The Tim Ferriss Show - #234: Marie Kondo -- The Japanese Tidying Master

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Starting point is 00:03:13 This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. That little hisashiburi janeka, which is long time no see, basically, in Japanese is a taste of things to come. I'm so excited about this episode. Every episode, I'm excited, and it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, whether they're big wave surfers, retired Navy SEAL commanders, chess prodigies, entertainers, or otherwise. This particular episode is a first for me, meaning it is an interpreted episode. So we have Japanese featured. It was recorded in Tokyo where I got to meet Marie Kondo, who is sometimes referred to as Mary Kondo. So you can

Starting point is 00:03:55 think of her that way if you'd like, but it is actually pronounced Marie Kondo. And here's a quote just to give you some flavor, a taste of things to come. Quote, you could say that tidying orders the mind while cleaning purifies it. That is from Maria. She is a Japanese organizing consultant, author, and entrepreneur, also known as KonMari. And you can find her on Twitter and elsewhere at Marie Kondo. That's M-A-R-I-E-K-O-N-D-O. You probably know her because of a book. The book is The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, the Japanese art of decluttering and organizing, which has sold a gazillion copies. It has become a movement. She developed this particular method of organizing, which is known as the Konmari method, which you can see is an inversion of her name, which consists of gathering together everything you own one category at a

Starting point is 00:04:49 time, and then keeping only those things that quote, spark joy, end quote. And we actually talk about how that is translated in Japanese. And I had a blast with this, as well as choosing dedicated places to store them, etc. But it goes far beyond just tidying how to. Her method is really a way of life and a state of mind. And I observed this in person. I've spent some time with her since. She has the most calming voice imaginable, which is why I play a decent amount of her speaking Japanese in this. And for those long-term listeners, you know that I lived in Japan in high school. I love Japan and Japanese. We were very, very lucky to have Jun Greminger, who works with Madia, to fill in.

Starting point is 00:05:32 Last minute, we had an interpreter cancellation of sorts, logistical snafu. Jun slipped in very seamlessly to help with everything. Thank you, June. Maria has captured, as I mentioned, the findings of her various clientele and all of her different organizational approaches and philosophies in her mega bestselling books, the first of which I mentioned, The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up,

Starting point is 00:05:57 and its follow-up, Spark Joy, subtitle, An Illustrated Masterclass on the Art of Organ and tidying up. I need to organize my brain. Her books have sold more than 7 million copies and have been published in more than 40 countries. Now, Kondo goes way beyond just author in Japan. Her methods have become so famous that her last name has become a verb, Kondo-ing, and people who share her specific values worldwide are referred

Starting point is 00:06:26 to and refer to themselves as converts with a K. She's been named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People. She's also the founder and chief visionary officer of KonMari Media Incorporated, KMI, which is a US-based startup with the mission to organize the world by combining the power of technology and a network of converts with a K, which is exploding, as well as partner organizations. And KMI has recently launched a KonMari consultant training program and certification process. They are doing tons and tons of stuff. So this episode is an experiment. I had a blast with it. Maria is as lovely, 10 times lovelier than you would hope in your wildest dreams.

Starting point is 00:07:09 Really just one of the most calming, fascinating people I've met in a long time. We dig into Shintoism. We dig into her upbringing. We dig into specific nitty gritty details of her method. We talk about how it applies elsewhere. We talk about morning routines. We talk about all it applies elsewhere. We talk about morning routines. We talk about all sorts of stuff. So without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging and very experimental conversation with Marie Kondo, the Japanese tidying master.

Starting point is 00:07:39 Marie-san, welcome to the show. Hi, konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. So there's so many things I want to ask you because I've read your books and I am a huge fan of Japan. So thank you for making the time. Hi, kochira koso tete mo ureshii desu. Owaidehite. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to meet you as well. So I think we should start at the beginning and that is your childhood. So could you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and how you grew up? I was born and raised in Japan. Which part of Tokyo?

Starting point is 00:08:14 Do you know Koutoku? Yes, there are 23 districts in Tokyo, but I was brought up in Koutoku, the Koutoku ward, a small ward in Tokyo. And did she have brothers or sisters? What did her parents do? My brother had a brother up there and a sister down there. My father was a doctor, and my mother was a housewife. 妹が一人の三人兄弟です。父は医者ですね。母は専業主婦です。 I had an older brother and a younger sister. My dad was a doctor and my mom was a homemaker. What type of medicine did her dad practice?

Starting point is 00:08:56 内科の医者です。 Internal doctor? Internist, probably. Internist, okay. What characterized her childhood? Would she say she was a happy child, a very obsessive child? How would she describe her younger self? I didn't stand out much. So since I was a little kid, I loved organizing.

Starting point is 00:09:33 When I was five, I started reading magazines that had to do with homes and organizing. So I heard that she also would take recess time at school and organize books in the classroom and do that type of thing why why did she have that interest soですね片付けに興味を持ったきっかけとしてはあのもういくつかあるんですが一つは私の母が専業主婦なんですが母親がすごく楽しそうに家事をしているというのが印象的だったんです there are a couple of reasons why I was interested in this since I was young. First of all, my mom was a homemaker, and she looked so happy doing things around the house. 本当にこの専業主婦という仕事はすごく素晴らしくて、私が家をきれいに整えていい状態にしておくことによって、父が元気に働きにできたりとか、子どもたちが健康で育っていく。これは素晴らしい仕事なんだということを言ってくれていたんです。 I can create an organized and clean home, and that way my dad would be able to work and my kids would be able to stay healthy. My mom loved doing chores, but she wasn't necessarily perfect at it. My home wasn't that disorganized, but it wasn't necessarily super neat either. There were a lot of things in storage. So it sounds like her mom was a very good

