The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Stephen Malkmus

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Stephen Malkmus joins Andy Richter to discuss Pavement’s latest reunion, fatherhood, 1980’s radio rock, the high school suspension that won’t leave Stephen’s Wikipedia page, and much more.This episode was recorded on June 15, 2023.

uh hi everybody andy richter here uh with another episode of the three questions and today uh i am zooming uh with stephen malchmus uh the uh lead singer uh you know um i guess uh major domo of of pavement yeah the boss the pavement boss uh front man of pavement and then you know and now a solo artist although you guys are getting together to play. Let's get these plugs right out front. Four shows in Brooklyn in September, right? Yep. Yeah. Kind of the last cherry on top of a tour that started last spring.

Yeah, we're playing there. We're playing two more festivals. We're playing in Iceland. Nice. Niceland. I know they wouldn't mind they wouldn't mind some more people coming to that so it's going to be incredible yeah and uh yeah what a salesman that's right we're supposed to like well how is i mean you know you guys broke up in 99 was it yeah we just yeah we sort of consciously decided to uncouple uncouple at

the millennium outro yeah totally and you know just it sort of made sense after 10 years of working together just to make it a decade-long thing and then you, every 10 years, roughly, we've had a reunion and it's sort of, you know, catch up with each other and catch up with the fans and get paid. I mean, is it good to get together? I mean, and does it, does the length of the tour, is it a good length of the tour or is it it like it's like two months too long and there's the last two months everyone's hating each other this one not so uh we learned from the last one which we went really hard it was i think it was in 2012 or 11 or 10 i can't remember but it was we went a little too hard that time and it gets some of the uh some of the memories of touring and it being really extreme were starting to come back in. But this time, it was more mellow. And also, everyone in the band is so grateful and psyched to be there this time.

Because I don't know. It's just probably that you just kind of remember all the good stuff and we're still friends yeah and it means a lot to all of us and i imagine it's fun to play all those songs too yeah it is it's fun and it's kind of a silly but uh yeah to see that they still still have resonance with people and they mean something still um in other words like it's been a people have liked it and it's been positive you know like it hasn't felt like a reunion tour that is uh people don't want or don't know. It's not a puppet show in Spinal Tap. Yeah, it feels pretty real.

And that's a tribute to the guys in the band primarily, the kind of people they are and stuff, and I am, I guess. But also, it's just some of the people in the band don't really play music anymore in a live setting at that level, at the very least. And so there's this kind of joy and surprise in a way that I can't believe I'm up here. Pavement's always had that, and it's one of our whole cards really and going to see us live yeah you know my philosophy of doing tv has always been if you're having a good time the audience it's going to make the show better you know like it's it's good to watch people i mean unless you know unless it's i don't know moliere or something yeah yeah were you doing something serious yeah yeah i mean who but

actually i think he's comedy but i whatever my references are falling apart but um yeah unless it's something super dramatic it's like it's good to watch people having fun and especially it's good to watch happy people that are enjoying each other's company too totally and probably for some of our audience although we have don't get me, we have lots of young fans, but I imagine that some of the people that are coming that we can call it nostalgia or we can call it just memories that are a good feeling of the past and what you were doing, where your life was when you last saw pavements. All that kind of emo stuff comes flowing through yeah and that's

a positive in a in a reunion situation or it's inevitable but it's definitely there do you think it's also too just the sort of basic thing of age mellowing you all like do you think being older helps just to be kind of put things in perspective and keep things nice? Yeah. It's just like an older guy that's still partying so hard or like desperately holding on to youth. It's going to be kind of the I'm just saying the flip side would be kind of, uh, not maybe not ugly, but just kind of desperate. And,

um, yeah, yeah, we have perspective, you know, we have kids, most of us, and we have lives that are,

that have grown beyond just, uh, you probably know this when you were first starting on TV and stuff. That was all you did, all you thought about and all you did and there is some of that there's still like a i'm not saying there's not a passion but if there if it was that way that it was all you did and all you cared about at this age you might be like that's that's great but also you know it's nice to have a more developed fuller richer wide variety of things that you care about but mainly caring about something other than yourself

which is like yeah which is very normal when you're younger yeah yeah well it's also too you know it's it's it's nice to have a life because then it gives you something to write about. You know, I mean, there's so many, that's why there's so, you know, people talk about it just because I went to film school and people talk about, you know, people coming out of film school now. They didn't, they've gone to film school. And so what they end up doing is making movies about movies. That's true. And, you know, I i mean there's music that's about music it's you know just kind of yeah i mean it i i turn the page you can only write that so many times that's true although i i do inevitably uh still can't help uh writing music about music.

