The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Rhea Butcher

Episode Date: December 24, 2019

Comedian Rhea Butcher chats with Andy Richter about the Midwestern ethos, coming to grips with heritage, their years-long coming out story, and trying not to take ‘truth in comedy’ too literally. Plus, Rhea talks about learning how to give advice by asking for it.

Hello, Three Questions listeners. It's time for another episode of the Three Questions with Andy Richter. And I am very thrilled to have with me Rhea Butcher. What's up, Andy? How are you, Rhea? I'm good. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to have you. I trolled you to get on the Rhea Butcher. What's up, Andy? How are you, Rhea? I'm good. It's great to be here. I'm so happy to have you.

I trolled you to get on the podcast. You did. I mean, it was a soft-hearted, open troll, but I also realized it maybe didn't look that way on the internet. First of all, I'm very hard to offend. Cool. Especially someone that I love, and I love you. I love you too, Andy.

And you were already on a list. I appreciate that. Anyway, you know, when I started this thing, they were like, who do you want to talk to? And so far it's been great because I've really only talked to people that I want to talk to. That's cool. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's a great starting place. Yeah, if it goes on, I'm going to start to get to those.

People you don't want to talk to. Well, not don't want to talk to, but just perhaps a little less enthused. Sure. About talking to. And then maybe that leads to the people you don't want to talk to. You know what I mean? And then you're like, wow, I had a great time talking to those people. I have.

That's true. I could. Yeah. But it's a, it's a journey. It's not, you can't cut around it. From my experience of being on a talk show. Sure. The people that, I mean, cause there are people that were like, oh, that guy.

Yeah, right. And very rarely, oh, that's not entirely true. Sometimes it's like, you know, that was pretty good. Yeah. You know, but usually it's like, oh, yeah, that dry turd was a dry turd. Yeah, you can't really moisten a dry turd. Well, you can. You can.

Yeah. It's still a turd. It's hard. Yeah, it's still a turd. Yeah, you can't really moisten a dry turd. Well, you can. You can. It's still a turd. It's hard. It's still a turd. It's hard. It's a more palatable turd at that point. Maybe. I mean, depending on your tastes. And depending on your saliva. Yes, that's right. Well, you are a Midwesterner. I am, yeah. Yeah, me too.

And I have talked a lot on this podcast about just Midwestern ethos and how it carries through your life and i mean that's interesting yeah how do you it's it's funny to hear it to like the way it's it's hitting me today is like i'm realizing that i don't know that i that i had a midwestern ethos that was presented necessarily but it's like one that you grow up within, you know, and it's constantly changing. Yes.

And I think what's wild is there's a Midwestern ethos and then each tiny microcosm of region, plus then family, plus then individual, every single one is slightly different, you know? Yes, exactly. Because I'm from Akron, Ohio. I mean, anybody listening to this because I'm on the show knows it. One time somebody was like, when are you going to shut up about being, I was like, never?ron, Ohio. I mean, anybody listening to this because I'm on the show knows it. One

time somebody was like, when are you going to shut up about being, I was like, never? Yeah, yeah. Because I'm never not going to be from there. Right, exactly. And so like, you get to just not listen. Yeah, yeah. Or not care. You know, like it's not. When I was in college, I took a, and it was my freshman, and I took a junior anthropology class.

It was like a study of human celebrations, basically. Sure, that's cool. And yeah, except for the professor, I was in over my head as a freshman in this. There were a lot of like grad students even in the class. And there was one point where I was talking about, we were talking about, you know, what, what different community gatherings say about a group of people. And I said, I was going to talk about the 4th of July because our 4th of July and my town was, you know, like a Norman Rockwell thing from sun up to sun down. And I said, well, I'm from a very small town. And the fucking professor went, yes, we know.

Wow. I was like, fuck you, dude. Woof. And your two watches. He wore a watch on each wrist. Well, this one I wear because when I swim, I do my laps with this one, and then this one is the one that I tell time. You tell time what? You know what I mean?

What do you say to time? He was a very smooth genius in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. Sure, right, yeah. We all know how we end up where we end up. Yeah. That's so dumb. Fourth of July, that's an interesting one. Because my experience of Fourth of July was that that was like the one holiday that I consistently spent with my dad.

Yeah. Because they split up at what age? I was like zero. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was the whole time. They were together for three years before I was born. And no other kids or just you?

No. Okay. Just me. Just me. Just this one. Yeah. So then when I tell people I'm an only child, they're like, look at you. I'm like, no, no, no.

This was not like. Yeah. This was. You weren't doted on. This was a different thing. You weren't doted on. I would say that I was, but not in the way that you think. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's the same thing with the Midwestern ethos. Yeah. It's like we all come in with a story of what we think that thing means when, you know, like that guy's telling like we I know this story. Yeah. It's like we haven't I know this story. Yeah, yeah. It's like, you haven't even heard it yet. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I used to spend Fourth of July with him and like, you know, shoot one time, it

was all shooting off fireworks, like hillbillies. Yes. That kind of, not Norman Rockwell, the other side of it or whatever, but we had some smoke bombs and like threw one and it caught all the pine needles on fire. And my dad and I looked at each other and neither of us was wearing shoes. And then my cousin had shoes on, so he had to go put it out. Go stomp on it. He was like 13, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that was my, that's like my Midwestern. Yeah. This is like blow some shit up. Yep, yep. Oh, no, that's the same thing. Oh, yeah, same thing. Yeah.

Somebody, there was one particular night where, because we had to go to Indiana to get fireworks. Right. Or Wisconsin, I think you could get them too. And we had a ton of them. Like, one of my brother's Buick Century was from the hood to the trunk, just like a fireworks display. Yeah. And like, I came out of the house and somebody had just lit a bottle rocket and just tossed it.

Yeah, so it missed my eye by inches. Yeah. And- I almost had a Roman candle was on a picnic table and somebody lit it. And as it was about to shoot, it fell over at me. Yeah. And I had, it was like 1991.

So of course I had like a Jodie Foster haircut and it just hit the bottom of my Jodie Foster bob. And singed it? Just flew right past me. And it was like, I could just feel the hair move. Yeah, yeah. That was a close one. No, this one, I could feel the heat from it

on the side of my face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there was such a cloud of smoke hanging over. And our house had been a farm, but it was no longer a farm. So our driveway was that big center area that a farm has. Yeah. And we saw car lights coming down the driveway. And somebody said, like, who's that?

And I said, probably the sheriff. And it was the sheriff. And it was. You know, and we're there. Beers. We're all 16, probably. Beers. Just, like I said, like a fireworks store.

Right. Laid out. And he just got out and like, imagine I don't have to tell you guys why I'm here. No, sir, you don't. So we just went to somebody else's house. Right, of course. And lived further off the road. Just moved down.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And endangered ourselves. Yeah. But yeah, that is, the Midwestern thing, I do think, like, there are, to generalize, I think that there's sort of a lack of pretension. There's this sort of, oh, I always call it a don't toot your own hornism.

Sure. Which has a dark side. Oh, absolutely. Of don't ever be proud of yourself. Yes, absolutely. Don't ever. Don't toot your own hornism. Sure. Which has a dark side of don't ever be proud of yourself. Yes, absolutely. Don't feel good. Don't feel good. Yep. Like you could do better. Yep.

And you're already not doing enough. Right. And like, so just put your head down and like power through it. If you are doing good, why do you have to own it? Yeah, exactly. Why do you have to own it? Yeah. Yeah.

It's like people are always like, people are so nice in the Midwest. And I'm like, are they? Are they? No. They are. Yeah. That's not to it. Yeah, yeah. There's a... People are always like, people are so nice in the Midwest. And I'm like, are they? Are they? No. They are. Yeah. That's not to say that they are not. It's just that there is a bit of like, it's like getting out ahead of you hurting me.

Yeah. So I'm going to do this nice thing and I'm going to expect that you, A, give me something back and also B, I know you're not. So I'm mad that I'm doing this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm also mad that I'm treating you nicely, which is a little Canadian. Yes, it is.

It is. Touch Canadian. There's a lot of – Scott Thompson, I just talked to him, and there's a lot of overlap. Oh, yeah. In – you know, when I first went to Canada as an adult, I went a bunch as a kid, and I didn't even know anything. Sure, no idea.

But when I went as an adult, I was like, oh, my God, this is just Wisconsin. Yeah, there's so much. It's an entire country of Wisconsin. Of Wisconsin. Yeah. Yeah. And I found that to be in New Zealand, too. Oh, yeah.

I worked in New Zealand for a few months and it felt very Wisconsin-y. Sure. Everyone was very sturdy and beer drinkers and into football. But it was a different kind of football. Different kind of football. Fleece wearing, you know? Yeah. Like I went to.

Different kind of fleece. Yeah. Well that and, but I mean, but also, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. But I went to the Auckland Derby, which is Derby. That's just how they say it, which is like Auckland's elite and Auckland's elite. It looked like Milwaukee's elite. Like I was expecting sure you know

like glamour and it was no it was just like it was like rich thick people you know and i was like man i love it here yeah and they have they have a phrase down there that i think is the best for don't toot your own horn called tall poppy syndrome have you ever ever heard of that? No. That in your garden, just for a pleasing effect, you want all your poppies to be the same height. So if one grows too tall, you cut its head off. Yeah, right. And they say that that's a very Australian, very Kiwi thing. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

I mean, the thing is, like, it's that fine line between, because I'm just even thinking, like, you just said don't toot your own horn. I'm like, well, then why do you have a horn? You know, like, literally, why do I have a horn if I'm not allowed to toot it? Because I own a TGI Fridays and I hang it on the wall. Right, exactly. So, like, there's a point where the horn is needed, you know, and, like, you get to toot the freaking horn. Yeah.

