The Three Questions with Andy Richter - John Flansburgh

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

John Flansburgh (They Might Be Giants) joins Andy Richter to talk about the notion of "selling out",  the magic of Dial-A-Song, They Might Be Giants' new project "Book", and more.

hey everybody i'm talking to john flansburg you all know that though because uh you tuned into it that's the thing i like the intros to a podcast to me always seem silly because you it's not like you happened upon this. You know what I mean? I, I guess so. I don't know. You dropped your laptop and this came on, you know,

although I think, you know, I mean, just as an active podcast consumer myself, I find, I find that there is a lot of just sort of exploratory stuff. Like I've, I, you know,

and, and I actually will listen to podcasts that i have no idea what's happening and some of my favorite podcasts are people just talking to each other who have no like don't even have a like a toehold on fame and they're just kind of you know like they're friends and they're they're shooting the shit in this way that friends shoot the shit. And I find that to be extremely comforting, especially right now. Right, right. I'm having a lot of conversations myself. So it's just like having that weird familiar thing is really interesting.

Yeah, I'm not a big podcast consumer, but I do find that the ones that grab you are few and far between. Yeah. Well, I think it's not radio. People try. They try to be something that they're not a lot of be some kind of or similar to some kind of witty person that they admire who's, you know, has a job as a witty person and then do that. And it just it's just better if you're yourself, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's you know, there are definitely like some, you know, kind of climy ones that try to be more like radio shows. Personally, I like the weird, lumpy ones, but I understand that a lot of people probably just think it's dead air.

But Andy, I know that you're asking the questions, and the three questions aren't – I don't have to ask you three questions, but before you get too deep into your questions, I've listened to your show. Yes. And I've noticed two things. One thing is you do not say like or you know. And you're younger than me, and I still say like and you know pretty much every sixth and seventh and eighth word.

I try not to. I try not to. Now, are you self-aware enough as you're on the mic that you should not say the words like and you know yes yes and it is something and it's and it's also it was you know it's something that started with being on television and being on the Conan show and when I mean not that I ever had long soliloquies on the Conan show but did you get notes just not no no it's all it's all self on the Conan show. But did you get notes just not saying? No, no. It's all self-directed.

It's all just when I listen to myself. And I actually don't listen to a lot of these because I don't enjoy my own work enough. But this one is for the Hall of Fame. This one is going on a loop around the house. We're going to get real. And my second question for you, and I'm kind of impressed with this because I feel like you're really topping Marc Maron with the format of this show, which is hard to do. Because his show kind of broke new ground in the no research department. Yes.

But I realized as I was looking at the actual three questions that this show – you could do this show with anyone at any time. And you'd just be – like, you do not need to do a lick of research for this. No. It's helpful. And there always is. No, it's helpful. And there always is. Honestly, there's like an obligatory Wikipedia kind of page that comes to me from someone involved.

Wikipedia Brown. Yeah, yes, from Wikipedia Brown. And so it's all very basic. And there's also been times where the research team, which I think Matt or Galit, the booking producer, it falls through the cracks and I don't get something. And I think Matt or Galit the booking producer it falls through the cracks and I don't get something and then I just go to Wikipedia it's basically right you know it's just sort of like the but yeah that was that was one of the things I wanted to do about this is uh with this podcast is a I don't like homework that's why I'm an improviser because you know a

stand-up has to do homework. Like, they have to, like, think about what they say and rehearse it and then go say it on stage. Whereas I like to be as surprised as the audience as to what's coming out of my mouth. And the initial kind of thing was, you know, I've been in therapy for years, and I like the language of therapy. I think it's very useful and very interesting. And I like people who are conversant in it. And I wanted to kind of replicate a therapeutic conversation in this podcast. And I felt like those three things are sort of like looking at your past, looking at how

it's affecting your present and your future, and then drawing conclusions from it. That's the therapeutic process in and of itself. So that's what I wanted these questions to cover. But I do, you know, there is a little bit of research, but you're absolutely right. I could talk to somebody cold and they would, all I risk is they're being slightly offended

that I don't know anything about them. Right. Today's guest is Sirhan Sirhan. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Hey, guys. Talking to a singer named Taylor Swift. Right.

I don't know who he is. Right. So, yeah. I believe he's the drummer in the Foo Fighters, but I'm not sure. See, I love podcasts that have lots of homework. Like, I love research podcasts. I love, like, deep dive, like, you know, sort of, you know, somebody writing a thesis kind of podcast. But I just don't have the patience.

Do you track crime podcasts? Not so much. Crime, actually, I have a lower tolerance for as I get older. It's not as fun to me. I understand that there's a catharsis that happens with a lot of people with crime in the way that a horror movie makes you feel sort of in charge of your fear of a monster or monster or being murdered and i think that that happens but to me they just kind of um it just it gets bleak it gets bleak with watching a lot of too much true crime kind of stuff i get bummed out by just as if the world doesn't you know the world doesn't need any help bumming me out these days. So do you, do you listen to this podcast decoder ring?

I could definitely give that a hearty two thumbs. No, no, no. Oh, it's a really good one. It's like a cultural, it's like sort of, um, it's, it's not, it's not like myth busting exactly, but it's sort of about like, uh, uh, it's just about culture, but it's just, it's just like deep dives into very specific topics. They actually had a really good episode a couple weeks ago about the concept of selling out. Yeah. And how selling out is actually, it is an inmodern idea now.

Like, it's obsolete. Like, in an era of social media and sponsored content, if you're a 25-year-old influencer, there's no notion of selling out. Just doing your celebrity job, there's no fear of appearing inauthentic. Yeah, that is the culmination of your work, is selling your work. Yeah, yeah. No, I can see that.

I mean, you know, the whole notion of selling out has always been silly, you know? I mean, it's... Well, it's complicated, though. I mean, I feel like as, you know, like, you know, as being the age that i am like i was fully hypnotized by the beatles which as like a role model for somebody in a band um and especially in a band like they might be giants is like uh extremely uh compelling and

it took a really long time to realize like you, you know, I mean, first of all, you know, the Beatles were this exceptional thing. But also just the culture moves on. Like, you know, it's like you do have to kind of sometimes you've got to just hustle to stay alive. Yeah. And that was, I mean, I guess I'm just still jealous of the Beatles, is what I'm trying to say. Well, what do you, I mean, why do you bring up the Beatles on the subject of selling out? Oh, I mean, for rock bands, they sort of set the, they kind of did the full, you know, basically the Beatles were introduced to the culture as a band not that different than the Backstreet Boys, you know. Right. They were extremely commodified, and probably a lot of smart people just saw them and thought,

well, this is a band with a huge sell-by date on it. And they kind of went the extra mile just in terms of quality to prove that they were going to stick around and um but they also did all these things like they didn't have their their songs used in advertisements they didn't they did they kind of went very hard on the like anti-commercial i mean they really they really set the the table for how rock music was going to sell itself and not sell itself. I see. And they really went at it as like an art project. And that's still influential for me.

I mean, we do a lot of things today, Might Be Giants. It's funny because there's a level of calculation in every project that you're involved in. And we certainly worry a lot about a lot of things that ultimately don't matter that much. But I feel like we do worry about appearing inauthentic. Yeah. And maybe that's the most poser thing to worry about. But I remember years ago, I did an interview with a college student in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And she knew a lot about the band. And it was a really interesting conversation.

And at the very end, the tour manager came in to say, guys, your time's up. You got to go. And John, as soon as you have the set list for tonight's show, give it to me. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And she just looked at me and was like, you do a show with a set list? And I was like, yeah. I mean, I think that's pretty common.

And it was very clear to me that her notion of what we were doing on stage changed completely. Like, she was profoundly disappointed that we were using a set list. It was like somehow that that was extremely unspontaneous and unmusical and, like, essentially inauthentic. Right. And I don't know if she's only into jam bands. I think that's a jam band aesthetic that some people really probably cherish.

