The Tim Ferriss Show - #187: Jocko Willink on Discipline, Leadership, and Overcoming Doubt

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Starting point is 00:02:50 that you'd dig it a lot and you can, of course, easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Greetings, earthlings. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is always, or I should say usually my job to deconstruct world-class performers, to tease out the habits, routines, tools, favorite practices, workouts, books, whatever it might be that they use that you can test, that you can experiment with in your own life. And this episode is going to be a round two, highly anticipated with none other than Jocko Willink. And Jocko did his first interview with me, which was the first

Starting point is 00:03:41 interview he ever did. And it took the internet by storm. Jocko Willink at Jocko Willink on Twitter, Jocko podcast.com is one of the scariest human beings imaginable lean 230 pounds, black belt, Brazilian jujitsu used to tap out 20 Navy SEALs per workout. He is an intimidating and very intelligent person. I've spent more time with him. Uh, and the more time that I spend with him, the more impressive he is to me. He spent 20 years in the U S Navy and commanded seal team threes task unit bruiser, the most highly decorated special operations unit from the Iraq war. Upon returning to the U S Jocko served as the officer in charge of training for all West coast seal teams, designing and implementing some of the most challenging and realistic and perhaps psychotic combat training in the world. His words, not mine. After retiring from the Navy, he co-founded Echelon Front,

Starting point is 00:04:37 I think I'm getting the pronunciation right, a leadership and management consulting company, and authored the number one New York Times bestseller, which was introduced in a way on my podcast, Extreme Ownership, which many of you have read. He now discusses war, leadership, business, jujitsu, life, you name it, in his top rated podcast. Also does some really, really good book reviews or commentary on things that are dark in some cases, like the MyLightMasker. Jocko podcast, check it out. And without further ado, we are going to tackle, or I should say Jocko is going to tackle your most common, most burning questions and he doesn't dodge. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Jocko Willink. Hey, thanks, Tim. thanks for having me on appreciate it and

Starting point is 00:05:27 thanks to everybody that submitted questions I'm gonna try and get to as many as I can here all right the first one is from a guy by the name of Jeffrey McLeod and the question is how do you shut internal doubt down and negative chatter out of your head during critical must do moments? How do you change emotional negative focus states when something or someone knocks you off focus? First of all, internal doubt is not necessarily a bad thing. And I've said this before about fear of failure. Because internal doubt, first of all, that's a form of humility. And obviously, humility is a good thing. And that internal doubt and that fear of failure is the thing that keeps you up at night preparing. That's the thing that's not going to let you cut corners.

Starting point is 00:06:34 It's the thing, it's that little voice. That little voice inside your head that's whispering, rehearse again, practice again, do it again, over and over again. And that's the voice that says to do everything you can to be ready. So I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that little internal doubt. But this doesn't mean that you lack confidence. I mean, as a matter of fact, when you prepare correctly, when you have the discipline to prepare correctly, then you will have confidence.

Starting point is 00:07:18 And that is definitely a good feeling to have because all that negative chatter that you're talking about here, here's the deal with that. Every repetition of practice that you do, every iteration of rehearsal that you complete, every bit of study that you do and every drill that you do, all that preparation is going to drown out the negative chatter. So you got to prepare. Now, then we get to this piece here. It was how do you change emotional negative focus states when something or someone knocks you off focus? Well, I think this is where it's important to have that ability to

Starting point is 00:08:07 detach. And it isn't like you're going to completely detach and not feel those things at all. Not like you're going to make those emotions disappear. And it's not even like you'd want them to disappear completely because those things are normal. But what you have to do when you detach is it's going to allow you to see those emotions or that negative focus and see it from a distance and then understand that they are there and then make sure that they don't overwhelm you. And so like in your head, you're going to be saying, oh, okay, I see that. That's some nervousness sneaking up on me. Got it. That's a good sign because that means my mind is focused and I'm in the game. Okay. What's next? Oh, got some negative thoughts. Okay. Well, those are

Starting point is 00:09:02 normal. And I got to know that things are gonna go bad and that's fine How bad can they go? What's a worst-case scenario? Worst case scenario is not that big of a deal. I know I can handle the worst-case scenario if it happens. So what else? What else is in my mind? What else negative thought am I having? What about those things that you can't control? The things that you can't control and you're worried about those things. Well, you know what? I can't control them.

Starting point is 00:09:32 So if I can't control them, why worry about them? Because the energy that you put into worrying about them actually costs you your effectiveness. It's going gonna cut into the energy you should be putting towards achieving what you're trying to achieve so focus on the things that you can control and make the things that you can control 100% and and the bottom line with all this with these negative thoughts if if I give everything I, if I prepare as hard as I can, if I practice as much as I can, if I do have a rehearsal and I do everything I can and I still

Starting point is 00:10:11 come up short, good. I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to get better. So that's what I'm going to do with internal doubt. I'm okay with it. Negative chatter, I'm going to do with internal doubt. I'm okay with it. Negative chatter, I'm going to utilize it. And I'm just going to detach a little bit to make sure I don't get drowned out in these emotional situations. So, just get your head in the game and get after it. Done. Okay.

Starting point is 00:10:46 Next question. Next question comes from Will Gendron. And he says, How does his love and study of literature influences leadership skills. What were some of the best books for developing his knowledge of leadership? Okay. So the thing that I look for when I'm reading, and when I'm reading, that includes everything. Let's just talk about everything here. Books, history books, literature, even poetry, and even like song lyrics, everything.