And also, like, yeah, don't grow too high as a poppy because like being the same height as everybody also has a value when that is what is needed you know like to to work among people and not be like this is about me you know like to know those moments but then to also accept like oh this is about me yeah you know like whether it's good or bad to be able to be in that moment and be like oh i need to put my horn down yeah and i'm gonna listen to the saxophone yeah you know or like do you need my horn yeah you know it's all of that stuff it's not just the one thing and that's i think the midwestern ethos when it's when it had a negative effect on me i'll say to my personal experience was it's only this one thing and it's always this one thing and it can never be something else.

Yeah. Which is like a lot of shit and not just the Midwestern. Oh, a lot of judgmental, shitty shit. Yeah. Like you better fit through this tiny, tiny window, you know, and like, I can't, nobody can. So I'm going to walk through the door. Yeah.

I remember my mom one time listening to, uh, we were that, uh, John Cougar Mellencamp. I was born in a small town. Live and die in a small town? Yeah, that thing. Which is easy when you're John Cougar Mellencamp. Oh, yeah, of course. John Cougar, John Mellencamp. Yeah, yeah, because he's from where my dad taught and still lives in Indiana.

And he does not have the normal small town experience. Yeah. But he said in the line, my mom, he said, and I think it was the first time she heard the song. He said something about people in a small town, let you be who you want to be. And she just said, bullshit. No fucking way. Is that true?

Yeah. Like, no, they want you to be who they want you to be. Yeah. Right. And you, yeah. And you can't, that's why that's you saying that I've like, I don't know that I've ever heard that line. Yeah. Probably. And you, yeah. And you can't, and that's why. That's you saying that. I've like, I don't know that I've ever heard that line. Yeah.

Probably for like self-preservation. No shit. To not like have my brain explode when I listen to it. Well, I do. But like, I mean, Akron is like, it's wild because I know when I say like, oh yeah, it's a small town. At the same time, it's not because it's someone else's big city. Yeah. The last time I was there was so like, it was, it was one of the first times

that I went back and just like genuinely, and some of it is me and some of it is the place. It's a little bit of both, you know? I went back and was like, oh wow, this is cool. Because I like could not wait to get out of there. Like I talk about how much I love that place because it's because I don't live there anymore and I don't hate it. It's just like that. It's my relationship to my experience period. It doesn't matter that it's that place. It's like coming to love parts of yourself or whatever. And like when the generation that I happen to be of and also just just me, I was like, I don't know. I don't know how to survive. I don't know how to get by. I don't know how to be a success. I don't know how to do the things I think I want to do in this place. Like when I got out of college, the only job I could get was as a barista in a Seattle's Best inside of a Borders Books and Music. And it was a great job. I'm not shitting on it, but I was just like, I'm going to work retail for the rest of my life because I also didn't know what to do. It wasn't, I thought it was the town, but it was also me. I didn't know what to

do. And like, I had to get out to learn what that was. And then when I went back, I was hosting a film festival that a friend had put on. It was really fun. It was all like little five minute shorts that people made about Akron. I just did that in air quotes. You could probably hear it, but you can't see it. And each one was like, they were so, the interpretations of that were so wonderful to see. And just to see all that was really cool. And as I was, I was like waiting for it to start and someone that I didn't have as a professor, but knew, knew generally, and we're kind of like pals through the internet. And when I, when I go back, I run into him sometimes. He like was coming in, he was like, God, there's just so much going on. I feel, I I can't even do all the things. He'd just been in Cleveland, did an art opening, and then there's

this thing and this thing. And there's just stuff happening all the time that's generally cultural in Akron and Cleveland because they're very close to each other, but distinctly very different places. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. I'm glad that that's happening. And he's like, yeah, there's just all these kids moving in from, like, Amish country and rural areas because they see all this opportunity. And I was like, wow. Wow. Wow. Like, I, you know, there's many interpretations of that, but it's like, I couldn't see that.

And there weren't those same opportunities. It's 10, 15 years later. It's a different place than it was when I was there. But thank God, you know, and like it is that place is someone else's big city with a bunch of opportunity. Yeah. And an affordable one that you could come from rural Pennsylvania and have, I don't know, a thousand dollars in your pocket and like make something of yourself and then stay there or move on or whatever. And have a creative life. And have a creative life. And have a creative life.

Yeah. That's something that has always been in Akron. It's just like whether it's being, whether it's getting the sunlight and air that it needs and Miracle-Gro or whatever. Yeah. And that's the thing about Akron that runs through is like, you can actually have a creative life there. Yeah.

It's just that you can't be famous for it. But also we have the internet now, so you kind of could. Yeah, you can, absolutely. Like one of my favorite authors lives there. His name's David Giffels, and he wrote a book called The Hard Way on Purpose. And that is the Midwestern ethos that I grew up with, because there's many, that's a kaleidoscope of a phrase. And like his book, it's a bunch of essays. He has a couple other books that are also fantastic. And I feel like I'm reading a mirror when I, even though we're different people. Yeah.

Like I see so many similarities in them and his experience, but like in that one in particular, I was like, oh my God, like, cause we grew up in the same place and I read these. I'm like, I know what he's, where he's talking about, but people in Akron specifically, and I'm sure in other places, this is also the case, but this is where I grew up. We do things the hard way on purpose, whether that's good or bad. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's awful. And what's the, what do you think the motivation behind that? Since it is sort of like, if it's a collective urge, where do you think that comes from? I mean, I think that it comes from, I think that it's in some of this is probably borrowing from David, but like

that town, it existed, it had canals and then those canals broke down. And then during like the industrial revolution, all those things, the vulcanization of rubber was invented there. Yeah. So not rubber, but like what kept, what bound the ions or atoms or molecules or whatever to keep rubber together. Because before that, rubber was just a hard substance that you put on tires or that you made tires out of, and it would fall apart. And it made everything disgusting also. Everything was black.

There was soot from the tires. And so whoever, F.A. Seiberling or whoever he hired, whatever woman he hired to figure out, like, I don't know that that's the case. We don't know that it isn't. It sounds good. Yeah, it sounds good. Person of color, woman, whatever, you know, whatever, that actually invented it. It then, they were bound together and you could make tires that were inflatable and then that you still had to replace them, but they weren't like falling apart.

You could put a tread into them. Yeah, you could put a tread into it and then steel belted radials and all that stuff. But when that came up, then Akron became the rubber capital of the world. And I, in, in being so immersed in that city, have been like, yeah, it's the rubber city and never thought about the fact that I'm literally going like it's condom town. It's just, I never thought about it. But, uh, so then all these rubber companies sprung up there and it became that. And then everything in the city was around that industry. So like to the extent that if you were a lawyer, you were a lawyer for one of the companies, like literally everything. And then, so there were a lot of mechanic shops and trucking companies were there. And like,

that's what my grandfather moved from West Virginia, on my dad's side, moved from West Virginia to Akron to work, you know, in the same way that I moved from Akron somewhere else to work with five bucks in my pocket, which was more because it wasn't 1940. But my whole long point is that that is the reason why I think that the hard way on purpose is like all of that. It's hard work making tires. Yeah. Hard work. And then in the 70s, that industry just literally left. It just up and moved. Yeah. To cheaper pastures. Overseas. Overseas, but also just other parts of the country. Yeah. Like I think they're headquartered in like Nashville partially now, but like, yeah, overseas. In the 70s, not NAFTA, because I grew up hearing NAFTA was the problem, but it had already started in the 70s.

And so then everything was hard. Because you take that industry out that everything is built on, what do you do? And so then it's really hard. Well, I'm going to do it harder because I might as well. I'm going to do it harder than you're as well. I'm going to do it harder than you're telling me it has to be because I need to learn something, you know, but it truly is like hard work, you know, it's just like, and it's called, it's the rust belt. So what's harder than something that's rusty, trying to get that moving again. I mean, I really think that's what

it is. It's the hard way on purpose, because if I don't do it hard, it's not going to break free. Yeah. It's just not going to do it. Yeah, and I also think there is an air of superiority in the Midwest because we're there. We're not going anywhere, mostly. You know, that's kind of like, that's part of it. It's like, yeah, go to New York, go to LA. Why would you do that?

You know, all those people and all that fall are all just stay here. I've got everything I need. It ain't good enough for you. Yeah. And that's all judgment. That's all judgment. That's all chip on your shoulder. Yeah, it's all based in fear.

If I do that, it's not going to work out. So I'm going to make it not work out for you. Well, and, you know, the second city is that's that becomes a, you know, something you wear with pride. It's an insult. You know, it's like an insult. It's like this is the second city. And it wasn't just that it was a second city. I don't think I think it was originally because of New York. Well, it was because of the fire.

Yeah. Oh, right, right. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that thing. Yeah, that thing. It was because they rebuilt it so it was the second version.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, yeah. Well, never mind. But also, but it becomes, it's the eye of the beholder. So many, I mean,

I had that interpretation of it too. Does it mean that interpretation that you were saying doesn't exist? Yeah. That's what I always thought it was. Right. But now when you say the fire, like, oh yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Because isn't it wild how distance from things makes them fall away and then the new interpret and then you're like, well, because, okay, I have a great example. The term redneck is not actually it originally just for like racist white people or Southern white people

or whatever interpretation it is today which is also the true i'm not saying it's not that yeah because that's what the way people use it right yeah the word the words meaning changes and that does it doesn't make it but it originally was a was a nickname and a name potentially a slur towards but also just the name of um striking coal miners in Kentucky and in West Virginia because they wore red neckerchiefs around their necks when they were striking. Oh, wow. For labor rights.

