The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Ken Jennings

Episode Date: November 5, 2019

Author and Jeopardy legend Ken Jennings joins Andy Richter to talk about growing up in Seoul, how his Mormon upbringing has shaped his life, and the behind-the-scenes story of his famed Jeopardy run. Plus, Ken discusses how he’s made a career out of his game show success and the importance of creating one’s own niche.This episode is sponsored by Betterhelp (www.betterhelp.com/threequestions code: THREEQUESTIONS), Dashlane, and HelloFresh (www.hellofresh.com/THREEQUESTIONS9 code: THREEQUESTIONS9).

Hello world, it's Andy Richter. This is the three questions with Andy Richter. I say my name again because I like to hear it. I'm here today with a name I like to say, Ken Jennings, who is, we're sort of friends, don't you think, by now? I like to say we're friends because you're more famous than me. I don't know if you say it. I like to say we're friends because I like you. Oh. And because we have actually spent some FaceTime together. We went to dinner in Portland.

We did. We did at the restaurant Pok Pok. We got into Pok Pok because the owner's name sounds similar to yours and therefore you know him. And we are friends now. We are friends. He invited me to his wedding in Thailand, which I, boy, I wish I could have gone to his wedding in Thailand, but you know. This makes me jealous because I don't know, for example, Ken Jeong. I don't know Kat Dennings. How do you get on the be friends with people whose names are phonetically similar to yours? Well, for those who don't know, there's a guy named Andy Ricker. He's an amazing chef. He has a very popular Thai restaurant in Portland, longstanding restaurant

called Pak Pak. It's amazing, incredibly authentic Thai food. And he's also written some absolutely beautiful cookbooks, if anybody cares about that kind of thing, because I do. But yeah, his name is Andy Ricker, R-I-C-K-E-R. And people started addressing him with questions about the Conan show or comments about his failing career in show business. Do you get questions about fish sauce, chicken wings? And people were saying things to me about my restaurant. It's fantastic, Andy. Giving me notes about my restaurant. Who knew that you had it in you?

So we then started talking. And then we met. And now he just was in town, actually, because he has a new noodle cookbook. And I went and hung out with him and met him. Well, we got a very good table next to you. And he lives in Thailand for the most part now. We should get off this.

Nobody gives a shit about this except for Andy Ricker. The thing I wanted to say, because maybe you'll be too modest to say it, is that you and I are both elite Jeopardy champions. We are. And that's why we hang out. Yes, that's another reason. We're part of the arranged date service that Jeopardy does. That Alex Trebek personally provides.

Yeah, that's right. He drives the limo. What a nice guy. He's incredible now. For him to do that. Well, it's, yeah, except I'm sort of like dumb, dumb Jeopardy. I'm celebrity Jeopardy. But you dominated celebrity Jeopardy to such a level that it's very clear that you would also be a good civilian Jeopardy player.

I think I would be okay. No. No, I think I would be be a good civilian Jeopardy player. I think I would be okay. No. No, I think I would be okay. I don't- Look at those numbers, Andy. I'm going to, can we bring up the clip? Like every, I love looking at that still. And most people are looking at Wolf Blitzer when they look at that still.

And I'm looking at your face because that is Jeopardy excellence right there. I, thank you. That was, that one, that was the second time I was on. I was on, it was about 10 years prior. And actually the 10 years prior, and they must have doubled the money by now. Because it's the, I, at that time too, I think I was, people, it was erroneously reported in Wikipedia that I was the top celebrity Jeopardy champion. But I was actually third behind the English guy from The Nanny charles o'shaughnessy is that yeah jerry orbach which i i'm happily behind jerry orbach and i don't mean that in a sexual way

um and then me but with very few dollars separating the three of us but that was like i don't know that was like 20 or 30 grand whereas whereas this time I think I won 60-something, just because they increased. Yeah, they doubled, though. But the first time, it was like I took no joy in Wolf Blitzer's poor performance. I felt terrible. You're a man with a heart. Yes. You feel for your fellow human being.

And, you know, Wolf didn't have an earpiece in, so he was at a disadvantage. Did you think he asked? Hey, so usually when I do TV. Usually when I say things, someone's in my ear telling me what to say. Please, I hope he doesn't listen to this because I have to see him once a year or so. And he's a lovely man. What are the odds that Wolf Blitzer is like, oh, look, Andy Richter's podcast. Andy Richter's podcast.

You have an impression and I don't. He reminds me of one of my greatest humiliations. It is. I mean, Jeopardy is very hard. Nobody who hasn't done it understands what a pressure cooker is. Oh, absolutely. And you go in scared shitless thinking like, I could look like a real idiot here. Honestly, that's harder in Celebrity Jeopardy.

Like, you know, just some Midwestern librarian getting on Jeopardy. Yeah. You know, they don't care that much about what is reported about their game yes whereas i i really admire the people on celebrity jeopardy who have something to lose yes uh i i think so too and they just want to play the game more than they're worried about their career right well what i was getting to is the first time around i played against esopatha murkerson who was absolutely delightful. You play a lot of Law & Order actors. You never played Jerry Orbach. No, no.

I just, I was, he just was. He just outplayed you. Yeah, he was a very good contestant. And then Brian Dennehy. And Brian Dennehy, it was delicious to crush Brian Dennehy. Because Brian Dennehy was such a dick to me. Like going into the whole thing he was like you know just like just fucking you know senior in high school picking on a freshman kind of energy

from the very beginning wow so it was a lot of fun to really like just crush him crush him isn't Brian Dennehy still with us like he's still yeah us? Like he's still alive. Yeah, yeah, no. And you're fine saying that. Oh, I'm absolutely fine saying that. He was very mean to you backstage at Jeopardy. Because he was a dick. If somebody's a dick, I'm going to say they're a dick. And he was a dick. And he was, and he, like he did things like,

because I was actually taping a remote for the Conan show. I did it as a remote, like, you know, on backstage. During the game. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, at a certain point, I had to say to the writer that was with me, I'm no longer taping remote. I'm now on Jeopardy.

So don't expect me to be funny on camera here now. But there was, you know, like there's this sort of pregame sort of walkthrough and he was a dick about that and talking about how his education and stuff. And I had mentioned that I had been practicing on like PlayStation or something. I don't even remember what the game systems were back then. Practicing Jeopardy.

Yeah, practicing Jeopardy, which is not, I mean, that's not, it's not the same. It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, there's a button, but it's not the same button. So at one of the commercial breaks, as I was already winning, S, as she liked to be called. No kidding. I had no idea. She said her friends call her S. I learned something new today.

S and I were talking and I said, yeah, I said, the button is pretty tricky. You know, you don't really know until you're there. And I was like, the button is pretty tricky. And then he goes, well, you don't seem to be having any fucking problems with it. I like how he turns into some mean irish gangster from a movie well and he was he was like he goes like yeah yeah he's like he goes but then you got an he likes implied like i had an advantage

because i had practiced on your with your video game on a video game system and then at the end after i won handily um you i don't know if you I don't know if you could go back and see it. But he crosses over, shakes my hand, gives it one of those tough guy intimidating. Miller's crossing. Squeezes on my hand. He goes, congratulations, you son of a bitch. Wow. Exactly like that.

Weirdly, I played Brian Dennehy's daughter on regular Jeopardy. Wait, you mean in the role? Ken Jennings as Brian Dennehy's daughter. I was an understudy, but like, you know, the show must go on. Right, right, right. Exactly. Get this wig on. She tried out for Jeopardy. You're going to go out there just a Jeopardy champion. You're coming back a star, Ken. No, she was just, she had tried out for regular Jeopardy, and she was pretty good. And she has an actress sister, and I mistook her for her,

but it's not. It's the non-actress Dennehy. Well, you're not going to tell me now you're close personal friends with the Dennehy family. And her dad was so delightful. No. Son of a bitch. He was not there.

