The Three Questions with Andy Richter - W. Kamau Bell

Episode Date: July 14, 2020

Stand-up comic W. Kamau Bell talks with Andy Richter about gaining new perspective on his past material, bringing humor to the racial dialogue with United Shades of America, and why he works extra hard imparting humility to his kids.

Hello, you have tuned in to another episode of the three questions with Andy Richter. Although I don't know tuned in, I always want like, do you really tune in? I guess you don't, you just sort of click on. So you've clicked on the three questions with andy richter and my guest today is somebody i've known a while who's a very funny man a very insightful man uh and it's w camille bell which i just found out through your screen name it's walter yes yes it is i mean i told terry gross so i guess you can know, too. All right, good. Oh, yeah, I know everything Terry Gross knows. Yeah, that's what they say on your Wikipedia page.

Growing up, were you Kamau or were you Walter? No, I was Kamau. I was always Kamau. My dad's name is Walter. And so, like, the only time my mom would call me Walter is if she wanted to make me angry because she knew how much she, she knew, I knew how much she didn't like my dad. So if she called me Walter, I was like, whoa. She's projecting, wow.

I have the, I have sort of, my brother has the same thing. His name was Lawrence August Richter. And my dad was Larry. And they didn't want Larry Jr. So they, he's Gus. And then I'm Paul Andrew Richter and i'm andy so my mom for some reason with both me and my older brother we got called by our middle names which i think is like it's it's

for me it was seemed like a very rural thing because i knew a bunch of kids that had a different name at home than they did at school you know whether it was a nickname or a different name at home than they did at school, you know, whether it was a nickname or a middle name. It seems like it's a Southern, like I think of it as a Southern thing, like, because everybody gets named after somebody else. And then your middle name is your name. Yeah, I think it is sort of a, I don't know if it's a small town thing or a Southern thing. But yeah, I associate that too. Like, because by the, at some point, somebody is like the blah, blah, blah, the fifth. Well, you can't, you've gone through all the different things.

You have to be Bubba. I'm things. You have to be Bubba. I'm sorry you have to be Bubba. We've run out of options as to how to call you Cletus. Yeah, no. My mom, or this is the story she told me that, because I'm Paul Andrew, and I'm named after an uncle of hers. She had an uncle, Paul, but she didn't like him much. So she didn't want to be reminded of him by calling me that every day.

I was like, well, you know, you could have named him. You could choose a different name. I mean, I do believe that your middle name should be usable. I think that people have unusable middle names. I think it's not a great thing. So I do think your middle name should be something that, so like, for example, when you go to college and go, I got to start over.

You can go to a new name. Or that sounds good all three together when you are a serial killer. Yes, that's true. That's true. You need a Wayne in there. Yeah, a Wayne or a Lee. Yeah.

So you were born though. You weren't born in the South, right? No, no, no, no. I was born in Palo Alto, California, but I don't, I was the only, my mom was in grad school at Stanford and we were only there for, I don't know, a few months. I don't remember it until we moved back to Indianapolis where she's from. Oh, okay. So were you in Indianapolis for long? Yeah. It's also about four i guess four yeah four so i mean i guess at this age not for long but i remember it so yeah and then we moved to boston and we were there till i was about i mean yeah when you say where am i from like it's just like

it's it's a it's a it's boston but i would go to visit my dad every summer in alabama and mobile alabama so in some sense i've probably spent the most of my, a lot of, the biggest portion of my life that hasn't been spent in the Bay Area has been spent in Alabama, probably. Because then I lived there for two and a half years because my mom moved to Chicago and I hated it. So I moved to be with my dad to Alabama, realized I made a mistake the first time I got there, but it was too late. Stayed for two and a half years and then moved back to Chicago and went to college in Philly, and eventually got out to the West Coast. Why did it take so long for you to figure out, like, why after you knew it was a mistake were you there for two and a half years? Because you're –

Just family dynamic and stuff. Like 13, you can't be like, oops. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just – I'm an only child, and it was just me and my mom. And so it was a very sort of like independent lifestyle. My wife's one of a lot of kids. She's one of four. And so her family travels in a pack, and that's just how it is.

Whereas with me and my mom, we lived in a house, like a two-bedroom house. And he'd be like, see it, wake up in the morning, see it at dinner. And we would just be sort of doing our own things for the whole day. And so when I moved to be with my dad, I had a stepsister. He was married. And suddenly I realized, oh, no, I don't have the freedom I had. But it took me like two and a half years to figure out an exit strategy. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. What kind of kid were you like in the early days? Were you a precocious kid? I mean, it would be my guess. I mean, I don't – you know, I didn't think of myself that way. Because I was with my mom so much, I definitely was a kid that was around adults more than most kids because she would just take me with her places. Yeah. But I wasn't like the kid who was like the cute kid who was showing off my vocabulary.

I would just sort of be in the corner watching it all go down. And so I soaked up a lot. And then later I talked to my mom and she would be like, oh, okay. Like, you know, so I feel really lucky that I was just dragged around to a lot of places. Like I feel like with my kids, it's important to take them to boring things. Like just to sort of like,

just like, it's not for you. Nobody's there gonna be taking care of you, but you need to be around boring adult things because it actually grows you up and makes you smarter. Yeah. I try and do that with my kids but there's no i just there's no giving them the same kind of boring midwestern existence that i had because they're just la kids yeah you can't you know what i mean and i and i and i'm i'm always torn by like, uh, I mean,

yeah, they know how to cook and they kind of know how to clean, but they're just really shitty at it. And I don't have, yes, yes. I don't have my mother's like screaming persistence. Like, like if they do a shitty job,

you know, cleaning the bathroom or something. Yeah. Like I'm not, you know, occasionally I'll be like, come on back in and do it. But most of the time I'm like,

Oh, fuck it. Energy to yell at him about this stuff it's funny to me the number of times i say to my kids just be cool just be cool like and literally i mean like just do the thing i'm asking you to do and yeah i sort of act like the middle manager i don't even care if you do this but it just needs to be like it's it's like it's it's my manager who wants you to do i don't care yes like i've had so many i've had so many things with my son like you know like walking into his room he's 19 now and walking into his room and like there's a the the mail at our old house goes in through his bedroom. Like his bedroom is in the front of the house and it's an old house. It has a mail slot.

And you have to go into his room, but just into the door, make a quick left and get the mail. I go into his room just to get the mail and he's asleep in the bed. And I turn and there's a huge bag of weed right in front of where I get the mail. And I was like, I woke him up and I was was like just act like you're a little bit concerned exactly just act like you think i'm a bit of a badass that you that that things get that i don't want to get caught that my dad might actually yeah yeah i have a gear that you don't want to see me right that i have teeth that i have actual teeth that you're worried about that there's consequences he won't mind oh yeah who cares i'll just leave this big bag of weed yeah get because ultimately i don't care but

no but you want to feel like you want to you want to because i feel like that i think the fear is that if your kid feels like there's no consequence with you then they think there's no consequences in the world yeah yeah and that's the reason why a lot of times i feel like you have to create consequences at home just so the idea that like they understand there are consequences yes yes like i i really want both of my children to get a shitty mundane job so they can get used to the notion that there will be times in your life when somebody that seems like a complete fucking idiot gets to tell you what to do because you're making a paycheck yes you know what i mean yeah and like that's it sucks it sucks and it just is like but

it's like as long as capitalism isn't yes is the system that's gonna happen yeah you gotta get used to it you gotta get used to like, sometimes it's just a job. Yeah. That somebody who you're smarter than is going to be in a position to tell you what to do. Yes. And you're going to have to be bored to make a paycheck. You're going to have to. Not everything is kind of catered to your interest and everything.

I think kids, parents are much more engaged than they used to be and they think about like am i doing a good job as a parent way very much more than they used to i think at least in my estimation but i do think that it ends up with kids feeling like like they need to be entertained or stimulated at all times. And it's kind of like, I don't know. I mean, I wasn't. I had to make shit up on my own, you know? No, I mean, I remember, like I used to say with my grandmother

in Alabama in the summer, and there would be either two, like three things I think I could remember. Like watching TV, which meant watching whatever she wanted to watch, which means I was all caught up on days of our lives, another world, Santa Barbara prices, right. And whatever game show is in that slot after the,

and then in the afternoon I could watch cartoons or just going outside. And that literally just meant just going outside. Yeah. Like there was no, there wasn't a swing set. There was a dog, but the dog didn't care about me. You know, the dog was doing his own thing.

It just meant going outside and just getting into something, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, and so with my kids, we have a little bit of a side yard, but they will go outside and be like, what do I do? And I was like, I, I don't know what to tell you. Figure it out. Yeah. Just, just, just be outside. That's all I need you to do. I just need what to tell you. Figure it out. Yeah. Just be outside.

That's all I need you to do. I just need you to be outside. Do something on your own. Yeah, yeah. I mean, were you kind of a loner as a kid then? I mean, that kind of sounds like. I mean, I wouldn't have thought of myself as a loner. I was a quiet loner.

Everybody said he was a quiet loner. Yeah, yeah. He was a good neighbor. Didn't cause much trouble. I was definitely, because I moved around a lot, I feel like I always kept quiet loner. Everybody said he was a quiet loner. Yeah, yeah. He was a good neighbor. Didn't cause much trouble. I was definitely, because I moved around a lot, I feel like I always kept myself company well. So I wasn't lonely as an only child. I hear about only children who are like, I wish I had a brother. I never had any wish of a sibling.

When I had a step-sibling, I was like, ugh, now we have to talk about what to watch for TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I always had a small group of friends. I was never like, I have 15 friends. I had like, like, like one or two best friends and that was it. So, you know, and then every time if I didn't find one or two best friends, I'd be like, well, I guess I'm just doing, I mean, changing schools a lot was hard because there was always a thing about where do I fit in here?

So that was the hardest thing about moving a lot was like sort of showing up at a new school and being like, who do they think I am? Yeah. Which, which, which table am I supposed to sit at at lunch? You know?

And it was also lots of different types of schools, Catholic schools, private schools, public schools, which is a lot of different culture shifts. But, and then sometimes I would be like, I don't think I have no,

which table I sit at. So I'll sit over here by myself And but yeah, there was just yeah overall it was fine But yeah, they were certainly moving around to like with my kids Our oldest kid because of like when she was born I lived in San Francisco got my first TV job We moved to New York then we moved around New York a lot and then we moved back here So she's lived in like ten different places. Yeah with my youngest kid who here so she's lived in like 10 different places but with our youngest kid who's two she's lived in one house i feel like let's try to keep that consistent for you

like you know yeah yeah you know like let's try to keep you in one place with one and then we thought going to one school with one group of friends and then the pandemic hit yay right right right yeah no it's i think that there. The consistency for a kid especially is is optimal, you know, I mean, it's it's tough and and you you are a self-described blurred. Yes. Which for those who don't know. somebody called me that when i had my first tv gig they said come out as a blurred and i was like wait what is that and then i sort of and it was a black nerd i was like yeah sure is that what this is like when i was a kid there was no thing for you were just a weirdo or uncool or the kid who didn't listen to hip-hop there was not really a a uh a thing for it yeah and now it's like oh it's a blurred because i listen to

uh rock and roll and i like uh comic books okay sure great yeah yeah was that tough i mean were their kids you know coming up and you know going to different places and then like it's not like you go to a different school and they find out that you're like an excellent quarterback it's that they find out you know who all the X-Men are. It's a different thing, you know. Or even worse, the thing for me that was hard is I was a comedy nerd before that was a thing. So nobody cares that you know

who the new hot up-and-coming comedians are. Yes, yes. Or that you can quote old SCTV sketches. No, yeah. Have you seen Jan Karam's new spot on the young comedian special? I think so. Like I said, yeah,

exactly. So this young Dennis Miller, I think he's really got a future for me. Nobody, there was no way to talk about that back then. So I think that was, I definitely felt like around, I had to actually keep my mouth shut.

It was like two things I was interested in comedy and martial arts and bruce lee like that so and none of those things had any i think those things have a lot more cachet now but at that point they had zero yeah yeah and it certainly well and they're not like really applicable to your life as a child i guess comedy kind of is but but there was no people again all these things have been categorized now in a way they weren't categorized before yeah yeah so there wasn't like now probably every high school has the the comedians club or whatever or the you know the whatever the there's you know things that you can sort of plug into or you can go home online and find other kids around the country who are interested. But for me, it was just like, I think I'm the only Bruce Lee fan in the world.

