The Tim Ferriss Show - #102: "The Iceman," Wim Hof

Episode Date: September 7, 2015

WARNING: AS I’VE EMPHASIZED BEFORE, NEVER DO BREATHING EXERCISES IN WATER OR BEFORE TRAINING IN WATER. SHALLOW-WATER BLACKOUTS CAN BE FATAL. Wim Hof (@Iceman_hof) is a Dutch world record holder, adventurer and daredevil, commonly nicknamed “The Iceman" for his ability to withstand extreme cold. He is the creator of the Wim Hof Method and holds more than 20 world records. Wim is an outlier of outliers, as he routinely asks scientists to scrutinize and validate his feats. Here are just a few examples: In 2007, he climbed past the “death zone" altitude on Mount Everest (~7,500 meters) wearing nothing but shorts. In 2009, Hof completed a full marathon above the polar circle in Finland, in temperatures close to −20 °C (−4 °F). Dressed in nothing but shorts, Hof finished in 5 hours and 25 minutes. Hof holds the current Guinness World Record for the longest ice bath, now set at 1 hour 53 minutes and 12 seconds. But it’s not just cold. In 2011, he ran a full marathon in the Namib Desert without water. The run was performed under the supervision of Dr. Thijs Eijsvogels. He can also run at altitude without suffering from altitude sickness. In the same year, he was injected with toxins under doctor supervision and demonstrated that he could effectively control his autonomic immune response. Wim was able to raise his cortisol levels and lower his blood concentrations of cytokines (inflammatory mediators) using solely his meditation and prep techniques. Not only this, but he was able to train others to achieve the same effect… with only 4 days of training! We dig into all this and more. I loved this conversation and hope you do, too... All show notes, links, and resources from this episode can be found at http://fourhourworkweek.com/podcast This episode is brought to you by Audible, which I have used for years. I love audiobooks. I have two to recommend right off the bat: The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman – Perhaps my favorite audiobook of all time. Vagabonding by Rolf Potts – This book had a huge impact on my life and formed the basis for a lot of what has become The 4-Hour Workweek To get your free audiobook and a free 30-day trial, go to Audible.com/Tim. You can choose from the two audiobooks listed above or from 180,000+ audio programs. They offer audiobooks, magazines, newspapers and even classes. It’s that easy. Go to Audible.com/Tim and grab your free audiobook. This podcast is also brought to you by MeUndies. Have you ever wanted to be as powerful as a mullet-wearing ninja from the 1980’s, or as sleek as a black panther in the Amazon? Of course you have, and that’s where MeUndies comes in. I’ve spent the last 2-3 weeks wearing underwear from these guys 24/7, and they are the most comfortable and colorful underwear I’ve ever owned. Their materials are 2x softer than cotton, as evaluated using the Kawabata method. Check out MeUndies.com/Tim to see my current faves (some are awesomely ridiculous) and, while you’re at it, don’t miss lots of hot ladies wearing MeUndies.***If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews!For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Visit tim.blog/sponsor and fill out the form.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Listen up everyone, important warning for this episode. As I've emphasized before, you should never do breathing exercises in water or before training in water. So you should not use the Wim Hof method without proper supervision, A, and B, never do it preceding training in water or in water. Shallow water blackouts can be fatal. And I've seen some very, very scary accidents in the past, including a very close friend who recently remained unconscious underwater at a public pool for almost four minutes and remained unconscious for 20 minutes. He has a small son, could have died in the process. Do not make that mistake.

With all that said, please enjoy. So I'm recording. Could you just tell me maybe what you had for breakfast? Yeah, nothing. I had nothing for breakfast i never eat breakfast okay oh yeah just once a day all right we're gonna talk about that for sure let me just pause this at this altitude i can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking can i ask you a personal question? Now would have seemed the perfect time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

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Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Why, hello, lemurs and leprechauns. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, whether they are actors like Arnold Schwarzenegger, military strategists, or generals like Stanley McChrystal, chess prodigies like Joss Waitzkin, or, in this particular case, a miracle worker of sorts. In fact, you could say he is a daredevil. Wim Hof, otherwise known as the Iceman, is a Dutch world record holder, adventurer, certainly daredevil, and he's nicknamed the Iceman for his ability to withstand extreme cold. He is the creator of the Wim Hof Method and holds more than 20 world records. He is, in my mind, the outlier of outliers. Not because he does so many absurd

things and proves that these impossibles are in fact possible, but he routinely asks scientists to scrutinize and validate these feats. That's what makes him very, very unique and very interesting for this type of conversation. What are some of his feats? Well, in 2007, he climbed path of the death zone altitude on Mount Everest, which is around 7,500 meters, wearing nothing but shorts. In 2009, he completed a full marathon above the polar circle in Finland in temperatures close to negative 20 degrees Celsius. Again, dressed in nothing but shorts. He holds the Guinness World Record for the longest ice bath, which is around 1 hour, 53 minutes, and 12 seconds. But it's not just cold. He has run full marathons in the Namib Desert without any water. He has also had toxins injected into

himself under doctor supervision and demonstrated that he can effectively control his autonomic immune response. This is crazy talk. These are things that fly in the face of many textbooks, and now he is featured in textbooks himself because he has documented all of this. And it's not just a whim specialty. He is not a mutant. He is able to train others to achieve many of these same effects and abilities, in some cases with just four days of training. So we'll dig into all this and more. I love this conversation. He is a human guinea pig of human guinea pigs, certainly, and makes me feel like an amateur.

