, I think, you know, in retrospect, I mean, I don't want to take up too much time with this, but my dad is gay.

That's why my parents divorced when I was four. My dad came out or was found out or something like that. my dad came out or was found out or something like that. So my mom's sister, Pat, was sort of like my, in many ways, like kind of like my inspiration to go into show business because she was funny and fun and like, you know, like the celebrity. We all have an aunt Pat. We all have an aunt Pat. She would come to town and that was like the highlight of the year when she

would come visit. And she was wild. Like she was what in those days. She was early 60s. She was sort of a pioneer of the sexual revolution, which just means she was a slut. That was what it was in those days. But she married a bunch of times, all kinds of different jobs, but always just an emphasis on having fun and being funny. And I went to visit her and her husband when I was, well, it was because it was like for my fifth or sixth birthday when I was young. And they had Playboys sitting out.

And I was fascinated by them. So she came to my birthday, having known that I liked Playboy magazines magazines and gave me a Playboy for my birthday which my mom my mom how old were you like five or six what I think it was five or six and which I mean in some ways I in some ways I think like it was a different time in that there you know the notion of like the objectification of women and and sort of the unrealistic portrayal of it but in terms of like treating a child as a sexual creature who's like has a natural urge to look at naked people that i don't have any problem with and like with my kids i think like my daughter one of my daughter's favorite books was a table a coffee table book that we got at an event of like 50

years of playboy and it was all just like throughout history. And like, she was fascinated with the bushes, like all the bush, like, look at all that hair. What's that? You know, but she loved, you know, it's like kids like to look at naked people. So it's no big deal. But I was, I remember I was,

I was thrilled to have this magazine. And I remember looking, laying on the floor on my stomach looking at it, and there was shots from an actual sort of playboy ski party, and Hugh Hefner's there, and when it starts, it's a ski party, and then it devolves into nudity, and there was one shot of a woman bottomless. And, you know, it was 72 or something. So there was, you know, there was pubic hair.

And that is indelibly etched into my brain forever. And I took the magazine over to my aunt. And I said, I said, Pat, you better, I said, Aunt Patty, you better take this back. And she said, why? I said, because it makes my wiener hurt. Because I was laying on the floor and had an erection. At the time, I could see her sort of like giggling, like, okay, honey. And I had to go even further, and I was like, and this one,

this picture especially, like pointing at this snatch. That one right there, that's the pointing it, pointing it to snatch. Oh, my God. That one right there. That's the one that really does it for her. And she's like, okay, honey, I'll take it back. But in retrospect, and I think it may have even been my wife years and years and years later when I told her this story, said, to me, it's obvious that your mom and her sister were trying to make sure that you were straight. Really?

I really do think she's right. Wow. I really do think that they were trying to. I mean, they were sex positive kind of, you know, who cares kind of stuff about that. Anyway, I mean, because like we swore in our household and we were the house that kids drank at. And I mean, there was morality and we were taught to be nice and to be polite and to be kind. Which is more important. Yeah, absolutely.

But all that kind of edge stuff, like, yeah, who gives a shit? But yeah, I do think that that was an attempt to sort of imprint straightness on it. I don't think that's how that works, but interest. Yeah, yeah. but no interest yeah yeah can't you tell my love's a growing now when do you think

that your parents started to become aware I came out to my mom like three different times before they like before it all really blew up I remember when I was

really young like eight or nine saying something you know what was wild is we were watching one of those specials where it was like, look at all these crazy commercials from overseas. Look at what they get.

Look at these fucking sexual commercials from overseas. Do you remember those like special compilations? Yeah. And like some of them would just be like insane. And I remember being like telling my mom, there's one from like Germany with a man in a speed up again, like a gymnast on a trampoline. Yeah.

And I don't even remember what they were selling. Trampolines. Yeah, I guess. And being like, I like that. And then I remember being 13 and having a much more sort of like self-actualized, like very real conversation with her being like, I think I'm gay.