But I mean, it's not the kind of show we do, that's for sure. It's not really the kind of show you can expect anybody to do. It's like you also write the songs down, too. You know what I mean? Everything that you do has been somewhat planned and authored. It's like when you make a mixtape for somebody, you think about what song goes before this song and what song will go after that song you know what i mean like yeah i mean i have no i have no explanation for it you know i i would recommend to any band you use a set list yes yes get it know what you're going to do you maybe even memorize the set list yeah yeah but uh i don't know it was it was it was a weird moment yeah well you know i think too one thing thing about the Beatles is that the Beatles had the luxury of being bigger than Jesus, you know, to borrow a phrase. Like, they were so gigantically huge and such a truly, in some ways, like an oppressive art entity, you know, like that to the, where they,

you know, destroyed the charts for all different kinds of, of, of groups and stuff. And that they were just, you know, rewriting what popular music was, you know, Sergeant Pepper comes out and it's like, I mean, which is kind of a beach boys copy in the first place but they're but they bring it to everybody and everybody's like oh we got to do this now you know right right and then the and just you know the aesthetics of their movies and their and their you know just what they chose to war it was so consuming that i don't think that they needed to sell you know they already were, how much more exposure do they need? What help did they need?

And I don't think that that kind of outside of somebody like Beyonce, I don't think that that kind of thing happens anymore. You know, I don't think, I don't think there's Elvis's or Beatles or I don't know, Michael Jackson's, you know, I guess Taylor Swift is kind of huge. I mean, they're still huge artists, but it's a different, you know, music doesn't mean as much as it used to, I don't think, in popular culture. No, absolutely not. I mean, I think, you know, you just see, like, gaming.

You just see how important gaming is in kids' lives. Or even just, you know, I mean, there's subcultures that just totally take over. But, you know, I think the Beatles did a pretty good job. Yeah, I just, you know, the notion of just like selling out, I just think, I mean, you know the difference between, and I mean, I've said no to things that I think would be tacky. You know the difference between tacky and not tacky. But I think that to like get hung up about

people people sharing their work in a way that they find appropriate to them. I don't have any problem with it. Like I don't it doesn't break my heart when I hear, you know, Lust for Life on the 55th commercial. You know what I mean?

Right, right, right. Well, I mean, Lust for Life. It's like, okay. Right, right, right. You know? Get some money, Iggy. But, you know, but I think that's actually a very specific and interesting example because Lust for Life for Iggy Pop, like, when that happened,

and I don't even know what, was it a Gap ad? There was some TV ad that had Lust for Life in it. And it was right around the same time as that. It works for everything. It's a killer track. You know, Soupy Sales Kids, those guys make a great rhythm section. It's notable.

It's fantastic. Oh, just a very strange sidebar. Where that song was recorded, it's at this place called Hansa Studios in Berlin that I have photographs of because there's a reverb setting on digital audio that you can use that has a picture of it. It is the most beautiful studio in the world. It's like a cathedral. Oh, really? It's got all wooden walls.

You would think, like like where was that recorded oh they they actually made an ashtray that was uh 40 feet wide and they recorded it inside the ashtray for the it's such a it's such a gritty kind of recording you know it's like so filthy and when you see where they recorded it's It's like, they might as well have all been wearing tuxedos. Yeah. Yeah. But, but, but yeah, the, I guess, I guess, you know,

it's like everything, everything has changed. I mean, I'm curious, like what was, was there anything that you didn't do that you had an opportunity to do that you now in the fullness of time have come to regret? Because I can think of one thing that I didn't do that.

I really think was, I mean, I think we were chumps to walk away from. Oh, do you want to share what it is or? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a movie. It was a movie called citizens band that it was, it was the young actor who kind of, he kind of did it like a Jack Nicholson kind of impression. Oh, Christian Slater? Christian Slater. Yeah. It was like his very first movie.

Is that what it was? It was a Christian Slater vehicle very early on in his career. And we had just signed a big publishing deal. This is very like like, business. Like, I've been told to never talk about business stuff because it always seems very weird. But basically, when you sign a publishing contract, if you're a band, like, you get signed by a major label, you will get signed by a publishing company. And one of the first things they want to do is land a big placement for your song to kind of justify your existence and recoup a lot of their investment with a big fat placement.

So like, you know, get you a movie theme. It's just a way for people to, you know, it's part of the sort of log rolling enterprise that is, you know, medium-sized rock music. Yeah. And so right after we signed our publishing deal, we got approached about just having one of our songs featured in this movie. And this is like 1990, and things are kind of going crazy for the They Might Be Giants as a band.

And they basically just were like, we have this very mediocre movie, dump, you know, pull up a dumpster full of cash to your house and give you all this money for nothing. What do you think? And we were like, send us a VHS. We've got to check this out. And I just think like, you know, it meant nothing. And at worst, it would have just, a bunch of people would have heard our song. And like a couple of years later, I was talking to Charles Thompson from the Pixies, and they have a couple of songs, I think maybe just one song, but a very prominent feature in that movie. And he was just like, oh, it was great.

You know, everything about it was great. And I just thought, man, I like totally blew it. You know, like, what was I, you know, what was I thinking? Like, what would the bad part be? Can't you tell my loves are growing? All right, well, let's get to the questions part. Where are you from, John? I am from Lincoln, Massachusetts, which is where I met my lifetime long collaborator, John Linnell, going to the public schools there. How old? Well, John's a year older than me.

So, like, he has that permanent kind of older thing happening in our relationship. But it's like he was, I guess we really got to know each other. We knew each other in junior high school a little bit. Yeah. But when we went to high school, we started working at the high school newspaper. And there was a whole group of kind of like-minded people at this newspaper.

And we just became friends. And, um, and we just became friends and, uh, you know, uh, we went our separate ways after high school for a few years and then met up in New York city, uh, in the early eighties, I was going to the Pratt Institute and John arrived from Rhode Island, uh, where he was already in a rock band that was, they were kind of like too big for Providence, Rhode Island. So they were like going to try to get signed out of New York. It was very much the, you know, thin tie scare of 1981. Yeah. But they were a great band. In fact, John Andrews was the songwriter in that band,

and he has gone on to be a huge producer of animation. I mean, he worked with a million projects, like King of the Hill and Beavis and Butthead and stuff like that. Was this out of RISD? Was this out of... I think some people were from RISD and some people were from Brown. Yeah.

I mean, they were like a power pop band. They're very much like, you know, kind of under the spell of Elvis Costello and Joe Jackson and poppy stuff. And they had a female singer and they had a really good guitar player. They were like... They were... It was an interesting band to kind of be the... and Joe Jackson and Poppy stuff. And they had a female singer and they had a really good guitar player. They were like, they were, it was an interesting band to kind of be the,

I mean, we were not the, by any means, the baby brother band of, they were called the Mundanes. But they were trying to work within the world of, you know, back then there, you know, there were just so many, there was so much common wisdom and so many gatekeepers to what a band should be, like how to do it right. You know, how to get, how to get a manager, how to get, how to play clubs, how to get on the radio, how to get signed. All those things were sort of, you know, a lot of people were walking around like these are like very quantifiable

things. Right. And, and I think, you know, John, you know, would, you know, come home from these gigs, come back to the apartment. We both lived in the same apartment building in different apartments. And I just felt like, you know, John had such an interesting point of view and, you know, we just had such a good time together. And sort of there was, there was this sort of shared sensibility of all these kids that worked on the

paper. And I just thought we should just do this kind of for fun. And which is not to say like, we didn't want to like get gigs and do stuff, but it just seemed like success it seemed like it was just as likely that success would find us as we would find success you know i mean so we just kind of went our own way and uh and just made this project that just seemed like you know from our imaginations like just the sensibility of it, like the whole balancing act of trying to figure out how to have humor in what we were doing and not have it be just like a one-time theatrical experience.

Like, you know, there's a lot of comedy music that it like hits really hard, but it doesn't really hold up to repeated listening. And I think- Right. And it's kind of a novelty. Oh, I think it sort of is defined by the word novelty. Yeah. And, you know, I don't mean to, you know,

say that that's not good in its own way. And sometimes, like, so inspired, you just want to hear it over and over. I mean, I could listen to that Tracy, the werewolf's song from 30 Rock. Like, I could listen to that song every day for the rest of my life. Yeah, yeah. You know, so it's not like I like funny songs okay.