So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Wim Hof. Welcome to the show, Wim. I'm so pleased to have you. Great. Thank you for welcoming me this way. Thank you very much. I've been a fan for quite a few years because we have, as we mentioned before we started recording, a mutual friend in Ray Cronise, and he was in my second book. So I looked very closely at cold exposure. And of course, you, the Iceman, came up over and over again. So it's really nice to finally chat with you. I feel like it's been a long time coming. And also had two past guests or three past guests on this podcast, Laird Hamilton and Brian McKenzie, and also Gabby Reese, Laird's wife, who are big fans

of your methods and techniques who've been practicing it. So they are, you have a lot, a lot of fans out there, I'm sure listening as well. And I thought we could just start with your name. I've always loved your name. Is Wim your full name? Yes. W-I-M, Wim. And does that have any particular meaning, or how did your parents choose that name? Wim is a common name in Holland, in the Netherlands. But I looked it up, and it says it's the protector of the people. You know, any name has got some etymological roots to it.

My name is the protector of people. My brother's name, who is my twin brother, is André. André. En français, André. Andrew. Like Andrew. He is the protector of goods. So who's better?

I don't know. I suppose you need both. You need both protector of goods. So who's better? I don't know. I suppose you need both. You need both types of protection, right? And you have such a fascinating story and you have a lot of accolades, a lot of records, I think more than 20 world records at this point, it seems. What was the first world record that you said the first was in paris uh just staying half hour in immersed in ice and uh 12 days later i repeated uh uh the record time and make it made made it uh an hour in uh holly. Yes. And I saw one also. I mean, you've spent a lot of time in ice baths. And I've largely influenced by you and a handful of other people, Tim Noakes, Ray, and a huge fan of ice baths.

And my fans always complain about it. But I've seen you in so many containers full of ice. I saw one where it looks like there was a lot of Chinese or Japanese in the background. What has been the most challenging cold exposure experience that you've had, whether it's for records or anything else? Maybe losing my sight while I was swimming underneath a ice deck of almost one meter and i had no goggles on so i lost sight at 35 meters something like 40 yards and i lost the hole and uh yeah i think it's like shit shit happened it happened over there right there the meter ice deck above me so uh yeah that was some great experience another one was uh losing my uh way uh on mount everest in shorts and uh

at like 18 000 feet in a in a blizzard in a like aout. So things like that happen, yeah, and they are challenging. But then it throws me back to the depth of myself, which is trust and confidence, and I got it. What do you say to yourself in one of those moments? So I guess physiologically, did your retinas just freeze or when you were swimming under the ice deck in a moment like that, when many people would panic, I mean, did you panic? If so, what was the mental self-talk when you realized that was happening? Very interesting. The stress level at that moment is absent. It's not there. I'm just dealing with the situation. And it has been shown in the university that our stress levels, the stress hormone levels, are able to be raised lying in bed more than somebody in fear for the first time going into a bungee jump oh going into a

doing a bungee jump for the first time yeah yeah but not me but because a bungee jump yeah you're attached but very unexpected situations in in nature like a blizzard or swimming beneath ice and losing the hole because your eyesight is gone. Things like that or climbing without gear, steep mountains and having cramps. And what do you do at that moment? And that's exactly what I learned, how to raise consciously the stress hormone level purely controlled. And I'm able to deal with the situation at that moment without panicking. And I think that's one of the crucial findings which could benefit for human mankind as it is, you know, very subjected to stress all the time, panicking, having fear, and all that. And I learned in nature how to deal with that. And the cult brought me

that science, brought me that knowledge, wisdom, actually. And the raising of stress hormones, so controlling something that has long been thought to be part of the autonomous nervous system, something that you have no control over. And we'll get to the breathing, because breathing is very interesting since it's both autonomous, but you can consciously control it and practice different methods. I think it was certainly in the Vice documentary that recently came out, which I recommend to everyone and I'll link to in the show notes. But was it in 2011 that you were injected with some type of virus or bacteria to see if you could control the immune response? That was at the Dutch, I'm going to mispronounce this, the Radboud University? Exactly. Radboud University in Holland and Int intensive care nuclear science. I underwent an experiment and they injected me with an endotoxin, with a toxin actually, which is a part of a bacteria.

And that creates a very dramatic immune response. And as we have no control over the immune response in our body, they thought I was not able to do it as well as expected because nobody showed to be able to suppress the immune response because it is part of the autonomic nervous system and nobody is able to do that until now i showed that i was very able within a quarter of an hour instead of hours suffering from uncontrolled shivering fever headaches and all that i show within a quarter of an hour to have control complete over the symptoms and also the cytokines, which are the inflammatory beings in the blood created by the immune response. And I showed in the blood and by blood results to suppress them dramatically within a quarter. And then they told me, OK, but you are an exception that confirms the rule because you have been training so many years. You are the Iceman. You do exceptional features. But nobody is able to do that without that proper training of so many years.

And I told them, no, I can train them within 10 days. And then the professor was really challenged. to be able to influence deeply into the autonomic nervous system related to the immune system, then that's for the first time in the scientific history. So, but he saw the indication of the possibility, but still thought those guys are not going to be able to do that within 10 days and you know what it wasn't within 10 days it wasn't with four days of training that i made them able to undergo

the same experiment that that means the the injection of the endotoxin and have them within a quarter of an hour completely control over their immune system related to the autonomic nervous system. So they showed a 100% score of everybody to be able within a couple of days to tap into the autonomic nervous system related to the immune system. And the training, about the training prior to it, we had our beers, you know, in the evening. And a lot of music and very relaxed. And their mindset, I said,

hey guys, probably you guys are the new gladiators uh well we are going to win the the worst war ever which uh produced uh uh uh the much uh the most casualties agony pain and all that. And that's the bacteria. That's the vaccine. That's the virus. And we're going to win this war. Are you with me?

That's the way I talk to them. And so they had a mindset. So in the evening, we had a relaxed. It was like a hippie movement. But this is a new revolution. In four days' time, they were able, at the fourth day, without prior experience in the cold, they were able to go in shorts by minus 10. That's about, I don't know, Fahrenheit Celsius.

This is Celsius. It means freezing cold. Yeah, it's probably in the 20s. Yes, in the 20s. Below freezing, yeah. And then for hours and hours, we were going uphill and up the mountain, and we arrived at the summit after hours, and it was minus 27. Minus 27 Celsius. That is more than minus 20.