Starting point is 00:11:25 homemaker, but didn't specialize in the tidying up aspect of things. At what point did she become, I read somewhere that she was an attendant maiden. I don't know what that translates to exactly, but at a Shinto shrine. And I'm really interested in talking about that. So could you maybe tell the story, if that's accurate, of how she became involved with a Shinto shrine? And just to maybe help describe the experience, because a lot of my fans have asked to hear more about maybe that Shinto influence,

Starting point is 00:12:04 because they see some of that influence in her recommendations.神道っていう言葉に関して私は皆さんが興味を持ってくださるよりももっと身近にあってすごく自然なイメージなんですね私がどうしてそこの神社で働いていたことがあったかっていうとそれ自体はたまたま美子さんの募集というかお仕事のアルバイトの募集の広告を見たことがきっかけでなんとなくやってみようっていうくらいの

Starting point is 00:12:40 本当に軽い気持ちで始めた仕事なんですねただ私自身はすごく小さな時から12歳ですね12歳くらいの小学生の時から神社に行くとすごく心がすっきりするとかとても自分の中が整うなっていう経験をすごくしていてすごく神社というものが身近にあったんです So regarding Shintoism, it's more of a very natural part of my life. The reason why I worked there was there was an opening and they were hiring an attainment maiden. And I saw help wanted sign. It was a very, very casual decision. When I was 12 years old in elementary school, I felt, you know, even at that age, I felt like when I went to a shrine,

Starting point is 00:13:25 I felt very peaceful and put together inside. She stayed at that job for how long? Or how long did she continue to do that job? Okay, so five years. And what does an attendant大学4年生なんですけど4年までなので5年間ですねこのおみっこさんの仕事内容としてはすごくとてもシンプルで基本的にはご参拝してくださった方に対してお守り料や

Starting point is 00:14:02 お札などをお授けしたりですとかあとは境内のお掃除ですね、という仕事を主にやっていました。 So I did this as a student. So after I graduated college, I got a different full-time job. So it was a college gig. And the sort of switch that I'd love to hear more about is, how did she, what was the experience, or how did she go from a focus on throwing things away to things that give joy?はい、これにはストーリーがあって本当に先ほどお伝えしたように

Starting point is 00:14:56 私は小さい頃からとにかく片付けの研究をずっと続けていたわけなんですが当時は私にとって片付けイコール捨てることだったんですねただ自分の中で物を捨てても捨てても There's a story behind this. So as I mentioned before, I loved studying and experimenting with organizing since a young age. But at the time, for me me organizing meant throwing things away but even when i threw things away i didn't feel like i was organized and why is that So this was a very negative way of looking at things. At the time, I was throwing away so many things that I called myself a discarding machine. I was always looking for reasons to throw things away, and this became extremely stressful.

Starting point is 00:16:14 So it sounds like it had a negative connotation. So the act of cleaning up with a focus on throwing things out sort of acquired a negative connotation. So the, the, the sparking joy I want to talk about, because I think people who've read your books will be familiar with some of these concepts, but for people who haven't read the books, I'll take a stab at it. One of the things you're known for, you've been known for many different things, but one would be looking at things in terms of say categories instead of rooms, right? Then you also have holding these objects in your hands once you put everything in a category, say on the floor and asking if it sparks joy. So I want to talk about the Japanese version of that.

Starting point is 00:16:57 So is the word tokimeku? Yes, it's tokimeku. So I would love for her to describe in Japanese what it feels like when it's an object that sheはいトキメクですそうですね先ほどの私がトキメクっていうことに気づいたきっかけで多分最後までお話ししてなかったかと思うんですけれどもそれで言うと

Starting point is 00:17:21 トキメクものって本当に大事なんだっていう風に気づいたのはさっきもお伝えしたように捨てるものを探し続けて So I realized that the concept of spark joy is extremely important. As I said before, I was extremely stressed out when I was trying to identify things that I could discard. And as you may all know I've actually passed out from organizing too much. When I woke up, in my head, I was thinking, what's important in organizing is not focusing on discarding, but really focusing on what to keep. So it's really how to make your room into a space that sparks joy, full of things that spark joy for you. And so when I woke up, this was really the first time that I realized the spark joy concept. This is waking up after passing out.

Starting point is 00:18:44 Yes. Right. What is so important about thanking objects? And when did that start for her? So being grateful to objects. Why is that important? And when did it start? Showing appreciation for things, that's, I don't really remember when I started. When I started becoming an organizing consultant at age 19, this was something that I already did.

Starting point is 00:20:05 And at 19, that's when her friends started asking her to help with tidying, offering her money? Yes, it was originally just a hobby. I loved organizing my friends' houses. But then word spread and people started saying, hey, if Marie goes over to your house, your house will become super organized. That's when people that I didn't know started reaching out to me and saying they'll pay for the service. Why is it important to thank the objects before discarding them?3つ目の質問からお答えするとはい、ありがとうございました。 3つ目の質問からお答えすると、それは、ありがとうということに関しては、

Starting point is 00:20:53 別に声を出しても、頭の中でもどちらでも大丈夫です。それの気持ちを一つ一つ自分が持つということがまず大事。これが一つ。そして、なんでそんなに感謝をすることが大事なのかというと、 either say it out loud or in your head. What it's important to say thank you to each item, well, when you're saying thank you, or rather when you're discarding something or when you're throwing something away, it's pretty common to feel guilt. You feel guilty for throwing something away. But it's really important to feel that guilt, and by saying thank you, it becomes easy to throw away. For example, I think it's easier to understand if I say thank you. To be specific, for example, one of the items that you can throw away is something that you bought and it was very expensive,