Starting point is 00:11:27 I'm trying to learn about human nature that's what I'm looking for and of course since since combat is like life amplitude amplified and intensified which is something we say all the time a lot of times the books that are about war give some of the best insight into human nature you know you're talking about the stress and the fear and the courage and the breaking points and The darkness of Humanity and also the beauty of humanity. And all those can be seen in their most extreme and

Starting point is 00:12:13 in their most obvious form in war. And so a lot of books that I do read are about war and I have a ton of them. And again, they're not so much leadership books by definition. As a matter of fact, I don't even know if I have any quote-unquote leadership books. But I got a ton of books that have taught me a ton about leadership. and I said this when I was on Tim's podcast for the first time, About Face by Colonel David Hackworth. It's the only book I've ever actually given to anyone, and it's a big book. People that have bought it, people on Twitter that have gone out and bought that book, it's a 700-page book. It is a big book.

Starting point is 00:13:01 It spans from the tail end of World War two through Korea Vietnam And a little bit of post Vietnam, and it's a big book. It's a career military guy and Colonel Hackworth was Just just just an incredible leader And you don't just get from that from the book when you when you learn about Hackworth if you start digging in and hearing What other people's opinions are people loved him especially the people that worked for him loved him now obviously he had some trouble up the chain of command at certain points but that's that's part of being that's part of being a dynamic leader I guess

Starting point is 00:13:40 and he held his ground on some stuff so that book is just incredible book and it's got lessons learned on every page and you know I I cover most of the books that I've read that I've had a huge impact on me I'm covering on my podcast so books like like with the old breeded by Eugene Sledge and Beyond Band of Brothers by Dick Winters. I Remember the Last War by a guy named Bob Hoffman. Another book by Hackworth called Steal My Soldier's Heart. Book called Platoon Leader by Jim McDonough and another good one, another good Vietnam one, The Killing Zone by Frederick Downs. And those books, I mean, you could just go on and on.

Starting point is 00:14:38 And again, it's not always clear that, oh, here's the leadership principle. Here's what you should be doing. No, it's not always clear like that but when you when you understand what people are going through emotionally and you start to get a glimpse at human nature and how people react in certain situations and how their egos flare up that's what makes these books good because it gives you something to as it gives you a frame of reference. And I'm still reading all the time and I'm still learning, still trying to get better

Starting point is 00:15:07 and still trying to take what other people have been through, how they handled it, what they did right, what they did wrong, mistakes they made. That's what I'm trying to do. And actually,

Starting point is 00:15:19 I think that's actually one of the things that has made my podcast become popular is because I look at these other people's experiences and I compare them with mine and it's just, it's, it's always, I'm always learning. And I think that when you look at, I talk about the mistakes that I made and even, even the book that I wrote with Leif is, it certainly isn't any kind of a chronicling of our triumphs. I mean, if anything, it's the opposite in many cases

Starting point is 00:15:48 because much of the book is about mistakes that we made. And it's about things that we could have done better and lessons that we learned. And I think that's why that book, Extreme Ownership, is done well because it's something you can learn from. And I think people learn the most myself included when you fail so read and read and read some more and pay attention to in my mind pay pay attention to the details not again not not just the leadership, but the human element, the human interaction, the glimpses into the core of human nature. And the bigger bank you build of experiencing how humans react, the more you know.

Starting point is 00:16:49 And then you take that and you overlay the experiences you read about over what's happening in your world. And that's, I think, a key point is to actually think about how what you're reading applies to what's happening in your world. And then you start to pay attention to human nature in your world and see that there's some underlying Some underlying force that makes people do what they do and the better you can understand that force of human nature the better off you're gonna be and the Better job you're gonna do as a leader

Starting point is 00:17:20 So keep reading Next up I got a guy here named Kip McInerney. What would his advice be to young men and women who are no longer in the military but are still looking to contribute? Also, has he considered running for any public office position so if if you were in the military and you got out either you retired or you just did your time and you got out you know go out and put those skills that you got from the military put those skills to work. The discipline, the work ethic, the leadership, the ability to detach, the ability to instruct. And there are industries, I'm telling you, I work with businesses all the time now, and there are industries that need you. In fact, I will tell you that most industries need people like you, people like veterans. And so find an industry that you're interested in and go get busy and go get after it and make that your next mission. if there's no industries that interest you, which is kind of hard to believe

Starting point is 00:18:45 that you would have no interest, but if you don't, or if you're looking for something maybe that has more kind of internal meaning, then go out and find a really good nonprofit organization that needs help. Because again, they need the same thing. They need people, they need leaders.

Starting point is 00:18:59 They need people that are disciplined. They need people that can solve problems. They need people with the skills that you have, the skills that you learned in the military. So go and put those to work. And I will tell you that America as a whole needs leadership. And so there's no reason that veterans, like I said, who have a lot of those skills from being in the military and from being deployed overseas, there's no reason that veterans shouldn't make up a big portion of leaders in the civilian sector. So step up and get after it. I'll tell you one last thing about that is there's a lot of companies,

Starting point is 00:19:38 and again, I work with all kinds of different companies. All kinds of companies want to hire veterans. They recognize that their success is based on the freedoms that they have. So they want to pay back somehow. And so many, many companies are anxious and eager to hire veterans. So get out there, find what you're interested in, and make it happen. Now, the other part of this question, as far as running for political office, and I say this all the time, this is kind of a canned answer. I don't think I have the stomach for it. The corruption and the sliminess of the whole thing, not to mention just

Starting point is 00:20:22 the complete loss of privacy and the scheduling and the whole meeting of people that I don't like and having to be civil to them the whole thing it's it's like I said I don't I don't think I have the stomach for it and I mean I guess that perhaps at some point that feeling could be overridden. If things got bad enough, you know, I would definitely have a sense of duty. And I'm a very patriotic person. And if the nation truly needed me, then of course I would serve. But until that time, I'm going to go ahead and just steer clear of any political endeavors. Okay, the next question is from Adrian Marquez, and it says, any considerations regarding being a pawn of the, and he says, industrial-military conflicts, and maybe he means military-industrial complex. I'm not sure, but we'll go with it. the industrial military conflicts to serve the economic interests of US corporations?