I was just going to say that I also defeated a Dennehy on Jeopardy for you, Andy. Yeah. Take that. And I'll keep doing it. Yeah. If I also defeated a Dennehy on Jeopardy for you, Andy. Yeah. Take that. And I'll keep doing it. If they keep putting up Dennehy's on Jeopardy, I will go back and just take them out one by one for you. Bring it on, Irish. All right. Well, that's a good preamble of our self-involvement with our own Jeopardy accomplishments. But the show is called Three Questions. Did anybody clue you in as to what those three questions are?

Someone sent me the questions, which Jeopardy does not do. No, no. Not even for Wolf. Yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah, so where do you come from? I mean, you live in Seattle now. Are you from the Northwest originally? I do. I come from Seattle. I come from the seventies. My dad was a lawyer. So when I was a little kid, he was still in law school because my parents were sixties kids and had their kids super young. I think my mom was like just about to turn 20 when she got married or something. So my parents were and are youngish.

And, you know, so I remember my dad being in law school, and I felt like we were poor. And we were. It was a $10 a week grocery budget. But it was not poor, poor. It was like law student poor. Now I see that there's a difference, and I can't feel like I'm down just because we had a $10 a week grocery budget when I was five. But when he graduated, we moved back to Seattle. It's something, too, that they planted that in your head.

Like that they just, like that you, I don't know what the grocery budget at our house was. It is, that's family lore for sure. Isn't it funny how families have that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The secret origin stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Much of it perhaps true.

Right. I know, exactly. I bet some weeks they spent 12. The story I remember is my great-grandma would send a little extra money every week so they could buy a bunch of bananas because she was worried that I was not getting my potassium. Oh, my God. That is like, that's really down to the penny. To this day, I have very thrifty parents whose Depression-era parents probably instilled that into them. Right, right.

That stuff echoes, you know. And you're probably a potassium hoarder now. That's right. Now that you can afford it. Come into my prepping basement where you can see my winter wheat and my potassium stores. You bathe in coconut water just because you can. So anyway, so yeah, so public school. Public schools, but we, and I remember like on this, you know, as speaking of family lore, it's all what actually works out that does not get forgotten. I was a huge game show nerd as a kid. And on my first day of kindergarten, I remember just bawling because I realized that I had been looking forward to school all summer, but it had not hit my five-year-old brain that I was going to miss Hollywood Squares and Match Game and The Feud and Pyramid.

And so I was just very sad that my new life meant no more game shows. Right. And that's not entirely true, but. Were your folks into game shows or was it just something that you kind of picked up yourself? I think I kind of came out of the faucet this way. My parents are both smart. Yeah. Like I think they were both the smartest people their friends knew.

And when they hooked up, like when they became a couple, I think one of their friends told them like, you are going to raise genetic super children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm not a eugenics experiment, but their friends thought I might. Thought, yeah, yeah, yeah. That they were put together by some IQ dating service. Right.

Which maybe did not exist in 1972. But I was always kind of the nerdy kid carrying around the Guinness Book of World Records and bugging mom and dad with, you know, smart sounding fact toys. Yeah, yeah. Most people I meet like me were born like that. Yes. And I don't know what that means. I don't know either.

I mean, yeah, because I kind of, like I was definitely Guinness Book of World Records. I really did. That's a touchstone for that kind of kid. Yes, absolutely. I mean, pouring over it and remembering, having still have vivid picture memories of various pages of it. I remember trying to check the World Atlas out of the library when I was a kid instead of picture books or whatever I should have been reading.

And the librarian had to explain to me, this is the reference section. You can't take the maps home. And I was so mad. It's as big as you are, too, reading. Right, right, right. And the librarian had to explain to me, this is the reference section. You can't take the maps home. Yeah, and it's as big as you are, too, probably. It's really, yeah. It's immersive for a kid. And for a kid that does not have any kind of power or mastery in their life, I think that's what facts provide to a certain kind of kid.

You feel like you have a handle on the world. Absolutely. You know something about polar bears that mom and dad didn't know or whatever. And the sort of cliche is that nerds get bullied. Were you a victim of any of that? Not that much. I mean, I realized that I didn't like to stand out. To this day, I have a very deep-seated, still kind of seven-year-old Ken

dislike of standing out or being noticed. But I kind of pivoted to being the funny kid. Because if you're the smart kid, and I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know, the smart kid might get bullied, but the funny kid can pivot. The class clown has a place to go and can turn that back on the person or honestly, worst case, find someone else that they can joke about, deflect. So you have an arsenal when you're the funny kid and i think a lot of that did come from just being kind of aware that i was a little too smart and that's off-putting yes yes yes no you're agreeing with that a bit much just like you are today i am

no no i mean i i agree because that dynamic is a very common one and i mean and well when you're funny you figure out quickly the things that that can get you um like you can you know like from the very early age i really my first experience with putting together being funny gets me something i want was staying up later if i if i like you know reenacted carol burnett sketches my grandmother, I didn't have to go to bed when she wanted me to go to bed. That's fantastic. Yeah. And then I never had to worry that much about bullying because I've always been large. Bullies are tactical.

They pick the object that no one will object to. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I was reading research on this. Oh, really? Yeah. Bullies are not just like, how about him? The bullies don't want to risk anything, absolutely. Absolutely. I was reading research on this. Oh, really? Yeah. Like bullies are not just like, how about it? Like the bullies don't want to risk anything.

Sure. Yeah. So they'll pick the target that does not affect their social status at all. Yeah. And it is like, there really is like so much bullying is fear-based. It's, you know, it's. Right. Bullies are in, you know, it's a cliche and it's, you know, cliches are true.

So then in high school, extracurriculars, what were you doing? We moved overseas, weirdly, when I was like seven. Oh, really? How come? My dad had served, yeah. It does seem like we're fleeing something, right? Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. I can't talk about this to this day.

Atlas theft. We got to get out of here. That library guy. Ken stole another thesaurus. My dad had served a Mormon mission in South Korea during the late 60s. Loved it. Loved the language. Loved the culture.

Like kind of one of these guys who, you know, does the Colonel Kurtz thing and feels, or does a study abroad and is like, let me tell you about Moldova, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so he really wanted to go back. And he got a chance to move back there for a couple of years. And two years turned into over a decade.

So I grew up in Seoul, just coming back to Seattle in the summers. Do you speak Korean? My Korean's kind of lousy. I can order food and give directions to a cab driver. Just survival kind of stuff. But when it came time to choose a language to do in school, I was like, not Korean. I'm in Korea. What could be more banal? So I took Spanish. And my Spanish to this day is pretty

good, which I learned in South Korea. Well, which is certainly as if not more useful here than, you know, I mean, in Los Angeles, Korean would be very handy, but. In LA, you can order tacos in either language. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's true. Spanish has worked out more, but I do feel bad when I tell, especially a Korean, yeah, I lived in your beautiful country for 11 years, maybe longer than you. And they're like, ah, I don't speak. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Can we switch back?

It would come in handy, too, in LA for municipal golf. I've spent a lot of time with old Korean men, wordlessly, basically, you know, hours and just with good shot. You know, that being sort of the only phrase exchanged. Does it ever end with you guys all in the sauna in the Korean spa? No, no, but I do. There is a Wii spa here. Have you ever been? I have.

Well, yeah. My friends used to go there. We used to go there as kids. Oh, really? Like to me, we called it a spa. We didn't even say Korean spa. Yeah, yeah. We mean, my friends used to go there. We used to go there as kids. Oh, really? Like to me, we called it a spa. We didn't even say Korean spa. Yeah, yeah. We were in Korea.

