The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Tressie McMillan Cottom

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

Author and Sociologist Tressie McMillan Cottom joins Andy Richter to talk about growing up as an only child, being known on TV, her New York Times column and more!

hey everyone uh it's andy richter and uh this is the three questions yet again uh i am very happy to talk to um well an old pal of mine. We've been online Twitter pals for a number of years now, usually talking about Dolly Parton or country music. Like, really? Truly. I mean, she's a sociologist and she's a genius and everything, but we mostly just talk about Dolly Parton. But she has written some amazing books. Lower Ed was a book that she wrote

about the for-profit college industry and Thick and other essays, which dealt with, I guess, intersectional feminism, racism, all those kinds of issues and how they intersect. And you are a provocateur and now a fancy pants opinion columnist for the New York Times.

How about that? Congratulations. Thank you very much. I'm talking to Tressie McMillan Cottom. Do people just go Tressie? Yes. Do you just go full Cher and be Tressie? I don't know if I can go full Cher, but that never stops anybody from trying to go full Cher.

Right, right. I say with a name like Tressie, the other two are just, you know, overkill. Yeah. Students, friends, colleagues, everybody. Tressie is just fine. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so happy to have you.

I appreciate it. And you're you're you're speaking to me from your home in North Carolina. That's right. I mean, I don't want to get more specific than that. All right. Keep it. Listen, I work at a public university, but thanks for thinking of it. I would tell you. Yeah. No. So I think it's you know, I think it's one of the best places in the country. I will not kid anybody about that all day long. I love it here.

Yes, I'm in North Carolina. It's home for me. I grew up here. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a beautiful state. It is. It's a it's a really beautiful state. South Carolina. It's a beautiful state. It is. It's a really beautiful state. I used to vacation a lot when I lived on the East Coast in South Carolina, which is a very different place on the coast from the interior. Yes, it is. And mostly we stuck to the coast.

But even then, we went to dinner once at a restaurant there. And I was with a friend of mine who is of 100% Greek parentage, and he had kind of long hair. And the mayor of the town, and we knew he was the mayor because he had been in the July 4th parade. As we walked in, loudly said, what the hell is that about a Greek gentleman with long hair? And I felt like, have you never seen Travis Tritt? Like, why are you so shocked by a man with long hair? South Carolina is beautiful and they make you pay for that every minute you're there. That's my thing about South Carolina.

I'm like, you know, Hilton Head down around the islands area, absolutely gorgeous. It could not be to me anyway, culturally more different than North Carolina. It's one of those weird things. You know, we're all the same thing, you know, as North Carolina. But culturally, listen, once you see all the golf shirts, you're just in a different kind of space where they really had not ever seen a man with long hair. Yeah. So now you're I was surprised to see you were born in Harlem.

I know. To my great shame. Right. Yeah. That's probably why I over overstate that North Carolina is my home. Yeah. Yeah. Was that what were your folks doing in Harlem at the time?

And that's a great question because I'm writing about that right now, actually. Truly, like how did a good North Carolina girl end up born not just in Harlem, Harlem Hospital? I mean, the middle of, you know, the cultural economic center, basically of the world when I was growing up, certainly. And certainly for like black America is just the middle of everything. Right. And that is because my grandparents have been part of the great migration that moved millions of Black people from the South to the North

and some parts Midwest and West. And I was just the last of the, you know, last of the Mohicans there, the last one born there in the city. And then we start, like a lot of people. We started the reverse migration when I was young. So, yeah, I was always there's a Hank Hill episode where Hank, you know, the quintessential Texan discovers that he was born in New York City. And I've never identified with something more because he's so deeply implicated.

His whole identity like falls apart on him and they've held it from him his whole life because they knew he couldn't handle it. Because, I mean, I say to people, nothing felt more Southern than Harlem in the late 1970s, early 80s when I was growing up there. It really did.

I mean, everybody there was from North Carolina and South Carolina, you know, with a sprinkling of like people from Jamaica, but everybody that for me, it actually felt so much like home, what we called home here in the South, that they didn't feel culturally distinct. But that's how I end up in Harlem. Yeah. And what age did you guys head back?

Did your folks head back? I was quite young. So I think I was, I had not started school. I know that. So I think it's about four, four or five years old. And my mom likes to tell the story. I mean, she's an unreliable narrator. So, I mean, you know, we take her the greatest salt.

They really are. Yeah. Motherhood and memories, man. I don't know what happens there. I mean, you know, we take her the greatest salt. They really are. Yeah. Motherhood and memories, man. I don't know what happens there. But she likes to say it was the summer of Sam because apparently that freaked her out. And she said, no, we've got to get, you know, my baby out of the city. And she says that's why she moved back. It's a good story.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, are you an only child? I am. It's a good story. Yeah, yeah. Now, are you an only child? I am. I am an only child. Yeah. They were like, we've done enough. Yes.

We can stop now. I like to say, this is an ongoing, long standing joke with my parents. I like to say, oh, you had me and one was enough. And they're like, yeah, we had you and one was enough. That's enough. And they're like, yeah, we had you in one was enough. That's good. Now, as an only child, did you,

did you grow up missing siblings? I mean, did you ever feel bereft of what you didn't have? Yeah. It's so weird. I don't think I even quite understood like how I'm still a little confused, actually have siblings work. So sometimes I'll meet someone and they've got what is to me, a lot of siblings, actually how siblings work so sometimes I'll meet

someone and they've got what is to me a lot of siblings like four or something and I'll go do you know everybody's name uh and it's just I really didn't quite and I think even as a kid didn't get it what I do remember is asking my mother for a twin sister oh you know before people explain how that worked I do think I wanted like somebody. I was very keen on somebody being the exact same age as me. Right. I just wanted a permanent buddy, which now sounds very sad. But I did. And we had when I was growing up, those dolls that were like life size. And I remember thinking, oh, that's that's that's it.

That's cool. Now that I'd be into that. So I don't think I asked for sisters and brothers so much as I was just like, you know, can you clone me? I'd like somebody to go through life with. Give me somebody to keep, you know. God, give me somebody. Yeah. Somebody. Somebody to talk to. That's not you. A physical representation of my self-regard how about that I know it said that's what I said it sounds extremely narcissistic but you just got to understand I just wanted somebody to trade stuff with yeah yeah no it's I mean it is kind of you know I had an older brother and and and and you know we we'd spent forever together but we're very different people but you know, we we'd spent forever together, but we're very different people. But, you know, just having somebody there was great.

And then when my mom remarried, I got a brother and sister who were nine years younger than me, which meant that I learned to diaper at nine. There was no there was no question about whether that's right. Help. You're going to help. You know, so which is a baby skill that serves me well up until i think that's so important for guys especially i always think it's strange now when i'll meet a guy and he's like oh i've never held a baby and i'm like what how i i don't get it either yeah i don't i mean well i i i also too i grew up in kind of my folks' divorce when I was young. So I feel like I grew up and I think we actually talked about this once. And when I say talked, I mean, I mean, DM'd or whatever.

