The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Rhett Miller

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

Musician/writer Rhett Miller joins Andy Richter to discuss thirty years with Old 97's, the delicate balance of art and business, sending your kids off to college, and more.

hi Rhett hi Andy how are you I'm good how are you fantastic we have restored we this is the podcast by the way we've already started um you and I'm speaking to ret miller solo art current solo artist but also lead singer and sort of do you consider yourself the leader of the old 97s well i'm definitely the lead singer of the old right sevens um i used to really try to boss those guys around and it didn't go well but you know we're we're about to have our 30th anniversary celebration in january 30 years same band same lineup but so yeah no i had to let go of the idea that i was the leader of the band and that's right part of why we've stayed together i think is it because they picked on you enough they you know you got enough wedgies and dressing downs and short sheeting your bus bunk.

They pick on me to this day. Yeah. It's, you know, honestly, that is like, you know, that was always one of the could handle it because it's such an awful thing to work with some royal entity that can't be, I don't know, can't have a sense of humor about themselves, you know? Oh, my God. And I know we all know people like that. I know lots of lead singers of bands that, oh, my God, you know, John Bryan in Los Angeles. I do, yes. So John, years ago, 20 years ago, in fact, when we were making The Instigator, John, he was talking about an Irish singer whom I won't name because I don't know them personally.

I know it's one of two people. He said, oh, that guy, he should be shot with balls of his own shit. I love that. It's so perfect. Which one of the chieftains is it? Those fucking chieftains. Well, 30 years, that's, I mean, do you know? I mean, you know, outside.

Well, even like, that's, I mean, do you know, I mean, you know, outside, well, even like the, that's better than the Rolling Stones, you know, I mean, deaths aside, you know, they couldn't hold on to people. Oh, yeah, you're right. What do you think is like the secret to that kind of longevity for a band? And bands are notoriously delicate, papery thin entities that can just crumble at the slightest breath. Why do you think you guys have stuck around so long? I have a theory and it's counterintuitive. I think part of what helped us stay together was the fact that we never really broke through in a big way. Like we never had a giant hit. We never made a mountain of cash. We never became a thing where then later we would have to live it down, or we would have to go out on a nostalgia tour,

or we would argue about who got more money. And actually, as a side note, we did decide very early on in our band that we would split our publishing, even the drummer, even the drummer. Even the... Oh, see, that's crazy. Yeah. That's where communism takes one step too far. Not the drummer. Okay. But anyway, it's nice.

It's a nice gesture. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think, I think that if we, you know, more money, more problems. I think if we had really ever hit it big, I think it would have been harder, weirdly, to keep our band together. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, it does make sense.

Because also, too, then, the pressure of the spotlight does tend to make people go a little crazy, you know? And it's not like it shouldn't. It's ridiculous what happens to you when you're the focus of things. And I mean, and I, you know, through all these years of working with Conan, you know, there are times I went off on my own and I was the, you know, the number one guy of the thing. And I didn't get any particular charge out of it. It was I mean, it's nice when people listen to you, when you say I'd like something to be done this way. It's nice when they listen to you. But I mean'd like something to be done this way it's nice when they listen to you but i mean people did that at the conan show anyway so i and i would especially like i remember in between the tonight show and the tbs show we went on a tour and a couple of

times we went on a private plane and there was a bunch of us like, and it was, you know, of course, very thrilling and exciting to get on a private plane. But I felt like I'm so glad that that private plane isn't on my back. You know, I don't, it was just, I couldn't just walk onto it and go like, oh, cool, private plane, check out the fruit plate, have whatever you want. I was like, oh my God, the pressure of sustaining this and knowing that there was like two trucks full of gear going somewhere and I'm getting on a plane and it's all about me. I'm like, oh my God, I'm so glad to be a soldier in this war and not a general because it's just too much. It's just too much responsibility. You know, the responsibilities of day-to-day life are enough for me.

I've always had kind of class issues growing up. Like, I grew up in a family that had had money a generation or two before me and didn't really have money when I was growing up. But I was surrounded by kids that did. And it's kind of fucked me up in a way. Did you grow up in any kind of affluence or were you? I mean, we did, we,

we were just fine. But what we did have, like my grandfather was, he was a very nice man. And in some kind of niceness, meritocracy, he was rewarded by that in, but he was in politics and he kind of just kind of fell into it. He was just kind of like a farm guy and, you know, he worked hard, but like not chasing dollars, things like working in the

garden all day Sunday, that kind of work, you know, but, you know, he started working for, he was on a train trip apparently. And in that space of that train trip became some guy's campaign manager like just struck up a conversation with this guy and by the and he was like on his way to a poultry convention with chickens actually on the train of course and started talking to this guy and he ended up becoming his name was william stratton and he ended up becoming like part of his cadre of supporters. And he ended, I think he was his campaign manager when he became governor. And so my grandfather was in the governor's cabinet. He was the director of conservation for the state because he liked to