But I guess, like, you know, our ambition was to kind of find, kind of create a universe that would like hold these ideas and and still have the allure of like a regular musical album yeah well i think too well i want to go back i want to go back to lincoln but i do think i think too like what you guys represented was there was a lack of, there was definitely a work ethic. There was an identity that you were forming, you know, that you had, you could tell you had a hunch at what it was and probably mostly what you weren't.

But I also think it was like, you guys did not take yourself too seriously. And that, I think in that kind of, because it was kind of a transitional, you know, kind of, I mean, this is like hair bands into punk, isn't it? Or is it kind of punk is already hit? Well, I mean, there were so many things going on subculturally in the United States, like, in the early and mid-80s. It's hard to – I think it was one of the few times that, like, the subcultural stuff had as much traction for teenagers as the mainstream stuff. the mainstream stuff. I mean, there was, you know, there was Madonna and Prince and, you know, these like kind of huge and sometimes, you know, often kind of fantastic acts that were happening.

And there was also like the weird fact that like, you know, the Rod Stewart's would not get out of the way. I mean, this was like a very weird generational time and it was just like, you know, these entrenched rock stars are just are just going to hold on to their market share no matter what and i i definitely felt like i mean i was already you know we started the band in our early 20s like we weren't teenagers so like they're definitely you know we had grown up with a lot of these bands and it was just like why won't

they stop yeah um yeah but uh but you know there was also like just like the whole kind of you know what people started calling college rock and yeah and like alternative music and it was kind of i mean speaking of like authenticity there was it had its own peculiar authenticity just because it was like i think now people just see it as the minor leagues. But at the time, I think it was self-serious enough that it wasn't just an audition. You weren't doing these club tours across the United States for 200 people a night because you thought that will get you a record deal or get you a major label deal. It was like you were doing it because that's what you were actually doing.

Yeah. So it was just a very different time in the music culture. And the whole DIY aesthetic was, you know, it wasn't just hardcore bands, and it wasn't just They Might Be Giants. There was like a world of music that was doing this DIY stuff. And some of the bands were kind of crappy, and some of them were really inspired, and some of them got famous,

and some of them never got famous. But it was really a world unto itself. It was very separate from from madonna and prince what do you think why do you think there was i get what is lincoln like that there's so many kind of artsy weirdos you know what i mean like because i'm lincoln massachusetts yeah yeah oh um because you said you know that you found a lot of kindred spirits on oh oh that's Oh, that's true. Oh, that's true.

So that would mean like, I mean, because I don't think that you and Linnell would have found kindred spirits on the school paper in like, you know. I mean, Lincoln as a place is incredibly pastoral. It's like where the Audubon Society of Massachusetts is. So when you say Lincoln, all I'm thinking of is just like is beautiful trees. Yeah, yeah. society of Massachusetts is. So when you say like, and all I'm thinking of is just like is beautiful trees. Yeah. Yeah. And so no matter how artsy a weirdo you are,

you're, you're surrounded by like this incredible splendor. Yeah. You know, I think it's just, it was all kids. I mean, my dad was an architect. John's dad was a psychiatrist.

Like it was, it was all kind of like professional class, slightly overeducated people and their, and their problematic children. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,

we just all just rolled around in our adolescent angst. Well, I'm going to jump forward here. Cause it does make me think, I mean, it makes me think of the, you know know kind of the similar work that you've done uh writing music for kids shows you know what i mean like it's a similar sort of thing because you're still you know the work that you do and it's a commercial work it's written specifically

for a television kids television shows but it still is your aesthetic it's still not compromised really in any way it sounds like they might be giants you know well we did a we did three big projects with disney records that were you know very much they might be giants uh projects but i have to say you know, I don't think we would have dared do kids stuff before we had sort of professionally established the identity of the band. I think it would have been too confusing. In a way, I think, you know, know we really we had already been a band for something like 20 years before we did any embarked on any writing for kids yeah and uh and i i just

don't think i think we were just we're just too nervous about stuff to be misunderstood that way um and i'm really i have to say i'm really proud of the kids stuff we've done because it is very undiminished. I mean, you know, when you do a kids project, like the first thing that happens is all the people around you, like management people, but also like, you know, even the people like you're delivering to where they're like, it doesn't have to be that good. It's just for kids. And you're just thinking like, no, well, that explains why so much stuff for kids is really bad. Because there is this kind of hacky impulse that a lot of people, you know, seem to, they seem to pour as little of themselves into the project as professionally possible. And we kind of went about it the exact opposite way. We really,

professionally possible. And we kind of went about it the exact opposite way. We really, it's such a great, you know, writing for kids is such a liberating experience as a writer, because it's just like, you know, what's going to work for a kid, you know? A four-year-old. Not just a kid, but like a four and five-year-old. Yeah. It's like, you know, you've got to spark their imaginations. That is such a different It's like, you know, you've got to spark their imaginations. That is such a different assignment than writing, you know, rock music that in some ways is going to be, everything you do is going to be filtered through like the rock cultural lens. I mean, 2021, it's different.

Like people don't read record reviews anymore, but they're, you know, or watch MTV or just think about things in those terms. Like the gatekeepers have all been murdered, you know? Yeah. But, but when we started, you know, it was very, it, it seemed very controlled and, and it was, it was very liberating to just be able to write songs for kids. I mean, I think especially for me and John, just like given our temperament, you know,

it really let us, you know, get our inner boop, beep, bop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Out, you know, like just like, and also I think, cause there's like a lot of your early work too. There is, you know, it's self-reflective.

There is some irony, I think. And kids, there's not an ounce of irony. Like kids don't even understand irony. So, you know, it's like it's you guys stripping yourself of your own kind of, it's just like, exactly. It's like my daughter went to a theater camp. Theater camp, yeah.

Yeah, and up, Stage Door Manor is what it's called. And my daughter did that once. And they, in two weeks, put together. And it's the oldest kids, maybe 16. They did a complete production of Guys and Dolls. And you and your wife, Robin, came over to see it. And I, my daughter. Well, Robin went to Stage Door.

So she was, the whole time we were there, she was just having a total experience because it was the favorite thing of her childhood. Yeah, it's a Catskills. It's an old resort been converted into a deep immersion theater camp. And in fact, she only went once. She was like, it's too much. It's like going to a professional school. Yes.

I can't spend an evening watching Netflix without Robin just saying, oh yeah, I went to camp with that guy. He was a great guy. I did Once Upon a Mattress with that girl. She wasn't cool. a great guy or like, you know, yeah, she was, she was, you know, I, I did, uh, you know, uh, once upon a mattress with that girl, she was, she was, she was, she wasn't cool. You know,

it's all that, you know? And, uh, it's, it, it is, it is, it ends up being like the stars of tomorrow. I mean, it's a big deal to go there. In explaining it to my Midwestern family, like what a big deal this camp is. I said, it's like if your kid is good at basketball and you send them to Bobby Knight's summer camp. Like it's like the Bobby Knight summer camp of theater, but in, you know, not basketball. Because it is like, you just, it's like Robin said, there's just every like almost you know i'd say 80 of the notables on broadway now probably went to that fucking oh yeah yeah yeah you know yeah it's just like it was it's a factory for you know little broadway creatures but it's it's it's funny to me like as a kid who like i did very little stuff like that. Like there was nothing vocational in my childhood.

But like I have a friend who's a fantastic guitar player, but he grew up in like, not in the Upper Peninsula, but he grew up somewhere in Michigan, extremely cold where hockey is extraordinarily important. Yeah. And as like maybe even a preteen, I think his dad really wanted him to be like a professional hockey player.