And then truly not, like, I think we both blacked out. Really? You don't remember the response or anything? It was not negative. It wasn't like they didn't drag me to conversion therapy right away or anything. I mean, they did put me in therapy, Christian therapy. Yeah. And I'm sure she told him because he tried to get me to talk about different stuff.

And he was bad. He was not good at all. So it wasn't specifically conversion, but it was still, it was sort of conversion-based. Because I had so many emotions, like I was so deeply repressed. Like no one was talking about anything. I didn't feel like I could talk to my parents about anything. I was so, I would have like emotional outbursts.

I have like chemical stuff going on too that I'm sure was manifesting at a young age. And then it really came to a head when I was like 17, senior in high school, early days, senior of high school. And they read my journal and yeah. Fuck you parents. Joel's parents don't read his journal.

It was dark. Cause like there was just like, at that point I had been out at school for like a year and had like been, cause they sent me to, they were homeschooled me until my junior year. And then I went to public school and then within a month I had smoked weed, drank and come out of the closet. Yeah.

You know, it was like. And how did that go over in Decatur? Cause I'm always curious about that. In Plainfield. Or in Plainfield. I'm sorry. Coming out? Yeah.

Um, at that time, fine. Oh, okay. Good. I did not have a lot of like serious pushback except that I didn't even come out of church. Someone read, read like on my blog that I was hanging out with a gay kid and the youth leaders, because I think they could smell blood in the water about who I was, was like, we don't think you should hang out with this person and you can't come back to church unless you stop hanging out with him. And I was like, okay, bye. Um, cause I think I was ready at that point too. And sort of,

that's good to hear though about Plainfield because my son who's 18 is gay and has been out since he was 11. And I always wonder like, cause it was, you know, his school, the Gay Straight Alliance is the biggest organization at a school. And I wonder what it's like other places other than Los Angeles.

I had to, I started the Gay Straight Alliance at my school right before I left. And there was a little bit of pushback about it, but not a ton. Yeah. And then. How did you know about it? Had you just read about it online or something? Yeah.

I knew that they had existed. And like, I had had boyfriends who at their school, they had them and stuff like that. And so like, I was sort of aping that. But yeah, I actually had a pretty like decent time. I remember I got called a faggot like more when I was like on youth group trips. Yeah. Then like by like quote unquote Christian people. Yeah,

of course. Then I did at public school. Sure. Except it was so funny. I tweeted and it was like half a joke about a year ago and half real. I was like, does anyone remember the last name of the girl, Heather,

who called me a faggot at lunch? Uh, so junior year during 3b lunch and truly many people responded with her full name and i was like oh no no no no no but yeah uh so that was like the one thing did you look her up um i have yeah yeah yeah um truly i'll like look her any enemy i had in high school i'll look up only exclusively while i'm zooming down the 101 like anytime i'm driving i like, I have to look up someone from high school on Instagram now. Because that's how I want to die.

Right. That's good though. You know. Yeah. For some reason, that's the only time. But yeah, it was like, it was fine. It was weirdly like very, the only source of pushback I got was from my family. And that was pretty much it.

And like I moved out after they read my journal, I had like a full mental break. Um, because it was like a paradigm shift for both of us. You know, like I truly at that moment at 17 was like, I will never tell them I will go to college. I will leave. I will live a full life, second life that they will just never be privy to. And because, I mean, that was just the way we did it in my house. We didn't talk about things. There were so many secrets, so many conversations. I was obsessed with all of the secrecy in my house because people were always talking about things

and never letting us in about any of it. And I was like, I guess that's just how it's going to be. We're not going to talk about this. And so I had a full mental break. They sent me to an inpatient mental hospital for kids for a week. I was there for a week, came back, moved out. Was it Christian? No, it was like, yeah.