It's probably 10, something like that. And we danced the Harlem Shake up there. Then I knew these guys, these guys are ready. In four days' time when they will be internalized in the hospital and injected with the endotoxin, they will be able. Because I feel when somebody is back into its natural state of his or hers physiology. And I know how to do that. The cold trained me. The cold is my teacher.

And with these subjects, I'm so curious to ask because the, I mean, I am certainly not as proficient as you are in any of these techniques, but I've enjoyed experimenting over the last 10 years and writing about these short experiments, whether it's related to breath holding with David Blaine or other aspects. Obviously, you're a professional and I am not, but I'd be very curious to hear you perhaps elaborate, for instance, on the first day of training with these subjects in preparation to be injected four days later. Sure. What did the first day of training look like for them?

Just in the morning at 8 o'clock without food intake, we do breathing. And they lie on the ground all because that's the most relaxed pose and if you are relaxed you are able to store up a whole lot more oxygen than when in tension or in posture so i say to them just lay down acts. Now we are going to begin. Just breathe in deeply and let go. Breathe in deeply, let go. Make it a rhythm. Breathe in deeply, let go. Not fully out, but fully in and let go. And And repeat that about 30, 40 times until these indications or symptoms come by. And that means lightheadedness, loose in the body, feeling loose in the body, tingling, contractions. That's because carbon dioxide goes out. Oxygen is roaming freely throughout the body, and the pH levels rise. They are optimized.

So they get to their best condition. And that's proven. That's proven. And when we do this, they saw all these results chemically. Then once you feel positively charged with all these symptoms of lightheadedness, feeling loose, contractions, and tingling in the body, ask them, just breathe in deeply, let go. And now the last time, breathe in deeply let go and now the last time breathe in deeply let go and after

letting go after exhalation stop reframe from breathing there's no need we get a whole lot of oxygen and measurement devices are not able to detect how much it's more than 100 that's my opinion but devices still are not able to detect that they only can go up to a hundred percent as they say but the hundred percent that a body is able to store up more oxygen than measurement devices of now are able to measure. So then after one and a half minutes, then you see that the measurement device shows 100%. And then it goes dramatically down afterwards. And you're using a pulse oximeter, like something that you clip on your finger?

Yes. Pulse oximeter. So you need a heartbeat. You have a heartbeat. And you have the saturation of the oxygen inside the blood. So the amount of oxygen. So after one and a half minutes, you see with everybody that the saturation of the blood is going down. You know, people with COPD, that's lung diseases and all that.

They suffer from real severe COPD when they have 85. We go to 90, to 80, 70, 60, 50. People die at 50 and 40, 40% saturation in the blood. We go past. We go even to 30, and then the device, measurement device, the oximeter shuts down. It is not measuring anymore. But we even go past that one.

Now, why don't you, why don't the subjects pass out at this point? They don't pass out because they are alkaline i see their the ph degrees are really perfect at that moment and in instead of a person who's dying is very acidic so that's the difference so uh because we are so alkaline, people maybe sometimes are able to pass out, but just two seconds or three seconds because they are out of their conditioned control. But after exercising, they have regained not only control in those moments and those situations, they win a new part in the brain, they get very deep in the brain, and it's all new terrain. It's like a baby. A baby has no problem with her legs, but there are no motorical neurons to the legs yet established. So we are

going into different parts of the brain where the guy or the girl never has been. So it's logic that people are able to pass out, but nothing happens because they are alkaline. So they just wake up and mostly, or mostly, almost always, they wake up very happy. And it's like a drug experience. But that's besides of the real effect I'm trying to not try, which we showed scientifically, is to be able to tap into the immune system in all the layers. Those are three layers. And normally we are not able to get into the second and the third layer. And I say now we have found a key to the second and the third layer. That means the non-specific immune system and the specific adaptive immune system.

And that makes us looking to disease completely different because our ability is so much more and we have been publishing people in boston they published it throughout america on the universities chapter 22 on biology now and it tells that we have tapped into the autonomic nervous system, into the innate immune system, which was up till now not possible. And we did it 100% with a group of nine people, showing that they were very able to do it, all of them, within a quarter of an hour, and have spectacular results. that it is science now and now it needs to get to every person in the world how to tap into the deeper layers of our physiology without training you know years and years and years and being jogies or being the super athletes and all that. No,

my aim is within a couple of days, we are all able to tap into the deepest layers of our physiology and reset our immune system, bring it under our will. And that's my aim but then uh we make fun too and all that but for being serious that's my goal right no i was just gonna say i mean it's very hard to get the i think you're approaching it in a very intelligent way because it's very hard to get truly serious work done if you're serious all the time. So I enjoy, it's very fascinating for me as a teacher to watch how you coach your subjects because you use beer, you have guitar, and I think it's a very important component. It would seem to be. And I wanted to ask you about the breathing on day one, just one more time, which is, is the breathing exercise on day one, something that then the subjects use during the injection

or before the injection, or is it an exercise to prove to them that they can do more than they think they can do? And it's more of a confidence builder that you use to set the tone for the rest of the training? Yes, both. So it's a confidence builder and is very effective at the moment when something like an injection has come in and they know it will result in a dramatic immune response and they have to build up and make alert their shield or their protective lines of defense, which is the immune system. Yes. So both, both.

And is this something that you can do after the fact? So for instance, at this point with your level of proficiency, if you were to contract a disease without realizing it and then to get very sick, would you be able to reverse that? Or is it something that needs to be – does the shield need to be activated beforehand in order for you to control that autonomous – so-called autonomous response? Interesting. Very nice. It's both preventive and healing. So once a specific hormone or molecule must be generated to get to an invader, a non-self invader in the body, which could be a bacteria, a virus, or a back cell, which got through the first two lines of defense, then the third line is more specific. But it takes normally like weeks or sometimes it's not traceable because an invader is mutating.

