The Tim Ferriss Show - #261: Mental Performance, Work-Life Balance, and the Rise to the Top - Maria Sharapova

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Starting point is 00:03:25 whether they are billionaires, chess prodigies, elite athletes, or otherwise. And in this case, we have elite athlete, Maria Sharapova. And man, oh man, did I have a lot of fun with this conversation. We got deep into the tactics of training and mental performance, mental toughness, and much, much more. You can find her on Facebook, Sharap more. You can find her on Facebook, Sharapova. You can find her on Twitter and Instagram at Maria Sharapova. Who is Maria Sharapova? She is the winner of five Grand Slam titles and is an Olympic silver medalist. She is only one of a handful of players to hold all four Grand Slam titles,

Starting point is 00:04:00 including Wimbledon, US Open, Australian Open open and roland garos she has held the world number one ranking for 21 weeks and has won 35 singles titles in her career forbes also named her the highest paid female athlete of all time in 2005 she's now held that title for a record 11 years or 12 years that is a long time maria garners worldwide press coverage on and off the court with a social media presence that includes 15.5 probably a lot more at this point facebook fans more than 6.5 million twitter followers 2.7 million followers on instagram she serves as an ambassador to many of the world's top luxury brands and a number of Fortune 500 companies, including Porsche, Nike, Avion, and Head. In 2007, she became a Goodwill ambassador for the United Nations Development Program,

Starting point is 00:04:54 UNDP, and has made significant contributions to Chernobyl-related projects in her native country. In 2012, Sharapova flexed her entrepreneurial muscles and debuted her eponymous couture candy collection, Sugarpova. Most recently, she is the author of a book titled Unstoppable My Life So Far. It describes her story in detail and was done in collaboration with an incredible writer named Rich Cohen, which we'll get into. But a few things that we don't get into, we don't talk about Maldonium, we don't talk about the sponsors, we don't talk about a handful of things that have been talked to death in the media.

Starting point is 00:05:39 We dig into more of the specifics that you can use, the specifics that will inspire you and also instruct you that you can apply. So that was the focus. And I really hope you enjoy this as much as I did. It was a blast and it inspired me. In fact, among other things to come to Florida where I am right now, I have compression sleeve on my right arm. because i'm doing tennis camp i'm doing an intense immersive tennis program at the human performance institute with jim lair that's l-o-e-h-r and you should definitely check out the human performance institute with jim lair it's phenomenal and i've been playing my little heart out in tennis, which I've always wanted to do my entire life for the last two days. And I have a few more days to go, but, uh, Maria

Starting point is 00:06:32 really piqued my interest in this sport, which I'd wanted to do for so, so long and put off. And I realized, you know, rather than doing jujitsu and all these things that break my body, the gentle art, maybe I should try something like tennis. Golf, not my speed. I'd rather just go for a hike. But tennis, yeah, I like the sound of that. And I like watching it. So even if just to get a better appreciation of the sports that I can see the nuances and details when watching tennis on TV, tennis, said Sean Connery. All right, I need to go have a drink and dinner. In any case, without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Maria Sharapova. Maria, welcome to the show. Thank you. I am so thrilled that we were able

Starting point is 00:07:22 to carve out time. And I have so many questions. I will start with a rather simple one. I'm sitting here drinking tea. I'm having Charleston breakfast tea. And I have heard that you also enjoy tea. Is that true? And if so, what type of tea do you prefer? What are your go-to teas? So I grew up in Russia where tea, it's a big

Starting point is 00:07:46 part of our culture is drinking tea in the afternoons with your grandparents. So I drank black tea, a Darjeeling type of tea that was made in the mountains in Siberia. And I would have it with raspberry jam that my grandmother would make. That sounds amazing. So would you put the jam on a piece of toast and have it? No, I actually put it in my tea, and I still do that, and people look at me very strangely and suspiciously. I get it, but just so many memories of my childhood. Yeah, I do that instead of sugar, which is pretty much the same thing, but it's a little messier. It gives you permission. And you mentioned Siberia, which is where I want to go next. You were born in Siberia, as I understand it, but your mother was pregnant with you while in Chernobyl. So could you explain what happened exactly? My parents were from Gomel. It was a very small town,

Starting point is 00:08:47 very close to where the Chernobyl reactor blew up. And during that time, just before my mother was pregnant with me in 1986, and they fled, there was not a lot of information about what happened during Chernobyl. My grandparents were living in Siberia at the time from my mom's side. And they said, you need to get out of there. They were able to get more information about the disaster itself than my parents were able to get to being so close to the area. And they left. And that's why I was born in Siberia. Your family fled to, I guess, well, Russia right after the explosion, but you ended up in, I guess, a warmer place or at least depending on the season.

Starting point is 00:09:35 Yes. Much warmer. Yes. When we were about two, my parents realized, well, this is not going to work out over here. And, um, they moved to a resort town, Sochi, where, um, it just had the winter Olympics. And, um, one of the, I mean, I still consider it one of the most beautiful places to visit because you have the black sea and you have the palm trees in the summer and just an hour away, you have these mountains where the Olympics were held and, um, some of the best skiing in the world. My dad still skis there all the time. So yeah, I definitely, it's one of the most peaceful places as well. If I go to Russia, I've never visited Russia. I've always wanted to.

Starting point is 00:10:16 Are there one or two places that I absolutely must visit in your mind? Are there any particular things that I cannot miss? I know it's a gigantic place. Right. I would say skip Siberia. And there's definitely not much to see or do over there. But I think from a cultural standpoint, I would definitely visit St. Petersburg. And it is still a place that I've never been to, if you can believe it or not. As much as I've traveled around the world. But my mom goes almost every year. A lot of my relatives are there.

Starting point is 00:10:51 And I just have this enormous respect for the culture and just the city and the people and the way they live. It's very different. And people always ask me, as I was born in Russia and I spent the first seven years of my life there and I've lived in the United States ever since. And, you know, I've never really looked back into living in Russia, but so much of my heart still remains there. And obviously my, all of my grandparents and my cousins all still live there. And so it's a very big part of my life. And when people ask me

Starting point is 00:11:25 what I think about the country, um, you know, as much as I want to have an opinion, it is so large and it is so vast and there's so many opinions you can have about it. And I really just want to let people experience it on their own and come to their own conclusions. Cause I think that's one of the greatest things of travel, um, is to not have expectations and to get there and to experience a new place. But St. Petersburg is on my list, and that's definitely a city that comes highly recommended. Why have you not been there? And I mean, maybe it's something like me growing up in New York, I'd never ever visited the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty until a friend from Germany visited.

Starting point is 00:12:07 Is it like that or is there another reason? It's because of my schedule. I compete 10 months out of the year and I pretty much go to the same cities every year because the tournaments are all situated in those same cities. When I have a holiday break, which usually consists of a couple of weeks only in November, I go somewhere warm. I just escape. I put my phone away. I put just everything on hold a little bit and just let my body and my mind recover. And it just never has come into my schedule. Warmer places. We talked about a few and of course there's there's california there's florida and then there's sochi so going back to sochi is that where you were first noticed yes can you tell the story of how you were first found as it were as it relates to

Starting point is 00:12:59 tennis yeah so sochi um in the, it was very much a happening place. It was a scene and it was a lot of people were coming there on vacations. We had a lot of little parks and outdoor tennis courts and Ferris wheels and all these types of attractions. And my father, who was not a great athlete, but he played hockey in school. He enjoyed playing tennis. He was not very good at all. Um, did it for fun. And when I was old enough to go with him and my mother had me when she was very young, she was only 20 years old. So she was still studying at the time. So on, on weekdays when my father didn't have to work, um, he would take me with him to the local park and I would just follow along.

Starting point is 00:13:46 And we'd take the public bus to the courts and I'd just sit there and I'd watch him, you know, grind it out with a competitor of his. And then I'd see all these little kids playing on the side and they were just hitting balls against the wall. And I didn't have, I mean, I didn't have a racket of my own. And the one that I was able to get was so much bigger than myself. So that didn't really work out. But I immediately, something drew me to it. Something drew me to this repetitiveness of seeing these kids try to hit the ball against

Starting point is 00:14:19 the strings of the racket and see it come back from the wall. And it was very fascinating. It was like, I had this immediate feeling of, I want to be in front of those kids and I want to show them how it's done. Yeah, it was a very, even though I had no idea what I was doing. So I think that competitiveness kind of developed then where I was just sitting and bored and watching my father play. I just wanted to be out there. Was it a feeling that you could do it more correctly and just something that you intuited, that you felt intuitively? Or was it because you

Starting point is 00:14:54 noticed flaws in their technique or things that they were missing? I'm always curious about this because one of my closest friends, his name is Josh Waitzkin, and the book and the movie Searching for Bobby Fischer were based on him. He's thought of as a chess prodigy. And he had this experience very, very early on with chess. What did it, I mean, of course, it might be difficult to recall what was going through your head at the time, but can you elaborate at all? I think from my perspective, when you're that young and when you don't know anything about that particular activity or that sport and it was tennis in that moment it was really this like question of can I do that I see all these kids doing it do I have the ability to be better than them and after observing for

Starting point is 00:15:38 so much of what my father was doing just not on any professional level at all, it just came to my mind that I wanted to do it and I wanted to do it better. I think there's times in life where things come instinctually and you just grasp it and you notice it. And I think my father definitely noticed. I could have kept sitting on that bench and I just could have kept watching my father, but there's something in me that said, no, I want to be out there. I want to be playing and I want to be competing and I want to be learning. And when I got myself out to that, the wall where all the kids were hitting the ball against, I remember a coach, um, there's one coach there. Um, and he, all the locals were, all the children were going to see him. All the parents wanted him to tell them that they're going to be future stars.

Starting point is 00:16:29 They're going to be the next Pete Sampras or the next Andre Agassi. And he noticed me. And only after a couple of weeks of when I was playing. And he pulled my father aside and said that this girl can play tennis. And after that, I started taking lessons with him. And a couple of years after that, there was an exhibition that Martina Navratilova was a part of. And I was about five and a half years old at that time.

Starting point is 00:16:57 And the exhibition was being held in Moscow. So my father and I went to Moscow and I was probably one out of 200 kids in that clinic that she was holding for these kids. And after hitting a few balls, I noticed that she had come up to my father and I don't quite know in what language they spoke because my father didn't speak any English and I'm pretty sure she didn't have much Russian. But between the two and after she left, I spoke to my father and he said, well, this legend, Martina Avertilova, just came up to me and said that you're talented.