Yeah. Yeah, no, there's a big one here that you go to and pretty crazy. And also it's sort of like, you know, like the amazing thing is like when you're to go there, the most striking thing to me is like, I don't see lots of naked men around, you know? So it's always sort of just this. This is my one outlet for that little part of me. don't see lots of naked men around, you know, so it's always sort of just this. This is my one outlet for that little part of me. All of a sudden I'm surrounded by 30 naked men. I didn't know penises came in so many varieties. They do have different nudity taboos than they do,

it turns out. Oh my god, yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's very little compunction about squatting and scrubbing and whatever, you know, whatever else is going on. And that was a very interesting thing about moving there so young is you really do see like, this place is authentically different. Like all this stuff about how it's a small world and we're all the same. I mean, honestly, cultures are pretty different, but this one is older than ours and seems to be doing just fine. Like the weddings are different. Like men sometimes hold hands in Korea without any kind of sexual connotation. You know, the obvious customs are all right in front of you. Yeah.

And you learn how to navigate them. But everybody's doing great. Like it's not just like the one thing I saw in my hometown was the way to go. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty important lesson for a kid that age in hindsight. I kind of wish we had been able to raise our kids out of the country often. We don't. We don't.

But we try to travel at least. Yeah, yeah. So your dad practiced law then in Korea? He did for over, and American and Western companies were moving in, and he was the guy working on the joint ventures

for McDonald's and Lego. Oh, wow. Because in the early 80s, Korea just looked like it did at the end of the war. Yeah. It was not yet a developing kind of tiger nation.

And by the time we left, there was a pizza hut on every corner. We did it, America. Thanks to your dad. Thanks to my dad, Koreans are now taller and kind of getting obese, I think. Kind of getting obese. Way to go, Dad.

That's totally true. You can look at the numbers of when American fast food moves into a country, and you can see height increasing because people are getting more protein, and then you can see weight start to go up because our diet is not awesome. No, no, it's not. Well, you're welcome, world. My friends and I were all obsessed with Jeopardy because it was on, all we had was like the Army TV station.

Yeah, yeah. We had one TV channel and it was- Did you have a lot of Korean friends or were most of your friends expat kind of kids? Most of my friends were Korean Americans whose dads had moved back. Well, you know, they were born in the States. They were US citizens because They were US citizens because you had to have some kind of foreign passport to go to my international school. But it was almost entirely... There were some missionary kids, some embassy kids, some expat kids, but it was almost entirely Korean kids whose parents had had them in the US and then moved back for work. So they were kind of like of no culture. And that kind of eventually

happened to me. I didn't really feel like I was a very good American either after being there for over a decade. Yeah. I was going to say, I mean, what do you think sort of the main thing, the main formative influence living 11 years? You said 11 in Korea? 11 years. Yeah. One of them was Jeopardy, just Army TV putting Jeopardy on after school every day so me and all my friends were obsessed with Jeopardy from 1984 on

which is kind of a weird thing and turned out to be pivotal for me and that was when that was when it came because it came back

with Alex Trebek in 84 yeah yeah so I was in fourth grade and we were just fixated on it we would talk about it on the playground yeah

because there was nothing else to watch I was just I was struck the other day that because I saw a picture of, they had, you know, there was a picture of Alex Trebek and it said, you know, before the first show in 1984. And I just was like, I'm 52 years old.

That's the year I graduated high school. And that's how long he's been doing it. Like when you put things into those kind of perspectives. I was 10 years old. That's crazy. And at the time he was just, he was, you know, into those i was 10 years old that's crazy and at the time he was just he was you know the card sharks guy or whatever he kind of grew into this uh this authority the smooth canadian you know just by doing it every night right right he's amazing and uh i guess and what's the other i mean do you think there's any sort of like like do you

does it give you a different perspective, like having lived somewhere compared to, you know, what a lot of Americans? Yeah, I think, you know, the thing I said about just kind of having a larger perspective and, you know, the American way does not have to be necessarily the only way. Yeah. And maybe also just kind of the alienation of like eventually moving back to America for college and not feeling like I was of there anymore. Yeah. Like I was of there anymore. I didn't fit in in Korea. I didn't quite fit in there. And people from adopted kids or people from biracial backgrounds, they talk about this all the time.

But it was very interesting to just come up against it in college and realize I didn't quite know how to navigate people. I didn't know how to drive. I don't have a checking account. I don't know how to drive. Like I don't have a checking account, you know, just, I don't know how to do, I didn't have a normal 7-Eleven parking lot kind of adolescence. Right, right. So that's, that's kind of stuck with me too. The sense that, you know, I don't really have a place

where I'm totally native anymore. Yeah, yeah. Did, being raised Mormon in the LDS church, I mean, did that in Korea, was there a Mormon community there? Yeah, there was a congregation. Weirdly, a lot of intelligence guys. Oh, really? CIA loves Mormons so much. Wow. Why?

They are hierarchical. They're used to just doing what they've been asked to do. Yeah, yeah. Because it's a very structured church. They are intensely patriotic. Mormons, especially in my era, were political conservatives. And they are impossible to blackmail. Because we don't drink.

We don't sit on our wives. A Mormon spy is never going to. We don't. I mean, some Mormons drink and cheat. I mean, look. I know it's your faith. But listen. It's not. They're human. I know the look, I know it's your faith, but listen, it's not.

They're human. I know the stories too that come out later. But as a culture. Yeah, yeah. That's not what we put on the brochure. You're still a practicing LDS church member? Yes. And because it's a fascinating church to me. It's just like the Joseph Smith story, that Fawn Brody book.

The 19th century origins are very strange. Yeah, yeah. Because we prefer to have a religion that had all the strange things happen in 20 BC. Yes, exactly. No, no. It's every bit as, I mean. So to imagine supernatural, to imagine like God's hand in early America is an odd shift. Exactly, exactly.

And I kind of like the strangeness of it, honestly. It's been very good for me. Something I've learned about myself, I think, later in life is that I don't have all the same impulses for just being a great person that I see around me. I want to be a good person, but it takes some effort to overcome awful Ken, who is kind of lazy and self-absorbed. And you think that your faith informs that. I think it really, really changed me in that there's a better way to live. Let's go to the other camera and see what Jesus would be thinking of what you're doing right now. That kind of thing was very helpful for me. Not in a guilt or shame way, but just like, don't you admire people like that?

Why aren't you like that? Yeah. Was there a point at which just sort of growing up in a faith and just having it be around you and just kind of, you know, you take what you're given when you're a kid and then really assuming ownership of it, really having like, rather than it just being sort of a habit that you're immersed in to being an active choice that you make. It's a tricky corner to turn. And I think religion, all religions, and probably my religion in particular, lose a lot of people at that corner because a lot of people had just grew up with the

church out of a failure of imagination. This is the only way to live, obviously. And as soon as they hit an age where they're like, wait, no, most people go to Starbucks. What are you doing, Mormon kid, you? Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, wait, there are other options. Yeah. And I feel like I was very lucky in that I was raised,

no, there are options. Like, you should, and part of it was being overseas, I think, and just seeing all the other options. It's a big world. And if this is good for you, you should be here. And so I never had that sense of disillusionment and rage that I think a lot of people do when they're like, wait a second, my parents raised me in a very small religious terrarium and I'm done.

Yeah. And with a lot of judgment too. I mean, there's, you know. On both sides. Yeah. Oh, of course, of course. But people do feel lied to. Yeah.

And with, but I mean, also too, within the Mormon faith, as with any faith, you know, the treatment of African-American, you know, members in the church and that kind of thing. Sure, I mean, yes. That can be very disillusioning. Our record on race, our record on LGBT issues, like, it is far from exemplary. Yes. But like I say, Southern Baptists, you know, I mean, there's a lot of Catholics. There's a lot of faiths with a lot of problematic, you know, aspects. I feel like it's changing, but I do have a kind of, I don't know what you would call it,

sacred envy for like people whose religions like let them be like lead on those issues, like, you know, Quakers or whatever. Right, right. Good for you, Quakers. Like, that would have been nice to not have to explain lead on those issues, like, you know, Quakers or whatever. Right. Right. Good for you. Quakers. Like that would have been nice to not have to explain to my friends again, how like Mormons are less racist than we appear on paper. I swear. I swear. Yeah. Yeah. Love that conversation. Not all Mormons. Hashtag not all Mormons.