hunt and fish. So he's like, let me be in charge of the hunting and fishing. So there was this, and I wasn't really aware of it until later. Like he was a powerful man. Everywhere we went, somebody knew, like if you go to the DMV, you kind of get special treatment. If any of me or my cousins or brothers and sister, you know, like wanted a summer job, there were like state summer jobs that we could have. I know what it's like to have like a family, like we once were something. And then it all kind of, and then you're just like, oh no, we're just working schmoes trying to make it. And that's kind of your situation in Texas. I know I read something about, was it your grandfather in 1952 purchased the New York Yanks. His dad had built a fortune through textiles. And so my grandfather grew up wealthy and at 32 years old purchased an NFL franchise and had no idea what to do and brought it to Texas and wound up because of racism, running into some real problems, because he had some of the first black players in the NFL. And he really tried hard and meant well. And he like kind of stood up in some of the right fights and fought the good fight. But he still, his ideas were

not realistic. And he wound up having to give the team back to the NFL before the season was even over. They finished out the year in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and then they became later the Baltimore Colts. But it was the last NFL franchise to fail. And it was really the end of the family fortune. I mean, there was a little bit after that where it petered out, you know, over the next 20 years. But yeah, by the time I came along, there was just some vestiges of what once had been a fortune. And then there's kids. We had a house because my grandfather had given my dad a house

when I was a little kid. Then they traded in for a smaller house and then a smaller house. But we were in the wealthy part of Dallas called Highland Park, which if you live in Dallas, you know, it's like. I know where it is. Yeah. And, you know, Jerry Jones lives there. It's Ross Perot.

It's almost a gated community, sort of. Yeah. And but I remember getting beat up at the Highland Park swimming pool because we didn't have a maid. Somebody figured out that we didn't have a maid. But yeah, it was weird. And it's something I've tried to deal with, because I have a lot of friends now that through hard work or accident of birth have money and, and some of them are so great and so kind and so nice. And then there's the thing that happens, like to me where I have notoriety without, you know, the hassle of being wealthy. And, you know, it's funny, because you describe what you're

describing about your grandfather, it almost kind of reminds me of how you have probably lived for decades now, because you're so recognizable. But you've never, you know, but you've never been like Tom Cruise level. No. So it's but it's funny, because it you, and I guess, and I have a little of this too, it lets you be beloved, right? And that's kind of grateful for it because my life is very comfortable. And I look at really famous people and the weirdness that they have to deal with on a daily basis and the weirdness that has been impacted on their brains and hearts. And you can say, like, I'm glad that I avoided a lot of that. And as a if you're a younger person, you might think, that's sour grapes. You're full of shit. You just wish you were a big timer. And they don't realize, like, no, no, I'm old. And I really do see all this.

And yeah, I'd love to have a wheelbarrow full of money. But I don't. But I mean, I'm certainly within relative terms rich. I got a nice house. You know, I live well, eat well. But yeah, it's so much more comfortable. I know, you know, friends of mine that are really famous and just seeing like, I mean, I've mentioned this before, but like knowing Will Ferrell for a long time. And Will Ferrell is one of the nicest people in the world.

And so knowing him when he was you know on SNL and stuff and then as it slowly grew and I you know and I wasn't with him every day but I'd see him you know I kind of you know would work with him and be with him for an extended period of time kind of after he became Will Ferrell and would hear him kind of be a little bit short with people and kind of feel like, oh no, he's turned a little sour, you know, like he's kind of, you know, and then spend more time with him and realize, oh no, that's a survival skill. Like when people, when you get so beloved that everyone just looks at you as their property, you have to kind of become a little abrasive and have a little pushback in order to just keep some breathing room in your life. You know, I mean, I can't, you know, like I can't imagine like Tom Cruise going to the grocery store. You know, like I just, and I want to be able to go to the grocery store.

You know, yeah, I'd like to have a gazillion dollars, but I don't know if, you know, I guess, yeah, I could send somebody else to the grocery store, but, you know, I've been around groups of people who are so famous that they can't go to the grocery store. And I kind of view them in their natural setting with each other. And they are weird. There's a weird, like, mask of the red death kind of feeling of, we can only really let our hair down with each other in our walled encampments, you know? Boy, I've really seen that because you you can't trust and and believe me i i've always been hungry for more success than what i've had i've always been hungry for more recognition more

financial security all those things and it's part of what keeps me writing songs i sat there for hours yesterday working on a new song and part of it's because i fucking love making music and i love writing songs and i'm an artist and this is what i do but part of it's because I fucking love making music and I love writing songs and I'm an artist and this is what I do. But part of it's also because I've got one kid who just started college and another kid who's about to start college. And that's a real thing. Like, oh, I got to figure this out. But then when you get around people who have it or whatever it is, are on the next level and then you're down here there's like a like a hungry thing where you're like what do what do i have to do to get there

like can you tell me the secret and i get how when people are on that next level it makes it hard to hang out with anyone who's forget about like common people but even just like the kind of mid-level like hungry climbers, Jesus Christ, we're getting so inside football and it makes me feel gross to even admit that I, that I had this kind of ambition or even desperation. And I feel like when I do things and when I try to even reach out to people in a way, and it's driven by that, like, like god i hope they can help me like my my wife is not um she's a good person erica she's she's rude but she'll do a thing where she goes like you need to be out there networking and i'm like oh my god that's the last thing i want to do

oh just yeah i'd rather just curl up in a ball and die. Yeah. You know, I hope that my art can go out and put my kids through college. Because if what it takes is me trying to weasel my way into a higher plane of celebrity or cash grab, I don't think I've got that in me. Yeah. I remember somebody once said, I was like, God, I wish I could hang out with Tom Petty. I don't know anything about Tom Petty. I know people that work with him or whatever. But I was like, God, I wish I could hang out with Tom Petty.