Wow. So that's where it comes from. Yeah, yeah. And what's interesting is- See, I always thought it was because you're a farm laborer and you get a sunburn on your neck. Which also makes sense. But the original, the etymology of it is that. And that actually isn't only because we just have an interpretation of coal miners being white.

Yeah. And it actually was a very racially diverse job when coal mining was at its, like, biggest peak. Yeah. We just don't have that history because why would we? Right. Because then it would remove a story in a narrative that works for both sides right right well and also too it's like okay that's the that's the origination of the word but that's not how you learn it that's not what it means that's

not what we all mean when we're talking about so the origin the origination is like it's a curiosity sure it's not you know but but now you know it. Yeah, yeah. That's true. No, I know, I know. Oh, yeah. What I mean is now that it's still alive. Yes. And so that doesn't mean I'm not going to like hear that word and go, well, it means

that I go, okay, both of these things, they coexist just like a black and a white coal miner. Yeah. So now I think of that when I think of those things and that lives on. Yeah. And so what am I going to do with that? Right. Not anything big.

I'm just going to hold it inside and remember that. Yeah. And think about it. Well, and also, I mean, it. Nothing is concrete. You're not the kind of person that would be using pejorative anyway, really, you know. Sure. About working people.

So it's like you're not really, you know, giving up much. Well, what do you mean by that? I mean, like the notion that the phrase redneck, I should speak for me personally. Sure. Like I wouldn't use that. I wouldn't say like, oh, those fucking rednecks. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

So the fact that it is from something that's kind of, but that's, you know, but what it means is those fucking rednecks. You know what I mean? Sometimes they're like, no, I'm a redneck. And what does that mean? And they love that. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't always mean something bad, I guess. Yeah.

Well, it depends on what side of it you're on. Yeah. And you don't always know what somebody's side is when they simply say that. And like what I'm saying is it's all a lot of story. Yeah. And like all those stories exist. I'm not defending behavior i'm actually saying like oh i know that yeah oh yeah i want to say it for the people okay i know

you know that but like everything is open to interpretation luckily my tone of voice is happening in this thing yes but sometimes when things are typed out it's like wow that doesn't sound like what i meant at all absolutely but uh yeah i mean i guess like i don't have a concrete explanation for what I'm getting at, and that's the point. Yeah. Is that, like, these things that we think are true to us because we think them, but it's not the truth.

It's not the absolute truth of anything. The only truth, yeah. Right. Like, I, and I've been saying this, this is nothing new. I mean, I, like, used to, I guess this is what it gets to is like, there was a big part of me that disregarded this, like that I'm from, like my family is from Appalachia. Like I'm not from there. I don't claim to be from West Virginia.

I went one time. I'm also not like some city slicker that's like, ew, blah, blah, blah. Like I was raised by people from there who weren't living there, but that is there in my life. Like there were is there in my life. Yeah. Like there were dirt floors in my life. And that was something that as a child, I wasn't going like, oh, what's wrong with it? I like, that was part of my life.

And like, yes. You had relatives within your lifetime that had dirt floors. Yes. Wow. I had relatives within my lifetime that did not have indoor plumbing. Wow. And like had gold teeth and shit like that. Wow. And like had gold teeth and shit like that. Wow.

And so then the, you know, the people that weren't around that were older than them existed within that. You know, so it's like it's a constant. And I was in between these two worlds being this child of divorce in that way. Yeah. And so like there was, I was perceived by some people as having a silver spoon. And then it's like, is that true? Yes, kind of. But also if you really look at like, not at all. But also it's true for some people.

So my whole thing is like, yes, I have this part of me that's like a hillbilly. Like I eat, hillbillies are not people who eat trash, but me as a hillbilly eats trash. You know, like I love Mountain Dew. Yeah. I grew up drinking it. It's like when I see that, it brings something up in me that feels good. Yeah. And that's like garbage.

Like I know I shouldn't drink it. It's poison. Yeah. It's bad for you. Yeah. But I also don't judge people that drink it because I too drink it. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like it's just, I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with this. Other than it's like just loving all of it. Yeah. Loving the good parts. Right. It's like find the good parts there was I I think too that you that your brain does something like that because you know my last name is German yes and we did not celebrate the German part of it in fact

even like my dad who now as I get older and I see my when when I, I mean, I don't spend a lot of time looking at myself. I don't enjoy it. You know, like on video, video or, you know, like, like seeing pictures of myself and I'll be like, Oh, you know, like that's what I look like. I walk, you know, I just think it's a, you know, I, I, I'm the, believe me, it's not like I think it's like some terrible thing that I need to change. I think it's a pretty garden variety. Sure. Foible. But I've learned that a lot of it, well, you've got to do it. Yeah. Like that inner child stuff is like, yeah. I mean, me too. I look at that and I'm like,

oh God, but like you have to, you don't have to. Finding love for that child that still exists inside of yourself is like a really important thing. I don't, it's a very, well, for me, it's a very surface thing. It's a very surface thing. I don't, it's a very, well, for me, it's a very surface thing. It's a very surface thing because I do, I love myself plenty. You know what I mean? And I have, and that's taken a lot of work and I've put a lot of work into that. But I do, but to get back to the German part, like as I get older too, I see so much of my dad and I look at myself and I feel like, I look so fucking German.

I look at myself and I feel like I look so fucking German I look so German yeah and there is something to me too about and like I say that was never that was never really celebrated we we had Swedish stuff that we celebrated much more yeah because they were just because there were more relatives that were sort of, honestly, I think World War II. Sure. The German Americans are like, let's keep that kind of, yeah. Right. And the Swedes, there's no reason to be ashamed of your fruit soup and your lutefisk and your handicrafts. Because my dad's side, like I legit, I don't know what the actual, like, the ancestor, where

the whiteness of me comes from. You know what I mean? Because it's like, I'm not going to, I literally am, like, from the whitest people. Like, there's no uniqueness to it other than, like, oh, I know on my mom's side, it's, like, Scottish and Irish. That's it. You ever going to do the DNA thing? No, because I don't want to give people my DNA.

More people than they already have. And I don't, that's just why I'm not doing it. I understand. And I have nothing against the Mormon church, but it's like all owned by one thing and that scares me. Oh really? Wow. Yeah, it's all the Mormon, like mostly Mormon folks. I don't know if it's the

church that's doing it as an institution, but that's who owns like 23andMe and it's all like sort of Mormon. They love bookkeeping. And I like – I don't – this is not a thing against the church. They're actually pretty – like they're trying. Yeah, they do. They're not – like they've kind of gotten lumped in with evangelicalism, especially within like LGBTQ issues.

And I don't think there's some progressive thing either. I don't actually have an opinion. I'm just saying like I don't want any one thing to have my... I get it, yeah. More so than it already has, because it definitely, somebody's got my DNA somewhere. I tend to roll over on things like that. Yeah, I mean, it is what it is.

Or, you know, like, people sounding the alarm about the physical, owning physical media. You know, like, soon, all those, you know, songs you paid for. Yeah, right. I'm like, I i got so much other shit to worry about did you see the the newer blade runner 2029 or whatever when it's like just a one second thing when they're like we lost all this stuff he's like going to research in the thing anyway i really i really love that movie but that's another podcast um my point was oh yeah

my dad's side i've done the free amount on Ancestry.com that you can do. And I used to have like a bit about it that I like hit the wall. But I went, it goes back pretty far and it's just straight up all West Virginia. So like they've been here a long time, which probably isn't great. Yeah. But I also don't know that it's awful. And I just literally don't know. So the only thing I can do is be good today.

But my dad is just so like we're German which is such a funny opposite version of what you're saying and we're not because I've researched the etymology of the last name butcher because it's a weird one not that many people have it and it's actually French oh really it doesn't make sense yeah yeah exactly it doesn't have any any German roots in it doesn't mean I don't have German roots. It just means like I don't think as much as you want it to be because like I don't really like how much you're gravitating towards that. Right, right. There's nothing wrong with being German in 2019, but I know why you're saying it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't, I disagree, but I'm going to leave. Right. Have a good one. Yeah, yeah. I love you for who you are, and I'm going to go. Well, I've always. Not be like that. Yeah. I mean, to leave. Right. Have a good one. I love you for who you are and I'm going to go. Well, I've always. Not be like that.

Yeah. I mean, just to your mountain dew point. To the best of my ability. To your mountain dew point. I always was like. To the point of mountain dew. Yes. To your mountain dew point.

Right. Meteorology. I like German food. I always feel like schnitzel and all of that, you know, beef rouladen and stuff. I feel like it's like somehow like touching on my DNA. Yeah. And it's all me. It's all nonsense.

Because when I did the DNA thingy. Yeah. And I'm mostly English. Oh, wow. I'm almost half English. Andy, it's just a word. I know. I know. I know. Isn't that crazy? I know. it's just a word i know i know i know isn't that crazy i know it's a fucking word i know i know and all those people like to say like you're you know they when you do those two they're like central europe yeah because belgium yeah

dutch yep french german yeah they all kind of you know everybody kind of moved around yeah yeah so generally caucasian yes no that's i that's i always say when people ask if i've done that Kind of, you know, everybody kind of moved around. Yeah, yeah. So. Generally Caucasian. Yes. No, that's why I always say when people ask if I've done the DNA thing, I'm like, yeah, I'm from Europe. Right, yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I'm from Europe. Sure. I'm just, I'm white.