Yeah. Cause I, you know, that's, I, I'm, I'm, I'm always kind of fascinated with people that just have like a, I mean, not in a Woody Allen way, like I wish that I had faith. Because I'm not, I mean, I'm agnostic. I don't, like I said, somebody, I was at a baby shower and somebody was talking about being an atheist. And I was like, I don't care enough to be an atheist. I'm agnostic, you know. That started to be my reaction to any internet uh interaction i'm always like what are you guys arguing about yeah it doesn't have to be about religion it could be

about a dc comics movie and i'm still like just stop yeah yeah like join me and not caring that much i frequently hear around the conan show and i say here because we're shooting we're taping this at the studio um there will be a discussion about a particular, a bit, you know, like an aspect of a bit, the changing the ending. I'll say, I think it should go this way. And someone will say, no, but I think this. And after, they'll go back and forth about three times. And then, and I very frequently go, you know what?

I don't care anymore. I just stopped. What do I have to do to not be in this conversation? We talked about it. We talked about it for about 45 seconds. And you know what? Honestly, I don't care. Do whatever.

Doesn't matter. That would be my religion. Yeah, yeah. Just fine-ism. Yes, exactly. Please leave me alone about this. Enough is enough-ism. Yeah, but no, I grew up in the United Church of Christ, which is actually kind of a nice,

one of those churches that sort of is, you know, very liberal. You're one of the good ones, Andy. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. But I never, I was never encumbered by actual faith. I just liked, you know, I liked going to church. I like, we had a deacon. And I was the youth member on the search committee

when they replaced our minister. How old were you? I was 15, 16, something like that. But they had, in the meeting, like I say, I was a deacon too. In the meeting, they realized at the end, after they picked the search committee, they said, oh, you know what? We should have a youth member. And somebody was like, like it fucking mattered. They're like, yes, but according to the rules of parliamentary procedure, we've already closed

the membership. And they're like, well, we can pick an ex officio youth member, meaning like you would be advisory, but you wouldn't be able to vote. And that was me and all these adults, you know. And I mean, it was a long process. And I read resumes to hire a new minister. And they were like, incredibly disillusioning moment was, there was a minister that was fantastic. And you get transcripts of their sermons, and he was absolutely great. And one of my favorite people, adults on the thing, in this meeting, because I was totally gung-ho on this guy. And his last name was White. And this guy said, well, I found out that Mrs. White is black. And I don't think that our congregation's ready for that.

Wow. And that was it. I mean, I continued the process. And they hired some boring old fart. But I was done. I stopped, you know, because it was like. But like I say, I didn't have to go to another church. I like that church. I like being in the community of it. But I've always just kind of felt like it's all too unknowable to really.

Yeah, I'm definitely the same way. I'm skeptical of certainty in all its forms about those kind of questions. And some churches are not that into skepticism of certainty. Sure, sure. But I do kind of feel like that's kind of how religion is going to have to be in our time. It's going to just have to be a way of navigating your doubts and your faith as they kind of fight within you and giving you a place, a community to do it in. And like, I had a lot of benefits from growing up that way. Like I was, I enjoyed the community of it. I was lucky enough not to be a woman or a black kid or a closeted gay kid who, you know,

who would have had maybe a rougher time in a closed-minded religious community. And so it was, it was great for me and it kept me from getting in a lot of trouble, probably. And my kids are the same way. They love it. But in an increasingly secular world, I feel like they're going to get the benefit of that kind of an upbringing. But what are the odds they're going to be like, yeah, this is for me? This odd, very specific set of ways to live your life.

Yeah. Is your wife Mormon? She is. And she always is? She know, she didn't convert. She was. Yeah. She's a lifelong member. Also grew up overseas.

We're kind of weirdly symmetrical. Oh, really? Where'd she grow up? Germany and then Hong Kong. Her dad was. Military. But not a spy. Like I was so sure.

It's like, right, right. Mormon guy claiming to be commerce department. Right, right. Wink, wink. But he's been retired a long time and has not dropped cover. So if he was a spy, he was probably spying for the other guys. He's a spy. He's got to be a spy.

Just saying this, it's way sexier. Okay. It's important to have a sexy father-in-law. That's something I've always swore by. You keep saying that. I know. It's written on my T-shirt. You can't see it.

You always just lay a hand on my shoulder and say, Ken, it's so important to have a sexy father-in-law. And I whisper it. Can't you tell my love's a-growing? So, college. You came back here for college, or you stayed there, or? Yeah, I went to University of Washington. I wanted to move back. I kind of felt like my childhood in beautiful Seattle had been robbed for me in a way.

So I moved back to Seattle. But then I served a Mormon mission myself in Madrid, Spain. Rough. And yeah, they're not. Oh, no. It turns out that is not a peninsula full of people just dying to see the light. No, I know. But still, it's like it's, you know.

Oh, but it's a cool place to live. Yes, exactly. That's what I mean. And my wife served in Paris. Oh, my God. So all these poor kids go into Guatemala or Ukraine or whatever. And we're like. Yeah, or the middle of Africa.

Yeah, and I'm going to the Prado. Yeah. But yeah, it was. Oh, no, tapas. Really having a hard time saving souls, no tapas really having a hard time saving souls but tapas Barcelona would have been nicer

but I guess Madrid's fine that's great and how long is that that's a year two years two years yeah

yeah that's a long two years is it well it really is like this is your full time gig yeah like there's a day a week when you can

you know write home and play ball and do your errands. But really, it's like you get up, you just try to talk to people all day and see if anybody wants to hear the good word. And if they don't, that's a long day. Yeah, yeah. Wow, it is. And I imagine you too, you don't have any money to do anything. Yeah, exactly. You pay your own way and everybody's on kind of the very same, very tight budget to kind of, you know, make it a non, a classless situation as much as possible. How are you, how are you supervised? I mean,

just that it's kind of a fascinating, it really is the mission, the Mormon mission. Like, how are you supervised? Like how, like how do they know you're not fucking off? You know what I mean? Basically, sometimes you're in a little town and they don't. I really, I think I want to write a book about like what the, my mission was like. And I also want to track down the people I was with and see who still identifies as religious.

I think it'd be an interesting way to, to kind of watch a generation become more secular is to see who, which of those people is still church going. Did you feel that even within that, there were some of the people that were kind of turning secular? Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of, it's not the environment for it, but I think you could tell who was

just, who was there because they had that fire in their, you know, fire inside. Yeah. And who was there because in their tiny Utah town, there would have been a lot of shame and guilt if they weren't there. If they hadn't done that. And who was there just because this is what all the kids do and just kind of the failure of imagination thing. There were definitely all three kinds.

Yeah. And then maybe even more like just kind of confused kids like me trying to figure it out. Yeah. And so you're right. How do you supervise that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a full-time guy, he and his wife and maybe kids move over there and their

job is to keep an eye on a couple hundred missionaries. My dad did that a couple of years ago in Korea. He was the guy supervising a city full of missionaries. Wow. For how long? They go for three years, I think. Oh, wow. He loved it. You just leave your life and go do that. Yeah, yeah. And he loved it. But can you imagine trying to keep 18 hormonal kids from just raising ruckus in Madrid or whatever? Absolutely. Yeah, no. Hormonal kids. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. From just raising ruckus in Madrid or whatever. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. But it's, as you can imagine, a pretty regimented life.

Sure. And I'm thinking of all the dumb things I could have done between 19 and 21. Honestly, I probably dodged a lot of bullets. Yeah, yeah. And then so you come back from mission. And do you have your degree at that point? No, I had gone for a year. You go to mission, and then you come back for college.

And I actually transferred. I transferred to BYU just because a lot of my friends were there then. And it seemed like a lot easier. After two years in that environment, I was like, oh, yeah. We'll all hang out after. Same culture, yeah. And it's a fine, honestly, it's a fine place to get your undergrad degree. There's not a lot of ways to ruin your life in Provo, Utah.