It was just like a normal one, which was actually probably better. Because there was like a lot of like, because they sent me there because they were like, this kid is fucked up because he's gay. And then a lot of the people at that facility were like, well, that's not a part of this. Right, right. That's not the issue. That's not the issue. Because I remember when they sent me, they made them test me for AIDS twice, HIV twice,

because I had talked about like giving blowjobs and stuff like that in my journal. And I was like, it was insane. And they thought it was insane. I remember really clearly that everyone at the facility, like all of my counselors and stuff were like, your parents seem a little nuts too. Was that helpful? And that was helpful because it did sort of like, okay,

I'm not insane about this. Like there's a lot of other stuff going on. And so I moved out and there was like one girl in one class that I had who was like, everyone knew cause I disappeared for a week from school and I was the voice of the announcements, not to brag. And so everyone knew that I was gone and everyone would call my house and my parents

would be like we don't know when he's coming back and so like what a mystery to present to this high school this like high school of kids and so everyone was like when I finally did show back up they're like where the fuck were you yeah what was going on and so everyone was really aware and so this one girl just to be, offered me a place on her couch. And then I showed up. Like, last on my list. I had sort of exhausted all of my other couch options at this point. And her parents were like, you can't just invite kids to stay at her house.

You don't know this person really well. And then, long story short, I ended up staying there the rest of the year. She's my best friend in the entire world to this day. Best man in her wedding. That was nice of her. And you get along with her parents, obviously. Yeah. And wildly, her dad is Methodist pastor in my town. Oh, wow.

And this is- Not that wild though. You know what I mean? No, they're, yeah. Yeah. The Methodists tend to be- Some Christians actually do it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And he, it was really actually the best situation I could have landed in because even after being out for a couple of years, I was like, I'm going to hell. You know, like I was like, well, I'm going to hell, but I might as well just like live it up, you know? And so it wasn't even like, even though I was out, it wasn't necessarily the healthiest headspace. And I remember her parents sort of like catching wind of that because I think I probably told Sarah that at some point. And her dad was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

That's not how this works and it really was like to have someone who was like in authority in a church yeah be like hell doesn't exist that's not how this works that's not how God works that's not how blah blah blah really was like oh my god like this weight lifting off of me and also it was just like nice to have again like that normalcy that I was seeking it was so interesting because it was just like nice to have, again, like that normalcy that I was seeking. It was so interesting because it was like not a normal situation by any means. She had like, it was a full family. Her dad's a paraplegic. Like she had two younger brothers. Like there's a lot going on in that house.

And then I was there. None of this is normal. And yet it was the, all of the normal, it was the most normal year of my life. Yeah. As a, as a before. The lack of tension of people that aren't living. Yeah, because I could come home and talk about boys with her mom.

And her mom was like interested in that. You know, it was just like, I was just able to live, because I was living a full double life for a year. Yeah.

For most of my life, honestly. And then just to be able to like kind of be at home and be myself and then be at school and be myself. You know, it was really,

really, it saved my life in a lot of ways. And now she's a pastor too. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's great. I mean she's a pastor too. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's great. I mean, that's nice too that you at least get some healthy Christians in your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, how do you end up in stand-up? How does that work? I was in, I moved, I went to theater school. I moved to Chicago because I wanted to do theater. I wanted to write plays. I wanted to act. I wanted to be involved in the. Step and Wolf.

Yes. I mean, that was the goal for me for a long, long time was like, that's. I wanted to act. I wanted to be involved in the... Steppenwolf. Yes. I mean, that was the goal for me for a long, long time was like, that's what I wanted. Like that, like very,

because at some point midway through college, I like went in being like Broadway musicals and then like midway through I was like, no, theater,

like plays. Right. Tom Stoppard. Serious things. Yeah. Like Tracy Letts, like let's do this. Shakespeare.

And so I moved, and Chicago seemed like the place to do that. Amazing theater scene to this day. I miss it. And yeah, I started doing theater there. I was doing theater for like a year there. And I was an ensemble member at this theater called The New Colony. And they were putting on a play that I was helping.

