The Tim Ferriss Show - #272: Sir Richard Branson — The Billionaire Maverick of the Virgin Empire

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Starting point is 00:03:34 These are the skill sets that help each of these interviewees become the best at what they do. And our guest today is none other than the one and only Sir Richard Branson, at Richard Branson in pretty much everything. He's Richard Branson on Twitter, Richard Branson on Facebook, R. Branson on LinkedIn. And if you don't know who he is, Richard Branson is the founder and chairman of the Virgin Group. He is a world-famous entrepreneur, adventurer, activist, and certainly business icon. He's launched a dozen billion-dollar businesses and hundreds of other companies. The origins are crazy. The later stories are even crazier. And his new autobiography, Finding My Virginity. And I have a long history with

Starting point is 00:04:26 Richard's books, which we get into in this episode. But his new autobiography, Finding My Virginity, shares the candid details of a lifetime of triumphs and failures, both of which have been very spectacular and provides an intimate look at his quest to push boundaries, break rules, and seek new frontiers. This episode was recorded as he was bouncing around the globe, and primarily in Marrakech, depending on how you want to pronounce it, Morocco. So the music you hear in the background is due to that. We worked very hard to get this scheduled. I loved this conversation.

Starting point is 00:05:09 I've heard a lot of conversations with Richard before, including in person. I think this one really delivers the goods. We covered a lot and got into a lot of details, talked about many things I'd never heard him talk about before, including his thoughts on clean meat. If you don't know what that means, we'll get into it. Blockchain, cryptocurrency, how he's coped with dyslexia and how his parents helped make him resilient. The behind the scenes stories of deal making, PR stunts, big wins, and in some cases, big losses, the habits and life decisions he's used to maintain high energy levels for decades now, how he caps or limits downside risk, even though he's perceived as a

Starting point is 00:05:53 risk taker, how and why he takes, say, regular one to two months, sometimes longer, breaks from alcohol, favorite books, lessons learned from Nelson Mandela and many others and much, much more. We cover a ton. I was really nervous about this episode for a host of reasons and could not be happier with how it turned out. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed it and definitely find Finding My Virginity at all fine booksellers. You can check it out. I'm certainly going to be digging in myself. And without further ado, please enjoy my extremely wide-ranging conversation with Sir Richard Branson. Richard, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Nice to talk to you. I have been looking forward to this conversation for more than 20 years.

Starting point is 00:06:50 All right. Well, that's a lot to live up to. It is a lot to live up to. Anyway, congratulations on all you've achieved as well. Thank you. No, I appreciate it. We've bumped into each other here and then, uh, different points around the world, but, uh, I've always wanted to sit down and very selfishly ask you a lot of questions ever since I bought your first

Starting point is 00:07:15 autobiography, uh, losing my virginity and have carried it with me since college through starting all of my businesses. Since I thought we could just begin, I suppose, with current events. I've been following you around the planet to have this conversation, which I'm thrilled that we're able to have because you've gone through some pretty extenuating circumstances recently. Could you describe for us, I saw your Instagram post, for instance, about retreating into the wine cellar under your home or the main building, I suppose it was, on Necker Island. Where are you right now? And could you describe what that experience was like? It's a strange thing to say, but I've had the privilege of being through four hurricanes before this one, and about one every 10 years in the Caribbean. And, you know, a force one,

Starting point is 00:08:07 force two hurricane by and large is magnificent. It's, you know, it's dramatic. The sea, the sea throughs, the trees bend, the, you know, incredible lightning storms. And it's one of those sort of marvels of life. And, you know, yes, there's damage. You know, trees come down. But generally speaking, you know, the damage is, you know, you can overcome that damage. This hurricane was altogether different. And, I mean, you've got sort of force five, category force five hurricanes is the highest it goes. The hurricane that was coming to hit us was actually category seven.