And it's pretty. It's a beautiful place. Oh, my gosh. It's amazing. Mountains are right there. And so I was an English major, and I thought maybe I would teach or write. And you went to BYU first and then to Washington? No, I transferred from UW to BYU when I got back from my mission.

I see. And so I ended up graduating from BYU. And I was going to go to grad school to maybe get a higher, get a PhD in English or something. But instead, my wife and I got engaged the summer I was graduating. Yeah. And I needed to pay the bill. So I went to work for my friend's internet startup, because it was 2000. Yeah, yeah.

It was all about to crash, but we didn't know. So I ended up in computers, even though that was not really my dream. It turned out I was not even all that good at it, actually. But it was, you know, it seems like this will pay the rent. So I was not all that happy in those first few years realizing that I was, you know, is this my life? I'm a computer guy. Like all these guys love it and I don't. And so I was always bugging my wife with, you know, what's the plan? I guess what she remembers is me always saying, I should go to law school, honey.

Like twice a week. What if I quit and went to law school? And instead, I just happened to try out for Jeopardy on a whim. And that turned out to be the thing that saved my early midlife crisis. Right, right, right. They got you out of computers. How old were you when you went on Jeopardy? 29.

Yeah. Which is good. It's a young person's game, I think. People ask, I'm 45 now, and people are like, Ken, you're going to go play that James guy on Jeopardy, right? And I'm like, with this broke-ass brain, really? That guy's 30, and I can't summon 2004 Ken to play that guy, you know? Yeah, no, he was amazing.

You know, I caught it towards the end of his thing. But, I mean, you know, I mean, he did do that sort of run across the bottom of the board and find those daily doubles quick. But also, he fucking knew his stuff, you know? Yeah, people are acting like that's the secret sauce. Like, you realize the guy gets like 40 questions a game and doesn't get one wrong. Exactly.

Like, he's pretty good no matter what strategy he plays. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, he just figured out a way to maximize the money, you know? And that also puts the other players away before the first commercial break, you know? If you run that bottom row, you start it from the bottom, Drake style, and then you find the daily double and double up, like the time the first commercial hits, you're up 10,000 bucks? Yeah, yeah. If you run that bottom row, you know, start it from the bottom, Drake style, and then you find the daily double and double up.

Yeah. Like, the time the first commercial hits, you're up $10,000. Right, right. That's kind of dispiriting. Had other, I mean, I don't watch as regular as I used to. Is that something that other people had done, or was he kind of like a pioneer of fucking everyone else over? A lot of the money, that's what... What a nice t-shirt, yeah.

There have been moneyball guys who like search for daily doubles for sure. Yeah, yeah. Because that's non-random. You can try to find the daily doubles. Yeah. Starting from the bottom

is a little more uncommon. Like, you don't see that much. And the combination of the two, start at the bottom so that you can double up on the first daily double. Right. That's all him.

And that's just him being a sports better and being like, let's get all the chips on the first daily double. That's all him. And that's just him being a sports better and being like, let's get all the chips on the table when I've got my shot. And also, it's a baller move to start at the bottom and say, I don't need to warm up my brain. I'm going to go right to the hardest shit. A lot of it's shock and awe. Yeah, yeah.

Because you've got these two new players. The longer you're on the show, the more advantage you have. And every day, they bring in fresh meat, two new people. And they are just trying to figure it out. And by the time they can blink, it feels like it's over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always, uh, the buzzer, the button is really something because I like afterwards I, I, I did say like you, it is an athletic competition, but just with the thumb, the finger, whatever you choose to do. Because the way it works, I don't know. I'm just saying this for people that don't know, is that there is a screen that the contestant sees.

Well, I'll let you explain it, how it works, how the countdown lights. You were getting it right. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, but I'm supposed to be interviewing you. People are sick of my voice. No, there's a screen and you see the question. And as Alex is reading it, alongside that, there is a series of lights that count down very much like the lights in a drag race.

You know how they, you know, there's that tree. And then it goes down. And when that bottom light goes out, the buzzer is open. And if you hit the button before that, you're locked out for half a second, something like that. When I was doing it, the lights would come on when he got done reading. And then they count down as your time expires. Oh, is that what it was? Okay. Then I'm misremembering it. But that's exactly right. You can't buzz while he's reading. Yes.

When he's done, some random guy somewhere flips a switch, and then your button's live. Yeah, yeah. And if you buzz in early, yeah, you're locked out for, I don't know what it is, but it's a fraction of a second. Yeah, it's a fraction, but it's enough. It's enough to make it. It's enough, yeah. It's enough that you'll get beaten by the person who did not jump the gun. See, because I remembered it being a countdown, because there's a thing called ADR, which is automatic dialogue replacement.

Oh, yeah. Which is when you go into the studio and it's when the audio is bad on something and you go in and you repeat your line. Or if there's a line change and they can't see your mouth move. But usually you're trying to match your own mouth movement. And the way that that system works is that you hear pre-roll of it and it rolls into it. And you probably know, I'm just explaining for people,

but, and there, and in your headset, while you're listening, the way that, you know, it's your time to talk as it goes, beep,

beep, beep. And then at the third, you say, and you speak on the fourth beep. So it's like beep, beep, beep, go. And that was a very similar kind of like i and i always had a facility for that even when i first

started having to do that do adr yeah doing that getting used to that rhythm and i think that that was very helpful it was a very similar thing because i could sort of watch and then get ready right when the right when the buzzer was supposed to push. Often they'll tell people just to wait till they see the lights and buzz. And I would always be trying to anticipate the lights. Yeah, yeah. Like, here's when Trebek's done and go. And I think you're a tiny bit faster than him.

But you really are just going off his voice. But if you spent decades listening to that voice and you feel like you're inside the rhythms of it, then you can kind of be one with Trebek and kind of just get there right as he's finishing the question. The timing is, it's all timing. Yeah. Now, your run was how many games? 75 games. 75 games.

And how many days were you actually there? It's a full week and a day. Yeah. So show up, win five games. Well, I'd fly down to LA, win 10 games, and then fly back to Salt Lake and go to work. And I couldn't tell anybody where I'd been. Yeah.

Because it's not going to air for months. Right. So my boss is covering for me at work, and my wife's covering for me with friends and family. So each of those was a 10-day chunk. So coming down here maybe eight times just to play Jeopardy. And it didn't air until you were done correct it overlapped i did overlap i had 148 yeah only time it's ever happened i had one i had taped 48 games on the show start to air and i think jeopardy's so nervous what if people hate this guy did we just destroy the show by by getting rid of the five-day game limit oh right

right this was the first time this had happened. Yeah, yeah. And it turned out to be good for them, but they didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. And so at that point – Well, you got to – I mean, you got to understand. I mean, it was you. Is that good or bad? No, that's bad.

No, I'm trying to insult you. Well, I think that is actually – That's such a shitty position to be in, though, to be like kicking ass and having them be nervous about, about you. They were careful to insulate me from that. I mean, nobody was like,

boy, if people hate your ass. Right, right, right. This franchise is screwed. Right. Jennings.

Yeah. Yeah. How about a nose job, Ken? Just a quick one. But I really was thinking they have to be thinking that. And at some point they're going to be like, that's enough for you. Yeah. But I think contractually they really couldn't.

Like I had to play till I lost. And once the show started to air, of course, people would show up to play Jeopardy and I would still be there. Yeah. And they'd be like, oh no, not this guy. Yeah. Yeah. So what was it like to have won 48 games to be sitting on like, holy shit. I'm, you know, when you get to 30, aren't you like, like bursting with just crazy excitement and egomania?

The, the experience of playing the game is so weird and surreal. Yeah. And then having to do that as a secret identity from my day job. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like I was not even thinking about the money. And I didn't think there would be actually

any life-changing, you know, any career change or any fame. You know, nobody in my life had, never in my life had anybody known who was winning on Jeopardy, you know? Yeah, yeah. So I did not, I expected to be recognized at Costco a few times. Right.