But we have now a method that is able to tap into the third layer and make the specific adaptive immune system rapidly active, even after something comes in so it's both preventive but is also when you feel you become sick so a an invader has gotten in then you are still very able to restore the balance within. Got it. Yes. And if we're looking at the explanation that the scientists have at this point for your ability and your subject's ability to protect themselves or shield themselves, it seemed like one hypothesis was you being able to increase, I think, noradrenaline or norepinephrine levels in the body. Do you agree with that or do you think there are other, do you have other theories?

I do. I do. I'd love to hear. It's like if you have HIV and then the immune system is still looking for answers up till a moment that it is not able to specify anymore what's going on. And then we get AIDS. That means that all the defense systems are shut down. Now, we have shown by norepinephrine and noradrenaline, adrenaline, that we can suppress the inflammation. That means the inflammatory bodies and creating an immune response. And we suppress it. That would be like shutting down the immune system. That makes us, following the scientific logic, that makes us more vulnerable.

No, what we do, and they still awaken the third line, which normally takes weeks or months to find a specific hormone or molecule, which then is going for the target cell to go on the membrane and to kill the cell. So that's interesting. It's almost like internal drug development. You're trying to find the lock that, I'm sorry, the key that fits the proper lock, but you're doing it internally. And it normally takes a very long time biologically to conclude with, but you're accelerating that process exactly and then these hormones are not needed anymore because the specific hormone the specific molecule gets on the cell membrane and then all this uh like fire uh people uh which is noradrenaline gets throughout the system and the epinephrine as well and they suppress the

inflammation the the action and but that is only possible when the the target is already annihilated when the target has a specific molecule on it because of the third line of defense right and that's that that's what we found we found a way and it's also dr kevin tracy from manhattan new york who tells that he is very much he's an authority in the biochemistry and i worked with him in 2007 and i showed I was able in his institute to suppress or to influence the vague nerve which is the vagus nerve yeah yes and now he told in nature he told immunity does not come without neural regulation. They found a way. So what do you, now, for instance, I did my undergraduate for a very short period of time. In college, I studied neuroscience.

And I remember when I was in college, there was a professor there who determined that, for instance, the neurons in the hippocampus could actually be regenerated. And this was very, very big news because people had assumed for a very long time in a number of parts of the brain that neurons could not be regenerated. Basically, as you got older, you just lost neuronal function and it could not be restored. Now we know that's not true, right? And so you're having this similar experience where you are proving to people that things are possible that were thought impossible. What other impossibles do you think we will prove are possible in the next, say, five years in your kind of area of experimentation? Very, very nice thought and a very good question. I think depression, for example, and the brains itself. We are able to tap into the brains and do so much more,

influence so much more, which is related to the hypothalamus, the pineal gland, the pituitary gland, the hippocampus, and the amygdala, the seed of emotion. All these are part and around the brainstem, which is the reptilian brain, the primitive brain. brain and because of our comfort way of living and behavior this part doesn't get enough stimulation right we're untrained yes it doesn't get the stimulation nor oxygen so there is a certain kind of deregulating pH level going on. It's just a lack of oxygen. There is no action, no stimulation. So in time, it begins to malfunction. And that's actually sort of a logic. So we suffer from a whole lot, for example, of depression in the Western world because we go too much into

the neocortex, the superficial brain, the new brain, and we have to do all kinds of things and deadlines and worries and we cannot stop it and it consumes all the energy. What I do and learn is to go into the brainstem again. The simplicity of our reptilian brain, the primitive brain, the brainstem, which is related to all these beautiful glands over there, which is the pineal gland, the pituitary gland, and the controller of us, which is the hypothalamus. Right. And the seat of emotion itself, which is the amygdala. It's all there.

And so I found a way to get into that and show, just by this example of ours, to lying in bed, people are able to produce more adrenaline than somebody who is in fear going into a bunker jump for the first time. You see what I mean? Right. That means fear, emotion, uncontrollable emotions and fear we are able to control that and that's because we tap controlled into the brainstem and produce any adrenaline or epinephrine or uh all these all these uh uh gland no, not glands, hormones, we need. And it's the pineal

gland, finally, which is the control of all the other glands in our body. So we are able now to tap into that. So the coming five years, I want to eradicate depression. I want to eradicate depression. I want to eradicate the, yeah, actually a disease.

I know there are big words, but we are into that. I'm not only into that. There are also professors, biochemists, who stand my point. And they see it's so simple, so accessible and so effective, but it needs to be translated into our infrastructure of thinking as well as of interests. It needs to cooperate with schooling. Now we got on the university. That's nice. It's coming top down because if the U.S. universities are taking it on, then soon all the universities in the world will follow. So we find – okay, I rest my point for now.

So with, for instance, depression, so I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who have bounced with depression or even extended depression. That's no control over their mood. Right. That's no control over the brainstem. Right. So let's bring it back to the brainstem. Right. So, for instance, I find that it's very helpful for me, at least, to use cold exposure. And whether that's cold showers or ice bath,

it has a tremendous mood-elevating effect or maybe mood-balancing effect, depending on how we want to explain it. But for someone who is feeling depressed, what are some simple things that you would recommend that they try, potentially? First, get into conscious breathing, deeper breathing and be consciously doing that.