And they said, Tom Petty only hangs out with people that are as famous or more famous than Tom Petty. Yeah. I'm like, well, I kind of get that. It's probably because, you know, I mean, like you and I and i have you know a similar level of notoriety so you and i can complain to each other and we don't sound like assholes we might we might well i mean i'm sure there's plenty of people who are like shut the fuck up you big babies but you know like if tom can if tom petty complains to you, you're going to think like, fuck you, Tom Petty, you're Tom Petty, you know, but that's, you know, and that's the human condition. Dissatisfaction and, you know,

and dissatisfaction can be such an engine for our forward progress. Like I'm not happy where I am now, so I better move forward. Like there's, you know know you can get a lot of good momentum going from being like fuck fuck now i want more you know and and you can if you can do that you know it can it can work out for you if you have a heart if you feel like fuck now i want more and somebody goes we need to network and you go that's a problem and i'm right there with you but yeah but it's a fine line right because the for me the most self-destructive impulse of all is the is envy right yeah oh absolutely and boy and now with all of the the scrolling and the feeds it just boy it really fuels that like well how come they got that gig

like last week was this thing called the amerana Festival. And I've never really existed in that world. And it seems so cool. And all my friends are there. And I'm like, why don't they want me? I mean, come on. I remember I was there when Rob Bleatstein, who worked at a radio magazine, he said, Yeah, I finally came up with a name for this format. It's going to be called Americana. And I was like, thank God. That's way better than alt-country or y'all-ternative or cow-punk or whatever all the dumb things were that people were saying. Y'all-ternative. Y'all-ternative.

The worst was, I remember one group of people wanted to call it honky-scronk. And I'm like, what are you doing? But he said, let's call it. What does that even mean? Yeah, Rob said, let's call it Americana. And I'm like, what are you doing? But he said, let's call it. What does that even mean? Yeah, Rob said, let's call it Americana. And I was like, oh, that's great. I was literally there when they invented the term Americana. And now they're having the Americana Awards every year.

And I'm like, what do I have to do? What do I got to do? Yeah, now is that what you're – because my next question was, when your wife says network more, what does that mean? Like, and what is it, like, how is that going to, and I mean, because music is so fucking weird now. You have a new fantastic album out, by the way. I mean, it's fantastic. I know you know it's out, but it's fantastic, by the way. And it is out.

And it's called The Misfit. And I've been listening to it the last couple days. And it's really great. But, I mean, but how did, you know, it's so fucking weird. There's no radio. You know, I mean, aside from maybe a, you know, a satellite, you know, a Sirius XM channel, you know, Outlaw Country or something. But like where aside from just kind of word of mouth, how did how do you how does a solo album like yours get to be played nowadays? It's funny. They are going to radio with one of the songs from the album right now,

and it's doing really well. But it's one of those things where we had a radio guy and he's like, I said, oh, so I heard it's really doing well in the, again, the Americana chart. And he's like, yeah. I was like, oh, what? He goes, well, it kind of doesn't really count. I said, okay, well, what do we want? He goes, the AAA chart. I said, oh, that's great. So I heard that it was like number something. What does that mean? Well, so it's an adult alternative. It's adult. Oh, okay. And I'm trying to think of- And the last A is ass play. Adult alternative ass play. And the last A is ass play. Adult alternative ass play.

And I said, so do you think that there's any chance I can get into the top whatever on that chart? And he goes, oh, no. Oh, no. That's all money and big, big pop artists. And I was like, well, then why are you guys working so hard? He goes, I don't know. Just to try and let people know you have a new record out. I was like, what are we even doing here? I don't know just to try and let people know you have a new record out i was like what are we even doing here i i don't know man that's why i'm out with the old 97s on tour right now and i just you just keep doing it and hoping well this this is my big break right now being on with you oh my god talk about pressure. Oh, I'm sweating. What does networking mean to you? Like, what is it that she's talking about that is distasteful

or that is, you know, I don't know. Sure. Well, you know, what it always makes me think of is taking, like, actual personal relationships where I'm friends with somebody and they know they know this group of people. And then I and then I somehow coerce the person that I'm friends with to put me in a room with that group of people. And then I go in there and I'm so charming that then they're like, oh, my God, You know, I just didn't realize what a force of nature you are. We got to get you and then whatever that becomes, like in a movie or, oh, we got to use one of your songs in the closing credits to this big Hollywood film. Because that's something like you look at all the ways, like for my career now, I'm 52. I just turned 52 years old. And I've been doing this band for 30 years. And I've been doing gigs since I was 16. So it's like, at this point, what would really make a difference? By the way, I didn't anticipate you and I were going to go this deep into like real talk. So I really appreciate it, actually.