That is so weird because he was so famous. Yeah, yeah. Just nobody cares anymore except for me. Yeah. Yeah, that is true because, and it has, you know, like all the recent things about various male standups kind of grooming underage fans for abuse.

Like, that is such a new internet-specific thing because what the hell would 16 – how would 16-year-olds have known who any of these stand-ups, these predatory stand-ups are 20 years ago, you know? I mean, I think certainly there was, like, a culture of those things that you can read about. Like, every now and again you'll – like i think certainly there was like a culture of those things that you can read about like every now and again you'll like i remember there was one of the guys from the rolling stones who like married a 16 year old or something like it was well they're definitely there's like aerosmith did that that you know like aerosmith some parents signed over

like yeah legal rights yeah legal guardianship guardianship yeah to steven tyler for their daughter so you can take her on tour yeah that i mean that's like so that existed but it certainly was not as easy to get stuck it was like you had to show up at the show yeah you had to go to a lot of shows you had to wait backstage you had to wait by the by the bus in the cold right like really you know it wasn't whereas now it can all happen with a few clicks that's the thing that i think is like you know that is really scary about it it is it is all just a few sort of like you know yeah yeah yeah yeah no that's the kind of you know it's like yeah the internet's great and it's really opened things up but it's also like

oh a whole new terrifying list of dangers that you're yes you know one of the things they teach at my daughter's school that when we first went to my daughter's i guess but when my oldest daughter went there was just the idea of like digital citizenship like it's not about the app you're on it's about how you should be on the internet and i was like this is what we all missed yeah yeah digital citizenship like i think like i think that even when I see comedians get dragged for tweets, forget, like, grooming, awful, you're wrong, you're all done. Yeah. But, like, when I see comedians get dragged from tweets, say, before 2011,

I'm like, none of us knew. Yeah. Like, I remember Twitter was pitched to me as me as like it's like an open mic you can say whatever you want to say yeah and so people were just out there like trying to get attention yep and so i'm not saying i'm not apologizing for anybody's tweets but i do feel like the culture shifted in a dramatic way the minute twitter went from a thing where it was just like just go out there and make a nuisance of yourself to uh wait you can make money from this yeah yeah oh oh i have a brand yeah yeah oh i should delete those things that don't support the brand yeah so i do

have an empathy for comedians who get dragged for tweets from even comedians i don't like or don't agree with the tweet yeah if it's something you said a long time ago that there's not a history of you continuing along that thinking right it's like you were just you were shouting into the wind and then the wind started blowing back in your direction and also i mean and this isn't to make certainly isn't to make excuses for awful things but comedians talk a lot of shit they say a lot of awful shit like to get a rise out of people like the jokes that i make to people in private would curl the hair of yes everyone you know because it's just we're very dark cynical yeah mean people you know and for sure comedy clubs and comedy spaces are not places of great that lead to great maturity no no or yeah or justice

or you know no or inclusivity or and i think a lot of the alt comedy scene was about like we need to make this a more inclusive space but even that was not as inclusive as it thought it was no no and so it's just like we we need different white guys to be in charge over here uh but but again so it's just like we need different white guys to be in charge over here. But but again, so it invites you to be I think this is crime is crime. Awful is awful. But there is a culture of inviting you to not be your most mature self. Yes. And to be rewarded for it.

And also there was there's an education. I was educated by Twitter. I there were I'm you know, whenever Twitter I don't know how long I've been on Twitter. I don't even really want to know, but I mean, but it was over 10 years ago and it, it was, you know, at that point, I'm a 43 year old white man who's been working in television comedy, well-paid, in a privileged position. So there's jokes and things that I made back then that I realized very quickly online, oh, I can't say that. Yes.

And my initial reaction at times was, hey, I'm a comedian. I can say whatever I want. Yep. And then you get past that initial defensiveness and you're like oh no this just hurts somebody or this is like a perpetuation of something that's pretty fucking evil i mean and not that i was like throwing around the n-word or anything i just you know like would make a couple of yeah you know dark jokes and people there are hey that's not funny like there are jokes that exist in the world that i recorded on albums and put out on TV that I'm like, whoo.

In my book, I actually wrote it. One of the chapters was an apology for a joke I wrote that I did on Comedy Central. Because I was just like, because the joke would come back to haunt me even before. Like, I feel like I got pre-canceled. Like, I was like, before canceling was canceling. People were like, that joke is awful. Like I was like, before canceling was canceling. People were like, that joke is awful. And I was like,

what do you mean? And so, and then finally a friend of mine said, I mean, I was like, no, this joke is awful. And I'm like,

and I, yeah, you're right. And so like a part of my book was about apologizing for that one joke. Cause I look back on it and just, even now I got goosebumps. This is awful. It was just,

and I thought it was smart and edgy and political. And it was just awful. What was the topic of it? I mean, I was going to say, I'm going to tell the joke. Yeah, let me do it. Let me do it for you. I got to do it right. You don't have to do the joke, but I mean, I know I'm just kidding. It's funny. I want to do it. Yeah. Was it sexist? Was it race? It was it was sex. It was sexist and also racist in a way that people don't think about. It was sexist and also racist in a way that people don't think about. It was about Condoleezza Rice.

And just the way I talked about her was certainly a sexist, misogynistic perspective and racist in a way that like of all the people you got to criticize black man, you criticize this black woman. Yeah. And I think there's like a part of the joke that is political that you can like excise and go, that's the part. That's the joke. Right. But that's where you should go with it if you want to criticize this person yeah but it but because it's stand-up comedy there's an invitation to like when you're like the club a comedy club at night you're at night people are drinking and you're sort of and those are you know those are not the uh the most woke people in the comedy yes yeah and so you're

sort of entertaining the people who are there and there's an invitation to sort of like make them go, Whoa. Like the, one of the great things that can, especially when you're a young comedian is to make an audience go, Whoa, yikes.

Yeah. That's even because the laugh becomes the boring after a while. Yeah. Yeah. So for some of us, it's like, how can I, how can I push their buttons?

And then you just start pushing random buttons. You're just like, oh, did that work? Then I'll keep pushing that button. And you never go. And a lot of times, you don't go, is this the right button? Should I be doing this? It's just like, it's working. It's working.

And also, too, when you do bits that are sort of ironically awful, like I did. I just had this thing that I used to do sometimes when I'd be invited to do stuff. And it was like, I was just assuming, like I was reading something as if I was an awful person, you know, like I was playing a version of myself,

but like, you know, like just a showbiz time. Like the nutty professor version of yourself. Yes, exactly. And, and I remember I did like some,

like I was doing a bit in Vancouver and I, like, I mean, in this bit, I was like saying I did the most depraved, vicious like things to be, like in a very offhand kind of way. And that's not the point of the bit. But at one point, like to set up near the end of the bit, the thing is like, I was at a republican fundraiser is the is the setup to it you know like because i needed to get like i needed to i needed to get uh you know john mccain

and sarah palin there you know like for the for the joke yeah i said i met a republican fundraiser and the audience booed and i was just like with all the shit that i just said about like stuff i did to people yep ways i violated family members you're gonna go like boo you went to a pub i'm like all right i mean now you're making it political yeah it's like okay i guess i know where your line is audience you know and i think the for me the thing became clear that like it's okay to push buttons and cross lines but for me it's about making sure that the buttons like picking like picking your targets yeah like so there's a i i still like that laugh it's like whoa yikes but making sure that i can go that's right that's what i said. Like, I support this joke.

Yes, yes. I think some comedians, and that's why I'm not advocating for comedians being not doing that. Like, you know, I always look at things like Jim Norton or Anthony Jeselnik. Those guys have very good careers that are doing well because they just sort of go, this is what I do. Yeah. If you're going to walk through the door, this is what you're going to get. Yeah, yeah. And Jeselnik, it would take some sort of crime for him to get canceled

because you can't cancel him for what he said. Right. Yeah, because he said the most cancelable things. Yeah, and he's sort of saying that's what this is. And I think – Yeah, yeah. I feel like there's room for people just like you can have a band that you wouldn't vote for for president.

You can have a comedian you wouldn't vote for for president. Now, you shouldn't have a president you wouldn't vote for for president, you can have a comedian you wouldn't vote for for president. Now, you shouldn't have a president you wouldn't vote for for president. Right. Not to get political, but I do think there's room for those kind of comedians who do that. I think one of the problems I see is that it's just that we're all in everybody's business all the time now. Yeah, yeah. And so I remember there was Artie Lang. I remember early days of

twitter somebody said they were at the restaurant that the comedy seller was at and they and to go to the bathroom you have to so you could just be eating at the restaurant the comedy seller not even at the comedy club yeah i think to go to the bathroom you actually can walk past the club yeah and they heard arty lang on stage saying something and got offended by that and it's like look yeah yeah you can't cherry pick one line i just it just feels like that's the people who paid for it are in that room for him to do that thing you know and if they don't like it that's a different you know that's a different thing but to me it felt like you weren't even at the show i happen to hear yeah yeah and i don't think i'm not trying to get rid of as much as i people think

i'm whatever woke or whatever i'm not trying to get rid of all comedians i don't agree with yeah i'm trying to get rid of all all political policies i don't agree with and people who commit crimes those are the two things right right and sometimes comedians blend into those areas as we as we've discussed well i you know two thoughts about that. One is, yeah, they're like. Anthony Jesimic is really funny, but I don't. But I am. One thing that amazes me about him is how do you live in that space? you know, go into a business where you, I don't know, kill cats or something,

you know, like my business is I murder cats. You know, it's just like, okay, that's what you do. But it's like, doesn't that feel weird? Like,

don't you, aren't there days when you wish you didn't have to kill a cat? You know, I mean, I would imagine there have to be because there's days when I, when I go on stage and I kind of want to be a little Anthony Jesselnik, you know what I mean? So like, I would imagine there's to be because there's days when i when i go on stage and i kind of want to be a little anthony jessel nick you know what i mean so like i would imagine there's days where every comic every comic has a day where they gotta sort of put that act on and go here we go again

you know so i would imagine those things have to exist because they i mean you know i would imagine that there's days when jeff dunham goes do i need to pull out the puppets can i just talk like can't we can't this be about feelings for once yeah everybody's act gets tiresome sometimes so i think yeah but yeah i definitely think that we all have to sort of like make that agreement with ourself that this is the thing i want to do yeah but i i would be a little bit i always am like when comic when comics don't evolve over time that's the thing i think i get shocked by because i think it wears differently depending on how old you are and what you're doing like to me bill burr having a kid means things evolve you know what i mean right right right sort of like your levels of things you care about are different

so yeah you know i think so i don't know i think you can all it it all evolves over time if you allow it to but yeah i definitely you know it would be you know maybe it gets maybe it gets more anthony jeselnik as he gets to be like 85 years old right well and the reason the reason that jeselnik gets away with it or you know or is successful with it if you want it's because he's good he's funny and that's what a lot of these you know a lot of the stuff through time when there's been somebody who's been can't like a comedian who's been canceled or you know a lot of this stuff through time when there's been somebody who's been can't like a comedian who's been canceled or can be you know and some of them have kind of been pushed into the wilderness or into like right-wing blogging i mean that seems to be a very natural flow yes but

the main thing that i always feel is it's not it's kind of boring like you hear the same broey sort of perspective about you know men are somehow more rational than women or whatever you know whatever kind of stuff it's just boring it's just like it's not funny you know i mean i feel like that's it's like i feel like same way about music like there's some music that's not for me but doesn't mean it shouldn't be out there in the world and i feel like i just feel like to me the problem becomes like this is the thing i think it's funny like there's often often those comics who were sort of and i wouldn't put jessica in this category but are putting in this sort of like broey category will often criticize comedians maybe like me but comedians who are trying to do it a different way but then don't want to be criticized on their end and i'm just like yeah you do your thing you do

your thing man i'll do my thing we don't actually need to deal with each other yeah yeah like i'm i you know i think there's a point which every comic becomes like a little bit sheriff of comedy and i think it's a natural evolution of being a comedian like when you feel like i got my comedy black belt now i get to tell you what to do. But you should move through that. And then just be like, we're all out here making a living. There's things I thought about people that I wrote about people years ago that I'm not like, I'm not. For me, there's bigger battles to fight. Yeah, yeah. And so when I see people getting dragged for tweets, I'm just like, you know, just to me, it's like, to me, it's only worth it. If you're like, is this really who this person is?