Because I'm such a big fan. And music is one of those things. I mean, I would think art and acting, you want to, I mean, your influences are so transparent eventually. And there's a lot of love and humility in acknowledging that you know that you're not making a new wheel or whatever reinventing the wheel yeah yeah yeah but you're right it's uh you definitely to make it um special or make it more than just that that's that's what you want so yeah um and that kind of experiences

and perspective it's true yeah we need that you uh i mean on this podcast i don't know if you've ever heard it but we kind of you know it's sort of autobiographical yeah you know um and uh you grew up in stockton california yes and what Stockton? I mean, I've been through Stockton, but I don't know what life in Stockton is like. Well, it's kind of a suburban city that... To San Francisco, to the Bay Area. It's near San Francisco and Sacramento. It's environmentally, it's hot and flat and it's close to everything it's one of those kind of places like you drove you've been through there it's it's close to the Sierra

Nevadas it's close to San Francisco it's on a delta a man-made waterway that's a delta for agricultural ships come in there but it's kind of like a agricultural service economy type place and i mean it's always in economic peril in terms of like businesses leaving and poverty and uh it just has kind of a rough, from the very start, it was a place for itinerant workers, farmers, immigrant workers, and just maybe you'd you could hypothetically commute to San Francisco or to Sacramento if you wanted to have a more white collar job. So, yeah, it's true. I mean, it definitely has a melting pot atmosphere, all different kinds of people. That's one of the um positives and that's one thing that i was kind of grateful for it's just not particularly homogenous in terms of population

but yeah that's that is good it's sort of dark i mean people leave i don't know where you're from but it's the kind of place that a lot of people want to leave, at least in my social milieu, they're planning to move to another place as soon as they can. God bless it. Well, that's what I was going to ask. I mean, were you happy growing up there? I mean, did you like living there? Yeah, I liked it.

I mean, it's where I was from. Yeah. Did you like living there? Yeah, I liked it. I mean, it's where I was from. High school was very kind of American graffiti style, but the 80s, I mean, it was football and cars and cruising. And, of course, why I'm here is from a music standpoint. It was during the hardcore and punk era. That was sort of ubiquitous across California. So most of my friends, we sort of gravitated towards skateboarding and juvenile punk rock music.

Of course, I had all the earlier influences. I liked Van Halen and Rush and Devo and and def leppard and well i didn't like def leppard but they were quite popular there they were on the radio all the time they were massive and yeah and just kind of you and i are about the same age yeah you're a few months older than me oh cool yeah that's great yeah so you know what it's like i I do. I do. Like I've often mentioned that like going to a party, like I just have a memory of going to a party that was just high school boys and one kid drunkenly moving the needle back on Janie's crying just over and over and over. So we were at this party and like I heard whoa, whoa, whoa for like 10 times. Wow. He was an early, you know hip-hop looper i don't blame him i i love van halen and uh yeah they also kind of had some creed they had some cool with the punk people there was there was definitely

a crossover of what you would put on your skateboard. You could have Aerosmith underneath because you would get, I got like clear duct, this clear grip tape you would put on your skateboard in the middle and you could put a, yeah, like a Devo thing or Aerosmith. There was a crossover because you couldn't really escape that hard rock. Yeah.

Well, and also, yeah, I mean, all the other stuff wasn't even like, you know, they weren't the classics yet. They were sort of like, who knows how long. Yeah, that was just kids music, you know, loud and snotty. And I was pretty into it. Yeah.

Journey. I mean, Foreigner, all these things that are kind of supposedly not cool when you're young you're just into it you know yeah yeah yeah uh i uh what did you did you have the the thing happen because i kind of did where i started to get into punk and new wave and then started to eschew the other kind like it wasn't until i was an adult that i had to really uh out myself as like of loving acdc yeah especially bond scott acdc but at the time it was like i could like acdc but i wasn't going to go around crowing about it you know like i was fine with them they're one that they they were also you. They were marketed as a punk band. It's hard to think about that. But in 78 and 79 when they came out, I mean, they were a rock band, but I just rememberer. And there were some bigger. And also MTV really, I don't know about you,

but that was just like this huge thing. And it really piped a certain songs at you. And through this, there's a feeling. It was just the same thing always. And I just got a repulsion for like things that weren't even that bad like michael jackson or madonna without hats madonna you know and bruce springsteen you know i just have that's those are the kind of things that still kind of i can't maybe a song or two i can like but i there's some kind of ptsd with having to see just the utter repetition yeah um it made me like viscerally dislike it and I don't think I can ever go back you know it's a little it was a little like uh

Clockwork Orange you know with the eyes and just like keep playing it Can't you tell my love's a crow? When did you pick up a guitar, first of all? I think my grandma gave me like a soft string Spanish style acoustic guitar. Just kind of sat in the closet. And I got pretty serious. I mean, I joined a and when i was in sophomore in in high school and that's when i got more into it yeah i didn't i had a few classical lessons from a guy and i had a few lessons from uh one of my mom's, she was in this thing called Earhart Seminar Training Est.

It was sort of a proto-Scientology. I mean, it was related to this self-improvement movement of the 70s. And one of her buddies from that was kind of a coffeehouse crooner. And he taught me some lessons, too. That's where I learned some rock licks, you know, or just chords that weren't the bar chords. Other than that, yeah, I just started and I pretty much started right as I hit puberty.

Yeah. And you also, I have on my notes that you were a troublemaker too. You got jailed for public urination. That's still there on Wikipedia. Do people change their Wikipedias? You can. Yeah, I never bothered. I read that like 12 years ago.

It's pretty funny that that's like a defining moment. Well, I was prom king and i've been asked about no way i was asked about being prom king about i've been asked 275 times about being i can see that i can see you doing that as this being very uh verbal and clever too and incredibly handsome um thank you thank you you know that that totally makes sense well yeah i mean i was popular because i i'm desperate to be liked right now and we'll do virtually anything to have people like me uh i know well at the time at the time i i of course being me and being i don't know you know from my gloomy stock that I'm from, I looked at it as, well, if you were on the homecoming court in the fall, you couldn't be on the prom court.