Starting point is 00:22:03 but you were not excited about. Usually, that's something that you can't throw away,アイテムの一つとしては買ってとっても高かったけれどもときめかないお洋服があったとしますよねでそれって普通はとても捨てにくいものなんですけれども例えばそのお洋服の本当のお役目を考えてみるということを私はお勧めしたいんですでそういうふうに考えていくと例えばその高かったお洋服というのは買った瞬間ときめいたっていうのが自分に対してのお役目だったりもしくはこういうお洋服は自分にとって似合わないんだなっていうのを教えてくれたのがそのお洋服のお役目だっていうことにそのお洋服と向き合うことによって分かることができるんですなのでその下物を捨てるときに買った瞬間ときめかせてくれてありがとうとか

Starting point is 00:22:41 こういうタイプのお洋服は自分に似合わないんだなっていうのを教えてくれてありがとう So for example, one of the things that clients have a really hard time throwing away is expensive clothes. It is usually hard to throw away, but you need to think about the clothing's purpose. What purpose did it have? So maybe it sparked you joy the moment you bought it, or maybe it taught you that you don't look in a certain type of clothing. So say thank you for, you know, say, for example, thank you for sparking joy when I bought you, or thank you for teaching me that these kinds of clothes don't look good on me is one way to do it. Really think about the purpose

Starting point is 00:23:36 and really realize what's important to you and what your values are. What do you say, we can be specific American fans of your books and methods. What do you say, we can be specific, American fans of your books and methods, what do they tend not to pay enough attention to? Just in general, maybe they think it's important, but they're like, oh, okay, like, I'll take a look at that. But then they focus on other things. Really, the question is, what do they pay too little attention to? And what do they pay too少しの視聴者に対してどういう視聴者に対して多くの視聴者に対してなっていうのがはっきり言って一番の印象ですただ例えば一つ申し上げるとすると例えばその本当に物に対する感謝という場面ですよね本当に

Starting point is 00:24:31 今自分が持っている物に対していかに感謝しているかこの物があるから今日は自分が生活できているんだなっていうこの感覚っていうのをもっと感じていただけるとよりその片付けの効果だったりとかっていうところがもっと出やすいのかなって思います So I've met a lot of my readers and fans, but they really understand the KonMari method more than I expected.

Starting point is 00:24:56 That's my impression. One thing I wish they would do more of is really feel and show that gratitude toward items. So really feeling their appreciation for each of their belongings. they would do more of is really feel and show that gratitude toward items. So really feeling their appreciation for each of their belongings. What is one of the most difficult things or some of the most difficult things that she has given up? I've been constantly tidying my entire life. So honestly, I can't think of anything.ちょっと考えてしまったっていうことの一つですねそうですね変わったことの一つとしては実際まだ私は子供が1歳半とまだ5ヶ月の小さい子供がいたりいるんですけれども子供がいると本当に時間がないっていうのをとても自覚していて

Starting point is 00:26:13 子供が生まれる前の時よりも完璧にきれいな状態に保つことはやはり少しは難しいっていうことに気づきました My kids are still very, very young I have a one and a half year old and a five month old What I realized is when you have kids, you really don't have time気づきましたそうですねまず一つ間違いなく言えるのはどんな状況であれまずは片付けて

Starting point is 00:26:42 ちょこちょこした対処療法ではなくて、まずは自分、私がお勧めしているこんまりメソッド、つまり人生に一度の片付け祭りというのを一回終わらせておくことというのが一番大事だということです。 Tidying and organizing is not something that you do little by little. So what I suggest is doing it all at once. That's really important. So what is that called in English? And what is that called in Japanese?

Starting point is 00:27:09 Because I just heard it in Japanese. 何か祭り? 何て言うんですか? 片付け祭り。片付け祭り。片付け祭り。お祭りみたいに一定期間を自分で期間で決めてしまって、一気に短期に完璧に片付ける。

Starting point is 00:27:23 So that is in effect, I kind of like the sound of it. I mean, this is like a tidying festival, right? Correct.自分で機関のを決めてしまって一気に短期に完璧に片付けるそうですね本当に物一つ一つと向き合って最終的に物の片付け物理的なお部屋の片付けだけではなくて、自分の価値観っていうもの自体もすごくクリアにしていくこと。これが私が考えている片付けの最終的なゴールなんです。 So you really have to face each and every item that you own. Organization and tidying is not just for practical purposes. You really need to make your values clear so understand what your values are that's my goal with organizing what would be examples of values that would help with organizing soですね自分は一体自分という人間は一体どういう価値観を大切にしている人間なのかっていうのをわかるきっかけになるんですけれども例えば今私のお客様の例なんですけれども片付けを終えた後に自分が本当にやりたい仕事に自分が大切にしたい人とだけ付き合うようになったり、そんな風に物理的に本当に行動が変わっていくようになります。 So think about what values do I think are important.