I'm pretty fucking white. I'm pretty white. Yeah. can't you tell my loves are growing so um we talk about we know we're talking about a small town and i imagine uh it wasn't easy you know you you are a gender non-binary yeah and i bet that was pretty fucking hard great job yeah i mean it's like, I mean, it's a whole thing. You know, it's so funny. Somebody was saying to me last night, because I've recently posted on Instagram, like my mom had sent me some new photos that she found.

New photos that she found. Just want to make sure I enunciate that. I think I saw some. They're like you as a darling little child. Yeah. Yes. And I do appreciate you saying child right there, it's just, it's funny, right? Yeah.

It's funny. Like somebody saw that and I was having dinner at their house and they're like, it's so wild because you were such a girly girl. And I was like, I know Matt, but I wasn't. Yeah. Like you see, and he's like, well, and I wasn't, I didn't mean to use his name, but it doesn't matter. Way to go, Matt.

I wasn't offended that he said that yeah i thought it was intriguing and interesting yeah and and how curious that and he's like well yeah i guess it was a photo i was like yeah exactly right it's like this in in the photo is worth a thousand words like it creates a story in your mind of like oh well rio was girly and now they're not yeah and it's like no i was always not and then sometimes it's. And it's like, no, I was always not. And then sometimes, it's also like, it's just a haircut. Yeah. And also I had- You don't get to choose your haircut or what clothes you put on.

I had Barbies and I wasn't in that moment, in that photo going, I hate my life, I hate my life. It's like, it's all on a continuum. Yeah. And this is, again, my experience. So I'm not trying to make a blanket statement for everybody, but like, it's so much more general than that. You know, it's like, yeah, it did suck.

But I don't know that it sucked more than if I lived in LA. Yeah. Because it, so many factors go into like who your parents are, who the people in your first class are, who your neighbors are, like all that stuff. Yeah. Who you are, your connection to yourself. It is all just like Yahtzee dice. You know, like, I don't know.

You know, it could have been so much worse. Yeah. It could have been so much better. I don't know. It just was the way that it was. And it got me sitting across the table from you. Yeah. And like, that's not to say that it wasn't hard.

There are things, you know, when I was six, I went into, I like went camping with my dad to like a campgrounds and we were leaving and i had to go to the bathroom so like he he just had a heart he didn't like ever escort me into a restroom it just wasn't part of the thing um and i so i had to go in by myself pretty young and i went into the women's you know it's like one of those campground things so just like a freestanding the doors are on the opposite sides of each other and i went in and there was a janitor in there and he was like what do you think you're like so mad at me and i was a child so like an adult being mad at you is like oh yeah really a lot of like hey you're setting some wrinkles in there and like it messed with me for a long time i mean it's

taken me until you know very recently to fully let go of that. Yeah. That like I was in no control and like, yeah, that was objectively like not a good way to react to a child. And also,

let's really pull back now that I'm an adult and not that six-year-old child and go, that was a man. Yeah. Cleaning the women's restroom. And so he believed

because he had the authority to be in there. Yeah. Which is a mop. Well, yeah. Yeah. And also, like, to then, like, do whatever it was he thought he needed to do with me to tell me what for is, like, oh, that's just messed up. Yeah.

You know? And it had nothing to do with me. Yeah. Rhea. No. It had a lot to do with that guy. Yeah. And I've had that situation happen multiple.

It had a lot to do with that guy. Yeah. And I've had that situation happen multiple, like go, I went into a restroom in like Texas and you know, the guy was behind the door. So I didn't even know it was in there. And I went in and he was like, Hey, and I turned around. I was like, yeah. And he was like, Oh, sorry. But you're a man in the bathroom.

Like you should be going, Oh, I need to leave. That's actually. Women do that. Oh, women do that too. Yeah. It's just a slightly different situation a they're quote supposed to be in there and these but my whole thing is like what does any of it mean then if there's a man in the bathroom cleaning it right you know like

who gives a shit yeah yeah yeah i just want to shit you know but um but i know people give a lot of shits and that's the problem yeah but yeah i mean i've i've felt very unsafe around women yeah because they feel unsafe and that creates like a thing and it's like i mean it's tough who am i who am i to say that i'm not a threat to them i don't know but but that's on them it's not on me yeah so the only thing i can do is just be in that bathroom and like be as kind as i possibly can which i know sounds like rolling over but what what am I going to do? We're in the bathroom. It's actively happening. I go into Dodger Stadium. It's difficult.

I don't know why. Well, yeah, sometimes. I mean, I wear a hat. You mean it's difficult because of what people say or look? Not it's difficult interior, internally. But internally, I've made a lot of progress internally in that I can't change it. The only thing I can do is go in there and be kind. Yeah.

That's literally all that I can do. And I don't hang my head anymore. I don't go in there in fear and in judgment, and I don't predict it. Yeah. You know? And that helps a lot. That's huge. Because it happens less.

Yes. Because I'm not expecting it. Yeah. You know, and that helps a lot. That's huge. It happens less. Yes. Because I'm not expecting it. Yeah. Which seems antithetical because it's like you need to be prepared. It's like, no, my preparation is that I am a good person. Yeah. You know, and like I make mistakes all the time, but like I'm not, I know that my primary purpose to go into this bathroom is to use the bathroom. Yeah.

And so I am walking in with that knowledge that like I am going to be kind bathroom is to use the bathroom yeah and so i am walking in with that knowledge that like i am going to be kind i'll hold the door for somebody i'll do this i'll hand them paper if they don't you know whatever whatever it is and like so i just set an example of of what could potentially move the the thing because if that person comes to me with anger or threatening things or something and it's like they're not brandishing a knife and they're not doing this. It's like, I know that I can roll with that situation by just being like, this is the bathroom I'm supposed to use. Yeah. And like, we can have a conversation.

Yeah. You know, or not or whatever. And I can't control what their response is going to be, but I can just treat their, because it's fear. Yeah. They have anxiety, they have fear, whatever. And the only thing I can do is be like, you don't have anything to be afraid of. Yeah. And again, I can't take it away.

Yeah. But I can be like, this is not a scary thing. Yeah. Which seems like, oh, it's all on you. And it's like, it's all on everybody. Yeah. Well, the whole notion of it, you know, the fact that, and people, you know, everybody likes to bitch about every new thing that they have to deal with. Yeah. Well, the whole notion of it, you know, the fact that and people, you know, everybody likes to bitch about every new thing that they have to deal with.

And they love to complain about making small gestures to make life better for people that aren't them. Yeah. And so there's part of me that's like, why aren't we all going to the same fucking bathroom anyway? Right. It makes a lot of sense from an architectural standpoint. Right. And it's like, come on. And it creates a different kind of herd mentality.

Yeah. But, I mean, I could get into all the – but here's – you were talking about people bitch about having to do something new. Many people who are up in arms about, quote, trans people wanting to use the bathroom have already used the bathroom with many trans people and they have no fucking idea. Yeah, yeah. Because what we're, often what we're talking about is like, it's, when people are saying like transgender bathroom things, it's like, that really is code for transgender people shouldn't exist. Yeah. When it's the conversation. Yeah. Because we're not actually talking about the reality of it.

Yeah. Which is you don't know when it happens. Yeah. You literally don't. Yeah. Because you're in your own world and you're going to the bathroom and you don't care. Yeah. You really don't.

And like we're talking often about, or at least when I'm saying you've already used the bathroom with a trans person, we're talking about people who pass. Yeah. For cis people. Right. We'll say that. To be very specific in my language. And I am not necessarily like a passing person, necessarily. When I go into the bathroom, I don't present as one or the other, and that's what's confusing for people and has been through my life. So, we're kind of talking

about two slightly different but very related things. And I'm not the authority on either of them. I just have my own experience. And so, like, that is the thing that people are unwilling to realize is that you've already had the experience and it was fine. Yeah. You're just trying to project fear and, you know, there's a lot of agendas and a lot of money. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. It's a convenient talking point for a lot of people who want to make more money yeah you know um well and also too the reason that the separate gendered bathrooms exist is because of male predation you know i think that's probably like the beginning of it is that women i don't think it exists for because of that i think it exists because men want to use urinals and they don't want women around when they're. I think it exists because men want to use urinals, and they don't want women around when they're using urinals. See, I think that it was meant to be like you can't trust men in a room where women are removing clothing.

There's nothing. But here's the thing. You know what I mean? From ages and ages ago when we started even gendering bathrooms, which I don't even know. I'm sure somebody. We just pissed outside for a very, very long amount of time. time you know we had piss pots in our room it's interesting like when did we start having gendered bathrooms i have no idea but we separate by gender i'm gonna

google that later yeah the moment people are born yeah and that's not even true it's one of the first things it's one of the first things that i find myself when i look at someone exactly it's like and and it's the thing that makes you you know you walk through a crowd man woman man woman and then there's the person that is non-binary and you're like well like because you're so used to just categorizing and your your uh perception of them yes yeah exactly but it's it it it sticks in your in just your general flow and it's always been like that because that is the experience that i have had, which perhaps was higher in number when I was in the Midwest. Because people, there's less of you.