Starting point is 00:17:34 And this was only after her watching me just hit a couple of balls in the midst of so many other kids. And that's, you know, I look back at that and I, because I see so many other kids. And, and that's, you know, I look back at that and I, cause I see so many kids now I practice at a country club and, you know, there's all these just today I was practicing next to two little girls are probably seven or eight years old. Just enjoying the game on by themselves and kind of trying to hit the ball over the net. And it's hard to, to, to envision that talent. It's hard to see it. So for her to be able to see that when I was only five and a half years old, it was pretty incredible. Do you have any idea, have either of these, either the first coach or Martina later told you what they saw? Have you any idea what it was that they picked up on? I haven't spoken to Martina about it too much, but the first coach that I had in Sochi when I

Starting point is 00:18:30 just started playing, he unfortunately passed away a few years ago, but I definitely had this tenacity and I had this will of, of focus at a young age. And tennis is a very repetitive sport. So, it's grinding, it's just hitting the ball. And when you're that young, your concentration and focus is just all over the place. You play with the ball for a few minutes and then you want to play with a truck or you want to play with a doll. And the consistency in your mind is very limited um at least that's what when i observe kids which is completely normal but i had this i had this fascination with being able to hit the ball and and seeing somebody else hit it back at me and trying to find a way um and and the racket that i first had was, we had to cut the grip by like four or

Starting point is 00:19:26 five inches because it was so much bigger than I was and I could barely hold it and it was so heavy. And so it's just this really funny scene of me trying to figure out how to, because when you're just given a ball and a racket and like, well, what do I do with this now? So I just picture myself there just trying to find a way to get the ball over the net. And I had this determination of, of doing it better and better every day. And I, and I stuck to it. It was never, I don't remember one day where I didn't want to go down the steps of our apartment and walk the 20 minutes uphill to get to the bus station and then have to change buses to the, at the next station. There's never a day where I said, you know what, I don't, I don't want to do it. Um,

Starting point is 00:20:14 and I think there's, you know, that's not something that just that you have, that you can really teach or that, you know, you could develop it. Um, but I think I just, I really loved it. And I carry that passion. This idea that you were able to hold constant in your mind, this fascination of tennis and practice consistently. What did your, as context for myself, what did your dad do for work? And you mentioned your mother was studying. What was she studying? If you could tell us a little bit about them. She was studying communications and business. And I had a very interesting childhood because my parents were both, they were very young and they had no knowledge, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:53 what to do. I was the first child. I'm still the only child, but they were very careful of what the decisions that they made and where I was going to go. And if I was going to go to kindergarten or how long they wanted me to be there. And I spent so many hours in the library with my mother while she was doing her homework or she was studying for an exam. And then I'd go with my father when he would leisurely play tennis. My father worked in construction. He had a fairly normal job. I would say we were an average family getting support from both of our grandparents, from my mom's and my dad's side. And we lived a very basic and at that time, a very normal life. tennis and some things you had zero interest in and you had that kid-like distraction or ADHD-like inability to focus or jumpy focus. And then tennis was the one thing that you gravitated towards and really locked onto? Or were you like that with everything?

Starting point is 00:21:58 Well, it happened so fast. And because I had only started picking up the tennis racket when I was four years old, at the age of six and a half, I was already on an air flight to America. Right. So you didn't have a lot of time to test things out. I didn't have much time to really test other things. I love to play with dolls. I love to play doctor. I love to read. My mother was very much into education and she didn't want anything to do with tennis. She didn't want anything to do with sports. She danced ballet a little bit. the educational, the learning and the growing in your mind experiences to me. I mean,

Starting point is 00:22:46 she would read passages and novels that I was way too young to understand, but she made me memorize a lot of those passages. And something about that, that repetitiveness, I never liked to do it, but it was a sense of discipline that, that she taught me in a way that had nothing to do with sport. And I think that really, I mean, I would spend an hour in the evening just memorizing these poems by Pushkin and thinking to myself, when am I ever going to use this? And little do you know, with years and especially now that I'm older, you know, discipline doesn't always come so easy. And you have to build its foundations,

Starting point is 00:23:32 and you have to build the trust with the people that help you with it. And I think her influence and her ability to acknowledge that as a young mom was so inspirational. And that discipline really comes into play as a tennis player because you have to have so much of it. I mean, there's sacrifice and there are the long days, but the discipline that you have to carry on with, whether it's a good day or a bad day, just beats everything else. So I got chills about 47 seconds ago because I'm looking at the time because I found what I was digging for and I wasn't looking for any particular answer, but I want to just underscore a few things that you said for people who might be parents because of the 250 plus interviews that I've done for this podcast, there are a couple

Starting point is 00:24:25 of patterns that have emerged in people who've become really, really, really good at something really early and ultimately really mastered anything, even if at that age 10, 15, 20. So the first is that I've noticed, and it's not for everyone, but their parents talk to them at least part of the time about subject matter above their heads, so to speak, or as adults. And number two is a lot of exposure to books. Number three was what you brought up, and this is what I got excited about, which is developing a tolerance for repetition. And in some cases for that type of, I'm not going to say boredom, but lack of variety in some capacity. Because I think that that, like you said,

Starting point is 00:25:11 you're training that so that it can then be applied to other things. So you might say, why am I memorizing these poems? I'm never going to use these poems. But at the same time, you're developing the ability to tolerate the thousands of hours that you're going to put into hitting a ball against a wall. Yes, and it's the persistence that you're building.

Starting point is 00:25:31 It's the will that when, I mean, I believe in any job that we do, any work that we have in front of us, there's a lot of moments that we look forward to. There are projects that we love and that we want to be a part of. But then there's the tedious work. There's the things that the repetition as a tennis player where you have to just, where it's all numbers and where it's just a feeling that you get to a certain number and you just feel it and you let go and you don't think. And that's time. You know, and that it's, you could say, I don't think. And that's time.

Starting point is 00:26:07 You could say, I don't want to do it. I want to stop. I don't want you feeding me any more balls. But that mental persistence, I do think you can develop earlier. I certainly was able to with the help of my mother. And also, I mean I mean, I, when you're young, you, she was a very young parent and, you know, with the help of her mother and also culturally, I would say 30 years ago or 25 years ago, it was very different. And I felt like I was in her cocoon and I was, I was grown up in her hands, which also, I think, explains the bond that we have today and the friendship that we were able to have from that.

Starting point is 00:26:49 And I think that's one of the most important things in my life as I travel around the world today. And I meet a lot of young girls and boys, whether they play tennis or not. And I, and I hear their stories and so much of their experiences, um, is a very tough and rough childhood where they want to, they almost want to escape from, from what, what they knew as their family. And so sad, um, personally, because the experience that I had in my childhood and, and it was not, I'm not saying it was all butterflies and rainbows. Um, but as I look back at that experience and how they were handling that situation, how they were sacrificing so much for myself, created this bond within my family that was very important. Um, and it's, it's priceless. And I know that those are not the people that we are able to choose in our life,

Starting point is 00:27:45 but they are the people that know us the best. And that relationship can do so many wonders in your life. Because I feel like your mom is such an important figure in relationship. I noticed that you've been reading memoirs written by women and feel free to correct anything I get wrong, but most notably Love Warrior by Glennon Bell Melton and Jeanette Walls, The Glass Castle. And you called them quote, very strong, tough, emotional books, end quote. What did those two books mean to you? Why were they tough and emotional? Like, what did you take away from that? I'm very, I get very inspired by women i get very inspired by their their brain by their actions by their toughness um i think in today's world um and in today's working environment

Starting point is 00:28:38 and i face this a lot in my sport where you know i could be going into a press conference six times in a week and I'm faced with equality questions. And you almost have your back against the wall so many times and you have to explain yourself and you feel that you've done it so many times. Can you explain that just for a second in terms of explaining yourself for equality questions? Would you tell us a little bit more about that?

Starting point is 00:29:02 Equality has been a big subject in women's tennis for many, many years. And Venus Williams and Serena herself have done an incredible job of getting to where we are today with the helps of the pioneer, Billie Jean King, who's the reason why we make such an incredible living from what we do. And the one thing that we as professional athletes have to realize is we're not only fighting to win a tennis match, we're also fighting to be an example. We're fighting for our voice. We're fighting

Starting point is 00:29:37 to have a pedestal, to create that pedestal and to raise awareness of how incredible and how difficult and how each path is so unique and personal and how we're all able to come through it, how we are able to share our stories, how we're able to inspire other people and not just women, it's women and men as well. Do we get enough credit for it? I don't believe so. And when I say that that's what we have to explain, I believe that that's the feeling that I have at least. And I don't feel that we have the amount of support that we should be having. I was having a conversation with a very learned man, I guess would be the easiest way to put it today and asking him for advice or on a few things. And he said that to help the greatest number of people become an example.

Starting point is 00:30:30 So in other words, you don't have to work hand in hand with each individual person, but if you have the visibility and exposure as you do to become an example of potential, I think that's extremely important, but I had very unusual beginnings, all of this in many respects, right? And you ended up at a very young age at the Nick Boletieri Tennis Academy in the US, which is produced, you mentioned the Williams sisters,

Starting point is 00:30:57 Andre Agassi, Boris Becker. How did you end up there? And could you tell us a bit about the coaching methodology? Because that's always what I'm just so endlessly fascinated by. Tennis was not a big sport at that time in Russia. We didn't have many champions coming out of the country. I believe at the time it was Evgeny Kofelnikov and Anna Kornikova. But other than that, it was hockey. It was figure skating. It was all the Winter Olympic sports. And one, it was very expensive to find the right coaches, to find the right facilities, especially in the wintertime. So the only real option was America. And my father started reading books and studying the game. And he knew that he wasn't a tennis coach and he knew that he wasn't a great tennis player.

Starting point is 00:32:00 And the smart, I would say one of the biggest gifts that my father gave me, and it started from a very young age, was that he realized that he wasn't the one that was going to be my main coach. He wasn't the one that knew everything or believed to know everything. He wanted to get the help from others. And so he started doing research. And next thing I knew, just before my seventh birthday, I was on a flight to Miami, Florida. And from there, we made this crazy bus journey four hours north to the Voluntary Academy in Bradenton, Florida,

Starting point is 00:32:35 which has, as you just mentioned, so many of the stars past and present and future at the moment. It's really a factory, this tennis factory that's grown into other sports as well. But at the time it was very tennis specific and Nick Volatary was someone that came with a lot of experience and coaching experience. And he as a person was a mentor to me more than anything with the guidance, with this experience of seeing so many people come in and out. So many people come in wanting to be champions, turned into good. Some people come in, they turn into great, and some just turn into champions. And he's seen it all. So, knocking at the door of Nick Voluntary Academy in the dead of the night was probably one of the

Starting point is 00:33:22 toughest moments in that journey. And it really began there. And they told us it was a little too late or a little too early to be knocking at an academy door. So they sent us to a hotel and we ended up coming back in the morning. And they put me in a group of kids with probably six or seven kids. And an instructor watched me hit a few balls and called over Nick Boletari and said, you have to see this girl play. And then Nick saw me play and that's kind of where it took off. And what makes that place so special? And I ask because I always wonder, I mean, in the beginning, there must have been something special in the sauce because there