I was a writing assistant on called Five Lesbians Eating a Quiche. And it starred at the time beth stelling who is a you know very great fantastic stand-up yeah successful comic who's been on the show or conan a bunch and i remember like just having a conversation with her because at a certain point i like hit a wall with auditioning where i was like all of these like the bigger the paycheck got for these roles the less interesting the asian role would be or like i would only i was only getting called in for parts that were like exclusively like written to be asian and it was like very frustrating she was like very fresh well you're writing you know she's like you're a writer and you're a performer she's like just do stand-up

and i and beth was like one of the first like standups that I'd seen live. Like I went and saw one of her, like she had a bar show called Entertaining Julia with the Putterbaugh sisters. And I went and saw that. And then on Friday nights after five, those Z and Akisha theater would put on a variety show with like improv and sketch and stand up and stuff like that.

And one night someone dropped out and they're like, Joel, do you want to do something? And I was like, sure. And they gave me like eight minutes to do whatever I wanted. And I was like, I guess I'll do standup.up and i did it that was the first time i ever did it crushed nice uh and then bombed for like a full year yeah i think that's i think that's a fairly common yeah and um how long did you have to get material um a couple days okay that's good yeah i never believe these people that say, buddies dared me at an open mic

and I just went up and started. I just feel like, no, you didn't. You didn't just wing it for 10 minutes. Yeah, I remember being on the train, writing down little bits and stuff like that. But here's the thing. I did stand up so poorly in Chicago as just like an art form

because I thought you do a set and then you don't do those jokes ever again. And then you write a full new eight minutes every single time. I like that ambition, though. I know. And listen, like, I had a lot of material, most of it very bad for many, many years. It was like I was like pushing myself to write a ton of material in those first couple of years. Your entire early career was one long improv show, basically.

Basically, yeah. Like, yeah, you gotta sit through the kind of not so good stuff to get to the good stuff. I still do that. I still, like, try so much bad shit

and then, like, find a good, like, because I don't write anything down. I never have. Oh, wow. You carry your whole act in your head.

My set lists are just words, like pony, like grub hub. Like, I will write those words down and that will cue me in. But I write mostly on stage. And so I'll just be doing like sort of forming. And New York tightened me up a lot. Because in Chicago, it was very loose and very like stories and like meandering and a lot of that.

And New York, when I moved to New York and I was doing like three open mics a night where you're waiting two hours to do a minute and a half, 90 seconds of material. Yeah, yeah. It's like, you can't. You got to get to the punchline and you have to do it fast. And you're sitting through so many tedious people too. I felt this about theater and I feel this even more so about stand-up. Watching bad stand-up sometimes really makes me a better stand-up than watching good stand-up sometimes. Oh, yeah.

Because I've always been a very critical. Cause I'm like, I'm, I have, I've always been a very critical person. I'm always like watching it and something in the absence of what I'm watching is more striking to me sometimes than seeing someone who's really, really great. Cause I would rather like be like, Oh,

I could do that better than this person. Not like cribbing jokes or anything, but like, but rather than watching like a really amazing standup being like, I'll never be that good. Yeah. I know. I absolutely understand you.

And I have found I found especially and I do think that there is a specific kind of Midwesternness and a sort of like the fray, like don't toot your own horn. That was something I used to hear my grandfather say. So the notion of saying, well, first of all, I'm going to get in front of up in front of everybody in a room where all the lights are off except they're all pointing on me. And I'm going to stand on a higher level. And everyone's going to shut up and listen to me. Just is against my wiring. So I needed a motivator, especially because when it came to the notion of I'm going to do this for a living. And one of the biggest motivators is that guy sucks.

And he makes a living at it. Fuck fuck i can do better than that guy yeah and that you know and that's like it seems you know like that kind of relativism is and i use it for behavior too you know just like how to be a better human being most of what i know about how to being a better human being is being around people and going like oh fuck don't do that like, oh, fuck, don't do that. Like, don't do that. Like, don't make that your goal or don't treat people that way. You know, no, I think negative examples can be thrilling, you know, and really, really useful. Now, for stand-ups, just from sort of an artistic point of view, like people that are sort of starting out, they want to get into this.