So the experience of you with other people is less. And I mean, I had people harassing me when I was a kid and mostly other teenagers. So it's like they were going to find something to say. But I cannot tell you the amount of times that people have said, what are you? Yeah. Which is like, that's, it's just, it's horrific. Yeah, what a shitty thing to say but people i i cannot tell you the amount of times that people have said what are you yeah which is like that's it's just it's a horrific thing anything to say yeah a relatable thing it's like it's they found the thing that cuts right inside you know and like yeah what am i i don't know yeah but now i use that as like a month you know now it's like a freeing thing where i'm like what am i yeah i don't feel restricted by the things, you know? Yeah, right, right, right.

And that, too, is why people, when I say people, like cisgender people are so afraid of it. Yeah. Because it questions what gender truly is. Yeah. If you can say, like, no, and to someone else it seems a simple fix of changing clothes, which we all, I know that it is not that yeah like to to have uh to be gender non-conforming gender like non-binary to be a transgender person is not that simple but it also can be and to make it that simple is scary for someone who has like

in some ways maybe taken it for granted or it's been like the thing that they bang the drum about and that's femininity and masculinity it's not like both of those things can be very toxic yeah and to have such a stranglehold on what it means is toxic for everybody yeah oh absolutely i can't make those people let it go any more than they know than they're going to and like they might and they might not but i do know that like my experience of it, of like wearing whatever clothes I like and having whatever haircut I like is like fun, you know? And I've had a lot of people tell me like, well, what do you expect? You know? And like, yeah, I guess you're right. I don't know what I expect. But my expectation now is to be

treated like, the only thing I can do is to treat someone the way that I want to be treated. Yeah. And do I nail that 100%? No. Yeah. But to the best of my ability today. Yeah. Yeah.

Because to act as though I haven't interacted with someone that was gender nonconforming in a way that wasn't shitty would be, I'm definitely not off the hook for that. Yeah. I couldn't tell you a specific. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know what everyone's experience has been. Yeah. You know, every interaction, like somebody walks away from me and going like, that's a fucking asshole.

Yeah. And I think, wow, I was really nice. You know, like you just don't know. No, you never know. But you try to go to bed with your head on the pillow going like, I did the best I could. Yeah. And I, yeah, I'm not in control of all this. Just somebody on, on, on Twitter today, there was a discussion about, about, it was mostly about car shopping and salesmen only speaking to the husband of a, of a male, female couple. And, and I, and I have been,

and I've encountered that, you know, from especially in show business as, you know, as going to show biz parties with my wife and having people just almost completely ignore her. Or, you know, she would talk to them. And I mean, I see it all the time. People heard saying something and them responding and looking at me. And there's part of me that I was like, have I done that? Oh, shit, have I done that? Yeah, probably. And I probably have.

I know I have. I probably have, yeah. I couldn't tell you when. Yeah. But it's at least it's like. It's programming. I'm going to think about it now. Yeah.

You know, a lot more. I mean, I always have been aware of it. And I've always, you know, it's always been uncomfortable. Sure. But it took, it also took somebody who was at the receiving end of that neglect or that being ignored to say, Hey, this is happening. And I go, Oh, okay. Thank you. Now I see. But now, you know, you can't know until you know. Right. Yeah. Right. I mean, what's wild is I was recently in a guitar show. I was there with a friend who is a woman, you know, is a cisgender woman.

Yeah. And then I, you know, read as many things. What's funny is as soon as I was like, hey, I think, you know, I'm non-binary. I go by these pronouns now, they, them pronouns. So many more people interpreted me as like a cis woman, which is so funny. It's like I made a decision and now you guys are like, you know, you're looking pretty. What's up, lady? And I'm like, you know, you're looking pretty. What's up, lady? And I'm like, you got it.

This is wild. Really? Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so much. Maybe I'm hearing it more. I don't know.

It could be either one. But we went into a guitar shop, which is like such a, it's a car dealership. Yeah, yeah. It's like so masculine, whatever. It's very doody. And I've gone in in my life to that place, and it's just like a wild. So I went in, and I have no expectations. Dude with a beard, just a guitar shop looking dude.

You are into indie rock, my sir or whatever. He comes over. He's like, hey, let me know if you guys want to plug anything in. Just come get me. I'll be right over there. Have a good one. And I was like, wow, this is the greatest time to be alive. Yeah.

Like, yes. have a good one and i was like wow this is the greatest time to be alive yeah like yes things and and is is that moment like does that make everything that's bad not relevant no but it means that is possible yeah and i don't know that it would be possible 20 years ago to be the two people that we happen to be looking at guitars in that place and have that guy who he is have that interaction. Yep. That's amazing. It means that many things are possible. Yeah.

Or just going back, just that in the last however many years it's been, that it's increasingly more just standard issue that when you go to a restaurant or you go to it's all gender restrooms yeah like just that's like what a you know what a hopeful thing and we already had them for so long too because restrooms that only have one toilet in them right we're already because like we only have this one bathroom yeah just by sheer numbers alone we have to let everybody into this. But it is, I mean, but at least there's this gesture of saying this will make people who in the past have been made to feel uncomfortable not uncomfortable so much anymore. Sure. There won't be reasons for that guy to go, hey, you. But I mean, I'll tell you this, Andy. I've still had that happen around a bathroom that says that because it doesn't change anything.

That person is still standing there having it. So like, yes, I agree. The gesture is there, but it's like, what if it's never going to not be there? I mean, the gesture will be there, but what if that thing, that's what I came to. What if I'm never going to live a life where I can walk down any street and no one's going to bother me? Yeah, yeah. That is a sheer impossibility. Yeah.

Because if they're not bothering me about my gender, they're going to bother me about something else because they are a person too. Yeah. And I probably just bothered somebody else. Yeah. So when I realized that that stuff all just goes into the same bucket. Yeah. It's not personal. Yeah.

And I can't take it personal. And for me to take it personal is just hurting me. Yeah. And that person is just, like somebody, I was on my way here, and I was on the phone talking to somebody. I had headphones in, and I drive stick, of course. And I was a little, like the tiniest bit not paying attention. And I didn't, somebody changed lanes so fast.

I don't know if they cut me off or not. But it just gave me the feeling that, oh, this accident's happening. And I could not get my foot on the brake fast enough. But nothing happened. And I told the person, they were like, wow, I could tell how close that was. You know, just like, whatever. And I didn't even end up hitting the brakes, but it was this close moment. And I was like, wow. And I like talked it out to them. I wasn't super upset or anything, but my heart was like through my chest. And then I had this moment of like, I could catch up to

them and be like, and give them like, not the finger, but like give them the, what were you doing? But then I realized they probably don't even know that they did that. Yeah. So what would the point of that be? Right. It would just be to make me feel better and I won't feel better. Yeah. So that thing is the same.

It's just two human beings colliding in a moment that happens to suck for one of them. But it also probably sucks for the other one too. Yeah. To like be living that way. So how can I better not live that way? Yeah. Because the tighter I hold onto this stuff, the more it happens. Yeah.

I'm not making it happen, but I'm looking for it. Yeah. And when I stopped looking for it, it didn't happen as much. Yeah. It's like the thing where I'm saying, because I caught myself and I said, as soon as I started identifying like non-binary and they, them pronouns, people started calling me lady and woman more. Are they calling me that more or am I hearing it more? Have I now opened myself up to my feminine spirit side, whatever it is, in accepting in myself that I don't really fit into either one because I can't really control it. And I just kind of exist as the person I am. Have I now just opened up that world more than I ever have?

Yeah. And I don't present any differently. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't reject it. It doesn't feel good to reject like being a woman or having been assigned female at birth or whatever.

Like I don't reject those things. I just don't cling to it either. Yeah whatever. Like, I don't reject those things. I just don't cling to it either. Yeah. You know, I don't. And like, I don't know, it's kind of fun when people call me sir now. You know, like, and obviously there are dangerous situations. But sometimes if it's dangerous and somebody calls me that, I just like nod my head and I get out of there.

Yeah. But also like my perception of danger has changed. I don't walk into every situation thinking that people are out to get me. Yeah. Which is hard. Yeah. Because we're humans and we feel like everybody, that's why we do that. Like woman, man, woman, man.

Because it's like, we're still like mammals. Yeah. We're sorting out the threats. Who's going to hurt me? Who's going to hurt me? And which is, was interesting when you asked me if women were threatening. It's like, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Women are threatening. It it's sometimes different sometimes different yeah but like yeah they it's yeah scary yeah i just feel like i gotta get the hell out of there because i don't know what's gonna happen when you how are your folks your your mom and dad as you were growing up being non-binary were they accepting or are they not so accepting? Well, I mean, I wasn't, that wasn't the thing, the phrase, the term. But yeah, no, I'm just clarifying because it's part of it. Yeah. Like, I mean, I was considered a tomboy. Yeah.

You know, if you had to have like a gender identification for me, that's what that was. And like, I I mean my mom has been accepting of everything about me the whole time which is not always great

because it's this sort of like acceptance with no boundaries that isn't always like the greatest thing because like in what way? well like I had no

responsibilities and I you know like when I wasn't doing well in school you know it's like those kinds it's like you can accept that your child is doing this but there's also stuff to be done and like it's parenting needs a little you gotta have some pushback I love her I'm saying all of this with love because like I it's a lesson that I learned and I'm grateful for that and like

I could have just used a little or whatever I don't know what it is and I'm not resentful for it. But then, you know, like, I don't know that my dad didn't like it. You know, he didn't like it, but he also liked it. Yeah. To his, he didn't realize that he liked it. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of my life has been like, yeah, I'm, he's literally told me cause he, he doesn't realize he shouldn't is like, I don't know, maybe if I would've had a son and we would have gotten along better. And I'm like, why are you telling me this? But I'm also accepting of the fact that he's doing the best that he can. Which is why I would even talk about it openly on here.