Right. Right. You know, or is it exposing a pattern of real life behavior that is harmful or something like that? Yeah. And I think that if, if that's not the case,

I just feel like I, I, and I, some people think that's their job is to drag people on Twitter. And I think for me, it's like, I, I,

I'm trying to drag the president. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which doesn't yeah which doesn't which doesn't work he can't cancel him but yeah that's that's where i put my dragging in yeah i think yeah dragging people on twitter that's another one where i'm like that's what you want to do

with your time like to be a shit poster boy okay i mean i think for some people like it is kind of their job like it is their brand And I think that maybe it feeds. I mean, and I certainly have gone. I've certainly been, like, commenting on people and like, what? What are you doing? You know what I'm trying to say? But I think when I spend too much time doing that, you feel like, wait, this is not actually my job. This is not actually.

And guess what I'm doing? Avoiding doing the things I need to do. Well, you know, I think i think too it's also comedians they there's it's not especially like stand-up comedians there's not a coincidence that their job is standing in front of a room of people who are sitting in the dark and literally the only lights are facing them and it's expected that the entire room shut up and listen to them yeah it's not surprising that those people will then be opinionated once they become situated. Yes, yes.

And the things we used to write down in our notebook and let sit for a while, then take on stage and say and see how it works, we're now just sitting out on Twitter. Yeah, yeah. And it's not surprising that some of those things are like, nope, that's not, yeah, that's not. Tone of voice is important. Yes, yes. A knowing glance where I know you're being ironic is important. Well, now, what was your high school? Were you in one place for high school, or did you have to move around there?

High school, I was in. I went to high school. I started out high school in Alabama for a year. Then I moved to Chicago and stayed there for the Finnish high school in Chicago. Yeah. Yeah, so I was for three year. Then I moved to Chicago and stayed there for the finished high school in Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. So I was for three years. So when you,

is Alabama and I, were you in town in Alabama or were you out in the, in the country in Alabama? No, I was in mobile. I mean, it's Alabama. So there's not,

no, I know, but I mean, but there is, but no, no, I understand. But,

uh, I was in mobile, Alabama, which is the third largest city in Alabama. I'll have, yeah. Yeah. So it's 300,000 people. Yeah's 300 000 people which is but it's so and it's a big city in alabama but it

feels very different from coming from chicago or boston where i was coming from so it there's definitely there would always be an adjustment to go there and sort of like a okay thing like when i went there with my wife years later i just had fun looking at her looking at mobile. Yeah. Like just sort of sitting in a car. My dad was driving. I was looking at her. She was just like, whoa. Cause she comes from like Monterey, California, which is like Shakespeare would have written about. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Wow. So were you funny in high school? Like, did you, is that where you start kind of, I mean, I, I was, whatever I am, I always was. But I don't think I was the class clown.

Yeah. So I feel very much like I was funny with my friends. But I liked comedy and wanted to do comedy. But I felt like me and all my friends were funny. I was just the one who was really obsessed with it. And it wasn't until I got to college and I decided I went to college for a year and a half, and when I decided to drop out, and I relaxed, I still had a few more weeks to stay.

I don't know what it was, but I didn't leave right away, and I was there for a few more weeks, and once I knew I was dropping out, I stopped going to classes, and I would hang out with my friends and be completely relaxed, and suddenly I realized I had become the funny guy. Everybody was always looking at me.

And people would introduce me like, this is Kamau. He's hilarious. That was part of my intro to new people. And I was like, oh, am I that guy now? Yeah, yeah. And that was a guy. His name was Seth. And I haven't seen him since college.

Said, have you ever thought about becoming a stand-up comic? And I was just like, I don't know, man. Why would I? And inside I'm like, yay! Someone said it. Yeah, that's the point at which I always felt like I was funny, but nobody was telling me I was other than my close friends. But this was just a point where I was able to walk into a room with people

and just be funny. People I didn't know, and people sort of expected it of me, and it didn't scare me. I was just like, yeah, I'm funny. Right. Now, while all this is going on with your friends what are you telling your parents what are your plans when you're dropping it like because you don't drop out of college and go well i'm just gonna check it out maybe stand up you know yeah so i like it to sort of go back to where we started with the walter thing so i was i went back to chicago my mom has always been sort of like you'll

figure it out you know and if you don't want to be there don't stay like she she was very sort of practical about it and like you're not it you're not dropping out of college because you can't do it you're dropping out of college because you don't want to do it yeah she understood that like it was like a and i talked i talked her through it so she was fine with it my dad like this got black man Mobile, Alabama, took him like he didn't get through college until he was like in his 40s. Like it just took him. He like he dropped out and went back and dropped back. And then he got like became like a titan of industry. And I was going to the University of Pennsylvania, which is an Ivy League school.

And he was just sort of like his whole vibe was like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Right. Right. If you just get through this school, your whole life is assured. Yeah, you're being given the keys to the kingdom and you're eschewing them. Yeah, yeah. If you just get through an Ivy League school, it doesn't matter what your degree is in. He was just like, just get a degree from an Ivy League school and you'll be fine.

But you were just done? I was just done. Like I picked the wrong school ultimately is what it comes down to. Like if, because Penn is an Ivy League school, which means it's not really like a liberal arts school. I think if I'd gone to like some sort of like, not generic, but like a state school that just sort of has everything. Yeah.

Or if I, or Oberlin, where it's just like, where everybody's their own unique flower. I think I would have like found a way to stay. But when I realized I don't want to be a business person or a nurse or, and that's basically what Penn is good at. And I don't think there's anything for, I don't have a pre-professional job that I'm looking to get. No, I know. So I was just like, I think I got to go. I remember looking through all the class, like the big class thing.

I don't know if they still – they probably don't make them anymore, but it was like this big book of all the classes in the school. I just remember flipping through it like, what class would I take if I stayed? And there was nothing because they just didn't have a – they didn't have like a big liberal arts bent. Like I should have just sort of like found a – Just transferred just transferred yeah just yeah one of those schools where you don't get grades you get feelings you know i would have been better there yeah sarah lawrence is right up your alley exactly yeah something like that and i didn't and i don't and at that point i was also

just sort of like so i didn't even think to transfer it was just like i gotta get i i have a real one of my vibes that i've taken with me through my life was like i gotta get the fuck out of here it's just a very sort of like me thing to feel like i just gotta get the fuck out of here regroup and then figure it out yeah so it was back to chicago for that back to chicago and then i like moved back to chicago right when like i think the the la riots the rodney king la riots were happening so i remember like being in bed watching the riots on tv like just like kind of like right now is how it feels like the world is falling apart yeah and here i am stuck at home yeah here i am stuck at home and my mom basically said at some point okay you have to get

a job i don't care what it is just get a job and i signed you up for classes at second city in chicago second city because she was like you always want you always love saturday night live you've always wanted to be a comedian is this is the only thing i know to do to support that is sign you up for second city class what a good mom yeah no seriously yeah she absolutely yeah yeah absolutely like and it's sort of like just so getting a job and that sort of got me like out of bed and i knew i was only doing Second City to get the confidence up to do stand up. So, yeah, I went through the whole program. Actually, it's funny. I know he doesn't remember.

Steve Carell was my director of my level five show. Uh huh. You know, so it was like Steve Carell, who at that point was like they thought he was like the next Alec Baldwin. You know, he's a good looking guy at Second City. And and I did the Second City classes and started doing stand up and then slowly worked my way through that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's hard like when you're in college because I definitely, I definitely, well, I mean, I ended up going to film school. So like I figured it out.

I kind of did what you did, but I did it sort of halfway and then figured out like I did that thing where I, I transferred. Yeah. But I definitely remember just feeling like, and especially even after I got out of college and a lot of the work I, cause I worked in film production, a lot of it was commercials and was advertising and working freelance in film production is not, it's nerve wracking.

You know what I mean? I mean, I think the first year i did it i made like 14 grand and you never know where the next job is coming and then when you do get a job you're it's 16 to 18 hours a day so you're you know you have this like life where you like live basically on an offshore oil rig except it's a montgomery wards commercial you know and even the little experience that i would have kind of in the advertising which to me seemed like the most logical place for me to go if i was to go like

legit and you know not not you know just to kind of get a job i just realized i can't i would i'm going to be an obese alcoholic you know know, more so than I am now. If I like, I just cannot handle this office atmosphere. I cannot handle this structure. I can't handle like, you know, I've been a kid that like was always like nervous about getting in trouble. I fucking hate authority. Like, don't tell me what to do. Because I'm not, because especially too, when you're like not a rule breaker you're like why are you on my case i'm not you

leave me alone i'll be fine yeah like i'm not gonna fuck shit up just leave me alone you know i just want to still i just want to still be here tomorrow i don't think i'm trying to avoid i'm not trying to try to avoid trouble. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now, is it hard for you when you start out? I mean, are you nervous? Are you scared? Does your mind kind of root you enough?

No, I mean, so I started it in, like, I went to an open mic in Chicago for about a month, or one open mic. My best friend, the guy I met in high school, Jason, one of my small group of friends like he said there was an open comedy open mic comedy night in his neighborhood at a coffee shop and so I just went for a month we went together and just watched and I've it's the greatest thing happened the first night I went it was so bad I was like well I can be this bad yeah yeah like and then I watched for a month and then eventually started going up and the thing about starting comedy is it's pretty fun because you you sort of fall into a scene of people. Yeah. Like, there's sort of, like, you automatically,

that's the funny guy, that's the guy who writes, but he always bombs, you know, that's the, this is the woman who's funnier than all of us, but she doesn't do, but she doesn't want to go do one-nighters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so you, so you, it was like the first time I had, like, a crew. It was like, you know, sort of like, it's so you so you it was like the first time I had like a crew. It was like, you know, sort of like it was really fun.

I mean, I wasn't that funny, but it was really fun. It took me years. And one of the reasons I moved out of Chicago is because I felt like the scene wasn't really me. There wasn't enough opportunity to get better in Chicago. This the comedy club. So I started basically when the boom had crashed against the shore. And so there just wasn't all the clubs were closing and the all team hadn't

really kicked in yet in Chicago, especially. So there just wasn't a lot of, there wasn't such a thing for a long, long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it just wasn't, it was sort of like you do three shows a week and if two of them were bad, you want to kill yourself. Like it's just like, you know, so, and it just sort of was not, like, the third. So when I'd done comedy three years, I felt like the third year I'd repeated a year. Like, I was like, I didn't get any better this year.

I didn't make money. I didn't, I don't have a new act, you know. And so I started, like, looking for places to move. And I visited a friend of mine in New York. And I was like, this is too much. I love it here, but I can't take it. It is a lot. And then I came to,

yeah. And I came to San Francisco and weirdly like coming to say, I like, you know, nobody knew me. I had no credits, but I went to the showcase night at Cobb's comedy club. Gene Pompa was there. Do you know Gene?

Sure. Yeah. And he was, and I, and I sort of, I was like, that guy's famous. He was on the a list.

And he's really fucking funny. He's super funny. Super cool. Yeah. And so I went up and said to him afterwards, like all like, that guy's famous. He was on the A-list. Yeah. And he's really fucking funny. He's super funny and super cool. Yeah. And so I went up and said to him afterwards, like, oh, like, you're famous because you were on the A-list on Comedy Central. And he laughed and he was like, I was like, I'm a comedian from Chicago. And Gene, I don't know why, gave me the number of the Punchline Comedy Club

to call and say, tell them I said you should get a guest set. So I called. I got a guest set on a show that was like a sold-out Saturday night show. It's the kind of thing that just doesn't happen. Like, you don't get a guest set on a Saturday night show. And I had like half an act, but because it was Saturday night first show, I had a great set, and I walked off stage like, I'm moving here because I will take over the city.