Starting point is 00:08:45 They didn't even have it in the books. You know, I was definitely going to stay on island because we had 60 members of our staff on island. But I knew that it would be foolish to be, you know, up in the main house, you know, watching nature at its worst. We had to get into a very, very, very secure area. And so the moment it started hitting, we went down into a sort of concrete bunker at the bottom of the house. And for five hours, I mean, it screamed. I mean, it was, you know, the whole concrete bunker shuddered. And, you know, there were young girls as well as the guys, there were a couple of children in the bunker. There was a number of tears. Water was pouring through.

Starting point is 00:09:28 But I don't think any of us feared for our lives. We knew that we were in a strong area. We felt for 600 flamingos on the lake. We felt for the lemurs that were still outside. We felt for the people of the rest of the caribbean and the british virgin islands who lived in you know wooden shacks and uh and buildings that were nothing as strong as strong and then equally suddenly it stopped i mean it was suddenly there was a complete hush outside and we waited 15 minutes and we couldn't work out whether this

Starting point is 00:10:03 the end of the storm uh or whether we were in the eye of the storm and we stuck 15 minutes and we couldn't work out whether this was the end of the storm or whether we were in the eye of the storm. And we stuck our head out of the door and I just looked at complete utter devastation. It was as if a hurricane had hit the island. And, you know, I don't often cry over possessions or, you know, being damaged. But, yeah, definitely, I think all of us had tears in our eyes. Within five minutes, the other side of the storm hit and we threw ourselves back in to the hurricane shelter and we huddled there for another four or five hours.

Starting point is 00:10:36 And when we finally came out, we surveyed the damage. And on our own island, it was pretty devastating, to say the damage. And, you know, on our own island, it was pretty devastating, to say the least. Within 24 hours, we'd started going around the rest of the British Virgin Islands. And, I mean, 90% of homes were destroyed or nearly destroyed. Incredible that more life wasn't lost. I mean, and incredible the resilience of the Caribbean people. I mean, stories that they told, like one person told me of the house disappearing above their head with their children,

Starting point is 00:11:14 their grandchildren in it, running to the neighbor's house. That then disappeared, running into a wall. The wall started collapsing and they ended up or the whole family in a cesspit up to their uh knees and in shit and and but they survived it and uh you know there's a 13 it was a 13 year old girl who within three days was uh set up a a makeshift school outside teaching kids younger than her.

Starting point is 00:11:47 And so anyway, very resilient people. And, you know, the last month I just spent trying to work out ways of seeing whether the whole of the Caribbean, but the whole of the British Virgin Islands can come back better and stronger and, you know, cleaner and, you know, see if we can get some positive things that come out of what's obviously been, you know, been a sad event. So I'd love to dig into your, I suppose we could call it familiarity with what some people would look at as near-death experiences. This is from a New Yorker profile,

Starting point is 00:12:24 but you hold records, and the writer observed you might also hold the record for the number of highly publicized near-death experiences. This was some time ago. I mean, this is 10 years ago, 2007, but pulled from the sea five times by helicopters, once from a frozen lake during one of your attempts to circle the globe, crashed into the Algerian desert. The Chinese Air Force threatened to shoot one of your balloons out of the sky at one point. And it goes on and on. When you are in circumstances like that, and you mentioned you had a lot of staff down in the basement with you,

Starting point is 00:12:58 what did you say to those people if there were people there who were very, very worried or perhaps panicking in some sense? What did you say or what did you do in those circumstances? I think humor is important. You know, putting on a brave face, you know, cracking jokes, plenty of hugs. I mean, I think hugs are important. You know, but I think, you know, like when we were all down in the bunker, I mean, just to try to reassure them that, you know, that even 200 mile an hour winds were not going to bring a sort of concrete, you know, in a capsule up in the, you know, flying around the world. And when things went wrong, you know, there were just two of us generally. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:55 both of you have got to try to keep the spirits of the other person up. And if you're going to survive, the only way you're going to survive is by keeping focused, by staying positive, even if you are facing almost certain death. I mean, it's but, you know, you're definitely you're definitely going to die unless you stay focused and stay positive and fight to the bitter end. And, you know, there have been circumstances where, you know, on paper, we had a well over 90% chance of not coming home. And, and I think by staying focused by staying positive, and and with, you know, a big dose of good fortune, these are some of the exploits that you're known for. But if we rewind the clock back to childhood, I'd read that one of your headmasters had observed, or he said to you, actually, I predict you will either end up in prison or a millionaire. I don't know if that is true, what do you think this headmaster saw in you or observed in you at such a young age that would lead to such a statement? It is true. It was his parting words to me as I left school, aged just turning 16. And, you know, I think that, you know, first of all, I am dyslexic. I was dyslexic. So conventional schooling definitely passed me by. And I was somebody that, you know, felt very strongly about some of the issues in the world. The biggest issue in the world at that time was a very unjust war, the Vietnamese War.