I was like, yeah, it's the best that he can. He's not doing it to make me feel bad. He's just, that's his experience. Yeah. Yeah. He means it in a way that is. Maybe I could have done better if you were different. That he thinks he's being supportive.

Right. Yeah, yeah. And maybe I could have been a better dad. And it comes out shitty, but yeah. And that's basically his way of saying, I don't know that I was a great dad. Yeah, yeah. That's what I can squeeze out of that. And yeah, that's it.

But when he says that, I want to be like, but you had a son! You know, like I am – everything you like, I love. You got both. Right. Yeah. You did. And like, but he, I can't see it. So it's, it's whatever.

But, you know, I mean, it's, it was the eighties and then the early nineties. And like, there was a lot of like trying to get that out of there from either parents or teachers or other parents or whatever. And then my, you know, I kind of over kind of over corrected to be like i'm not gay you know like i'm just this and it's like you know all of that was very external and it took a lot of time to unwind all that yeah because it was protective you know and it got me where i am and i to to hold on to it and be mad about it uh doesn't doesn't help me today yeah you know when you in coming out where i i just because it's not my experience is there is there like a coming out as a gay woman first or is there coming out as

my story was yeah or is or whatever or were they kind of mixed together and not at all it was a no no not mixed together at all yeah um and because i i like my coming out story is years long yeah it's not like a because you got to think of the timeline the region the specificity of me you know all those things yeah it's not like a blank i didn't get all my friends together it was you know i was um when i when i said the words i think i'm gay or i'm gay i don't really have a distinct memory of of what it what i exactly said i was 19 so that was 2001 yeah well you know um and i came out to somebody that was like a friend you know and then that person was like, months later, like, you can't be gay, I'm in love with you. And I moved back here to be with you. And then I dated them for like, three years. And so that's like a whole thing that I'm, you know, still like working on.

But my experience of realizing that I was true, like, I always knew, but you don't have words for it. I always knew I was slightly different and like, whatever. You know, everybody's slightly different. We're all slightly different. Yeah, no, yeah, no. And like, I remember watching the puppy episode of Ellen and having like the physical response. Like a lot of queer people describe this sort of like,

it's just a full body experience of like, it just is energy that shoots through your body. It's not like some other world. It's just like, other world it's just like what you know like seeing something or like the song ring of keys in fun home or whatever it's like just seeing it you experience it it's like either long or short you know and i just remember being like this is something this is something you know and then i you know didn't want it wanted it didn't want it whatever and then came came out at 19 because I was skateboarding one day and there was another girl skateboarding there.

And there were never girls skateboarding where I was and at the time. And so it was a wild experience. I was always the only one. And this dude was there with her, but I knew him. I didn't know her. And he skated over to me and he goes, you see that? That's Jess. She thinks you're cute.

And then he left. And I don't even know if that was true. Like looking back on it now, I'm like, was that even a real thing? I don't know. If he was pulling my leg, I'm grateful for it. Because it was the first time that it went the other way. Yeah. Because I thought in my like isolation and, you know, lack of understanding and lack of like reflection, given the time and the region and blah, blah, blah, blah, all that shit,

I thought there was something wrong with me. Because that's not what the dolls do. That's not what the cartoons do. That's not what my parents do, even though they're not together. Like, this isn't how it works. This is weird that you, that this is weird that whatever this is that you're feeling, no one, it's not around. So, you're feeling no one it's not around so you so you're weird and also like

when i was a kid i like kissed girls in like second grade in this way that was like very i had orchestrated all of it and then the like come down from that felt very like oh you that was bad what you did was bad whether people told me that or not i just had the feeling that it was bad uh and they didn't like it after it happened. Like they were, they did it. But then afterwards they were like, I have to be away from that person. So I felt this like sort of, you know, scarlet letter about it. So then that person opened that back, that channel that like, oh, like women could like me. I didn't know that was real. So then I was like, oh, this is a real thing. And then telling that person that I ended

up dating, which I could also look back at it and be like, oh, like, you know, people joke about like being bisexual as a gateway. And it's like, that's cruel, I think. But also like, oh, I was just like, I was just experiencing things and I did it out of guilt, but also like, it's okay. Yeah. It's not, everything's okay. It got me to where I am. Yeah. And then I came out to my mom at like 22 or 20, cause I met somebody, we started dating and I was like, oh yeah, this is it. I was like, when I was doing improv, I liked it. It was fun. I was committed to it.

And then I started doing standup and I was like, this is it. So that's like kind of my like dating men. Cause I, I, that one experience was not great, but, um, and I, I haven't dated like a ton of people in general in my history, but like, I have a great relationship with the first guy that I dated, first person that I dated who happens to be like a cis man, you know? We have a great relationship. I love him. And I loved him then. It was, I wasn't like, this is so terrible and this is against me and everything, you know, it just was. Well, and that also too, there's, because humans, we're just humans.

Yeah. It's like, there's the possibility exists. It's all a continuum. Yeah. It's all, it all, yeah. We're, I say on stage often, like, we're just like trees. We're like rings on, everything that I've always been and everything I'll ever be. Yeah.

Today. Yeah. You know, and that's cool. Yeah. And for me, very freeing. Like, identity is like a very cool, flexible thing to me. Not. Yeah. You know, and that's cool. Yeah. And for me, very freeing. Like, identity is, like, a very cool, flexible thing to me. Not necessarily fluid. It's, like, there are these things that sort of, like, molecules that are generally around each other, and they all sort of make up this being.

And then, like, the labeling that's, like, very external and somebody putting that on you is just very isolating and, like,'s just it's just not kind i don't think you know it's not like i don't think somebody's saying oh that person's a lesbian is like them being cruel because there's nothing wrong with that but not being open to that person as a person you know that like that comes first yeah um which i've found to be like a thread in the queer community which is why i like to identify more as like queer than anything else. Cause it's like, whatever you think that is, I'm it man. You know, like whatever you, whatever's in your brain, that's what I am. So there you go. And then the non-binary thing was less for me coming out than it was real, a realization of something that I could be like, oh, cause I'd been sort of like, it's like, oh, I had to be one or the other.

And in my life, that was what was always happening. And I had so much anger around it. And it was part of my process of letting go of the anger of people calling me sir and laughing at me because I realized like, they're just laughing at their own fear. You know, like it doesn't have anything to do with me. And also I'm a comedian. I want people to laugh. Not like that.

Not like that. Not like that laughter. But like, who cares? me. And also, I'm a comedian. I want people to laugh. Not like that. Not like that. Not like that laughter. But like, who cares? Yeah. You know, like, I mean, I'm sure there are people listening that they're like, it's important. And I'm like, I think it is. I think it is. But it's not so important that the anger from it takes up most of my life.

Right. And it was. It is important. I carried it around. It's important, but it's also, it's your life. Yeah. You got to, you know. And also, it's getting older. I carried it around. It's important, but it's also, it's your life. You got to, you know, and also it's getting older, getting older. Yeah, right.

I'm not old, Andy. Everybody thinks I'm 15. That's the harder, honestly, that's one of the harder ones. Really? People treating you like a child. Like on airplanes, people treat me like I'm a, like a child. Yeah. It's not like, I'll be like, excuse me.

Could I, I'm like, look at you, like Miss Smarty Pant. Like, I'm like, I'm 37 years old. People are like, oh, you'll love that. I'm like, it's not the way that you think, though. It's bubblegum flavored. Yeah. Right. Here's your fluoride, Popsicle.

Jesus. I have a degree. I'm still paying for it. in being old yeah no i think i think if you don't if you don't get through that go through this life and let go of anger and let go of frustrate you know yeah and just kind of be like just the things that the things that matter to you when you're young just i have like i have conversations with people in their 30s about their frustrations that they're having with their parents. Yeah. And I'm 52.

And I just, and I don't say it often because it just sounds so condescending. But it's just like, just wait. Yeah. You'll get tired of this bullshit. And you'll tell them. And that's the time. Yeah. And you'll tell, yeah, yeah.

You'll tell them, I'm not putting up with this bullshit anymore. Yeah. You know? Or you won't and you continue to be stuck and fucking frustrated. Yeah, but ultimately the thing is like, do you want to keep fighting? Yeah. You know? And people are like, we have to fight this.

And it's like, yes, but fighting doesn't always look like exhaustion. Right. You know, it's knowing. Right. It's intention. It's me walking into a bathroom knowing I'm supposed to be there. Yeah. Like, we're all supposed to be here.

I'm just not walking in with a fight. It's dropping the fight with my parents. Exactly. Both in the personal and in the non-personal, you are letting someone be themselves. Yes, acceptance. Okay, this sucks about you. This has been a friction point about you for a long time. But what am I going to do about it?

I'm the only, I'm the only variable in this situation that I have any control over. So, okay, you know, you're going to be that way. And I'm, if I'm going to continue to be in your life, I'm just going to have to go, okay, that's how you are. And then you just take that to the non-personal. It's all self-preservation. Absolutely. and then you just take that to the non-personal it's all self-preservation absolutely it's all making your life better because you just decide that's not going to matter to me anymore because it's eating away at me yeah and people are people with a bunch of problems and and lives and

histories that you will never understand yeah and in that you understand it because like what is my are my it was me living my life as though everyone is affecting me yeah with and they don't have their own life which is kind of grandiose it's yeah you know what i mean very egotistical yeah yeah and like oh wow i don't have that much power yeah you know and like yeah you say i'm not putting up with this bullshit anymore and that's the last time you say it yeah and then the bullshit comes back up again and you you don't put up with it but that is going there it is again yeah so i okay yeah you know and then you maybe realize like oh that's the bullshit isn't that big yeah it's just a tiny turd right it's just like a tiny little easy to pass you just let it flow through you know

well the second question of the three questions since we're talking about passing and, you know, flowing. Sure, yeah. Is the where are you going? Yeah. I mean, what is that? We barely talked about comedy, which thank God, because it's one of my least favorite topics. I don't really like talking about it either. I have.