I grew up with women. You know, we moved back to my to my grandmother and grandfather's house. And in my grandmother and grandfather's house, it was my grandmother and my grandfather. Oh, yeah. You know, it was. Yeah. So and then and with my mom, I just I always just kind of identified more with women and the women that were around. So with my grandma, that was cooking, you know, that was cooking.

And then kind of, you know, and then as my mom, you know, after the kids came is like, you're you need to know how to scrub a toilet. That's right. You know, that's there was no cleaning lady. So it was it was you were put to work. And I am it's one of the things that I mean, my kids can cook, but I don't know that my kids have ever cleaned a bathroom. No. Yeah. I would be surprised to be fair.

Parenting changed a ton during your trajectory. Like, again, as somebody who's now thinking about this and trying to be like really gracious of remembering how my mom raised me and like what was even available and what the options were. And when you look at that time period, I mean, your kids wouldn't understand. that time period, I mean, your kids wouldn't understand. I mean, we say this of every generation, but I think my mom understood her mother's generation better than the children of my peers now could understand us. Yeah. Yeah. Because being a child just became so different. So see the same thing. Like when I was growing up, you know, big extended family, my grandmother was there for a while and grandma, grandpa in and out, great grandma, even and cousins and all of that. Everybody just did whatever needed to be done. So there was no like child job or, you know, if you were big enough to pick up the tool needed to do the thing, you do the thing. But now I can

look at like, you know, my cousins and stuff, you know, the younger people in my family. And it's not that they are back is they're amazing kids. They're interesting and funny and good and kind, almost too kind. I'm like, don't y'all ever just like do something like that. But they're really kind kids. But they wouldn't know how to do half the stuff I knew how to do at 12 if I paid them. Yeah, yeah. They just, you know, they're over scheduled. First of all, they got so much to do half the stuff I knew how to do at 12 if I paid them. Yeah, yeah. They just, you know, they're over scheduled. First of all, they got so much to do.

Yeah. They don't have time for all that stuff that we did. Yeah. Well, my son's 21 and I think about he's never had a job and I've been working since I was 13. Same, buddy. Yeah. If you count, I mean, and even before that, if you count going to the plumbing shop with my stepdad and selling old men pipe stems, you know. Yes, that counts.

And traps and things like that. But yet, and I don't, I don't, and I was never one to be like, you'll do what I do. You know, but I do look at it and I think, when would he have fit in a job in his growing up? Like when, between the amount of schoolwork that he had and the amount of just life that he had, where, where would he have put in, you know, gotten a job stocking produce at the grocery store? Yeah, no, no, it wouldn't have happened. And all of that stuff and none of that stuff was it sounds extra. I think when you like read about it, like, oh, well, yeah, they're doing soccer in the cross and they should be done.

But when you look at it, like living it again, I, you know, I look at my friends, kids and young people in my life. That stuff is not extra. It is quite literally the stuff they do. You would almost have to work harder to like pull them out of that to like get them like my first real, you know, my first paid wage job like you had was always doing stuff. My first wage job was at Wendy's. Yeah.

And it's like, you know, yes, I learned some important skills. Don't get me wrong. I actually think I learned everything I needed to know about life on my first shift at Wendy's. And it's like, you know, yes, I learned some important skills. Don't get me wrong. I actually think I learned everything I needed to know about life on my first shift at Wendy's. But would I pull kids out of their universe to go sling burgers at Wendy's? I'm not sure I would. Like,

yeah, I'm not sure it's worth all the work it would take to extract them from that really complex life they have to like go get those skills. At the same time, them never having work makes me feel like a dinosaur and I'm against that. And I'm torn by it, too, because there's part of me that I have always said it's one of the most important lessons in life that will prepare you for this life is you have to learn how to eat shit. That's right. Learn how to do this unpleasant thing.

Yeah. And not only that, but be have somebody that is beneath contempt telling you how to do it. And, and you have to just shut up and do it because it's your job and you're getting paid to. On the other hand, do I really want my children to have to submit to eating shit? No. I didn't go through all this therapy so that they could start from scratch where I was.

And then how do you explain that to them? Like, listen, listen, I love you so much. I'm going to go drop you off at a place where everybody's horrible and your whole existence for four or five hours is going to be to take a lot of shit for people. Like, it's just, again, you can't really justify that. You know, it's the scared straight method. You remember they tried that with us, you know, scared straight. And I don't think that ever worked on a single soul. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I think, too, I think it's also part and parcel of. There being a. A huge difference just in terms of. The. The involvement of parents like the stuff that i don't mind there was a pta meeting like twice a year or a parent at your conference twice a year yeah that was it now it's every you know i mean i'm talking to la private schools you're expected to do all this kind of extra stuff and people do it and if you

don't do it people notice like there there would be kids in the third grade class who this man would come and you'd be like who is that and they're like oh that's the dad you know that's jeremy's dad and you had never seen jeremy's dad and everyone would be like, oh, Jeremy's dad really needs to buckle down and get in here and, you know, hand out cupcakes. But I and I think that's also part, our generations, very we it became important to not be miserable. And yeah, yeah. Do what it takes to not be miserable. I feel like my my parents and their parents being miserable was being awake. You know, that's right.

That's right. No, I clearly remember my mom saying to me, not angry even, I just remember her looking at me like weirdly once. I mean, I think it was maybe between high school and college. I think it was maybe home, you know, in that little gap area before you go off. And so feeling myself, I wasn't quite gone

and was talking about, you know, all the stuff I was going to do and how I was making my decisions about what I was going to do in college. You know, just stuff I'd heard from everybody, you know, I was going to double major in that and think about this and blah, blah, blah, because I want this option, you know, I want this freedom to do blah, blah, blah. And she's staring at me, one, like I'm an alien. And she's like, so do you think your life is about being happy? Not angry, but like never occurred to me like let's talk that through

and we weren't the first i don't think we inherited it because we didn't get it from them but i think we were the first to hear the message the today's young people and i think mostly to the good i think this is mostly a good thing. Care about their wellbeing and their mental health in a more holistic way. They certainly have more words to talk about it, which I just have to think

is a general good trend. Like, yeah, some people can abuse the words, but it's always better to my mind to have more words than fewer words, you know, for your experience. And I think

that means they're never going to quite understand us. And maybe that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's fine. I mean, I remember. Daytime television, just even like the junk psychology of daytime television of, you know, what you'd see, you know, these, you know, like Dr. Phil,

there was always something about Dr. Phil was like, you're going to come in here and in an hour, you're going to undo years of just trauma and viciousness and hurt and anger. And, you know, and then you, it's like, well, it's, we got three minutes left. You better, you better, you better fix them, you know? and then it's like, well, we got three minutes left. You better you better hurry up. You better fix them, you know. Yeah. But it at least did create something where you'd see men talking about their feet, especially men talking about their feelings in a place where they never did before.