It showed in the university that I was able just, you know, about consciousness, just by thinking that I was going into an experiment, I raised cell on cell level, the metabolic activity in the cell were 300% just by thinking. That's our mind. So our mind should be

with people who are depressed, they just got lost. They have no control. So they have to regain control by consciously going into breathing. Breathing brings about deeper breathing, brings about a better pH level in the body, but not only in the body, also in the mind. And the right pH level will make the neurotransmitters, that's your mind, electrical signals finally,

work better. And then you are able to learn to direct these neurotransmitters or thoughts, the mind itself, consciously with the right pH degree. So we make it simple and we say conscious breathing all the time because you lost track and it takes energy, it takes your mind and you got to bring back your mind under your

control. And this, I think, is related to a broader topic of compulsive behavior, right? Or people who have automatic behaviors that are not serving them. And one of those is oftentimes eating or overeating. And before we started recording, I asked you what you had for breakfast and you said nothing because you eat once per day. So could you describe what your daily eating ritual is? I eat after six o'clock in the afternoon and that's already for 35 years. And there is, I got a lot of energy and you know why? You have a lot of allergies. No, energy. Oh, I'm sorry sorry got it maybe allergies

as well women you know okay just to make fun you know i think you and i have to have wine next time we do this I think it's very healthy. Very good. The thing is, by better breathing, conscious breathing, you make this chemical process in the cell happen, which is called aerobic dissimilation. And in the cell production to make energy,rial energy you need food but if you are able to influence by better breathing a deeper breathing then you produce simple metabolic activity in the mitochondria by better breathing and that creates energy which was the purpose of food.

So food is nice. Hello? I'm here. Oh, yeah. Food is nice. Food is great. You should do it with a lot of love fast but i have to feel you know the senses really gets are going to be much more effective and the cell activity is going to be much more

effective and it is using all the food and you can eat after six o'clock i can eat what i want the other day i'm slim again and that's making you know we're making the body work but as we eat all the day long the body is not shutting down it's not effective anymore doesn't go deep doesn't go into survival motives it's not natural again so it's beginning to store up all the fats because it doesn't know what to do anymore because the deeper mechanisms are not working anymore so yeah and how to bring that and what do you usually what what are some typical meals that you have after 6 p.m.? I like pasta. And I like a couple of beers, too.

Yeah, sure. Sounds good. The eating ritual is very interesting. I've interviewed a number of people on this podcast, including General Stanley McChrystal. He's a four-star general, and he's also famous for getting a lot of exercise early in the day and eating one meal per day. He's also very well known for that. You described the breathing exercise, some of the breathing exercises that you do, does the type of breathing that you do have anything, is it similar in any ways to holotropic breath work, if you're familiar with that?

And I heard from someone, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, that some scientists had looked at whether you were producing or releasing more DMT during some of your breathing activities. Is that accurate, or did I get some misinformation from someone? Oh, no, that's a professor, right? Yeah, I don't know. Colorado, I don't know. What is his name again? I don't know. He's an authority in the field. But I had a dialogue with him, and he was talking about all this, you know, ayahuasca and all these drugs and all this and experimenting.

And I told him, I'm able to produce, to trigger the pineal gland in a way that DMT is released. And yes, it can make people very, very happy doing all these breathing exercises. That's true. But the purpose of DMT actually is to work out the subconscious while dreaming in the rapid eye movement sleep and the other one is uh when you die then dmt is released as well as to make it more you know happy uh going after uh having a have a nice time go to the other side something like that so there is a natural purpose for DMT. But I'm very able to trigger that creates DMT. And I told him also, it's not only about the DMT, which is very nice, it's a nice drug and all that. But the better part of it is if we are able to trigger the pineal gland,

which is related directly to the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland, if we are able to trigger that one and to decalcify because of our comfort way of living this pineal gland, then this gland is able to direct all the other glands. It's the only gland that is directing all the other glands, and we can neurally connect with it, with our neocortex is what we do, and it shows them that we are able to prevent from disease or bacteria coming in because we are able to activate it much more directly and that's the main purpose to you know for looking different at what creates disease it's because of our pineal gland or the brainstem is not really active anymore

because it's neglected because of our comfort style of living and behavior. And we want to make a shortcut and to show it that it is simple, accessible, and effective. Well, I think that the comfort is important to underscore because I was having a conversation with Dean Karnasas several years ago. He's a famous ultra marathoner. You guys would probably have a lot to talk about. And he ran 50 marathons in 50 days in 50 states. He's one of those guys. And he said that he lives in Northern California near San Francisco, where I live. And one of his lines, and I might be paraphrasing this, but he said that uh he lives in northern california near san francisco where i live and he's in one of his lines and i might i might be paraphrasing this but he said you know people now they confuse being happy with being comfortable and they think being comfortable is being happy but that those

are not the same thing and uh i'd like to talk about discomfort for a second. So you ran a marathon in, was it Death Valley with no water? Yes, I think like that. Yeah, Namibia. Namibia, that's right. Even more dangerous because you have snakes and whatnot. So is it possible to not, so of course, when you are submerged in ice, it's been demonstrated that you can maintain your core body temperature for a very long period of time. Is it possible for you to drop your body temperature in a hot climate or is it training yourself to withstand the higher temperatures? Yes, exactly.

Both, actually. uh both actually your your tolerance is rising and that means you are able to endure a whole lot more because you are able to influence the hormonal system in a way that neutralizes pain signals that's one the other one is because of my training in the cold, I not only trained in the cold, I trained to endure impact of temperature. And those are receptors of ours, which I have trained. And then because of that, which is controlled by the hypothalamus, is the thermoreg regulator of our body. And because I trained in the cold, I trained the thermal regulation of the body. Then without training, without training a meter of running, then not drinking a full marathon in the Namib Desert, in the heat, without prior training or ever been there before,

I was very able to do that because this thermoregulative mechanism, the hypothalamus, I had trained in the cold, which is the temperature impact. So I learned to deal with the temperature. And you know what? And not only the temperature, which is cold and heat, but also deprivation of oxygen. That means going up Mount Everest in shorts. That means there's a very cold out there. There is no oxygen and you need oxygen to for combustion in the in the cell to create heat energy and there is no oxygen so i learned in the cold how to deal with impact on the nervous system on our metabolism that means cold deprivation of oxygen a heat but also stress daily stress

so the secret of our comfort as you say and the people say they are confusing uh like the paraphrasing this this this great guy of uh northern californ California who is telling the truth. We are confused. We don't know anymore what real comfort is. Real comfort is the power to regulate all the impacts existent in life. That means disease, which has impacts on our body, heat, cold, deprivation of oxygen, stress in general. Any stress.