Starting point is 00:34:03 comes a point where the best in the world gravitate to your center. If you've produced a lot of champions. So then there's a question of, is it created or is it a sort of a selection bias, but what makes that place unique in terms of training, in terms of principles or, or anything that makes it stand apart? That's a great, that's a great question because it's, I see it in two different ways. And from a positive view, I saw it and I still see it as, first of all, it's, it's located in a place where there's nothing else to do. So you are, you're going there to be committed to become a tennis player or another sport that you might be practicing over

Starting point is 00:34:45 there. You have no distractions. The second greatest thing about it is the amounts of kids that were there that were older than I was against whom I was able to compete. And so every afternoon, six days a week, I would play matches against them and I would play sets and it was the best learning experience because creating that understanding what you do and who you are as a tennis player and those mechanics the basics the mind the brain of setting up the next shot before you even hit it that knowledge you get by playing. And so I had this, this opportunity, I'd play a kid from China, I'd play a kid from Europe, that were, I was most likely I was one, I was not most likely I was one of the youngest ones at the academy. At one point, I wasn't even

Starting point is 00:35:37 allowed to board there because I was so young. And so I had this incredible experience of coming in terms of competition of seeing someone across the net that was two feet higher than I was, that was stronger than I was. And I had to figure out how to beat them if I wanted to, you know, have my self-esteem or be confident or be a better player. And the other great thing was that Nick himself, he knew what to say and he knew when to say it. And I think you can be a great coach, and I've had many throughout my career, but they're not very good business people. And Nick understood that you only need just a handful, maybe a couple or a few players that could really make the academy what it is. And, you know, I boarded with eight other girls for a long period of time and they weren't excited to be there. They knew that that wasn't their future. They sometimes didn't

Starting point is 00:36:39 even know if that was their college future. But the money that was going into that academy based because of why they were there and practicing and competing was the reason why Nick Politei was so, so smart. And when you needed him, he was there. I mean, 5 a.m., he's there on the courts. He's the one that locks the place until this day. And that dedication and that love and passion for what you do, I mean, it's incredible. I just saw him a few months ago. I spent a few weeks there training part of my comeback. And he was out every single day. He'd come out for a few minutes.

Starting point is 00:37:19 He'd sit down next to me. He'd speak to me like I was 10 years old again. And he's the same Nick as he was. It's so rare. It's really rare to see that. And I go there for the same reasons. I go there because of the atmosphere, because you see other athletes, and it doesn't matter if they're in college, if they're young, if they're not going to make it, just to be in the environment of everyone training with a purpose, it makes you better. It makes you, I love playing in front of, you know,

Starting point is 00:37:51 a little crowd would kind of get around the court that I was practicing on. And since I hadn't been in competition for a long period of time, it was so great to just to have people huddle around the court and watch my every move. And I felt that adrenaline again, because usually in between tournaments, I like to practice where it's a little bit more private and a little quiet. And because at a tournament, you know, it's a zoo.

Starting point is 00:38:14 I always compare it to being, being in a cage of a zoo where everyone's around you and taking your picture. There's sort of no escape until someone just takes you out on a golf cart and and away you go and so um when i'm home whether it's in florida or california i i just love the stillness and the quietness of just being on my own i don't have a court but i go to a country club and i practice on a corner or or i train at a private court as well and um just have your peace and quiet a little bit just to have your mind only see your team and the members of your team and then do your work and leave. But being there for that period of time was brought back so many memories.

Starting point is 00:38:53 So a few things. Number one, Nick, I'm sorry. I always mispronounce your name anytime I try to say it. I always, I think part of my spirit wants to be Italian. So I try to really throw a spin on it and say, but it's, I always make that mistake. He would love that. If you said, he would love that. Okay. He goes to this little Italian restaurant every single, every single day of the week. So he would absolutely. Oh, fantastic.

Starting point is 00:39:17 All right. Well then you're welcome, Nick. Not, I'm sorry. And the next question is related to your experience early on. You mentioned that you had these giants across the net. Meanwhile, you're this tiny kid holding this gigantic broadsword, basically, because it's so big compared to your body. I've heard that you had some experience being teased when you arrived in the US. And I'd love to hear you talk about that, if any particular examples come to mind,

Starting point is 00:39:48 and just talk about what effect it had on you. Because what I have just been mesmerized, might sound weird, so don't take it as being creepy, but just focused on when I watch you play and compete is just the toughness. And you mentioned the grinding, and just the toughness that I see is something that I'd like to explore. So could you talk about the teasing when you got to the US? I very much felt like I was an outcast from the beginning.

Starting point is 00:40:16 And one of the reasons was because I had arrived in America with my father and our story just didn't make sense to anyone. So from the very beginning, everyone just assumed we were crazy, which if I look at that now, yes, we were absolutely there. My, my parents' decision was crazy. Um, the fact that we come to America and you have this seven-year-old girl with a dream to become a tennis player, that's never going to work out. And, and so I, I, I, I sensed that I felt that I felt that I was different. I always felt like I was there on a different mission. And because I was one of the youngest ones, I never had the same interest as the other girls. And I always knew that my interest and my passion was very different to theirs. And while I boarded at the academy, I remember coming back from practice and my little locker would be open.

Starting point is 00:41:13 And the only thing I had in that locker was this giant jar of little animal crackers. The fuel of champions. Right. Which by the diet these days has changed tremendously i don't even know where to look when that when you died is coming out next but back then i just remember that giant jar of animal crackers um that i believe a friend from the academy um gave me for my birthday and that's the only thing I had in that locker. And I didn't have many belongings.

Starting point is 00:41:47 I didn't have a lot of outfits or skirts that the girls had. I didn't really have anyone to do my hair or braid my hair. My father would sit me down on a chair and just cut my bangs straight across. And they never looked great, obviously. He didn't know what he was doing. And so I was always a little off. I, I didn't speak English in the beginning. Um, I was learning through just speaking with all the other kids cause they, they talk so much. You just pick it up and you learn.

Starting point is 00:42:18 And, um, it just made me feel very much alone. It felt like I had a lot in common because we were all there to play a champion. It was that I was learning and I was growing to be a better tennis player. And I didn't know where that would take me, but I knew that in order to get there, I had to wake up at 6 AM and I had to practice through the day. And then I would take a 30 minute nap from 12 to 1230. And at 1 PM, I'd be back playing matches and sets until four or five. And then I have a little bit of homework, and then I'd have to do it again. And so there was a lot of other interests that the girls had, and then posters and glitter and pictures and David Hasselhoff and Janet Jackson. And I had no clue who any one of those was at the time. And so I was just a stranger.

Starting point is 00:43:26 I was sort of in my own little bubble from a very young age. And I look back in those moments, and I've gotten that question a lot, like, how did you feel? Did you feel lonely? And one of the other things was that I didn't go to America with my mother because she didn't have a visa. So I spent the first two years in America without seeing my mom at all. And I look back at that time and I, there's nothing about it that it's sad. It obviously was very sad to not have that, that support and not have your, your mother, um, cut, cut your bangs instead of, instead of your father or him buy you shoes that are so ugly and you can't, you don ugly and you don't know how to tell

Starting point is 00:44:06 him, but he doesn't have enough money to buy you a better pair, so you just keep your mouth shut. It didn't feel like we were doing the wrong thing. I felt like I was on this path that I was meant to be on, and I didn't feel lonely. I didn't feel sad. It was a lonely time because I look at that. And of course I wasn't outcast, but when you're on a mission to do something or be something, and it's not so much about success. I think it's just, you know, we always think of like having a vision. And of course we have goals and we plant it in our minds, but I never remember one time where my father told me that I had to win Wimbledon or that I had to win the US Open. He never made me feel like if I didn't, that the world would end. And I always remember thinking that if this doesn't work out, we would go to Russia. And that's absolutely fine, because I felt like I had a completely normal childhood when I was living there. Did you feel any pressure in the sense, not from your parents directly, but in the recognition of what they were sacrificing for you to take a stab at tennis?

Starting point is 00:45:18 Or was that just not a factor at all? Whatever they did, they never made me feel like it was. And I think that's one of the reasons why I never felt the pressure of having to win things or having to earn money. I, I knew that I didn't know how much money I could earn. I, I was never really interested in that. I, I didn't know anything that would come with being a successful tennis player. And you never really do. And I think that's one of the great things in life is that you don't know and that it's an experience and it's for you to experience and for you to acknowledge and for you to learn from it. And whether you want to take it or not, that's up

Starting point is 00:46:01 to you. It's in your own hands. But the fact that they gave me this, this opportunity to create a life for myself, um, is incredible. And now my father's, my father remained kind of the leader and the coach of, um, of my tennis until I was 21 years old. He traveled with me to every single tournament. And after I won my third Grand Slam, it was very mutually, he decided to stop. And now he's on a permanent vacation and he thinks he's training for the Senior Olympics and he loves to ski and hike and do all those great things. And I'm so happy and it makes me just incredibly grateful that I can support that. And I, that I can do that for my mom, that I could do that for my dad, that they, for, for my extended family. And, um, and they're the reason why I'm able to do that.

Starting point is 00:46:56 Is it true that you've never used the word rejection or that you don't believe in that word? Is that true? Well, I don't, I mean, it's a very, it's a very tough word to believe in. It's a very tough word to accept. I think one of the reasons is, is because I saw in many different scenarios where my father would say no, because he would open up an opportunity to say yes.

Starting point is 00:47:28 Could you, okay, please explain. So there are many situations, whether it was a coaching opportunity or whether it was receiving money from an agency, he had this ability to say no to the things that seemed that like they made sense, like the easy way out, because he believed that later he'd have a better opportunity to say yes to bigger and greater things. Right. So he said no to the small shiny objects in front of him. Well, at the time, I'm sure they didn't seem so small. Not small, not small. I don't mean at the time in perception but right the short-term shiny objects maybe right so rejection it wasn't um there was never

Starting point is 00:48:13 because i always had i mean i always was following and kind of next to my father and seeing the decisions that he would make i was only only a kid. And even when I won Wimbledon, I was only 17 years old. You're still a kid and you're still following the guidance. And I'd win a match following that and I'd call it or I'd win a tournament and I would go shopping in a store and I would call my mom because there was something quite pricey and I didn't know if I could buy it. So I was still asking permission, even though I had earned that money, if I could purchase a piece of jewelry or shoes or whatever it was at the time that I wanted. So I was always watching and observing, and rejection, of course, when someone says no to you, it's easy to say, oh, yes, I was rejected. But if you can open up a different opportunity from that point of view, then you're turning a no into something that brought you to a better place. It sounds like you did that with your interactions with some of the other players who were boarding at Nick's

Starting point is 00:49:27 tennis Academy in a way. Yeah. Do you consider yourself an introvert and extrovert, a blend? How do you think about that? I think from a very young age, because of sort of the process that I, that I went through and the success that I, that I went through, um, and the success that I

Starting point is 00:49:45 earned from a young age and winning a major and a grand slam at such a young age. And because it became so unexpected, I went from being someone that was, you know, that someone that people scouted to being someone that everyone had analyzed and knew about and wanted to know more of. And I created this, you know, I definitely put on these horse blinders because if I had not, my mind would have been everywhere. And I think it would have been so easy to be distracted in those moments and situations and be pulled in different directions, which it's a slippery slope. It's very dangerous. And as a young girl, it could have been a disaster to say the least. And so I definitely remember, I remember the moment and it was

Starting point is 00:50:42 just a few matches before I won Wimbledon where I was sitting down with my coach and all of a sudden, I think it was before the semifinals of that tournament and all these tourists who had gotten credentials. They seemed like tourists. I didn't know who they were. Maybe they were important agents or sponsors, but at the time they just seemed like tourists that wanted a picture with me. And, and it really came overnight. And that sense of, wow, everyone all of a sudden wants something. Everyone wants something that you have. Everyone wants to be a part of your success. I didn't like that feeling. You know, I love the feeling of being in a position of showcasing what I could do with my tennis racket. But that feeling of everyone wanting a piece of that and the feeling of your opponents all of a sudden feeling like just by beating her, they're not just winning a quarterfinal or the final of a match, but they're winning so much more. Um, it made me, it made me feel like I needed to kind of put myself in a bubble to concentrate, to focus, that it was going to be that much harder, that much more difficult. And I did. And, um, I don't know if I could have done it another way. What were some of the, or what are some of the best practices or decisions that have helped you with that?