This is, I think, under the what have you learned kind of question here. What would you say to them? Like, is there something about the actual art of this that you could be helpful? You know, stand-up is the weirdest one because it's so nebulous. Like, there's just so many ways to do it well.

And there are so many, and there's just like, I hate, I actually hate getting prescriptive about like what standup is or isn't. At the end of the day, because especially coming up in New York,

I was seeing so many different like kinds of like alt comedy that was good. And it is so weird because like also standup is the feedback is there immediately.

If people are laughing, then it works. If they're not, it doesn't. Like you don't, there isn't much else to do. So whenever i have people ask me this sort of question i always say sort of the same thing which is like what i found most helpful for me when i was coming up in new york especially is just find the people that you think are funny and that find you funny and sort of like

surround yourself by them and work with them like coming up it's harder because stand-up is sort of more solitary than like sketch or improv or anything like that but like i just found like the people that i surrounded myself in those early days my class of stand-ups pushed me artistically and pushed me to be funnier but were there to support to it the people that you surround yourself with in the beginning are so so important yeah i find because i it's so miserable at the beginning stand-up is also so frustrating because there is no like people are like how did you get x and it's like truly the way i got my manager was so a stand-up is so like a roll of the dice of you have to

consistently be killing and killing when the right person is in the room in the right moment when they're going to see it you know and it's just like when they're in the right mood and so it's it's all such a crapshoot and so it's so miserable that the people you surround yourself at the beginning are the things that are going to get you to stay and to do it you know keep doing it i think like the other thing is for me is being, always being prepared for when that moment happens. Cause like when I had my first meeting with my manager, he was like, what do you want? And being able to articulate that question as part of being prepared. Also, like I am always preparing for it.

Had you made a conscious decision to be ready for that question or? Yeah. You just have to be, cause you just don't know when it's going to come. And it sometimes will come earlier than you need it to be or later than you. I'm always thinking, I'm preparing myself for the career moment five years ahead of where I think I am actually. Like, I'm always moving the goalposts, which is like sort of sometimes can be psychologically frustrating because I'm like, I'm a complete failure because I haven't reached X. Because I remember

for years it was like all I want is a late night set all I want is all I wanted to do is get paid to do stand-up and then that happened and then suddenly it's like well that's not good enough you know like you'll never be satisfied and that's a double-edged sword for sure yeah because I'm always preparing for that next because I remember like he when I met with my manager he was like do you have a sample and I was like yeah I have sample. I have a script that I've just written. And like, that's the hardest thing to do is to like do that kind of preparatory work when no one is asking you for it. But like, and also to, to have the wherewithal to know ahead of time what they're going to be asking when you're in that situation, what is that person going to ask you? You know?

Yeah. And so just like, even if you're like i'm so far away from this x y or z thing it's just being able to be prepared for it when it happens because you just know never know when it will be dropped into your lap is so important yeah i i definitely relate to what you're saying because especially if because what i've always taken from what i've learned in show business is that if you make something, and I learned this from early on from Conan O'Brien, who I think had really decided at a certain point, he knows himself very well. He's a very ambitious person. He's an amazingly talented person with a gigantic brain. And he decided, I want to be a talk show host. I think that he, you know,

he had been a comedy writer and all that stuff, but he decided he was going to do that. And he was, you know, he was a machine that was just about that. And I think I saw early on, I mean, he may feel different. I feel like I saw him once attaining that, being a little lost in a certain way, like just sort of personally, you know, like I say, he might say different, but, and it made me feel like, make your goal a process. Like make your, make it be like the best, whatever you're going to be, or just, and something you said earlier, you know, be, be open to, because I, you know, in many ways, my career, it was very kind of lackadaisical, just kind of getting into like, oh, this looks like fun and this looks like there's opportunity. And then when a door opens, you've got to step through it. You can't worry and you can't be shy and you can't be... My first agent, I was in the Real Life Brady Bunch, which was a show that was in Chicago, which for people who don't know,