Starting point is 00:21:45 Would he do it all over again? The next part of the question is, what's next? Make up another excuse, invade an African nation for resources. So, of course, when you are serving inS. military, you are serving, at least you should be serving, the interests of the United States of America. Absolutely. And embedded in those interests, there are absolutely the economic interests of American corporations. And obviously, the economic power of the United States is a key component of America's power and influence in the world. And so yeah, when you are a military member,

Starting point is 00:22:41 you could be considered a pawn in the military machine. But the fact of the matter is I am, I'm actually honored to have served as a so-called pawn, pawn in that system. And I will tell you this, and I've said this before, America is far from perfect, and we have committed some horrors in our history, and even today, we make mistakes in the world and you see how much of the rest of the world lives, how much they live in disarray, then you see the oppression and you see the poverty and you see the corruption and you see the abject violations of basic human rights. Then you realize how blessed or lucky or maybe even spoiled we are to live in America. And just to start, let's just start with potable tap water, drinking water. In America, we just have that here. We have it everywhere.

Starting point is 00:24:15 Any home, any apartment, even the prisons. You turn on the tap and you get good, clean, disease-free drinking water. And that is not the norm in the rest of the world. And on top of that, we have power. Got electricity going into just about every home. That means just about every home has heat in the wintertime and they have air conditioning in the summertime. And let's just take it a little bit further. What about the

Starting point is 00:24:45 access to the internet? The access to the internet here is widespread. There's like something like 70% of the adults in America have a smartphone. 70%. So 70%. So you can gain access to knowledge here, unlike any other time in human history. And our healthcare system, I know it's not perfect, but I'll tell you what, if you view our healthcare system from a third world hospital,

Starting point is 00:25:23 which often don't even have the simplest of medical gear You'd realize it might not be perfect, but it's pretty damn good And then beyond that it's just but like let's look at the food that's available never mind starvation and malnutrition Our issue in America is actually too much food. And much of the world still has people literally starving to death. And America offers an amazing opportunity to build and to create and to be what you want to be and to be what you want to be. And to be who you want to be.

Starting point is 00:26:06 Unlike anywhere else in the world. The ability to pursue happiness. Happiness. And all those things. All of it. Is possible. Because of the unbridled individual freedom that America offers. And you know what else? It's also possible because of industry.

Starting point is 00:26:39 Because of the incredible corporations and businesses and individuals. Because of the incredible corporations and businesses and individuals. Because of people. That took advantage of that freedom and worked their asses off to build this nation. So. To have been a pawn. In that. pawn in that To have done my small share of work to allow this Beacon of light and of hope and of freedom to continue I'm I'm honored that I had the chance and would I do it all again?

Starting point is 00:27:27 You're damn right right I would without question and then there's another piece to this question from mr. Marquez it says what's next make up another Invade an African country or an African nation for resources. Well, luckily, we have plenty of resources in our own nation. And luckily for the rest of the world, we have used those resources over and over and over again, not to take, but to give. To give freedom to the slaves in our own country, to defeat and destroy the brutal Nazi regime in Germany and free the people of France and much of Europe. We used our resources to defeat Imperial Japan, who was rampaging through Asia, invading and enslaving people with no sign of stopping. We used our resources to try and stop the spread of communism in Asia. And remember that when I'm talking about resources, I'm not just talking about oil and steel and wood. I'm talking about blood.

Starting point is 00:28:53 I'm talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of American men and women that gave their lives in the cause of freedom. And what resources did we take when we paid with our blood? We took nothing. We took no resources from the Germans. We helped them rebuild into an economic superpower. We took no resources from the Japanese. We helped them rebuild into an economic superpower. The Japanese and the Germans both have some of the highest standards of living in the world.

Starting point is 00:29:43 We took nothing from Korea or Vietnam and we took nothing from Afghanistan and even Iraq we took nothing and we only gave and we continue to give in 2014 the US government gave $43 billion in foreign aid. And then there was another $25 billion on top of that from America, from religious organizations and universities and colleges and private voluntary organizations and even the big American corporations. Now, like I said, that doesn't mean that America's perfect. Far from it. Far from it.

Starting point is 00:30:41 And our past is checkered with horrible mistakes that we've made as a nation We've caused massive hardships and incredible suffering But we also evolved And We have become a Benevolent, a good nation. And I know this because I saw it with my own two eyes.