Starting point is 00:52:12 Because for instance, my friend Josh, I was mentioning earlier, who became well-known effectively overnight, particularly with the movie about his life for chess, he could no longer compete effectively after that because he would go to a chess tournament and there would be, I'm making up the age, but he's something like 13 or 14. And all of a sudden there are 20 girls who want his attention and a bunch of reporters. And he removed himself completely from the competitive scene. He's one of the most private people I know at this point. So what helped you? What kind of decisions or advice or practices? I think it was surrounding myself with good minds and good people that had my best interest.

Starting point is 00:52:58 And it's so easy to say those words, but I know how difficult it is to find those people. And even harder now, nowadays than it was. And I saw it in so many different examples of other tennis players and of their success and their paths after that. And the people that you all of a sudden associate yourself with. I think as an individual, it's very easy to be affected by the voices that are next to you because we listen to that and we, we process that information. And all of a sudden we, I wouldn't say we want to be like them, but we, we, we interpret it in our way. But like when I read, when I read a funny book, all of a sudden I feel like I'm a comedian or, you know, when I, when I watch this, an incredible, um, acting by someone, it inspires

Starting point is 00:53:52 me to, um, to be an actor. You know, it's like, there's moments of this that, that happens as an athlete, you surround yourself with, with people's opinions or choices or money and wealth. And it's very, it's such an easy distraction. And, and I surrounded myself with good people. And I, the friends that I have today were my friends when I was a young girl that my manager has managed me since I was 11 years old. You know, my mom is still very much my best friend and another really good friend of mine i met when i was 11 years old as well so i have um i have this fondness of of developing those real connections with people and i think it was so helpful for me as a young girl because i competed in front of thousands of people and i still do. And the walk to the tunnel and the walk to a press conference and the walk back in the hotel room, it's a very lonely journey.

Starting point is 00:54:55 And that it's a difficult, you know, you're in your mind a lot and you're thinking a lot. So when you have voices next to you that are the right voices, then it's so helpful. But I know how hard it is to find. But I do believe that that is a big part of my success. I have some public exposure and have found I've made a lot of mistakes and found it really difficult to identify in some cases what ulterior motives are or if people start doing me tons of favors i now realize there might be something coming six months later uh so i'm very hesitant to accept favors but i can't even imagine the level i mean i'm playing t-ball and you're in the major leagues in the world series when it comes to how many people want a piece of you and how do you for instance assess someone if you say have coffee or lunch with them what do you look out for or look for I mean how do you decide whether

Starting point is 00:56:02 it's someone you want to see a second time or talk to a second time? If anything comes to mind, and this is just because quite frankly, you've had a lot more practice. You have a lot of requests. Well, no, you've had a lot more practice than I have. I saw that email back you sent. I was like, whoa. That automatic reply. I was like, oh my goodness. Oh, yeah. I don't know who's emailing you i'm afraid i have 4091 unread email in my inbox oh my goodness it was released into the wild oh i can't do that i need to keep my inbox clean then i feel like i have a mess in my head all right well we'll

Starting point is 00:56:39 talk about that next but in the meantime um so how do I choose? I think it's about I love meeting people and I love having conversation and I love being inspired. And you can get so much out of a conversation or about from by exposing yourself to being in an unfamiliar territory. So with people, um, and I'll give you a big kind of an example that was, I felt like it was important because I'm very much, I'm always around the same people. So I have my team, which is my coach and my fitness coach and my trainer. And we travel, I see them more than my family. We travel probably 260 days out of the year together, breakfast, lunch, dinners, practice, training. We know so much of each other and then you have a manager and then you come home and then you have your friends. So I'm always surrounded by people that I know and that I trust and that I love, which is incredible. But I always think that as a human being and from a perspective of the mind and growth and intellectually, when you're put in a situation where you're unfamiliar with people and you're unfamiliar with their stories or who they are and you have to ask questions.

Starting point is 00:57:59 And to get that out, it makes you a much more interesting person. And so last year, I put myself in this position where I had all this time off. And it was during the summer. And I signed up for these two business courses in Boston at Harvard Business School. And I was one out of the 40 students, I believe, in each of these courses. And I stayed on campus. And these were individuals who were CEOs and COOs of companies, of airlines, of Microsoft, of all these incredible brands. And I was by far the youngest and probably the silliest, probably the silliest and the less, the least knowledgeable one in the room, but just by being with them, just by sitting with them, just by sitting with

Starting point is 00:58:52 them at dinner, by asking them questions, by feeling a little bit uncomfortable, I felt like at the end of those three weeks, I grew and I grew. And, and it wasn't that, I mean, there were definitely things that I learned that I'm applying and that I wanted to apply in my business. But the biggest thing I got out of it was that I grew as a person. I, I became familiar in a very unfamiliar territory. I still keep in touch with people in those, in, in the classes. Um, we have completely different lives. Um, they're CEOs of companies. They have, you know, three or four kids. Um, you know, they travel all over the place and here I am a 30 year old athlete, but there's so much respect in that room because we're all trying to learn and to grow. And so when I, when you asked me,

Starting point is 00:59:44 like, who are the people that you want to meet with or speak to grow. And so when I, when you asked me, like, who are the people that you want to meet with or speak to or have a coffee with, I always think of that. And the people that I choose to be with are the people that I want to learn from. And then I want to have a conversation with, and not just about what they bought at the flea market or, you know, what they're going to, how they're, how they like their coffee, but it's about the world and it's about education. It's about people. And, and it's not about right or wrong. I don't always have conversation because I want to know what makes someone perfect and not, I like to hear opinions. And I got out of that experience in Boston and I, no, I felt like I grew. I felt like I stepped up and I got out of my comfort zone and I followed up with them.

Starting point is 01:00:27 And we still keep in touch about business and projects and things like that. So it was a very interesting experience personally for me. What I like about your answer and what I think is healthy for me to hear, quite frankly, is that I frame the question by focusing on what to cut out. How do you avoid this? How do you find red flags for that? What do you look for slash slash ulterior motive, fill in the blank? And somebody said to me two days ago that that is a very male way of approaching trying to solve problems, to find the cancer and cut it out, to remove it, to cut it off. And the way you answered the question was, you didn't explicitly say this, but like, here's how I choose who to spend time with, not here's how I decide who to avoid. By no means does that come with guarantees that you're not going to be disappointed at the end of it, or that they're going to want something from you, um, that you weren't expecting.

Starting point is 01:01:28 Right. But you do in order to, to have, you have to put yourself in a position to find out and, right. And what's the worst thing that, what's the worst thing that can happen from it? You don't reply or you don't answer, you don't get back to them. Okay. Right. Right. It's an acceptable an acceptable cost or tax to pay. So the reframing that you just did, this is for me right now in my life, at least, the really important stuff. And I suspect this is true for a lot of folks. And I'd love to switch gears a little bit and just ask you about self-talk. So what you are saying to yourself,

Starting point is 01:02:05 and I'll choose something very specific. When you are in a competitive situation, if you look back at your competitive career up to this point, when you've been down and then come back to win versus when you've been down and then lost, how does your self-talk differ? Can you think of any examples? Are there certain things that you repeat to yourself consistently when you come back and win versus maybe things you forget to say or ways that you slip up when you end up losing? Is there

Starting point is 01:02:39 any pattern to that or consistency? I wouldn't say there's a pattern because every what's great about the sport that i play in the situations that i'm in is that they're all very unique and that's what that's what makes it so exciting to do this after so many years and after being this child prodigy and um when i think of like the motivation that i'm able to have till this day and until that that fire is, I'll always keep playing. But that's the unique part of it is that you, every day is different. Every match is different. You might be confident, you might be ready, you might be healthy, but you never know what's going to happen. And, and I'm someone that loves certainty. I love certainty in my life

Starting point is 01:03:25 and I do enjoy having a plan but that's not realistic and there's so much uncertainty in what I do. So I know that I can prepare my best. I know that I can prepare my body. I can prepare my mind but in any situation that I'm in, it's always different

Starting point is 01:03:42 and you have to react to it differently and it doesn't always, it doesn't always go according to plan. And I don't always find myself being positive, but something that I noticed in my mind was actually in the last match I played. And it was in a match where I got injured at the end of it and had to actually, I was up in the third set in Rome, and I came into the match being a little bit't, I can't, I can't. I'm not able to. I don't feel well. I'm not there. My mind is not present.

Starting point is 01:04:30 And the second that I changed that and I changed it to I will, and I kept saying to myself, I will win the match and I will win the match. It was like the instance I remember being down a break point and the automatically there was something in my body language where my mind, just the repetition of what I was saying to myself, it just triggered my body. I became more aggressive. I stepped into the court. I took her second serve and I hit a winner. And from that point, it just, it changed in the end of the match. I was up, I believe it was two zero or something. I tore a muscle in my hip, but I had to,

Starting point is 01:05:10 I had to give her the match, but I noticed this, this crazy change, which I, I don't, I don't really notice as much. And, um, it was amazing that it just came. This was a question that you just phrased, but it was the last match that I had played, but it happens a lot. I do. I'm a very, so I take, I do take my time in between my service games. I walk to the baseline. I, I move my strings around. I, I do a little pep talk and it's very automatic.