And since there were five on homecoming, I was like, well, that makes me the sixth most popular person rather than just feeling good about it. You should have just, yeah, that's true. I had to minimize it in some way to make myself feel less bad because it's what I do. I relate to that. I'm from dour German stock. Yeah, German and Swedish. That's, I like to say, angry and depressed. You know, the best of both worlds.

I hear you. There's also something about you getting expelled from school you got expelled like really they really like to uh yeah so that that was in uh i went to well this is the stuff that this podcast is all about like i got you know i was on um i went some of my parents thought that it would be a good idea for me to go. They wanted the best for their kids, and in kind of classic sense, they thought the way out was through education. So they had me go to this school in Southern California, a boarding school,

and I really didn't want to go. So I was just coming out of eighth grade and you know i had my yearbook with my eighth grade yearbook had all these incredible like lines from girls saying like you're such a fox like see you next year can't wait yeah i was just stay sweet yeah there was a lot of sexual tension there. I thought I maybe could cash in on stuff. But then they sent me to boarding school. And so it was primarily kids from Southern California in the Bay Area.

So I was like not the farm boy, but comparatively an outsider. But it turned out, I mean i i loved it was incredible place um it's just magical what town was it in carp santa barbara it was near carp and um it was like on a hill it was just magical um kind of like an east coast prep school moved to the West. Yeah, it's beautiful out there too. Yeah, it's so amazing. So I had a lot of fun as all boys, which was a little bit of a downside.

But then the second year was co-educational. They switched over. So anyway, yeah, there was sort of standard partying going on as it has been through eternity at places where there's nothing to do, and you're a teenager, and you're trying to be cool or define yourself and stuff. And so I got on probation for one. I got caught drinking at this thing, and then I was on probation,

and then I showed up at another party. Evidently, so they're like, you know, it's kind of like a primitive three strikes you're out type scene. And I went to this thing. It was an event. And supposedly there were like mushrooms, one of the, uh, their day students, and he had got scored some mushrooms. And again, no one was tripping you know they were just simulating being eating i mean i don't remember anybody tripping i didn't even have any yeah and but then somebody else got in trouble it got like out that this party happened and uh somebody they had a kind of Gestapo-style headmaster that he could just get all the information out of you very easily. He had Doberman pinchers and stuff. But he was like a preppy Nazi in some ways.

And he was like, you must talk. And so someone, I got fingered. Or they were like, he was there. which I was, I think, I don't even remember, you know, like, and then he said, like, you got, I heard you were there. You have to tell me, you know, like, we'll go easy on you, you know, and I didn't have any like quality legal representation, you know, so I didn't, I hadn't watched these YouTube videos that say like don't talk to the cops you know yeah ask for a lawyer he didn't even read me my miranda rights um and so i said yeah you know i was there i didn't take any of them you know so and then they just said like you can't come back in the in over christmas break so it was pretty traumatic for my parents. And was it traumatic for you? I mean, did, yeah, I mean, I wanted to stay, I was having fun, you know, it's like, it's like a playland of just, there's a beach there and you can take mopeds and like, wow, it was unbelievable.

But, uh, so yeah, then I was back in Stockton, back in public school. Yeah, yeah. And that was that's and in retrospect, all being said, luckily, I didn't die in a car accident or a drug overdose or something, which could have happened in that town. It was a little dark that way, but I survived that. little dark that way but i survived that and because of you know i got to be in a punk band and i had much more diverse friends and stuff economically at the very least uh it turned out you know to be good in the long run but yeah you know life takes its turns so that's why that's in there yeah um were your parents like were they when you came back home and now, you know, and now it's like, you're in a punk band and you know, you, you're the, you, the kid that got kicked out of the nice school.

And now you got to go back to the, you know, public school. Were they worried about you? Like, was there sort of like a cloud of worry around their attitude towards you? I don't know. Probably. I mean, i was worth worrying about what do you mean by that well you know i was in a punk band and like partied and yeah it was a little bit wild uh i wouldn't say i was like just insanely the bad kid, you know, but. Right. I think they were probably normal, normal worry.

But, you know, I also could keep it together with, you know, I could talk the talk. Yeah. And just be like, it's all cool. I got this. And I did all right in school. And eventually I went to a university and all that. and all that, you know, they, they just wanted me to go to school and go to college and do what they did. Um, how now you have, you have teenagers now.

Yeah. I mean, do you, how do you deal with them if they, you know? Well, unfortunately they're pretty perfect in that way. it's a real drag i don't get to yell at them yeah they're just uh i don't know the generation or what i mean it's just a different vibe you know where it's like basically sober here in the house and and uh i i just don't see these kind of problems of like drinking at a party and you drive home drunk. They wouldn't do that. I just, they wouldn't do that.

I don't know. It's just not in their friend group. That's just something you wouldn't. I think in the 80s, we were a little more of the Wild West out there for the kids, I guess. little more of uh the wild west out there for the kids i guess you know i don't the kind of stuff that we did which was complete understandably stupid they don't they realize that do you think that's a difference of stockton stockton and portland no i don't think it's because portland has i mean i've heard some really terrible stories from friends. Portland teens.