And they sent him to goalie camp. Wow. Not just hockey camp, goalie camp. So, you know, goalie camp is where they basically, you know, like two hours of the day, it's just like, now pucks will be shot at your head and you have to learn how to not flinch. The very first time I met you,

you said that you had gotten a record offer. Like, somebody from some record company had said, like, if you want to make a record, we'll make a record offer like some somebody some somebody from some record company it said like if you want to make a record we'll make a record with you and i was and i this was like 1992 probably you know i had been you know like i had you know we had started they might be giants in 1982 and only got like a real deal in like 89 and i'm just thinking like who is this kid and i'll tell you too i'll tell you too i don't even remember that i don't even remember that you know but i mean i i would i i apparently had enough self-awareness to know don't you know that would be like asking it right you know like giving a fish a deal to fly you know it's like i don't think that that's good for me you know no there's been i

mean i've had yeah no it's it's it's absolutely stupid how much is given to you once you get visible and it's absolutely stupid how much like free stuff you get once you can afford to buy things you know it's just it's ridiculous well you know i i am a member of sag because i have whistled on a number of uh national television campaigns yes of course one for diet pepper uh diet dr pepper and one uh i've actually whistled multiple times wow television and and Wow. Television. And whistling can get you into SAG. Wow. So I do. But wait, why? And it's different than singing?

Like singing won't get you into SAG, will it? If it's on a national, yes. If it's on a national. Oh, if you're singing a commercial, you can get it. Yeah. Then you count as a performer. Wait, is that? Maybe I have it wrong.

No, no, no. Because I was already in the Musicians Union. I was in the Musicians Union very early in my career. In fact, back in an era before everything was online, there was a Musicians Union book it was a way to hire union musicians in New York. And every category of musician was, you know, if you're a violinist, you're in the violinist section. So it's like, you could just get called up. And on the very last page, the very last category was drum machine programming, John Flansburg.

And that was because I had done an album that had a union session on it where I was the drum machine programmer. Yeah. It showed up. That's what you were. It was so odd. Wow. Yeah. That'll be the first line of your obituary.

Right. Noted drum machine programmer. Drum machine programmer, John Flansburg. Actually, one of the weird things about the Grammys, they tell you, like, when they're sort of, you know, in the weird pre-ceremony, the head of the RAA stands up and says, like, just so you know, in every everyone here, the first line in your obituary will be that you were nominated for a Grammy. And it was such it's such a weird more,

you know, you're he's only speaking to a room full of nominated people. And it's like, I mean, they might as well have like wheeled out the Crypt Keeper. It's a big announcement. Yeah, it's true. It's true. Right. It's true. It's true, but maybe that shouldn't define you. Speaking of music, when did you know it was music for you? I mean, because you kind of were a late bloomer musically, right? Well, I'm still

really waiting to bloom. Listen, your buds have fallen off the vine a long time ago. You bloomed and bloomed and bloomed. You know, I love music. I love a lot of music that has nothing to do with me. I'm like a music lover.

Music really just invades my consciousness all the time. Like, since COVID, I've actually started DJing, like, a radio show on the local community radio. Oh, shit, really? Oh, that's great. It's a total blast. Like, I have to track new music releases and all this stuff. Is it streamable, or is it something you've got to be driving in your car? It's posted on Mixcloud, which is like, I don't know how they evade the copyright rules.

Right, right. But the program's called Low Stakes with John F. Nice. I don't even use my last name because I don't really feel like it's important that people know anything. It's really hard to say, too. Yeah. I feel like it's important that people know anything about it. It's really hard to say, too. Yeah.

So, yeah, you know, I was – I really enjoyed, like, the kind of the punk rock amnesty day thing of, like, 1977, 78. Like, up until then, so much about being a musician was kind of technical. then so much about being a musician was kind of technical and you'd like it. Like, I just didn't, I just felt like if you're 17, 16, 17 years old and you haven't started playing for real,

like how are you ever going to catch up? Yeah. And then there was just this moment where it was like, you know, it was just a total free for all. It's like, don't know how to play. Not a problem. Yeah.

You know, start a band and, you know, write some songs. And I'd always just, I'd always been fixated on music, but I just never felt like, I mean, I've said this before in interviews. It would be like, it would be like saying that you had superpowers, you know, like you just like being a musician was like um just the act of declaring that you're a musician seemed like uh beyond me so yeah i i have said before that you know like coming from where i came from and in high school if i had said i wanted to be an actor that it would be similar to saying, I want to be an astronaut. Right.

Or I want to be Miss America. You know what I mean? It's just like, that's not going to happen. Like, why are you even entertaining such a foolish, and also, you know, too big for your britches kind of, you know, the Midwestern thing. I mean, I have to give credit. A friend of mine, this guy, Brad Smith,

he had like a Beatles tribute band. They only did Beatles songs from like 1964 to 65. They were called the Nays when I was in high school. And their big performance was being in the town, in the Lincoln town. They had a float on the 4th of July town parade where they played their Beatles songs. And it was this big, showy, but town-y kind of thing.

Yeah. And Brad gave me a very, very crummy Japanese Telecaster copy. And he just was like, you should have this. Just have it around. You'll never be bored. Maybe you'll learn how to play. And I never would have bought a guitar. And he just gave me this thing, and it totally was great.

And then I worked in a parking lot in Washington. I went to George Washington for one extremely unsuccessful semester in Washington, D.C. What did you go there for? I got one credit. Training for a life of crime. I mean, it was such a weird. I don't know. I was so lost lost what did you think did you think like or was it just kind of that 18 17 18 year old i don't know shit i'll go

there you know yeah i mean my my my brains were just doing like the you know a mad scramble yeah um you know i i but i but i had this nighttime job in a parking lot like i was literally the guy in the little booth in the little booth and and it was a it was mostly people parking their cars for the day and so i was just literally like waving goodbye to people for three hours like i didn't have to like mike ermantr Ehrmantraut. Like Mike Ehrmantraut in Better Call Saul. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was, and that's where I really learned how to play.

And, you know, I wrote songs, and it was just like this weird, I was literally in a box trying to, you know, work my way out. And was the booth big enough to really, where you could, like, turn around? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, no, there could be two people in the booth. Oh, I see. There was the booth big enough to really, where you could like turn around with the guitar? Oh, okay. Oh no, there could be two people in the booth. Oh, I see. I was picturing just like a little one where you were kind of having to play it up straight up like old timey Beatles, you know, how they, you know, like putting the neck right by your face as you play, you know? No, no, there was actually a guy, the guy who worked, the guy who worked before me had been kicked out by his wife and was living on the lot in his Cadillac.

Oh, wow. So he would leave. We'd talk. We'd just kind of shoot the shit for a while. Yeah, overlapping shift. And then he would just like walk out of the box and go into his car oh what sleep it was that's a very that's that's a good thing for a college freshman to be around consistently it really gives you a good really a good like

view of what's to come he talked about the football talked about some football team in such a first-person singular way. I thought he was on the team. It took me a couple of months to figure out that. We've got a good defensive line this year. This slightly alcoholic 45-year-old was not a professional football player. Well, Pat Nozzle did a movie where he was a sports fan and worked in a parking thingy. Like, I can't remember what the name, it's like called The Fan or something. But it sounds very similar, like a guy just obsessed with sports, working in a little kiosk.

Yeah. I don't know why his wife left him. I can't figure it out. So were you using books or were you just noodling and figuring it out? I took three of the strings off. So it was just the top three strings. And I kind of had an idea what triads were. So which is like, you know, sort of like the chords of songs. So I figured out like, you know, minor chords and major chords. And I heard an interview with Joey Ramone

where he was talking about how they would just get songbooks, like some book of Beach Boys songs or something, and they would just copy the sequence. They wouldn't even know what the songbooks, like some book of Beach Boys songs or something, and they would just copy the sequence. They wouldn't even know what the song was, but they would just copy the chord sequence out of it and write original songs with that chord sequence. Uh-huh. And because they weren't really good enough to play other people's songs.

Yeah. So they just made up. I mean, that was really the impetus behind the band, was just to know get into it more so like right it was easier to write your own songs and i think i kind of started writing songs as a way to play the guitar like i just it was too hard playing other people's songs i mean it's way too hard to play yeah yeah yeah but it was really easy to write my own songs yeah so that's kind of how i got into it now uh when do you start to take yourself seriously i mean because it you know it's still waiting no you know i mean obviously you felt you felt brave enough to to go to lanelle who had been playing forever i think right yeah i? Yeah, I mean, John is like-

And say, hey, let's do music together, you know? Yeah, I mean, I'm really grateful that we kind of found each other because I think, I mean, when you're in a duo, there is this kind of like mutt and Jeff aspect where everybody tries to pretend that you're like the opposite of one another. And that's not really the case with me and John.