Starting point is 01:05:39 I wouldn't say there's, it's something crazy or something. No, it doesn't have to be crazy. Yeah. Like something that. What is the pe like something that what is the pep talk what is the pep talk i think it's more it's more of like of putting my eyes onto my strings and and having this repetition that it doesn't matter if i won the point or lost the point but i'm just on this level that i on this level, that I'm on this path, that I'm on this like river that is going to get to where it's going, no matter what rock is in the way, no matter what storm is on the way, the water is ultimately going to go down the river. And that, and maybe prep talk is not the right way. I don't always, I mean, I do think that our mind is always working, always saying things, and you're not always so conscious of it, but it's this routine that I

Starting point is 01:06:29 have. And I think it's kind of a safe place for me because in a match, it can be an hour match or it can be a three hour match and, and tennis momentum changes so much, just like in life, one second, everything's positive and you get bad news and, you know, someone is leaving the company or someone's not going to work anymore or someone's not healthy or, and all of a sudden you go from a great day to wow. And it's just a way for me, I see those strings and I see my fingers playing with those strings. And, and I just, I think of being level headed and being not overly excited, not down, but being in this like medium frame of mind. that this is also very self-interested because I've never learned how to play tennis despite the fact that I grew up out on Long Island

Starting point is 01:07:29 surrounded by people on tennis courts, most of which I was not allowed on. I would serve their coffee. But I'm going to my first tennis camp in the next few months to try to learn to play tennis. And what recommendations would you have? Don't do it. Besides don't do it. No.

Starting point is 01:07:47 Besides don't do it because I've already sort of jumped off the cliff and I'm trying to grow wings. For serving, because I think you've hit up to 121 mile an hour serves, which just makes my eyes spin inside my skull. I can't even imagine what that looks like. Any tips for the people out there? I'll depersonalize, not Tim, but actually for Tim, the people out there who would like to be better at serving. Do you have any recommendations, do's or do nots? I mean, the one thing that I noticed a lot with people that are just starting to play tennis and it's not just about the serve, but it's an all, all strokes is that they take their eye off the ball in order to see the result or the, where the ball is going. Um, which is, is a big

Starting point is 01:08:38 mistake in the beginning, especially because the more contact eye contact you have with the ball, the more the strings of your racket are going to be on the ball itself. So seeing the lines of the ball, visualizing that will really help you. Kind of maintaining, like when you lift your arm up to hit a serve, sometimes we want to bring it right back down as we make contact. So keeping that left arm up is something that I focus on when, when I make a few errors and as a right-hander. Yeah. As a right-hander or if it's a left-hander, then keeping your right arm up. Um, yeah, I would say those are the two, two top things, by the way, I am the word. I'm the worst at coaching. I don't believe that.

Starting point is 01:09:26 I don't believe it for a second. Please do. Please do. Because it's so true. Someone asked me the other day, would you ever consider coaching? You just gave good advice. I was like, oh my goodness. You're like, I've had enough tennis on one side.

Starting point is 01:09:41 Oh, I mean, I'd probably rather commentate. I think you just don't like talking about yourself i think i don't but you are i i think you probably are a very good coach if you're a good player you can be i think if you get the right questions maybe a good coach so i'm gonna try okay so where do you think tennis players don't, let's just say novice intermediate, waste a lot goes into the result. Is it in? Is it out? Is it long? Is it in the net? And it all of a sudden becomes your focus. It becomes your focus point. That's why I mentioned watching the ball as long as you can,

Starting point is 01:10:39 because it takes your mind away from thinking if the ball is going to be in or out and therefore it I always feel that your attitude and your your body language and I've always thought that that's a very big part of of the game itself and how you how you're able to transfer this body language from a mistake into a winner that you hit and just the next ball or in a few balls. And sometimes it's all it takes because tennis is a matter of really millimeters. You could do the same thing and the ball, just the wind takes it and it's long. And if you're playing in the conditions where it's not windy, you do the same exact thing and you have the same technique, but it goes in. And one day you're cursing at yourself and you're upset. And the next day you think you just won a grand slam.

Starting point is 01:11:29 So it's a very, it's a very thin line. There's no doubt about it, but I do. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of attitude that needs to calm down. When I watch, when I watch, um, you know, when I watch junior tournaments, when I watch body language, when I see facial expressions and looking over on the sides of the court. Um, and a lot of it is because tennis is so emotional and it's so in the moment and, and every single point counts and you want it to count. And of course it shows how passionate you are about it. But the attitude is a very important part of being a tennis player. So in addition to the attitude or layered on top of the attitude, and I half promise this will be my last question about technique. In the first month, if you were, if you were coaching your son or daughter in tennis, and let's just assume they said, last thing I want to do is tennis. And then at age like 20,

Starting point is 01:12:33 they're like, you know what, actually I want to do tennis. Uh, just because, just because dealing with a little kid is a whole thing in and of itself. But, uh, we could also depersonalize it and just say, you're teaching someone you care about, right? What would you make sure they get right in the first four weeks? What would you really focus on? So I think the basic techniques, and even when you're young, that's the main thing. Those are your fundamentals. So if you start, if you need to go right and you're going to big serve, but you turn left from the beginning, you're done. And that's how I've always seen tennis is the spins are crazy. And I think it definitely can be much more simple and it's not about power. It's not about hitting a winner. A lot of it is controlled power. Like, um, I mean, I play a very aggressive and powerful game. Um, but when I play the best

Starting point is 01:13:41 is when it's controlled power, when I don't want it to be power. But when my strokes are simple, when they're not complicated, when I'm not trying to grunt as loud as I can, even though I grunt very loud, when it's really compact, you know, keeping your elbow close to your body instead of having this huge loop. And really zoning in on the ball. I always see people take their eyes off the ball. Well, I hate to say it, but I think your next book might be about tennis technique. I don't think so. I doubt it. So I'm not going to forget to mention it,

Starting point is 01:14:20 but I do want to mention it. You have a new book and I have more questions. I won't keep you here five hours as much as I want to, but you have a new book, Unstoppable, which I am actually extremely, extremely excited to read. And I don't, my listeners know, I do not actually always say that. I'm very excited to dig into it, but can you tell us a little bit about it? And then I will give one of many reasons why I'm excited to check it out. But could you tell us, A, why write a book? Because books are a pain in the ass and I can speak from experience. Well, I didn't know that, but now that I've just finished reading the audio version, I know that it's completed. I just took a deep breath and I said, wow. I said, wow, I have so much respect for every book that's on that shelf in front of me right now.

Starting point is 01:15:13 You're like, I can't meeting with an agent and I sat down and she came into the meeting talking to me about a potential memoir. And it was so far, it was just an idea that she had. It was not really even a vision or a plan. She just wanted to talk to me about it. She knew a little bit about my story about moving to America. She didn't know everything. And we had this conversation and I came into the meeting, actually just taking the meeting because I wanted to be nice. And I never thought that I was ready to write a book and to, to share so much of what I share in this book about,

Starting point is 01:16:06 about moving to America, about facing my rivals, about my personal life, about all the experiences that I've had in the 30 years that I've lived. Um, and I wrote a few paragraphs myself and she, I, yeah, she was very, it was interesting because I left the meeting feeling like, wow, I'm really going to write a book, aren't I? And it wasn't anything that she said. It was just the conversation and her asking me about my story. And as I started speaking about it, she was, her eyes like lit up and she said it was incredible. And I looked at her like, huh, really? Cause I, I don't know. I always, I kind of, I think that everyone's story is special and everyone gets to where they are and

Starting point is 01:16:54 their own certain unique ways. And I know, I just don't go about my life thinking that I know that it's very different and that it's maybe one in a million and that my family took a chance, but I don't walk around thinking, wow, this is brilliant. And so I walked out of that meeting thinking, wow, I might be a writer. I might write a book. And so I wrote a few paragraphs myself. And in just a few weeks time, we got this offer with no questions asked. No, is this going to be gossip? No. Who's, who's going to be part of the story? Um, I signed with Sarah Critchton at FSG and she wanted to hear my story and I don't know, it just, it, it inspired me and made me feel like

Starting point is 01:17:40 there was a lot of inspirational work that I could put on paper for for people to read there was a writer that I had in mind whose name is rich Cohen who you're very familiar with I am very you made such a great choice that was one of the things I was gonna bring up just for people who don't know and I hate to interject but this is another thing that made me so excited. So Rich has written just some incredible books. Jerry Weintraub's book was incredible. And also, I mean, The Fish That Ate the Whale, which a lot of people have heard of. You know, one of my, actually two or three friends, one of their favorite books of all time.

Starting point is 01:18:21 So I'll let you carry on. But Rich, you made a great choice. When I read Jerry Weintraub's book, Somewhere on Holiday, during my off season in November, probably I'd say seven years ago, I said to myself that if I ever write a book, that Rich Cohen would help me do it. And when I made the decision to write this book, I had my agent find out who Rich Cohen was, where he lived, what he walked in there just looking like he did not belong. And I knew exactly that this was my guy. That's my guy. That's my guy. I knew that he, he knew where he was going. He took the train. He had a shoulder bag on. And he was just looking around. He was simple.

Starting point is 01:19:31 And our conversation was very simple. It wasn't anything over the top. And I knew, but I knew from just meeting with him for 30 minutes that he was a genius in his literature. And that's where his genius has come out. It's on paper. And I got that sense from the beginning and another reason i i chose to work with him was because i throughout my life i have i've been influenced by a lot of male figures so my father my coaches nick voluntary robert lansdorp um my manager and i wanted i wanted rich to sit down with these people i wanted him to spend

Starting point is 01:20:04 time with these people to really get an understanding of the characters that were part of my life that he would share with. And that, I think that was one of the biggest reasons that I, I mean, he and my father spent, I mean, over a week together just talking and talking and, and it wasn't even life, life talking stories.

Starting point is 01:20:40 I mean, my father was able to tell stories that I, that I read in the book and I'm, I was like, wow, wow. I was so young that I don't, I don't remember it. And yeah, he was, we spent so many weeks together. I love the way that he worked. I love, love the questions that he would, I just love the simplicity of him as a human being. I love the filter also. It wouldn't have even occurred to me, at least in this conversation, if you hadn't mentioned it, but the fact that it's not just who you like and who's writing you like, but who other people will talk to. Because a big part of my story is the other people that influence my life. And because I started my life at such a young age, I started this, you know, this crazy move and this crazy profession. And, and these people were so influential and they're very much a part of this part of the reason that I'm here.

Starting point is 01:21:39 Unstoppable subtitle, my life so far, man, you have a a lot you have a lot of decades left uh yeah well you know i i wanted it i wanted it to be called to be continued and i got shut down really fast they're like that's basically telling everyone to get a new book i was like wait a second that's been my dream ever since. So because I, when I would see memoirs written by, or autobiographies written by young, I would say younger individuals, I would think to myself, do they really think that their life is over and that this is all they have to tell? So of course, when you say that you have a book come out, a memoir when you're 30 years old. And I was just so like i had this vision of calling it

Starting point is 01:22:27 to be continued oh but they're like that you have to explain what's inside the pages and not what's coming out next and i was like no what you could do yeah you know you say you could have this unstoppable my life so far then you write your your coaching book that you promised me you'd write then then the third book can be unstoppablestoppable, My Life Continues, or It Continues. So I think you could get a number of things. I can play with it. I know. You can play with it.