And we are able to control that a whole lot more. And that brings about the real comfort. Because if you connect yourself with all the systems within, then you feel really good. Real good is real connection. And that's something – that's why all these outdoor freaks and idiots, etc., like myself, are doing this. Because we just feel good. Well, it seems like it's also feeling comfort is in a way becoming confident in discomfort, right? So you have a confidence that you can handle and adapt to whatever's going to come your way. Much like some of the, I suppose, elite military that I've met

who are actually very relaxed. I mean, most of the high level guys I've met who are very, actually very relaxed. I mean, the most, most of the high level guys I've met because they've systematically exposed themselves to discomfort. So they don't fear discomfort, if that makes sense. Exactly. They control their stress hormone release completely. Right. That's what I'm talking about. Now you, you speak, uh, how many languages do you speak 10 10 that is a lot of languages how did you learn that many languages just be open and love to learn and that's it

i i had no real teachers then you know people in the. And sometimes I had to look for a teacher, like a Japanese teacher here in Amsterdam and a Hindu teacher, a pandit. And so, yeah, I was just interested. If you are interested in life, you get to know. And you never stop learning because you love it. What language, of all the languages you've tried, what was the hardest for you? The hardest? Maybe Polish. Polish?

Polish. Because it's a complete different set of grammatical structures. I see. Polish. Na zdrowie. I guess I have a... I bet you know that one. Yeah, yes, of course.

Drinking beer? Come on. I know. We definitely have to have a round two with some wine and beer. But the next question I'd love to ask is perhaps a simple one, but why are people fat? And how can people develop more brown fat and use it effectively? Yes, people are being fed because it's a protective mechanism of our bodies. It's actually an answer to too much impact, too much wrong chemistry going on. So it wants to make an insulation. That's a natural thing to do of the body now we are suffering from that now it's called obesity and you know being overweight and we have no control

just bring them back to the control how do we do that by by this adipose brown fat adipose because they have a mostly of those people have also an absence of brown fat because they have no stimulation anymore for a longer time and then this insulation reflex is beginning to build up and build up but actually this telling hey guy I'm trying to do my best for you, but you are not doing anything in return. And as long as you're not triggering or stimulating the adipose, the brown fat, then it succumbs, it goes away. And then it is not able to divert white fat into energy anymore. So it's gone. With people with obesity, they have no brown fat anymore. So there is a logic explanation to it, and I know it.

So they have to bring it back. And is that cold exposure primarily that would be the first step to try to… Cold exposure, natural exposure to the first step to try to hold cold exposure uh natural exposure to the elements that's one in an adaptive way gradual way i mean then we are able to adapt towards it but as these mechanisms are not working really well within these people so they have to be very uh you know sensitive and and uh and uh gradual going into it and breathing breathing is chemistry is chemical is influencing the chemistry right here right now better breathing deeper breathing brings about a better ph degree in the body which then finally results in a faster

metabolism and if people are practicing this or want to practice this breathing on their own is there any particular mantra or anything they should focus on or say to themselves as they're doing this is any type of meditation okay to start with like using an app like headspace or calm or do you have a particular recommendation? If someone said, I have 10 minutes a day I'm willing to spend doing this, what would you say to them? Yeah, just have your favorite music going on. Go really into it and go really into the breathing because it's about chemical changes. And whenever you hear the right music, you are able to relax more and more oxygen than is able to get into the body, which is finally changing the pH levels in the body to its natural state.

That's what we have. Because we live in such a compressed society, too much stress going on, we do not have control over the stress. We get out of our natural state. So within 10 minutes, I say within 4 minutes, just do this breathing exercise, which I teach people, and do push-ups. Push-ups without air in the lungs you should do that so you do that after the after the exhale yes after the air first you do like 30 like i explained deeply within let go deeply within look at the indications, feeling loose in the body, lightheaded, contractions, a little bit tingling. That's all okay.

Like 30 or 40 deep breaths and then letting go. 40 times. Then you will arrive at that being charged with oxygen and CO2, carbon dioxide got away, pH level has gotten up, then you should breathe in fully, let it go, after exhalation you stop, and you go do push-ups. And you will see you are able to do more push-ups without air in the lungs because you're influenced into the chemistry. And probably a good idea to do on a soft surface

first, just in case you decide to kiss the floor a little too hard. No, this is something that Laird and his guys have been working on as well. I mean, a lot of these guys are working doing push-ups or stationary bike. Very interesting. They have free divers that they sometimes work out with. It's very fascinating. Great. Well, I'm going to try that. I would love to switch gears just a little bit and ask you a couple of rapid questions. You can certainly take your time. It doesn't mean you have to answer them quickly. But the first is when you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind for you? The heart in any person. The heart. The heart in any person. That's success. Further, maybe Mandela. Nelson Mandela. Yes. And with the heart, if someone feels like, if someone doesn't feel successful,

uh, what would you, what would your advice be to them? Or what would you, what would you say to them? Yeah, just do the method. I mean, this method is showing scientifically to be able to tap into the deepest of our physiology. If somebody feels he's frustrated frustrated it's because he is not able to tap in his or hers physiology at the deepest he has no control that makes people frustrated and we we we mirror that with society and all that but you got your. If you are able to steer your vehicle, your body, your mind toward whatever you feel, then you will be successful. Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt. I was just going to ask, why Nelson Mandela? He's just a good guy.