You know, that's sort of – I don't have a podcast just, you know, because I'm lonely. It does work out that way a lot. But no, I mean, this is the kind of conversation that I want to have with people is like, tell me about what's important and kind of like what a struggle is. So, you know, I'm glad. I hope you don't mind. No, this is great. But it feels very careerist, which is to me kind of a, it's a side of what I do that I don't end up talking about much, because there's so much opportunity for grossness. But okay, so for me, at this point in my career, the thing that would really make a difference would

be to be, to have a song appear in a movie there's an old story that may be apocryphal about Nick Lowe and he wrote the song peace love and understanding what's so great about peace love and understanding and we mostly know the Elvis Costello version Nick Lowe does a great version but there was a version that appeared on the first band that he did Brinsley Schwartz wasn't that the first that and rock Rock Pile. Nick Lowe's great. But Nick Lowe, like what we're talking about, Nick Lowe had this really great career where he was a musician's musician, everybody loved him, but he never made a million dollars, right? He was just paying his mortgage, like I am,

getting by, doing pretty well. A lot of people, you know, around him were probably looking up at his career thinking, God, I wish I had that. And he's probably looking around going, God, I wish I had a savings account, you know, that kind of feeling. So Nick Lowe, his song, Peace, Love and Understanding, had a version recorded and included on the soundtrack to what became and may still be the best-selling soundtrack album of all time, The Bodyguard, the Whitney Houston. Oh, my gosh. So somebody cut the-

I didn't even realize. I've never actually seen The Bodyguard, so I never even- The Nick Lowe song is in The Bodyguard. So the story goes that he didn't really know that his song was in The Bodyguard either, or that the soundtrack was going to be a better- He didn't- Like, it was all to be a better, he didn't like, it was also like, maybe he signed off on it.

His manager said, Oh, somebody did a version. Is that okay? And he's like, yeah, of course, whatever.

So Nick Lowe goes out once the, once the soundtrack album is released, goes out to his mailbox in his, you know, in his night shirt, in his bathrobe, and he opens his mailbox and there's a check in there, in an envelope, from Warner Brothers or whatever.

And he opens it, and it's for literally, Andy, a million dollars. And he's like, what? I didn't know this was happening. And so we all, we all in my group of friends, in my band, we always talk about and think about what would make a Nick Lowe moment happen. And it's something like that. It's like somebody cuts one of your songs. Like I have this song, Question, that's on an album, Satellite Rides, from 20 years ago.

It came out right at the end of 2000. And the song, Question, on that album is me and an acoustic guitar, two minutes, like as simple as it gets. But it's wound up having this life of its own where people use it in, it's been used in some TV shows and commercials, but mostly people use it at their weddings or when they're proposing. It's like a wedding, it's an engagement song. Yeah. I've always thought some like country Nashville country star or some American idol, somebody would cut that.

Yeah. I would cover it. And like, it's one of the, one of those things is what at this point would make a difference. Right now I'm pitching a game show and it, I, I'm like so hoping that it goes because Hey,

I mean, I get to host it and I love hosting game shows and it's something that i've gotten to do and i never expected that i would be able to get to do that or beyond game shows you know just like i'm i get to be on game shows and like i remember one time doing a game show in new york and being in the building where they shot all the, you know, passwords and to tell the truths and truth or consequences and seeing photos of like Joan Rivers and Kitty Carlisle and feeling like I'm doing that. Like I'm, I'm really like a person on the TV,

like the way they were to me when I was a kid. But I have this game show out now and I'm like, so I just have this like complete fantasy of like, oh, and then they pick it up and it plays in Bulgaria and it plays in, you know, it plays in Singapore and there's a big, you know, Russian version and then the Belgian version gets, you know, just like, and then I can just then stay home and and go to the box

you know go to the mailbox in my underwear and pull out checks from you know you know from latvia from the game show that i created in latvia but you know it's also too i think one thing you know people that like will that will shit on a conversation like this and be like shut up and tune out and you're welcome to tune out if you want but is the you are around the possibility of monumental success when you do what we do for a living you're around it you see it happen you know people that that were like your peer who it happens to so it always feels like it's not like if i you know lived in peoria and was a ups truck driver that i would think you know which is it you know could have happened in some conceivable way it's not like i would be thinking like man i really wish i could make a gazillion dollars

because wow what what context do i have to feel that way but like you know i know some fucking multi-millionaires and i'm like hey wait a minute you know and some of them seem to fall into it you know and it's just like you know so it does it, yeah, it's a possibility, which is in and of itself, keeps you going, keeps you excited, keeps you engaged. And you know, what's so dangerous is that idea about who deserves it. Because this comes up a lot in, you know, with family and friends and something good. And this is hand in hand with Envy, right? Something good will happen to somebody. And then like somebody we know gets

nominated for a Grammy. And then somebody will be like, well, your new record is so good, you deserve a Grammy. And I'm like, well, if I got hung up about that, my life would just be like a series of disappointments. And like, I really, whenever that comes up, I have to take a deep breath and start, you know, just sort of rattling back through the work that I've done. And I'm so proud of it. And I've been able to feed a couple of kids and buy a house. But most importantly, I've been able to keep doing it. do you live a life where you're doing the thing you love, but also you do put yourself in a position where maybe you get to have a Nick Lowe moment. Maybe you get to sell your game show. I

mean, you and I, we've both been doing this for decades and it's been great. And if nothing ever happens to, you know, get us Latvian millions, you know, it'll continue to be great. But we're still in the game, baby. Yeah. Now, creating art for a living, because, you know, it's one thing when you're starting out and you're so hungry and you have all these things you want to say, you know, if you're lucky, I mean, you know, you have things to say. But, you know, you're writing songs and one is good. And then you so you do another one. But then as you grow up and like, you know, time slows down, you have children and stuff. What is it like when you balance kind of the magic and the,

you know, the beauty of making art with like, this is my job. I got to do this. I mean, you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but I mean, did you have moments like that where it was kind of, it was hard to sort of resolve those two things together? resolve those two things together? Oh, it's constantly, it's a weird juggling act. Years ago, John Bryan, who we talked about earlier, who produced my album, The Instigator, that came out 20 years ago this week, crazy.