You know, whether there had to be this kind of stoicism. And I think, you know, it went over into women, too. And just to learn that kind of language, the kind of language of self-reflection and of analysis, you know, even a watered down version of analysis. It can't be bad. It can't be bad or as complicated as an animal as we are for us to know a little bit more about ourselves that's my thinking too and you know and i'm one of these people who you know we can critique critique that stuff to the end of time and i'm with you like i think yeah sure we've gone overboard and you know dr phil gave us dr oz and we probably didn't want that and like i get it

at the same time i'm like, I think everything that we can label as a negative consequence of those phenomenons that, you know, daytime television and sort of like junk pop science and everything. Yes. You know, does that mean that some people slide into the occasional cult? Okay, sure. And, you know, and do you sometimes go too far and think that you're, you know, the center of the universe? OK, but guess what? All of those things happened before, too. Yeah. Yeah. And so we create people who are stymied by their own compulsive self-reflection. Yes. You know, like people that go nowhere because they're so busy spinning in a loop. because they're so busy spinning their own wheels. In a loop, absolutely.

But you know what? I think you have those people regardless and that you end up having far more people who just like in regular life can now say something like, you know, I thought I was angry, but I'm not, I'm sad. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a pretty good trade-off all things considered, yeah.

Right, or this was done to me. It made me really unhappy. It caused damage. I'm not going to just keep doing it because I looked at it and I took it apart and I untangled the knots. And I think I'm not going to hand that down to the people. I'm not going to, you know, you either if you're hazed, you either continue to haze or you stop the cycle. That's it. And that's a huge thing.

Oh, gosh. I say all the time to people, I use the hazing metaphor all the time. And I go, you know, the thing about being hazed is there's a moment in everybody's life where you got to decide if you're the last person to be hazed. Yes. And I just want to be the person who is strong enough in myself where I can say I'm all right if it means I was the last person. Yeah. That was wrong. And I'm not going to keep it. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. Now, you know, go ahead and relieve student debt. I don't. Exactly. That's exactly the way I use it the most. I go. Well, this is not.

Yeah. If this, you know, we're not in a fraternity or sorority, everybody. It's it's all right for you to change the membership criteria. Right. You got here. You paid a price. It doesn't undo the price you paid. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Let it go. We're getting back to your childhood. What kind of kid were you? Oh, were you were you a handful? Were you a handful? And also, I mean, you now are paid to have opinions officially.

Officially, yes. Were you sharing them at a young age, like maybe a little too much? Or were you keeping them to yourself? I mean, you know, I think like every, especially every successful woman I have ever known has one thing in common. We all got the report card that said, talks too much in class. You know, all satisfactories or whatever your thing was. And then that one little in my world was a you. Unsatisfactory. One you.

You know, talks too much in class. You know, I was definitely that kid especially certainly earlier uh i remember getting that report card because i remember it clear as day actually my parents sitting on the sofa mothers live it because anything less than perfection for my mom right it's an opportunity um and my dad's going you know we know what she is we know who you know we know where she came. We know who, you know, we know where she came from. Like, you know, let's chill. Would we expect anything other?

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, I was, yeah, I was super verbal. I mean, obviously, right. And I come from a big, big family of readers. And so I was an early reader and a big reader and nothing more determined who I ended up being and who I am in the world than that. Like, you know, and I was before, I like to say I

probably wouldn't be the same person now because now we have a concept, the concept of age appropriate reading. That was not the case when I was a kid. It was, so I was, I mean, I got, I mean, I read crap. I mean, everything from my grandma's Harlequin romance novels to Stephen, I mean, the Tommyknockers, who am I trying to say here? Stephen King. Stephen King, way too young, way.

Flowers in the Attic. What the hell were they thinking? Yeah, all the kids read that. What? All the kids read that about, you know, like. And we passed it around. Oh, it was a big deal. I clearly remember the girl who gave me the copy of Flowers of the Attic in school.

It was contraband and made it all the more exciting. So, you know, reading way beyond where I should have been, but what it gave me, like we were just talking about, it gave me words and probably too many before I knew how to be a good steward of them and all of that. Now, my mom will say that I was extremely outgoing and all that, but I remember being more introspective than that. And that's probably about perspective, right? She saw me at home, but in school, again, only child was really used to an adult world. I was always easily overwhelmed by a lot of kids because I didn't understand the dynamics. You know, if they had siblings, they knew how to interact with each

other. And here I, you know, I was basically like the kid who was like introduced themselves. Yeah. You know, he came in the second grader who like shakes your hand. You know what I mean? Like that little freaking weirdo hung out with adults. Yeah. Yeah. So I was completely unprepared for school.

And in fact, I remember about middle school, which is when, you know, I now know that's when it happens. You know, your personalities come out and clicks start to happen. I remember one teacher telling my mom, well, gosh, it's just so quiet, you know. So we're always so surprised when she turns in her work, you know, it'll be really good. And my mom was like, oh, it's quiet. But, you know, I was a little overwhelmed by the social dynamics of it all. social dynamics of it all. Yeah.

Yeah. It also, I think part of being smart is knowing. Well, it's knowing it's knowing your capabilities. It's reading a situation and knowing this situation is one in which I should keep my cards close to the chest. Right. You know,

my room, I waited tables at Casa Lupita in Naperville, Illinois. And later, when I became a comedian and was on TV, I bumped into a couple people or, you know, was people from there reached out and said, this is amazing. You never said three words. And I said, well, I sort of felt like Casa Lupita was not the place to let it all hang out. Casa Lupita was not your place. No, all hang out. It was just not your place. No, it was just a place to sling the chips and salsa and go home with my. That's right.

Yeah. Yep. So I have now, you know, every TV is weird, by the way. I don't know how you do TV. I find that to be just as like a it's just strange. I think television is so strange. But every time I'm on and I don't do a lot of it because I think it's just strange. I think television is so strange, but every time I'm on, and I don't do a lot of it

because I think it's strange, but every time I'm on, I get what you probably get all the time, but you know, there'll be that sudden influx of people from back home who see you on TV. And it just happened recently. Somebody from like a call center,

I worked because I was the queen of call centers for a while there there that's how i paid for everything in the early 2000s and um uh oh i saw i did everything in a call center i've been your insurance agent your health benefits person i've been your eop person at your job i have uh oh got back when your car was really new for your car you know the serious or whatever in your car on Onboard, star, onboard. I was that. I was a 401 operator. I've done all of it. And so somebody from a call center, you know, from my call center, you just see me on TV. And this guy, he's like, I think you used to be in the cubicle next to me.

And he's on the page of the TV show having this conversation with me. Yep. Oh, I think you're the girl who was in that show having this conversation with me. Yep. Oh, I think you're the girl who was in that cubicle right next to me. You had the troll on you. I was like, yeah, got it. Yeah, that's me. That's me. I had the same thing the day after Late Night with Conan O'Brien debuted.

So it was a Tuesday. I was in my office at Rockefeller Center. The phone rang and it was a guyuesday uh i was in my office at rock and roller center the phone rang and it was a guy a kid from high school that like i you know i knew i was on a football team with him but we weren't close friends or anything he said hey is this you i said yeah it is and like he'd gone to the trouble to look because you were you gonna look that's what i was gonna ask how did you how did they call you at the show? 411, I guess, and say, could I talk to NBC in New York?