Starting point is 01:22:52 You can play with it. We have many different titles. I'd love to ask some micro questions just about routine and perhaps a couple of other rapid fire questions that I'd like to ask. Before I get to that, I know you've had some shoulder issues in your life. I've had shoulder reconstructive surgery and improved mobility and recovered largely. Good luck with that, sir. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:19 If you've had that. Yeah, I know. Now, fortunately, it's on my non-dominant arm. Oh, that's good. What I was going to ask you, you mentioned some of your team, the fitness coach and so on. Right. What have you found to help most or are there any particular exercises that have made you more resilient against injury? So for injury prevention,

Starting point is 01:23:42 what are some of the components of say your fitness program that you think have helped most? I like that you use the word prevention because a lot of, a lot of the makeup of an athlete is about prevention and it's, you know, we, we do so much to try to prevent injuries and we don't always succeed, but a big part of the little exercises and the tedious things and the repetition is that. And I would say the biggest component of, because I went through shoulder surgery, is the consistency of keeping up with the exercises. You know, there's a lot of exercises out there and they're all great exercises. But it's very rare that you keep doing them. And I, I start every morning after my shoulder surgery before every practice, I have a routine

Starting point is 01:24:33 with a rubber band. Um, it's not that that's not a rare routine for a tennis player. We all warm up. We do about a 30 minute warmup before we even get to warm up on the cord before a match. So there are a lot of little scapula exercises that you do. And this is with a TheraBand, one of those. TheraBand, right. Yeah. And a lot of it, it's not even about the weight that you have or the resistance of the TheraBand, but it's the repetition that you do. So the feeling that you have in the back of your scapula or in the tendons of your shoulder is that it starts burning. That's when you really know that the little muscles in between the big ones are firing. And the more consistent you are with that, the bigger chance of you getting healthy and also preventing something

Starting point is 01:25:26 else to happen because your body always compensates so if i have an injury um in one place you your your body's like the brain is so smart that it starts using other parts of the body and all of a sudden you feel it somewhere else so yeah yeah. Yeah. So the consistency of following through and really keeping at it is for me is always the most challenging thing. And I see people give up on it. What about, uh, for the lower body? Are there any particular exercises that you wish you'd incorporated earlier? So I grew very fast. And that's something that I speak about in the book as well. Because none of no one in my family is tall, I'm the tallest one. And I talk about the struggles that I had as a teenager during that period of time. And, and my father says it was I grew because I had this will to grow and that I needed it for my

Starting point is 01:26:24 sport. And that it was everyone's wish, including mine, that I would be taller. So I could be serve from a higher angle or that I could be more powerful. But with that comes, you know, you're a little bit less explosive. You're not as mobile, you're a little stiffer. And I think movement, um, you know, in tennis, you have so many movements that are just back and forth and changing direction. And so I work a lot on the joints. I work a lot on balance, balance of the core and then balance on a little unstabilizing platforms where I really work my ankles and my knees, make sure those are all aligned and not wobbling too much when just gaining the confidence. And sometimes they seem like the most, the simple exercises, you know, if you take a picture of them or a video of them and you, they're the ones that you don't want to post

Starting point is 01:27:15 because someone will think you're not doing anything. You know what I mean? Like they're not impressive looking. Yeah. Yeah. You're not, you're not doing an olympic weightlifting maneuver no not doing any rdls but the little things that are that that take time and that look so simple and that are boring are the ones that really you know that they not only do you keep your focus but you keep your strength and the balance so yeah and i work i work on my core a lot because i i do believe that that's i mean it is the center of your body and it controls so much of um it puts the body together it's like the glue if you could only choose one or two core exercises to do what would they be oh wow um i love using the trx band and do that yellow band and putting it up,

Starting point is 01:28:07 hanging it and putting my feet in it and then doing a plank and then sort of doing like bicycles while you're in a plank when your feet are in the TRX. I like that. So you're crossing your midline with your knee. Yes. Yes. That's a fantastic exercise. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:28:24 I'd say, I mean, that's a little bit on the advanced size, but I know that your audience can do knee. Yes. Yes. That's a fantastic exercise. I mean, that's a little bit on the advanced size, but I know that your audience can do it. Yeah. And you can also folks, if you have really tough top of your feet, uh, you can do that. I actually have some rings that I'm looking at outside on my patio set up at sort of pushup height and you can do something very, very similar. Exactly. Um, and i do a lot on the physio ball and that's always simple most gyms have it um even just the also known as a swiss ball if people

Starting point is 01:28:52 swiss ball physio ball yes there are a lot of terms um yeah i like i like doing all different types of planks or you know just floor planks and extending your arms or extending your legs one at a time out. So it's like an element of surprise and balance, or it's not just static. Right. And for those of you who have heard my conversations with Dr. Peter Atiyah, he is a huge fan of doing different plank motions on the physio ball. And just to your point about unimpressive exercises. So I have completely changed my lower body performance and just stability in the last six months using slant boards, which make you look like you're on the most unenjoyable drug imaginable. Right. But it's this tiny, tiny adjustment that i feel like has changed my entire

Starting point is 01:29:47 lower body by focusing on the feet uh so exactly here here uh now i have two i'm also looking at them right now i have a bottle of geranium essential oil i know it's not a smooth segue but bear right now i have a bottle of geranium essential oil i know it's not a smooth segue but bear with me i have a bottle of where are we going with this i have geranium because it was recommended to me by someone named nicholas mccarthy who is a one a one-handed concert pianist who uses geranium when he is writing and composing because he found it helped keep him alert without overstimulating him so he is writing and composing because he found it helped keep him alert without overstimulating him.

Starting point is 01:30:27 So he was relaxed and alert. So at some point, I saw a video of you when you were 14, a star in the making. Essential oils. That's right. Candles and aromatherapy. Candles and essential oils.

Starting point is 01:30:41 Are you still into that? I am. I mean, you should see the room that i'm in right now i have um i have all these oils and all these candles and yeah i i well i for me it's about like this feeling of being in your like home environment um and comfort that's something that you don't get when you travel so much. So when I do, it's kind of my way of feeling like every morning I turn on my incense and my candles and I have my coffee and just the smell, it's like the smell of being home. What's the go-to morning incense? It's a Moroccan scent. I don't exactly know what's in it, but it smells like I'm in Morocco, even though I've never been there.

Starting point is 01:31:25 Another one that's on my list. Do you not bring those smells with you when you travel? I don't. Interestingly enough, when I go on a trip, I know that that's my work. I like leaving those things behind. It makes perfect sense. It makes me feel that I'm going there for a reason and I'm not going there to be comfortable. I'm not going to be there in my environment. I'm there to do my job and I will come back home and I'll have everything. I'll have my friends and I'll be around my family. But when I leave, it's like, there's so many times when I've left and I've gone on a plane and it's the middle of the day and Manhattan beach and the sun is shining and everyone's playing volleyball. And, and I look at that and I'm like, it's hard. It's definitely hard. You know, my friends are

Starting point is 01:32:20 out there and I want to be out there and I want to be enjoying the sunset. But I know what I'm going out there for. I know that come a time when I have five days off, I'll be able to take my friends on vacation and treat them to a beautiful time. But now is my time to work. And so I like leaving those things behind because it makes me feel that there is a there is a prize at the end of it. There is something that I'm that makes my job different. I don't know if that makes sense. It makes perfect 100% sense to me. And it actually relates to something that made me smile when I read it. I was looking at a transcript of a conversation that you had. And

Starting point is 01:33:03 this requires a little bit of context, but I'll shorten it. I hate the word balance. What is balance? Because it's 50-50. That means you're only giving 50% to both things. So I've always disliked the phrase work-life balance because it implies blending to me. And I like to keep them very, very separate. Do you think that's something that has helped you more than hurt you or challenged you in terms of relationships, outcomes, and everything else? I mean, do you think there'll be a point where you trade that or change your mind about that? I definitely think that it's challenged me. It's challenged the way that I think.

Starting point is 01:33:38 But I do, you know, I read The One Thing a few years ago by Kerry Keller. And it kind of hit home for me when you're saying that when you wake up in the morning, you put your focus on this one thing of what you want to accomplish during the day, which seems like a no-brainer, right? It seems like, okay, that's the way that everyone should do it. But it's so much more complicated than that. And for example, when I leave for a trip and, you know, one of my good friends is getting married in August and I'm going to be either in Cincinnati or Toronto competing at a tournament, I know that I'm not there for my friend. It's a big day. It's a big event. And yet I have this career in front's a 50-50 balance.

Starting point is 01:34:46 That hasn't worked for me. I've always felt that I've had to let something go or I sacrifice something. If I'm just 50-50, I'm never 100%. And I want to be 100%. When you train hours on end, when you give so much of your body and your mind to this one profession. And whether it's me playing tennis, whether it's something else, I don't want to come into one of the biggest moments and biggest stages of my career and feel that I didn't do everything that I could. Right. And, and some, I do think that some people are okay with that feeling, but I am not. And that's my choice.

Starting point is 01:35:26 And it all comes down to choice. I think we all have them. But as long as I'm able to say, and I do believe that it's for other people as well, as long as we commit to that choice and not regret that choice, or don't allow ourselves to regret that choice, then that's when it's the right formula for us. Now you have many, many, many choices that are put in front of you and you have people to help, but I would love to talk about choices in the morning. So first thing in

Starting point is 01:36:00 the morning has come up a number of times and i'm rather obsessed with morning routines so you mentioned the incense morocco you mentioned the tea darjeeling uh when you wake up and do you eat breakfast right away what is the first 60 to 90 minutes of your day look like and what are what's the script what is the what is the algorithm for you? Yeah, it's different all the time. Okay. What about breakfast? Is breakfast consistent? Do you have sort of the, for instance, for this week, like what is your go-to breakfast? So I'm in training right now and I'm getting ready to play all these hardcore tournaments. And so for the last weeks I've been healing an injury now Now that that's all good, I'm back into the routine of just intense training every day.

Starting point is 01:36:49 And so I started at a particular time in the morning. I like to wake up early. I like to go to bed early. So I wake up early. I like to get about eight to nine hours of sleep. Sleep has been a big part of, I just feel like the makeup of how I feel, um, of the energy level that I have. Yeah. I wake up at six 30. I usually have to be ready by nine, um, for practice. So I use that time and it kind of depends like, um, right now I have a few, I have a couple of

Starting point is 01:37:20 businesses that I'm a part of. So a lot of like the first hour, hour and a half I spend, um, maybe on a conference call. Cause that's usually, you know, afternoon time in Europe. So I'll do one of those. I'll answer a few emails that's coming in from Europe. Um, I have a candy brand, so we have to make a lot of decisions on that on a daily basis. Sugar, sugar, pova, sugar, pova is it is it true i'm not going to interrupt beyond this but is it true that you can you were considering legally changing your name your last name idea for the 2013 us okay it was an idea genius idea genius idea it uh proved to be very difficult but all right so you, but it was very funny. So you're taking conference calls.