Oh, congratulations. Thanks. I remember in the studio for that, he said, the worst thing you can do in a song is be self-referential. And at the time, I thought, oh, no. He just destroyed all of country music right there. Oh, no. Like Hank Williams Jr. and Waylon Jennings' entire career. Although, I mean, he said that, and then you go back and listen to the songs on his album,

Meaningless, and they're all very much about his career issues at that moment. Sure, sure. So we say things, and maybe that's not exactly true. So it took me a while to kind of get over that idea. And so years later, eight years ago, we put out a record. The Old 97s put out a record called Most Messed Up. And the opening track on it is this song that's the most self-referential song I've ever written. And it's called Longer Than You've Been Alive.

And it's just this, it's one of those millions of words kind of songs. But there's a line in it, and we sing it pretty much every night. And there's a line in it where it said, I won't lie to you, it's both a blast and a bore. And that's the job. That's like the nature of the job. And the things that are annoying about it, if you get hung up on them, you might as well just go get a proper job because proper jobs have a lot more security than this. But the things that the basement of this haunted ass club in Milwaukee. And it was the club maybe owned by the mob. And there's like a derelict swimming pool deep down in this basement covered in graffiti. Like the whole thing is just like ghosts, right? Yeah, yeah.

And I was working on a song and it was kind of clicking. And the whole thing felt so good. And it was so rewarding in a way that can't be quantified other than just me at that moment going, oh, yeah, this is why I like to do this, because it just feels right and it feels good. And I know if I were to think about what was next, it wouldn't be a Nick Lowe mailbox moment. It would be this song going out into the world and connecting with a human being who then would feel like they weren't as alone as they'd felt three minutes earlier. And that to me, that's ultimately the most rewarding thing.

Yeah. And it's nice when you can remember that. And when the Conan show ended in June, it was just hearing so many people, and it's always been the most valuable thing is young people serious about comedy telling me how much they meant or the show that I did meant to them and not in the Conan show and other shows that I did and work that I did because I remember like what, you know, what stuff that Steve Martin did and what Martin short and the people on SCTV and how meaningful those were to me that I feel, you know, really like that's, I'm very, very proud. Like that's the, you know, if I had to pick one thing that I'm most proud of in terms of like just the work that I've done in my, in my job life, it would be that. And it's also too, I often, you know, I'm one of those people that's like, I would like to do some drama.

How about some drama? Somebody give me a drama. But then I think most of the things that I do make people laugh. It's like the most obvious basic expression expression of happiness. And you get, and that's what I get paid to do. And it's just, it's kind of ridiculously beautiful and simple and great, you know? But again, like you said, Blast and Boring, that long Beatles documentary, one of the, it was like one of the most, the thing I loved about it the most, and I'm not even a giant Beatles head. It was the most apt representation of the creative process of a group creative process I've ever seen because there was so much boredom, so much

kind of getting on each other's nerves, so much like doing it over and over and over. And then something going, you know, slightly different going, Hey, wait a minute. And doing that improv groups I've been in that's movies i've done that's definitely like the conan show that i've worked on writers rooms on sitcoms there's so much like this bottom of this page needs two jokes and then you just sit there and stare at it for six hours, a room full of like 12 people going like, you know, what about something about a butt? You know, like it's just and then and but then it gets done. And it's that thing that makes people happy, you know.

And it's funny you talk about like Steve Martin, Martin Short, SCTV and all those folks and how when you were watching them, how much it meant to you and how inspiring it was. And my experience was the same. I remember when I was 14 years old, really grappling with these really heavy existential questions about the meaning of life and whether or not there was one. And that was the biggest problem for me was I kept coming back to this idea that there really is no meaning. I kept coming back to this idea that there really is no meaning. There's just the accident of your birth and then the flailing around and, you know, just killing time and diversions that make up a human life.

And then there's the accident of your death. And then there's nothing like the bleakness of it to me was overwhelming. And I wound up with a pretty serious suicide attempt at 14 years old. And when I came out of, they induced vomiting and put me under for the whole night. And I remember when I came out from under the whatever, when I came back to consciousness, I was singing a song. And I had this crazy moment of realizing, like, that's it. That's the meaning of life is that these songs, these people, these things people make, and give to the world, like these tiny gifts that we give to the world. And comedy, I really think is the same way. And any time somebody makes a piece of

art, and then they give it to the world as a gift. And sure, it's great if they can monetize it, blah, blah, blah. But the biggest thing is that you're giving a gift to the universe that comes from inside of you. And another person is finding joy in it and beauty in it. And that is the meaning. And I get that the meaning of life is service. And so sure, charity work and all these kind of things where you can help other people make the world a better place. But the creation of art to me is just that it's just another avenue to do that is to try and make the world a better place and make people feel less alone and so yeah so when when i look at the artists that came before me and i and i and i was saying like literally my life was saved by the work of these other musicians who I grew up listening to.