was just live stagings of the Brady Bunch and it became a huge hit. We were doing it in New York at the Village Gate. I was just playing Mike Brady, which is the most boring part. But a casting person stuck around after the show, asked to see me, said, I have a friend who's an agent. You should go see her. I went and saw this woman. I don't even remember her last name, Molly something. But just great old Broadway agent, New Yorkie agent,

sat across from her desk, talked with her, joked with her for an hour. She got on the phone, started calling casting, New York casting people, but like CBS and ABC, all these people that she knew. And she said at one point, what? No, he's not just a funny kid. He can do everything. He can do everything. And I thought, how do you know?

And then I realized like, oh oh it's all horseshit and it's incumbent upon me to just it would be rude for me to deny the horseshit I'm gonna go with the horseshit because if she says and I always I felt that way early on in auditions I would be very intimidated by these established people and I'd be like I gotta fake it yeah you know and that's and that's what you do you You fake it and you just have, there's not a lot of room for self-doubt. I mean, if you do have the self-doubt, keep it to yourself.

For sure. I wish everybody had this. Can I say one last thing? Sure, of course you can. This is very practical. Yes, yes, of course. There's so much about this industry that you can't control.

Yeah. So much. But there are so many things you actually can control, including, and I know this is so hypocritical because of how we started our day, be on time, have your shit memorized. If that's a part of whatever you're doing and answer your fucking emails. It's not charming to be late. It really isn't because, and this is the injustice of it. People will never notice that you're on time. People will never, ever, ever notice if you are on time, if you've answered the email correctly, or if you have the lines memorized, because that is what you are expected to do.

They will only ever remember if you are chronically late, chronically unprepared. And an asshole. Yeah, and an asshole. And an asshole. Be nice. Yeah, that's the other thing is like be nice, because that's the only thing. And it sucks because it's like there's no reward in being on time. No one will ever comment like, oh, this person is so punctual.

I mean, the later you get into this industry, it does become a more chronic thing because people will just show up late and so it does become almost more like, wow, this person is the only one on time. But you want to be that person more than anything else. And the other thing is like, there are so many factors that you can't control. The people who are assholes and late

and unprepared all the time, you have to be astronomically talented. Absolutely. Because especially now, the way that comedy is so saturated, there are so many of us. You are not a commodity that is necessary for anybody in this town. If you don't want to work, be an asshole. Yeah. If you don't want to work, if you don't want to work for a long time and make this be your career, be an asshole. Be selfish. Expect people. Expect there to be two sets of rules. long time and have that make this be your career be an asshole you know be be selfish expect people

expect there to be two sets of rules that rules for everybody else and ones for you because that happens i know people that work their asshole their way out of this business you know i i you're absolutely right yeah it's just not like i think people are like i i know so many people who are like i'm just a mess and that's just who I am. It's my brand. Sorry, I'm 15. And it's like, no one likes that. No one finds that charming.

No, no. And even if that's your shtick, that's your milieu, that's for on camera. That's for on stage. But off stage, you got to show up. You got to be there for people. This has been kind of great. And I think we've kind of covered most of everything. I mean, we've got what you've learned, you know.

I mean, what, I guess kind of more in a personal sense, like, is there something, like, you're obviously a very sort of analytical person. And I wonder if, like, having been through really kind of, you know, like a very interesting life with a lot of kind of adversity and denial, you know, people denying you who you are and what you are. What do you feel like instead of like, how do you be standup? How do you be a standup? Like, how do you be happy? Like, do you, like, you know, do you have,

do you have any kind of like thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, it's strange. Cause like I, you're catching me on a good day cause I am like the last couple of weeks, like been pretty happy and I usually can't control that. We checked with your manager. He's on an uptick. Get him in there. I think like for me in terms of like what I've learned about how to sort of be here and be like happy and present or whatever that means to anybody is like thinking truly about, I am always sort of like, this is so lame, but it is like golden rule forward. Like I'm always, I like empathy is not something I necessarily think can be learned, but you can fake it. You can sort of like put it there.