Starting point is 00:28:53 So this is an example of one of my clients, but she got a new job in something that she really wanted to work for. Other examples include people who built their own businesses or really re-examined their relationships and kept only those who were really important in their lives in their life. So when they're going through their house and doing this, the all at once approach, then the values that guide them relate to their identity as a business person or as a... So, okay, let me try to clarify that. So the purpose of organizing it is not just to make your house clean or your room tidy or anything like that. The end purpose, the end goal is to really think about what your values are, really clarify what your values are. So what's important to you? So in regards to my client examples, there were people who, you know,

Starting point is 00:29:49 after they finished organizing and tidying, they were able to re-examine what they wanted in life. Right, that clarity transfers to other areas. How would she suggest people deal with a family member who is, I'm sure this is a very common question, a family member who is a hoard'm sure this is a very common question, a family member who is a hoarder or does not clean up, keeps old magazines, old this, old that, like how would she suggest any, it could be anything, but how would she suggest that they, what would her recommendations be

Starting point is 00:30:16 to those people?するべきことというのはちょっと意外かもしれないんですがまずはそのことは一旦置いておいて自分の片付けを完璧に終わらせるということなんですまずその後にこうやって自分の片付けが終わった後に私が片付けをやっていて Then after you're finished tidying, what's really surprising is that a lot of people experience this, but when family members see you tidying, it makes them want to tidy up too. your energy changes after you finish up tidying. You release this clear energy, which is communicated to your family.

Starting point is 00:31:46 So even people who have secretly tidied up have come to me and said that their family's tidied up after them as well. What would her words of advice be to a particularly difficult case? Let's say you do finish your own cleaning and tidying, but there's a family member who stillポイントとしては、まずは収納場所は明確に分けるということがすごく大事なんです。これはお家の中で一緒に暮らしている家族としても、ルールを明確にするべきだというふうに私は考えていて例えば片付けが苦手な旦那さんがいたとしてそしたらあなたの物を収納する場所はここからここまででこういうふうなんです

Starting point is 00:32:35 私の収納場所はここからここなんですっていうふうなものはきっちり決めておくということがすごく大事なんですそこからはみ出さない限りは基本的には自分は口を出さないっていうのをやってあとは私がよくお勧めしているのは lay that out and say, you know, as long as you're within this space, I won't say anything.旦那さんのものであれば収納だけはきれいに整えてあげる作り変えてあげるっていうのはすごく効果的です例えばお洋服をきれいに畳み直してきれいに収納し直してあげるっていうことを一回やって差し上げるだけでそのご主人が片付いている状態ってすごく気持ちいいんだとか楽しいんだっていう経験をすることができるのでそれによって

Starting point is 00:33:55 すごく片付けに興味が持ってきたりっていう風にするケースがとても多いです。 So for example, you can fold your husband's clothes for them and put it away for them. And that way your husband can realize, oh, wow, having a tidy and organized space feels really good. And then he can become interested in tidying up himself. Yeah, that's what one of my ex-girlfriends did a few years ago. But she did it in a very clever way. She would say, and I'm not that messy, but I tend to have a lot of certain things where I

Starting point is 00:34:25 used to. And she would say, why don't we just give away one of these and then let me organize the space. And then if you don't like it, I can put it back the way it was. So she would volunteer that way. And of course, maybe I'm just too lazy, but once it was fixed, it looked better, felt better. I was like, no, of course I'm not going to ask you to turn it back down. It was, but she was very good at getting that foot in the door. So in any case, so question about kids. I want to talk about kids a little bit. How would you suggest helping to instill the habit of tidiness into kids? Are there any routines or practices

Starting point is 00:35:07 that you can have children do when they're young so that they have the habit of tidying? One of the most recommended ways to teach children how to tidy up is to teach them how to fold their clothes correctly. What I recommend is teach your kids how to fold clothes in the proper way. tatami kata o oshiete ageru koto ni yotte, katazuke no shukan, katazuke no ishiki tteyuu no sugo kukutsuki yasuku ni natte ikimasu. The reason is, clothes is

Starting point is 00:35:48 something that everyone uses every day. You use it every day, you have to put it away every day, and it's clearly your own. So by teaching kids how to fold, they'll learn how to organize really quickly, or the concept of organizing and keeping tidy. So I was very happy to

Starting point is 00:36:04 see her folding method the first time I saw it, which for those people who are familiar, and I'm not going to do it justice, but if you're imagining, for instance, a t-shirt laying out in front of you, you could fold the arms in on either side into a vertical column effectively, and then folding it up so that it could be set vertically in a shelf, for instance. But it's also very similar to how I used to fold my judo uniform. And so I got used to when I was in Japan at age 15 as an exchange student, I was in part of the club system, sports were mandatory. So they call that bukatsu and I went into the judo. So every day I would have to very nicely fold up my judo uniform two or three times.

Starting point is 00:36:46 And so I got very accustomed to folding the clothing and then I would tie it with the belt, the obi, and put it over my shoulder and off to the train I went. So I saw the folding method and it was very natsukashi. Natsukashi is one of those words that's kind of hard in Japanese. For those people who speak any Portuguese, it's similar. It's a little similar to saudade. But it's a little hard to translate into English. Makes me think fondly of my experience in Japan. The closest word might be nostalgia.

Starting point is 00:37:19 Nostalgia. There we go. Yeah, that's the closest. That's probably the closest word. How is the Konmari method different from minimalism?はい、これが近いです。 Right, so I think I can, I mean, it mean it sounds like this is very fun for me to explore because what Maria-san was just explaining is that in minimalism you're really focusing on reduction and the sort of minimal amount as the objective, whereas in her method, please correct me if I get any of this wrong, the amount doesn't really matter as much. It's about finding the balance that makes you happy. And as long as that's the case, then it's permissible in so much as it reminds me of, and my fans are probably sick and tired of hearing me talk about Seneca and stoicism, but, uh, stoics would talk about

Starting point is 00:38:45 in the case of Seneca, for instance, uh, riches not being the problem. So you're, you're allowed to have riches as long as the riches don't have you, if that makes sense. So in other words, I mean, it sounds like she's also saying that you can have belongings as long as those are belongings that give you joy, but not when the things we own start owning us. Exactly. How would you suggest people let go of objects that they inherit from people who die? This was a common question that came up because they feel tremendous guilt about these objects that come from, say, a mother or a father who dies, what would your suggestions be to those people?