But I obviously had to probably go through four receptionists to get to me. And it was pretty much, was that you? Yep. Oh, cool. All right. Well, good luck. Okay, thanks. Bye.

All right. It's so weird. I don't know. That never happens to me. Listen, I can write a whole book that never happens you can be on radio you can do that tv though tv man it's still you know the gold standard for coming into people's homes and it just trips people out in a special kind of way um that i just find overwhelming and really interesting. But yeah, it happens every time I'm on TV

and it makes it clear to me that I was, who I remember being is quite different than how people probably experienced me. Yeah, yeah. Can't you tell my love's a what did you have trouble i mean being intelligent did you run into trouble in high school and stuff with teachers i mean it seems like you know intelligence is a thing that's that's you know you're in school the idea is to achieve in school but i found sometimes like being smart was not,

you know, it was a challenge to people. And I think, especially as a girl, a smart girl, there's a definite qualitative difference between that and a smart boy. Absolutely. And that's what I remember. So like, it wasn't like a, you know, it wasn't a John Hughes movie, right? They didn't hate the nerds, but I was definitely not, you know, like you just mentioned being on the football team and truly something.

Oh, he's a football team like that still works on me. You know what I mean? Like there was just such a clear hierarchy. And like so like I wasn't a cheerleader. I wasn't on the dance squad, although I tried out one year. hierarchy and like so like i wasn't a cheerleader i wasn't on the dance squad although i tried out one year disastrous i don't know what got into andy is the most to this day one of the most embarrassing things i've ever done in my life i somehow got the idea that trying out to be on the dance squad was a meritocracy and that you just had to go and be really good. They would recognize your heart. My God! Or they took the exchange student instead of me.

Do you understand what that means? Sue Lynn, if you're out there, Sue Lynn, I remember you like yesterday. Sue Lynn hadn't been in the country three weeks, I swear to God. And they took her on a mostly black squad, I swear to God. And they took her on a mostly black squad, I might point out.

She was a diversity hire. Of me. Most embarrassing thing of my life. So like I wasn't picked on, but I definitely wasn't in that, you know, crew. And so I was smart. And I, again, more comfortable probably with adults and with kids, but in school, the teachers aren't normal adults. Right.

They were also weirdly part of our like. So, for instance, I remember one, the cool teacher, the coolest teacher in school ran the fashion program in my high school. Which, as I remember, it was basically them having an annual fashion show every year. And it was where all the cute girls, you know, did. And so she was the coolest teacher. And I wanted her attention, you know, approval or whatever so much. And I remember overhearing her talk to those cool girls one day in school. And they were like giggling about something.

And I realized that she never talked to me. Like she was one of them. For me, she was my teacher with them. She was one of the girls. Yeah. Yeah. And I realized, oh, even the teachers are, you know, in on the on the whole hierarchy. Yeah, exactly.

That's what I was going to say. They're invested in a higher structure that exists nowhere outside the room. You know, I mean, I mean, you can say in various sort of workplaces, there's hierarchical structures, but high school is a very particular one. Nothing like it. There's nothing like it. A lot of people that work in high school. I mean, my brother and his wife are both teachers and my brother's a high school teacher.

And yeah, he says there's a lot of teachers that just are, they're still in high school. They just are like, they got a good job at high school. That's exactly right. They were so good at high school. They got a job that made it so they never have to leave. I say, as a professor, I was clearly better at college. Right. But, and I know, and I absolutely know that that's what it is. I basically got to a place and finally found a room where I made sense. And I was like, well, I'm never leaving here. Y'all got to hire me because this is it. And I think that's kind of what happened for high school teachers, the ones who are like really good, you know, the popular high school teachers.

That's what that was. And I remember thinking, I don't talk like that and I'm never going to have that thing, you know, that they have that rapport. And so I had my own friend groups. We weren't at the center of the hierarchy of high school, wasn't really picked on, but didn't quite exist in the, you know, they're on a ton of pages with me in the yearbook, you know, if you flip back. with me in the yearbook, you know, if you flip back. But I, but enjoyed it, but could not, but the adults were to me as much a part of the problem as the kids and was like fine leaving it. Like they're actually, next week,

I read in the newspaper recently, my high school is a historic high school. It's, it was one of the high schools that was part of the desegregation of American school systems. And so it's always been very, you know, it's one of these that's in the paper a lot. And they are tearing it down next week, the building that I

went to school in. And I thought about going, you know, seeing the school go down. And then I thought, what the hell? Nobody remembers me. This romantic vision of like driving back to high school and getting one of the bricks as it tumbled to the you know I don't know man and then I was like trusty gut check Tom that was not your room that was not

your space like you know if they ever knock down like the grad library at my then maybe I'll go shed some tears but it was not the best time wasn't the worst time at my then maybe I'll go shed some tears but right it was not the best time when the worst time of my life by far but it certainly wasn't the best I wouldn't do it again for a million bazillion dollars it was hard being a smart girl um not so much because of the boys boys were easy to you know I had big boobs they were fine I could control them but it was tough being a smart girl who wanted to talk about things that not even my teachers could kind of engage in. Like, I remember writing a letter to the editor as a ninth grader. Can you just imagine a letter to the editor of the local paper? Like, what kind of freaking nerd?

And it got published. the editor of the local paper, like what kind of fricking nerd? And it got published. And I remember the principal getting on the intercom going, oh my God, one of our students, you know, has a, this is for the internet. Being in the paper was, you know, almost like being on TV. Yeah. And I remember my teachers looking at me like, you know,

your teacher didn't even write a letter to the editor. What are you saying? And I just didn't, yeah, just, it didn't quite fit. Yeah. Was was was there a difference between did you notice it was there a difference between being a smart black girl and a smart white girl yeah yeah I think so I think some of that was just about like I couldn't make up for being smart so like if you were cute enough as one of the cute smart white girls of which we have plenty by the way yeah um and in fact that was like the top of the cute, smart white girls of which we have plenty, by the way. Yeah.

And in fact, that was like the top of the hierarchy to be both cute, to be both a cheerleader and, you know, AP or whatever. That was the sweet spot. But I could never be cute enough to offset being smart. Oh, that was the thing. It just Avenue wasn't open to me. I couldn't be a cheerleader. Couldn't be on the dance squad. Obviously I couldn't, you know, I couldn't, um, uh, homecoming

and, you know, courts and all that kind of stuff just wasn't available to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you were itching to get out of there. Yeah. I was. When I say I was ready to go to college, I remember going to Walmart myself to buy a trunk to put my shit in. I was like, I'm ready. I'm go. I'm gone. Yeah, yeah. I wanted my own apartment by the time I was like 12. I was just like, I'm done.

I'm going to need something big because I'm taking everything. Yes, that's exactly right. I remember. I'm not coming back. I got two of those trunks. I still remember they were $19.99 each and I got two. And I was like, yep, let's go. Well, what were you what was in your mind? What were you going to do? Oh, I thought I have a memory book from high school. One of the few things I do have. Oh, I thought I have a memory book from high school. It's one of the few things I do have.