I think we actually have a lot of like, there's a huge overlap in the Venn diagram of like what we're interested in and how we want to approach what we're doing. And it makes things very easy, especially like in terms of like the professional ambitions for the band. But, you know, I, I mean, I have to say like, in some ways, I think, I mean, I'll just speak for myself now. I feel like I'm very, very snobby and culturally snobby.

And a lot of the time, I'm just trying to hide that. A lot of the time I'm just trying to hide that because, like, I just, you know, I mean, it's great not being a teenager anymore because, like, when you're a teenager, you feel like you're in the culture wars and you just, the way you reject things and the way, the things that you like kind of define you and the things you reject kind of define you. And that's more of your, like, you know, when you're an adult, it's like you can just like put on that abba record i love abba yeah like you know i remember like you know liking abba as a teenager and other people just you know they're like just think you're on the wrong side of an important culture war um uh you know when we started the band we were we i think we were pretty sure we weren't going anywhere and it it it took a while there was this thing there was this phenomenon in and it's not really that well documented except in the middle of uh the film legal eagles uh we kind of came out of the performance art scene of the east village yeah which was this very you know it only lasted like

three or four years in the very in the mid 80s like 83 to 87 i guess were the glory years of it and there were a half dozen to a dozen clubs in the East Village that only wanted new music. Yeah. Which is so different than most of the time. Most of the time, club owners are like, we're going to have a cover band in here, and they're just going to play the hits. Moody Blues! Yeah, yeah, exactly. And this was this wild time in the East Village where there was this club, the Pyramid Club, which was this fantastic. We played there every three weeks for three years.

Yeah. And, I mean, what is that Malcolm Gladwell, you know? 10,000 hours. Yeah, I mean, we got in like 5,000 of those in private, you know, like we did, we were really off the radar. And then the weird thing was that the East Village scene kind of blew up over the, you know, when we first started, it would just be like, you know, a couple dozen people at the show. And then because we'd kind of grown up in this scene, there were hundreds of people. kind of grown up in this scene, there were hundreds of people. And the East Village scene, which was, you know, performance artists and doing very transgressive stuff on stage and, you know, rock bands doing very extreme stuff.

I mean, we did builds with the Butthole Surfers. We played many shows with hardcore bands. I mean, we never played with Sonic Youth, but we played with a band called Swans, which was very much in that same mode. And then just other very original acts. And the whole focus of the East Village scene was on originality, which is just such a blessing and and you know at the time at the time it seemed like well yeah like what else is there to do why

shouldn't it be original and this was at the very nadir of new york city as a like when i moved to new york city it seemed very obvious that new york city was just going to get worse and worse and worse like it had already lived past the ford apache it was in the ford apache moment yeah and you know like the subways were just completely covered in graffiti and you know um everybody had it was when uh gates gates were come everyone was gating their windows and plexiglass. Like, you know, you'd walk into a taxi, and the taxi was complete. You were completely plexiglassed off from the taxi driver. And it didn't seem like that was ever going to change.

So it was like this very dystopian place to be. And that was really – but, you know, I think we really kind of thrived in that environment like it was really magnificent and exciting and and then when it turned into a scene it just got even more exciting yeah it's hard to it's hard to describe like but you know being in a scene is is really fun. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you feel like, well, yeah, I mean, you feel like, I mean, for me, it's like coming up to Chicago. Your Brady Bunch experience must have felt like that. It did. Like, you were just, like, I feel like I witnessed

that coming to New York City and being this super vibey thing with a lot of talented people. And obviously, the cast of that show has just gone everywhere. Yeah. And it's similar, too, to people that I did improv with in the basements of Italian restaurants now being kind of household names. There was a bunch of us in Chicago trying to do improv comedy,

just kind of cause, I mean, there's only a few people that were like, I'm going to get on SNL. Most people were just like, I don't know, this is fun. And I like hanging out and these people are fun. And, you know, I mean, for me, like I liked not doing the shows as much as doing the shows, you know, I mean, it was just the I liked not doing the shows as much as doing the shows. You know, I mean, it was just the hanging out of people. And in Chicago, shows get canceled all the time because like the boilers out, it's cold out. You know, the boiler goes out. So we'd show up and the show would be canceled and I'd be like, OK, great.

But we still get to go somewhere and hang out and be funny together. And and yeah. And then to have that just kind of that continuation and have all of those people like, you know, some of them writing for Colbert and others, you know, directing movies and just all the, you know, founding theater groups. It just, it is pretty neat. It makes you feel like, okay, yeah, I've done something, you know, like, like, you know, like, yeah, this all did matter in some way. And you're in like, and you're in a community. I mean, it's done something, you know, like, like, you know, like, yeah, this all did matter in some way. And you're in like, and you're in a community. I mean, it's not like, you know,

believe me, like the East Village performance art scene was not like a world of love. Like there was, yeah, there was a lot, there was a lot of, a lot of very crazy characters coming through there, but there was also just, I don't know, it was, it was a time. And, uh, I'm, I'm really glad that, you know, so many, I feel like so many people's careers, it, I mean, having any kind of showbiz career is like being shot out of a cannon to nothing. There's not a lot of things that necessarily prepare you for it. Um, I'm kind of grateful that so much of what, what we had to go through was kind of incremental.

Like we really had, I mean, very early on there. I mean, we only had like one manager for most of our, I mean, our manager retired, Jamie,

our manager. Oh, really? Oh, wow. He retired like last year because he's, you know, he's retirement age.

Yeah. You know, it's just very odd. He was a grownup and then he became, you know, like's retirement age, you know, uh, it's just very odd. He was a grown up and then he became, you know, like really became a grown up. Yeah, exactly. But, um, uh, but you know, I mean, but it was great. I mean, we, we, we went, started with him and, and, uh, you know, went the whole way with him. But I remember his, his father, Jamie's father wrote for Newsday. He was a TV critic on Newsday. Yep.

And so he had an in with the Joe Franklin show. So we got booked on the Joe Franklin show. Oh, wow. For no particular reason. Wow. But I think the idea was, and this is such a crazy idea, was that it'd be good practice for real TV. Right, right. And it was not really good practice at all.

It was much better practice for being with- Elderly people. Elderly people. Yeah, visiting someone in an assisted living facility. Yeah. And there was this crazy thing about being on the Joe Franklin show, which was magnificent, which was, you know, there was the Joe Franklin set on one side of the room and the romper room

set on the other. Wow. So they would flip the cameras around. Oh, the whole time you're on the Joe Franklin show, you're just staring at like this giant, don't be, don't be,

you know, do be, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like paper mache props for. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. It was nuts. When I first in Illinois, in, uh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like paper mache props for little kids. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. It was nuts. When I first, in Illinois, in becoming, you know, like, first of all, also to that era of music, being interested. I was from Yorkville, Illinois, population, I don't know, like 7,500, I think, when I was there. Maybe. I don't remember exactly.

But is that southern Illinois? it's directly west of chicago oh okay direct straight west of chicago and um but you know finding new music you know i started to listen you know when i started listening to music it was abba it was elo it you know and then like tom petty and the heartbreakers and i don't remember the first kind of breakthrough of new wave music or punk music. But I remember reading, you know, just reading articles about albums and going and buying the album, you know, unheard. Because of the name? Because, yeah, because of some, you know. And I heard about you guys and your phone line, your song a day phone.

Right. That was the first way you pierced my imagination. And I used to call, I used to, you know, my mother would be like, what's this Brooklyn number? These guys that makes a song a day, you know? Well, I mean, I have to say like like, the dial-a-song thing, I mean, it's funny because I think to sum up the way it has kind of gone down in the biography of They Might Be Giants is that dial-a-song was kind of our gambit

to get noticed by the music industry. Yeah. And that's often how it's described. But the weird thing is, in a way, it was, I think for us, it was sort of like conceding that we would never, ever be heard otherwise. You know? Yeah.