There are so many. I mean, I like to find new ways of talking about it where it's not it's talking about it without talking because like it's yeah it's not a it's not accessible and it's not very relatable it's also it's also well and i also find it too to be a little bit like talking about being in love or talking about sex or something it's like no that's it's its own thing you know it's like a poem can't be a movie and i don't think you know like like being in love i don't want to talk about it because it's magical when it's just being in love but when you talk about it it's like it's like why talking about dreams yeah can be so difficult describing dancing or something it was a feeling yeah it's a

cognitive feeling you know yeah exactly um but in terms of like where am i going i don't know and i love that yeah yeah like i for the first because i used to be like i don't know and now i'm like i don't know yeah which is a is a distinctly different feeling do you think you'll get married again i am taking a break from talking about my personal life in that way oh you are okay Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's perfectly acceptable. I appreciate it.

I mean, I'm fuming. Yeah, of course. I'm so mad. The steam is coming out of your hands. Oh! That was my big question. No, it just occurred to me. I don't know.

No, I appreciate it. But yeah, that's not, it's just not a thing I'm, yeah, I'm taking a break from that. I understand. I understand. I appreciate that. I mean I'm going through a divorce right now and I often am torn between, A, there's a lot of other people involved. So I can't just look at it like this is my healing and I need to say whatever I need to say. That's not true. No.

You know, I mean – And you maybe need that but not in a public forum. Right. And you maybe need that, but not in a public form. Although sometimes I do feel like there was a point in the process where I felt like being a little bit public about being in pain and going through this awful thing that like there needed to be some kind of public nature to it. Because I did, I don't know. It was just an urge. It was like, I need to do this yeah i need to say this i need to let people know like this fucking hurts you know this is awful uh i don't know what the but i'm the same way i have to it's a balance of i want to talk about it because it's something that's happening and also like that's this podcast is to talk about it because it's something that's happening. And also, like, that's this podcast is to talk about things like that. That's the stuff I want to talk about.

Yeah, I guess I'm just, there are parts of my life. Oh, and I'm not trying to convince you to open up. Yeah, and I don't think you are. I guess it's just like I'm learning new ways of, because like everything we just talked about was very personal to me. Yeah. But that's a different part of my life. Right. You know, and these are just parts of my life yeah yeah so yeah no i it's it's sometimes you know i'm sure that i've there i mean in fact i know there's times and especially in this process of the last year or so where there's things i've said that like i was i'm like

i shouldn't have done that shouldn't have said that shouldn't have done that but you don't know until you do yeah i don't know until you do it. Yeah, I don't know it until you do it. And now you get to go, oh, when something comes up like that, you maybe have a little more of an antenna that goes like, oh, this is maybe something that, maybe I pause on this for a second. Yeah, yeah. And I consider whether I want to talk about it. Well, and also it's like. Which is what I'm learning. Oh, no, I made a mistake.

Yeah. Oh, you know. And you could go like, I made a mistake. Yeah. Oh, you know. And you could, you could go like, I made a mistake or I'm grateful for the lesson. Yes. You know, like I'm grateful for the opportunity to do it differently next time. Yeah. And like, I might not do it to the way that I want to do it, but I'll do it a little bit differently than if I wouldn't have done that. Yeah. Made that mistake, what I perceive to be a mistake or whatever, which is a lot. That's a lot of work to do. And it's hard.

Yeah. It's really hard. Sure. And like, I mean, we are having a conversation about comedy right now. Yeah. Because it's like, what do you, there's that phrase truth in comedy, which I think has been taken a little too literally. At least, let's say this, I've taken it too literally.

Yeah. You know? And I'm like, so what does that actually mean? Yeah. I don't know. So I'm going to find out. Because I just don't know that, like, for me, every single thing that's happening for me is what comedy is about. Yeah.

You know? Yeah, yeah. Necessarily. Well, do you have, I mean, is there, do you have any kind of idea of like where you want to, you're acting on a show. Yes. You're a wonderful actor too. And I mean, is that, do you want to expand on that more? I mean, I would love to do that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not in control of it though. Yeah. No, I know. I know. Believe me, I know. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, I would love to do that. I mean, I would love to, I'm not in control of it, but I'm also like, how do I, how do I, how do I make more opportunity for growth in those, in those areas? And so that's like what I'm learning.

Do you like it as much as you like standup? super one-to-one. The ratio is like very one, even though the characters I've been playing are pretty one-to-one, but this one is, it's good trouble on free form. And it's a lot of fun. And I, cause I get to play like a villain and like, I mean, like I'm somebody's villain, you know, along the line, but, uh, I don't, I wasn't present necessarily in what I was doing when I was that villain for somebody. I don't know. But, uh, the, the villain that I get to be is like, it's so different from like the way I live my life. It's

been a lot of fun, you know? And the directors are really great. The crew's really great. It's been really fun to work on that show. I just, I love being a part of a thing like that. You know, I love to, I love acting because you get to like watch everybody do their jobs yeah i know and like i stand there and watch everybody do all this stuff and go like man thank you for putting the tape on the ground you know what i mean it's like there's just so many pieces that go into it that you know but you don't know yeah you're standing there doing it well i i went to film school and i was when i got out of columbia college in chic, when I got out of Columbia College in Chicago, when I got out of school, I was, or I worked in film production. And it, that was definitely informed because I also too, and that's where I started really acting was in film school because nobody knows any actors.

And if you're in one person's student film and you do kind of well, you know, you look, you can at least sort of pass as an actor. Yeah. After the lights come up in the classroom. You can use the actor's bathroom after that. As the lights come up, people are like, would you be in my student film next weekend? They have the camera on their shoulder. Yeah. So I got a lot of acting experience in film school and I want to be a film actor.

I like acting on stage just fine, but it's not what i set out to do right and i still my my philosophy as a film actor is that i'm like in i have one of the cushiest jobs on set but i'm still a member of the crew 100 and if and that and i think that the people that don't appreciate that are kind of missing out on what's really beautiful about this business. Yeah. A hundred percent. I could not agree with you more. Yeah.

And like, yeah, they're just missing out. They might be giving great performances. Yep. But yeah, you're really, because I mean, I've had some of the greatest conversations in my life, just like in the makeup chair, in the hair chair. You know, like all that shit. Oh, the makeup trailer is the best. It's so wonderful. It's the dishiest place in the world. Yeah. And I've like, you know, talked about like spiritual, like all that. The makeup trailer is the best. It's so wonderful. It's the dishiest place in the world.

And I've like, you know, talked about like spiritual, like all kinds of shit. Yeah. And like the woman that did my, she did my makeup and it's all the makeup I've ever gotten has been wonderful. Let me say that. Every person is an artist, but she puts some of the best makeup on my face. And because I will say as the person that I happen to be, it is difficult to, because you're talking about a subjective thing,

no matter what. People are good at putting makeup on, but it's a subjective idea of what natural is to every single person. Yes. And so I've been crafting a, what I tell people when I get makeup for years, since I started getting makeup,

which I didn't say anything. And that was, I literally looked like I was going to a quinceanera. Like I had like the biggest, and I was like, what is that? So then I learned like, oh,

you got to tell people what you want. And so then it's, I've just been crafting it. And I usually, what I typically say now is like, whatever you would give a male actor, but I want it to be makeup. Cause one time I said that whatever you would give a dude, and then want it to be makeup because one time i said that whatever you would give a dude and then they didn't do anything to my face and i was like

that's crazy that you put no makeup on men that's wild yes yes uh but then i say like you know but i do need like some some blending and like the bags under my eyes you know like i all that stuff and maybe fill in my eyebrows because they get lost on camera. Yeah. And she gave me some really amazing makeup. And I told I continue to tell her this. And her first job was raising Arizona. Wow. Because I was interested and I was like, so what was like your first job? Or like, when did you get into makeup?

And when, you know, when have you been whatever? And so she was like, it was wild to get out of like school for this and have my first job be make everybody look filthy so she spent like her first jobs like just making people dirty yeah which is so funny because you don't think about that as makeup oh yeah but it absolutely absolutely and also i had some of the best hair like i just posted a photo yesterday from i think the second shoot or it might have been the first one i can can't remember, but some of the best hair, because hair is also hard for people. Like I just,

I have had a difficult time translating what my hair should look like to people. What looks like Rhea's hair. Yeah. Or like what looks good. Cause I was like, I want to differentiate this. I don't want to just look like Rhea. I mean, I can't not.

Yeah. But let's like make it look a little bit different. And like, she did a great job. It was like, it looks a little bit different. And like she did a great job. Yeah. It was like, it looks great. That's nice. Yeah. She gave me like a little bit of a haircut and stuff.