Starting point is 00:15:46 I mean, most wars are very unjust, but this was yet another very, very unjust war. And I, like many young people, was determined to try to campaign very hard to stop the war. And I thought maybe the best way of doing it was to launch a magazine for young people that could be distributed not just among schools, but universities as well, which would be a campaigning magazine, and it would give young people the voice that they didn't have. You know, I started planning this magazine at school and working out the school phone box, trying to sell advertising and, you know, rigging up James Baldwin or Jean-Paul Sartre or, you know, Vanessa Redgrave or anybody I felt who, you know, Tariq Ali and Bernard Cohen-Bendit from Germany,

Starting point is 00:16:37 anybody I felt that, you know, that could contribute to a magazine, a campaigning magazine like this and getting them to contribute. And surprisingly, you know, managed to get enough advertising to cover the printing and the paper costs of the first issue. So when the headmaster called me in and said, you know, you either must stay at school and stop doing this magazine idea of yours and concentrate on your schoolwork or you're going to have to leave school to run your magazine. It was an easy decision for me. And I'm grateful to the headmaster for being such a foolish headmaster.

Starting point is 00:17:20 I mean, obviously, it would be much better if I could have done both. And I think it would have been good for the school. But and I met him a few years later. And, you know, and, you know, he was he was very gracious and congratulated us on our success and so on. But but I think, you know, I did end up in prison for a night a few years later. And I definitely that was before I'd become a millionaire. So I think, you know, I remember the headmaster's words and I remember how unpleasant being in prison for a night is. And saying to myself, you know, I will never, ever, ever do anything that warrants me going to prison again. So it was, I think everybody should spend a night in prison.

Starting point is 00:18:04 So he actually got it right on both counts. What did you do that led or what happened that led to that night in prison? What happened was that whilst we had the magazine, we started in the magazine a little mail order company for people who wanted to buy music. And we called this mail order company Virgin Records. Nobody had sold music cheaply before. So we discounted it by 10 to 30 percent off. And we sold music that we loved. So Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, you know, it was rock and roll music rather than the sort of Andy Williams and the mixture of rubbish that, you know, other rubbish

Starting point is 00:18:51 that was out there. And so the public loved it. You know, it resonated with young people and we had good taste and we were aiming at kids with good taste. And then one day somebody ordered some records from Belgium from us, a big group, a big, large amount of records from Belgium. And so we've, you know, we got a lorry and we drove across the, down to Dover and across to France. And when we across to France. And when we got to France, they said, where are you selling these records? And we said in Belgium. And they said, well, you're not allowed to come through France and sell them in Belgium without a carnet, which means that you're not going to leave them in France. So you're going to have to go back to England.