Starting point is 00:31:21 I saw the people of Iraq who wanted freedom from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, who then wanted protection from the violent terrorist extremists who cheered us in the streets when we killed insurgents and who wept when we left them and unfortunately who were murdered when we abandoned them because the politics in our own country they wanted us in Iraq the people of Iraq the normal citizens they wanted our protection and they wanted our positivity and they wanted freedom like much of the world does and I was honored to have done my small part To provide the opportunity for freedom around the world

Starting point is 00:32:14 And to protect that precious freedom Which is all too often taken for granted Here at home. Now, the next question. The next question is from someone named Don Ryan and he says what's the hardest thing you've ever gone through and what do you foresee as the toughest thing on the horizon you'll endure well the hardest thing I've ever gone through Is losing my men in combat

Starting point is 00:33:08 And I say My men But they weren't my men They were my friends And they were my friends and they were my brothers and barring the loss of any members of my direct family I don't think I'll ever have to endure anything as soul crushing and devastating

Starting point is 00:33:43 as losing my friends in combat. Next question. This is from Nathan low what advice would you give an active-duty Navy SEAL or other military personnel following the election if Hillary is elected or if Trump is elected well the fact of the matter is either Hillary or Trump will be elected and the seals just like the rest of the military will do what the military always does and what they are sworn to do and if you don't know what that is I wrote down here the oath of enlistment and I'll read it to you so you know what it's

Starting point is 00:34:44 what it says it says I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me according to the regulations and the uniform code of military justice. So help me God. So that's the oath that you swear to when you join the military. You're going to obey those orders. Now, there is a little bit of a caveat.

Starting point is 00:35:23 And that is in the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 92, because it gets a little bit more specific. The article is entitled Failure to Obey Order or Regulation. Any person subject to this chapter who, number one, violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation. Two, having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order, or is derelict in the performance of his duties, shall be punished as court-martial may direct. So, the key word there is lawful

Starting point is 00:36:06 order and they made this perfectly clear during the Nuremberg trials when the Nazi war criminals claimed that they were just following orders well in America that doesn't cut it they have to be lawful orders. So regardless if Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Obama, Bush, Nixon, JFK or Reagan, it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:36:36 The military will carry out the lawful orders of the president and that's that. Next question is from AJ Nystrom he says Jocko in your book you speak about leadership down and up the chain of command what in your opinion and experience is the most effective way to get leadership up the chain to wake up and break the cycle of rubber stamping ineffective practices, especially in law enforcement. So this is a big question and I'll tell you first things first.

Starting point is 00:37:15 The first thing you have to do is be awesome. That's what you got to do. Seriously. You got to be the best police officer you can be. And this goes for any job. You got to build the best possible reputation. And that means you got to be the best police officer you can be. And this goes for any job. You got to build the best possible reputation. And that means you got to follow the rules. Even the stupid inconsequential rules, all of them.

Starting point is 00:37:36 Become the front runner, the top dog. Now, that doesn't mean you become the loud mouth or the attention grabber. But you become the best legit or the attention grabber, but you become the best legit police officer you can possibly be. And not only is this going to build your reputation, it's also going to start to build your relationships up the chain of command. And that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to build some relationships here. And the reason for that is you need to build up the capital, the leadership capital, the respect capital, so that you can ask some legitimate questions. And when the time comes,

Starting point is 00:38:16 you go and you ask those questions. Actually, I shouldn't say ask questions, because that gives them a setup to provide you with the answers. And you already know the answers and you don't agree with them. So instead of asking questions, you take the reputation that you built as a badass and you raise points. And when you raise points, you have solutions. And you have solutions that you've already socialized with the team, that you've already maybe even tested or you've at least tried. In other words, these are solutions that you know are going to work.

Starting point is 00:38:56 And also, pick your battles. Pick your battles. You're going to have to eat some stupid stuff. You're going to do some lame things. But you've got to got to pick your battles you're not gonna be able to change everything so you got to pick the most impactful issues to deal with and the other ones just you support those and you follow those like a good soldier because that gives you more capital when you do raise issues. And here's the other piece. When you raise issues up the chain of command, and this is a piece that people mess this up all

Starting point is 00:39:32 the time. When you raise these points up the chain of command, and when you give the solutions, you have to do it from a point of humility you can't be looking for the credit you can't be looking for the attaboy you got to come across and you've got it not just come across you've got to actually be the humble person putting forth some suggestions on how to do things better and I'll tell you that the absolute black belt move is when you get them to think that it's their idea and that they came up with it and that they've made up that solution that's the ultimate black belt move that's what you're looking to achieve and that is how you win and that is what you're looking to achieve.

Starting point is 00:40:26 And that is how you win. And that is what I did with my career. I worked as hard as I could. I followed everything they told me. But when something stood out, I was able to attack it, address it, and get the problem solved or changed because I had built up that capital. So build your reputation, build your relationships,

Starting point is 00:40:43 build and vet your idea and your solution, and then present it with humility. Next question is from a guy named Jonathan Mule. How would his lifestyle of extreme discipline translate to someone living a seemingly unrelated life? Artists, writers, etc. who might find more productivity in pockets of leisure or late at night Now, I would argue that in these creative pursuits, you actually require even more discipline. And I would venture to guess that the biggest reason that creative types, people in creative industries, the reason that they don't produce isn't because they don't have vision and it's not because they don't have talent.