Yeah, different schools, you know, fentanyl pills and pregnancies and all that shit. It's still going on. Yeah, no, it's like out here, my kids went to L.A. private school. And you hear stories about like, oh, that one, that one's where everyone's a stoner and that one's where everyone's, you know, kids are high all day. And that one that they got a lot of cocaine at that one. And then it's like my kids, they're, they're pretty mild, you know? I mean, they, you know, they're not, I wouldn't say they're sober, but I do, you know, like my daughter's, my daughter's 17 and she's kind of like yeah i'll have a couple

beers but she's like i don't like weed i don't like the way it makes me feel and it just okay i'm in the same zone there's a little bit of social marijuana is legal here and and in california which is great you know in my opinion um yeah yeah you meet so they they uh i think some kids you know they do a little bit of that is gonna be way better than downing a 12 pack of schaefer you know yeah i would have done yeah schaefer good old schaefer right um you went to you uh You went to Virginia for school. You went across the country. Yes. Was there a reason for that particular school?

Yeah, my dad went there, and it was the best one I got into. Yeah. I was frankly sort of surprised that they accepted me, but there was just kind of no doubt that I would go there if based on my opportunities. I mean, I could have gone to the UC system which would have been fine I think I got into Santa Barbara and um yeah I was just like this is kind of a no doubter and so that was great I mean again totally blessed thanks to my parents

amazing place beautiful beautiful campus What city is it in? Charlottesville. It's a mountain town where Thomas Jefferson was based. It's all based around him. He's like the king there in a way. His architecture and the positives about him, his intellectual curiosity and things like that are really stressed. And so, yeah yeah it was amazing

like so beautiful the hills and so i was sort of dropped into uh yeah i was like the california guy from it was somewhat unique back then um because a lot of kids from Virginia, it's a public school, I'd say it's like 80% kids from Virginia and then some of us interlopers. But yeah, I mean, that was a total blast. Just like really got to see a lot of bands. They all came through. It was sort of a golden time because I was into music and some college radio. I guess I, and my intellectual pursuits were, I wasn't really, in kind of junior year, I got a little more serious.

I was like, whoa, I'm going to be out of here soon. I should try to focus on something. So I did history. On the school part. Yeah, I didn't really do much. That's another thing I feel like is different. My kids, one of them is going to school next year, and she seems to be like, oh, it's expensive,

and I want to get something out of it. I'm not just going to. That'll probably change when she gets there. I'm not just going to, that'll probably change once she gets there. I mean, I would say that's half of school is socializing and being on your own and, you know, kind of a safe, in a way, if you can afford it, safe way station between adulthood and individuating from your parents fully. between adulthood and individuating from your parents fully yeah but i consider it a total you know like bless that we can afford that and have that little break you know what i mean it's not that way for everyone yeah um did you i mean while you were there did you know it was music at that point like for you that you know that that's what you would do for a living no you know no i can't imagine i mean i'm sure for you i don't know if you've already thought you wanted to be an actor

or a comedian but it's no i thought it but i didn't really believe it could happen yeah you know i don't think you can it seems like saying i wanted to be an astronaut or something it's like yeah if you're not you don't get to do that. Los Angeles or something where you have examples of people that, you know, you worked in, your parents worked in the industry or something. It's got to seem a million miles away and people would be kind of laughing at you if you really thought you could, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So, no, I didn't think so. I mean, there was going to see some of the bands that we saw at that era, the smaller college rock, whatever you want to call it.

It wasn't too far away. Maybe I could hope for something like that, like to open or play some shows at a small venue, I guess. But it wouldn't have been something that I thought I could. Yeah, because also, you know, there was the kind of people that seemed to be making money or only doing it. Rock stars were kind of metal guys, right? You know, just like long hair and spandex.

And I wasn't going to do that. So, yeah. Uh, yeah, it was a million miles away, but it wouldn't be, uh,

honestly, I would like to see that though. You with in a hairband look, that'd be pretty sweet. I, you know, I, I would do it.

I've, I've got the build, the classic build. You do. Yeah. You're skinny. You got that skinny rockstar stuff. Steve Vai, Steve Vai and me. I've got the build, the classic build. You do? Yeah. You're skinny. You got that skinny rock star stuff.

I got those Steve Vai memes. Well, you also, you are a DJ. So, I mean, was that something you thought maybe you could do? You know, get into radio? No, that was just a fun thing. Also, I have my voice is not, you know, the voice when you hear it. It's like someone's got a voice for that. Yeah, that was just fun.

That was just a way to socialize and hear music for free and be with your friends. Get free albums and stuff, yeah. Yeah, it was like, again, I don't know what I was going to do for sure at that time. I was blissfully unfocused on what kind of job. I mean, I think already I knew that I was going to maybe move to a bigger city and get a shitty job, even with my nice diploma at a restaurant and then just kind of like figure it out. You did kind of a classic post-graduate backpack how long was that

well my mom did that too when she got done about like 10 months or something i lived on a really cheap i like lived on donor kebabs and yeah like for a year almost i, I went to the Middle East and I went to all these fun places. It was, yeah, I don't know. I just effed around for a while. It's hard to imagine doing that now. I went on a vacation by myself for a week. When pavement, I went to Malaysia and Thailand once for two weeks. And it was was like maybe I was 30 or something. And it was like the most worst time by myself. I was like, I thought it was going to be fun. And then after about a week, I was like, this is terrible.

But at that time, younger, I guess. I mean, I did start with a couple buddies but I guess when you're more open to socializing with random people or just like hey you want to go to this town let's go yeah did it have uh you know like an effect where you feel like it affects your work or you know your attitude about life was it was it really formative in that way or was it just kind of like a fun it was yeah pretty much i mean i got this i can't you can't say entirely either way i mean going to uh egypt or as a young person by yourself i mean there's some self-reliance built and going out and seeing different cultures.