Starting point is 00:19:42 And as we were driving back to England, we realized that we had all these pieces of paper signed that said that we'd exported them. And now if we could sell them in England, we wouldn't have to pay the 35% tax. So foolishly, we sold them in England. And what we didn't realize was that there were other bigger retail chains doing something very similar in a much more professional way. And there was a group of customs and excise people who were investigating this

Starting point is 00:20:11 idea. And anyway, so we got busted and fortunately didn't get a criminal record because they said, you can pay the fine off over three years. And as long as you pay the fine off, you won't get a criminal record. And actually, it spurred on the opening of, you know, we had to open 30 or 40 record stores in order to pay off Richard's fine and keep myself out of prison. And so very, very grateful to Customs and Excise for giving us that incentive. What did your parents say to you at that time when you got in trouble and ended up in jail? And how old were you at the time, if you could place us? I was 19 years old, so still a teenager,

Starting point is 00:20:54 still just about allowed to be naughty. I remember I was in Dover Magistrates Court and the judge said he wanted, you ten thousand pounds bail and and i said you know look there's no way i can afford ten thousand pounds bail and so he said well you know i'm sorry but you'll have to go to prison and wait and await the trial then and my mother stood up and said well what what what about if i pledge the family home um would you with that would that be all right and the judge was good enough to say that that would be fine. If you pledge the family house, that would be fine. So I gave my mother a very, very big hug.

Starting point is 00:21:34 And many, many years later, I mean, right, 50 years later, nearly, we're now working very hard in America to try to help people who can't afford bail get bail. And, you know, there's this awful situation in the States, for instance, where, you know, where if you've got money or if you've got a house to pledge, you don't go to prison for six months awaiting your trial. But if you're a poor, often black, you know, you end up languishing in prison for a few months while waiting for your trial, even although you can be completely innocent. So obviously, lots of personal experiences come back and have influenced my life later on. Well, I'd like to talk about influence.

Starting point is 00:22:19 You mentioned your mother. And in preparing for this conversation, I took a closer look at your mom. And I have to say, what I was going to do is not mention the last name and read this description. But your mom also wrote a book called Moms of the Word, The High Flying Adventures of Eve Branson. I just have to read a few lines here to give people some context. A classically trained ballet dancer, she appeared in racy West End productions, disguised herself as a boy to take glider lessons, enlisted in the Women's Royal Navy Service, and then embarked on a series of harrowing adventures as a star girl, air hostess on the ill-fated British South American Airways. And it goes on and on. This seems to potentially explain a lot uh and i was i was curious to know uh specifically when you were a kid struggling with dyslexia and i'm not sure if it was even properly diagnosed

Starting point is 00:23:15 at the time but how did your your mom uh respond to that what did she tell you when you were having trouble with school or having trouble reading how did your parents or your mother help you navigate that what was the experience like yeah first of all i'm lucky i mean i i have a very extraordinary mother and a lovely father and we're a very very close-knit family and that's fortunately continued with myself my wife and children and so on ever since so uh so that's given us a fantastic foundation as as as a family when i was young the word dyslexia i don't think existed i don't think the word entrepreneur exists either uh except maybe in the french dictionary and so they you know so it was just assumed that i was thick and, you know, they just got used to, you know, these dreadful marks that came back on my maths paper or my English paper and so on.

Starting point is 00:24:14 And I think that made it that much easier when I actually said that I want to leave school, you know, age 15 uh i think although that my dad walked me around the garden you know three times instead of just once um you know by the end of the walk and i remember him saying you know look at least you know what you want to do at 15 i didn't know what i wanted to do when i was 22 i respect you for that and go give it a go and if it doesn't work out we'll try to help you get an ed you know a formal education again. You know, my mother, you know, she, you know, her whole approach in bringing up her children was one where she would have been arrested today. In those days, she could get away with it. So, you know, at age four or five, she would, you know, shove me out of the car,

Starting point is 00:25:01 you know, two or three miles from grandmother's house and tell me to make my own way there. She would, you know, put me on a bicycle age seven or eight and tell me to ride, you know, 300 miles in the pouring rain, again, to grandmother's house. And her attitude was, you know, if we survived, you know, we'd be the stronger for it. She wouldn't allow us to watch television, for instance. We had to get out there and do things and uh and you know so she'd push us out of out of the house and you know tell us to come back in the evening and you know and um you know get out there go and climb trees rescue cats you know um and i'll see you see you tonight so you know we lived in the countryside and um you know it was a it you know it was a it was a fun a fun upbringing um and um, but a very loving upbringing.