Starting point is 01:38:06 Yeah, so I do that work for the first hour, hour and a half with a cup of coffee that I have to have in the morning with lactose-free milk. What type of lactose-free milk? Sorry, I'm a nerd. Just straight on lactose-free milk. Oh, I see. So it's not almond milk or coconut milk. No, no. I see.

Starting point is 01:38:22 Lactose-free real milk. Yeah, lactose-free real milk. lactose-free real preferred coffee um i do nespresso um simple got it and yeah i think it's all for me it's all about the foam so i have to have like the right foam um so i do that and then and then i usually when i'm getting ready, I turn on a podcast and I listen kind of depends on the mood I'm in, whether it's about health or I want to hear about someone's life or someone's experiences. Um, I'll turn that on. So by the time I get my stuff ready for the whole day of practices and kind of brushing my teeth. Um, I, I listened to other people share, um, what are some of your favorite podcasts? Um, uh, well, a good friend of mine is

Starting point is 01:39:12 Lewis house. So I listened to his, um, I've listened to yours a bunch in the past, uh, six or eight months, I would say, um, to Dan Harris's, Um, I listened to, um, a fashion one. Yeah. A little bit of everything. So Dan Harris, this is Dan Harris of 10% happier. Yes. All right. Why do you listen to Dan Harris? Because I was going to ask you if you have a meditation practice of any time. It's interesting. Someone asked me the other day, do you meditate? And I said, I don't, but I really feel like I do because I listen to so many people speak about meditating that I really, I feel like I do. I had to think for a second. I almost said yes. And I was like, no, no, no, actually, I don't meditate, but I listen to people speak about it. Um, and I've, I have a little bit, I've tried, I've done it and I, I enjoy it. Some of it is a little, it feels a little cultish to me. Sure. There's plenty of that floating around. Oh yeah. But you didn't like the like cat's paw and black roses I sent you. Is that what you're

Starting point is 01:40:21 trying to tell me? I like when people, um, I like to hear about people's experience of life changing experience. And I think that's what, that's what really interests me is how something can affect a person, whether it's reading a book, whether it's hearing a mantra, whether it's meditating. Um, so that's why I like listening to people speak about their practices or how it's influenced their life or what they were going through that required that. Yeah. I love learning from people's experiences. So I think that's one of the reasons I listened to his. So I think, I think you've been meditating your entire life because of your comfort level, your comfort level with repetition. Right. I think that that is one in

Starting point is 01:41:02 the same in a lot of respects. I do. I mean, the one thing that I've, and I don't really know where I got it from, but one thing that I do, I realize that our thoughts are so spread out and that when I create my own stories that are so far from the truth, I bring it, I bring it to, I bring it back to the center of my breath. So I do think about just breathing. And that's not like me sitting in a chair and having thoughts or saying, okay, now I'm going to meditate for 10 minutes. That's just me, whether it's on a practice court and things are not going well, or I'm making so many errors. And all of a sudden I just create the story that is so, that is so far from the truth or the reality. What would be an example of that? So say I, you know, say my coach has me, you know, say I've studied some video analysis and he showed me a particular stroke that he wants me to work on or a particular movement. And he, you know, he's, this is, that's incorrect.

Starting point is 01:42:07 And this is, he shows me an example of what he thinks I should do a little differently. And so I go on the practice court, I start doing that. And with repetition, I'm not getting the outcome that I, that I wanted. And so I plant the story that, no, he's incorrect. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And, or, you know, or that, no, actually this is not, I did, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel natural. I'm not going to feel natural. If it doesn't feel natural now, it's not going to feel natural in a competitive state of mind. And I know all those things are completely not true. Those are all things that I'm putting in my brain. How do you catch that? What do you say in your own head when you catch it? feeling from a young age where I know how my mind can affect others or like my surrounding and

Starting point is 01:43:07 myself included without having to say one word. Yeah. So I try to bring it back to my breath and, um, or sometimes changing those words completely, even though those are also not true, but they're much better than the negative outcome that you're putting out into the world. I interrupted at some point, which I'm prone to doing because I get all excited. I also want to recommend, well, I want to recommend Hardcore History with Dan Carlin, if you haven't heard it. I would recommend starting with Wrath of the Khans is what I would recommend starting with. It is my favorite podcast of all time. And he does one episode every six to 12 months. Wow.

Starting point is 01:43:48 But you'll see why. They are incredible. And also, I want to, I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you to Louis, a mutual friend. Yes, that's right. Who made the introduction. Who made this possible.

Starting point is 01:44:01 Very good man. Yes. I think we didn't get around to it because i got all hoppity and jumped in right now you do this you have the espresso with very important foam you have some conference calls you take care of sugar pova and so on then my phones goes my phone goes in my bag for the next few hours and i train when do you eat what do you have for breakfast um i eat probably like 30 minutes before i get to to practice so i okay so for two for the first two and a half three hours you're not having breakfast i have a liter of water and a cup of

Starting point is 01:44:41 coffee is it special water no okay i'll be on water okay got it it's not like 27 southern california water it's just no no it's just yeah got it and so i drink that i drink my coffee and then breakfast i usually make myself a smoothie or or a green juice with um spinach and kale and chia seeds and coconut water and all the other greens, cucumber, kiwi. And I always have a piece of rye bread. That's kind of the European. I love rye bread, so I start with that. And I either put some goat cheese on it or a piece of protein or avocado and some berries and that's it. Sounds delicious.

Starting point is 01:45:30 Thanks. Pretty straightforward. I love rye bread, but my tendency is to eat a whole loaf of rye bread if I allow myself a little bit. I'm not very good at that moderation thing well the thing i would think about rye bread is that i i don't think that it's so good so that i i mean i i think it's better than some other breads but it's not like like sourdough i love but i don't i don't eat regular bread that much so if i was eating a piece of sourdough i'd probably have three pieces but that's right bread is in of in between. It's edible. It's digestible and good, but it's not a Snickers bar.

Starting point is 01:46:10 Exactly. That's a good point. But you don't want too much of it. Yeah. All right. No, this is a smart approach. All right. So just a few more things. In the last few years or just in recent memory, what is a new belief or behavior or habit that has greatly improved your life? Does anything come to mind? I mean, one thing that I had to go through in the past 15 months was being away from my sport because of a suspension that I faced.

Starting point is 01:46:39 And I went through this time period, obviously, with a lot of questions and questions of whether I would return to sport or whether I return to the sport that I played. But during that same time, I also realized and I had a chance to stop and really recognize how and what I've really done in my life and my career to inspire others and to, I've used the word inspire a lot because that's how I kind of see other people inspire, you know, my life. But I had so many moments and instances where I would come across people that would start a conversation with me and tell me kind of how I've influenced their kids or how I've, how they've seen me compete. And then I'm, you know, they admire my, my spirit so much and that they can't wait to see me back. And I don't, I never had that realization before, which sounds crazy. But I never really understood, or I don't think I really understood, maybe it was selfishly, how much I impacted other people.

Starting point is 01:47:54 Did you notice that because the PR madness was stressful and you saw that as a counterbalance? Or why do you think you noticed it? I think I noticed it because people, so many more people came, had, had the courage to speak to me and which, which usually, um, you know, people would come up to you and ask for an autograph or ask for a picture and it would just be, you know, what a few seconds of your time. But these were instances where people would come in and have a proper conversation with you about how they're so, they can't wait to see me back and they can't wait to see me play and what, what I mean to them. And it was just different. It was a different communication. It was a different way of telling, you know, and every person helped me feel better. There's no doubt. But it was, it was chefs coming from the kitchen and there were pilots coming from the cockpit. And it was just an experience I don't think I would have ever felt. And maybe because I never wanted to feel that like huge responsibility that I did have this impact and I always wanted to keep impacting and always be the right example. Maybe that that's why I never quite.

Starting point is 01:49:15 But I do think that subconsciously I didn't want to give into that because maybe that would have added more pressure, you know, because as I said before, like my parents never made me feel that if I did or I didn't make it, that it would be all right to go back to where we started. Yeah, it was just, it was a very eye-opening moment. Now you had your first sponsor, as I understand it, when you were 11. Yeah, Nike. So when you are getting that amount of attention and when you have adulation from fans and chefs and so on, it would seem to me a very human temptation and very easy to get a very big head and for that to affect your life and performance and so on. How do you, how do you counteract that? Or how do you avoid that? Because that's been the downfall of many, many people who've been in the limelight for various things. I will say that I'm a fairly realistic person. And I know I've been through a lot. And so I, I face, I faced a lot of grief. I faced a lot of

Starting point is 01:50:27 press. I faced a lot of success. I faced a lot of, um, boardroom meetings. I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot in my years. And at the end of it is it's all, a lot of it is it's all a lot of it is superficial and a lot of it almost seems um not human like superhuman but behind everything there's a very human person you know there's a very normal there's a i'm very much a simple human being that i mean i i've been fortunate to make good money for my career, but those things are never things that make me the happiest. And I know that and I realize that the values that you have in your life are much smaller than that. And they bring so many more rewards than money could ever could ever bring you. Of course, it's helpful. And knowing that I, you know, it puts a huge smile on my face that I can, um, that I can support my grandparents and that I can buy them a home and that I know they're going to be comfortable and they can have their garden and grow their cucumbers and that my

Starting point is 01:51:35 cousins can have a proper education. And that feeling is incredible, but that's, and that's a feeling that of course money brings you, but I think the value, I mean, like I said, the relationship that I've had with my parents, you know, they're, they're also very strong people and they, they will tell me if, if something, you know, if they're, if they see that something's going on or if my decisions are not correct, and they're very real. And I surround myself with real people. You know, I want to, I'm a very honest person myself. I think that's part of the Russian character. I say it like it is.

Starting point is 01:52:16 Like, I'm very straight on about what I feel. And that's sometimes gotten me into trouble, you know, just based on maybe I should keep a few opinions to myself, but I like this idea of tell me how you feel about things. Tell me, tell me straight up, you know, don't go around. Don't, you know, maybe I, this, this word maybe is, is brutal. It's like neither here nor there. So's hard it's definitely hard because from a young age i could have made so many different decisions and um that could have got me to different places what is one of the worst decisions that you avoided making or one of the best decisions that your parents helped you make i mean at that age it was a lot of decisions that my parents made. But I think from a business point of view, I've been able to be associated with many great brands. And there was a lot of opportunities, especially when I was young, to make what I like to call quick money. It's like wire, wire in the bank, you show up for a shoot and you do it and you

Starting point is 01:53:25 smile and you leave and, and there you are. Um, and that is, it's not that it's, it's great that you have this company and this brand that, you know, has tracked you down and has seen you and has studied you and wants you to be a part of their brand. But I've always felt like the best decisions I've made are based on real partnerships, like real understanding of what a company of what myself wants from each other and why we want to work together. And I really believe that's one of the reasons I've, I've had these partnerships for such a long time. Um, I mean, one example is with Nike. I mean, it's, it's so much more than just me wearing a swoosh on the court. Um, like I, I go into a store and I take pride in the fact that it looks, I was actually, I was walking,

Starting point is 01:54:18 um, around the other day and someone came up to me and said, wow, you look like you could, you could be like a Nike billboard. And I was, you know, and you kind of, and I, I looked, I didn't know if that was, you know, funny or not, or they were like making fun of what I was wearing, but I looked at her and I was like, yeah. And then she said, oh, wow, you're Maria Sharapova. Of course you are. They pay you to, they pay to wear that. And I said, no, actually you have no idea how happy I am to wear this. Like you, you kind of grow a fondness of the people that you work with of the, there's so much that goes into a campaign, a, a product, a, and I love that stuff. I personally, I love knowing I got, I went to the Nike campuses, um, after my Harvard experience and I followed around.