I mean, it's pretty mind-blowing when I think about it. But at the time, not to be a classic American tourist, but at the time, half of it, I think I was checking off places to go to. It's like, oh, I went to Syria. This is... Yeah, i saw the pyramids yeah yeah there's some of that but i mean i was probably just delaying delaying decisions about what to do in the future i mean or what's gonna happen or being a grown-up, yeah. Yeah. Are you, during this time, and I mean, just writing songs, like when do you kind of start seriously writing songs? Before that, in college I did.

I wrote some. I started, a couple of friends gave me some confidence. I wrote songs in the punk band. I wrote jokey songs about murder and suicide and communism and fast food, whatever. And the stuff of life. Yes. And then when I got, well, school you know we were all fans and we had some jam bands and noise bands and and then a couple friends said like hey you i noticed that you're

good you know like yes that's what it takes i think i don't know if it did for you somebody i don't know if it's a mentor or friends that say, actually, you have a talent or something. It's hugely important. Yeah, you can just go on doing stuff. If people say that you don't say anything at that level, you're not going to have a teacher to tell you. So it has to be your peers. it has to be your peers yeah and so i was like oh maybe maybe there's something there that i can like be a leader in this or something so yeah yeah people you know there's a lot of talk especially with young people it's all you know you got to believe in yourself and no matter what anybody

says you got to keep going and i've always felt like no no you need some feedback you know like you need yeah this is especially if you're in in something that's communicative you know it's you know it's gotta you gotta get some feedback and i i did i had that like you know just like little moments at a theater where you know they gave awards and i got an award and i was it's you know it surprised me it surprised me. It surprised me. Like, wow, people are really noticing that I'm good at this thing. And, and I, I think that's really important. And I think, I think it's totally worthwhile to let people's opinions about your work of, you know, have an effect and to sort of formulate that.

Yeah. Sometimes it can be bad though someone says right if you're really young they're like you got a shitty voice it could like totally scar you which it kind of did for me and i really did yeah like a guy in a band said like your your voice is like awful so we were like an instrumental band but But I think, yeah, in the end, it's sort of like when you come, I came from a pretty norm core background, I mean, in a way. Like, you know, we're not like big artists in my family. We have artistic leanings.

I don't want to like, in retrospect, I see them. But it's a little more like you will be a banker or an insurance agent. And so it took some time. And also, there's probably a little shielding. I was probably weirder and more autistic or something than anyone would really tell me. So it took some time for me to like or some you know no i've almost felt like i was like shielded or something that i was like odd or

some odder than i thought i was you know so took some time for that to come out i guess now when that settles in i mean how do you deal with that if If you're like, you know, I'm weirder than I thought I was. Well, you know, you just, well, I guess you just realize that maybe music's a good thing for you. Yeah. Because certainly, I mean, when you see the, I think we all, you know, when we look at the music people that we admire, you know, they're like not entirely normal

let's be honest no you know they're like introverted or fucked up somehow um just well now when a guy told you that he didn't like your voice you became an instrumental band when people told you hey you're weird did you try to be normal in reaction like this you know like no it's maybe me coming to that oh i see more i guess it was more like i was like wasn't an intervention of your friends yeah steve you're a weirdo yeah yeah i was just like maybe maybe it's also like finding your people yeah Yeah. It's a huge thing. I thought I was like this maybe. And now I'm getting on with this crowd a little more naturally or something.

Not that I just didn't get with some other kinds of people. I don't want to be judgmental. other kinds of people i don't want to be judgmental but you know it's like oh i'm going with this slightly more artsy like damaged uh damaged people that's where i belong yeah yeah um so and we're all good you know you find out and also you find out everyone's i mean not everyone but you know everyone's more fucked up than you thought they were too. That being said, you know what I mean? In different ways. But at youth time, there's a lot of posing and fronting. Like, I'm a frat boy who's just got everything sorted.

Or you kind of see things a little more black and white at a younger age. And you also believe in the power of other people more than just dumb people front, and you believe it a little more. It's like, I'm a loser. I don't have the best girlfriend. I don't have the best grades. I'm not the quarterback or whatever.

Now, while you're in Europe, were you still writing songs while you were there? I already had made you know actually scott that got ahead of things before i went on that trip i had made the first pavement ep with a buddy from canberra yeah a guy from stockton that was like cool guy from stockton scott who had similar i mean i was at virginia with some butt friends and maybe relatively getting some more esoteric influences and kind of a big brother style thing i don't know if that happens for you but you're some older comedians or actors are like no you should go this way you know like yeah you know that's pretty good you know i don't know who i would say is like some mainstream comedian you know like actually

this is the real shit yeah no i mean yeah no there were people certainly i had uh elders comedy elders for sure it wasn't any like one particular one, but it definitely there were groups, you know. Yeah. You kind of develop your own scene and your like ideas. So I came back with some of that and Scott was on a slightly different voyage, but definitely could relate to what what I was dealing. So, yeah, we just kind of made a record. We just wanted at this time, you know, instead of making it sound good, we were like, let's just make it wanted. At this time, instead of making it sound good, we were like, let's just make it sound. I was like, let's make it sound as bad as possible.