Starting point is 00:41:41 I can just about guarantee that in most cases it's a lack of discipline I I'm always saying about about working out I'm always saying that the weights in the gym aren't gonna lift themselves you got to go lift them well it's the same thing with a book that book isn isn't going to write itself. You got to write it. And the painting isn't going to paint itself. You got to paint it. And if you don't feel like writing or drawing or painting or composing, that doesn't matter. You do it anyways. You grit down and you force the words onto the paper or you force the brush onto the paper or you force the notes out of the instrument. That's what you have to do. You have to make it happen. You have to force yourself to do it. And it's not always going to be good. And you might go back, you might write a thousand words,

Starting point is 00:42:47 and you might delete 950 of them. But you got 50 words, 50 words that you didn't have before, 50 words that you've created that are solid, 50 words closer to reaching your goal. Now, as far as the time of day goes, to me it doesn't matter. If you have some kind of time of day where things seem to flow better or whatever, great. Take advantage of it. I think people think because I wake up early, which I do, that I believe that everyone must do that. But honestly, it's not true. It's the principle. It's about the principle, not about the specific time. And I got to throw a big but on that. Because although you can maybe work at different times or maybe you stay up later or

Starting point is 00:43:47 maybe do better work at two o'clock in the morning or three o'clock in the morning and so there's no way you're getting up at 4.30, that's okay. But that doesn't mean oversleep and it doesn't mean procrastinate and it doesn't mean hit the snooze button and it doesn't mean staying up late diving into the depths of useless YouTube videos and claim that that is you being creative. Do not lie to yourself. There's a decent chance that being creative is actually being lazy in your mind. Do not fall into that trap and I'll tell you something else in order to gain skills in order to master your craft any craft you have to practice you have to practice and practice and practice over and over and over again and again and that requires discipline

Starting point is 00:44:45 that requires discipline and that is another example of how discipline will equal freedom the more you practice your craft the better you get at it the more freedom you have to create so build the structure and follow it put the discipline into your life and the discipline it will increase your skills and it will increase your productivity and the discipline will it'll set you free. Now, going on to the next question here. Will the muster event,

Starting point is 00:45:35 oh sorry, this is from Marco Lopez. Marco Lopez. Will the muster event be a once a year thing only? After working with and training so many different companies, are there any repeating patterns or common weaknesses that business owners seem to need to work on and It also says will you please encourage Jocko to do another Joe Rogan podcast So right on Joe Joe knows I'm standing by we'll make it happen at some point. Yeah great to be on his show We're just we're just now getting around to round two, two with, with Tim. So maybe Joe's

Starting point is 00:46:11 around the corner. So we'll, we'll have to wait and see on that one. All right. To get to the question here, for those of you don't know, the extreme ownership muster is a leadership event that we're having in, in San Diego, California. I'm doing it with my business partner, the co-author of the book, Extreme Ownership, Leif Babin, who's a SEAL that I worked with for many years, and my brother. And we're holding this thing in San Diego, California on October 20th and 21st. And what the event is, it's going to be about combat leadership. That's what it's going to be about. It's going to be about combat leadership. That's what it's going to be about. It's going to be about combat leadership, and we're going to teach the fundamental principles of combat leadership

Starting point is 00:46:50 and how to apply them on the battlefield, in business, and in life. All three. And you're going to see when you come, you're going to see how all three of the applications are the same. These fundamental combat leadership principles, they don't change, regardless of whether you're out hunting down bad guys or whether you're hunting for a sale. They don't change. And the response to the event has been awesome. And we got a ton of people coming to it, which likely means it looks like

Starting point is 00:47:26 we're going to do another event. Possibly, we got to carve the time out of the schedule, but it looks like possibly the spring of 2017 likely going to be somewhere on the East Coast. If it's going to be somewhere on the East Coast, there's probably a pretty good chance we'll be looking at New York City. Not set in stone that we're going to do it. Not set in stone when we're going to do it.

Starting point is 00:47:48 We might wait another year. I don't know yet. It's just up in the air. We have so much stuff on our plates right now that we've got to figure out if we can fit it in. But if we do it again, maybe we'll head out to the East Coast and New York City, get some. Now, the next part of this question is, are there any repeating patterns or common weaknesses that business owners need to work on? And the answer is yes, absolutely, there are. And we see the same issues from company to company and from leader to leader. And the same issues that we see in the civilian sector are the same issues that we saw while we were working with SEAL platoons and training SEAL platoons. And the core problems that we see are what we wrote about in the book, Extreme Ownership. That's one of the reasons we wrote the book was

Starting point is 00:48:34 because when we'd work with these companies, people would say, do you have this stuff written down anywhere? And eventually we wrote it down. Now, what are some of those issues that we run into? I mean, you got departments and divisions that aren't working together to cover a move. You got communications not being made in a simple, clear, concise manner. You got either too much micromanagement, which leaves the troops to take no initiative, or you've got not enough guidance, and the troops now don't know which direction to head into. Or you get a company that's trying to take on too many projects or too many initiatives at the same time. And they don't prioritize and execute. So they end up getting none of them done.

Starting point is 00:49:14 And then obviously the most impactful one is when you have leaders and team members taking ownership real ownership extreme ownership of everything in the world to make sure that problems get uncovered and owned and resolved because if leaders and and members of the team if they don't take ownership of the problems, then guess who solves the problems? Nobody. So these are all, again, these are fundamental problems that I saw when I was training SEAL platoons. And it's the same thing I see now. And it's the same solutions that we apply to these same problems. Learning the tactics, the fundamental tactics of leadership is what we get down to. And we'll see you at the muster. All right.