And it says in there, God, I look at it now and I go, I had better insight into myself at 17 than I did at 30. Because at 17, I pretty much had it down. It was like, I said, well, I don't know about this whole marriage thing. But if somebody comes along who's cute and doesn't get in any way, I might marry him. And then I had a very specific salary. I promise to be cute and get out of the way. It was so, it was so weirdly specific. Like, and then it's like, oh, I named the three cities I would live in. Atlanta, DC.

I definitely wouldn't do these other ways. Like, I just was so clear. And then for job, this is going to crack you up, given the last couple of weeks. But I said, well, I think I will be the first black woman on the Supreme Court. Wow. Well, you blew it. No, I had my shot. I had my shot.

OK. Wow. Yeah. So, so you were interested in law then, or were you just, or was that, okay. You were interested. To be fair, you know, we're from the South. We only know like four jobs. Yeah.

You know, it was teacher, doctor or lawyer. Right. And if you were a good talker, you know. Yeah. That's what it was. You were a lawyer. Yeah. That was it. And so, yes, I was. You were a lawyer. That was it.

And so, yes, I was going to be a lawyer. Oh, wow. And you went to school. I don't remember where the undergrad was. Yeah. I went to North Carolina Central University. That's a historically black college not too far from me here now in North Carolina. Oh, OK.

It's the other school in Durham is what I like to say. People know that other one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're the other school in Durham. Did you have to say. People know that other one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Where's the other school in Durham? Did you have a scholarship? I did. Yeah.

Yeah. Had a full, which is how we decided, by the way. Yeah. Full scholarship. So that's where you were going. There was no, none of this, like where people now have rankings and charts. No. Hell heck no.

In fact, I remember getting into a school that I wanted to go to more and I'd only gotten a partial scholarship. And I remember my mom sitting me down and said, OK, listen, little girl, which she only says that when she's serious, you know. All right, little girl. If you go to that other school and we've got to figure out every month how to, you know, you know, dot those I's and cross the T's. That's literally all you'll have. Yeah. You know, there's no extra money for nothing. There's no car. There's no insurance.

You know, all because all that had a car by then. And she was just like, that's it. And I remember, you know, real nuts and bolts decisions about your whole future going. Well, no, I like my car. So I guess I'll go to the other school. Yeah. Where I got where I go to this other school where, yeah, where I got, where I got in a free ride.

Yeah. Yeah. I, when my son started his, he's 21. And when he started his college search and I think it was either him or, or maybe one of his friends asked me, how many schools did you apply to?

And I said, one. Yes. The one I went to. Yes. I went to University of Illinois. That's right. Because I was in the same boat as you, small. I mean, I was ready to get out.

And I just wanted to go to the biggest place that I could afford. That's right. And U of I is an excellent school. It is. I started out in, you know, heading towards the College of Communications, which was a June started in my junior year. But they were going to make me a reporter. And I realized I don't care about real stories. I only want fake stories. Made up stories. Made up stories. So that's I transferred to film school. But yeah. And I actually I did get I should say I did. I did apply to because I transferred to film school. But yeah, and I actually, I did get, I should say I did apply to, because I applied to Northwestern and I got accepted and I would have loved to gone there, but I'd still be paying it off.

That's it. That's right. You know, as it was, as it was, I had, I mean, I had some scholarships, not big ones, but it was loans. It was loans. I mean, you know, my son had a college fund. I say had. And I, you know, and I said, you got to your junior year debt free. That's really something.

That's a big deal these days. Are you kidding me? So, you know, you're way ahead of most kids. That's right. And I took, you know, Pell Grant loans from the get-go. That's right. Yeah, Pell Grant was how we did summers. So, guess, you know, and that was how we did summers. So, you know, again, didn't want to come home. So I would say in the summer Pell Grant I did for summer when the scholarship money was only for the year.

And and he's so funny. I did the exact same thing. I only applied to one school. Same thing school I was going to. And at the last possible minute, I remember my guidance counselor calling my mom and going you realize trustee only applied you know to one school again mom totally clued in here she's like really she only applied one and he's like yeah you know we and again this is the very start of the race so they didn't have a fancy thing he's like but you know she should apply to one just in case you know something happens yeah And I threw in a half butt application to a second school just because. So it was only two and two colleges. Yeah. And you went with the one that gave you some money.

That was right. And it didn't cost as much as it does now. No, it doesn't. I was in state in two. And, you know, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, like a full ride. Now that would be like a hundred worth a hundred grand. My full ride might have been worth twenty thousand. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, like a full ride now that would be like a hundred worth a hundred grand. My full ride might have been worth twenty thousand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember tuition. I think it was tuition and fees and everything all in at U of I. My freshman year was in the neighborhood of eight thousand dollars. That's about that's what I was thinking, too. I think that's about what I was. Yeah.

Yeah. And that was that was like I say, that's about, that's what I was thinking too. I think that's about what ours was. Yeah. Yep. And that, and that was, that was, like I say, that's the entire, that's the whole ticket break. That's food in the dorm and everything. Food, I was about to say, that's food, which was the big deal. It was food. I had a book voucher at the bookstore. I was like, I mean, basically, you know, you, I was queen of the universe. It was a dorm room, food, everything you could eat or steal in your bag to take back with you and a bookstore voucher. Yeah, that's it. When did you when did you figure out? Well, when did you go? I'm going to be a sociologist last week. Well, I mean, you had to obviously give up on the law. Yeah. And about when did that happen? And was it was it truly just you got to academia and you felt like I fit in here and this is, you know.

Yeah. So I had a really circuitous route because I went to undergrad and just kind of, again, it was, you know, to risk sounding, you know, arrogant, frankly, you know, college is pretty easy to me academically. The academics came really easy, which means I didn't have to focus a lot. And so I didn't I just kind of floated, had no direction of real purpose. Like, you know, I signed up for whatever they told me to sign up for. But like, I don't remember having like a big plan. What really happened was I got a job like my junior year in college,

ended up sitting out of school for a couple of years and almost got completely lost there because, you know, boyfriends happen. And that's really what happens to actually 90% of all women, a boyfriend. And he had an apartment and it was off campus. So like I was actually going down, know the path the no return as far as my people were concerned there was a boyfriend i was off campus i wasn't going to class and yet was still somehow kind of

in the mix because again whenever i wanted to show up at school things were you know i could pick it back up and just just wasn't a problem. And then. And get by grades wise. That's right. Yeah. That's right. I just, I really never had to.

Yeah. And which in retrospect now would never tell a young student like me and be like, oh my God, you're, you know, you got to go somewhere where you're going to be. Like I was just that classic case. I just, I needed to be in a more challenging environment. And I might get it. If only he'd apply himself. Yeah, that was me. You know, and my feeling was, well, give me a reason.