Really fucking weird and inscrutable and unintelligible. Let's go that direction of our interests. Instead of trying to please and like write a nice song let's just make it sound like it got stepped on 40 times with stiletto heels and and uh rolled through niagara falls you know and then like pick it out pick the tape out and release that so was that was that intentional or was it just instinctive was it just kind of like i think this would be a fun way to do it or did you want it was fun and there was also like uh it was sort of inevitable because of like our abilities too but it was like leaning into that leaning into

that and so we made that first single and that's when I went kind of just imagining that that would be an artifact that we could. And it was pretty cheap to do. It's like maybe $1,500 all in for the two of us to record it and make this single. So I just sort of dropped that big that big hit and like went went on the road to find myself or something yeah um but then when i came back there had been some positive uh back in the day there was um before the internet kids um there was like a fanzine culture. There was a lot of people writing reviews, just fans, and making their fanzines the same way we made the record. So they had an edge to them, editorial vibes.

Not so different from some blogs these days or those days. I don't know if it's Substack now but people would write you know and create an atmosphere with their and they would use the bands as a starting point for their prose or whatever the fuck they wanted to do and also comics and stuff so we we did that and we got you know some validation there just if even if it was like a paragraph at the bottom of a zine. And so we were like, okay, we got a vibe here. Let's do it again. So we did that two more times. And generally creeping up in confidence and fidelity and like songwriting, then I was sort of like, well, if you like that, I can do that.

And I was like, that's good, but I can do more. And I can make it a little catchier in retrospect. Just sort of coming out of your shell type stuff. Or just hiding a little less behind the noise and static. And the vocals are getting a little louder, a little clearer, all that stuff. Can't you tell? You know, as you sort of evolved as a songwriter, did you like do you have do you have a notion of like what your themes are, like what you're trying to say? You know, I mean, because like if somebody asked me, like, you know, I'm asking you this question.

If somebody said, like, what are you trying to say with your comedy? I'd be like, make people laugh, you know, I mean, with my personality. um make people laugh you know i mean with my personality and but i mean do you think there's like there's stuff that you're getting out through your songwriting that you could tag that you could name or is it just kind of it's kind of subconscious yeah subconscious stuff made public you know it's like there's a vulnerable side to it that is you yeah, you don't exactly know what. I don't really think of it that much. If you're talking about the lyrics, I actually try not to. And that's sort of when it's the best.

I have done really formal things. And I have crafted things that I didn't really want to say anything. I just wanted it to be cool and good, you know, in my mind. But back in the day, even then, it was a little more, I mean, it's sort of when you have a, somehow when you're able to just turn it off and make it about in that room and in the sound of what, what you're doing at the place and not think about anything like that. I mean,

it's, it's going to be better, you know, I think, or it's going to also, you will not, it won't overwhelm you and make you think about what this all means. That's like going to be a kind of a problem.

I think in music you know if you're thinking about that stuff some people they know they can like capture the ethos of the times but you know the fact of the matter is other people have to decide that not you so like you're not really probably gonna succeed it's also gonna probably be a little cringy or something if you try to do that. Right. Yeah, I know. It's, it's, you know, when people ask you like, what does that mean?

It's, I, I agree with you. It's kind of like, well, you tell me what that means. You know, like you tell me what the, what the underlying theme of what I'm doing is because, you know, once it's out of, once it's out of my mouth, it's yours, you know what I mean? Yeah. What you do with it is up to you. I mean,

I'm sure, you know, probably in your heart when you make a good thing, whether you said something funny, you're like, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that happens, but like before it comes out or something, I don't know if you do, you know what I mean? It's like, you can't like, it's out or something i don't know if you do you know what i mean it's like you can't like it's sort of there is a you can't like say this is gonna be funny like before you do it so it's gotta let your mind like move from things and of course there's all this

interaction with your environment and your friends and there's plenty of stuff you don't release because it's not good you know like there's all that I'm not saying it's all just like comes out you know there's definitely you try things and it doesn't work you just like scrap it um yeah I don't know because you thought it was good I don't know and it what it's not you listen to it comes out of the speakers you're like you get that kind of down feeling yeah it's like but you know just like let's move on there's more yeah there always make more always make more yeah you know pavement was you know i mean like yeah you don't know but i mean you know it's influential band, you know, like a kind of a band's band, the way they talk about a comics comic. I feel like Pavement was always a band's band.

But there's other people that, you know, that hit it bigger, you know, like they got more radio play that, you know, that kind of, you know, are gazillionaires. And how do you feel about that? You know, angry and jealous. Well, that's good. At least. Yeah. That's why we're out here right now. Get what we deserved. Yeah. Yeah. This reunion. I don't know. There's mistakes. Mistakes are made on the business side and it's a tough business showbiz, as you know. Yeah. So the fact of the matter is we just have to be really grateful we got what we got. There's a lot of timing.

Even the fact that, in a way, you know how I was talking about, we were growing slowly with these records. And I don't know today if you would get that it's hard to uh get that amount of attention like there's a lot of sound clouds there's a lot of a lot of people doing the same thing not that there weren't then but i think there was less yeah um and so or you just never ever heard of them yeah yeah and this because of i don't know if it was just the economical thing with like actually being able to get in a studio and record or it's they sort of just hypnotize you that it was impossible like we were talking before that

you couldn't be in a band. So there was just, I don't know. Now it's more affordable to make records, and therefore more people are doing it, and there's so much information. So I feel like, going back to what I was going to start, is I feel pretty grateful that we got what we got, that there was an audience and not to say what i was doing wasn't special but not to make it all the way to the to the top is um okay you know yeah we made it pretty far for like doing it ourselves and in some ways we also didn't, not that, you know, there is some BS you have to deal with at a higher level. Yeah.