Starting point is 00:39:28 First of all, I would recommend that you clean up the things that you don't like. I recommend that you clean up the things that you don't like or that you don't like. I recommend that you clean up the things that you don't like or that you don't like. I recommend that you clean up the things that you don't like or that you don't like. So these fall into the category of sentimental items, so do this last.関する片付けは一番最後にするというのがおすすめですなぜかというとコンマリメソッドそうですそうですなのでコンマリメソッドっていうのは

Starting point is 00:39:55 カテゴリーの順番がとても明確に決まっていて一番初めがお洋服次が本次が書類小物思い出品の順番になっていくんですが自分にとって判断がしにくいものは一番最後にしていくんです。少しずつ片付けを進めることによって自分のときめき感度を磨いていくというのがポイントなんです。 documents, kimono, and sentimental items. In order. In order. So that's the order. So could you go through that one more time?

Starting point is 00:40:26 Sure. First do clothes, then books, then documents, then kimono, which is miscellaneous items. Miscellaneous. And then lastly, sentimental items. And it's really, really hard to judge what sparks joy and what doesn't spark joy for sentimental items. So you need to do this at the end so by this time hopefully you would have trained your kind of spark joy muscle muscle lens right and at that point if what if you have objects that don't necessarily give you joy but

Starting point is 00:40:59 you've but they gave another person joy so you feel guilt so you hold it you know it doesn'tそれこそ本当にもの一つ一つときちんと向き合っていただきたいんですこれは一般的な答えではなくてそれこそ本当に実際にその物を触った時に自分がちゃんと喜ぶ感覚がするか例えばその物を持つことによって自分のお母様の喜びというものを感じられてすごく温かい気持ちになったり幸せな気分になる

Starting point is 00:41:40 本当に自分の手元に置いておきたくなるというポジティブな感情があるのであればぜひとっておいてください逆にそのものを持っていて自分はときめかないんだけれども母はときめいていたよなどうしようかなみたいな感じの感覚ってになっている自分に気づいたのであれば

Starting point is 00:42:00 それはもう本当に今まで自分の母親自分のお母さんをときめかせてくれてありがとうっていう風な感謝の気持ちを込めて手放すっていう選択を取るこれも本当に一つの皆さんの選択なんです So you need to face each and every item so you know when it touch when you touch it if it sparks joy or when you it in your hand, do you feel the joy that your mother did? That warm feeling. That warm feeling. Does it give you that warm, fuzzy feeling? And does that make you want to keep it with you? If all those feelings are positive, then I suggest you keep it.

Starting point is 00:42:37 But then, let's say if it doesn't spark joy, but it did for your mother, what you need to do is say, thank you for sparking joy in my mother's life. And then say thank you and discard it. So it seems like the gratitude piece, the thanking is a very important part of the release. Sort of it provides a closure for a lot of this, which I find fascinating because the, in a way, so there's a quote, I'm going to get the attribution wrong. It's Neil something or other, N-E-A-L, but the quote is, and I'm probably going to get this slightly wrong too, the suffering ends when the gratitude begins. So I feel like that could be applied to a lot of things, including the cleaning itself or the rather tidying, what are some of the most misunderstood parts of her method? Like when, I'm sure there are people out there,

Starting point is 00:43:34 like with my work or anyone else's work who say, you know, Tim recommends this. And I'm like, wait a second, I don't actually recommend that at all, right? So what are some misunderstanding, common misunderstandings about her method? Yes, there are. For example, she feels very strongly about throwing away things that don't excite her. And she feels like she's being seen as someone like throwing away anything that doesn't spark joy,

Starting point is 00:44:17 I am often misunderstood as someone who just recommends discarding everything. That's not the case. So my message is take really good care of the things that matter to you.自分の本当の思いじゃないところで本当に自分にとって大切なものを大切にしきれてないんじゃないかっていう風に思うことが私は片付けの現場でたくさん思ったことがあるので本当にその部分に関しては皆さんにご理解いただけるといいなって思っているんです into anything that doesn't spark joy, really understand where you need to allocate your energy.

Starting point is 00:45:08 So you need to allocate energy into what matters to you, what's most important to you. So I'd like to switch gears a little bit and talk about her routines. So what are some of the routines say in the first 90 minutes of her day? Like what is the first 90 minutes of her day look like? When does she wake up? What are the rituals that are important, if any? Just that first, like from waking up to lunch, what's important? And what does her routine look like?意識をすごくすることがあるんですけど起きた時にすごくお家に対しておはようってもちろん家族にも言うんですけれどもおはようっていう風な気持ちを持ちながら起きてお家中の窓を開けて

Starting point is 00:45:51 換気をして気を通すっていうことをすごく大事にしていますそれからはあとは本当に日常的によくやっているのは朝のヨガですね朝のヨガをすることによって本当に自分の中の気が整う今日も1日のまずスタートする時の自分の元の状態戻すっていう意味だとヨガをしています

Starting point is 00:46:11 あとは本当に皆さんと同じように子供がいるので子供の朝ごはんを用意したりですとか自分の朝ごはんを用意して食べてあとはやっていることとしては日本のお家というのは玄関のたたきというのがあるんですけれども玄関のたたきを拭くっていうことをしているんですね玄関の床を拭くということを習慣にしています

Starting point is 00:46:41 After I wake up, I focus my thoughts on the house. So, for example, I say good morning to my house. Of course, I tell my family members good morning as well. And then I open up all of the windows, circulate the air, and then I do morning yoga. So I feel very put together and re-centered when I do this. And of course, as you know, I have kids as well. So I prepare their breakfast. I prepare my breakfast, and eat.