It was just like, it was definitely like a Hail Mary play. And for people who don't know, what this is, is that you would change. You'd have an original song on an outgoing machine, you know, because it's nothing digital. It was a answering machine. It was a record-a-call answering machine, and it was just cassettes. And we would record these songs and make different cassettes. And a little bit of it was like a sleight of hand because we would change it every day,

but we only had like 30 songs, which is not an insignificant number of songs. Right. We would be, you know, and we'd be constantly kind of updating it and feeding it. But the coolest thing about the whole Dial Song project was that it introduced us to people who weren't necessarily... There's so few ways that people are exposed to new music. It was nice to be able to just skip over all of them, leapfrog over everything in the music culture. It's like,

no Rolling Stone magazine needed. We've got this machine. And we can just find in a way it's it's much more like the the sort of the gift economy of the internet as an idea before the internet existed like just like we're gonna share what we got because yeah we want we just want to be in the world and um and it was such a weird experience like hearing this disembodied voice sing. We had to mix the songs with the vocals really loud for any lyric to be understood. So they're very weird-sounding recordings. There's something very haunted about Tyler's song

as an experience. And the machine was in a suitcase. It was in my mom's suitcase that my mom gave me that she had as a little girl. So it was like this little kid's suitcase. Because it made a really loud sound when it turned on. And a ton of people would call in the middle of the night. So it was in a suitcase just to muffle it? Yeah, just to muffle it.

Yeah, yeah. And so i could put a lid on it but um the you know um i would sometimes listen to like the messages and this this really weird thing happened uh over time which is that the number got passed around um by uh young women who were clearly like in bars getting hit on by guys and to make them go away, they would give them our phone number as if it was their phone number. So, so, so,

you know, the message would be like from some semi drunk dude. Yeah. Who's just like, it's like Linda Linda, weird message. Got to say, because also, we didn't have any identifying information. We didn't say it was they might, for years, we didn't say it was, it was just a song. That was all it was.

So these guys would call up and be like, i met you last night and uh you seem really nice uh you want to call me back you know and yeah yeah i mean this happened all the time it was yeah super super sad that's great it was like a glimpse into single life what i like about it and i and i don't think it's intentional but i mean but it is like i like that it is a a really bold statement about just creation about like oh yeah we can write a song a day like you know like writing a song that's it's not like there's you need some keys to some secret kingdom you just write a song you know and that's i've i've always loved that attitude because it's it's pretty ballsy uh and especially you know how precious people can be about creation when it's like, you know, because I've had like just little bits that I did.

People have lifted and used in different places, not, you know, for a long time, but like early on, especially, you know, there'd be like little bits that we do in improv shows, which are not supposed to be repeatable. And then somebody would take it and do something with it. And my feeling was always people would be outraged on my behalf or tell me I saw that guy doing that thing. And I was always like, well, I can make more. Like, you know, okay, you can have that. That's fine. You know, there's more to be made. And I just love that kind of attitude about creation is not magic. It's just, you know, if you have a facility to do it, you just do it. You know, I mean, that's, that's very kind of you to say. And I feel like it is inspiring in that to people in that way.

It kind of like loosens things up. And a lot of times, like, you know, we'll do, you know, at some point you do some kind of Q and a for somebody and somebody will be like, I'm a young songwriter and I just don't want people to steal my songs. And I'm always, I'm always thinking like, nobody's going to steal your song. Like, don't, don't, you know, like just, just get, just do your songs. Like just get it out there. And that, I mean, that's actually changed a lot in modern culture. Like people, I mean, because the nature of communications has just evolved so much but people were always just so nervous about something i mean i have to say like you

know john did a demo for birdhouse in your soul that was on dial song for two years before we recorded the album and it's not that it's not that different i mean yeah you know it's it's like anybody could have you know lifted lifted it but you know nobody deemed it that important right well i i have kept you uh far too long here but i i definitely want to talk about your new project uh like yeah this is where we get to be like a a real talk show sure um and it's called book and it's a book and you were nice enough to send me a copy it's a loaner copy because there's only a few there's there's there's five in the united states there's 10 000 of them on a boat between china and here wait waiting to go through like

fingers crossed for no tsunamis or anything yeah um but i mean i can see why now it's such a limit because it is a big amazing art book it is not what i expected i kind of expected it to be you know not necessarily like a career retrospective of they might be giants but i felt like it was going to be something about like here is is They Might Be Giants as a band in a very kind of, oh, I don't know, you know, just like in a very literal kind of way. But it is just a collection of words and images. And, you know, I haven't had, I kind of, I haven't had enough, but it's like something I want to sit down with that thing for a couple of hours, you know, and it's intended to be listened to as well as read. So I'm explaining

it. I'm, you know, my bad version of explaining it now do a good version. I love, I love art books and I love art photography and I love, I have a bunch of like books of street photography by famous street photographers. It's my favorite kind of photography. Yeah, it's a really interesting world. And we did get approached by a publisher to do a coffee table book that would be like your classic retrospective of the band. And I think one of the things that John and I have talked about a lot is like we'd rather rather even though it's like

you know licensing a song to somebody is kind of an opportunity what we like to do is like right you know if somebody's making a movie or a tv show or something we'd rather write a new song than license something you know it's like just keep keep the ball rolling like i get you you know that like the way you're in it i mean this whole band has been like a manic episode for me. And one of the reasons it's just been easy to kind of keep it going is because there are so many interesting creative challenges and doing this book was, um, trying to figure out how to do something that would hold together as an experience. It really is. It actually involved a lot of restraint. We worked with this great graphic designer named Paul Sayre, who's actually, in the world of graphic design, he's much more famous than

they might be giants is in the world of music. He's a heavyweight guy, but he's sort of blessed us with his talent. And we've done a lot of collaborations with him over the last 10 years. And it's been amazing. And he was all in on this idea of doing a book. But it was very clear from the jump that it was going to be rigorous. And he did all the lyrics in the book that are all designed in very... Each one has kind of got its own approach, but he did it on an IBM Selectric typewriter. He did all those lyrics.

They're kind of like concrete poetry, I guess, is the term that people use. They're kind of making shapes and distorted in various ways. But all the distortions are done by hand. So he literally spent a month or more just, it's almost like he's Jack Nicholson in The Shining. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It reminds you of like all work and no play.

Yeah, exactly. But in different visual patterns, creating visual patterns and visual art using a typewriter, a selector. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that was, you know, that was that gambit. And then we collaborated with this young guy, a Pratt graduate named Brian Carlson, who does street photography in Brooklyn. And he just had this amazing set of photographs that, because it's street photography and it's very outward looking there's something kind of um unlimited about it and it really complements the the lyrics that that john and i put together i think like it's just

like um i mean you know it's it's just it's it's different it is definitely like a kind of a psychedelic experience it is like a book of of art. And it's kind of sticking by those rules of art portfolios. But I think it's a really interesting project. And it was really challenging to put it together. But I'm really proud of it. And I think when people see it they'll be they'll be excited to see something so different a lot of times like rock books are just such a mess you know like I mean I you know as somebody who like has a lot of ephemera of different eras there are a lot of like lyric books that are just like they're just garbage graphically and I feel like I feel like we figured something out that a lot of people do not crack. Well, it just is something that stands on its own in terms of like if I had – you have no idea, no way of knowing that this is a They Might Be Giants project, which I think is cool. You know, I think it's, you know, it was a surprise.

And there was a part of me that was kind of like wanting to see, you know, I wanted to see you guys. Oh, I see. You know, like I wanted to see, take a walk down memory lane with you guys. Well, we could do that too. Yeah, yeah. We could do that too. I mean, eventually. Yeah, right.