Starting point is 00:50:17 Next. This next question is from Damian Hudson. What does Jocko struggle with? Or maybe better to say, what is he at work on? He comes across bulletproof and just pushes through on everything. weaknesses and putting structures in place to resolve correct improve Would like to know his approach for his personal challenges. Well, first of all, I can assure you That I am far from bulletproof and When you ask what I struggle with I struggle with everything. I'm I'm not naturally gifted at Pretty much anything. I'm not naturally strong. I'm not naturally gifted at pretty much anything. I'm not naturally strong.

Starting point is 00:51:06 I'm not naturally fast. I'm certainly not the sharpest tool in the shed. And so I constantly have to work on my weaknesses. And if you want to know what my weaknesses are, we don't have enough time on the podcast to list all my weaknesses. I mean, that's the way it is. Now, as far as my method for identifying weaknesses, it's pretty simple. I'm constantly doing a self-assessment and detaching and looking at what I'm doing and what I can do better.

Starting point is 00:51:37 And I ask people that are close to me, people that I trust, ask them if they have any feedback for me. Ask them if there's anything I could do better or where I can improve so that's pretty simple do a self-assessment ask other people and find out what your weaknesses are what you could do better and then the next part of the question is what do I do to put structures in place to resolve correct and improve well I I just attack those problems. Weakness identified? Roger. Attack the weakness. Problem identified? Roger. Attack the problem. And I'll tell you, I'm not a guy that spends a bunch of time overanalyzing or overplanning or diving deep into meditation on how I'm going to attack a problem. I simply attack the problem. Now, that doesn't mean that I blindly attack and it doesn't mean that I hold a course

Starting point is 00:52:31 without checking on my progress. As I attack a problem, I'm going to continually assess and make sure that I'm on the right course, that I'm headed in the right direction and making sure that it's the most efficient path. And I will absolutely change course if I see something I can do better. And because I have that kind of attitude, it allows me to move quickly to execute and then initiate change and alter the course as I go if it's needed and it's the same attitude that I had when I was in The SEAL teams I could be very decisive very quickly because the decisions themselves did not close my mind The decisions did not close my mind I would make a decision and I would continue to reassess and readjust as needed but also as We moved forward towards a solution so you got a problem step one identify the problem step two attack it step three

Starting point is 00:53:35 reassess and adjust and keep attacking get that thing solved next question is from Chris Bell how to stay motivated when every day is a struggle to accomplish goals well I can tell you very easily this is this isn't about motivation and accomplishing your goals is not about motivation it'sishing your goals is not about motivation. It's about discipline I already talked about that once today and I'll say it again I probably talked about it more than once talked about it a bunch. I talk about it all the time. It is about discipline motivation is fickle

Starting point is 00:54:17 Motivation comes and go I mean you think about motivation you you assume something as simply as being hungry can sap your motivation, right? That's ridiculous. You can't rely on that. You have, oh, my blood sugar went down. I'm not motivated anymore. Oh, I didn't get enough caffeine. I'm not motivated. No, wrong answer. Motivation is unreliable. And when you're counting on motivation to get your goals accomplished, you're likely going to fall short. So don't count on motivation. Count on discipline. You know what you have to do. Go make yourself do it. Make yourself do it. Everybody wants some kind of magic pill or some life hack or something that eliminates the need to do the work. Well, I will tell you what

Starting point is 00:55:07 you need to do the work. You got to hold the line. You got to make it happen yourself. You have to make it happen. It's not going to happen on its own. You have to make it happen so dig in find the discipline be the discipline and accomplish the goals period that's it and our next question is from Austin Farley. And he said, best advice to today's active duty force, regardless of branch, about career oversight, deployments, differences between all service members. Okay, so the basic question is best advice. Well, the advice, besides be aggressive and stay safe, that's my number one. Uh, I would tell you for me, the biggest component for, for success in the military, in my opinion, is to do a great job

Starting point is 00:56:13 in whatever you're doing. And I know that sounds pretty obvious, but I'll tell you, I saw a lot of guys over the years who were always looking for the next ticket to punch or the next good deal or the next job that they had to get to take to make a promotion or whatever. And for me, for the most part, I just took what they gave me and I did the best I could at it. And I'll tell you, not only did this keep the Navy happy because the Navy, you know, they had a trooper that was just getting after it. It also kept me happy because I wasn't sweating the promotion or the evaluations or any of the political stuff I was just I was just

Starting point is 00:56:51 getting after it to the best of my ability and if you do that I'll I in my opinion if you do that your career will take care of itself you'll get the good jobs because people would want you in those good jobs. And the other thing I would say is this. A big piece of being in the military is a gut check. It's hard work. It's either too hot or too cold. It's not enough food. It's not enough sleep. It's not enough water. It's hurry up and wait. It's plan for months to do nothing and then don't plan at

Starting point is 00:57:36 all to do something for months. And on top of all that, you throw the politics and the egos and the bureaucracy and when you mix all that together it can be pretty miserable but I will tell you this all that misery relish it relish every moment of it because those hard things those rough things those are a part of the experience of the military and its experiences like that i promise you will for for some twisted reason you will miss them when you leave. So don't hate them. Don't avoid them. Dive into them and kick them in the ass with a smile on your face. Because another thing is that smile is contagious.

Starting point is 00:58:35 And you'll elevate the morale of your whole unit when you wear that smile. So have fun and kick ass at what you're doing and for those of you out there on the front lines like I said be aggressive the best way to mitigate risk on the battlefield is to be aggressive do not be reactive step up and get after it and by the way to all you active-duty folks thank you for what you're doing and for the vets that are listening thank you for what you did next up I got a question from Paul Wetkick. And it says, unfortunately, this is to Tim, I guess. Unfortunately, you, Rogan, and Harris all pussyfooted around him.