That was me. I was like, say something interesting and I'm there with you. Right. And so I remember being in poli sci. I'm like, yeah, I had a double major. I had a double major. My other one was in communication. So poli sci, English slash communications, which were in the same department where I went to school because it was a smaller school. And when I was coming back to school, you know, I'd gotten rid of the boyfriend and then

the fiance and husband, you know, I was just done and I needed to figure it out. And when I went back, I ended up that first semester back walking into the career development, whatever office, because I needed to figure out what I was going to do. You know, I just wanted to get it done as quickly as possible. Right. And so I was just looking for like a program or something that would help me figure out what to do with my life. And there was this program. It was a summer research program at Duke. And and the reason I applied for it, Andy, I'd love to say I applied for that program because it said something about preparing students, you know, minority students for the professoriate. And that's what it was. It was supposed to prepare you for academia, help you get a really good research paper for graduate school and navigate grad school apps. I didn't care about any of that. What I saw was for the summer, you came with housing and a stipend of like a thousand dollars.

And I was like, well, I'm applying for that. And I applied and got in. I mean, really, by the, you know, hair of my chinny chin chin, it was, you know, my saving grace had always been I could write. And I wrote a really compelling essay. I remember them saying that. I'm not saying that about myself. When they called me, they said, listen, you know, your academic track record is sketchy at best. You clearly are smart, but, you know, you haven't applied much. And but your writing sample, they said, was just so, you know, compelling. And so I got into what I now know at the didn't know it at the time was like it's a really competitive program. And the first couple of weeks, it was basically them putting all of these, you know, college seniors and stuff in this room and recreating a graduate school seminar. And every other kid there knew what that meant. They were on the track, right? They knew they were trying to get into a top PhD program and get a job at Mellon and,

you know, get to there. I had no idea what they had been applying themselves. Right. They had been. And I remember turning to somebody about two weeks into this thing going. So when we say research, what do we mean exactly? Like I had no clue. Yeah. But then I read my first research paper and I said, oh, is that it? Cause I understood that.

Yeah, yeah. And then I read another one and another one. At the end of this program, you had to do your own research paper. And I did mine and presented on it at the conference. And I understood, I I got it I knew what I knew what was happening somehow it all clicked and I thought it was the first time first of all I'd had to try writing that research paper was the first time I had to actually go to that library

spend hours figuring something out for myself explain it it to someone else. I had to apply myself. And as it turned out, when I did that, I was capable and I liked feeling capable and I wanted to keep feeling that feeling. And so I just kind of kept going. Yeah. And that's how I ended up a sociologist. What was the paper about? Well, first of all, what was the piece of writing that got you in and what was the end paper? Oh, it's a great one. So the first one was a what you're going to. Yeah. What what you're going what's going to be your research focus, you know, for the summer.

And I'm to this day have no idea where this idea came from. Just for the record, as far as I know, I pulled it out of my butt. And I said something about, I think we remember Ronald Reagan wrong. And I want to write about that. Right? Wow. I had no idea what I was talking about.

I'm like 24 or something. I had no idea what I was talking about. Yeah, yeah. But then I had to execute it. I got in and then I had to execute it. And all my advisors just kept saying, that was such a novel idea. You really, I was like, really? Okay. And I remember going and reading everything that had been written about memory and Ronald Reagan and memorial projects. And I remember so clearly what that first paper was, because it's the first thing I ever wrote where I felt I'd gotten it, you know.

Yeah. And my presentation and research paper was the public memorial of Ronald Reagan in the politics of erasure. Yeah. And it's like, why do we remember Ronald Reagan as a great politician? Because they told us to. They kept putting his name on stuff. Because people made a lot of money often. Well, the memorial project was a deliberate, intentional project.

Yeah. His many of his staffers formed this sort of unofficial official group that meets that at the time would get together and meet up in a ski resort. You know, as one does, I guess, when you're plotting to control the world. When you're in an episode of Succession. That's exactly how the world works, apparently. And they said, listen, Ronald Reagan needs to outlive Ronald Reagan. How are we going to do that? And what they would do for like 15, 20 years, if you're driving around small town America,

for example, and you see, you know, the Ronald Reagan Highway, Ronald Reagan School, Ronald Reagan Airport, which was, of course, the big one. They would send out these how-to kits to local, like the Lions Club or the PTA groups or whatever, how to get something in your community named for Ronald Reagan. And it would have application, you know, talk you through how you go do it. And they were like, put them on anything. Put them on the rec center. Put them on.

So you like see this like weird mishmash of stuff all around the country named for Ronald Reagan because they designed for that to happen. Because they know after his politics have ended, all kids are going to know is he must have been a great man because I fly into the Reagan airport. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the Reagan Airport. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, and now it seems like he was the beginning of all of this. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Ronnie. He actually is. I say it to my students all the time. Anytime they ask me, why does this worry? Why is this like this?

You know what? And I go, funny story about that. It all starts with Reagan. It all starts with yeah yeah yeah well you you you know you went now i mean now you have you have a real presence in the world i mean aside aside from your new job as as a as an opinion columnist, I imagine there's a lot of envy out there from other sociologists. Like, how the hell does everybody know who Tressie is? Good eye, Andy, very good eye. And I wonder, I mean, is it social media?

Is that kind of how you think you popped out in the public consciousness more than most academics? Yeah. And, you know, I'm actually pretty sympathetic to my colleagues. I get it. I should not be like they didn't elect me as their leader. Let's just say right. Wait a minute. Hold up. You know, there are people who did do the right thing. They had been paying attention in school. Andy, they you know, they knew they were going to be this thing since the time they were like 15. And then here I came out of the blue. I'm so sympathetic, just so everybody knows. I don't say this often

in public, but I totally get it. And they are right to feel that way. But I think there are a couple of things. One, I firmly believe, I think that all minority people are natural sociologists. There's something that we get about the world not working the way people say it works. Right. That makes us very attuned to thinking about really sociological things. really sociological things. So I just, you know, so I think off top,

despite the fact that I hadn't been, you know, a sociologist in undergrad and didn't come through it, to it in that way, you know, you know, as a Black woman in America, like I get it. Like there's just a baseline that I get. And then I think I was less,

because I hadn't been, you know, it's like those kids who've been running for president since they were 12. And when you look back, you're like, God, you know, it's like those kids who have been running for president since they were 12. And when you look back, you're like, God, you were a weird kid. And it's because they already thought they wanted to be president. And so they're doing weird stuff like, you know, I'm a chair of the United Nations and I'm going to never say anything that could get me in trouble in my campaign 20 years from now. I didn't have that idea of myself young. So I really threw myself into the profession kind of, you know, enthusiastically and took tons of risks that I think other people wouldn't have taken because I didn't see it as

being something that I was campaigning for. And that meant I was on social media a lot more than other academics were. And I used it in a way that was probably very different. You that meant I was on social media a lot more than other academics were. And I used it in a way that was probably very different. You know, I'm far more, I'm very clear about the fact that I have opinions and a perspective and I have my own biases and I'm not trying to be the voice of God or reason that what I give you is my perspective on the world. And I've got that and that, you know, that's what I do. And I think it was just a moment in media where that was a thing.

That was a lane that was opening up and I happened to be there. So, you know, a fair bit of luck and a fair bit of accident of birth, like most things. Yeah. Well, you're funny too. And I mean, I'm completely serious about that. You're funny. You're engaging. And you're and if you because I start, I honestly started Twitter because I was on my way.