And so I moved to San Francisco. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And then it's not funny for seven years yeah you got that initial you know yeah it's nobody really a really good first date with a terrible relationship you know yes exactly and and yeah so that that was sort of what swung the thing for me to move to san francisco was just like happy and i always look back like like, none of that made sense. Like I ended up and the guy who booked me, Jeff Wills is like the biggest comedy pro in the country now.

And I, and he like booked me to do. And so I've always known Jeff forever, which has always helped me. So it's like this weird, like he was sort of in the early stages of his career. And now he's Jeff. Now he's Dave Chappelle's promoter,

but like I've known him for over 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. Now are, are you making a living just doing stand-up at this point when you move? No, no. Yeah, that's what I wouldn't think. No, no, no. No, because, again, this was the – like we would hear – like when the club would close at night at the Punchline

and the comics would hang out, you'd hear all the comics who had been around in the 80s be like – they used to be 14 full-time clubs in the san francisco bay area and you didn't have to leave town yeah you just try and every you just try every club was a different market basically yeah and so you so comics could just make a living just travel around san francisco not even leaving the 415 or 510 area code and that was gone and so it was just like one-nighters that everybody was clawing at to get to a room that sucked yeah you know and so i wasn't close to making a living i was i always had all sorts of different retail style day jobs yeah just to sort of and i was also really like

even at that point like hadn't figured out what my act was so even if i got even if somebody booked me for something there was no sense if I would do well or not. Yeah, yeah. It was really like, because it was sort of like half-baked race material. But then I was also just trying to make you laugh. So it's the jokes about how men's magazines are different than women's magazines. Have you ever noticed that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There was no like act that hung it all together. It was just like every funny thing that ever crossed through your head. And every now and again, I'd be like, isn't racism funny? You know, like they were like, no, all together. It's just like every funny thing that ever crossed through your head. And every now and again, I'd be like, isn't racism funny? You know, like, they were like, no, all right. Well, come on, if you look at it. Yeah, if you look at it.

It's a certain light, yeah. Yeah. And I didn't, yeah, so it was just like it just didn't hang together. So, like, I was getting work because people liked me. And I think a lot of the times

comics get work, especially at that level, because people go, they don't abuse the waitst they don't they're not drunks they know to tell people where the bathrooms are you know being nice to people is is one and i'm always amazed when i see people in show business who are assholes it's like yeah fucking moron being nice is one of the best ways to ensure future employment nobody wants to work with an asshole yeah it'll get you employment when even it'll get you employment even when they just so because they like you yeah it's easier easier to be around that's yeah right i mean i think about

that era of comedy is sort of connected to what we're talking about earlier like just about like how the culture sort of encourages bad behavior that was when like i don't know if this still exists but you'd go into green rooms at like one nighters or comedy clubs and there'd be a list of like, how the culture sort of encourages bad behavior, that was when, like, I don't know if this still exists, but you'd go into green rooms at, like, one-nighters or comedy clubs, and there'd be a list of rules, and one of them was, like, might literally say, don't hit on the waitstaff. Yeah. Don't have, you know, and it was just a thing that was, like,

that's their way of handling it. Yeah. Like, just, like, please, if you could please not hit on the waitstaff. Right, right. You know, like, as I said, comedy has no HR department. Yeah. Can't you tell my love's a-growing? How worried are you about kind of the deeper artistic issue of like, what am I supposed to be saying?

Like, does that haunt you from the beginning? Is that, or does it not haunt you at all? Or is it something you ever really feel you have a handle on? No, it haunted me from the beginning. I think one of the, it's funny, one of the, maybe it was a mistake. Right when I started doing comedy, Richard Pryor's book, Pryor Convictions, came out, which was his autobiography. Yeah.

And a lot of it is about the sort of the crazy life of Richard Pryor. It should be. And a lot of it is about the the sort of the crazy life of richard pryor as it should be right and a lot of his drug stuff yeah yeah but a lot of it's about how much he loved comedy and how and how he thought about comedy and so it was all about finding your and so it's a lot of it's about how hard he worked to find his voice yeah and so i always had this thing about like i need to find my voice and i think i probably over focused on that in a way that sort of like ruined just figuring out how to write jokes. Yeah. Because even if you – once you find your voice, you should be a good – you better be a good joke writer.

Right. Your voice doesn't mean anything. You got to be funny. That's – you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think I sort of like was pursuing this ethereal voice thing at a time where I didn't know how to write jokes. And I think that's why my act was sort of this sort of like, what is this? It's just sort of like – and then I would panic and just do a joke that that i didn't really like but i was like it's a

joke and so i was always like trying to figure out and then the comics i liked were always strong point of view comedians so like like at the time i started was also when sort of tales of bill hicks started going through comedy like through the comedy communities like he had just died a couple years before and everybody's like trying to be the next bill hicks you know yeah and and at that point people are like passing around his albums on cassette tapes like because they weren't even reissued yet and there was no spotify it was just like a friend of mine gave me a cassette tape of bill hicks i was like oh this is what i want to be yeah and so then getting caught up in like how do i how do i channel my

inner whatever? And so there's a lot of bad Bill Hicks impressions back then. Yeah. Not for me, but for people like a lot of white, a lot of angry white guys talking about how the government and pornography are. Right. Right. Truth tellers. Truth tellers. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a poet. I'm not a comic. Yeah. And so there were so I was like always trying to figure out how to do that. But then I was not because there's no if there had been an alt scene in Chicago, I might have been able to do that. But because there wasn't, I'm doing this on like guest spots on comedy clubs. They're like, just be funny. You know, one of the worst sets I had at that point.

Oh, to this day, actually, like I got booed off stage in 30 seconds at a club in Chicago. Oh, wow. Because I did my new I offstage in 30 seconds at a club in Chicago. Oh, wow. Because I did my new, I wanted to open up my new Rodney King joke. Always a laugh getter. Always a neat slapper. Yeah, like a new one. Not one I'd, like, something, it's something that now I would do, but I would make sure the joke was funny, because I didn't know how to write jokes yet.

So it was just me rambling, not even ranting, just rambling. Also, you would have an audience that knows who you are and that they're willing to... That's the whole difference. Because for a while there, I would have occasion to do stand-up sets because people would ask me to do stuff

or to come to a comedy festival and yeah do our show um and i was so used to little improv rooms you know like improv and an improv audience is already they know you don't know what you're going to say like they know they're going to be watching it get made up so there's an understanding there's a generosity yes an implied generosity already and i'd you know go to these stand-up rooms to do this you know fill in for somebody and i'm like oh these people they don't want to see me try and figure it out they're not interested in my discovery process nope yeah they want their fucking chicken wings and their

margarita and they want punchlines yeah and i and i think that but they still but they also want to feel like it's happening for the first time that's the funny thing is they they don't they want to feel like it's for them and it's sort of spontaneous so you have to be able to sort of have this sort of like yeah i'm just talking yeah but you better have but a punchline better be coming like yeah yeah and you can see them you can feel them sort of like, uh-oh. They don't even know that they feel like, that's not a punchline. But you know that wasn't a punchline.

They didn't read that as a punchline. And then if the next one doesn't come, and then you can feel the point where they're all like, I think this guy's bombing. there a joke or a set or a moment where you kind of feel that kind of became the key from crossing over to kind of not knowing what you're doing to then being like this is me and this is my voice well what happened was like in uh like i so i got i sort of basically i did the montreal comedy festival in 2005 i want to say early i and i sort of went going well i'm going to be discovered and then be taken to la and i'm then i came back and i had like a bad by my all new faces show was awful and i came back and spent the next couple years in san francisco like trying to figure out like i didn't i went into montreal without an agent or manager and came out without an agent or manager

which i feel like it might be one of a few people it's ever happened to, but no representation in, grand opening, grand closing. Yeah. And so I spent a couple years just trying to sort of figure out sort of what do I do? And then I did some shows in Okinawa with my friend Kevin Avery, who is also in a sort of similar path, like a guy who felt like we missed the wave of comedy. And we did some shows in Okinawa on military bases for troops. And basically, I bombed my face off for like a week in Okinawa. Oh, my God. We had to do 45-minute sets.

Yeah. And you have to do 45 minutes because they need the show to be a certain length of time. Right. And it's for the servicemen and women. Yeah. And not the heroes. Nothing against them. But they're not the ones in Iraq who are just happy to see people they're they're bored off their they're bored off their faces yeah

because there's nothing going on in okinawa there's no reason we should be there and so then i'm just like sort of like over the course of the week like riffing and coming up and watching their tv over there and writing jokes down and like you know like just sort of like writing stuff on the like they like this all right i'll talk about this trying to get through it yeah uh you know i can't you know so i get through the week and i come back like is this what i do for a living like is this is this what it is to be a comedian and from that i sort of like stopped doing sets for a few weeks and then like okay well if i want to do this i have to go about it a different way and that's when i started like renting theaters and just sort of like put the cart before the horse i i named it the w come out bell curve

ending racism in about an hour because i was like i want to talk about racism on stage i want people to know that coming in uh i had a friend of mine who was like a local producer he helped me sort of put it on its feet and it just was this and i also brought a projector and started doing like powerpoint slides before it was everybody was doing it and like basically just sort of built the show. I wanted to, I wanted to see in the world and, and sort of like, I'm not going to,

and took it out of comedy clubs with small black box theaters. And the first night I did that show, you know, these are things that don't, don't necessarily mean anything, but it was the first time I ever got to stand. It was like, I got a standing ovation.

It was like, you know, and it was like, it was also like, I did like 90 minutes without even realizing I was doing 90 minutes when I was like struggling to put together 45. Just because I allowed myself to sort of like just do what you want to do. And it's like an improv setting. It's a theater setting. So they're a little more chill.

They're not, they're not judging. And after that, I'm like, oh, I don't know what this is, but this is the thing I want to do. This is, this is what it is. And so that show sort of guided my career from this point forward. Yeah. Yeah. From that point forward. And do you get an agent manager in that sort of space of time?

I mean, it took, like, first I was just doing it in San Francisco and getting, like, I started getting, like, local press. Yeah. And then, like, so it was that thing where suddenly I was like, oh, people here care about, I didn't know the city cared about me or knew that I was here. And I started to be like a comic that they thought, comics from San Francisco, Robin Williams, Kamau Bell, you know, like sort of like, you know, like, and then I started taking it to LA and doing it at the Comedy Central Stage in LA. And like, I mean, it didn't happen overnight, but over the course of like, let's see, I started in 2007.

By 2000, what, like I was doing festivals and things. So 2010 is I think when I got my first, I got a manager in like 2009. 2010, I got an agent. And so it didn't like all happen right away. But the whole time I was doing those three years, I was working more. I felt like I was funnier. I felt like I was doing good work. So I sort of said, well, I know the work is good,

and I'm also getting rewarded, maybe not by money, in ways I hadn't before. So I'm just going to keep going this direction. Yeah, yeah. I remember saying to my now wife, then girlfriend, because I would get all this good press, even though we were broke. I'm like, people who get pressed like this

eventually make money. I just feel like you can't be told you're this good yeah and nobody ever pays for it stick around honey please yeah i just like something's got to come out of this and yeah you know you know but so it definitely was like it wasn't like i did one set it's not it wasn't the the marvelous mrs mazel yeah yeah it wasn't like I did one set and it was, now I'm on tour with Shay, whatever. But it was like a thing where like, it just felt better and I felt like, and the work was better.