And so if I can just be a part of that continuum, then that's great. That's all I need. Well, I mean, you got a mortgage. It's not all. No, no. I mean, I went for the joke. I'm sorry. No, that's truly, that's really a beautiful way to look at it and it is like i also think too it's nice that you um the the relentless push of the universe

into making you feel like nothing means anything because it's just if you really look at it and you don't you know and you're not religious or spiritual or whatever if you're just kind of a cold-eyed cynic like me you know with a soft heart it is like you when you look at it's like what does anything matter like what is it you know like if my house blew up right now like yeah i'd make a few people unhappy but in 20 years you know it's just we're all just sort of you know the the sand or the ocean washes over and comes back and then it just keeps changing and shifting but it is when you do make something you're staying you know you are pushing against that that relentless kind of chaotic nothingness you are saying like it's like you're a grain of sand on the beach, but you're making a nice sound for a minute, you know, or you're shining for a minute, you know.

You know what it reminds me of is that beautiful speech that Conan made at the end of the show about cynicism. Yeah. And I got so choked up. And honestly, you know, to this day, I think about it all the time because that's to me, that's sort of what it's all about. It's like it's so easy to be cynical. And all those things that we talked about for the first however portion of the show, however long, where we talked about work and just how gross it can be and how hard and worrying about money and just all that shit. Like that drives us, me, that drives me towards sometimes cynicism. And I have to really catch myself and I have to find the beauty,

not just in the part of my job that I love so much, but, you know, also in my family and in my friends. And then each little dumb day, I have a day off in Milwaukee. I went and I played disc golf in a forest with some friends and, and the wind died down and there was a big bright blue sky. And, and I was so glad to be alive i mean that's that's it yeah that's what matters yeah it's true what is there do you feel like when you started out like what you got from making your art the thing like the real juice from it the real charge from

it is it the same now or has it changed over time like what you what you sort of get you know the charge the the high if you i don't know what else to call it you know yeah um it has changed but it's funny if something is essentially uh working the same uh super like there's something really fundamental when i write a song it does something really fundamental to me that makes me, I don't even know the right way to put it. It completes me. It does something really fundamental that makes me feel like, it keeps at bay the darkness, right?

So that hasn't changed. But the way I do it and the way I feel about it, it's always evolving. I think when I was really young, I used to drink a lot. I don't drink anymore. I used to smoke a ton of weed. I don't do that anymore. You know, I know when I was young, I think I was wrestling with a lot of demons. I have this funny theory about, and maybe this applies across all the disciplines, but when I think about songs and songwriters and the songs we write, I wonder if we're all writing one song over and over again, you know? And I wonder if there's...

You mean everyone's writing their own individual song? Yes. Like each of us has a song that we're writing. Like you have Rhett's song and Bob Dylan has Bob's song. Yes. And I wonder if it's something from our formative years or something even that isn't nurture, something that's more nature, something that's more genetically coded, maybe. But there's something that I'm wrestling with on a really existential level. And every song is some version of me trying to solve this riddle, right? And as I've dug into myself, I think the theme that runs most strongly through my songs is one

of abandonment, maybe. And so I wonder if it goes back to my own relationship with my dad. And I wonder if every song I'm writing, even if it sounds like I'm singing about a lover or whatever, but at its heart, if it's a song about I'm singing to my own father. It's hard if it's a song about, you know, I'm singing to my own father. These are, I mean, these are really like the heavy kind of weirdest, deepest things that I wonder about myself and anybody that does what I do. But so, yeah, this thing that I do, it's like there's an itch in the center of my back and I'm always trying to scratch it. And every time I reach and scratch, it feels good, but it never quite gets there. And I'll spend my whole life trying to scratch this one unreachable itch. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.

It does. And it's like I think about the same things, like what am I trying to say? And so often what I'm, you know, my work now is, like I said, it's game shows. And I'm not like working out a lot of personal shit and game shows. But there are times, you know, when I write things and I do look at them and I think about like, what am I, you know, and one thing I've always found like about my own stuff is like, it's the things that I like, like, I don't like, I'm like, I understand how good curb your enthusiasm is. Like, I understand it intellectually, but people fighting to me, why do I want my cortisol

levels raised when I'm supposed to be chilling out and having fun and laughing? And I think most of the things that I've done that I've had a hand in are about people getting along, are about people getting along are about people being funny with each other and their funniness based out of the things they have in common the things they do together the yes and of improv as opposed to the no fuck you of like lots of other comedies and and i and i you know i try and hold on to that and think like, how do I expand that? Because, and again, it's like, it's definitely like, there's a kid there that's just like going like, please, everyone stop yelling. Just please stop yelling, you know? Yeah. And always will be,

you know? And I wonder if that is what gives us our own voice, like as an artist. I think so. I mean, I would like to think it isn't just the ways in which we're hurt, you know. Yeah. And how we deal with that hurt. But maybe it is. Maybe it just is. And maybe, you know, I mean, even the most, like, it's so rare to run across like a really, like somebody

that's like, I never went to therapy and I don't need it. And, and you kind of get to know them and you realize, oh yeah, they're, they don't like, they're just kind of, it's so strange. And there's so few, they're like unicorns in my life. You know, the people that I've known like that, because almost everybody has those hurts. Almost everybody. I mean, I worked as hard as I could to raise two children who are 21 and 17 now. And, you know, they got issues that, you know, like there's stuff I didn't do right. There's stuff I didn't know. But, you know, nobody, you know, everybody starts it out from scratch with just hoping, you know, hoping they don't fuck it up too bad.