I had been asked to play in, and this, God, this was, I don't even remember, 2010, 2009, something like that. That's about right. Because it was during, it was either, it was right around Conan doing the Tonight Show and me going back to work with him for that. Yeah. And I was going to I was in a car being driven down to Anaheim to play in the celebrity old timers softball game at the All-Star Weekend. Yeah. Down at whatever wherever the Angels play. play. And the coordinator for the Conan show said, who was kind of setting the whole thing up, because I didn't have a publicist,

and he said, they say if you tweet about this, that they'll give you a new iPhone. And I was like, oh, really? And so, in the car down there, I opened up a Twitter account and was like,

all right, fine. And then I got into it and I realized for somebody like as a joke writer, it's like, it's, it is like making a little dovetailed Rosewood box of a joke. And I also would really enjoy, and I would take my time and pick the words. And if you can get four images into whatever it was at that time, 140 characters, I would be so because I was like, I'm not that's not just one joke. There's four jokes. Four in there. That's going to hit them on these levels. Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, and I think you intuitively understood the craft of that. Well, thank you. You're welcome. I do think for the record, it's one of the things that I know I connected with you early on. Yes, you were funny and all of that stuff that comes with being a celebrity. I got it. But you were a writer and you understood it as writing, which I think for the record, the best humorists are great writers. I was a huge fan very early on.

True story. I taught myself how to curse because I wanted to be cool because again, wasn't. And I realized all the cool kids get cursed real good. And I couldn't because my parents were dorks. Wouldn't let you. And I went and checked out, as one does, the library albums by Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. And I taught myself how to curse. Thank you very much.

And I'm still very good at it and very proud of that skill. Yeah. And learned it the dorkiest way possible. And, but to me studying those things, it's like, Oh, cause I was trying to figure out the rhythm.

Right. Cause it's not just the curse words. You got to do them like poetry you know when richard goes off on one of his things it is freaking poetry yeah and that's to me what twitter is yes it's that sweet spot between what i think good comedy writers understand which is you got to tell a story fast yeah and a story that people didn't know they want it till they get it, you know? And I think that's the people who excel at Twitter. And to be fair, we shouldn't ask that of like normal people.

Nobody should be expected to do this. Well, one thing, and one thing that I was always excited about with Twitter, and it has, it's been a great place for women because it's a place for them. They don't, there are so many funny women who are being funny today for money professionally and they started on Twitter because there wasn't a booker that had to put them on stage. There wasn't somebody that had to hire them to get on the step. All they had to do was get out there and be funny. Funny, that's right.

And to me, like, and I've said this before, you know, to people, like I like funny women and I prefer reading funny women to funny men. Not because I'm an ally, not because, you know, I was raised in a matriarchal little pod. It's because it's different.

It's because men are so fucking boring now. And they're very narrow. They talk about women, especially depending on what kind of woman. First of all, I just feel like we come in so many varieties. Exactly. You have just so many varieties of women. I, first of all, I just feel like we come in so many varieties. Exactly. Yeah.

Right? You have just so many varieties of women. Right. I feel like with men, you get two. You know, you got chocolate or vanilla. But over here, we're doing these things with sorbets. Mousses. Mousses.

We just got a lot happening over here. Like, I can go from Ali Wong to, like, um oh I like to talk about a Twitter mate comedian Blair Erskine maybe yeah um and again she started out making her own little videos in Georgia yes she's working for Jimmy Kimmel that's what I'm like we just got flavors yeah and I can pick and choose like these different flavors for different moods and yeah I also think that the I mean I think the, I mean, I think the women are killing it for lots of reasons and pretty much the same reason over and over again

in different constructs that you point out, which is it got rid of the middleman. And as it turned out, the middleman was the problem. Yeah. The booker, the manager, the whoever that is, they were the problem. And it actually really showed that that whole thing, women aren't funny, was the biggest joke, the biggest cosmic joke of all. Because, and I mean, there's still bro humor guys that think women aren't funny.

And they're just basically saying, I don't like a car to have more than one gear. You know, I'm not so good with levels, you know, or irony. I don't do that so well, you know. So, it's good. One thing I definitely want to ask you, and we got to wrap this up. It's getting too late. But as a cultural critic, how do you avoid fatigue? And I'm saying this from a personal point of view of being someone who I can barely turn on the news these days just because I just want to crawl into my own butt and hide, you know.

Yes. As opposed to the people we're running from who have crawled up there, but are trying to get out. And they're like, no, you should stay up there. And then we're like, yeah. Listen, first of all, none of us were made for this kind of information environment.

We were never supposed to know everything horrible about human beings that's happening all the time. I'm like you, I'm exhausted. I have about six months ago, I actually had to very deliberately take active steps to curtail the stuff that was coming in at me. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, it was like, I mean, you know, it's nothing special here, but, you know,

it was impacting my sleep, my well-being, my mental health. And not in that like, oh, no, I mean, I was like, I was in danger of not getting out of the bed. Yeah. Cause you know, the weight of it, it was just very heavy. And things will always be heavy. That's the thing I have to remember and remind myself just because I, I'm now aware of it doesn't mean it hasn't always been heavy.

You know, some of this is just about getting to the point in like my craft, frankly, where I trust myself. I trust myself to be good enough at my job that I don't need to know every detail, which is, you know, so much about being, especially when people underestimate you for so much of your life. The way I counter that is by being prepared. Always, always prepare, right? That means I'm going to read everything. I'm going to watch everything. I'm going to take everything in so that I'm not caught unaware.

But I had to trust my craft enough to know that I can still do my job without, I don't have to watch every video of every murder. You know, I don't have to watch every missile being thrown in the Ukraine. I don't have to watch every single one of these horrible trials, you know. Or every racist, horrible thing that somebody in Congress says. That's right. You know, every soundbite, yeah. It doesn't make me ill informed. There is a point at which

you are just an informed person. Yes, I get it. I don't need more. Yeah, I don't have to keep punching the clock, you know what I mean? And so it, I mean, I'm still not great at it,

but I just actually had to remind myself of it today. There was a, I felt the need, you know, to weigh in on something and thought, well, one, you know, can other people do that? I don't have to do that job all the time. And two, will I be just as capable of weighing in on that in, you know, two months?

Absolutely. Like I, you know, my ability, I'm not gonna be any less informed in like two months. You know, if I just don't do this, you know, immersion, this, you know, horror immersion right now. Yeah. Yeah. But I just have to remind myself of that every day.