Starting point is 00:25:48 I mean, it may not sound like it. She wasn't actually trying to kill us. She did love us as well. What would she say to you? One, for instance, it's raining out, you're in the car. Would she give you any warning and what would she say to you if if it was raining and she wanted you to get out and ride a bike home in the pouring rain was there any uh any kind of lead up any any lesson that she would impart before that i'm just thinking i don't have any kids myself but i

Starting point is 00:26:18 think about parenting a lot what what can you replay for us just one of those scenes so we we know how it was presented to you? I think the pushing us out of the car was most likely. I was most likely having a little debate with my younger sister and say it wasn't really, yeah, this is going to be a life lesson. It was more shoving the brakes on, pushing us out of the car, slamming the door and then driving off. Yeah, as I say, we did survive. And I mean, I remember distinctly when I was five on that very occasion, walking across the field. And I was young enough to decide I wanted to get my own back on her. And I saw a farmhouse and I walked very slowly towards the farmhouse. So I wasn't too worried because I could see the lights of the farmhouse. But I was damned if I was going to do it quickly because I

Starting point is 00:27:16 thought she's going to have to suffer this time. And she did suffer. And I don't think she has readily pushed me out of the car. But anyway, no, it's fun. I mean, I've just, you know, my mom's 9094 now. And I've just, I've just saw her a few minutes ago. And she will never stop. I mean, she's got an idea a minute. And, you know, we've always had to run to keep up with that and uh you know put the two of us together it's a dangerous combination so i i think that many people have the impression of you as a fly by the seat of the pants entrepreneur who throws caution to the wind and bets the farm on many, many things. And what I'd love to talk about is maybe the alternative to that or the compliment to that, we don't have to do either or, which is risk mitigation. Because the more I look at what you've done in many cases,

Starting point is 00:28:21 not all cases, but in many cases, you seem like a master at mitigating risk and capping the downside. So I was hoping maybe you could talk about, I believe it was, I think you were on route, if you clarify for me, to BVI and there was a flight canceled in Puerto Rico, but how you actually ended up in the airline business, because I find it such an illustrative and helpful story, if you wouldn't mind telling people a little bit about the origins. Well, I was in my 20s. I'd been away from my girlfriend for three weeks. I was coming back to see her that night. I was in Puerto Rico about six in the evening. I was heading to the Virgin Islands and American Airlines announced that they were going to move the flight to the next morning because they didn't have enough passengers. And I was damned if I was going to wait for the next morning. My girlfriend hadn't seen me for three

Starting point is 00:29:23 weeks and I hadn't seen her for three weeks. So I was determined to get there that night. So I went to the back of the airport, hoping that my credit card wouldn't bounce. I rented a plane. I borrowed a blackboard. And as a joke, I wrote Virgin Airlines one way, $29 or $39 to the British Virgin Islands. And I went out amongst all the people who'd been bumped and I filled up my first plane. And as we arrived in the BVI about eight or nine o'clock that night, one of the passengers tapped me on the shoulder and said, you know, sharpen up the service a bit, Richard, and you could be in the airline business. And so it got me thinking,

Starting point is 00:30:07 you know, airlines do bump people. You know, most airlines don't look after people. You know, the staff generally don't smile. The food was dreadful. I mean, so the next morning I was on Necker Island and I rang up Boeing and I asked to talk to the sales department and a wonderful man who I got to know very well over the years called R.J. Wilson answered the phone and the call went roughly like this I said you know my name is Richard Branson and I'm interested in buying a second-hand 747 and R.J. Wilson said well you know would you mind telling me you know what you do? And I said, I'm in the record business. I've got the Rolling Stones.

Starting point is 00:30:48 I've got the Sex Pistols. I've got Janet Jackson and lots of wonderful artists. And I could sort of feel that he was, you know, like feeling that I was slightly wasting his time. But he said, and you're based in England. I said, well, our company's based in England. And so he carried on talking, and you're based in England. And I said, well, our company's based in England. And so he carried on talking. And subsequently, I learned that he carried on talking because they were so fed up with British Airways always legging it over them because they had no competition.