So maybe it's that there's always going to be hurt, right? There's no such thing as perfect. But in any situation where there's pain, there's always someone responding to that and modeling behavior that makes it better, right? And so maybe what we're doing is we're trying to amplify the thing that we saw that worked, the thing that we saw that made it better. And so it's not really like our voice is defined by the pain so much as maybe our voice is defined by the solutions that we saw working and that we're trying to now reenact for the next generation or for the people that consume our art. Yeah. Like we're showing learning, like, you know, touching something hot and burning your hand, never touching again and again, isn't being

obsessed with the past. You know what I mean? It's not like you're haunted by the stove. Like, no, you know, don't touch that. It hurts. And so, yeah, maybe we're just, we saw ways that fixed things and we're not stuck back there. We're just like, no, going forward, we know not to touch hot things, not to eat that plant because it'll make you sick. You know, basic survival stuff. We're not just not cooking with this plant that'll poison you or whatever, but we found these other things that are going to make you feel great. Like for me, like your comedy has always been so rooted in like sweetness and kindness. So it's not like you're, you know, working from a place of being damaged and then just converting that into cash or laughs. You know, you're taking the thing that you learned that is good and feeding that to people. And I think that's beautiful.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm curious as to what the difference between when you write a song, an old 97 song and a Rhett Miller song. Like, are there sometimes ones that you write that you're like, that's more an old 97 song? Or you write for the old 97s, you go, no, I'm going to keep that for me. I think I know what I'm doing. But the way it started was 20 years ago when we were making that record, Satellite Rides. I had all these extra songs.

And they were piling up from the last five years of our band. Because my bandmates are very ornery, which is great, because their orneriness sort of defines our sound. And without everyone having a really strong opinion, and it getting shoved down into this, hardened into this diamond, if you will, that is my band's sound. But there's a lot that gets cut away and left on the cutting room floor. And some of that to me is still good stuff. And so I was stacking up all these songs,

and it was making me feel like, listen, I don't want to, I can't, as we go back to maybe your very first question, I can't make these guys do what I think they should do. But I also am going to be really miserable if I keep having to just throw away all these good songs. So I asked those guys 20 years ago, would you mind if I make solo records in between band records? And they were very cool. And they said yes. And it was weird growing pains to begin with, because it coincided with the collapse of the music industry. And my first couple of solo records still had giant budgets attached to them. And there was still a chance that one of those records might, you know, blow up. And then that would be its own problem for

my band. But fortunately, that never happened. And we've been able to alternate between solo record, band record for 20 years now. And I've always thought that I could predict what songs they would like, but I don't know. There was a song called Another Girlfriend that I wrote that was on a self-titled solo record 10 years ago. I brought it into the band thinking, this is the ultimate old 97 songs. And they were like, meh. And I just had to live with that that's the way it that's just the way it is so i i can't predict it my main rule is that one exactly that yeah they don't care they're not here to make me happy um but so now the the only rule is i try and offer it up to them first because they're the ones that – I dance with the ones that brung me.

Right there are like my priorities. So I give them first dibs. And then if they don't like it, then I get to put it on a solo record. How do you feel about having kids that are leaving you? It's hard. Since we both have them. And it's just something i'm curious about with other parents and dads and stuff it's funny how it's true i mean that's why cliches are cliches

because they're just so true you know i i took max to university of vermont and i dropped him off and he is an adult he's an 18 year old man he was ready to ready to leave. He'd never lived in any room other than the bedroom we brought him home from the hospital to. Same bedroom. Wow. Every day of his 18 years of his life. Wow. Until we moved him to Vermont. And he's a man. He needs to spread his wings. And I miss him every day. I text him every day. And if he doesn't text me back, I just have to think, if we had had

texting as an option when I was his age, would I have been texting my mom back? Like, I miss you, too. I love you so much. I don't think so. No, I don't. Yeah. I tell myself that all the time. I think, like, when you were 21 and you were a junior in college, were you really, like, talking to, was I really talking to my dad every day or

wanting to talk to my dad every day? You know, like, I don't know. I had a lot of other stuff on my plate. But, you know, at the same time, I just, I miss him. It's, you know, it's the growing pains in life. There's some different stages when you, when you leave home, when you turn 40, when you hit the age that we're at now. And I remember the day after I got home from dropping Max off, I went to take a car into the shop, and I had to kill an hour. And I walked around our little town, New Paltz, just north of Manhattan, up the Hudson River.

And I was going to take a little walk, and the first thing I did was walk past the Little League field where Max had played as an eight-year-old. And I went and I sat in the dugout. And it was, oh, God, it was so hard making peace with not him moving on, but me. Like the question of who am I now? Like i've so long been defined by being his dad yeah and i'm still his dad but it's i have to i have to find my like what am i now what do i do yeah is that is that just daunting or is there also something hopeful and challenging and thrilling about it yeah i mean for sure it's both you know it It's terrifying, but the best things in life are terrifying. Yeah. Right? It's funny, the few times that I've gotten roped into,

you brought up improv, the few times in my life that I've gotten roped into doing improv or improv-adjacent stuff, there is nothing more terrifying, right, than that, than being out on stage with no script, no nothing, and you just make it up as you go. But, I mean, is improv not the greatest analog for just life? Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, the little bit of improv that I've done, I felt like I draw on that now as I work through weird moments in my life. It's, you know, it's the yes and of every day.