And it was, yeah, it was really great. So I was like, man, I really love what you did with my hair. Yeah. And yeah, like talking to like grips and all the, like, it's cool. The shit that they do is like amazing. And how else are you, if you, if you are an actor who wants to do those things it's important to pay attention oh yeah yeah you know if you want to direct the best thing to do is like not just watch the director yeah but watch the uh cinematographer and what they do because that's the but you know like and also like watch the

director interact with that person yeah to learn how to either do it or not do it and there's also all different kind of styles. There's directors that are very camera focused. And there's other ones where it's just like, well, that's your deal. I'm going to tell the actors kind of what to do. And I'm going to make choices. And then there's directors that are like, they won't tell you a single thing to do. I know.

And then you're like, do I need to do something different? Yeah. But I mean, I had a great experience on that once where I didn't get any notes. And I was like, oh, it's because I don't need to do something different. Yeah. But I mean, I had a great experience on that once where like I didn't get any notes and I just, I was like, oh, it's because I don't need to do anything different. Yeah, that's always. And I was like, wow. And that's me tooting my own horn, but God damn it, I have a horn. Yeah. I wasn't supposed to do, there was nothing in the where and when and to whom I was born to that was saying,

this person will be on a television show in 2019. So, like, I'm proud of that. Absolutely. You know, that I, like, showed up and did my job. Because I was having, Andy, I was having a hell of a day that day. Like, I was in a bad way. Yeah. I was in a, I did not feel good.

Yeah. And there was part of me that wanted to go to work and tell, not literally say, I felt it, but like show everybody how awful I felt. And that is the person who's missing out on their life. Yeah. Because I was like, that doesn't mean that these feelings aren't real. They just don't get to come to work with you. Right.

They're in the car. They're parking. They're not anybody else's problem. They're baking in the Santa Clarita sun in your 2001 Volkswagen, Jetta wagon. And then when you get back in the car, you can bake with them, man. But they are not going in the trailer and they're not going to lunch with you.

My phrase for that is, don't let your bucket slosh on other people. Yeah. Keep it in your bucket. Keep it in your bucket, man. Well, I imagine, do you find, and this is getting into the third question of what have you learned,

do you find yourself, do people seek you out for advice, like young people especially? You mean, well, I think I know what you mean, generally. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like via the internet. I have a podcast called Three Swings, which is like a life in baseball podcast. That's right, I forgot to say baseball podcast. Oh, yeah, that's okay.

like a life in baseball podcast. And I tried, I forgot to say baseball podcast. Oh yeah. That's okay. I'm actually, sometimes I'm stoked to be free from the baseball part of it. Cause it's like, man, I really went hard at that. And now that's like, I feel like I'm Mr. Met sometimes when I show up to a thing, it's like a human baseball. But, um, uh, and I have this, uh, thing called Rosen bag, which is people sending in questions. And the first day people sent me advice questions and I like kind of like it tickled me. It had nothing to do with baseball. And I was like, let's do baseball. And ever since then, I've been like, man, I really wish I wouldn't have said that. Right. Because I actually like it. I don't think I know anything more than anybody else. And I keep asking people to send me advice questions and they don't.

You know, you know something more than some people. You just do. You do. You know something more than I do and I can learn something from you. We can all learn. Absolutely. I just haven't had a platform and I'd be happy to use it to try to understand more. Yeah.

Because somebody asking me for advice is me learning more. Yeah. It's not me telling. And that's a lesson that I have to learn every time I open my stupid mouth because I want to have the answer. I'm a person who wants to have the answer for so many reasons because I'm a human being. And also like I grew up around grandparents and older people and like having the answer at four or five or six was precocious and it made them laugh. And so then I wanted to have the answer. And sometimes it's the answer and sometimes

it's a joke. Sometimes that's great. And sometimes it's awful and it's hurtful. People feel like I'm not, you're not listening to me. And that, you know, and then you go like, oh yeah, that makes sense for me to just have an answer instead of go like, I hear what you're saying or say that without saying it and just like, let somebody have their feeling and their experience. That's something you have to learn every day but if somebody wants to ask me a question on my podcast i would love to try to get at it not have the answer but like get at it and say like this has been my experience i forget what opened this up originally oh do people ask you for advice um yeah and i mean i've learned how to give it and I keep learning how to give it by asking other people for advice.

Yeah. And not just people that I, that are close or that I trust or that I think have the answer. Like actually asking people that I'm like, I don't know you at all. What do you think about this? Yeah. And oftentimes they are the people with the most knowledge. Yeah. Because of it, because I'm being vulnerable and I'm taking a chance and I'm opening myself up.

Yeah. To the world, not just another person, but to the world. Because I've also found when I only want to help people that I know or that I feel like love me or that I'm close to, whatever it is, whatever the matrix of that are in my interior life. Or that are, you know, like you. Yeah. Not like you in that they have affection for you, but that they are similar to you. That's not, like, that's not the only way. Yeah.

To only do that is to live a very myopic life, you know? And that's not, it's not a judgment. It's just like, for me, I realized how much I was closing myself off from the world by that. And then once you open yourself up to like helping people that you don't know, that you might not never know, you know, like all this stuff is like, it really opens up your experience. And then you're able to give advice or suggestions to other people because you've had such a different experience because it's not only tiptoeing through where you feel comfortable, you know, and it teaches you that you can be comfortable, you know, I'm going to say something that's like very whatever, but like, you know, the, the like sort of conservative far right, whatever you want to say, like there are

no safe spaces. It's absolutely true. Yeah. I mean, the problem with that is it's 100% true. Yeah. And we all know that. Like you can't, like a plane could fall out of the sky on us right now. You know? And that seems like highly rhetorical and like so fantastical, but it's also true. And the only safe space you can have is the inside of you. You know?

That's it. And then you put that out into the world and you try to make places, which can also be people or relationship or whatever. Then you try to make them a little more safer, as safe as they could be, but nothing can ever be, which all of this is how I'm able to like, just walk through the world with a lot less of that stuff. Yeah. You know, because like I just know that I cannot stop the world from saying the things they want to say to me. Mm-hmm.

So I just, you know, like in comedy, we're always like kind of talking about, well, this comic is saying this and they shouldn't be saying this. And like that might be objectively true. I don't know. I don't make the rules. I only care about what I say. That's all I have, like you were saying. Yeah. That's the only variable I don't know. I don't make the rules. I only care about what I say. That's all I have. Like you were saying. Yeah. That's the only variable I have control over. Yeah. And I, I think if you want to get into comedy, if, if we want to touch on comedy at all, one thing I do know is that I'm not going to spend my time telling other people what they can and can't say. Yeah. Cause I don't like it when people say that to me. Oh, I hate it. And I know

that there are things that I need to learn to not do. That doesn't mean like I'm going to say what I want. It's like I just – I don't have – so you lead by example as opposed to like – because I'm not talking about anything. I'm talking about a person. Yeah. That's not anything. Yeah. They're not talking about me.

Yeah. Well. You know? This has been really great. Yeah. They're not talking about me. Yeah. Well. You know. This has been really great. And I. I appreciate the conversation a lot. Oh, thank you. I'm glad.

Because I preach. You know, you. And I've always loved this about you. Just how open you are. You're a very open, revelatory person. Oh, that's a very. And you're not afraid to. You know, I think it's weird to say.'re brave because it's like you're not rushing into a fire but you are but you aren't afraid you

aren't afraid to say this is who you are yeah this is how you feel i mean i feel the same way about you and well thank you uh but but but you present you and that is that is not always an easy thing to do. No. And I, for one, thank you for it. Well, I thank you for doing the same thing. Well, thank you. You know? Thank you.

And I do want to say there was a time on Twitter where he said something about you hoped, like, kids wouldn't always have to come out or something like that. Yeah. To that effect. And I responded to it and my intentions were always, you know, whatever. I can say that they're always good, but I do think I maybe was in my, I still had some tight fists around that stuff. So I just want to say that I appreciate your searching, seeking that you do publicly, like you were talking about. I appreciate that. And I wish that I would have opened a dialogue

in a maybe softer and kinder way. Okay. So I appreciate us still having that opportunity to have a dialogue. Excellent. You know, in my harshness or sharpness or whatever. So I appreciate you remaining open to me after I did that. I have no hard feelings about that.

That was a while ago. It was a while ago. And it's not anything that I've been, it's up there. Yeah. Now it's not up there. Yeah. It's like, hey, let's talk about this. Yeah.

Because I was like, oh, this is a great opportunity to be open and vulnerable and say like, yeah, I don't like the way I did that. Yeah. There's a better way to do it. Great. But I couldn't have learned how to do it without doing it that time. Yeah. There's a better way to do it. Great.

But I couldn't have learned how to do it without doing it that time. So I appreciate you being like a kind, friendly place for me to make that, to like learn that. Happy to do it. Because I've been softer to other people. Oh, good. And then I was like, I'll be softer now. That's. So I hope I've shown up softer to you. But you've, all those things that you were so kind and and just saying about me you've had a pardon by

that by by not being like well fuck that and maybe you did i don't know but you didn't you know throw me out with the bath water and go well that was shitty or no and i don't even know how much it affected you but i i don't like the way i i didn't in retrospect i didn't like the way that i showed up in that conversation and so i've made those adjustments in my life. I continue to. You're here. I like talking to you. You're so used to it. And it's nice.

I like talking to you. So, I mean, obviously it didn't hurt that much. Right. Yeah. But I appreciate you, Andy. I appreciate you too. And I appreciate you listeners for tuning in to another episode of the three questions. And we'll have more for you next week.

Thank you. The three questions with Andy Richter is a team Coco and Earwolf production. It's produced by me, Kevin Bartelt, executive produced by Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Thank you.