Starting point is 00:59:34 I realize he's probably an intimidating presence, but ask him how he feels about killing people, especially possibly innocents. And don't let him use the doing my job, bad guys, collateral damage narratives. Ask him how he feels about it. He's intelligent enough to cope with being pressed for an authentic answer. So Paul wants to know about killing people and possibly killing innocent people and what that's how I feel about that so first of all the nature of war is is killing that is what war is and of course there's all kinds of other components to war there's economic and cultural and diplomatic and strategic but at its fundamental core war is about death and war is about killing.

Starting point is 01:00:46 And in the question here, I'm told I'm not allowed to use the narrative of doing my job, but there's a reason why that narrative exists. Because death and killing actually is the job of a soldier. And we train for that job. And when the time comes comes we do our job and we are good with it now part of that comes from the training and part of that also comes from the dehumanization of the enemy. Yes, that is a true statement. The enemy becomes dehumanized to the soldier.

Starting point is 01:01:40 That's one of the reasons why soldiers are generally okay with it. And in the past, the military had to help that process along they had to help the soldier dehumanize the enemy and it still does do that to some extent but I think in the wars that we are in now we don't need any help dehumanizing the enemy the enemy dehumanizes himself you see we in the military we witness what they do we see what they do we see the results of the torture and the rape and the murder We see families beheaded we see people skinned alive We see young people kids Kids Forced to carry out suicide bombings Kids. Kids.

Starting point is 01:02:48 Forced to carry out suicide bombings. And now, with the internet in action, the whole world can see the completely despicable and brutal behavior of these subhuman savages. Burning people alive, throwing people from buildings, drowning people in cages, 10-year-old sex slaves. It's absolutely disgusting and abhorrent. And I will tell you that I have no problem whatsoever killing all these vile creatures, all of them. Now, you also ask about killing innocents,

Starting point is 01:03:50 killing innocent people and as I already stated the nature of war is death and in war innocent people sometimes are killed then you you want to know how I feel about it? Well, it is horrible. It is horrible. It is awful when it does occur. And yes, it does occur. And let me tell you that America

Starting point is 01:04:22 goes through great lengths, extreme lengths, and in doing so incurs incredible risk to prevent killing innocent people on the battlefield. When I fought with the 11AD in the Battle of Ramadi in 2006, the entire strategy, the entire strategy was developed to minimize not only the killing of innocent people But also to minimize the amount of infrastructure that was destroyed

Starting point is 01:04:52 So the buildings and the power and the water all that and again American troops took incredible risks incredible risks to mitigate The risks of civilians. But war is messy. War is confusing. War is imperfect. War is hell. And despite all the efforts that we make, despite all the good intentions and the precautions and the planning, sometimes innocent people are killed and it's horrible. And it's horrible for the family of the slain and it's horrible for the military man that pulled the trigger or dropped the bomb or threw their grenade. It's horrible for the mission Because in places like Iraq and Afghanistan we are there to protect the local populace

Starting point is 01:05:52 So it takes us backwards strategically as we try to win the hearts and minds of the people But you know what It doesn't defeat us, it doesn't beat us, and it doesn't even turn the local populace against us, and I'm speaking now from my experience in the Battle of Ramadi, and let it be perfectly clear that the local population in Ramadi absolutely wanted us there. They wanted us on the ground in their neighborhoods. They wanted us to help them get rid of the insurgents that were terrorizing them, literally terrorizing them. And when innocent people were killed for whatever reason we apologized

Starting point is 01:06:49 And we did what we could to help and we met and we broke bread and we explained what had gone wrong And we asked what we could do to help and we paid them money and we helped them repair their buildings We did whatever we could. And I will tell you, and this never gets represented in the press, but most of the time, the local populace, they understood. They understood it was a war. They understood it was a war against evil and they understood that that meant violence. And they understood that in our efforts to help them get rid of the cancer that ravaged their city. Well, they understood that there would be bloodshed in removing that cancer.

Starting point is 01:07:55 War is hell. It is best to be avoided at all costs so that innocent lives are not lost but sometimes war cannot be avoided and sometimes war should not be avoided sometimes in order to protect the innocence war is the only choice and I am thankful that there are men and women in the military that have the courage and the strength and the moral fortitude to stand up and face evil and to also withstand the awful burden of killing and of death now I think this is Last question here. This question came from Andy Vasley. It says, what are the biggest lessons learned from jujitsu that transcend the art of fighting itself and can be applied to being an effective leader so I'm a practitioner of jiu-jitsu and it is a that's pretty incredible it's a pretty incredible thing to train and for those either trained jiu-jitsu you know what I'm talking about for those either

Starting point is 01:09:43 don't train jiu-jitsu go train jiu-jitsu, you know what I'm talking about. For those of you that don't train jujitsu, go train jujitsu. Because there's so much to be learned from jujitsu about leadership and about life. I mean, for instance, I talked about discipline a lot today. In jujitsu, you're going to learn about discipline because it takes discipline to get on the mat day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. And you won't always feel like training. As fun as jujitsu is, there's going to be days you don't feel like training, but you have to find the discipline and you have to do it. So you're going to learn about discipline in jujitsu.