Starting point is 00:47:06 And in Japan, there is a concept of really wiping the floor of your entrance, so I do that as well. So she sweeps the entrance? クです。玄関のたたきを拭くことによって、日本って玄関と外っていうのはすごく明確に分かれていて、外と内、そこの玄関のたたきっていうのは、外からもらってきた汚れとかみたいなものを落としてくれる場所としての役割があるので、そこもきちんと、そこをクリアにしていくことによって、すごくお家全体がクリアな気が流れるというふうに私も感じられるんです of houses right before they step up into the house and put on slippers where you take off the shoes yeah and uh so i have a couple of specific questions does what type of yoga does she practice no that's totally fine she just asked wait a, there are different types of yoga? Just yoga.

Starting point is 00:48:25 I'm just a beginner. So, right, all right. So straightforward yoga. Does she have a routine that she follows or a video or? And how long does she do? When does she wake up? How long does she do? When does she wake up? How long does she do yoga for? I do my yoga based on a book I bought in Japan.

Starting point is 00:48:59 I usually wake up at 6.30am and I take about 20 minutes to do my yoga. What are the most common breakfasts that she has and that she makes for her kids? Yes, I change them depending on the season. For example, in the summer, I often make cold pressed juice from vegetables at home. In the winter, I make Japanese breakfasts that are very suitable for my body, so I make rice and miso soup for breakfast. It depends on the day. It consists of rice and miso soup. Is there anything besides the rice and miso? その時その時自分がその朝何を求めているのかっていうのをその日に感じて用意するっていうことをすごく意識しているので、常にいつも同じっていうものではないかもしれないですね。 It really depends on the day. So for example, I'll have Japanese omelets or leftovers from the night before. I really don't have a set menu for my breakfast. I make what I feel would be fit and good that day. When she gets home for the day, so at the end of the day, so we talked about the first 90 minutes. So I'd like to talk about maybe the last 90 minutes. Does she have any particular

Starting point is 00:50:34 wind down routines or pre-bed routines, anything like that that are important to her?逆に1日が終わった例えば最後の90分ってどんなルーティンがありますかルーティンとしてやっているのは私は寝る前というよりもお家から帰った後のルーティンが結構しっかりあっていてお家に帰った瞬間とりあえずまずお家にただいまって言うんですね家族にただいまって言った後にもお家に対してもただいまっていうふうに挨拶をして、それから自分の持っているものというのをすべて定位置に戻していくっていうのが習慣なんです。 After I say hi to my family members, I say to my house, hi, I'm home. And then I return the items in my bag to where they belong. Every item has a place. I return them to their places.

Starting point is 00:51:41 And I, of course, communicate with them as well. And thank them for their service. Just for people who want a little bit of cultural context too, when you come home to a Japanese home, you say, and then the people there would say, and then when you leave the house in the morning, you'd say something like, and then they would say, which is like, I'm going to come back. And then they would say, well, go and come back effectively. It sounds weird when you literally translate it, but that's part of Japanese culture with a, with your family, or in my case with my host family, you would leave, say your bit, and then everybody would sort of have a chorus back. And when you get home, you say, then everyone would say, welcome home effectively uh what besides her own books what books has she gifted the most to other people as presents Of course, it depends on the person.

Starting point is 00:52:57 But for example, this is a recent story. But in Japan, there's a popular book called Just for people who don't know Japanese にゃん is kind of like meow it has this book has a lot of cute pictures of cats and then along with a lot of messages that are encouraging words

Starting point is 00:53:19 人生はにゃんとかなる Japanese love puns they love puns それ They love puns. Okay, so if she could have a message, one message on a gigantic billboard, just like a short message, not an advertisement, but just a message that she would like to get to

Starting point is 00:53:46 millions of people on a huge billboard and sort of a metaphorical question. What would the, what would the billboard say? Oh, love your thing you own. Love the things you own. I love the things you own. That's good. I like that. I'm writing that down. Can you think of a favorite failure? And I'll explain what I mean by that. This is because I think that a lot of people look at Maria-san and it's very intimidating. They go, Oh God, she's perfect. She never makes mistakes. So what is a favorite failure? Which means maybe something that was, did not succeed or was a failure

Starting point is 00:54:28 that ended up sowing the seeds for success later. Does that make sense? Here's a failure story.していた時なんですけれども片付けにはまりすぎて家族の大切なものをバンバン捨ててしまったっていうことがあるんです大事なこととかそうなんですだからもちろん大喧嘩になりまして本当に例えば母親の高いバッグだったりですとか、父親の私から見ると全然着てなくて、

Starting point is 00:55:13 着てなくて埃をかぶっていたように見えたスーツだったりですとか、私としては、当時の私としては、私が捨ててあげたくらいな感じで捨てていたんですが、当時の自分に本当にビンタをかましたいんですね。 Of course, this turned into huge fights. For example, one time I threw away a very expensive bag that my mother owned, and another time I threw away my dad's suit that looked like it had dust accumulating on it. And at that time, my thought was, hey, I discarded it for you. I did it for you. And I really want to just almost hit myself or my younger self for doing that.本当にその経験を通して片付けにおいては本当にその人の価値観っていうのがすごく大事なので

Starting point is 00:56:06 本当にいかに他人から見てそれはガラクタだっていう風に見えてもその人の許可なしに勝手に捨てることは本当にタブーであるっていうことを本当に心から自分の経験で学びました What's important is that person's specific value. So even if it looks differently from you, what's important is how they're feeling, what their values are. So I have a question about the inputs. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. That it seems like loving the things you own is a balance of sorts.