He was always smiling. He loved the women. And he stayed like 25 years believing in his case right and that makes him for me uh really strong and uh i love people who have faith simply because that's what i feel and yes i uh i've been uh so so many years neglected and uh mocked and mocked and all that, but I always had my faith. And now it is science. For the same, like 20 years ago, they told me,

you're crazy, you're an idiot, you're a lunatic and all that. Yes? And even in my family, I was the black sheep. And right now, I'm the whitest sheep ever. So it's a lot of hypocrisy going on in the world because people do not know. But I got my faith. I got my belief. showed everybody is able to tap in its endocrine system so much that depression and being unhappy and being frustrated is no longer part of humanity. It's a choice. No, this is a topic I think we could talk about for a long time. What is your favorite

book or the book that you've given to other people the most as a gift? Whoa. I never gave so many books. Except for the books I'm writing right now. What do you give to people as gifts? What do you like to give people as gifts? Oh, stones. Stones.

A lot of stones. And natural things. I give people natural things. I collect a whole bunch natural things i give people natural things oh i collect a whole bunch of things and then two months later i'm i'm fed up with the thing and then i think this one wants to go with you and those are beautiful stones when i saw them the first time i thought wow great stone beautiful oh this uh artifact oh what great wow nice then two months later i'm saying it's gone you know then i just gave it away and so uh with books the same thing uh as

sidarta sidarta and jonathan livingston seagull comes to my mind and That's okay. In some scriptures, I read about the Bhagavad Gita and the Bible, of course. All these books, I was reading hundreds of books and at a certain point, I could not make the connection with the deepest within myself, which was the seeker.

I was soul-searching. And I found it finally in the open book of the ice water. Because the ice water is merciless but righteous. It brings you just within. And there is no chit-chatting around that. There is no philosophy. You just do around that. There is no philosophy. You just do it right or you do it wrong. Now, you've had, of course, some very challenging times, perhaps more so than many people I've spoken with.

You had a very tragic premature death with with your wife in the case of your wife what do you do to to overcome those dark periods yes very uh very good very interesting very real and deep gone uh losing uh the person you love i have four children with her. They work with me right now. They are like 33 years old, the oldest one. And then two daughters and another son. And they all work with me right now.

Oh, actually, one is working right now at the Dutch embassy in Washington, D.C., in America. But the rest is working with me all the time. So losing the love of your life, how deep can you go? And being teared apart. That was what I was the only person who was, you know, I was alone and had to raise four kids alone.

And they were like seven years old, eight years, nine years and 11 years. And I had to raise them alone. So I received so much love of my kids and I did my training. And as I told you, the brainstem is also the area of the seat of emotion, which is the amygdala. And because of this training in the cult, I could control, silence myself and go on and always find the energy to go on because emotion is going deep. And as we live in the comfort zone, we have no control mostly over emotion. And I tell you, there is a way to control the seed of emotion, which is the amygdala connected in the area of the brainstem.

So I think this, not think, my experience tells me discipline, discipline and believing, believing within. There is a way to silence grieved, broken hearts, grief and hurt yes it's so it's the way i did it and the um it's it's really been fascinating for me to observe a number of people i won't mention some of the other names but who have used specifically uh exposure to the cold to i suppose the purity of that cold and the attention that requires, the sort of purity of attention that it requires to overcome very dark periods or to act as a very strong component for passing through those difficult periods. It's just,

it's a very fascinating pattern that I've observed in a number of my friends. I recognize it. What is your morning, the first 60 minutes of your day look like? When do you wake up? What do you do in those first 60 minutes if you have complete control over that morning? First, I begin to consciously breathe.

When you wake up? Yes. Life is all about vital force created by oxygen just it's for free and it's there and i said it's to me it's so it's god itself like pneuma the vital force the chi the prana it's all different names of god. They tell all the belief systems tell that that's the vital force of any of life itself.

So that's a very logic, natural way I begin. Just breathe. Still laying in bed. Yes, still laying in bed. And then doing the exercise, which I explained prior in this interview, is very nice because you are still very relaxed and the body is without tension. So you then are able to go tap deeply into the system. And how long will you do that in bed typically?

Yeah, stay a half hour, something like that, before going into action. Could be an hour because it's never, never boring. What would you say to someone who says, you know, actually, I find it really boring? I'm not saying that I feel that way, but if someone felt boring, what would you advise them?

Or what would you tell them? It's once again, the same thing as this Californian great guy. Dean, yeah, Dean Karnasas. Yeah, Dean Karnasas. They don't know what comfort is all about. So just by breathing into the depth of our physiology, it's like gaining the aim of all those people going into outdoor

or taking drugs or doing extremes or going for a rush. Now you are able to learn to control the depth of your physiology by just breathing properly and going into that system. And boring is something if you are doing things repetitiously, but not breaking through the conditioning. And I learned people to go through the conditioning. Right. So if you have to be conscious about the activity, you can't be daydreaming. It seems you just have to be attentive to your breathing when you're doing something like this. Yes. Yes. Just go into it. it's like vipassana meditation that's what they do you know they sit and they just listen and and focus on breathing that's all and what they do and they

get into a deeper layer of their brain because they are not giving their focus to something else than just mere breathing. It is so simple, but so effective. I'll try that tomorrow morning. So let's say you do that for a half hour. Then what do you do for the next half hour? Nowadays, I do a lot of workshops, lectures, and I'm into science. But in between, I do exercising. I like exercising.

What type of exercise do you... If you had to choose one type of exercise or two types of exercise for yourself, what would you choose? Strength and flexibility. What would you do for both of those strength for example stay on two arms say four minutes like a plank or just different types of poses on two arms yeah with one hand or two a plank or handstands or pull-ups, push-ups, of course. Those are power exercises or stand in a horse stance for an hour. That is sometimes just with stones in my hands and I make all kinds of Kung Fu-like movements,

just make them up. But, you know, to uh the acidic processes in my body so i go deeply into the horse stance and breathe in a way that the acid is not developing in the body so that makes me control the body and that feels good and then for flexibility yeah all kinds of splits and put a couple of legs in my uh behind my head things you know i do balancing uh exercises it's nice i i i maintain the body that way right do you listen to music when you're exercising or do you do it without music? I simply have no record systems. But right now, we bought a Santa.