Starting point is 00:31:15 And they thought in the back of his head, in mind, he was thinking maybe that by having a competitor to British Airways, they'd be able to have a bit more leverage. So he said, look, I'll tell you what, I'll come and see you. You know, we do happen to have one secondhand 747. But with a name like Virgin, I really feel you should change the name. With a name like Virgin, people will think you're not going to go the whole way. I said, well, I'll thank you for your advice and I'll think about that. So I then talked to my fellow record company team and they went into complete panic mode. I mean, you know, what is Richard doing, thinking of taking us into the airline business?

Starting point is 00:32:01 We have the most successful independent record label in the world. You know, we just signed the Rolling Stones. Everything's going from strength to strength. And he's going to put everything at risk by going into the airline business. And so what I said to them was, look, I promise that I'll only go into the airline business on one condition, and that is if I can persuade Boeing to let me hand the plane back into the airline business on one condition, and that is if I can persuade Boeing to let me hand the plane back at the end of the first year to protect the downside. So I knew that the worst that could happen would be, you know, maybe six months of the profits of Virgin Records we would lose if it didn't work out. And Boeing agreed to it. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:32:41 when the end of the first year came, instead of handing the plane back, people loved Virgin Atlantic and people flocked to it and we had a spirit about it, which is very different from British Airways. We ended up buying a couple more second-hand 747s from Boeing and then over the years since, we bought some hundreds of planes

Starting point is 00:33:03 from three or four different airlines we set up over the years since, we've bought some hundreds of planes from three or four different airlines we set up over the years from Boeing. So R.J. Wilson certainly deserves a pat on the back at Boeing, I think. So how did you convince R.J. to agree to allow you to return the plane if things didn't work out? What was the pitch or what was the what was the approach well we liked each other which which i think is always important in in any negotiation and you know he admitted that you know one of the reasons they wanted to see us in business was to you know to enable them to have a little bit of competition with british airways

Starting point is 00:33:40 and you know i think you know i you know I think we showed him that we managed to build a very successful global record company. And, you know, unlike other people, I mean, you know, I argued that being an, you know, being in entertainment, actually, you know, that's important in the airline business that most airline owners just um uh just you know see airlines as a as a way of transporting people from a to b um but actually entertaining people uh is is important and if people are locked in a tin can for eight or nine hours or 12 hours they want to be entertained and that you know that i felt we could bring our entertainment skills to that you know when british airways heard that we were going to go into the business,

Starting point is 00:34:26 they dismissively said, Lord King famously said, too young to fly, too old to rock and roll. And followed up by saying, you know, what on earth is somebody from the entertainment business going into the airline business for? But of course, that's just what British Airways didn't realize was they were not, you know, they were dumping a lump of chicken on somebody's lap. They were showing, you know, maybe one film that people were lucky on the screen to children, to grannies, to business people. There was no choice. There was, you know, they had cabin crew who weren't given the tools to do a good job and therefore they never smiled. And, and so it went on. And so, you know, exactly what the airline industry needed was an airline that could entertain people. You know, so we, when we launched Virgin Atlantic with our one plane, you know, we had standup bars, we had, you know, we had cabin crew were absolutely delighted delightful and you know love

Starting point is 00:35:26 what they were doing uh we had humor i mean we think we we showed the film airplane on the first flight you know when we're in the cockpit we had um you know we we told our passengers that they were going to see the the pilots and you know the screen came on and there was the backs of the heads of the pilots and you know it became it became apparent they had quite long hair and and then you know two famous cricketers turned around and handed each other a split they were the front pilots and then I took the split I was the pilot just behind them and um and there's definitely hush in the plane and uh just as we took off and and and and then I stood up so they could see I wasn't actually in the cockpit. And we pre-recorded that the day before.