Starting point is 00:56:41 Because you have things coming in that you buy. Then you have things going out that you discard. And then you have things coming in that you buy and then you have things going out that you discard and then you have things that stay that you organize so i'd love to hear how she decides to buy something or not because for instance i think for many people they buy something and in that moment it makes them very happy but then six months later it's not important多くの人にとっては、買うことができるときに、とても幸せになるのですが、6ヶ月後に、それが重要ではありません。それが何もできないのです。どうしても、それらの2つを分かることができるのではないでしょうか。もしかしたら、彼女は私たちを通過することができるかもしれません。

Starting point is 00:57:12 彼女が買うことを考える時の思考プロセスを。とても単純で私はときめくかどうかっていうところを大きな判断軸にしているんです。ただこのときめきっていうその感覚っていうのは片付けをすることによって、あとはその自分の残したものを大切にちゃんと扱っていくことによって、そのときめきの感度って磨かれるというふうに考えています。 It's very simple. So for me, it's just whether it sparks joy for me or not when I hold that item in my hands. And that spark joy feeling is a muscle, as I said before, that you really train by going through the tidying process. Could she elaborate on how then she distinguishes from something that gets her very excited for a short time versus something that she realizes will spark joy for a longer period of time?見分けているっていう意識は自分としては特に意識はしていないんですが

Starting point is 00:58:18 すごく自然に分かるようになってくるっていう答えですかね自分の持ち物に対してすごく意識的に向き合うことによって今自分にとってどういうものが必要なのかっていうのが常に意識できるようにそんなに意識するというか本当に自然な状態になっていくんですよねなっていくのでこれは今の自分にとって本当に必要だとか

Starting point is 00:58:41 これは本当に長きに渡って自分にとって必要だっていうこの感覚は自分で判断できるようになってきます So I don't necessarily always consciously think about that. So it's something that you just realize naturally. So you can notice what's necessary to you now. Consciously train that muscle and then you're able to know what you need now at the moment and what you need long term. So you become better able to judge that. Of course, I think it's lovely to have short term spark joy items as well.

Starting point is 00:59:24 It's not about long term or short term items as well. It's not about, you know, long-term or short-term. Got it. It's not exclusively one or the other. What is a recent, it doesn't have to be recent, but a purchase that comes to mind for her of less than a hundred dollars that brings her a lot of joy? Recently, I've been really excited to buy my daughter's shoes. I found these handcrafted shoes and I was really excited. So this wasn't a purchase for me, but for my daughter. I love buying things that spark joy for me for my daughter. I fell in love with this pair of shoes that were handmade shoes.

Starting point is 01:00:13 What about for herself? It doesn't have to be recent. It could be anything that she owns, maybe something non-obvious, right? That brings her a lot of joy. I'll give her an example just to give her some time to think. So I have something, if someone were to ask me, like, what is something strange that you have that gives you a lot of joy?

Starting point is 01:00:32 So I have yabusame, yabusame kura, to go yabusame ne? Wow. So I have saddles, yabusame saddle, and that's very strange, right right that's not something that most people have in san francisco but i have an antique yabu same saddle and i it makes me so happy every

Starting point is 01:00:53 time i see it right so that'd be an example of something that's not like because i could say oh i have a photograph of my family but that's true for a lot of people right so i'm trying to findでも、多くの人にとってはそうです。なので、私は、少し少し少ない、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、

Starting point is 01:01:11 多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、

Starting point is 01:01:12 多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、多くの人にとっては、というのが一目惚れして買ったんですけれどもすごく色が綺麗なんですパープルの紫色のカラーなんですけれども

Starting point is 01:01:28 清水焼きの抹茶用の専用のお椀でそれに一目惚れして買ってしまいました The color is beautiful. It's like a purple and it's a shimizuyaki style of bowl. Sounds beautiful. When you hear the word successful, what does that mean to you?して仕切れていない成功の目標なんですけれども私はこの片付けのメソッドだったりその片付けの価値というのを本当に心の底から信じていてこの片付けによってたくさんの人が幸せになることができるというふうに思っているので本当にその世界の10の方が自分の片付けを終わらせて自分にとって本当にときめくものを大切にしていけるときめく価値観を大切にしていける世界を作りたいっていうふうに考えています。それができたら成功だなっていうふうに言えるというふうに思います。 I want lots of people to leave lives that spark joy. I want more people to have completed tidying

Starting point is 01:02:46 and more people to lead lives of joy as a result. That's success to me. So aside from that, if she had to choose one more thing, to be on her, now this might be culturally specific, but to be on her gravestone, what would she want to have written on her gravestone? Aside from that.すごく大切にしている人だったんですね本当に自分の持っているものや見えないところまですごく美しくするっていう価値観を

Starting point is 01:03:29 すごく大事にしていて私も本当にそんな風に大きなことじゃないんです本当に例えば自分が持っている洋服をすごく丁寧に畳むとか常に引き出しの中もきれいに整えておくという風に小さなことをすごく大切にできていけたらなっていう風に思うし When I pass away, I want to be like my grandmother. So my grandmother really took good care of her belongings in her house.