And then comics and friends of mine would come see me do that show and be like, yeah, this is the guy I hang out with. This is the guy I know. Oh, that's great. When you're doing comedy, I don't really know. That guy, that's like a version of you, but this is actually the guy I sit and hang out with. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think that is kind of, you know, audiences know when it's real. Even when something's fake, you know, they know that it's coming from a real place. And I always, you know, I've had this like weird experience of sitting literally next to people and watching them try to be funny on a, on that very specific television show and I see so much where it's just like the people that try really hard and they assume this, like, I mean, unless you're Will Farrell and you've come on in a leprechaun suit yes you know and you you know you've already earned that yeah so many people that the audience doesn't know and they assume an attitude and they have like a whole persona and a shtick and i always just feel like uh you're already like you're yeah starting in a hole you've dug a hole for yourself because you have to get the audience

past that i don't buy it like i don't you know they're just like i don't buy that i don't think that's true i don't think you're being true yeah whereas they reward you know an actual expression of a particular humanity i think you know yeah i think it's true i think i because i'm not yeah i never advocate for everybody's got to be on stage telling their deepest truth but you have to be doing something that is an expression of you yeah yeah so like you know i i love andy kaufman like you know yeah yeah he was clearly doing an expression of himself that was not you know yeah well who knows what he was really like but right that so i i'm definitely not i think sometimes people think i think this is where a lot of times like sort of the bro comics get confused i'm not saying everybody's got to do it the way i do it but i'm gonna do it this way you do it your way and we'll all let the chips fall where they may right right and they're

well and also there's an audience for everybody too that's yeah that's the whole thing i mean i you know there's so many people so many so many comedy people that i see on twitter who think their job is to sit and pronounce what's good comedy and what's bad comedy and it's like no they're it's just what an audience wants and there's bad comedy and it's like no there it's just what an audience wants and there's different audiences yes you know comedy that you think is just the dumbest shit in the world there's people that love it what you're gonna get mad at them for laughing at shit they love i mean unless it's you know hateful stuff yeah no there's yeah there's there's definitely a line and we can have different opinions about that but the one of the great

things about coming up in San Francisco is because the scene here, the two clubs both liked me. Like I got to open for people that I wouldn't have gotten to open for another city. So I got to like open for Jim Norton and Brian Regan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And earthquake. Yeah. And none of those audiences are my idea or were actually my audience. Right. Right. Let the, you know, you know, I got to, you know, and I got to open for Chappelle doing five-hour shows after he got back from South Africa. Wow. And I got to sort of be on stage stretching while Paul Mooney was late to the show.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I got to, like, all the different levels of, like, you know. I have a feeling he's late a lot. Yeah. I just get that impression that he has his own clock, you know i got to feeling he's late a lot yeah i just get that impression that he has his own clock you know paul definitely one time they were starting the show and they got a call at the club and he was like i'm on the tarmac in la i'm on my way and this is san francisco yeah it's a

hour flight but the show just started paul yeah yeah i mean you're you're not gonna land at the club yeah the airport it's the san franc airport, but it ain't in San Francisco. So, yeah. Oh, that's amazing. But so I got to, I really feel like I got to, like, you know, I got to see, like, Louis Black do his first comedy set after 9-11 at Cobb's Comedy Club. Like, I got to, like, you know, so, like, the scene out here is so, everybody sort of comes through here at some point,

and they don't really respect genre and boundaries, which is kind of great. So you end up on shows that you wouldn't end up on in different cities. Yeah, yeah. And it's also I think. I mean, I don't know that scene, but I would assume that like just because it's San Francisco and it's, it is such a liberal hell hole that, you know, you're going to eat that you, you are going to be able to have a safer creative atmosphere than you would in St. Louis or in Dallas, you know? Yes. Because there's, you know, people are just used to, People are just used to all kinds of different people from the sublime to the ridiculous. Yeah.

It's definitely a thing that you can find. It has that thing where it's like New York, but it's just the volumes turned down where you can let your freak flag fly, but you're not fighting your way through the city every day. You can sort of stroll your way through the city every day you sort of stroll your way through the city yeah and whatever san francisco has become it still had that feeling of like broke artists can move here and figure it out yeah and even though people at the time were like no that's not the case anymore well you know but and and and it had a it has a sort of very diverse like performing art scene so i could go i'm sort of just through being here i met like other performers and then i found a theater and so i could go i'm gonna go to that theater that i know and just say hey you're you're dark on thursday nights can i have the next four thursday nights for a month like there's that kind of access yeah that i don't think you

can have in new york that's different in new york but like right because i met a guy and he's like he needed in charge and he's like i'll just take it out of the receipts, whatever you make. I'll, you know, I'll take my money off the top. So it was like, it was sort of still low res enough that you could pull off things that like, you can't pull off in a lot of cities and diverse enough. So you can pull off the Thursday night is free in St. Louis maybe, but you're not going to pull off that diversity of audience and thought in St. Louis. Speaking of the diversity of audiences, when you start doing kind of more race material, when you start doing more sort of social criticism,

is your crowd mixed crowd? Is it a white crowd? Is it a black crowd? And what is the difference? For me, one of the greatest things we did with the solo show, and my friend Bruce I think came up with this idea, was about ending racism in about an hour and we needed to figure out how do we sell tickets because nobody knows what this is. And so you're always trying to do ticket giveaways or things like, you can half price this

this night, but we just came up with a gimmick that we stayed with for years. Bring a friend of a different race, you get in two for one. Oh, wow. So, like, immediately it meant that a theater audience which is normally a very white audience becomes more diverse yeah does it like there's no way the diversity of the audiences so it sort of made sure that like i had people in the audience of different backgrounds who could all sit in the room together and then everybody could react differently depending on what they thought yeah and it sort of taught me how to go it doesn't

matter if only half the audience is laughing that's the half that gets it like i sort of very early on was like oh this is cool so if you're in a comedy club and only half the audience laughs you're sort of taught to think that's failure but if you're in a crowd that's really mixed and diverse and half the audience laughs you're like like, oh, you're the cool people. You know what I mean? Like, you're the – and so – Yeah, yeah, yeah. It allowed me to really, like, play with the dynamics and the demographics of an audience. So, yeah, that – so, luckily, from very early on, I had a very mixed audience because I think, to me, that's how I want my act to work.

I want some of everybody there. Yeah. I want some of everybody there. Yeah. Yeah. I also think too, being a, being a, a black man on stage doing a show called end racism in an hour to an all

white crowd. Yeah, no, that's it's there's a tension there for everyone involved, you know? Well, and that's what I didn't want to be. Cause I'd been enough.

I've been around theater crowds enough to know they're generally white audiences. And also for like, I'm going to look like I'm full of shit like you don't you're afraid to say stuff in front of black people like yeah yeah yeah I like it just I just knew that would have felt so again fake it would have felt like ridiculous and I have a secret for whitey yeah yeah only whitey can know only white people can come and I also felt like it would have been like not as much fun if I just got a generic older white theater crowd yeah yeah like so to me i

wanted some of that like some of the sort of the gut punch of the comedy club crowd and also people who aren't normally in theater with the theater crowd who's a little more patient so i wanted the mix and that's what happened but yeah no but then i ended up one of the ways in which i made money initially was like doing the show at colleges. And I ended up at a lot of colleges where it was like, you know, Fort Collins, Colorado. You know what I mean? It's like not the most diverse crowd I was ever in front of. No, no, no.

Yeah. sitting in the doing the conan show for all those years and sitting in front of an audience which is never been less than 90 white i bet you yeah just i mean maybe depending on the musical guest you know like you might you know because like we'd have usually though it was like musical guests that attracted young females it would be all of a sudden the audience why is the audience 60 17 year old girls you know it's like because it's maroon five or something like that but um i do find that white audiences there are certain topics they need permission to laugh at you know and so like i think if you've got a mixed crowd and the white people see oh there are black people laughing too i guess it's okay i can laugh at this uncomfortable thing that makes me scared and worried yes yeah no it definitely definitely and i think for me it's fun to then be

like look around you know like sort of because i think a lot of times audiences think they're watching you and really it's like i sort of learned in the theater crowd and sort of taking the power back go no no i'm what you're watching me but i'm also watching you. And really, it's like I sort of learned in the theater crowd and sort of taking the power back. No, no, no. I'm you're watching me, but I'm also watching you. Yeah, yeah. So you think you're anonymous. You're not anonymous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see you right there. Right. And I can and I would sometimes walk through the crowd like, look, I can even touch you. You know what I mean? Like sort of like just to sort of breaking down that fourth wall was always and still is a big important thing to me because, you know, it's it it gets people sitting in their chairs in a different way if they feel like you can see them now what at what point do you start i mean you become sort of like well was there ever did you were you ever like trying to be just an actor because i mean now you're kind of w kamau bell

the you know i mean i'm a commentarian yes yes yeah yeah the satirist is jay leno would say for comedians who aren't that funny who said that jay leno had that like years ago like you're like the stages of being a comedian and you get the satirist when it means like not that funny you're not that funny anymore so I I sort of knew when I didn't move to LA like I was like because it's someone I was like I'm choosing to stay in San Francisco and do this show that I'd sort of whatever thoughts I had of being on Saturday Night Live were over you know I mean whatever sort of early thoughts of like getting in like that's that's not gonna happen your own sitcom or whatever my own sitcoms like that yeah it's funny now that's more possible than it was before but at that point it was like no you have to go to la and do all the things but yeah

um so yeah i thought i knew that that was and i sort of at that point really was looking at like john stewart is like he's just john stewart right you know i mean yes he's been he'd been in a couple movies and he at that point he was still at the daily show or i'd look at like george carlin like he's just george carlin yeah he's not yes you know everybody gets a part every now and again and so i really sort of thought of myself was like that's the direction i'm going to go it's just like i'll do things if they come up like i always say if michael bay wants me to get stepped on in the next transformers movie i'll happily do that but yeah i'm uh i'm not going to go because all the little bit of auditioning i did just was awful and i wasn't trying to get

better at it I wasn't taking acting classes so I was like there's no I'm not pursuing this so why would I go audition for things you were telling yourself something yeah before you even asked yourself the question yeah I was just like so I just never and then by the time like because I was able to make it out of San Francisco and then get like my first tv show there have been times now where people be like do you want to audition? And I'm just like, luckily I have enough work that I start doing the things I want to do that. I don't feel like I have to, that I have to think about that. But yes, when I was a kid, I thought I was going to be, you know, the next Bruce Lee or whatever. I don't know. Like, you know, so I thought I was, I, I literally, I, I was like

many kids who was like Eddie Murphy, I want to do that. Yeah. I want to do everything he's doing. And at some point, you realize either you're making choices that aren't leading you there, or you're pretending that you're making choices that you aren't making. And I just was like, honest about the fact that like, I'm not making those choices. Yeah. And it was scary at the time, but I think it just sort of, I got lucky that as much as we, this evil internet that we talk about, it just sort of, things got more democratized in media. So like there was an ability to like go to, I can just put up a brown paper tickets link in Seattle and go, I'm coming down to a theater that seats 150 people.

Do you want to come Seattle? And they were like, yes. You know, like, so, you know, like I, it was easier to sort of go your own way. Yeah. Yeah. Now the TV show, the first TV show, it's on Comedy Central, right? Was that right? No, it was on FX.

Oh, on FX. Yeah. Is that an idea you had, or did you start to have that kind of people saying, hey, what else do you want to do? And then you go, oh, maybe I want to, you know. I mean, it really was like, when I wrote my solo show, I really was like, well, what kind of show would I have if somebody said you can have the show you want? And I was like, it'd be like The Daily Show, but it'd be about race. So that was always my operating statement.

But I don't have the ability to pull that off, so I'm in a theater with a projector and slides. a theater with a projector and slides and so by the time so what happened is that chris rock came and sees comes and sees it and he sort of sees the vision in a way that i don't even see it like yeah this is a tv show but he also has more experience here so yeah it sort of was always based on chris rock seeing me do the bell curve and him being like oh yeah that's i could see where that would be a show now at the time totally biased ended up sort of becoming it just sort of this you know and you know this the struggle of like if there's a person on stage talking it's a late night talk show was always the battle that i was like i'm just it's just a tv show like yeah yeah i kind of wish they'd come on sunday mornings on pbs you know yeah uh but just sort of because then there'd be these articles written about

you know yeah uh but just sort of because then there'd be these articles written about what's going on in late night and it's like conan fallon kimmel and me and i'm like that's not really yeah yeah and there's also the pressure to like do you know any famous people so we can get some viral content look i just got into showbiz this morning i don't know the most famous person i know is is Chris Rock and we can't put him in every sketch. You know, so it's always amazing to me, the people, the people who give you the job and that, you know,

then they're like, all right, now can you call your friends and have them be in this thing? Yes. No, don't. That's your job. You're supposed to be the,

I'm just supposed to be pretty. I'm supposed to just be, yeah, I'm supposed to be able to just relax and be myself. Yeah. Yeah. And so I really think that like, and it was also,

you know, I wasn't, I had no TV experience. So all the failures I accept, I do feel proud that like, I feel like a little bit of the work that we did sort of open the door for, because like after, after our show gets canceled, like with very short order,

Trevor Noah's at the daily show, Sam gets her own show, John Oliver. I just wish I'd been able to go to John Stewart university. Like they did. I feel like I w I needed that. Yeah. Yeah. But you know,

it did sort of that style of show becomes the thing that they give out to more than just John Stewart. But yeah, for me, it was just like, people got to see me get beat up in real time. I mean, sort of like, and cause we went from once a week to four days a week, was just not i think if we'd stayed once a week we would have been able to we would have gotten better but four days a week it was just as you know that system

it's a meat grinder i always say it's it's laying track for a train that's moving it's coming towards you and if you don't put the tracks down you're going to be murdered you know yeah and i always felt like i said it's like a meat grinder And sometimes there's meat to put in the grinder, but if there's not, they just put me in the meat grinder. Come out, we're out of meat. You're going back in the meat grinder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was also because our show, even though it was only a half hour long,

it was such a, there was an interview segment, but there were so many jokes and so many written things that it just demanded a lot of like, and it was also trying to be thoughtful. It demanded a lot of like, and it was also trying to be thoughtful. It demanded a lot of material. Yeah. And we didn't have sort of the machine of the daily show that sort of like had been doing it for a long time and also sort of was probably working on shows

10 weeks from now. Yeah. You know, like we were like, we were always working on tomorrow, that night's show, basically. We were always like trying to fix that night's show. And so, and I hired a lot of my friends, which was great and also awful, because then you're your friend's boss, and then that gets weird.

Yeah. But, I mean, when it was over, I literally thought, well, I think show business is done with me. I felt like I was a good run. Was it two seasons? I mean, it was sort of like a season and a half, because the first season was like, it was eight episodes and it was 12 episodes.

They kept sort of extending it. And then the second season was four days a week. And that's when it was just like, I don't even know. People ask me, how many episodes did you do? I have no idea. A million? I don't know. It was just sort of, it's all a blur.

Sometimes people remind me about about literally people I interviewed. I'm like, oh, yeah, we did interview Issa Rae before she was on TV. That was a good and I'll remember it. That was a really good interview. Yeah, yeah. I do that all. I'd like all the people that I. Yeah.

I'm like, did I meet that person or have I just seen them on television? Yes. My particular weird little niche. Pinhole in the world. Well, I mean, was the network pretty good to you? I mean, did you have a good relationship and got to do what you wanted to do? I was in the position a few months before the pandemic of going back. I hadn't seen most of of going but i hadn't

seen any most of those people i hadn't seen any of them in years but i went back to fx to pitch something for with a friend of mine and it was like a high school reunion they're like come on because i think they always thought that i had a career in me and so i think they feel like happy that that i did get end up with a career yeah and and also they expressed regret about how it all went down and so we were able to it's like when you when you run into your ex but you're both doing fine you know so yeah uh but yeah so they the network was great uh john langrath has been talked about many times as being he is great it just it was just the i wasn't ready and then they had never done that before and so it was just a lot of like learning on the fly. Yeah.

And we drove into the wheels right off and it fell off. And it exists in people's memories, which in a great way, like people on Twitter, like even if I promote United Shades, some people are like, but what about Totally Biased? I'm like, that's cute. It's never coming back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I do feel like it's a little bit like Woodstock. More people are claiming they were there than were there. And also it's been off long enough that I've heard people like I used to like it's a little bit like Woodstock. More people are claiming they were there than were there. And also, it's been off long enough that I've heard people like,

I used to watch it in middle school, and now I have a PhD, and I'm like, Jesus. No, I know. You can't. You got that shit just made. I remember when, you know, at my bris, you were doing it. Oh, no, fuck. I'm old.

Yeah, no. So it's like people have like, it helped form a lot of people's political ideology which is great so it's uh but yeah definitely was like it was it's when i i think about it it's like i'm glad i wouldn't be here if not for that and also at the time it felt horrible when it was canceled but also felt like i couldn't survive it so it was uh yeah yeah it's the kind of thing too i think that kind of show that i think a lot of the things that like really get traction and last when there's somebody like you it's because there's somebody running the show or something something that really somebody that really knows that they're doing yes who gives you a sense of safety whereas if you have to be the guy on camera and also the brave soul with his hand on the rudder behind

the scenes it's a lot it's a lot and there's a lot you don't know what you're doing tv you don't yeah the only way to know what to do on tv is to be on it for 10 years yeah and then you just get a sense like okay this is what you do you know i don't mean one thing i read you know yeah i read both those late night books written by bill carter yeah uh it was like it was because i was just like trying to figure it out yeah and i remember there was a thing and they were probably no help they well they were like they showed me like oh this is what i'm missing like there was like yeah i was reading about the behind the scenes people and i mean so i was obviously reading about conan's like, I was reading about the behind the scenes people. And I mean, so I was obviously reading about Conan show and I was reading about how,

like, like, and I, it's weird to say this to you, but there was like, Conan's exec was like, Conan felt like if he left the room that his exec would say, people knew that if they heard it from the exec,

it's like hearing it from Conan. You may know not that to be true, but that was the sense of like, Conan could leave the room and feel like that his, that whatever he wanted was still going to be said and sort of instituted. That's true. With his, with Jeff Ross, our executive producer. Yes, that's true.

I knew the exact opposite was true. Ah, yeah, yeah. And I remember reading about Jeff Ross, like, I need a Jeff Ross. Because I knew that if I left the room, that what was happening was like, the executive was like, look, I don't know what Kamau's talking about anyway. He's, I don't know why he's so stressed out. We all got jobs anyway. So like I, so that's the thing that I was missing was that, that feeling that like somebody had my back. And so,

but it sort of defined how I went forward. Like I don't have any patience for that anymore. Yeah. Like if I feel like if it's, if it's not clear to me, you don't have my back, then it's like, then it's, we got to go again. I get the fuck out of here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it just, it becomes a matter of efficiency. It's like, I can't,

I can't, you can't, I mean, I still try to be a very painfully polite person. I try to be a, youfully polite person i tried to be a you know a considerate person but i also learned how to say no and how to say like this is does not work or when something's you know pitched to me and i just am like oh no i'm not i'm not gonna do that yeah i'm not gonna do that that's not good that's not right you know and that's the thing i ran into is like

there's nothing worse than being repitched the thing you said no to yeah yeah you know and there's nothing worse than being repitched it more than once yeah like so like things just like and so eventually just like okay because that eventually it's like well the show shoots tonight and this is all we have is this thing you said no to two days ago yeah yeah all right well i guess i will uh offend my mom and every person in my life who knows me and knows i don't think this way because this is what we're doing because yeah because we got we got to sell you know arid extra dry or whatever yeah so i just was like it was just this thing where i was just you know again i became the meat and yeah i mean i wrote about

this in my book the last episode of the show like everybody's like, like we knew the show was canceled. The audience knew we found out like two days before. I was actually like, oh, thank God. Like I was like, I would, I'd love to see the shot because I think it's on camera. I would imagine it was like, thank you. I was like, thank you. That's the show. It's been a great ride, everybody.

And there's the stage is filled with people. It's just random nonsense. And then like we, the camera stopped down and it was like and it was like i sort of would check with the stage manager are we good any pickups nope and i just walked out of the building like on the elevator downstairs and like didn't even get in the car and just walked uptown in new york like wow like just like i like with my it's funny i almost changed my clothes and then my friend martha who had directed my one-person show who i brought on in the second season because i needed somebody on my back yeah i was like i am like with my it's funny i almost changed my clothes and then my friend martha who had directed my one-person show who i brought on in the second season because i needed somebody on my

back i was like i'm gonna go change clothes and i'm gonna walk i'm gonna go i'm gonna get out of here as soon as possible she's like you don't have to change clothes i'm like you're a genius i own these clothes now yeah yeah yeah yeah and yeah because it was just like i you know walked out of it like it was on fire yeah you know did you have a kid at this point yeah no i had a daughter yeah so she yeah so she was like her when she was born it was right around the time that it was like we were starting to take meetings about is this going to be a tv show yeah and so her early life was like like we were in san francisco then we moved to new york to an apartment that sucked then moved to another apartment that sucked yeah moved to a San Francisco, then we moved to New York to an apartment that sucked. Then we moved to another apartment that sucked. Then we moved to a real apartment.

And then we would Airbnb back here in the Bay Area when we were on vacation. So we'd see our family and friends. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so she, we talk about it now. She doesn't really remember it, but there's lots of, there's a great photo of her with Don Cheadle, Don Cheadle's blowing bubbles for her. And I'm like, some of this was worth it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don Cheadle blue bubbles for my daughter yeah neither one of them remember it but i have a picture of it yeah i have a good picture of my son when he was about three uh with a lollipop uh with snoop dog with uh it was our was our christmas card one year my son was very chill and you know and and snoop was great too because like somebody i think it was like the segment producer was like telling my son like get up on snoop's lap and my son wasn't wanting snoop like was like he's cool where he is like snoop understood like the perspective of the

child like no he doesn't want to do don't make him do what he doesn't want to do don't make him sit on a stranger's lap for your entertainment. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, that's the, every now and then with my kids, it's like, there's this sort of thing where it's like, they get to sort of be, have access to these cool things and you go,

well, I guess this is what makes the, the grind of this business. Okay. You know, paying rent. And also my kids get to like, you know,

the other day they got to say hi to Kelly Clarkson. Cause I did her show. It's like, it's from trolls. Yeah. Yeah. yeah it all works it works out on some level while you're like panicking about what happens next were you worried i mean i imagine you didn't you weren't home much when you were doing the show when you know it was like i mean it was that's the thing it was also run inefficiently so it's like you know 12 hour days regularly you know i think there's also this is also the thing about comedy there's sort of a romance about working late hours and like

you know like you know we were there all night and you know and this is like i didn't want to be there all night yeah i don't either and so it really was hard on it's hard on my marriage it was hard on me i like was sort of like i just got i was sick a lot like it was just like you know a friend of my friend harry kondabolu who's he's been on conan a couple times yeah yeah he was like he said to me at one point on the show he was like oh my god i just realized something you can't ever have a sick day i was like nope yeah no you can't no you if you do you owe it to the network they don't they don't yeah yeah yeah so yeah it was uh i was yeah and that's when i when i left the show i was like whatever happens next i have to make it work better for my family

like yeah because like i can imagine when you've got a little baby at home and you think this is what success is going to be like this for me what i do this work life that's my work life from now on yes and then you think like well oh well yeah that's that's too much like from now on. And then you think like, well, Oh, well, that's, that's too much. Like, yeah. And it's like too big a price to pay. And you sort of go,

well, I'm successful and I'm making money. But there was a point it was like, I don't even know how much money I'm making. Cause I don't, I'm not, it's not making my life fun. Like it's not like, it's not like,

yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have that. Like it's, it's just work. Like I can be working for free for all I know. Like it can be just room and board. I have no idea because I'm just working. yeah i don't have that like it's just work like i could be working for free for all i know like

it could be just room and board i have no idea because i'm just working there's not like that thing where it's like i see those pictures on instagram of people on yacht like i don't when do i get to do that like to sort of like to you know and so it just felt like it really was just an intent and we were in a new city like me me and my my wife and Sammy moved to a new city. So it wasn't even like we were around. We couldn't see our friends or family. No support structure. Yeah. And that's when my wife got canceled.

Melissa, my wife, got pregnant. And the thing that really swung us moving back to the Bay Area was like, a baby in New York City when you don't have any family or friends? Like, no. Like, that's us. We got to go. All it takes is dragging a stroller up or down subway steps and you realize no no no this is so funny because new yorkers know that

and so there's always somebody who will help you do it but it just feels so like depressing well what do you i mean at this point, does it does the passing of totally biased make you rethink the direction that you're going? Like, do you think like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you think like maybe I should not do such kind of social commentary kind of material? No, I just felt like I don't want two things. One, it was funny to say this now. I was like, I don't think I should ever take a job at a corporation because fx was fox i was like it just felt like a lot of it felt like working at a corporation and not like we're you know and so it's funny now we're at cnn so that i know i know well i mean

because that's like that's like that's a naive thing to say because it's like a hurt thing to say right and it's like well even if you you know you're like you're gonna eventually have yeah because if you're gonna make money if you if you're going to really be engaged in capitalism, eventually it's your own by a subsidiary of somebody. Yeah, yeah. So, no, so I just was like, but I was like, but there was sort of talk about like maybe rebooting it or all these sort of like people wanting, like getting pitches to go do it at other, doing similar things. I was like, I can't do, I don't want to do an instant news response show because really that hadn't been how I had worked in general I'd worked in like longer sort of bigger longer-term cultural things about racism not like I hated sort of the aspect of the show was like here's the dumb thing the the dumb person said yesterday yeah yeah and I think

sometimes I'll write those jokes on Twitter but I hate it I felt like you're just also you're just looking for that you're just combing the news for that, but I hate it. I felt like you're just also just looking for that. You're just combing the news for that. And then I hate it. If you don't find one, you just find one that feels close enough. Yeah, yeah. Like this feels even though you're like you really would in any other situation, you'd give them the benefit of the doubt. Right, right, right.

I remember we were like looking at a video of Guy Fieri on Totally Biased, something he had had an argument with somebody. And there was joke pitches for Guy Fieri because he had had an argument with someone. I'm like, what are we doing? What did he do that we're that mad at him? I know, I know. That I need to stand on stage and be like, look at this asshole. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. That kind of thing is always like, everybody's got to make their living. I always feel like he's over there doing his thing. And it was like a person. It was clearly like a cell phone video that he wouldn't want. And like he was he's probably embarrassed. It's out there in the world. It's like, you know.

Yeah. So just to me, it was like there was a moment like I don't want to be that. I don't want to be the instant response to the news. Yeah. And so I was like, whatever I do, it's got to be something that feels that are more. And I don't want to date. I don't want anything in the talk show universe i was like i don't want anything so it did change how but i also thought i was probably just going to be a guy who was like doing college shows and hustling for the right because i was like there's nobody in tv's going

to be interested like i just felt like i it felt like such a like a such a colossal failure that i was like nobody then i'd seen specifically black men have colossal failures like that and sort of basically disappear yeah you know as far as like talk shows and or tv shows and so I was like I'm that guy and again I just was lucky that the tv universe had expanded and so I ended up having meetings with like news networks or news outlets because they saw me as like a funny news person. Yeah. And CNN had already had just like gotten Anthony Bourdain show and Lisa Ling. And they had just sort of launched these shows where they basically said, come do your show over here.

And they were like looking to build one from the ground up. And I had always been sitting on my wife's couch back in the day going watching Bourdain going like, how do you get that job? Yeah. Yeah. had always been sitting on my wife's couch back in the day going watching Bourdain going like how do you get that job yeah yeah like so it was just like I wouldn't have I didn't know how to apply for that job but that was actually the job I always wanted was like how do you get the walking around talking to people and saying funny things yeah and so I was lucky that there was an opening there that they didn't know I'd always wanted that job but then it I ended up there and it was able to the thing they pitched me I was able to sort of spin into what i wanted it to be which is what we have now so yeah but at the time it was just a pilot so it was just like shoot this pilot with the kkk and hope it works out that's most things

with the kkk air like that yeah it works out yeah basically yeah yeah well uh i mean the show is doing real well now isn't it yeah it's yeah i mean we've i mean it's the great thing about cnn is that there's just not a lot of they only have a handful of shows so they take care of them pretty well so are very well i'll say very well since i just signed a new contract they take care of them very well yeah yeah but yeah and i'm not i don't feel like i'm competing with other shows and other networks it's just sort of like i was gonna say there's not like this huge pressure to like yeah get a better number than the other guy or the other guy or the other guy yeah yeah you have to just outdraw what the news would do on sunday nights at 10 o'clock

which is very little like you know and and when the news is bigger than me they bump me for that news yeah it's like it's not there's a very clear hierarchy and so yeah bump me for that news i go people get i can't believe they bumped your show i'm like hey if they bump it that means it's still on the air so so yeah so just and then i was i got to have the the spot of following bourdain's show which was like the spot every original series wanted which let me know that they cared about my show yeah and so it was just like this thing where it was like it it couldn't have worked out better for a who was like, I don't think I want to work in TV again. Yeah.

And then over the course of the show's going into its fifth season, I've been able to make the show more in my image every year. So to the point of like this year is the first year the show's actually being produced by the same company that produced Bourdain's show. Yeah. So it's like it's I mean, it taken, it has been a fight and a struggle. And, uh, some people are, some people got fired and some people I said,

you know, I had to sort of draw lines in the sand and go, I'm not doing this. If this, and you know, and I've, and the shows, some shows I look back on and I'm like,

Oh, that's embarrassing. I can't believe I did that. Cause I didn't know better. But like, I definitely feel like it, I'm able to make the show in my own image and it's not a big network show where it feels like there's a lot of pressure on it. I get to sort of say what I want to say.

Yeah. Now you just finished. You said you were just finishing up kind of recording and stuff for the new season or. Yeah, we've been recording. I think that I think I recorded last. The idea was two days ago in my wife's closet. And when and when does it is, is it the new season started? No, it starts July 19th.

They just announced it yesterday. Wow. July 19th, we, Sundays at 10 o'clock, July 19th, which it was supposed to be started, it was supposed to start in April, the end of April, but, you know, there's been some news. So my show's going to get pumped. Yeah, you know, there's, and actually,

there's been a lot of stuff in the news about race lately. Yeah. You're really Yeah, I read that. I heard that on NPR. Now, this is – I mean, you know, because I find myself wondering, what was the – you know, like, why was this the breaking point? why was why was this the breaking point you know and i and my only answer to that is you know like george floyd just happened at a time when with the pandemic and trump it was just like enough you know like why why wasn't it somebody before you know why you know i mean i think i think when people like again i think when you say the breaking point i think for black people there's been a lot of breaking points.

Of course. We were able to like, and I just say that to say that, like, for me, Eric Garner was the breaking point. Like I was just like, dude, just because I think also there's something about him that I feel like I am him. I'm a big black guy who's got asthma. Yeah. And so, but I think it is a hundred percent.

And, you know, one day somebody is going to write the book that says it's not this because somebody's going to have a hot take. Yeah. But until Malcolm Gladwell writes that book, it's 100% the pandemic. Like, everybody who cares about the news is at home watching the news. Yeah. And the news, especially, and the news said, pandemic, pandemic, wait a second, this.

And so all of us who were already paying attention to the news suddenly saw a video that maybe the news would have shown before the pandemic, but there would have been more news competing. And some of us would have been too busy going to the big concert in town or going to our yoga class or whatever. So even if it had been on the news, you just wouldn't have been watching the news that intently. Yeah. So it's the opportunity to be able to see it that many times and i think it was such a like a there's all sorts of black people been killed by the cops but to see the whole thing play out you can see it from stem to stern there's not like it's not a 15 second video that people are like i need to know the whole story you can see the whole story and and the insidious way in which the cop does it like where it's like he's clearly not even he doesn't feel any he's not struggling to do the thing he's doing he's just doing it he's just

killing him yeah so i think it's it's it is the perfect storm but i think that it very easily could have been any other videos if it if they had come through at this time so i think i think sometimes i don't want to say that george floyd's death's death is worse than anybody else's or more hard to watch. Yeah, that's what gets hard. That's what gets hard is that you don't want to diminish people's horrors. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine. We don't have video of Breonna Taylor, but you're in your house in bed with your boyfriend, and suddenly the door gets—

And they just shoot through the wall. Yeah, they just start shooting like amazing if we had video of that i would like to think that that would be the thing we would be talking more about yeah yeah we're still working hard to keep people talking about it but i think that like or this kid i just found out like i'm finding about other black people who were killed who i hadn't even heard about this kid elijah mclean 23 year old dude you know the violinist kid yeah yeah these i mean to me and this is why that one's hard on me because he's like he's just a black weirdo i'm a black weirdo like you know like he's just walking down the street being weird just a sweetheart just like a sweetheart delicate creature that's like

too too i don't mean this in derogatory too soft for this world he's just too like can't just can't too much love and too much empathy and too much just and yet vulnerability and yet have been clearly but it felt like he had been sort of he had learned how to talk about himself to people who didn't understand him yeah he's like i'm an introvert like he was like yes that to me that's language you learn yes because you've had to deal with conflict before right and i love you all like yes yeah yeah just the way like i'm trying to be clear about like yeah i understand that you don't understand me yeah and i want to help you understand me and they didn't give him that option and there's audio the audio of that is horrible

it's just it's heartbreaking if there'd been video of that and we and it was george floyd that would be i think i think the i think the thing that's important is to go like george floyd's murder does mean something and it's, and, and more, a lot of work is being built off the back of this horrible event, but it's people, you know,

Rashard Brooks was killed after George Floyd. Yeah. You know, it's a, there was a, there's two people in Atlanta who the cops broke the windows in their cars and, and pepper sprayed them and they didn't die.

Yeah. Yeah. They didn't die, but it's like, if you know, but like, why has that got to be okay? You know? think that like the the the i think it's the pandemic is what has done it you know the striking thing to me too and i think and again i think

you're right it is the pandemic because i mean i can only speak for myself. I agree with you 100%. I'm used to the outrage that you feel at a Philando Castile, and then life goes on, you know, and there's more stuff. And it's like the guy had a fucking gun license. Like, you know, he did everything he's supposed to do. He told them he was like, yeah. And, you know, and all it's and which, you know, it undercuts all that and he and you know and all it's and which you know it undercuts all

that gun bullshit you know and the nra didn't stand up for all fucking bullshit yeah yeah but the one thing about about uh george floyd is that even like the sort of you know soft racists you know like your sort of power structure kind of like you know like they're not really overtly but you really got a sense of people saying like oh yeah that was really bad yes oh yeah that well you gotta admit that was bad because so many other you know there's so many other videos that are just fucking horrible and people like well yeah you know that he should have done what they told him you know well i think the other thing, too, is that a lot of times I think specifically white folks, those soft races, they don't actually watch the videos. No. So they hear about it. Maybe they maybe it flashes by them on the news, but they don't sit down and watch it.

Yeah. And so their judgment is based on just sort of like I'm pro police. The police probably did a good job. I might put half an eye on it, but I'm not going to watch it. Yeah. You know, I think with George floyd people had ample opportunity to watch it and i think for and i think the other thing is that the country trump and his and his administration and many states around the country have done such a poor job of the pandemic that people were already feral just with the fact that the pandemic they'd done yeah yeah yeah the pandemic was a good way to put it yeah yeah that people are already like and in the midst of this you're gonna do this yeah i gotta go to the street i gotta go make my voice be heard so i think that like

if if the if the if the if in in an alternate universe president hillary clinton had said there's a global pandemic and i've been talking to this guy, Andrew Yang, who none of you have heard of because he hadn't run for president, but he's a Silicon Valley guy. And he's convinced me about universal basic income. And so during the extent of the pandemic, every American gets $2,000. Not that that's enough money for everybody, but just to sort of help you get through it. Your rent is canceled, your mortgage is canceled, and we're going to make the banks whole so they don't get mad about losing that money and we're just going to spend whatever that is because we're america and we just make money like yeah yeah yeah and and that then the george floyd thing happens and i'm not saying i

wish that didn't i think it reads differently people aren't feral and frustrated with how the government is treating them already. So I think that there's just a lot of different things that hopefully, I mean, I hope leads to structural and institutional change. But the appetite has to be there after we get a vaccine, if we get a vaccine, because I think that or and also if and if this if we just become pandemic America, like we never lose the pandemic again. At some point, people aren't in the streets every day anymore. But yeah, yeah. Hopefully, I'm sure some people are being inspired to run for office right now based on what's happening right now. And that's how we got the squad was people who were like Trump.

No, I'm not doing this. So I think I would imagine it will like change how to change people's ideas of what they can do and how they can affect change. So the police departments are slashing, not slashing, but taking money out of police departments that, that cities are taking money out of police departments as a part of that. Right. Right.

No, it's, it is, it is kind of like, okay, yeah, shit's finally happening. The shit that people have been screaming about for years and years.