Starting point is 00:36:13 And the whole plane just fell about laughing. And the journey over, the more champagne was drunk, I think, than on any flight before or after. And the pilot, he got into the sense of humor so you know he'd be flying along and he would let you have the plane slightly leaning to the right and and uh and then he would ask all the passengers on the right hand side of the plane sorry look it's just too many people parting on the right would some of you move over to the left please and then he would swing the plane a bit to the left. Anyway, it was a laugh a minute the whole way. But for anybody who's thinking,

Starting point is 00:36:54 my God, I would never fly on this man's airline. You know, I got the chief technical officer of British Caledonian to actually run our airline. You know, obviously safety is paramount if you're running an airline. And 35 years later, you know, we have many airlines and it's been, they've all been wonderfully run, but that doesn't preclude you entertaining people. That doesn't preclude humour. That doesn't preclude, you know, we're always trying to be cutting edge, you know, whether it's seat back videos, we, you know videos we you know we we push the industry to

Starting point is 00:37:25 invent a seat back video and we work five years before british airways with seat back videos giving people a choice and um you know so we love trying to you know cut through and do do things um differently and you know from from others and and i think that's why you know virgin atlantic has survived other airlines have done well i mean I mean, when we set up with one plane, we were competing with TWA, with Pan Am, with Air Florida, with Laker Airways, with People Express and so on. Most of these airlines with hundreds of planes and we had one plane. And the graveyard of airlines was massive. I mean, like people who tried to go into the airline business and failed. And over the next three or four years, pretty well all these airlines, including a lot of others there, Europe, Danair, all went bankrupt, you know,

Starting point is 00:38:17 and somehow this little David versus, you know, these Goliaths survived, you know, because, you know, because we offered a better product. And British Airways did not like it. I mean, they were absolutely determined to drive us out of business. And as they had driven out business, a lot of these other airlines. And they launched something called the Dirty Tricks campaign. I mean, it wasn't publicly known as the Dirty Tricks campaign in the early days because nobody knew it was going on. But they set up behind closed doors a group of people who illegally tapped our computer information and they would ring our passengers.

Starting point is 00:38:59 They would pretend, for instance, to be from Virgin and they would say, very sorry, your flight is being delayed, but we can move you on to a British Airways flight. Or people going into nightclubs that we owned in London. We had a big gay nightclub called Heaven, and they would rustle through the bins outside and try to find easels or anything that would look like maybe drugs would be taken in the club and then they would you know leak the stories to the news of the world um redox papers and uh try to damage us that way or they would have people going through my own rubbish bins uh which they got caught doing uh and um journalist rubbish bins that that we maybe um talked to, and they would try to spread stories about our finances. And in the end, we decided to take them to court.

Starting point is 00:39:51 And it was Christmas time. And we won the biggest libel damages in history against British Airways. And we distributed it to all our staff equally. And because it was Christmas time, it became known as the British Airways Christmas bonus. And I think our staff are hoping that British Airways will get up to their tricks again. But I mean, that helped anyway, keep them slightly more honest as the time went on. How did you identify the Dirty Tricks campaign? How did it become discovered?

Starting point is 00:40:30 It was, generally speaking, British Airways staff that came to us. I mean, particularly one particular individual who actually worked behind the locked doors, tapping our computer information, who felt very uncomfortable about it, you know, and others. I mean, you know, for instance, they had a team of people in New York who were going up to our passengers. They got out of their limousines to board a Virgin plane, again saying, I'm sorry, but the Virgin plane has been delayed or has a problem, but I've been sent here by Virgin to take you over to British Airways. And some of our passengers managed to rumble them on this one and let us know. So, you know, so it was a combination of different things.