I'm like an empathetic person almost to my detriment sometimes because I'll like truly like, I've like called back Delta to try and track down a woman who I was rude to once in a moment of stress because I felt terrible about the way I treated her and like truly been like,

nope, you need to find her. Oh my goodness. Because I mean, it's just like stuff. Like, I think like I am so, so much of what I had shame about growing up hurt no one, you know, so much about like what I'm shamed for now as an adult hurts no one. And it's so hard to sift through all of the shame that we, that is just so like tangible in all of our lives because of the way this country runs and the way that, you know, Western society is, any society is,

there's different aspects to it, but to be able to sift through that and be like, okay, what is re like, what is something that affects someone's life negatively that I have done that I should feel? Cause I don't think shame is universally blanketly bad. Yeah.

Oh, no. Absolutely. Absolutely not. Like, what is the thing that I did wrong that I should, like, change? What is the thing that has, like, affected other people? And then what is the stuff that is, like, completely artificial? Yeah. You know, and has affected no one else but me and it's a choice that I've made

it's bullshit basically and being able to really think about that is really important because it was for so long just a blanket over everything that I did and everything that I thought and how I acted and my stand up has been truly a reaction to that in a lot of ways

it's like a joke how open I am about a lot of things in my life. And I think people do get the impression that I'm like 90% transparent about my life on stage and stuff like that. And that's a fallacy because I'm not, there's still a lot of stuff that I don't talk about, but like the stuff that I do choose to be like transparent and open about, like, I do think it is like in a reaction to the secrecy and the shame and the, all the stuff that was hidden that I wanted to talk about when I was growing up. And I think we're all so much healthier if we do open up about

certain stuff. I don't know. Yeah, there's nothing shameful about humanity. I mean, I've been going through a divorce and I find sometimes people ask me stuff and I don't, you know, and it's, I don't, like, I'm not bad mouthing anybody in this situation. But when I talk about like, you know, I was the other day, I was talking to like some of the electricians on the show about like how much I've been crying lately. And I, you know, and I, I could tell they were kind of like, I don't know, maybe a little weirded out by it, but I just kind of felt like, no, I, you know, I fucking cry all all the time now i've cried more in the last four months than i have in the previous 10 years and that's just like i don't i don't have any shame about that you know that's just well it's crying we all fucking cry what's the big deal and it's it's weirder that we don't talk about it yeah absolutely well you talked about just you just uh get to to the where are you going part of this,

you said that you've got these milestone, you know, goalposts. Yeah, I mean, I want. Would you care to share some of those with us? I want to be, I mean, I want to be Phoebe Waller fucking Bridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want, basically what I want is I want to be an actor, a producer, and a writer. Yeah. That's what I want to do.

I mean, that was always what I was building up to sort of be like, I look at like Mindy's career, like The Office was like such a huge formative moment for me is like learning that like, oh, she was a writer on that show. And she was on the show and she created that character and made it something different than anything you'd seen an Indian American woman be on television prior to that. And so specifically her. And so specifically her. And like, I remember like researching all of that and figuring literally Mindy Kaling's career is the reason I thought I could go into like comedy writing. Cause up until then I was like,

I'm going to write plays and drama and like be on six feet on like right on six feet under basically. But the office meanwhile was my favorite show, but I was like, I can't do that. I'm not funny. And like truly like reading about the way Mindy like sort of found herself on that show But I was like, I can't do that. I'm not funny. And truly reading about the way Mindy sort of found herself on that show,

I was like, oh, that's what I want to do. And then her own show. And then Lena Dunham. I know there's a lot to say about Lena Dunham, but I do love that show. And I think she did incredible work on it. And to have done, to be an executive producer, star and writer at 24 is insane.