So I will have my big dojo and a cascade and all that and a swimming pool and all those things, and that I will have the right music. I make music myself. I play the guitar. I sing. I want to make a CD very soon. And people like me singing, doing all kinds of mantras, because I learned about the Sanskrit and Spanish songs, English songs, and all kinds of songs. I just make up. I'm a sort of a rapper too.

I'd love to hear it. And what musician do you look up to the most? Is there a particular musician that you would like to emulate or look up to? I like a lot of lounge, easy music. I like Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson's great. Yeah, yeah, he is. Do you have a favorite song or a favorite album? Of Michael Jackson?

Yes. Yeah, all the songs. This Is It, for example. It's a great song. Thriller. Oh, yeah, great. Thriller is great. And his voice's a great song. Oh, yeah. Great song. It's great. And his voice is mesmeric.

Oh, yeah. Totally. Yes. So I gave my son his name, which is Michael, which is one of my songs. So things like that. But also Pink Floyd. Also Gypsy Kings, you know, Flamingo. And all the good music.

There's a lot of good music going on. Yes. Well, I can't wait to visit the center. Is that going to be in Holland? Yes. For now, it's in Holland. I was looking to make a center near San Francisco as well. I got some very good friends over there.

You should. You should come out. Maybe we'll do a workshop and I can introduce you to – I'll invite Dean as well. You could meet Dean. Yes, yes. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. He would love to meet you, I'm sure.

Just a few more questions. I want to be obviously respectful of your time. What purchase in the last six months or a year of less than $100, so something you bought for less than $100, has most positively impacted your life? Stones. Stones. I love these stones. I want to talk about stones. So how do you find these stones and what makes you pick one do you have any favorites i always take uh stones out whatever touches my meets the eye uh i i take them from the mountains i climbed but uh i also like these you know amethysts and uh opals and all kinds of

you know beautiful stones with beautiful colors i like that but uh yeah i always take stones from the uh i just found a big fossil in the in the spanish pyrenees you know big big means like two three kilos it's a big big fossil, yeah. Yeah, a fossil. And I couldn't get it down because I was with a group that had no backpack. I had to carry the ropes because we were doing canyoning and all that. But there was a girl from Austin, Texas, Elizabeth Lee, and she had a backpack, and she carried it for me.

That's a good friend. Yeah, I love her so much. So what effect do you put that in your kitchen? Where do you put such a stone, and what effect does it have on you? Everywhere. They have a solid effect they are simply there and they are beautiful and i always pass them on to other people except for the big ones what uh what advice would you give your 30-year-old self?

My 30-year-old self? Just have faith. Just have faith. Faith, yes. What type of faith? That things will work out? That things will be okay? Simple logic.

Have simple logic and understand the things simply. And listen to your feeling. Listen to your feeling listen to your feeling your feeling it knows is it is simply sense making and that if you are letting it in your way of thinking then never lose track of whatever makes sense, which is feeling, which is instinct and intuition. Right, right. This is something I've been trying to work on a lot because it's easy for me at least to get trapped in my neocortex, to get trapped in the front of my brain where I can make pro and con lists. But the answer is so obvious sometimes because you know that something's wrong or you know that someone isn't a good fit or you don't trust someone. Just like you have that feeling like a dog where you immediately either like or dislike something. Yes.

I've been trying to train myself to go back to that simplicity. Making sense. It can be challenging. One or two more questions. If you could have one billboard, one huge sign anywhere with anything on it, what would it say and where would you put it? I would say, breathe, motherfucker. So you could put that on like a busy highway, you could put that on like Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles. Yeah, maybe breathe. So you could put that on like a busy highway, you could put that on like Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles. Yeah, maybe breathe.

I don't know the way they understand it, but it's really meant lovable. Right. It's really meant with strength. It is the answer to the up-to-the-DNA itself. And it's not me telling that anymore because of the blood results professors have confirmed that we are in the middle of dna and what is the trigger breathing so this is uh so you could you could have it say breathe breathe motherfucker within a smiley a smiley face like a smiley emoticon. That'd be perfect. Yes. We got a t-shirt. It says on the front, freeze. You know, it's about the cold. And the other side is breathe, motherfucker.

Well, you and I need to hang out more. This has been great. Of course, everybody listening, I'm going to put tons of links in the show notes. You should check out Iceman Wim Hof, W-I-M-H-O-F. Definitely check out Wim Hof Method, and I'll link to that in the show notes, which is a 10-week online video course, which a bunch of people whose names you would know are using right now. It's very, very interesting. And there are a bunch of documentaries and links to the textbooks I will include as well. Do you have any last requests or asks of my audience? There are a lot of people who will be hearing this. If you could ask them all to do something, besides check

out the courses and so on, what would you ask them all to do something, besides check out the courses and so on, what would you ask them to do? Something they could do when they hear this or after they hear it? Yeah, just pass on, breathe, that's one, and take a cold shower after a hot one. And just get into the science of this all. It is non-speculative. And for the rest, I just love you guys. Well, Wim, this is wonderful. Everybody listening, I will link to all these things. You can find Wim on Twitter at Iceman underscore Hoff, H-O-F. And I'll link to that.

Instagram, same Iceman underscore Hoff. Facebook is facebook.com forward slash becoming the Iceman. And Wim, thank you so much for taking the time. This was a blast. Thank you very much. I hear soulmates. I thank you very much. I love you very much.

Greetings to Ray Kronas. Definitely. If you talk to him, I will mail him also. He loves you and he loves your work. He loves my work. You know, we like to work to make love happen. Definitely. Well, we will

play some guitar and have some wine and you can... Oh, yeah. I would love to get into some shorts and freeze my ass off and breathe at some point. Right on. Right on. Up in the mountains. That would be great. So until next time, thank you everybody for listening. And Wim, thanks so much. Great. Thank you very much too.

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