Starting point is 01:04:04 She made even places that you couldn't see very beautiful. So, for example, I'd like to be remembered as the person who folded her clothes really neatly and put them away neatly, and I'd like to continue living this way. 成功って意味はすごく小さいことかもしれないんですけどすごく小さいことを積み重ねていって人生を生きていきたいなっていうふうに思っているんです So the example I gave might sound really small But it's really important to build up those small things I think the small things are the big things Yeah

Starting point is 01:04:38 Is there anything she wanted to just ask the millions of people listening to consider one thing or do one thing or ask themselves one thing? What would, what might that be? So please think about whether your belongings spark joy. Keep thinking about whether things spark joy for you. I suppose this is as good as place to any. I think to end it and wrap up, I think this is a question and a framework

Starting point is 01:05:15 that I want to apply to a lot. I have a sign over my hallway that says simplify. It's a wooden sign that I bought from a restaurant, more of a diner in a place called Truckee in Northern California. And I think I've probably given away 70% of my things in the last few years. But nonetheless, there's always, or there seems to be for me at least, an influx, which is why I was asking about the purchases as well. So this is advice that I need to heed. Where can people find Maria-san online? And June, you feel free to answer this, but on social and elsewhere,

Starting point is 01:05:52 where's the best place to say hello, whether in English and Japanese, if they're different, because I'm sure there are going to be Japanese speakers listening to this as well. Could you let them know where they can learn more? Sure. We have, we're very active on social media. Please follow us at Marie Kondo, both on Instagram and Facebook. We also have our official website, www.komari.com. That's K-O-N-M-A-R-I.com. We also have newsletters that you can subscribe to.

Starting point is 01:06:22 So please feel free to sign up through our website. And I have one, maybe two last questions. to. So please feel free to sign up through our website.そうですねよくやってしまう過ちとしては本当に順番通りにやっていくことだったり一遍にやっていくことですね私の片付け法というのはカテゴリーごとに一遍にやっていくというのがとてもルールなんですけれども、そうではなくて、手当たり次第にやってしまう方というのも、ときめくものを選ぶという概念だけを聞いて、その場で少しずつやってしまうというケースがあるんですが、そうではなくててきっちりカテゴリーごとにしっかりやっていくことです。 The most common mistake is when people don't do the KonMari method according to the order that I've suggested, or sometimes they don't do a category all at once. Some people just want to do things in whatever order they want and like to test out the SparkJoy concept in whatever order they want and like to test out the spark joy concept in whatever order they want please don't do that um it's important to really organize by category and could you uh remind everybody of the

Starting point is 01:07:53 order again you have clothing clothing books documents miscellaneous items sentimental items you heard it folks marching orders from the chief. And Maria-san, thank you so much. Thank you. And Jun-san, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us. And to everybody listening,

Starting point is 01:08:15 you can find links to everything that we are discussing, the books to Maria-san's website and much, much more in the show notes. As always, at tim.blog forward slash podcast. You can also find show notes to every other episode. And take a look there, tim.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time, before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do

Starting point is 01:08:46 you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance.

Starting point is 01:09:20 And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one.

Starting point is 01:09:37 And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by MeUndies, which I'm wearing right now. I've spent the last year or so wearing underwear from these guys nearly 24-7, except when I'm having fancy time, and they are the most comfortable and colorful underwear I have ever owned. If you can imagine really awesome graffiti that you've seen in cities like L.A. or elsewhere,

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Starting point is 01:10:29 Maybe you should sell them in Japan or something. But if you love the product, and they make great gifts also, and for those people wondering, I go boxer briefs. If you love it, they have a subscription offer where you can save up to 33% after your first pair. So check it out, MeUndies.com forward slash Tim. You can see some of my favorite underwear and also plenty for the ladies. That's MeUndies.com forward slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. I've used 99designs for years for all sorts of graphic design needs. Whether you need a logo, website, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make great designs accessible to everyone and to make the process of getting designs much, much easier.

Starting point is 01:11:09 So when I first started out, for instance, testing prototype covers and getting prototype covers for the 4-Hour Body, I went the contest route. That is one option. This is a great solution if you're looking for fast, affordable design work and the ability to choose from dozens of options risk-free. Let's say you need something late night, quick turnaround. Well, people in other time zones, other countries can also help you solve that problem. Since then, I've worked with 99designs on a separate path or a different option. And that is the one-to-one project service. So in a number of cases cases and I'll give you one

Starting point is 01:11:45 example when I wanted to create the cover for my audio book the Tao of Seneca this was a very important project to me I decided to use their one-to-one project service and with this service you can invite a specific designer to your project agree on a price and then work together until you're satisfied and they like it iterate and provide feedback and all this stuff and I haven't shared it yet but we also got some incredibly good, really some of the best illustrations I've ever seen from using this one-to-one project service with a handful of different designers and illustrators. It blew my mind. check out the Tao of Seneca design and other work that I and your fellow listeners, for that matter, have done on 99designs at 99designs.com forward slash Tim. And right now you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. Again, that's 99designs.com forward slash Tim.

Pet Camera - EBO Air 2

The Tim Ferriss Show - #234: Marie Kondo -- The Japanese Tidying Master

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Pet Camera - EBO Air 2

The Tim Ferriss Show - #234: Marie Kondo -- The Japanese Tidying Master

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.