And that was it. Yeah. But I was, you know, it was like, I've got, it's like buying somebody a fun Christmas present. Yeah, yeah. And you just can't wait till they was it. Yeah. But I was, you know, it was like, I've got, it's like buying somebody a fun Christmas present. Yeah, yeah. And you just can't wait till they open it. And how do you explain to your job?

My boss would just lie. You know, she would, she would be like, oh yeah, Ken's kid is sick. Oh, so she did know that you were going to Jeopardy and you were kicking ass. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And so every day I would call her, you know, from, you know, leaving the Sony lot in Culver City and be like, Glenda, I, are you quitting? the Sony lot in Culver City and be like, Glenda, are you quitting?

Are you calling to quit? And I was like, no, but I won again. So I have to do five games again tomorrow. I'm so sorry. I'm going to miss the meeting. I got to play it again tomorrow. And she was sure I was going to quit. But I never quit.

Until I got the deal to write the first book, I never quit the job. Because you always read about lottery winners effing up their lives. Absolutely. And I didn't want to do anything rash. And how much, at the end of your run and the book deal, how much time was that in between those two things? I think the shows had already, you know, so I lose. Three months later, that show finally airs. Yeah.

And I think sometime in that gap, you know, I was, I was hearing from agents and stuff and I was like, no, no, I don't want some quickie book with recipes that somebody else ghost writes. You know, like I would love to write a book about what it was like and what if it's about American quiz culture and how you get like this. And, and I finally, and I finally got that deal at Random House and it was, I think it was around the time the last show aired. And I finally got that deal at Random House. And I think it was around the time the last show aired. Okay. And I finally realized I could not write a book and keep programming. Yeah, yeah.

I just didn't have time. So you didn't, and so it wasn't like a long time. It wasn't like you. It was, I think a few months after the last show. You became America's sweetheart, and then you had to go slave at that grind for another year. Yeah, that is what happened. Yeah. And it was funny.

You fly back in from LA. You've just won. You've just passed your first game show million or whatever and you've got to go to the morning staff meeting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like you care. Fuck this. Why am I here? And when you lost, what happened? You know, it's Russian roulette every night on Jeopardy.

Yeah. You know, like you're going to lose once and you don't know what night somebody else is going to find the Daily Doubles. That's what happened to this James guy. The same woman found both Daily Doubles and he played a really good game

but you can't do anything against that or you're not going to know final or you're just going to be off on the buzzer somehow. For me, it was finding both Daily Doubles and Double Jeopardy, but also not knowing them. Oh, boy. Got them both wrong, had the narrowest of leads going into final,

and then didn't know final. Oh, wow. So it got beat fair and square. But the weird thing is it lasted as long as it did. I think there were about a dozen games where if one question falls a different way, I go home. So it was just law of averages. Were there some where you didn't know the final?

Every time I need, usually I had the game locked up. You know, you try to have more than twice, you would know this, you have to have more than twice as much as your nearest Wolf Blitzer so you don't have to worry about final. And the few times that didn't happen because somebody else got aggressive, found a daily double or whatever,

I just happened to get final right. Right. But, you know, usually I didn't happen because somebody else got aggressive, found a daily double or whatever. I just happened to get final right. But usually I didn't have to. Out of that run, how many times do you think you got final wrong? My numbers were not that great, actually. James's final, I've seen stats because people are like, let's see how he stacks up. And it turns out we're pretty similar. He's a little better in most of the categories, but his final Jeopardy stats are like 90%. Wow. And mine were about like 60. And when I go back, I think Final used to be harder, actually. Maybe I'm just, you know, I'm in the dead ball era or something, but it does seem like I played his questions and I was like, oh, I get 90 here too. You're a baby. That's your baby boomers talking.

That's right. It was harder in my day. We had to walk uphill both ways to get a Daily Double. Now, and this, I mean, it's really, it's kind of fascinating that this turned into a whole career for you. You know, like you said,

quiz culture. It's 15 years later. Yeah. And I assumed this was a 15-minute thing. Yeah, yeah. I had friends be like, you're going to go on Leno.

You should save that story for Leno. And I'm like, I'm not going on Leno. Like, I had no idea that it would be a thing. Yeah, yeah. I had friends be like, you're going to go on Leno. You should save that story for Leno. And I'm like, I'm not going on Leno. Like, I had no idea that it would be a thing. Yeah, yeah. It's very naive. And so, you know, and now you've got, you know, you've kind of got your, you know, you've got your little industry under yourself.

You've got, you know, your various games that you do and books that you write and columns, right? Yeah, it turns out I'm kind of a workaholic, which I don't think I knew about myself. Really? Yeah. That sucks. Like when my kids were little, you know, it would be much easier to just blow off work and hang out with the kids. But now that my kids are 16 and 12 and I don't see them

as much, it really is like, yeah, you know, I do all this little kind of ticky-tack writing stuff. Here's your column or your quiz you got to do. But I've got 12 books out. I'm already, I finished a book about comedy last year called Planet Funny. And I'm already late with a book about the afterlife. I'm not one of these evangelical kids who saw the afterlife. It's more like here's different cultures version of that. Right, right. As if it was a travel guide kind of thing. So I write books full time and sometimes I speak and I got, I have a podcast called Omn thing. So I write books full time, and sometimes I speak.

And I have a podcast called Omnibus I do twice a week with my musician friend, John Roderick, who I think, do you know John? I know John. I do know John, yeah, yeah. Everybody knows him. With the Long Winters? Yeah, he was the front man for the Long Winters. We're friends, and we do a podcast twice a week where we,

it's just one of these kind of two white dads yakking kind of shows. Fascinating. Cracking each other up. Yeah. People love that. Well, hold on. Not unlike this. It's one of the kind of funny stories from history and culture kind of ones. We do not have to do the logistics of an interview. Thank God. But, um, the, the, the gimmick such as it is, is that we, uh, are afraid the world is about to end and we are explaining these things to the future post-human earthlings. Nice. Like lobster people, you don't know about Milli Vanilli, but let us walk you through that. Yeah, yeah. And you also have, I understand, a game show network.

Yeah, I get to do an occasional TV thing. I'm one of the trivia experts on Best Ever Trivia Show on Game Show Network. Is that on now? Yeah, it's on weekdays on GSN. It started in June. And regular folks come on, but to get to the final round or whatever, they got to go head-to-head with a panel of trivia experts. Oh, I see.

It's one of the shows I used to love when I was a kid, just kind of a goofy panel, joking around with Sherry Shepard, who is the host. And Jeopardy! is a real pressure cooker, and this is a lot more fun. That's great. It's a good time. Yeah.

So 15 years later, I still kind of have a gig as a professional ex-Jeopardy! contestant. Right. And I don't know how long that lasts, but it's really the only thing I was ever good at, was being thatness Book of World Records kid so it's it's nice that I found a niche and and are you confident about you know the ongoing because you know the second question is like where are you going here um I mean do you feel like you basically keep fooling people is that what everybody in show business thinks?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I mean, no, everybody in show business is terrified that it's going away at any moment. I've seen so many interviews with people like Dustin Hoffman saying, when I finish a job, I feel like, well, that's it. I think there's imposter syndrome is like a part of it. And also just, like people tell me, cause I mean, I've had a, you know, for an agnostic, I still use the word blessed.

I've been blessed with an amazing career. And deservedly so. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. But I, you know, from, and from coming from where this sort of you know like i'm not a tremendously driven person and i and i definitely enjoy collaborating like i don't have that kind of fire that kind of megalo world eating fire that a lot of people in this business here's the next project yeah or like i've gotta you know i have something i have it all you, I've got to, you know, I've got to have it all, you know. I've got to have everyone know my name, you know.