And it gets a little easier the more like I just trust. I find it's mostly just about trusting that I have done enough work on my craft that when I need it, it'll be there. And I don't have to prove it every time by being the most prepared, informed, miserable person in the room. And I think, you know, because I mean. Being active, you know, I do feel like on one hand, I'm like I'm a talk show sidekick. stuff that especially like in the last election with different groups kind of heralding forces and and getting people together that had tangible results in terms of money raised and poll workers signed up and and canvassers and and then you know we get that nice old man in the white house and

it just seems like it the shit show continues yeah and in fact deepens in some ways so i just i feel like i'm okay i can take i can take a break i can say something i'm not the only one doing this there's lots of that's so important yeah you're not the only one doing it and frankly i you know, I wish that the threshold for this was higher. But the reality is, if in your daily life, I like to say, if it's somebody who actually talks to you, like a person who sees you walking the dog or going to the grocery store or whatever, like real people who see you in your everyday community, if they wouldn't be surprised to hear that you signed up people to canvas, for example,

then you've probably done more than 90% of people for all of political and public life. And you're probably okay. If you take off this, this week, like, cause it's just where it is. You know what I mean? So I think in your, if the people who know, you know, you as that person, you're probably good. Yeah. Yeah. So where, where, where are you going? What, what do you, where do you want to be, you know, as time goes on? Is it, is it kind of, you know, just, is there just a following the same sort of path or is there, are there tangible kind of concrete goals that you have ahead? So funny, cause I write these things down every so often, usually around my birthday,

you know, take an assessment. Like if I die tomorrow, will I be OK? Kind of thing, because I'm a very upbeat kind of girl. And I looked at my most recent one and I was like, oh, crap, I checked all of them off. And I like panicked because I don't know what to do next. I was like, yes, that was supposed to carry me for like at least seven years. And I had written that thing. I was supposed to be busy for seven years. You know, I, you know, I got a dog. I figured that'll, that'll eat up some of the time.

A darling Kirby, right? Have you seen him? That's right. A darling little dog. Yeah. The cutest thing in the world, if I do say so myself. And I'm not even a dog person. I just think this one is exceptional. Okay. And, you know, now, I mean, I've got the privilege of my life being more about what I want to do for other people than what I want to achieve for myself. And that's just such a privilege that most people that love me and

raised me never could have imagined. And so I want to be like really good at that. Like, how do I now start to do that? The stuff that matters. Um, and you know, I have to be honest that I, you know, that I really like what I do. That feels weird. You know, you work enough call centers, you work at Wendy's long enough, you're supposed to hate your job. And as it turns out, I kind of like mine. And so I do, I want to do this, always want to do it better. You know, still always the good nerd girl. I want to get as good at this as I possibly can. Creatively, now, that sparks me. There's a ton I'd love to do creatively.

Fictional stuff? Yes. We've been talking with people about doing script writing and limited series, especially around, I think it's important for the things that we care about in nonfiction to show up in our fiction. Yes. I do too. That's actually where people feel safe enough

and it might be more it might have a more power and more lasting yeah a more lasting quality yeah yeah i increasingly think that and like you know certainly not to step on like people's toes who's actually trained for that but like storytelling is one of those universal things and so i'd love to do storytelling in these other unique ways, again, especially around ideas where I'm like, you know what? I think like, I don't know. Can we make reparations funny? I don't know. Maybe. And maybe it would be a good thing or like, I don't know. Can we, you know, make anything fun? I mean, I truly believe it. You just gotta be, you know,

you got some, it's just high bars that you set for yourself, you know? Yeah. You take something like Abbott Elementary shouldn't work. It's about failing schools and horrible teachers. Yeah. And it works. And now people think, though, about like public education is being full of human beings again. Like that's so big to me.

So like creatively always. so big to me. So like creatively always. And before I leave this earth, I've got to write just one, just one really good country music lyric and have somebody lay it down. Just one. That's one of my secret ambitions.

I have a whole file. I have a file of notes that says country songs. Yeah, yeah. I've got snippets. Me too. Someday, someday, you know. No musical ability. Do you?

You got any musical ability? Do you have any musical ability? No musical ability, but I love music. And also, too, talk about a construction. That's it. Old country songs are get it are like cole porter they are brilliant tight little economical gems when they hit right you know like yes like the song the door by george jones if y'all haven't heard george jones is the door go Go listen to it. It is one of the, it is equal to Robert Frost.

If you ask me, you know, it's wonderful. Yeah. When a song like the door, which I do know is really well, when it makes that turn, like,

you know, I stopped loving her today. What country lyrics do is they make a turn. Yeah. It's all about that turn. And when they make the tight, that, you know,

that hairpin turn, like you said, it's one of the best pieces of prose you're ever going to hear or enjoy. And I think if I can just get one of those, just one in my lifetime, one good turn, I'll be good. Also, the thing I love about them, too, is that country music is irony free. It is like when you say I love my mama you mean you love your mama yeah you know and and it's not you know it's it isn't self there's not a lot of self-knowledge in classic country that's right so in an absolutely irony free environment when you can be surprised when you can when you can have those turns like you say say. Yep. It's so powerful and so, to me, exciting.

You know, there's people that just aren't, they don't have the gene. And I'll say like, oh my God, listen to this Buck Owens song. And they'll be like, oh, that's awful. What? I know, because they hear the voice, which like, I get it.

I guess it's like me listening to metal, right? So I get it. Because no matter what you play for me, all I gonna hear yeah is the screech yes and i guess that's what it is with twang with them like the twang is so distracting that they don't i'm like no listen listen to what they just said did you hear that yeah yeah you're right you don't if you yeah you got it or you ain't got it yeah yep so what if um you know the end question of these three is what you've learned. I mean, do you, is there a, is there a Tressie motto? Is there something that you tell yourself or that you tell other people kind of that's a, you know, the culmination of what you've been through?

You know, the culmination of what you've been through. I mean, you know. They're probably all some iteration of to talk about a good country music lyric there. If I do have something pithy, it is just an iteration of if you're going through hell, keep on going. So the devil doesn't know you're there. going through hell keep on going so the devil doesn't know you're there yeah yeah whatever it is if as my my grandmother used to say if you if you woke up alive whatever it is ain't that bad you really can reinvent yourself as much as you need to for the first time actually probably in modern history of all of human history you really can yeah yeah uh and there's a lot of potential in that which says that you, it's rarely the end.

And, and I've got to believe that or else really none of this, I wouldn't do any of the work I do if I didn't believe that, that you really can rewrite it tomorrow. You know, life's a process of editing. You really can rewrite it all tomorrow if you need to. And I've had to rewrite my story, you know, several times and I think just like any good editing, each revision is usually better than the one before and so

it just keeps showing up to rewrite it but yeah I don't know if I got one pithy saying I should work on that though because I do want to be the old woman at the end of the game who's just handing those out to people and I should probably start working on a human fortune cookie machine oh yeah yeah yeah that's how the young you get the young people to come around right i'm gonna need somebody to like come around so yeah you gotta have some

good sayings right write all this down well trusty thank you so much um and i encourage people to go out and get your books and and uh lore ed and thick and and, you know, pay for that New York Times subscription, just if only for you, you know. Oh, they will love you for that. There's other parts you don't have to read, but trust me, stuff. My page is pretty safe. I will say I try to keep it a pretty safe zone. Thank you so much, Andy. It is so great to finally see your face. And, you know, you owe me one next time we're in the same place. I will. I will. If I'm out there, you're out here. Yeah, we will dine.

All right. Yeah. Hold you to it. All right. And thank all of you out there for listening to another episode of The Three Questions. We will be back at you next week. Bye-bye. Jen Samples, supervising producer Aaron Blair, and executive producers Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Make sure to rate and review The Three Questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts.