The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Wyatt Cenac

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

Comedian and writer Wyatt Cenac talks with Andy Richter about reconnecting with his family in Grenada, interning for Late Night during his college years, fighting to make his voice heard as the only black writer on The Daily Show, and more.

there's like a weird crossover of like cartoonists and and uh sex you know perverts let's just call them perverts um no just like people that were into these like you know these like sub dom parties it's like spanky spanky parties timey up stuff and we they would throw these fundraising kind of parties where it'd just be like ran out of space and then they're just kind of at the beginning and there'd be some performances but then definitely the night would start to shift to where it's like oh no this is when the dildos come out and the real sort of like stomping on each other happens and then we would cut out. But we would show up like

we would show up like just for the first part. But then when the kids really get serious, then we're going home. When the trumpet of dildos begins. That's right. That's right. I imagine we've already started the show. I mean, that's what it seems like.

Hello, everyone. I'm talking to Wyatt Sinek. It's Sinek, right? Sinek. Sinek. Sinek. Oh, see, I didn't have it right there. No, it's a very easily butcherable last name.

And I've kind of gotten accustomed to it getting butchered. But it's very nice that you asked. Well, thank you. I like to try and say people's names right. So anyway, yeah. And I have never heard your name. I have never heard your name pronounced with the proper accent, with Sinek. Yeah. I feel like I, it's a strange thing of, I'm not, I'm not at that level of fame where I have a publicist who is going to go

around sort of correcting people. I think I'm still just happy to be in, in the room and invited. So it's just like, you, you didn't, you didn't call me Jeff Tweedy. And that probably is a problem a lot.

Yeah, well, it's mostly people being like, I wish Jeff Tweedy was here. Because this guy does not know any Americana at all. He's not of that sort of alt-folk. Yeah. He gave him a guitar and he couldn't do anything you're uh are you in brooklyn are you at home in brooklyn now or i am at home yeah and how is your i this is now i mean it's so fucking boring but it's just how has your uh pandemic been uh it has been uh it's it's been long you know i think i've been very fortunate in that uh nobody uh in my sort of immediate circle of of people uh was sick too badly i think a few people got sick, but nothing horrible.

And so I think in that way, I feel very fortunate. Brooklyn has now kind of set... Well, let's start at the beginning with you. You were born in New York City, correct? I was born in New York City. But you are of Caribbean descent? I am. in New York City. But you are of Caribbean descent? I am. My father is from Grenada. Yeah.

And for those who don't know, Grenada is one of the lower Antilles. Is it an Antilly? I know. It's a virgin island. Oh, it's a virgin island. Oh, okay. Yeah. And it's right off the coast of Venezuela.

It's like Trinidad, Tobago, Grenada, and maybe a couple others right there. Yeah. Just spitting distance from Venezuela. Yeah. Very small, small island, but beautiful. Kind of unique to the Caribbean islands in that it has a volcano and it has rainforest and black sand beaches. Wow. Yeah, it's kind of a unique one that some people, it's hillier as opposed to like, some of the islands are a little more flat land.

And yeah, yeah, there was, I think some people like to believe that it was, that it had floated away from the Hawaiian islands. That's not true, but that's what people like to believe. That's ridiculous. Yeah.

Islands don't float. Oh, no. I'd like to meet those people. Well, there's three of them, and I can give you their addresses. Do you go back much? Do you have family there still? I mean, because you're from, like, a fairly prominent family.

Didn't you have, like, some fancy politicians in your background? Sort of. So I don't know if it's a fancy background. I come from a line of coup people. Oh, yeah. Timely. Exactly. So I went back for the first time a couple of years ago.

I'd actually never I'd actually never been. Oh, wow. My mother and my father split up when I was pretty young. I see. My father died when I was young, when I was four. And so I never went back until I was an adult. But the thing I knew about my family is there's an uncle in my family who was a part of Maurice Bishop's New Jewel movement. out the prime minister eric geary who had also come into power by pushing out uh colonial uh colonial rule yeah uh and so both maurice bishop and eric geary are kind of seen as like two people

who helped bring grenada its independence um but my uh this great uncle of mine was uh yeah he was maurice bishop's number two and then apparently there was uh a coup within that coup and my uncle uncle, who I do not know, and let me just stay for the record, don't know the guy, but... Still alive? I think so. Yeah. But he is, depending on who you talk to, he either ordered the arrest and execution of Maurice Bishop, who is a beloved figure in Grenada. The airport is named for him.

Or he was being used as a pawn by U.S. military. And this coup within the coup precipitated the US invasion of Grenada I think some days later so yeah it's a weird even when I went back I was like I'm excited to go back but I don't want to get too much

into the story of this with anybody because I don't want them to be like wait a minute you're the nephew of yeah yeah guy and i'm like well not really like i've never gotten a birthday card from the guy yeah my mom remarried i don't know yeah we're not even that close like he's like removed i don't even know my grandfather. Don't give me, don't tie me to this guy.

Yeah. Oh, so have you, when you went back, did you try and reconnect with some of your, your dad's relatives or? Yeah. So I actually have some half brothers and I met one of my half brothers when I was down there, which was really, it was wild. It was, it was really like, I didn't expect that I would get as emotional as I did. He, on the other hand, not very emotional, but I was definitely the little brother in that moment because I was just just it was the closest to my father that I had been. The whole trip was really just like an emotional roller coaster for me. But, yeah, so I met that brother and then I went to my father's hometown and my father's buried in his hometown.

hometown and my father's buried in his hometown and so i went to go find his grave because i'd never i'd never seen it yeah uh and while i was there grenada is such a small island that while i was in the while i was in the cemetery i couldn't find his headstone and i was just kind of like looking around and i walked through the whole place and the the groundskeepers of the cemetery were three goats and so there's an element where like the goats are near some headstones and i'm like i can't i don't know if they're hanging out by his and I'm like weirded out and I'm by myself. And after a while, I was just like, I'm not going to find this. And I happened to walk across the street where there was an old woman sitting and I started talking to her. And she was like, oh, wait a minute.

Your father, he went to New York and he was he was killed in New York. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, oh, wait a minute. Your father, he went to New York and he was killed in New York. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah, I know that story. As she starts telling it, she basically is telling me we're related, she and I. But she's not saying we're related. She's like, yeah, he's the nephew of my husband or something like that. And I'm like, okay, so that makes you my aunt. No, no, he's the nephew of my husband.

And I'm like, okay. And then she tells me where my- That's kind of cold. It was. It was really, it was very- Oh, we're not family. No, no, no. She's not getting a holiday card but

but uh it was this very strange thing that i she then told me oh your family is buried like right as you walk in right to the left they're there and i went back in and stood there and it was kind of what my whole trip felt like in that I am standing there and I can't find my father's headstone he has an unmarked grave and so I'm standing basically in front of my, my father, but I can't see him. Yeah. And that's kind of what the whole trip going back was like, as I was like on beaches,

looking at the ocean, the way that my father probably did growing up, but I don't know his experience and I'm in his hometown and I'm seeing things, but I really, I'm alone and I don't really know, and i'm in his hometown and i'm seeing things but i really i'm alone and i don't really know like you know i'm stumbling across people who are maybe my aunt if they so choose to be yeah yeah and so it was a very yeah so it was a very odd kind of kind of thing i would love to go back again um it's a beautiful, beautiful island and I definitely felt a real

ton of emotions while I was there. But yeah, it was a strange sort of thing even just to reconnect, or I should say to connect with my half-brother. Yeah, I think that that is kind of all of you know the kind of it's the way everybody's like you know now with getting their dna tested and everything about where they're from and it's like oh like it's always weird to me like the the the ads where they're like we thought we were greek and then I found out I'm actually from Israel, you know?

And then they change all their garb, you know, like their celebratory garb that they used to wear. And it's kind of like, I don't know which matters more, like the action of what you're sort of commemorating or like the supposed truth of what you're commemorating. And to go back to a, like a hometown of someone that, yes, you have that genetic connection, but it's like, so this is me, but it's not me. You know, it's like, it must be a weird disorienting feeling.

And especially too, when it's like from such a beautiful place, like. I can just project that I would feel like I wish I had some ownership of this place rather than just kind of the detached kind of ethereal attachment that I have to this place. Yeah. And I definitely had that. that I feel like to be there it was this strange thing of I don't uh you know I don't sound like anyone else in the island and you know it's an island that is like you know it is a black island and yet I am a fair-skinned black person so I don't look like most of the people on the island. So I kind of there, you know, there are people my complexion, but they're rarer on the island. So there's this aspect of it where it's like, oh, yeah, I don't have the accent.

I don't really look like most of the people I'm seeing. like most of the people I'm seeing, I, you know, and so I don't, I feel kind of trapped between two worlds in a strange way where this is like, you know, I can tell someone,

Oh yeah. My like, and I would, I remember talking to a bartender and I was like, yeah, my, uh, my,

my, my father's from here and he kind of, you know, he was very nice, but he kind of looked at me in this way of like, oh, okay, you know, that's your father. You're not really, like, I don't see you as one of us. And so it was definitely, in a lot of of ways a very strange experience, but one that I'm incredibly glad that I had and one that definitely made me really get introspective in a way that was like, oh, yeah, I did this.

Why was I doing this? Was I doing this hoping that I'd get off the airplane and people would be like, he's returned! He's here! And lift me on their shoulders. Obviously, that's what happens. That's what I hope happens wherever I go. Sure.

Yeah. Cleveland. He's here! Oh, I would love it in Cleveland. They take me straight to Cedar Point and I get to ride all the roller coasters, skip the line. Yeah. It's the American dream. Now, you didn't grow up, though, in New York.

You moved to Texas, correct? I did. I moved to Texas when I was pretty young. You were little, right? Yeah. I was very small. Yeah, my mother remarried my stepfather

and then he got a job that sent us to Dallas, Texas. So I did most of my most of my growing up there all my school and everything and then I would come back to New York

because my grandmother lived here. So I'd come back and see her and spend time. But yeah, Dallas is, it's where I learned, it's where I learned book, book stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. Is, and, and what did your, and are your stepdad and your mom still together or? They are. Yeah. So you did,

you had a, you know a a male presence a father figure at least yeah yeah yeah i think it's it's a strange thing because i and i did but there is always still that thing that is like as appreciative as I am for all the sacrifices that my mother and my stepfather made so that I could go to school, go to college, you know, go to the dentist, do all those things. There's also the part of it that's like, well, your biological parents are your biological parents. And especially when you lose them very young, I think there's just always, you always wind up mourning that loss. And it's an unfillable hole that I think it takes a long time to kind of like recognize that, oh, right, this is an unfillable hole. And that's okay.

And I can appreciate other people in my life. But also I know that I have this void here that will always be here. Yeah, yeah. Well, you could fill it up with drugs and drink. That's all right. Let's do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, you could fill it up with drugs and drink. That's all. Alright, let's do it! Yeah! Oh, wow! He's actually drinking moonshine out of a jar, it

looks like. Yeah, no, I've been that some people are baking bread. I've been making my own moonshine. It's great. He really is. Folks, he's really drinking something clear out of what looks like a pickle jar. It is a pickle jar, yeah. Is it a pickle jar?

I'm making my own bathtub, Jim. So what kind of kid were you? I mean, you're kind of a laconic person, you know, a little bit uh you know on the quieter side you know you don't you don't you don't like scream your presence is what i guess i should say you know no that's fair that's fair um yeah i mean i think i was as a child my stepfather would refer to me as an old man a lot and he would call me babu which he said meant old man where he was from uh and he's from the island of trinidad my oh wow my mother had a thing for caribbean guys apparently yeah yeah she's trying to book those vacations early why don't we go to your family this year

um but uh i yeah i i definitely there were i feel like when i was around my family, I got very used to being quiet and not being a disruption. Yeah. And I think outside the house, all that pent up energy would sometimes show up and I could be a little hyper outside of the house. And in the house, I felt like i couldn't get away with anything um and i had to be kind of the model citizen and so i feel like yeah outside of the house sometimes i would kind of like i wasn't much of like a screamer but i i i definitely was a little more hyper but i think i was constantly at war with myself of like the hyper wanting to be hyper,

but also terrified if word got back to, uh, to mother and stepfather. Oh, so were there other siblings in the house? Uh, when I turned 13, I had a cousin who moved in with us who was 10. And so he grew up like a brother to me.

Yeah. And so I think of him as a brother. And so he moved in, yeah, when he was 10, I was 13. And so he moved in, yeah, when he was 10, I was 13. But you had already had at least 10 years-ish of being the solo attendant at this quiet church you lived in. Yes, yes. Library church. where's that were they just strict were your folks just strict your mom and your stepdad and just kind of you know valued a quiet calm environment i think they were pretty strict and i don't know if like they weren't necessarily quiet i think it was kind of like you know uh i got the sense that children should be seen, not heard. Yeah.

And I think the way that I carried myself in public as well as in the house, it was, there was a sort of strict rules about what I should do and shouldn't do. Yeah. So, yeah, so they were definitely pretty strict. And I remember kids would say, like, you know, they would always want me to come sleep over at their place. They weren't as excited to come sleep over at my house. Yeah, yeah.

Has that, like, was there points of rebellion in your teen years? Like, did you start to get tired of having to be the. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's. Yeah, I think as I got older, it turned into not feeling, you know, not feeling like I wanted to be that and trying to find ways to rebel. And then I think ultimately, it turned into a thing where, uh, we just kind of had to go our separate ways and, uh, it just became better not to communicate, um, with, uh, with my folks so uh for just for i think at least you know mental health so yeah so we so i think my my

rebellious face and i think kind of hit turned into an estrangement yeah yeah and is it did that continue throughout your adult years yeah that's uh that's continued still oh that's rough i'm sorry about that oh thank you i mean yeah it's it's a strange thing but i think you know there are i've talked about it a little bit publicly and i've i've tried not to talk about it too much only because i've chosen a life in a public space, but they haven't. And so I've tried to be as respectful of that as I can, but I've talked about it a little bit. And I think ultimately, you know, there are some relationships in your life and some of them can be family relationships that aren't the healthiest. family relationships that aren't the healthiest. And, you know, you, there is a, uh, you know, and trying to bridge that or figure out how to make that work. Sometimes it means walking away from it. And, uh, you know, and that's something that I, it took a while to get to. Um, and i feel uh that it is the best decision for me and uh has been the healthiest thing for me

and i hope that it has provided them some uh uh you know something as well yeah and today has there ever been any like attempts at reproach mall on either side? Like, you know. From their side, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And not always in the healthiest of ways. Yeah.

So that only kind of like. Confirms your choices. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have, I'm estranged from my dad too uh oh i'm sorry for yeah i thank you i mean you know we're we're in the same boat but i everything you're saying is exactly the same it's like yep it's sad and yep it's a loss and yep it's it's too bad and it's regret, regrettable, but, uh, yep. It's for the best. Like just, that's just, yeah.

You know, it's like when you, I swear that one of the biggest parts of being a grownup is accepting that things can be many things all at once, you know, like, you know, a person can be your deepest love and a wonderful uh caring person who is an absolute cancer in your life you know i mean for different reasons just it's you know it's a it's a long life and there's lots of stuff that happens and you just got to kind of keep moving forward as healthfully as you can. Yeah. And I think what's important is checking in with yourself about those things and seeing those things and those relationships and figuring out what it is

that you need and being okay with the idea that like, okay, it may not be the, it may not fit the mold of what society says a relationship should look like, or, you know, what adulthood should be or whatever. Uh,

and that's fine. There is no, there is no definition for it there is no one box that we all fit in and if we tried it would break all of us yeah uh and so it is really about being okay with recognizing well, this is what I need to be a healthy and happy person and be a healthy, happy person, not just for myself, but for other people in my life. And like you said, if a person in your life is toxic and is a cancer and makes you not just feel bad but makes you a worse version of yourself to other people who need you yeah and who aren't involved in that scenario at all you know exactly projecting onto somebody else yeah because in you know because cancer is spread and so that

that toxic relationship that is impacting you it is going to filter out into the other relationships that you have and then you are not being the best version of yourself that you can be for those other people in your life and so i think it's it's recognizing that like oh when you do these things think it's recognizing that like, oh, when you do these things, sometimes it's like, oh, this feels selfish or this feels like I'm not being a model person, but it's also recognizing, oh wait, but this is what I need to do

to be the healthiest version of myself. I can be not just for myself, but for other people too. And for that person, I may be enabling behavior that is only encouraging that toxicity from them and not causing them to do the work, whether they choose to do it or not is up to them, but to choose to do it, to be a better person, not for you, but for other people in their lives. I could not agree more.

And I relate so strongly to that because like something that I've said to people in my life is like, I, I can only carry my own baggage. Like you want me to carry your baggage too like i have to like while i'm serving my own neuroses and and like you know like the crying child that wants wants wants like in me like i'm serving that guy now i gotta hear your inside baby crying too and follow that like no we all that's that's you know we carry our own baggage and and to to expect otherwise. I mean, it happened, you know, when you especially when you're like in a any kind of close relationship, there's like a little bit of like, hey, is it OK if I misbehave in this way and you're going to be OK with it? Yeah, OK, then. And we'll do that for each other.

You know, like there's a little there's always a little bit of sickness, you know, just be okay with it. Yeah, okay. And we'll do that for each other. You know, like there's a little, there's always a little bit of sickness, you know, just to keep it spicy. It's just a little Zatarain. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, if you're, but really, truly, if it's like, no, no, not only do you have to worry about your neuroses

and your fears and insecurities, you have to worry about mine too. You have to adjust your day to mine too. Like that's, that to me, and I mean, I'm 54, it took me a long time, but like, no, that's a no-no. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to like, not just not going to do that. So high school, Dallas, how's that for you? Uh, it was, It was an interesting experience. I went to an all-boys Catholic high school in Dallas that was also an art museum. Wow.

Yeah. Wow. So we were kind of always surrounded by art. And beauty. That's amazing. That's wonderful. Yeah. When you say beauty beauty i assume you mean

the catholic priests because i said exactly and then you said beauty yeah well i said no i mean why was one of the priests named art is that what you're talking about yes father art and father beauty yeah yeah no but i mean it must have been a pretty place to go to school and had kind of like a feeling of, at least an aesthetic, you know, a better aesthetic than the cinder block lime green box I went to. No, it was really cool in that regard because you kind of took for granted what was around you. There would be paintings in classrooms and sculptures that you just, you just sort of took for granted that not every space had this kind of like

artwork around. And also though, um and also though it is a strange thing where you're kind of like every space could do this and this isn't like like you could put art places there's a really there's a high school here in brooklyn uh called uh boys and girls high school that uh Boys and Girls High School, that as you enter the building, they have these sculptures and there's a painting, a mural on the wall. And it's like, oh, yeah, those things really do. They do create a sense of magic in a space where it might not always feel magical as you're trying to kind of learn fractions. you're trying to kind of learn uh fractions yeah no it's like whenever you go to like having you know on vacation to europe you know that's one of the you know you go and you look at old churches and and and you do get the feeling of like oh wow when the when the the street was knee-deep

in human shit i bet this place was really really even more attractive and magical than it feels now you know because yeah it just it's like it's so pretty in here yeah you know and and it makes you i it's it's also there's a hopefulness to it like there's beauty like a value beauty you know yeah well because it's it was a strange it's a strange thing because it still looked like a school it's still you know? Yeah. Well, cause it's, it was a strange, it's a strange thing. Cause it still looked like a school. It's still, you know,

you still had lockers and you still have that ratty carpet. Yeah. Priests. And priests. Yeah. Priests. And, and so,

but there was like, yeah, there were these sculptures that kind of drew your eye away from these lockers that are decades old and this carpet that has stains all on it. And it was like, oh, yeah, like this sculpture is really cool. And it made, yeah, it made going there, it made going there interesting. Yeah, it made going there interesting and I think put a sense of like art appreciation into you in a way that you didn't really like. It just kind of was like under the surface. You didn't realize that you were being indoctrinated in these ways.

Yeah, that you're being turned Catholic. Yeah. What kind of stuff were you? Were you an athlete? Were you a good student? I like to think I was athletic. I was not an athlete. I was on the track team,

but I never went to track practice. I was so bad at going to track practice i was so i was so bad at going to track practice that uh typically you needed to go to practice five days that week every day to run in a meet that weekend i was so uncommitted that they told me if you just show up three times a week you can run in a meet which may may have spoken to some level of talent that i had that i didn't realize yeah that they were willing to make that kind of exception for me but even at that point just showing up three times a week still couldn't do it was just terrible yeah yeah yeah just not committed and was kind of like kind of a burnout without actually like smoking anything was just kind of like apathetic to it and so and so i did that but then i also i enjoyed drawing

and i enjoyed art classes and uh you you know, I think in another world, if I felt like I could have done it, I might have focused on that in a way that I would have maybe said like, oh, I should go to art school. But I didn't think that was something that was available to me. What were you doing when you weren't going to track? Was there something, you know, like, or was it just you didn't like it it just felt some of it was i didn't like it some of it i by that point in high school i had i had started to drive and i had a i had like a girlfriend in high school that I could go hang out at her house or go hang out at her school.

Or when I wasn't in a relationship, it was because it was an all boys school. I'd go hang out at the all girls school or there was a pizza parlor across the street from the high school that had an arcade. And you'd go there and fill your belly with mozzarella sticks. And so I think there was an element of it, you know, going back to like living in a, in a strict house. When I got home, I wasn't leaving the house again until it was time to go to school. Yeah.

And so there was this element of having an extracurricular that just bought me time i see to not be at home where i could go you know i could just go hang out with friends and nothing i was doing was untoward it was just like oh yeah i just i know that i can't come home like drop my bags off and then go like oh yeah i'm gonna go out and go to my girlfriend's house yeah or like go to a movie or something like that and so it was just like okay yeah this is when i get to do it if i want to go play sometimes i'd skip track practice and i would just go to the gym and play basketball and so i was still being athletic yeah yeah like it was like oh no if i just took this outside i'd actually be doing something towards earning a letterman's jacket right i never got well you

should have joined the alibi team because that's really what you were looking for is an alibi. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm running track, Mom. Yeah. I'm not filling up on, you know, that Dallas delicacy mozzarella sticks. It is what we are known for, Mom. Dallas is – how is – do you like being from Dallas? I mean, do you consider yourself from Dallas?

I consider myself from Dallas, but I never really thought of it as home. Yeah, it's a weird town. It is. It's I I feel like New York always felt like home to me, even when I even when I traveled just in the summertime. even when I traveled just in the summertime. And you mentioned Cleveland, but Cleveland actually felt more like a space because I had a childhood friend who moved to Cleveland. And so in my summers, I would go spend part of my summer with my grandmother in New York

and then part of it with my friend Brian in Cleveland. Oh, wow. And then part with my aunts in Philadelphia. And I felt much more connected to those spaces than I did to Dallas. And those people, too. I mean, it probably begins with the people, and then it just kind of spreads to the location, I would guess. Yeah, but some of it is the place.

Like, again, Cedar Point is an amazing park. They would have chili dogs there. You could get sick off chili dogs and then go ride a roller coaster. Yeah, try that in Dallas. Oh, they have six flags over Texas. Don't they still have that? They do, but I feel like as a kid, the roller coasters in Cleveland seemed like much more impressive because there was one in Cleveland that I can't remember the name of it. But it was like two roller coasters that is called the Gemini. And it was two. Oh, because of the twins. Yeah.

Yeah. And they would sort of race one another. And so you would go, and, like, you would go, like, I would go with my friend, and it would be, like, my friend Brian and his brother and, you know, whatever other friends they had, and you kind of split off, and you'd say, okay, well, we'll ride this roller coaster,

and we'll ride this one, and then you'd try to, like like find seats in cars that were like parallel and you can be like all right we're gonna win and then uh inevitably you know everyone loses um because it's just it's just early onset whiplash that you're getting that's right that's right it's uh have you ridden a roller coaster as an adult? Yes. But it's, yeah, the G4. Are you going to say the G4 is excruciating as an adult compared to as a child?

Yeah. Yeah. I found that from having actual children going to a playground and then swinging on swings have you swung on swings in the last couple of decades i feel like i have and yeah i my equilibrium was it's it's awful you just feel your gut sloshing around like you know it's i don't know as a kid i loved it you know i could do it for hours and now when i go with my kids like if you really get a good swing on it just feels like oh fuck oh god yeah no i got i remember doing it a few years back and i got incredibly dizzy yeah and i yeah i felt nauseous and it was not uh it was not a good thing and i haven't been on a roller coaster probably, it's probably been 15, 20 years at this point. Yeah.

And I feel like the last time I went, I was in my 20s. And the next day, my neck hurt. That's old 20s. Yeah. No, I lived hard. Yeah, yeah. I got in a lot of car wrecks. Where was college?

I went to college at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Nice. That's a pretty place, too. It is a pretty place. It is a place. You've been there? I have been there. Yeah.

What made you pick it? place. What made you there? I have been there. What made you pick it? I wanted to get out of the house. And I really wanted to go to school in New York. I wanted to go to Syracuse and North Carolina. My mother and I went on like a little visit of colleges. And she, she believed I could get into Duke. I did not have the grades, uh, or the ability. Um, and while we were in North Carolina, though, we looked at other schools in North Carolina and I actually really wanted to go to North Carolina state, but then saw the campus at North Carolina and thought it was a beautiful campus. And that's honestly what like sold me. Yeah. And I think my mother's originally from North Carolina.

That's where our family, her side of the family is from. And so I think there was something that was kind of, I think she liked the idea of me being in North Carolina, close to relatives and stuff. So, yeah, but it is, it's a, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful campus. The first time, I don't know if you remember this, but the first time you and I met was at North Carolina when I was in school. I do not remember that. Actually, was that the first time we met? Yes. No, actually, no, it was not the first time we met.

We met before that because I was very briefly an intern at late night. I was an intern at SNL while I was in college and I had dropped out of school to intern at SNL. And during the dark weeks, I had nothing to do. So I would go over to late night and help out for like a week at a time and then like disappear for weeks. Yeah, yeah. The exploitation of free student labor it's not only like dark weeks well that doesn't mean you get off too you get over here and work on this other comedy comedy you know work ship i loved it though but i but we but so we had briefly met when i interned and then you came to uh carolina to to uh speak and there was a thing that they would do the the like the student organizing

committee whenever there was a speaker coming they would take the speaker out to dinner and they took you out to dinner and a friend, a good friend of mine had figured out a scam that you could pull was if you went to the student organization and said, hey, I would really love to meet this person. Could I join the dinner? They would say yes, and you would get to take part of a free dinner with this person. And so Andy Richter was coming to North Carolina and I, using my friend's technique, finagled my way into the dinner and wound up sitting next to you and chatting with you. And you were very gracious and very nice to me. And there was an aspect of it that i think uh only having now gone through the experience of having performed at colleges where they take you out to dinner uh there was an element of it

that i i feel like uh you and i were able to kind of have a conversation about like New York things and like show things without it being like, what's it like to me, Heather Graham? Yeah. Yeah. Have you met public enemy? And so I think there,

so you, so I, I, I don't know if I provided you some relief, but I felt like, I felt like at some point you had gotten sick of people asking you those random questions. And then you and I just talked a little bit about the internship. Because when I interned, it was when the NBC fire had happened.

Oh, right. And so we wound up chatting about like how crazy that fire was. Were you working for us or were you with SNL when the fire happened? I was with you all. Oh, OK. So you came out and did our outside show with us then? Yeah, there was actually there was There was, I feel like maybe we talked about it on one of the times I did Conan. You all actually got some footage because I'm in one of the shots. Like when it was in front of the ice rink, was like a a boom shot where i happened to be one of the people that was standing as like security to keep right right random the riffraff out yeah yeah from just like rushing you all and samuel l jackson yeah who who gave me a foot rub, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, for people that don't know, there was, and I mean, this would have been what, like 94, 95? This was, I think, 95, 96. Yeah. There was like an electrical fire in Rockefeller Center that didn't burn anything, but just because Rockefeller Center is basically like a huge AV system. And there are columns in that building that are just full of cables, you know, running from edit rooms to studios, you know, back and forth, you know, to satellite feeds. And just in one of those areas where all these wires were, there was a fire. So we had to evacuate the building and we you know had to scramble and we did a show out in front of the uh ice skating rink and samuel l jackson was the guest who's probably like the perfect guest to have on a just roll with it kind of show yeah um but it was really fun and i always it all whenever uh like i always felt our

show and still to this day is better it's at its best when it gets to be about something other than itself and so this was about i mean it's still kind of about itself because it's its circumstances but it's not just like a wednesday you know and like it was it was it's the reason that the road shows are always so good because you get to go somewhere and it's about something other than just we're these guys putting on a talk show. So, yeah, I remember it was funny because in the immediate moment when it happened, there was all this talk of we're gonna go to fort lee new jersey yeah there was a studio there yeah yeah they put me in a van and i'm driving i'm circling a van around the block for hours until they decide like okay we're not gonna go to fort lee and

oh that's and i remember the ice rink and then my favorite one that you all did was you took over the Today Show studio. Yeah. And you wore Bryant Gumbel vests. Yes. do so well is that like playing with the space that you're in and like taking full advantage of wherever you are and just having fun with it and so it was that like okay we're gonna go to today's show set but we're not just gonna do our show as usual what if our show goes through the filter of the today show yeah what if we both wear matching sweater vests yeah you know and and drink with two hands out of warm mugs you know yeah and it was it was amazing it's it's that thing of like it uh it was such a fun thing and it was to me what the magic of late night that was what i wanted that was what

i i i hoped for um yeah well i have i'm i'm it's nice to hear you say all that and i wish i could remember better about like you know the years of me touring um colleges which just kind of happened as like kind of a side gig a way to make some extra money is i got like kind of with a speaker's agent then i right he's like you could do college dates and i was like well what the hell am i going to talk about so i just basically i i it eventually just devolved into almost an entire session of q a because that's was the fun you know um but i showed clips of the show and stuff. And, and I hope, I hope that the Chapel Hill wasn't the one. Cause I remember there was one, one and I don't think it was there.

I think it was somewhere in Pennsylvania. I went and I was just, I don't know what was going on. It was like, cause I, you know, I do these things on the weekend after sometimes, you know, in those days the show I would have to edit my own bits. So there'd be some days where I was, you know, editing till three o'clock in the morning and then coming back and finishing the edit and then putting it on the show, but just exhausted. And I went to one college date and they said, you know,

we're having dinner with you, which like, that wasn't like a guaranteed thing, but they had a, they had a dinner with students and I was like, you know, we're having dinner with you, which like that wasn't like a guaranteed thing. They had a dinner with students and I was like, you know what? I'm really tired. I'm really run down. I got to do a show in four hours. I'm going to skip the dinner. And like a student advisor type person, not a student,

but like somebody that was like an advisor called me crying, like saying, there are kids here waiting to meet you. And I was like, oh, here I come. You know, I know, you know, I hope it wasn't that night. So, no, I don't think it was. Yeah. I mean, the one thing that I remember was at one point you looked me dead in the eyes and you said i will never ever forget this moment and then you kissed me on the forehead and you flew away

can't you tell my loves are growing so how does how do you start doing comedy is this during college do you get this sort of. Yeah. I, I mean, I knew, I knew when I was a kid that I, I loved, I loved comedy. And I,

I had this thought like, Oh, I would love to do comedy, but I didn't know how to approach that in Dallas. And again, growing up in the house I did, I didn't think that like comedy was a career that I could really go down. It kind of became this little secret that I held on to of like, Oh yeah,

I really love to like be on SNL one day. And I remember when I was in high school, right as I was graduating, my family had put me in this internship program where you would go to this all-day conference and take a test. And then based on the test answers, they would try to find you an internship in the field that this test said you would be best suited for and so i took the test and i kid you not the answer one of the answers that came back and what was the top answer in my mind was stuntman and i was so thrilled i was so thrilled because i was like this test gets me it sees me it knows that i'm not uh you know accountant material right and the sorting hat doth chose me and i should i should be doing car rollovers that's what i should be doing that said the internship program had nothing for me so they threw me out

oh that's hilarious stuntman why was that even fucking on there i i don't know but i'm grateful i'm grateful that somehow that test they had tested millions of children and somehow that there was one uh but yeah they they that said that you should you should endanger yourself physically for someone who looks similar to you yes yeah who is more valuable yeah yeah absolutely take a fall for someone kind of like you yeah yeah should cornell west ever start an action movie you young man would be the one to to jump out of a burning building that is not a growth industry, though. Cornel West's Stuntman. I don't think that's going to happen.

Well, that's why I made the shift over. I was like, yeah, he's smart. And I was like, he put out a rap album, but he's not going into the action hero category. And if he does, he'll do his own, just knowing him. Yeah, no, that's true. it's authenticity that's right that's his brand um but yeah when i when i got to college i started thinking about how to do it and uh i got involved with like uh there there was like a comedy sports on uh at my school and i sort of tried it i didn't really take to it but uh there was a guy from there who was doing stand-up around chapel hill

and the raleigh durham uh area and so he kind of encouraged me to go to a couple stand-up things. So I started doing that. And then from there, kind of got the courage from that to get an internship at SNL, which I just got from writing letters to the SNL. And I just, back then it wasn't like I knew how to apply from my college. They didn't have an inroad. I just kind of wrote them some letters and said, hey, this is what I want to do.

this is what I want to do. And once I got that internship and then subsequently also getting to spend some time at late night as well in those dark weeks, that it was that experience that let me know that this was possible. Yeah. That being around all of these people and seeing this creativity, but also seeing that I had found a way to get into this world that I'd only seen on television that, that then showed me it was possible. And after that,

it was kind of like, okay, I have to be more vocal that this is what I want to do. And I really like set my sights on this. Yeah, it's a fun atmosphere. It's definitely like, and those years of the Conan show too were particularly, well, just, you know, and you got to see kind of the the both sides because there were two comedy shows in that building and you were got to work on both of them and they both were kind of

uh if i those are sort of like the sandler years right when you were there no i got was he after or before i mean it was he was before so that was will ferrell had just joined okay jim brewer was kind of yeah he was kind of the big star of that moment on the show that was like goat boy yeah and joe pesci and so it was him and then like will Ferrell and Sherry Oteri were doing the cheerleaders. Yeah. Tracy Morgan, it was his first year. Norm MacDonald was doing Update. Colin Quinn and Molly Shannon were there. And Colin was a huge advocate for me. Oh, great.

a huge advocate for me. Uh, and was someone who, even after I left the internship and went back to college, I, uh, at one point SNL was looking for writers and Colin who had read sketches of mine and like helped me like learn how to write sketches. Uh, and helped me learn how to write sketches, he suggested my name two years later

to interview for a writing job. And I got flown out to New York and interviewed, didn't get the job. But yeah, it was a magical time to be there and to experience all that stuff and that building too working in that building getting to have a reason to get to go to that building every day was magical yeah i as much as i like it's funny because i for so long in my career i was like oh i want to work on snl and i want to do weekend update. That's the thing I want to do.

I want to host weekend update. And what's interesting is I, you know, I wanted to do that in whatever, 96, 98. I was like kind of like viewing myself as a failure, because I thought I would graduate college, or I didn't even think I would graduate college, I thought I would do this internship, and then never go back to school, and just stay at SNL forever. And I, and then almost a decade later, I wound up on a daily show, which didn't exist at the time but the thing that i wanted to do that sort of weekend update like thing now i'm doing a longer version of it yeah with the daily show and so it's but as much as and as much as i enjoyed my experience of the daily show and learned so much there is something that was very

different about going to that building versus the magic of rockefeller center yeah yeah yeah i think as like as amazing as the daily show was i a part of me always wished it was rockefeller it was 30 rock i i still to this day if they were like hey would you want to open a a watch shop you're just going to fix watches and we'll live stream it i i but you're going to work at a rockefeller center a part of me would be like yeah sure i'd do that yeah yeah yeah just to work in that building absolutely and especially those days of that building because it was just really vital. Like there was still like a regular old coffee shop in the lobby, you know?

And it wasn't all like J Cruz and, and chain stores. It was like, there were weird, it was a little, you know, you could go down to the basement, you get your dry cleaning done,

get a key made, you know, you know, pick up something for dinner and, you know, uh, you know, pick up something for dinner and, you know, get pantyhose, you know, if that's, I don't know why that came to mind. I never was buying pantyhose, but you know, it's okay if you're buying pantyhose. Well, by that age, by that time, I was no longer, uh, committing robberies.

So I didn't need the pantyhose um yeah but sometimes you know you just sometimes though maybe you like to put them on and just sit on the couch and crack open a beer right like feel that same that's true like saying you know what you felt in those the afterglow yeah of a of a mugging or just put it on to go peeping they They're good for peeping. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Very good for peeping. No, it was just,

it was just such a, it was a great time. It was just, always, always will. And I also too, I just have always going to be proud to have worked on that show because that show just meant a lot to people,

to young people that were serious about comedy and that was you know and there were shows that did that for me and to have been on one of those is uh very nice it's a good thing it is um so what was your first like writing gig where did you because you were doing stand-up uh and then what was your first writing gig? So I graduated college and moved out to L.A. And then I wound up after a few years, I got a job on King of the Hill and I got hired as a writer on King of the Hill and worked there for four seasons. Wow. Season seven to ten. Yeah.

And that was in L.A.? Were you already in L.A. at the time? Yeah. So once I graduated college, I wanted to go back to New York, but I didn't think there would be jobs. I remember I got offered a job to be the receptionist at SNL,

and I thought, well, no one goes from receptionist to cast member yeah um and i didn't think that that was possible there is somebody who has gone from like receptionist to writer uh and uh is like the one uh but i didn't i didn't have that that confidence in myself so i uh so yeah so i i was like oh there's more opportunity in la and yeah i had a friend out there so i went to i went out there and then yeah i'd been out there for about three three or four years and then got hired as a writer on king of the hill cool yeah and now you know four seasons that you know was that till the end till the show ended no i left uh i enjoyed the job but it was also one of those things where i knew that i wanted to do more than just write. And the longer I was in the job, the harder it was going to be to pursue other opportunities

because on the one hand, it felt like my agent was only viewing me as a TV writer. And so when other opportunities would come around, I'd be like, Oh, Hey, you know, maybe we could try to see if I could go out for this.

And he would be reluctant to pursue those things. And, and so I think for me, it was, I wound up leaving the show feeling like, OK, if I want to really pursue like, you know, being a comedian and doing stuff on camera as well, I maybe have to sort of take the security blanket and and burn it up and just go out there and just try. And so it was a little bit of like blowing everything up and starting all over. Now,

and you are not afraid to do that because you get, well, I mean, you got on the, I mean, the, the sort of like most notable one that I think people still talk about is you were on the

daily show and you quit the daily show. Yeah. You had a, I mean, people can Google it. People, he had a, you had a conflict with,

with John Stewart about, he did a Herman Cain imitation that you felt was. I felt it was offensive. Yeah. And I had brought it up to my bosses and they heard me and agreed with me. He hadn't done it on the air yet. He was planning to do it. And I brought it up to my bosses and they said that they would talk to him and then he still wanted to do it. felt as though I was calling him racist when what I was saying was that this was insensitive.

And I think he kind of went into that defensive posture that many people who may not be that comfortable talking about race get into. talking about race get into. And it then exploded into something that, to me, was, you know, from a power dynamic standpoint, I thought the man had fired me and he was, you know, screaming at me. And it was a very uncomfortable situation. And one that marked my experience there. But also, as a full experience of the show, you know, it wasn't the first or only experience that I had in that show where I felt like people weren't being as sensitive to issues of race. And it wasn't the first time that I'd experienced something where I felt offended on because this was something that was racially insensitive.

And so I think when I was a continuation of a pattern. Yeah. Yeah. And this was definitely, you know, a thing the way it exploded. You know, I think it was one of those things where it's like, OK, you've quietly experienced microaggressions and some larger than microaggressions. And, you know, you bring something up and it then was, you know, I think the response was one that was, to me, beyond the pale of what you would hope in a professional situation or in any situation, really. Right. And so I think but it was it was something that I think for me crystallized. Oh, yeah. My experience here is not one that feels has felt particularly great or one where I felt particularly seen or respected throughout my experience here. Yeah. Yeah.

So it wasn't just that one thing. It was kind of a culmination. Yeah, I mean, I think that experience cemented for me that I didn't, everything I had been feeling up to that point. And then after that, I actually had agreed to stay one more year and there was some kind of shitty contract stuff that happened in my last year that, uh, I just like people were like,

well, just, just stick around for this one last year and just do this, but get out of here. And, but yeah, the last year was honestly, like I probably should have left after the blow up. The blow up happened as I was going into a contract negotiation. Oh boy.

And then the contract negotiation was one that yeah, just kind of like became a thing where I it really cemented for me that like okay, I don't feel welcome here.

Yeah. I had been a writer and a correspondent on the show for three seasons. And in my final year there, or three and a half seasons, I guess, and in my final year, they did not want to pay me to be a writer. me to be a writer and so i think in a very passive way yes they were saying bye hey we want you to leave yeah and i you know at the i think at the urging of people in my in my life but also out of my own sort of naive stubbornness was like, well, fine, I'll just stay and I'll collect a year of this check as just on air, despite the fact that, yeah, you are not so subtly saying we don't want you here.

Yeah. Yeah. They usually they'll give you a reason to, you know, to let you know, like, bye. Like without saying bye. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a weird thing because it feels almost worse than just saying like bye. Because it's kind of like, OK, well, now I'm here for a year. Yeah. And I'm just a ghost in this space.

Yeah, that's rough. I'm just a ghost in this space. Yeah, that's rough. And not like, I was already struggling with this idea that I didn't feel like I was appreciated. And you've just told me, like, from a business affairs standpoint. We don't appreciate you. We don't appreciate you. Thank you.

Well, now you took that because, you know, and I mean, and I can I think. Like I I. I hear about that scenario. I wasn't aware of the scenario at the time, but it's like, oh, yeah, I see all that. Like I like that all makes sense to me. And especially like in those days, too, I think there has been a difference just in terms of. difference just in terms of, and I think it's been a huge thing has been social media has taken comfortable white men and let them be themselves out in the world. And people go like, Hey, wait, you shouldn't do, you know, like, I don't like you saying that. And that's offensive to me. Or,

you know, like there are people who are hurt by that. Or like there's an issue. There's a part of this that's just like not great about the way you are. And it has gotten better. Like, you know, like there's, you know, like within those. And I don't mean in the world. I don't, you know, I mean, who am I to say about that? But certainly within the rooms where it's predominantly white men writing comedy it's gotten a lot better it's got you know a there's

more women and people of color in those rooms now yeah because people finally started to take it seriously and know like you know like well that's just tokenism well And no, like, you know, like, well, that's just tokenism. Well, if you want to look at it that way, sure. But it's also like, how do you correct something without doing the thing that would make the correction? Like, how do you have diversity? Like, because I think there's still plenty of people like, oh, yes, diversity is great. But I think we should just lay back and let it happen. Like, no diversity happens by hiring a diverse, a diverse staff, you know? Well, and that's, and I feel like that's what's so it's, it goes beyond it too. And I think that's the thing. Like, you know,

I was the first black writer the show had thing. Like, you know, I was the first black writer the show had hired. I, you know, I was the first person of color as a writer the show had hired. And, you know, John has spoken about it this past summer while he was on a press tour. He talked about he didn't take diversity seriously. Yeah. The thing he's, the thing he's saying in that is he didn't take me seriously. Yeah.

And that's really the shitty kind of subtext of what he's saying, but it's true. And it wasn't, I think for so many shows and especially at that time, just putting a person in the room was enough. Yeah. But what they weren't doing was trying to engage in that person's worldview. Right. brings to the room other than simply a defense when a blog says your entire writing staff is just white guys yeah yeah and so i think there is an element of it that now it's it seems as though the tides are shifting what you know selfishly

there are a lot of us that got caught up in the chum uh uh you know and became sort of the chum of that that like there is no like it didn't provide i'm grateful for what it's provided for rooms today. It still was the situation where, as I said, I'm the person then who, you know, basically was passive aggressively pushed out of a place where I wonder if I had been in that space. And it's something I still wonder to this day, if I had been in that space and truly felt valued and had been actually valued, I wonder if I would have left when I did. I wonder if I would have stayed longer. I wonder where my career would be if I had stayed another two years, another three years, what path it would have put me on. and I see an aspect of my experience that is one where it hopefully made situations better for the people who came after me. time i don't want to simply be a footnote in the history of like don't do this like i still want to be in a position where uh i can work as opposed to just an example in an hr report of like don't scream at your employees uh when they bring up how you're making them uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah.

And so I think there's that part of it, too, that is like, okay, yeah, for those, and not just for myself, but I feel like there are a lot of people who experienced the more token-y aspect of it, you want to say for those folks, okay, well that experience one, we never want you to go through that again, but how do we repair the damage that you experienced? Because I think there are probably a lot of people who experienced things,

whether it was like me or similar things that left jobs and just didn't work again or left the business or became very selective about the types of work they were going to do which may limit the type of work they can do yeah so i think it's there is there's an aspect of it where you hope that like the that as we are being a better you know trying to push towards inclusion that some of that is also okay those voices who were the ones that either got silenced or were the examples of these things, how do we bring those voices into the rooms as well so that they can also be teaching aids, but also that they can be beyond teaching aids.

They can go back to doing the thing they want to do. If that's writing, if that's performing, if that's directing, whatever those things are. You took what you did on The Daily Show. And is that was that sort of the kind of the area in kind of a topicality, a topical kind of humor? Is that what you were sort of looking for? Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny because in my first year, we did an election special,

and I did a bit from Stephen's studio, from the Colbert Report. And I remember going into that building and walking around his offices and then going on to his set and thinking like wow this is amazing this space is great if steven ever left i would love to do some version of like what steven's doing but maybe do the kind of like the the sort of arch cornell west version yes yes of what steven is doing as o'reilly and that was and so for me there was always an element i think when i was working on the show that i was like oh that that feels like

a space that like i would love to i would love to go and do that. And then when I left The Daily Show, I still wanted to work in late night and work in some kind of a topical late night show space. And so, yeah, I kind of spent a little time trying to figure out, okay, what does that look like? What is my version of that look like? And then ultimately that became Problem Areas on HBO. And you got you had two seasons, two seasons.

Yeah. And how was that experience? I mean, making that show, was it a happy one? I mean, did you. It was. Were you finally like, finally, it's my name up there? There was, there was an aspect of feeling like, finally, because I definitely felt like when I left The Daily Show, I think even when I left The Daily Show, I thought like, okay, people have seen what I've done. Like, there's going to be a market for me.

And I watched, like, you know, Oliver had gotten last week tonight. Sam B. got full frontal. And I was like, OK, if I take an idea to market, like, somebody is going to be interested. And I went around and did the couch and water tour of going different places. And people were like, no, no, thank you. And, uh, and so I sat, so I felt like I was kind of sitting on the sidelines for a few years there. And then, uh, when I presented the idea to HBO for problem areas, when they were into it, there was this part of me that was like oh finally like okay yeah here's

here's uh here's this thing and and uh and you know and i i think even when i think about you know larry larry wilmore got the nightly show and as i was saying like when i first got on the daily show i thought like it'd be amazing to have have like Colbert studio and do a show out of there. And then, so I saw like, Oh, okay. You know,

Oh, Larry's doing that. And then Sam's got a show and Oliver's got a show. And so I really felt like for a while I was just kind of like sitting and, and then, yeah, there was this kind of like finally moment with HBO. And then when it came time to make the show, it was.

On the one hand, like I was so excited by this opportunity. And on the other hand, I was overwhelmed at the responsibility of it all and just how much it took to make a show but specifically to make a show like that if i were to do it again from a scheduling standpoint we were rushing and we were basically making a 200-minute documentary in a 10-episode show. Yeah. And we started working on that documentary fall with the idea that it would be done by spring and that is a crazy schedule for a documentary for a documentary and so to go to 10 different cities and to try especially when you're talking to you know the first season we focused know, the first season we focused on policing, the second season we focused on public education.

Those are both worlds where access is always like very like restricted. Yeah. And they're very skittish. Cops are for people who wear body cameras and talk about like transparency. They are the scaredest of scaredy cats when it comes to like, oh, yeah, come look behind the curtain. where we had one piece where we landed in the city having secured agreements to meet with cops and do all these things for the cops to then say we don't want to meet with you and then they would tell some of the other people we were meeting with not to talk to us and it was like and we only had in the first season we had two days to shoot every piece and so we're just like flying trying to get these pieces trying to put them together at a breakneck

pace and so i think it was i feel like from a scheduling standpoint it was an incredibly ambitious thing to try to do um and i'm truly grateful and also i have learned so much from everyone who worked on the show uh because we did ask a lot of them and so there was an aspect of it that was like, I was surprised we got right. I saw things that I was like, yeah, it was such a learning experience. And I'm very grateful for it. And I feel like it was not exactly the show I wanted it to be. It was not exactly the show I wanted it to be, but there were a lot of things I was proud that we that we did. Yeah, no, it's I mean, it's.

It's you know, it was a very well-made show, and I and you know, and I haven't seen all of them, but the ones that I have seen, I was always having done not so much topical kind of remote pieces but definitely remote pieces like i had to learn i got on the conan show and they're like okay now take a camera to the miss america pageant and make comedy for tv like they don't teach you that in improv class you know no um so uh but it was it was a very very ambitious show with like an you know with its heart and head in a very wonderful place but holy fuck it was an uphill climb you know just you set yourself a you set yourself a a task a really difficult task. And I wonder, like, kind of branching into the next question of like, where do you go from here? And how does that inform where you go after that? You know, because it's been a couple of years still, but you know, but I, but it's the, you know, I imagine you kind of want to work in that same vein. Yeah.

I imagine you kind of want to work in that same vein. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, I would love to. And I think, you know, it's that thing of, like, I didn't expect the show to end after two seasons. I kind of thought, like, oh, this is the thing I'll do forever. And, you know, there were the elements of it where, when we would do the kind of like top of show stuff that felt like the fun, silly stuff where we got to, you know, where I think about like the late night that I wanted.

Yeah. That I saw, you know, places like Late Night and SNL. It was like, oh, yeah, here we are. We're making dumb props and we've got a robot and we're doing these silly things. And it was like, oh, I got that. And then I got these sort of more heady, serious things that still had room for comedy. And so I, yeah, it felt like in that way it was this like perfect marriage of the, the types of things I was interested in. And yeah, I think for me,

I would like to continue down this road. The ambition of what I was doing with that show and what we were doing, I think to me, part of that ambitious idea was like, this is the thing in my head I thought I was going to do for a decade. So it was like, well, I got to throw everything, I got to put it all on the table because I don't want to do anything else. And also, I don't know if want to do anything else. And, uh, and also, I don't know if I'll do anything else. I don't know if, you know, nothing was promised. And I think, I think on some level, because I felt like I had sat on the sidelines for a while, I think I felt a certain, I think I felt a certain both like gratitude but also pressure

that this has to be I have to put it all out here because I don't know when or if I'll get this again and yeah I think going forward I think I always am going to want to try to be ambitious but also i think it's

not letting that sense of like desperate gratitude yeah overwhelm in a way that i I could make something uncomfortable either for me or for anyone else who's working in the in in the space. Something compromised. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I definitely felt like I even to make the show, I made a fair bit of compromises. I made a fair bit of compromises and there were things where I was like, okay, yeah, I need to do these things just to, just to get this thing on the air because it, I like,

I'm just so grateful. And I didn't see that. Like, I didn't see myself as also that I was a value add to the network i saw it as like oh yeah they're like they're doing me the favor by yeah having me on but also not seeing like all right but i'm bringing something to them too like yeah it's difficult to strike that balance if you're not a maniac you know it's, it's just because you know how rare opportunities are. You know what a seller's market, you know, entertainment business is in terms of like positions.

Like for every position, there's a million people wanting in there. So you always are feeling like i'm lucky you know like i'm yeah you know the fact that you and i are sitting here talking we are in the club of lucky people you know yes uh but then you do like you can't just present rearward as margaret atwood atwood puts it you can't just like you know here i am to make because I also do have witnessed people that are like, whatever you want, guys. And that to them means, oh, all right. Well, fuck, you're a property now. We'll do whatever the fuck we want with you.

And we will. And because you've never said no to us, we just expect yes all the time. Yeah, it's a it's a and it's it takes time and it takes, you know. It's a it's a and it's it takes time and it takes, you know. You know, there's a certain level of fearlessness or just or just like just getting to the point where it's like, look, I'm not, you know. I'll be OK. I'll be OK. If this doesn't work out, I'll be OK. You know. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, when I look back at it and this is you know obviously uh thank goodness for therapists and people that you can talk through these things with but I think for me when I look at my career I there was a certain element of gratitude desperate gratitude that I felt in part because I was often the one, I was the diversity hire.

Yeah. And with my first job, I was constantly reminded I was the diversity hire. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun when someone you respect is constantly reminding you that like you're only here because of diversity and you don't actually cost the show anything the network is paying for you

so you're kind of a weird freebie um don't say that future employers out there let's don't say that no it's a bad idea. It's hurtful. It's bad parenting. No, it really is. But I think it also creates a conditioning that, like, that was my first job in this business. And so it's like, well, I guess I should be grateful to be here. And then I got The Daily Show, and some of that continued where I continued like I remember like my first week at the daily show uh being told like uh they were like uh

John had asked me uh what I had been doing because I right before I got the show my car had been repossessed i just lost my apartment and moved in with a friend like my life was in the skids financially and i they flew me out a week earlier than i was supposed to to start the show and i remember him talking about like like what were you doing? I was like, I was broke. Like, I was like, I, I had just gotten hired to do a voice on a Nickelodeon kids show. And I was like, that's going to maybe cover my rent.

But like, I was dead broke. I'd lost my truck. I lost my apartment. I had nothing i like borrowed 70 to go on a date with a woman uh because i had no i had zero cash and he was like oh wow like it's crazy because that's what your experience was but to us you were just a card on a bulletin board that we just moved here and it was like i see what you're saying but like you like do you understand how like how like you're viewing me as simply a note card that you move around isn't really like that's like that's not how you should treat humans as note cards

and like this and but for me going into the job i felt so grateful and every offense that i felt when you know i would watch people kind of like mock hip-hop and do rap hands and like do the weird like yo yo yo stuff where it like makes me cringe i'm like don't say shit just be grateful you're here like you were a note card like that's how that's how he views you that he could just move you like a note card off the bulletin board yeah yeah and it's and then and it continues to condition you in this way that like oh okay your career is like these moments where people are like that's amazing you worked on this show and it's like yeah but i always felt like i you know like you, I was constantly being told I should be grateful to be in these spaces.

And so it then, yeah, when I got my own thing, I never felt like I had that confidence or that power to truly be like, all right, I should push back and I should say what I want and I should be clear about the things that I need for this space to be the show I want it to be um because I should just be grateful to be here because I still felt like I'm just a note card on someone's on someone's bulletin board that they can just kind of like move around and will yeah without regard for what i'm actually what i'm actually going through yeah um yeah yeah the thing that you shouldn't relate to is that like these note cards are human beings and to me they're note cards it's like no the the thing you should relate to is that these note cards are human beings so you need to think of them as beings, not no cards, you know? Right. Yeah. But ultimately, I mean, but there also too is the aspect of like, I mean, we're all note cards on God's bulletin board.

But, you know, that's God, you know? Right. bring it over into show business too where i mean i'm sure that like there are grips that feel like you know regardless of of what their race or or gender and you know like i'm lucky to be here as a grip you know and that and what that in a capitalist society that's just whoa there's an opportunity for exploitation you're like okay you're lucky to be here. All right. Well then here, here's a big bowl of shit. Oh, yum, yum, yum. You know? Yeah. So I think that was one of the things having a show that I really, I think I really tried to take in and was a,

a lesson to learn was the idea that like there, everyone who is working on this show they have a value and they mean something but also they're going through something yeah and you don't know what they're going through and so don't treat them like a note card. Yeah. You know, when I think about my experience, you know, I, it's that idea that like I packed up and moved to New York overnight with no place to stay,

no money to my name. And it wasn't, you know, because of the way show business works, I, I wasn't paid for my first few months on the show. And I had just been the show put me up in a hotel for a week. And then I just had to sort of figure it out while working a full time job. And it was like, Oh, yeah, like, I think when I got the when I got my show and I wasn't perfect at it, but I think I tried to take that experience and also recognize that, like, there are 41 people in this building who are all being asked a lot, but are also going through things in their lives.

are also going through things in their lives and you may not get a window into what those things are but you need to make space for those things and you need to respect that while you want these things done at a certain time or in a certain way that there's also this human aspect of it that like these people aren't you know they're not robots they're not uh they they're not and they're not they're humans they they're not machine parts yeah yeah and they're not cogs in a wheel and you need to you need to respect that and respecting that means also carrying the weight of that and the weight of that responsibility that you have to do right by those people. And doing right by those people isn't just simply keeping the lights on in the building. do the work to make sure they feel seen that they feel like they have that they can come to whether it's you or somebody else when there are problems and when there are issues

or when they're just things they need yeah well why we have been talking for a while here i've been keeping you a while and we uh oh no it's been yeah it's been, yeah, it's been a, it's, it's been a great conversation and I wish we could go on much longer. Um, I mean, we can, I, I got nowhere to go. What are you? I have things. I have things. Wow. Oh, I have to be on, I have to be on Dana Gould's Dr. Zayas show. Sure. That's a, I'm sure if I look that up, that's a thing. You're not just making it up to well i get it please doc i got it gold's dr zeus show you don't know about that

i get it the conversation you know you just weren't uh you weren't into it i also want to make weird puppet shows and animated yeah yeah you've done some puppetry. We didn't have time to really get into the puppet work. Yeah, I made a puppet show that's kind of my version of Star Trek in space or Star Trek is in space. It is in space, yeah.

Star Trek, but focusing on the kind of the expendable characters on the ship. Yeah yeah and then i want to try to get back into animation i actually learned animation when i was a child um i i took community college classes when i was like 12 or so and so i would like to get back into that world too, but always love late night. Yeah. And yeah.

And I'm happy that you guys are still doing stuff and finding ways in this pandemic to, to where the old, we're the old man of the deal, but you know, and sort of, I mean, and everything seems to be so much more topical now, you know,

with the, some of them are, you know, some of them are less topical than others. Some of them seem to be about party games, as Don Rickles said. When somebody asked him, it was in a commercial break, asked him, or maybe it was even on the show, asked him if he was going to be on one of these shows. He said, yeah, I can't get booked on that show because I don't play ping pong. So you're like, Oh, thanks God. Don Rickles can say it. But anyway, thank you so much for the time.

And I hope when this all sorts out, we can grab a drink or something when all the world starts up again. I would love that. Yeah. Thank you for the time. And thank you. You know, I know that you talked about it. We talked a little bit about it before, but you really what you all did and not just with Late Night, but I I think about when I think about the comedy that I

have wanted to make and be a part of I think about even you know you at ImprovOlympic as somebody who went through that system yeah I you are somebody that I appreciate and have learned a lot from simply by getting to watch you. Oh, thank you. And in the opportunities when we've gotten to talk, I have always been grateful for them and have always enjoyed and hoped that I would get to talk to you and get to laugh with you. And I, I think about when I started doing late night shows, I wanted to, I wanted to do Conan. That was the show I wanted to do before I did any of the other ones. And one of my greatest moments as a late night moment was getting to do conan with you guys and uh tenacious d was on oh yeah and uh conan had said

he was like they're gonna perform and when they're done don't give up your seat and he was telling me while they were performing and it was this very odd thing because it felt like i was being invited in on the joke yeah yeah and i and they came and i stood up and i wasn't gonna move and they immediately moved me over and I was sitting on the couch with you and I remember Jack Black sat in the chair in a very odd way like I think he just sat like he put his feet in the chair yeah and Conan started talking about it and then you and i and kyle all did it too yeah and it was this thing where you guys made me feel so welcome to this like it was just we were improvising but it felt like you all welcomed me into the space in a way that I was so grateful for and so appreciative of. And it really made me feel like, okay, yeah, they see me as an equal or as a peer. And so thank you for seeing me as a peer. Oh, that's really about the nicest thing I've heard in months. So I really appreciate it.

Well, thank you. What a lovely way to end this episode of the three questions. Thank you again, Wyatt Cenac, for spending some time with us and talking. And thank you all. Thank you all out there for listening. I will get back at you next week

with more of this, I guess. Of us? No, of just this. Oh, okay. This whiny voice and the pontificating and the wah-wah, I'm sad, that

kind of thing. The sad boy hour. Yeah. Anyway. That's what this podcast is called, right? That's right. Come back next week for more sad boy hour. Yeah. Anyway, this podcast is called, right? That's right. Come back next week for more sad boy hour. Bye. The three questions with Andy Richter is a team Coco and Earwolf production. It's produced by me, Kevin Bartelt, executive produced by Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at team Coco and Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, associate produced by Jen Samples and Galit Sahayek,

and engineered by Will Becton. And if you haven't already, make sure to rate and review The Three Questions with Andy Richter on Apple Podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.