There's some you would know from famous comedians that are more famous than you probably. Some of them like it, but some of it, even walking around, this being so famous, I'm not saying I, I wouldn't maybe mind it, but I also know it might not be that great. Yeah, no, it's, I've always, you know, like I can go to the grocery store and, and there's people that I know that can't go to the grocery store and it just stressful and bad. it's like, I don't want that. I don't want that life.

You know, I've said often, I heard once, I heard Steve Van Zandt on Howard Stern say that he realized, like, he likes being number two. Like, he doesn't want to be number one. You know, he was the front man of bands and you know and he but he said it's just so much better and i relate to that so much just being next to you know being conan's tv wife for years and years and uh and because it

really and it also gave me an appreciation for what it's like to be the spouse of a famous person because that's true yeah so often i would be places and it would be people talk about like rave about the show and then like as if i wasn't even there which i didn't resent i just found it like a fascinating phenomenon that you know i watch the show every night conan and i'm standing right there and then they hand me the camera to take the picture you know so but i mean it's yeah it's it's i i'm so glad in many ways and like you say it's like yeah i'd like to have some of the stuff that comes along with being bigger but there's also you know there's yin and yang that's it's plenty like Every time things get good, there's some extra shit.

There's shitty shit that comes along with it. Yeah, and it's not even glamorous stuff. Everyone wants to talk to you and sign your names. I'm saying, yeah, that's annoying or something, maybe. But I'm saying there's all this other stuff, just small stuff, like glad handing behind the scenes yeah like all these things you you have to do yeah i think to get that you can kind of like we are in a you know or it's just like the tours something as small as the tours

like we i do tours in small smaller venues and we kind of control our own thing um you know we have a small crew and it's just like kind of nice yeah you know to play smaller venues and just the smaller team and less just big thing behind you so i'm i'm happy for that and you know if i do think everyone in their mind would like wonder what it's like to be just you know everyone saying that you're amazing yeah and everyone knowing who you are and like having a bigger house i mean obviously that's yeah that's cool i'd be down with that. But yeah, not ever worrying about money. That would be sweet.

Yeah. Right. So I understand. But also, I think it's cool where it's how it's worked out is I mean, I definitely can't complain. I have friends in the arts. My wife's an artist. And it's like it's brutal, you know, like to get a foothold. Yeah. Well, to just make a living doing something creative. We've got to do that. And yeah, it's brutal, you know, like to get a foothold. Yeah. Well, to just make a living doing something creative.

We've got to do that. And yeah, it's a victory. Totally psyched. And the fan, I mean, I meet people all the time that are the people I like my audience too. That's helpful.

Which is nice. Yeah. I guess. I don't know. That could be scary or bad. Yeah. If you didn't. Yeah. That's, you know. That could be scary or bad if you didn't. Yeah, that would be very Donald Trump. I know, dude.

Well, now, is there anything you kind of have left undone going forward? Is there something you've left undone? I don't know. I think always chasing... Because this is primarily about my art, music, and my public life. We're talking a little bit about personal stuff. But on that front, I think of still chasing another record, another just right way to do it. Not with obsession obsession but yeah still trying to find i'm still like messing with music that way and thinking like yeah this is what is the right

feeling how am i feeling what do i have left so i think that's still that's still there is it pleasing yourself or pleasing other people or a combo? Like what are you striving for? It's like being with other people, I guess. It's more like sharing something with whoever the players are and like creating a, yeah, it's not just for me. It's more like, you know, you do it together with the people you play with and you make a human bond

with them i think still i mean i because for me it's uh yeah i don't want to play i only want to play music with like people i like yeah um uh you can have maybe one wild card session guy you might not know or something you don't have to like him or something but like it's sort of you know you do it together and you yeah you all are like we did this because it's sort of uh yeah the victory of it is with those people just like the pavement or any soul it's like you really do you know you all kind of know the musician people it's like hanging with musicians and finding your, your people. I don't know.

I'm still into that because I have, yeah, I have friends and. Well, I'm here to say you don't, I think you're lying. I have friends and family and what they do. Like that's,

that's even supporting, supporting them. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's about it. When you see, you know, rockers, you know, 72-year-old rockers on stage or approaching 80, like, do you see yourself doing that too?

And, I mean, how do you feel about 75-year-old? Yeah, that's one of those things where you don't think about yourself doing it you just look at other people doing it you kind of got to uh i mean times are hypothetically it could it's i would have thought when i was a younger person i would just be like that's like those old guys what are they doing you know like just like give it to the young people like let them you know pass the torch dude yeah but now i do also you know i do i do like to see i mean i do like to learn from some of the old guys what they're able to do it's sort of impressive yeah and maybe maybe with the internet and the which has made people some of the things that about the internet that could make you very uh self self-aware can actually

be like a good thing yeah you know maybe back in the 80s no one's you just are 90 you just have like yes men or people just don't like you're amazing just keep going out there and you don't get any feedbacks like you're like actually kind of sucking or you're why are you playing like these songs these new songs no one really wants to hear with this guitar tone or something like there's just a little bit like people are like doing these things right some yeah some of the things where when you're old and a little bit out of touch let's face it you've got some help there from the internet or your help or like your people are reading the internet or something you know they're a little intelligent so maybe we're getting a better product yeah well i you know to me it's like that's customer feedback right there even even trolls are customer feedback yeah you know i just don't feel like there was as much of that

back then you know there was just you're like white and rich and famous and go out there, whatever you give them, it's going to be good. Yeah. Um, yeah, I bet like the Fleetwood Mac reunion is better now than it was in like 89 or something type thing, but who knows?