But I do feel like, you know, I've been very lucky to do this. But, and people will tell me if I ever express kind of, like, well, I don't, you know. You know, insecurity about my future employability or like, because you always feel like, well, that's it. Now they're tired of't, you know, you know, insecurity about, about my future employability or like, because you always feel like, well, that's it. Now they're tired of me. You know, it's not so much imposter syndrome. Cause I do have a confidence in what I do, but it is like, it's just shelf life syndrome, right? Yeah. Because this it's so cruel. It's so cruel. And so easy and so dumb. They're so dumb. And the attention span, I mean like show business and the hiring process and the casting process is just so dumb like it's just like like i make a joke i just recently lost a bunch of weight and i've been saying like well now you know now i can get more roles as the fat guy

now that i've lost 40 pounds and i and i'm not kidding that's funny i'm not kidding um but i will say i'll express insecurity and people will say, oh, you don't have to worry. You'll always work. And I think like, you can say that. I just, I cannot feel that way. I cannot like, I just, because I feel like the minute that I think to myself, I'll always get work is when it'll stop. You know, like I feel like I need to be afraid a little bit in order to keep it going. And I don't, do you have that same kind of feeling, you know, with.

I, you know, I think for me, it's much more realistic. Why am I still a thing? You know, like, like everyone knows, you know. Well, but you're very talented and you, you're a great writer and you're a very funny person. So, you know. I like what I do. And I feel like, you know, the Jeopardy nest egg is such that if it did all go away, if everybody was like, this James guy is our new Ken, we don't need you anymore. Yeah. Uh, you know, we, my family would be fine and I would still find stuff to do that I liked to do on, on a, you know, on a smaller scale. And I think I would be okay with

that because I was a pretty happy, you know, we had just bought a little, my son was two, we had just bought a little starter home in the suburbs outside Salt Lake when I was on Jeopardy. Like we were fine. Yeah. And my main goal was like,

don't screw this up. You know, like you're fine. You know, your family seems okay. You know, whatever you do, don't risk it on game show fame, you know? Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And so far that's worked out okay. But, what is the shelf life of having been on a game show for six months in 2004? I don't know.

you, I think you, you found out. It's going, I mean, it's still, I mean, you're still,

you know, you're still a going concern. I tried, I tried to broaden it a bit so that, you know, the first book's going, I mean, it's still, I mean, you're still, you know, you're still a going concern. I tried to broaden it a bit so that, you know, the first book is about, you know, quiz jeopardy type stuff. And the second book was about trivia. The third book was about maps, which is geeky, but, you know, not quite the same kind of trivia geek. Yeah, yeah. And the fourth book was actually a parenting trivia book. So it's, you know, and the comedy thing is maybe a bridge too far.

Like, why do I really want to hear what Ken Jennings thinks about comedy culture? But, you know, there is a sense of like, you know, like how far can I take this? You know, what am I interested in and what's the next thing? And being a writer means you can spend a little time, you know, reading. You can spend a year reading about the thing that you're interested in and trying to figure out if there's a book. Is there something that you're not doing that you really hope that you will get to do someday? You know, I'd like to do more. I'd like to do more TV stuff.

And not because it's not soul-killing, because it is, but just because I feel like I could, and maybe that's the next thing. It's fun, too. It does seem like it's not. It's fun. It does seem like it's not the hardest job, no offense. No. Absolutely none taken.

No, listen. It's like the kind of thing where I do feel like I do cartoon voices. I host game shows. I am a celebrity on game shows. shows. You know, I am a celebrity on game shows and it just, it's the kind of thing where it just, it's the, just the, this wonderful absurdity that I get to do that. I mean, for being like talk show sidekick, uh, game show host, I feel like I should, at some point I'm going to be a TV weatherman, like just, you're working up to it just to get all the weird little niche, you know, broadcasting jobs. That's the start of a lot of resumes, but you want to lead up to it. Yes, exactly.

Finally. I did it. Yeah. I'm a Latter-day Sam champion. And it's exciting. I did the pyramid, the Michael Strahan pyramid. I was watching the Michael Strahan pyramid the other night. I really admired, as a kid, I admired the celebs who were good at that kind of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Because you could tell who was good and who was dumb. Yes. And I'm always like, oh, good. Rosie's good at this. Thank goodness. I bet you're great at pyramids. No, I did very well.

And thank God I didn't screw up the final, you know, like the big money pyramid with she did, the woman. But it was shot in new york i flew out to do it and you're in this studio that you know like that they shot truth or consequences in or what's my line right and you're there are all these you know pictures of like kitty carlisle and joan rivers uh you know up old black and white photos in the hallway. And I just, you really feel like I'm like, I'm a TV guy. Like I'm like a, you know, it's just, it's this, it's this, it's totally exciting fulfillment of a real like childhood.

Not necessarily that I was sitting there like someday I'm going to be on, you know, on match game. But that is what the culture does to you. You know, you like just being raised American is like, like being on TV is some kind of apotheosis. Yes. It's almost a religious thing. Yes.

And it's true too. They still, they still are, at least nowadays, I think there was probably a time where they didn't, but they still try and pour the booze down you. Is that right? Oh, yeah. On Pyramid? Not on Pyramid. I think they did have drinks, but the one, it was Match Game,

the Alec Baldwin Match Game. Oh, like that show's funnier if everybody's a little sloshed? Holy moly. Mine, you know, because they tape three in a day. Yeah. And I was on the first one. And we got there, and it was like nine o'clock in the morning and the the segment producer that you know gives us the sort of pep talk rundowny kind of thing is like and don't

forget there's the bar the bar is open and and everyone's like it's nine o'clock and he's like and they're and really almost like like, don't forget the bar. There's a bar over there. Help yourself to the bar, by the way. And I'm like, all right, give me a Bloody Mary, I guess. And that's probably the match game way dating back 40 years. Oh, I talked to, I once talked to a guy that was a, and now he's, I think he works for a network, but he was a production assistant. And like, he used to have to go across and it's still there at the corner of Alameda and Olive.

There's a little liquor store and he used to go there and he used to buy two bottles of vodka for, I think it was George Goebbels and his like manager friend. Two, like, and I think they were handles of vodka. And they would go through the whole thing. And they'd tape five of them a day, go through the whole thing. And this was on Match Game. And I've heard so many stories that just – and when you watch Match Game, now you realize, oh, they're all fucking drunk.

Like Richard Dawson can barely sit up. All drunk, yeah, yeah. And that was just kind of like, that was the culture. But they do it too. You know, Jane Lynch's TV game night. Is that what it's called? Yeah.

Same thing. Have a drink. Open bar. Here's a drink. Put a drink in front. You know, they just, I think it just loosens people up.

And I did get, and it gives you good, it makes it fun where like, because Judy Greer is a friend of mine and she was on all three of the shows on that day. And, you good, it makes it fun where like, because Judy Greer is a friend of mine and she was on all three of the shows on that day. And, you know, and we were kind of like, because we're friends, we were sort of like, you know, hanging out together. And she, I think she got a Bloody Mary, I got a Bloody Mary. And then she met up with me and my wife later.

We were at a meeting with a bunch of friends down on the Lower East Side. And she came in and she was so fucking drunk. So drunk that she was just like, I have been drinking vodka all day. Just because they just kept feeding her and feeding her and feeding her. I wonder if lives were literally shortened by the match game. What did that do to how many livers were ruined? Exactly right. and feeder and feeder. I wonder if like lives were literally shortened by the match game. By the match game. Like what did that do to. Right.

How many livers were ruined. Exactly right. With that skinny microphone. And then the other thing that was really great was Neil deGrasse Tyson was on and he wanted a glass of wine and the bartender said, well, what would you like? He goes like, I'd like to try them. And he's like, well, which one? And he's like, all of them.

It was like 10. He stood there and sampled 10. And it's like, Neil, we got a show to tape. But he had to sample all 10. It was exactly what you want out of your Neil deGrasse Tyson. Exactly. Just persnickety, time-wasting, like, oh, boy. You know.