I love seeing pictures of me when I was thinner. But, which by the way, I do want to run down at some point all the different, like, because you and I, well, I'll get to that later. But I want to know, I want to say, is it, are you, because there's a CD included and there's downloadable music. There's and there's downloadable music. Is it meant to be sat and listened to and in any kind of order, or is it just, you know, make it up as you know, you know,

instructions, just figure out how you want, how are you going to enjoy this piece? Yeah, there's no, there's no instructions. So I think, you know,

I think if you kind of had the music at hand, I mean, even if you just were listening to it on a streaming site and just let the music wash over you as you just experienced it experience it it would be it would be cool um you know it's an experiment you know it's it's it's it was it we went into the project not knowing what would come out the other side and um uh i think it's uh but i think it's i think you know i think it works i think it'll be you know I think, you know, I think it works. I think it'll be, you know, some people, you know, and it is kind of an art object. I mean, just speaking of things kind of being precious, like it is, I mean, just speaking for myself, it's not very often in 2021 that I open up a book and think about the aesthetics of the book.

I mean, it's really interesting to make something that is very much about a physical experience. So much of our lives are just screens and electronic things. And that's like, we're collaborating with Paul, Sarah, a lot of those concerns like those are very real concerns you know if you're a graphic designer if you're an illustrator if you're a photographer those things are very real concerns because that's how it's seen and that's that's how people take it in um but uh yeah i mean it's uh it's it's it's really unusual. And I'm really proud of it.

It is. And like I say, I was happy to be so surprised by what it was. And I also think it's great that you can enjoy it. Yeah, put on the music and look at it. Or just look at it. Or just look at the pictures or actually too, because of the work that he's done with that, you know, very unique kind of graphic presentation of lyrics and words. You don't even have to read a word.

You just look at the words as if they're like some sort of, you know, pixelation of a pattern, you know? So it's really, really cool. And I, I want to spend more time with

it i know it's a lending library it's got to go to to others like me yeah that's at some point you know fresh fresh air is going to need that comp well i'm gonna but i'm definitely going to take today i'm gonna uh because like i say i gave it like two kind of like i'll take a peek at this and then i was like what the first time i was like wow this is really different but i want to sit down and take some time with it and really look at it um but yeah it's cool again yeah you know what what i what i was referencing before is that like just in talking to you and i and also i just sent you a text of something um i was just home in illinois like there's just you guys they might be giants and you in particular like just the fact that we know each other and have spent as much time together as we have it's just it's

just some kind of feels like kismet because it was just you know like i say i was calling the the dial-a-song line you know i mean like on a regular basis i was calling and listening to that i didn't know i was gonna you know right right, be on the Conan O'Brien show or whatever. And then I don't remember. My ex-wife got to know your wife somehow. I don't remember exactly how. when my ex-wife and I first, very first started dating, we saw you guys do a live show at Rhino Records on Westwood Boulevard in Los Angeles. Oh, wow.

When we were in Los Angeles doing the Real Live Brady Bunch, and we went there together, and it was kind of, like I said, it was early in the relationship, and I won a coffee mug, the one that was gas pumps. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that. Yeah, yeah. It was a series of gas pumps.

And on the face of the gas pumps, they might be giants. And I was so excited to have won that coffee mug and got up. And you handed it to me. And then Kate Flannery, who ended up playing Meredith on The Office, took it to the – my ex-wife gave her a ride to the airport, and she took it to the airport with her and took it. Kate Flannery. Wow. I mean, she's still a dear friend, but, you know. But there's another name drop at the end of the story.

Yeah, yeah. That's wild. When we met you – I met you guys, and we, I think it was the first night I met Robin. You guys were doing a show, maybe Mercury Lounge. I'm not exactly sure. Sure. But she was in the booth doing the lights cause the light guide stepped away and I had,

and she was doing the lights and, uh, and I was standing with her and she, and Sarah wanted to talk to her something. was standing with her and she and sarah wanted to talk to her something and i said because i sat in a booth for a lot of shows at the annoyance theater and elsewhere watching the like i do things and sometimes i would do the simple things and i was like i know what i'm doing you go ahead and she stepped away to talk to sarah and i was like the lights weren't changing that much but i like i thought i thought like you know how like they're set in like an a b i don't know how you do it and you just kind of fade from one to the other but there was no b set up so i think i just turned the lights completely off on stage on you guys in the middle of a song and you

all were like what the fuck is going on and robin just came over and stepped in front of me i was like get the fuck out of here that really defines small time rock and roll it sure does i mean the whole club life thing i've done lights for many other bands yeah you know i've done sound like like i i've done i we did a show with de la soul and um you know uh and they didn't have a sound man and the the how the how the, the, the guy from the PA company was like, I'm not mixing a rap act, you know? And it was just like, it was just like,

what? You know? And it was like, okay, man, like, you know, geez.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I ended up mixing their show and it was, it was, it was really fun. Like, cause they,

I mean, they actually did the whole – I mean, there wasn't much – there's only like four inputs. Yeah, yeah. But part of their show was like, everybody on the left, left, everybody on the right. And it's like, there's a panning knob. I know how to pan it to the left.

Speaking of the A, B thing, I panned all the voices to the left, all the voices to the right, and the whole crowd lit up. That's awesome. I mean, one of the funny, weird things about doing lights, even in the smallest venue, is you realize that people follow. You'll see all the heads of the audience turn. If you turn the lights off on one side of the stage

and turn them on the other, everybody's heads will turn. Yeah. Which is like, all of a sudden it really it really uh burnishes the idea that like the audiences are just you know follow you know they're just they're so easily led yeah waiting to be led yeah yeah no that's that's the case that's i think i think that's part of what's nice about being in an audience is you surrender yourself to like, okay, yeah, whatever. It's like multi-camera sitcoms out here.

It's always amazing to me that because the deal is you're going to come here and you're going to sit and watch what ends up being a 22-minute show, but it might take four hours. And you're going to see multiple takes and you're going to see stops and starts. So please laugh as much the fifth time as you do the first time. And the audiences go, okay, they just want to help. They just want to help. They're like, we get it. You guys worked hard. We're happy to be here.

We want jokes. So if you tell a joke, we'll laugh at it. You know, and so it's, you know, even the real laughs you're hearing on television are kind of canned in some way. That's fascinating. Yeah. I've never had that experience. It's weird. It's definitely a very.

So they ask people to, like, amp it up. Yes. Oh, absolutely. They're prompted. Absolutely. That's interesting. Oh, absolutely. They're prompted. Absolutely. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. There's a painter, I think his name is Robert Kondo, who does these big word paintings in

kind of like naturalistic, hyper-naturalistic settings. And one of the slogans in one of his paintings is, all that fake laughter for nothing. Yeah, yeah. And I've always thought that would be a good name for a memoir. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, that would be a perfect one for mine. Not that I'm in the business of fake laughing, but I feel like there are worlds of people who have, I mean, especially the television thing. A friend of mine was on the Seinfeld show years ago, and there was no audience at all in the

scenes that he did. And he said that the weirdest thing was that they leaned in on the laugh track so hard on the show that when he saw it actually broadcast, he was like, this is almost willfully bending the rules of how much unbridled laughter can be added to something that had no laughter at all. Yes, exactly. Like, the laugh track on the Seinfeld show is just like people wetting their pants. Mm-hmm. And that's not how they made it. No. They just gave into it. The laugh track on the Sunfield show is just like people wetting their pants.

And that's not how they made it. No. They just gave into it. In a sitcom, too, when you tape a – because they'll pre-tape scenes. Now, especially to just save time, they'll pre-tape some scenes that might have a complicated costume change or something. And they'll pre-tape them on a on an audience less day but people standing around writers and so forth will laugh will make time placeholders you know like for the laughter so the person that's written that joke and has heard it 25 times when you say it in that audience-less pre-tape,

we'll go, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh, they just slug in their own fake laughter. Yeah, because they know the audience would have laughed here. The obliging audience would have laughed here. So I'm going to put that in there. And they say, to give the actors the timing, which I just, my feeling is always like, let me handle the timing. is the timing, which I just, I'm not feeling as always like, let me handle the timing.

I mean, I guess having somebody actually laugh is better than having the director say, and hold for fake laughter. Yeah, exactly. Hold it, hold it. Alright, well, I have kept you far too long.