I mean, I think we were all mad at her for good reason. It's like people like that are like, that's what I want to do. Yeah. And I'm not like, I'm so pleased to be on this NBC show. Like unbelievable. Because again,

like the, like it's so weird to be in the offices slot on NBC and like to have grown up watching the Thursday night must see comedy block. Yeah. You know, like again, like that block raised me as a kid,

like, like everything, friends and Seinfeld, of course, but also like the single guy and Caroline in the city, you know, like I watched it all. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm so pleased to do it, but it is, it does feel weird to be at this huge marquee moment in my life and be like, Oh, I don't have, like, I don't have control over,

like, I'm just an actor. and i never thought it was so it's so weird to like go from wanting growing up wanting to be an actor yeah and then like real being like no no i'm you should a writer is a much more realistic goal and then that's sort of morphing into this and then now suddenly like it's the weirdness of this industry is that now i'm well well, wait, I did it. I now have the dream that I had at nine. Yeah. But it ended up through like a pathway of different stuff.

Right. So it feels weird. But eventually, yeah, I want that. I want to be like Greg Berlanti. I want to have like a fucking empire. Yeah, yeah. It's auteur. It's being an auteur.

Yeah. It's being the author of your own things. And that's something that like, you know, I'm 52 years old and I have, that has been an issue for me throughout my career is like, what do I want to say? You know, and I still am not sure. You know, I mean, so it's really the fact that you're as young as you are and you're aware of that and you're working hard on it is, is very enviable to an old fart like me. So, you know, keep it up.

You got to write about aunt Pat. That's her story. That's, that's the show. All right. I'll write about it. All right. I'll do a whole,

when I have my own production company, when I'm Greg Berlanti, I'm green lighting aunt Pat. That's what I'm doing. That's the first project I'm picking up. She has, she has Alzheimer's now pretty bad. But she's still, she's like

the happiest person in the memory care ward. The nurses fight over who gets to take care of Pat. And the other day I went to visit and she's still funny because I said, so what have you been doing? And she said,

I have no idea. Yeah, she's still very, very funny. Joel, thank you so much. You did. He just laughed his head off. Truly broke the studio at Pat is a legend and an icon. Yeah. Well, Joel, so are you.

This was really, really great. This was really a great conversation. I was really looking forward to this. Yeah. Well, Joel, so are you. This was really, really great. This was really a great conversation. I was really looking forward to this. Yeah, well, thank you. I was too. And thank you for sharing so openly. And get a wallet. He's got his whole stack,

his life around with a rubber band. Credit card, SAG-AFTRA card. I got pickpocketed in Chicago in 2012 during Pride. And the next day I got to my desk, uh, at Groupon and picked up a rubber band and was like, I guess I'll use this as a money clip for a while. And I have not had a wallet since because every time I get like, somebody will gift me a wallet or I'll see, I'll like try, I'll like, I'll look at stores at wallets and I'll be like, I don't know. It just doesn't work as well as this rubber band does. So why I, this is like

poor kid, kid person logic. Because I'm always like, this works and it's free. Right, right, right. So why would I do that? I literally got gifted a Fendi wallet. And I was like, but it can't fit as many cards as I have around this wallet. So why would I use it? Yeah, you have.

Well, it looks like there's about 10 different cards in that. Yeah, yeah. You never know when you might need the SAG police pull you over. And they're like, show us your ID. I need to see your SA sure sure and you do it is people he does keep the sag card i have my writers i have my writer's guilt that's an accident they they know it's no accident i usually have my writer's guilt card out on this yeah that's that's got a little more prestige than just an actor. All right, well, Joel, thank you so much. And God bless you.

Not that I believe in God, but I don't know how else to say it. And good luck. And thank you so much. And thank you out there for listening to The Three Questions with Andy Richter. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco and Earwolf production. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco and Earwolf production. It's produced by me, Kevin Bartelt, executive produced by Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco,

and Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, associate produced by Jen Samples and Galit Zahayek, and engineered by Will Beckton. And if you haven't already, make sure to rate and review The Three Questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. already, make sure to rate and review the three questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.