Well, we're getting near the end here. And the final question is the what have you learned? I mean, do you, you know, what's the point of Ken Jennings' life? That's a great question. Well, I mean, it's kind of it. I can't imagine an audience wanting to hear, but like, it's certainly what I spend most of my days and especially nights. Yeah, yeah. Tossing and turning, thinking. I always think of it, I mean, I think of it sort of like, what is the meaning of your life? And also kind of like, what, you know, what's the main thing that you, it's an advice kind of thing.

Like, what do you think, you know? You know, the crossroads I'm at now, and maybe I think you'll identify with this, and maybe the legion of kind of mopey dads like us that is listening, is my kids need me less now. You know, my kids are 16 and 12. Yeah, mine, 18 and 13. So maybe you're sympathizing with me in that, like, I kind of feel like I didn't mean to, but I kind of made being a dad my full-time job. Yeah.

Because you kind of have to. Like, in my case, I felt like I was pretty good at it. Yeah. And, you know, my kids still like me. Don't get me wrong. But like, I am not I was pretty good at it. Yeah. And, you know, my kids still like me. Don't get me wrong. But, like, I am not a full-time dad anymore. They do not need a, you know, ringmaster, cajoler, referee kind of guy. And that's healthy.

It is. And necessary. And they have to, like, they have to leave you behind. It's exactly what has to happen. And it seems to be a very gentle, healthy process in this case. Maybe it's compared to my adolescence and maybe his dad before him. I don't know. But my dad before me and then his dad before him.

But it's hard on me because what am I now if not a dad? Yeah. And that's kind of an identity thing. And so really what's next for me? What have I learned? I mean, I've learned that that is the most important thing. I did not, I feel like I didn't misspend those years. I feel like I helped turn out two pretty cool people.

Yeah. And that's more important than anything else I could have done. And I'm glad I had the privilege of having that time because I know a lot of people don't. I've learned like on a career angle, or I guess like a what do you do with your life angle, I've learned that I think I sold out too young when I said, you know what?

I like to write, and I'm good at it, but my friend has an internet startup, and he will pay me money. Maybe 24 years old is not the time to shut down all your hopes and dreams and go to work for your friend's soulless internet startup, you know? Like, I knew that wasn't my thing. Like, I knew trivia was my thing. Like, why wasn't I trying to find something that, like, actually respected a talent that I had, you know?

Such as, I mean, at that time, what will – That's tricky. Like, it really – I had to – Like, rather than go into this work on your friend's startup, what did you think, this is what I want to do? Maybe write something where I could write or teach. Why was I not treating a talent I had as something sacred? Why was I just saying, what will pay the bills? And maybe a generation is coming up that is never going to be able to think about the first thing

because of what we did to the economy. I don't know. But while you're young, I think that is the time to think, what is it that makes me me? What are the things that I can do that some people can't do? And how do you build a life around that? And the fact that I kind of had to create my niche, I think that is something that is going to resonate in this economy going forward. You know,

like what, what is it about you that makes you indispensable? Can you can answer trivia questions? That's not a job, but like, is it adjacent to one? Could you, could you make it into one? Figure out something. Yeah. Like, you know, now that gatekeepers are less important, can you, could you get out there and, and, and be that guy and see if the world beats its path to your door yeah it doesn't always happen but but sometimes it does and your 20s is definitely the time to to take a shot absolutely you know i always uh you know you got 30 years to screw up really i really do feel like you should like the to put pressure on

yourself i mean yeah you got to make a living know, you don't want to live in your parents' basement and stuff like that. But I've always felt like you got plenty of time. My son's 16 and he's feeling it now and he's petrified. You try to talk to him about college and majors and, you know, where, you know, and he's not, he's 16. He's not equipped to like. Yeah. And I really do tell him, you don't have to figure this out. Nobody knows. Absolutely. Like weirdos know, you don't have to figure this out. Absolutely. Nobody knows.

Absolutely. Like weirdos know, I think. Yeah. You know, like the, but, you know, you are not some driven Reese Witherspoon in a movie kind of, here's what my life's going to be character. Yeah. You know, you can, you've got decades to figure it out. Well, and I, you know, my son, he just graduated from high school, and he had a real rough time this year, kind of just senioritis and had a hard time just getting all of the work done that he needed to get done.

And at one point I told him, and it kind of was a disingenuous thing, but I told him, I said, if this is too rough, I said, take some time off. Stop. off. I said, take some time off, stop. I said, if you stop now and you take a year off and you go get a job, I said, I'm fine with that. And I said, and if you're worried about going to college and you don't want to go to, don't go to college. And he told me later, he said, it broke my heart when you told me that. And I kind of told him, yeah, that was the point. I wanted you told me that and i was and i kind of told him like yeah that was the point i wanted you to say i said because while i was being completely honest like i wouldn't care if you said you just like if you said i'm gonna go get a retail job and figure myself out i wouldn't that's fine with me i don't you know and your love's not conditional on no no and i don't yeah

and i don't and i also don't worry i don't he's. And I don't, and I also don't worry. I don't, he's going to be fine, you know. And also, I think too, my worry, you know, it's like my wife, you know, has a fear of flying and I, and she gets, she'd get mad at me for not having a fear of flying. And I'd say, yeah, but my worry isn't going to keep the plane in the air. Yeah, but my worry isn't going to keep the plane in the air. And it's the same thing with children. Your worry isn't going to ensure their success. I mean, and especially when they get to a certain age, it's their life. He's 18. It's his life, you know. But, you know, I truly did mean that.

You know, I don't care if you just go get a job. But I also was kind of saying like, because one of the, I kept saying, I said, look, if doing your homework is too much of a problem. Is that a hassle for you? I was being a dick. And I, cause I kept saying like,

but if this homework is too much, you know, and then, you know, and I told him, I said, no, I just was like trying to tell you like,

Kate, it's homework. Just chill out and do it. Hopefully this will not be the hardest thing you ever have to do. But I very much relate to what you're saying. Because I, yeah, being a husband and a father has sort of been my, you know, I truly do mean this. I'm on television. And like I say, I've been lucky to have this career. But none of that matters that much compared to –

It really doesn't. It's just – I mean, it's a great gig. It's easy, fun. It's ridiculous that I get to have as much fun and make as much money doing the things that I love to do. doing the things that I love to do. But the real, but my real identity and my real, like, where I truly am is in being a dad and a husband.

And I'm actually going through a divorce right now. So that's, I'm at a huge crossroads where I, I mean, I'm where you're at, but like just amped up even more because my kids are not needing me. And now I'm all of a sudden, I'm alone. And learning to be alone for me is like, I've never been good at that. I am 100% the same way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's the great thing about marriage is you don't have to face that. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Well, anyway, that's another podcast. That's my new podcast called Drear, called It's a Bummer with Andy Richter. But the thing about the thing that makes you special is like it doesn't have to be a job either, you know? Like in this new economy, maybe the thing you love to do or the thing that you think makes you a little special little snowflake, it might not be a full-time gig. Yeah. It, you know, it might just be the thing that gives your life meaning.

You know, you sing with friends or you sing karaoke or you sing at church or, you know. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it doesn't matter if you're on American Idol or not. You know, like it'll still give your life meaning. Don't, you know, don't leave that aside. Yeah. Make things. Be creative.

Absolutely. Do art. Well, Ken, this has been a wonderful hour and plus. And thank you so much for coming out. And I'm glad to know you. I had such a good time, Andrew. Thank you. What a delight.

All right. Well, thank you for listening, everyone. We will check in with you again soon with the three questions. Bye-bye. I've got a big, big love for you. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco and Earwolf production. It's produced by me, Kevin Bartelt, executive produced by Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco,

and Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, associate produced by Jen Samples and Galit Zahayek, and engineered by Will Becton. And if you haven't already, make sure to rate and review The Three Questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.