Starting point is 01:55:06 Um, I went into meetings and I kind of shadowed, I was like a little ghost and all these meetings cause I wanted to learn about like product development. That was at Beaverton or? Yeah. Nice. So I went into these meetings and I just, I wanted to know why a product is dropped and why this material is used and why that material is being developed. And, um, there's just so much incredible technology. I just, I love fashion. I

Starting point is 01:55:32 love creativity. So I got to learn a lot about that, but you take great pride in the people that you work with and, and the decisions that I, that I made, um, that started with either a friendship or a partnership where you understand the company and you know the people are the ones that have grown. I mean, you're playing the long game in a lot of ways. And I think there are many people who feel like they know a lot about you. So my last two questions are about things that people might not know about you. And hopefully there's a lot of that in this conversation already. But the first one is if you had to give a Ted talk about something you are not known for, no tennis, for instance,

Starting point is 01:56:16 what would you talk about? What is the personal obsession that few people know about or something you're good at that few people know about or, or something you're good at that few people know about that you would talk about or anything? I don't know if I'm good at, but I, and I don't know if I'd necessarily do a Ted talk on it, but I have this, I have a huge passion for architecture and, um, yeah, I've, I think I've always said that if I wasn't a tennis player, I would love to be an architect. I find it's my happy place when I am able to drive around Palm Springs or drive around Tuscany and see the differences and beams and windows. And I love studying that. And I spent a few years building a home myself and

Starting point is 01:57:06 that process, like I feel if I had the time, which I don't have at the moment, I would just do for fun. Um, so yeah, that would be something that I'm passionate about, but not many people know. What do you like about it? And do you have any favorite types of architecture or architects, anything books? Yeah, absolutely. Um, some some from neutra to frank gary um i love like the indoor and outdoor feel and i love when when architects are able to bring nature into a home and make it feel like you're living outside but you're kind of in this cocoon environment i don't know if that makes sense but i've oh yeah i've just always been fascinated by how someone can have an idea

Starting point is 01:57:52 and draw some lines and two years later you have structure and you have placement and you have a floor plan and you have this maze and it actually started from a young age because i growing up in florida i went i was invited to um for a few sleepovers and i would go to a sleepover you know at a rich at that time is like a rich person's home that had four or five bedrooms and i'd never seen a home that had four or five bedrooms before it was like what are all these rooms for why is there like two dining rooms like why isn't one enough um and that's when i became fascinated with floor plans and um how like something connects to another thing and like the usage of space and and then details like colors and materials um yeah it was just always really appealing what is your personal favorite color

Starting point is 01:58:45 um i love neutral color so i love grays and darks and no browns wow i don't want to say black because that's i mean when i say someone a little girl asked me the other day what's your favorite color i was because she wanted she wanted to draw something for me. And I was like, I was about to say black. And then I was like, oh, no, she's not going to like me if I say black. So now every time someone asks me my favorite color, I'm like, yellow. It sounds so much happier than black. Yeah, I guess it's hard to say to a little girl who wants to draw you something black

Starting point is 01:59:25 like the grim reapers cape exactly uh so i i ended up with yellow that's your cover story so very last one and uh we'll see what we get is what is an unusual habit or an absurd thing that you love? And I'll give you an example, an example of this. I asked Cheryl Strayed this question who wrote wild, which was made into a movie and amazing woman. And she said,

Starting point is 01:59:56 every sandwich I get has to be in uniform layers. So every bite is as similar to the next as possible. So if she gets a sandwich and like all the avocados are kind of over on one side or whatever, she'll reopen it and rearrange it so that every bite is the same. Now I'm not saying you have to have something like that, but does anything come to mind, an unusual habit, a weird object, an absurd thing, anything that you love that is a little odd? I have a few random things. Like I always put my left shoe on before my right and not be, not just a tennis shoe, but like any shoe. It's like, I never, when I'm at a store and I'm give you a strange look. Then like for my match court outfits, I don't like to wear, usually people like to wear the same outfit. So if they like did well in it, they wear it again. I mean, they wash it, but then wear it again, or maybe they

Starting point is 02:01:02 don't wash it. I don't know. So I do the opposite. I don't wear it again. I alternate. So you never, you now, does that mean? I don't want to wear the same exact one. I'll wear the same looking outfit, but I have a few different ones. Okay. But never the exact same outfit again. I love it. Not in that same tournament. When you win a huge, I, you know, I feel like I'm making a liar of myself, but when you win a big tournament, do you have a favorite cheat food or anything that you celebrate with? I love sweets. I love, I love dolce de leche. Oh my God. I love, we have this cake in Russia. It's called the the medavik it's a honey cake um i could eat that

Starting point is 02:01:47 every day for breakfast is it like baklava or is it different no it's a little it's not as crunchy it's a soft cake i see it's a layer cake but it's a soft cake and yeah i i love cherry like when my grandmother makes cherry jam i could eat that by the spoons. That's like a childhood memory. Yeah, so I love sweets. Makes sense for Sugarpova. For an athlete, right? Makes a lot of sense.

Starting point is 02:02:17 And, well, it's great for glycogen replenishment, right? For those people wondering, dulce de leche, also known as the crack cocaine of Argentina, delicious on vanilla ice cream. And if it's going to keep other people up until four in the morning because it'll drive them nuts, RDLs, Romanian deadlifts, right? Yes. Just so that doesn't bother anybody. Maria, this has been so much fun. I really appreciate you taking the time. Oh, no. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 02:02:46 I really encourage people to learn more about your story. I cannot wait to read Unstoppable. And people can find you at mariasharapova.com, Facebook. Yes. Facebook.com forward slash Sharapova, and then Twitter and Instagram are both at Maria Sharpova. Do you have any final ask of the people listening or a suggestion for the audience? Anything that comes to mind? No, I just, I hope that they continue listening to your work because when I started, I was so impressed by your interviews

Starting point is 02:03:20 and the way you're able to get a lot out of people in a conversational form. And so keep listening. And yeah, and I'm, I'm so, I'm really excited about, you know, the, the opportunity that I had to share my story with other people and to share my journey. And, you know, sometimes we think that our story is not special and everyone's story is very special. And I've just been so excited about being able to put it on paper and for everyone, you know, to read, to read it. So yeah, it's a big, it's, you know, I've always been a very personal and private individual. So it's sort of a big moment for me because I share a lot of frame of mind that I had as a young girl and as an athlete, as a person, as a daughter in relationships. So there's a lot I share that I never thought a few years ago I would be able

Starting point is 02:04:13 to. It's exciting. It's a little scary. It puts you in a vulnerable place. But I'm very looking forward to, to hearing what people think of it as well. And a congratulations B we talked about toughness as one of your defining competitive advantages. The fact that you recorded your own audio book. Oh my God. No, I was like, no one's giving me enough credit for this. Oh my God. Like you think walking through or running a marathon in the desert with no water is hard, like recording an entire audio book. I had to take a couple of days off after that because I was training in the mornings and then I'd go and I'd record six to eight hours for

Starting point is 02:04:56 three days. Good God. And I called my team at the end of the third and I said, I, first of all, I have no voice. And second of all, you have off tomorrow because I'm not coming. Yeah, it is one of the most comprehensively exhausting experiences you can imagine, which is why I've never recorded one of my own audiobooks. I've done bits and pieces and then I've tapped out. Right. Well, what I liked at the end of it was that after I read it, and when you read out loud, it was, I didn't want to change a single thing.

Starting point is 02:05:31 Yeah. And that was when I... That is incredibly rare. That was a big milestone. Incredibly rare. Incredibly, incredibly rare. Which means that the book has to be really, really good. I just, that isn't a really clear, no, no, I'm telling you,

Starting point is 02:05:47 that's a really, really clear indicator. If you didn't change, A, it means that it's good. B, it means that our dear friend, Mr., well, I'm kidding, I don't know, but Rich Cohen, I know of his work, really got the voice right, which is really, really hard to do. Absolutely. So I'm excited to do. Absolutely. I'm excited to check it out.

Starting point is 02:06:08 Everybody, check it out. And Unstoppable, you can find it everywhere. And thank you so much for the time, Maria. I know that your time is precious, and I know you have a lot of demands on your time, so I really appreciate it. Of course. Thank you. I appreciate it. And to everybody listening, you can find these show notes as usual, links to everything we talked about, links to the architects she named, links to Unstoppable Self, links to everything in the

Starting point is 02:06:36 show notes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And as always, thank you for allowing me to make this my job, I guess. And until next time, thanks for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel

Starting point is 02:07:04 of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one.

Starting point is 02:07:48 And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Ascent Protein, the cleanest, least processed protein I've ever consumed. And I have tried just about everything. Since well before the 4-Hour Body, I've started my day with 20 to 30 grams of protein. First thing, that has been part of my routine. But I don't always have the time or necessarily the desire to cook an entire meal. So what to do? Protein powders can be a fast way to get this protein need met, but most products are full of crap. They're bleached, they have excess sugar,

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Starting point is 02:09:42 workout, this is a fantastic option. It is arguably the best that I've found. So again, check it out. Ascentprotein.com forward slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by Kettle and Fire, which makes some of the best bone broth and certainly the most convenient that I've ever found. And I have a big stack of them on my kitchen counter right now. I have one container every morning. And this first came highly recommended to me by past podcast guests, such as Amelia Boone, who's a four-time world champion in world's toughest mutter, Spartan Race, et cetera, and Dr. Dominic D'Agostino, the incredible hulk of scientific research. You should check him out too. But

Starting point is 02:10:21 there are a few things that make Kettle and Fire special. Number one, they are the first shelf stable, in other words, never frozen bone broth that uses bones from 100% grass fed, organically raised animals. So you are what you eat, ate, if that makes sense. So it's very important that you understand if you're consuming animal protein, what they consume. They also use longer cook times, 20 plus hours, which means more collagen and other nutrients. For instance, they contain 19 times more collagen than one of their close competitors. And an independent lab confirmed this. I'll leave the competitor's name out of it because I don't want to get sued, but that's the case. And it is not frozen. So thanks to many millions of dollars of packaging equipment,

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #261: Mental Performance, Work-Life Balance, and the Rise to the Top - Maria Sharapova

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #261: Mental Performance, Work-Life Balance, and the Rise to the Top - Maria Sharapova

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