Oh, but it's been a delight, Andy, as always. It sure has. I haven't seen you in ages. I know. And I miss you and Robin. Not since Guys and Dolls. Yeah, I know. It has been that long. I still have, after that show, I put Guys and Dolls on my phone, and it comes up on random sometimes, and my daughter's like, ugh.

Again, with that Alan Alda's dad singing about the shops and the mops. It's such a powerful show, though. It's a great show. I loved it. Yeah. But anyhow, what's, I mean, I think that the what's coming next for you is pretty much the book and more music, correct? I mean. I hope so.

Yeah. I mean, we're actually sort of embarking on the next album before like we this this this whole interval has been so confounding. Hopefully next March, we'll be back out on the road to do the 40 or so sold out shows that we booked in 2019. sold out shows that we booked in 2019. Yeah. So, you know, we're just in this sort of permanent catch up mode now, but it'll,

it'll be, it'll be great. I mean, once, once people can assemble without fear again. Yeah. I think it will be really something amazing. Yeah.

Well, what do you think? I mean, I'm sure that you get like, yeah. I think it will be really something amazing. Yeah. Well, what do you think? I mean, I'm sure that you get, like, people saying, you know, I want to do something creative. I want to be in music. I want to, you know, I look up to you. Do you have advice for people that you kind of have, you know, distilled now? I mean, I mean, what do you hope people, what do you hope people take away from what you do?

I mean, those is kind of the same question. Oh, that's, but those seem like very different questions. I mean, like, you know,

sometimes parents will, you know, come to me very concerned that their kid wants to be in music. And I'll, I'll just be like, you know, save them. No, don't turn around. Don't do it. But, you'll just be like, you know, save them.

No, don't turn around. Don't do it. But, you know, I think, you know, like I went to art school and I had a profoundly positive experience in art school and learned a lot of things there that were completely transferable to being in They Might Be Giants. The thing you were saying about like the dial song thing of just not being precious about just putting things into the world and also just doing a lot of work, that was really key to my time at Pratt. And so a lot of times I'll just say, if you're into writing songs, like if you write five songs instead of two songs,

like the chances of one of them being really good is exponentially higher. Like just do more stuff. But, you know, I feel like such a dinosaur in terms of like the social stuff because, you know, I'm still, you know, I haven't caught up to'm still you know i haven't caught up to you know i haven't caught up to snapchat and now there's tiktok and all that i mean like there's worlds of uh cultural interaction that you know i'm just the blind man holding the elephant's tail like i have no idea what it really means or how it really works and yeah i mean do you do tiktok i do not do tiktok but i ended up getting tiktok because my kids would send me tiktoks

and then it was like it tiktok is set up so that you kind of have to have the app in order to watch things in a in a better way like a less clunky way so i got it just for that. But then, but I definitely, so, I mean, I'm kind of like. Are you now following a half dozen dogs of TikTok? No, I don't do it. I mean, I look at, first of all, I'm mainly just Twitter, Instagram a little bit, and I'll see TikToks on Instagram. a little bit and I'll see TikToks on Instagram and I follow because of my kids' suggestion and what, you know, looking at their feeds, some of these kind of mean aggregate accounts where they just, you know, they're like a catch-all, somebody that just posts shit all day. And there's some of them that are very specific references that I have no idea what they're talking about. But, you know, and I'll ask my kids and they'll be like, oh, yeah, that was like this meme

from this influencer who got arrested for public indecency. Like, oh, OK. All right. You know, OK, thanks. You know, but I mean, it is hopeless. It's and you have to remember, too, and I remember this a lot. It's not meant for me. I'm old.

This is like when you and me looking at TikTok is like you and me going to a 16-year-old's birthday party. Right. You know, where kids are first taking their first sips of beer or whatever. Right. It's like, what are those creepy old men doing here? Get out of here. Sure, I'll buy you the beer, kid. Yeah, come on.

No, Preston. You got gotta learn somehow um but i don't so but i mean i do feel at least i do have i do like keeping my toe in the in the sort of mainstream just to kind of even things i don't understand. I just have an awareness of them. And it's also been very helpful, I think, to me as the evolving, whether people call it cancel culture or whether they call it the, you know, the Me Too movement or whatever, the evolving way that it's appropriate to speak in public and the evolving way that like, that what is no longer acceptable because I see so many, and it's mostly men, it's occasionally like a woman of, you know, my age or a little bit older or younger, not understanding,

you don't say that anymore. Like, that's not, like, that's kind of, that was always kind of creepy, but now it's officially, yeah, that's creepy. You shouldn't say that. Or that word is hurtful. Don't use that word, you know? I mean, and not even like the big ones, just some of the smaller ones. And, you know, it's great culturally that this, you know, there is this infusion of new ideas. Like, it's not bad.

I mean, I think, like, you know, just it's amazing to witness, to think that George W. Bush ran against gay marriage. Yeah. You know, that was, like, one of the main platforms of his campaign. And that Barack Obama couldn't say, yeah, I'm for gay marriage. He had to qualify it, you know? Right, right, right. Oh, I think Biden, in fact, actually came out pro-gay marriage before Obama. He did.

He did. And it was considered bad form at the time. Yeah. Right, right. So, and now, you know, we see this incredible acceleration with, like, you know, trans rights and just acknowledging that that, I mean, obviously, it's a contentious thing in certain places. I guess there was some crazy riot in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, outside of a Korean spa. Like, why in LA, of all places, I would just think, like, aren't you all just a bunch of liberals? No, no. Because there's, you know, here in, I live in Burbank, and there's kind of like a Western-themed bar that's really, that is also too like a Chicago Bears bar for some reason.

That is also too like a Chicago Bears bar for some reason that got into huge trouble because they wouldn't do the mask mandates. And they ended up getting shut out of their own business and their business being covered in cyclone fencing. And padlocks put on their own business because they made a huge stink about it. And it became like a flashpoint for protests but it's all the same people it's all like the people that are protesting the mask mandates are also going to to down to a korean spa on on wilshire and vermont and protesting trans stuff like they're all it's all the same yeah the same basket of kooks that are just kind of – that have a lot of time on their hands to go, you know, like, one day it's vaccines, the next day it's masks, the next day it's, you know, Trump won. You know, it's such a, the,

the, the kind of social interactions on, you know, I really, I'm only on Twitter tracking Twitter stuff, but even there, it's like, you can't complain that anybody's too in your face on Twitter.

Like there's no, nobody's, nobody's going to get punched in the nose on Twitter. And so it's kind of the perfect back and forth to get ideas like, you know, trans rights into the world. Because that's something that's been really like just not addressed for so long and and it's fascinating to just see what like how much uh of an accelerant social media can be on like moving those issues forward obviously there's gonna be crazy pushback from crazy people right i think ultimately you know very much like gay marriage and and gay rights rights and all these other things that just seem obvious to people who are thinking about it. Yeah.

You know, it's just, it's just, it's just, there is, there is hope, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I think so too. I mean, just like, you know, the notion that just on healthcare that like now, you know, it's like it seems like most people in the country now favor what was used to be called socialized medicine. Oh, yeah. a largely popular i mean there there's so many things that are just like popular opinion that we can't have because of the weird apartheid government that we have you know uh the minority rule that is there but that's you know that's one of them i didn't realize we were on a communist

podcast you sure are well i look i uh thank you so much for taking time. And I love you. And I love Robin. And tell her I said hi. And good luck with the book. Everybody go check out this book. Yeah, it's really. The book is called Book.

Yeah. And it's coming to a seller near you. Yeah. The next one is all that fake laughter for nothing. All right, John Flansburg. Thank you so much for being on the show and thank all of you for listening. And we will be back next week with more three,

well, three more questions, not more, I guess more three questions and three more questions. The three questions with Andy Richter is a team Coco and your wolf production. It is produced by Lane Gerbig, engineered by Marina Pice, and talent produced by Galitza Hayek. The associate producer is Jen Samples, supervising producer Aaron Blair,

and executive producers Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Make sure to rate and review The Three Questions that Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.