Starting point is 01:10:21 You're also going to learn about humility. Because in jujitsuitsu you will get humbled you will get beat by people that are smaller than you and weaker than you and they will smash you they will literally submit you and that is humbling and there is no escaping it. And those are very important. Because, like I said, I've said this before, is that those are lessons that some traditional martial arts would try and teach you almost as theoretical lessons. You know, like you must be disciplined. They'll tell you that in theory.

Starting point is 01:11:05 But in Jiu-Jitsu, like I said without without discipline. There's no there's no progress And in a traditional martial art, they'll say oh, you know, you must be humble Like I said in jiu-jitsu you actually get humbled so jiu-jitsu teaches you a lot about life and That's one of the things that make it's it's so powerful and it has the question back to the question was what does it teach you about leadership it absolutely teaches you some key things about leadership and i'll give you a couple of the most important elements first of all detachment and i've mentioned this word a couple times today in jujitsu i'll tell you right now if you let yourself self start to get frustrated or you let yourself start to get angry or

Starting point is 01:11:50 Just emotional in general you will start to make bad decisions And when you start to make bad decisions, that is the beginning of the end So you have to be able to detach from that emotion that frustration and you got to focus on doing the right thing at the right time, it's absolutely necessary and And that's the same thing in a combat leadership position or in any leadership situation. You cannot get caught up in All the chaos and all the mayhem you can't let your emotions get a hold of you.

Starting point is 01:12:27 So you have to be able to detach from that. You have to be able to step back and breathe and see the full picture of what is happening without the cloud of emotion and all that mayhem obscuring your vision so that you can make good decisions. And Jiu-Jitsu will teach you to do that. Now, another piece of jujitsu that transfers directly into leadership is the idea of indirect warfare, right? So in jujitsu, the whole premise is to attack the

Starting point is 01:13:04 weaknesses of your opponent. You don't wantjitsu, the whole premise is to attack the weaknesses of your opponent. You don't want to attack their strengths. You want to attack, I mean, just fundamentally, you attack the weak areas of their body, like the joints or the neck. You're not attacking the strongest parts of their body. And if you attack where your opponent is strong, so if you have an opponent that's very good at defending one type of, one position or one type of hold, you're just going to wear yourself out if you're attacking that. Eventually you're going to run out of energy and then they're going to get the advantage.

Starting point is 01:13:35 So you can't just attack the strengths. You have to attack the weak points in Jiu Jitsu. Now on top of that, you also have to distract your opponent. And you have to make them defend some area. So you might maybe attack one area so that they put their defenses there, but it's just a feint. Because what you're really going to do is you're going to go and attack an area where they're not defending. You're going to attack their weak areas. And it's the same thing with leadership. And the clearest example of where this is directly

Starting point is 01:14:08 seen in leadership is when you're dealing with people's egos. So you take a person that has a big, strong ego, you don't attack that ego head on. That will just make that person get ultra defensive, right? If you attack their ego, they're going person get ultra defensive. If you attack their ego, they're going to get defensive immediately. Now you've built up, now you're going to have an even harder fight. So what you do is you bypass their ego.

Starting point is 01:14:34 Maybe you even massage their ego a little bit so that they let down their guard, so that they let you into their head a little bit and then tactically and quietly, you sneak in and you plant the seeds of what you're trying to get them to do, of where you're trying to lead them. And soon enough,

Starting point is 01:14:58 without seeing it, those seeds are going to grow, and your idea and your plan and your leadership comes to fruition and that is indirect warfare and it's the same thing in jujitsu it's the same thing in business and it's actually the same thing on the battlefield as well we don't attack enemy strengths unless it cannot be avoided so take up that jujitsu start training and apply those lessons across the board in your life and i think that's i think that's it for questions for now uh thanks to everybody for listening and thanks of course to mr mr tim ferris for having me on. Tim has been, for those of you who don't know,

Starting point is 01:15:45 he's been a huge supporter since I met him. And I really appreciate, Tim, everything you've done for me. And everything that's kind of stemmed from that has been awesome. The interaction from everybody through social media and Twitter and Facebook and all that, and everyone that's listening and giving me feedback on the podcast that I have in the book, uh, that, that I wrote with my buddy Leif. And it's just awesome to connect with so many people. And it's awesome to know that there's so many people that are in the game. So many people that want to get after it, just like me looking to get better, looking to do better, looking to be better. So thanks to everybody for everything. And like I said, especially thanks to Tim for kicking this whole thing off.

Starting point is 01:16:40 So until next time, this is Jocko. Out. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides

Starting point is 01:16:57 a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.

Starting point is 01:17:31 So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set it and forget it investing service led by technologists from places like Apple and world famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years, and they now have more than two and a half billion dollars under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is why? Why is it so popular? Why is it unique?

Starting point is 01:18:13 Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy, but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, etc. And I'll come back to that in a second. I suggest you check out wealthfront.com forward slash Tim, take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or as I would, you can set it and forget it.

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Starting point is 01:19:51 So I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account. But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at wealthfront.com forward slash

Starting point is 01:20:19 Tim. It's fast, it's free. There's no downside that I can think of. This episode is brought to you by Headspace. More than 80% of the people I have interviewed, world-class performers across the military, entertainment, sports, and beyond, all have some type of meditative practice. I tried for years and years and failed miserably. The key is making it simple. And you can dramatically improve your life in just 10 minutes a day and technology can help you.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #187: Jocko Willink on Discipline, Leadership, and Overcoming Doubt

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #187: Jocko Willink on Discipline, Leadership, and Overcoming Doubt

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