And I go, okay. Yeah. I mean, Mississippi took the Confederate flag off their flag i mean that's yeah it's incredible it's incredible and you know and it is like i mean the thing that always strikes me about about racists is that and and why people like richard nixon or donald trump matter to racists is because they know it's bad they know racism is wrong they know it's wrong to prejudge a person based on the color

of their skin all they need is the permission to say that it's okay because they don't they wouldn't if they didn't think racism i mean they're overtly racist yeah if they didn't think racism, I mean, they're overtly racist. Yeah. If they didn't think it was bad, they wouldn't be so offended by being called a racist. Mm-hmm. You know, but it's like when you call somebody racist, they're like, I most certainly am not. Yes. I do not prejudge.

Like, well, yes, you fucking do. And you know it's bad. Yes. So every sort of like, you know, mush mouth kind of meandering rationale for some kind of basically racist, you know, whether it's a law or a program or an initiative, it's all they all know it's bad. And they just get really hurt when you say, yeah, but, you know, that's racist. Well, I always think about that moment when Trump was running for office and nobody was taking him seriously. And he was on Jake Tapper's show. And Jake Tapper asked him about the fact that he had, like, gotten support from the Ku Klux Klan and David Duke. And what did he think about it? And Trump's answer was like, well, I don't I don't I'd have to look at the groups and really understand what that meant and why they were supporting me.

Yeah. And Jake Tapper was like, the Klan and David Duke. And Trump was like, I'd have to really take a look at it and really see what's going on. And to me, that should be like, well, you're incapable of running for office if you can't. And again, as you said, even the Klan knows it's not a good look to be in the Klan, which is why they wear the hoods. So if you had said, I don't support the clan the clan would be like he's saying that but he really likes us they know right they know the code yeah he was he didn't want to offend the kukla clan and david duke yeah and and i think the problem is and this is happening right now with the careening of america white people generally don't see themselves as members of the

group of white people they see themselves as individuals. So like if that, when Ben Carson says what he says on TV, every black person goes, Oh, Oh Jesus. We're going to pay for that one. And we're going to come, we're going to get somebody to get to you. Like when he, whatever he said about defending Trump, but when white people see Trump on TV, if you didn't vote for him, you're like, well, I'm just not going to say his name anymore. And you don't feel it as like, that's a bad reflection on me.

And right now, I feel like white people are starting, some white people are starting to understand it's a bad reflection on you. Oh, I'm fucking, and I can't say this like on Twitter or something. I am continually fucking horribly embarrassed by my fellow whites. It's just like, people, come on. Like, you know, we are becoming, we're not, you know, the demographics, they're catching up to us. It's inevitable.

And either we go out classy, or we set the world on fire. And I think we've decided, we figured out what we've chosen. Yeah, we set the world on fire. And I think we've decided, we figured out what we've chosen. Yeah, we set the world on fire. I mean, I think that like, you know, I think that's the thing I would encourage you to, I mean, I've seen you on Twitter. I've seen you say things like that.

But I think the more that white people say that out loud, I mean, think about every time, like Kanye West has a new song that just came out and it becomes a debate. You see an open debate among black people on Twitter. Like, what are we doing here? Are we with it? I like the song. every time like kanye west has a new song that just came out and it becomes a debate you see an open debate among black people on twitter like what are we doing here are we with it i like the song but what about the trump stuff i know black people are open it's catchy it's catchy it's catchy well it feels like you learned his lesson i don't think you feel like like black people are always ready to have an open debate about the black people that we feel like are problematic diamond and silk we're like nope not with us like we're very clear about like but white people tend to sort of go you know in a way that i feel like it's ultimately not helpful

like i think i think the karen thing is a really great indicator of white people understanding like like there was one i saw recently like the fact that white women still keep karening even though it's a verb it's like they see themselves as individuals so some white woman was yelling at these black people saying you assaulted me and a bunch of other white women surrounded her going like they didn't those black people did not do that right right they wouldn't have done that six months ago yeah like that you understand like that's a reflection on you and also you have the privilege to go get her in a way that these black people the cops show up it's going to be their word against hers and we know how that goes down. And a lot of it.

And I don't mean I'm certainly not making excuses, but a lot of these people, they just don't have any clue. They don't have any clue about like the. How bad they are. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's. No, I mean, I've taken enough of your time, you know. But one of the first things you learn as a person of color this is true of certain religious groups

not Christianity in this country because it's the dominant culture but you're responsible for all the members of your people and you learn that as a black person if a black dude if there's two black kids in your class and you're one of them and the other black dude gets an F

you kind of got an F I gotta get an a to make sure he you know that you're responsible for the people around you and if you're either helping them or making it clear that you don't support what they're doing in a way that like you know like when when when when terrorists who are muslim commit violence everybody's like why aren't muslims blah blah they're like we're doing it all the time yeah you're not listening and why does it why does why does why do we have to do it louder like you know like we're doing we're the we're the biggest victims of this of course we're doing it right so but i think white people don't you know i think white people feel like your family is your responsibility maybe the maybe your your your friends are your responsibility but not the white

person even across not even your neighbor. If you don't like them, if they're white, like, I don't know that guy. I don't like that guys, but it's like they're there in the neighborhood I live in. There's white families and a black family and the black family with the

hill. I'm not friends with them, but if they come to my door and go like, Hey, I need your help. There's racism. I'm just going to go. All right.

Right. I'll just, I'll just run down the street. I don't even know where we're going. Yeah. Yeah. There's racism. I'm here.

I'm here. I'll grab my racism kit. They're making fun of my friends, Diamond and Silk. You got to help me. Hold on a second. Before we run, let's sit down and talk for a second. I would still have to address the issue. Now, when you say friends, how do you define friendship? What do you think about global warming?

Let's talk about, let's get real basic. Well, like I say, I've taken up enough of your time and we're getting to you know the wind up here and um the next step is like what's what's up for you next come out like what do you are you gonna eat more of the same i mean do you have some sort of i mean is there some secret goal we don't know about there's a secret yes it's it's a it's yacht time uh no i mean i i feel a responsibility to like really work harder to be a part of bringing other voices through the door yeah so i feel like if i like if this show if this cnn show which is going to be on for a few more years which is great but if i don't start bringing other voices through either cnn's door or other doors then i'm not really about this life as they say so i feel like a real to produce to because i

think the lesson of bourdain and he said this in the last in the show i did with him in kenya it's not about him it's about other people's voices and so for me it's like that's i take that very seriously and so i feel like if if if i'm not trying to i could just sit and do this job and be okay. But I think it's about figuring out other ways to get other voices to the door, even if it's not travel shows, just other ways to get other media. So, yeah, I definitely feel like I have to be a part of, like, kicking the door open and then holding the door open. Yeah. So, yeah.

And also, I hope to get a podcast. So those two things. I tell you, these things are real cash cows. Yeah, exactly. I hope I can get a podcast again. I'm really hoping, talking to my agent about it. How do we get a podcast? The podcast company bought me some nice headphones.

Nobody else ever did that for me. Oh, there you go. That's a good start. That's a good start. nobody else ever did that for me oh there you go that's a good start that's a good start but no i think that like i you know i ultimately the real goal is to figure out a way to like like you know it's funny as is all the time like my resting rate is pretty lazy i would i would like to just sort of do nothing as an only child i spend a lot of time doing nothing yeah so really all of this work i'm doing right now is to try to figure out a way to get back to doing nothing when i still have my

senses about me yeah so like so like i'm really like i why are you working so hard so i can do nothing right right right so i know yeah i don't see myself like if i'm still working this hard in 20 years great if there's still work but also i'll be like i didn't do something right did pixar call i want to do a rush in a movie yes you're an activist just to support your pacifist uh exactly exactly if you're if we yeah racism ends in america and institutional structural and i can just sort of be a black weirdo and also universal basic income becomes a thing and I can afford my bills on that. I'll be out. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know.

I said that once to Jeff Ross, our producer, years and years ago, or we were talking about the lottery. And I said something like, yeah, if I won the lottery, you would not see me again. And he laughed and said, like, really? And I said, yeah, pretty much. I don't need to be a talk show sidekick i mean i would put money into good causes i would still you know i'd be bored after a couple of years you know i don't think i'd get bored there's a i think i i mean i really do think i would figure it out like yeah i would love to figure out if i can get bored but no i i i mean but

there's a reason why neither one of us i I mean, are you playing the lottery? I do only occasionally. Yeah, see, I mean, I say that to him as well. It's like, but I'm not like that person who's got like $20 in lottery tickets every week. So, like, clearly, I feel like I got to get this through hard work. But if I found a lottery ticket that won, I would be like, where'd Kamau go? He was just here. Wow, he seemed really committed to all these issues but wow now it's just tumbleweeds yeah it's just like the aclu just got a hundred million dollar

like donation anonymously and kamau is gone kamau is gone yeah uh well thank you so much for well you know what layer i because there is the third question of my three questions is kind of like what have you learned and i think like for you i mean because so much for, well, you know what, Larry, because there is the third question of my three questions is kind of like, what have you learned? And I think like for you, I mean, because so much of what you do is either overtly or, you know, sneakily instructive. Like, is there something like what, I guess like for you, I'd put it like, what about your kids? what about your kids? Like what, what do you hope? What do you hope your kids learn from you that will make their way easier and

better? Just, I mean, yeah, the world changes, but I mean, what, what can they take from you?

I mean, I think the thing that, uh, what can they take from me? I, it's really important to me because I think we're both in this position of like raising kids with more privilege than we grew up with. Yes.

And so for me, it's like I want my kids to have the privilege of being an asshole but have the ego to not be – but to sort of have the humbleness to not be an asshole. Yeah. I think the greatest privileges of your kids can be like, you don't know who I am, but I also want my kids to have the empathy to never say that. So for me, it's like – I think the thing I'm trying to always remind them of, and I'll say is like, we don't deserve these nice things. We have them, but we don't, I don't want you to think you deserve all this. And I want you to have some sense of like charity and wanting the world to be

better. So I think that, and I, and they, and the two year old has not learned that she's all about herself, but the other two, we constantly talk about that. And so we've had a lot of real clear, direct conversations about George Floyd and coronavirus. And I'm happy that I feel like my kids are curious about it and want to know more about it while at the same time I want them to be kids. But so for me, that's the thing I had. I was a kid who was like, wait, tell me about this. Who's this Martin Luther King Jr. guy I keep hearing about?

You know? Yeah. But also, like, I want to play with Legos. So I think that's the thing I want them to have. You can enjoy your life, but also not be a jerk. Boy, that's a good one. Don't be a jerk. Jesus Christ.

Don't be a jerk. That's like, oh, that's like pan world advice. Yeah. Pan global advice. Just don't be a jerk. And encouraging their curiosity of, like, about the world. Like, it's great. Like, my kids were like, my kid today was like, what's the Like it's great. Like my kids were like,

my kid today was like, what's the fourth, my five year old was like, what's the 4th of July. Like understanding. Yeah. And so, you know,

answering that question instead of sort of, I was like, let's find a video. So we pulled up a video about the 4th of July. So like really that curiosity is the thing that I think I had that I'd like to see them continue. Well, thank you so much for this.

I appreciate you taking time out of your day and, you know, thank you. And so I'm happy to do it. No, it's great. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have these, all the conversations I have are like two minutes on the news. So I'm happy to have a long form conversation. Oh, good.

Good. Yeah. And I mean, I've always, you know, I've always liked it and, uh, you know i don't like many people i know that's what they say about you yeah yeah yeah so uh good luck with the new season it's again july 17th july 19th 19th and uh check it out yeah uh on cnn and um i hope to see you soon in the flesh yeah i mean i feel like i'm becoming i'm making a lot of good friendships in this pandemic i just don't know if i'll ever see these soon in the flesh. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm making a lot of good friendships in this pandemic. I just don't know if I'll ever see these people in real life. But I look forward to seeing you in real life.

Maybe have a meal or something. That would be great. That would be great. Well, thank you, Kamau. That was Kamau Bell. Thank you for your time. And thank you for listening to the three questions. And we will get back at you next time.

Thank you. I've got a big next time. Thank you. is Aaron Blair, associate produced by Jen Samples and Galit Sahayek, and engineered by Will Becton. And if you haven't already, make sure to rate and review The Three Questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.