Well, and Lindsey Buckingham isn't there, so they probably are all a lot happier. That's true. Well, uh, yeah, I've kept you long enough uh right we got this

huh i'm gonna yeah well there's i gotta wrap it up with the big and you know the wrap-up question which is what have you learned like what do you what do you want people to take away or what i mean or what's the thing that after all of this, you really felt like, wow, this, you know, I found this out. I mean, I probably said a lot about that already. I just haven't wrapped it up. There's been a lot of learning in this talk. That's the idea. You'll get my bill.

Yeah. You start with the music and you might think it's all about you and yourself. you might think it's all about you and yourself and in a certain way, some of that is necessary to just even put your voice in the arena. But yeah, like the, who you're with and everybody that helps you, like how, um,

how that is, you know, like I just maybe just a little more aware of everyone else's efforts in everything whether it's like they came to the show or drove a while or you know they helped make phone calls for this interview or just like being a little more aware of that um maybe when you're younger you're just kind of you know like you're just like your parents just make the food and it's there right yeah yeah and the dishes are miraculously done yeah or something um clothes just end up folded back in the closet yeah so maybe that's all you know also getting older and actually doing that

for other people it's more about that um yeah yeah no i mean having children parents i mean you're kind of laughing about it but that's all like really beautiful stuff you know i mean because you do early on you need to be kind of nuts in terms of your self-belief to even get out there. I mean, even just like the basic notion of getting on stage in a dark room with all the lights focused on you and everyone has to shut up and listen to whatever you're going to do. I mean, that's, that's hubris, you know, it's ridiculous. And then, but then as time goes on and you realize like you know that shit it's big it's sexy it feels good but it's like it doesn't last it doesn't it's not going to sustain you and it's a long life if you're lucky yeah so you're like sharing you know it's just like you kind of realize

people are they're investing in it too and it's not like they're taking from you they're kind of realize people are, they're investing in it too. And it's not like they're taking from you. They're kind of giving, you know, like some, there used to be like Kurt Cobain or something be like, they're eating me alive or something up here. You know, like that was sort of the vibe. Right. But once you make it through, you're like, oh, we're all, you know, we're all playing our part or something slightly. Um, well, that's pretty good.

Yeah. That's enough. Right. Yeah. That's plenty. Yeah. That's yeah. We'll count that. You, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's enough, right? Yeah, that's plenty. Yeah, we'll count that. You've completed the essay portion. Well, Steve, thank you so much. No problem.

Steve and Malchus, everybody. And again, you're going out with Pavement again. You're wrapping up September. And then I also have something about an experimental musical biopic concert film about pavement. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's in the works.

That's in the works? Yeah. There's a movie being made about pavement. It sounds cool. I like that it's part fictional, too. I do, too. Yeah. I mean, I give the credit to the guy. I i mean all i know is it's not half-assed

well that's not saying a lot a lot of people try it is actually yeah a lot of but there's a lot of mental energy and like labor i see it happening so and it's it seems like it's kind of risky it you know it's like maybe it's it's one of those things it's i mean i'm all for it it could be just bad or good you know it's not just okay yeah i mean i don't know if the guy wants me to say that but i threw he he they would uh like agree you know what i mean it's like take a swing you know see what happens that's what it seems like to me it's younger some millennial guys that are doing it and like that it seems i'm i'm written for them yeah it's a movie i don't know when it's coming out but uh well that's got to be fun to be like what the you know there's a movie about sure you know about you and other things

but it's like it's coming out and i'm it'll be a fun surprise to see about you know what they do with your life you can't get to uh have you had any documentaries made about you yet not about me in particular i mean we did when we did a conan tour in between the tonight show and the tbs show and we went on on tour for a while and and there was a documentary about that tour. Yeah. There was a little documentary about that. So, um, but no, nothing, you know,

nothing. I, I'm, I dwell in obscurity now, mostly, which is not so bad. Not to me. I know who you are.

All right. Thank you. I'm saying, yeah, you're a legend, you know, in our opinion. So thank you.

Yeah. I mean, I didn't even mention we, I interviewed you and I, my producer found the Raygun magazine in May, 1997. I interviewed you. They had the crazy fonts. Yeah. I, I, I mainly just remember thinking just Bob, uh, Nisanovich is such, you you know like lives across from churchill downs and just lays the horses and now i think still has a tip sheet right he still does yeah he's still in the horse industry that was amazing to me like wow that's a gambling addict yeah you know he's

like and i guess you would say what do they call it when you, you're just high functioning or something, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, he's got it under control, but still. Yeah. No, I mean, it's just, it's an amazing, he's the only, you know, he's the only person in rock with a tip sheet, with a racing tip sheet, you know? He's allergic to horses, but he owns them. Oh my God.

Ridiculous. That's hilarious. All right. Well, Steve, thank you so much. Thank all of you out there for listening. And I'll be back next week with more three questions.

Right on dude. The three questions with Andy Richter is a team Coco production. It is produced by Sean Doherty and engineered by Rich Garcia. Additional engineering support by Eduardo Perez and Joanna Samuel. Executive produced by Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, with assistance from Maddie Ogden. Research by Alyssa Graal. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe to The Three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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