I want to say yes to life. Let's go. What is next? I don't know, but it's fucking exciting. Yeah, yeah. Can you describe where you want, say, in the next 20 years to go? Do you have an idea of what you'd like to happen i think about i think about that a lot because you know you have to make plans as the nest empties

as um you know as as careers evolve into later stages it's funny there's not a single article that gets written about the old 97s that doesn't describe us. And this is a great word, I'm not complaining, but we are now always legendary alt country band. And I'm like, wow, so I'm legendary. I don't feel... You're like Perseus. Yeah. I don't feel legendary. Yeah, yeah. But it's, yeah, so you have to sort of figure this out and reinvent yourself. I do dream a lot. Ever since I dropped out of Sarah Lawrence after the first semester of my

freshman year, I have had this goal of writing long form fiction. And I still have that goal. So I still like to write. I've been, you know, putting out, I've put out now a couple of kids' books, which is really sweet and fun. And it exercises this whole other muscle, which kind of takes it down to being really basic and sweet and rhyming. And like it's a narrative, but without the heaviness of expectations, you know, like a novel. Right. But I do. I just, I want to keep writing songs. I want to keep playing gigs with my band.

I want to branch out into some other forms of writing, maybe longer form fiction. There's been some television writing that I've been able to do recently that may see the light of day. It's just so fun. It's so great. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Just, you know, breaking stories and creating characters. Yeah.

And it's funny because it all seems, when you're starting, it all seems like it's so different from the thing that you've always done. But it turns out that writing in the same way that writing songs wasn't that different from writing the poems that I was writing in high school, writing kids' books isn't that different from writing songs. And writing longer form fiction, short stories, and maybe eventually something even longer, or the television stuff that I've been collaborating on, it's all kind of the same muscle. And thank God, because I didn't want those 10,000 hours to not, I didn't want those credits to not transfer. It's great that those, you know, the work I've put in in this one discipline also is useful now as I'm learning how to expand into these other

disciplines. But I guess my goal, my dream would be to just keep getting to do what I'm doing. my goal, my dream would be to just keep getting to do what I'm doing. And then maybe add to the list of hyphenated other things that I am able to participate in. I also want to have, I want to establish and then evolve and deepen the relationships I have with my kids as they, you know, as they grow into further adulthood. Because that's a hard thing. That's a tricky thing. I don't want to be a birthdays and Christmas kind of dad. I want to be the dad that they call when they're making a big decision, or when they're just even having a tough day, or just when they're bored in line at the DMV. I want to be a part of their lives on a daily basis. So, and that's, I think that's something you do have to really be conscious of and deliberate about.

Because if you just let it go, I don't know what will happen. But I, you know, you don't want to be pushy. But I also want to really be open and loving on a daily basis to them. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for all of this time. I really appreciate it. You know, you've got Milwaukee lying before you, waiting to be Milwaukee'd. You know, don't sleep on Milwaukee.

This town is actually- I know, it's a great town. Pretty great. There's some- It's a lot of fun. There's some sleeper towns out there. Milwaukee, Pittsburgh. Everybody knows Austin. Everybody knows Nashville, Seattle.

Okay, we all knew that a long time ago. Milwaukee. Yeah, yeah. I think Pittsburgh is pretty great. Tulsa's pretty fun, too. I like Tulsa. And Memphis, I think, is fun. I had good times in both those towns, yeah.

All right. So the final question. what have you learned? I'm asking you to boil it all down to one thing that you really kind of carry with you that sort of helps you or sustains you. I feel like it all comes back to kindness. I feel like it all comes back to kindness. I think if you try to be really conscious about the people around you, I mean, without sacrificing your own happiness, perhaps, but if you try to make kindness your priority in your interactions with the world around you and the people around you every day,

it's going to show up, right? Like in the end, kindness will prevail. And that doesn't mean that the secret to becoming a millionaire is by, you know, going around being nice to people. It just means that if you sow the seeds of kindness in your life, they will bear fruit that will make your world a more beautiful place. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I've always been struck by people who aren't nice to people, especially because they think, whether it's even in a

personal relationship, they want stuff out of people. Whether it's work or whether it's even in a personal relationship, they want stuff out of people, you know, whether it's work or whether it's love or whether it's attention or whether it's focus, you're going to get that stuff so much better. If you're nice, like, you know, like every boss that's been an asshole. I just have always felt like, you know, if you said that in a nice way, I do it much better. And we'd all feel better about it. Well, Rhett, thank you so much for this time. It's great talking to you. I haven't seen you in a while.

I haven't talked to you in a while. And good luck on the tour. Say hi to the band for me. And the new album, Misfit. Check it out, people. You know, and do it in a way that Rhett sees some money. How about that? Andy, this is so great.

However that is these days. When my publicist asked if I had anything I wanted to do during the campaign for this, you were the only person, this podcast was the only thing I specifically requested. Oh, gosh. So happy it worked out. And I just, I think you're great. This has been one of my favorite interviews to do. I really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you so much. And thank all of you out there for listening. We will be back next week and I will be talking to somebody who I probably like less than I like Rhett. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco production. It is produced by Sean Doherty and engineered by Rob Schulte. Additional engineering support by Eduardo Perez and Joanna Samuel. Executive produced by Joanna Salitaroff, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Maddie Ogden. Research by Alyssa Grahl. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe to The Three Questions with Andy Richter, wherever you get your podcasts. Can't you tell my love's a-growing?

Can't you feel it in his showing? Oh, you must be a-knowing. I've got a big, big love. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.