Starting point is 00:41:10 I mean, there was one person was just caught red handed going through the rubbish bins. Yeah. So we were lucky to get it exposed. I mean, you know, one of the sad outcomes of this was they were also dumping capacity on the few routes that we had. And that's the normal trick of big airlines against small airlines. They can afford to lose money on a few routes to drive a competitor out of business. And then they'll jack the prices up once that competitor's out of business. And it was beginning to cost us some money. So I had to make a difficult decision. We had the most successful independent record label in the world by then. And I knew that the only way of being completely sure of keeping the airline going

Starting point is 00:41:59 and saving all the jobs for the record company was to sell one or the other. Now, the airline, we could never sell. So we talked to Thorny and I, and they bought the record company. And, you know, it was a billion dollars. And so, you know, it shouldn't have been an happy day. But actually, it was one of the saddest days of my life because selling a company is selling a pool. We built this company up from scratch. It's been tremendous fun building Virgin Records.

Starting point is 00:42:30 But we now had the far part to be sure that the staff of the record company's jobs were secure, but under different ownership, and the airline was secure. And with that billion dollars, we knew that British Airways would have to think twice before they most likely would realize that we were here to stay. Thank you for that explanation and context because it gives me a number of jumping off points.

Starting point is 00:42:58 The first being, I suppose, opportunity and risk assessment. So you strike me as a really good negotiator. By necessity, you'd have to be. If you had, say, a would-be entrepreneur or a university senior, someone who's about to graduate and go into the real world, and they tell you that they want to become a very good negotiator, a very good dealmaker, how would you train them or what would you recommend they do or read to become a better negotiator or dealmaker? Because you seem very, very astute and subtle in structuring things in very smart ways. What would you say to someone who wants to develop that skill set?

Starting point is 00:43:42 I'm sure that there must be ways of being taught it, but in my opinion, nothing beats personal experience. My education was being thrown into the jungle, being thrown into the real world, age 15 or 16, and having to survive. And it was an incredible education. And I you know, I learned about everything in life. You know, I traveled a lot. I met people all over the world. I had to do a lot of different negotiations. You know, I think as I've got older, I've realized that one of the most important things

Starting point is 00:44:20 about a negotiation is striking a deal that is fair to both sides. I also realized as I get older that you always come across the same people time and time again in life. And so your reputation is everything. You know, in my new book, Finding My Virginity, I talk about our dealings with Delta and how, you know, they felt that they'd legged us over in a clause in a contract and how they came to us to rectify it.

Starting point is 00:44:49 And that's something I'll never forget and most likely will be partners with Delta for the rest of my life because of that kind of approach. So I think if you realize that your reputation is all you have and your personal reputation, the reputation of your brand, then you've got to make sure that you're negotiating a deal that you're not going to be unhappy with and that you think of all the things that could potentially go wrong and how you can get out of it if something goes wrong. But equally important is trying to strike a fair balance with the people you're negotiating with. And when we're looking internally, you mentioned how your teammates at the record company thought you were crazy when you brought up the airline. Are there any business ideas that you're glad your co-workers or team have prevented you from doing?

Starting point is 00:45:46 As you know, my nickname is Dr. Yes. And, you know, I have books like Screw It, Just Do It. And I think, to be honest, if I want to do something, one of the advantages of owning the company is I can normally ultimately get away with it. I mean, I'll try, obviously, to carry people with me. And I'm sure there's been one or two things where I have bullied the process through, where I've regretted, well, not regretted, I've never regretted anything, but where perhaps I should have listened more to others. But I can't think of anything where they persuaded me not to do it. I think most likely, when it comes to a decision about whether to do something or not, I like to think of anything that, you know, where they persuaded me not to do it. I think most likely, you know, when it comes to decision about whether to do something or not, I like to think of myself as a benevolent dictator. That's the one thing I sort of generally get my own way on.

Starting point is 00:46:37 We would never have gone into space travel. We'll come to that, I'm sure, later on in this talk, unless I was willing to do things against the sensible, what would on paper be sensible advice of my fellow directors. We will definitely get to space travel. What I'm curious about, because it seems if I look at many of the businesses that you've started, the positioning is often against a particular incumbent in the case of, say, airlines, for instance, that seems to be a common element in a lot of the company or product launches. And I want to connect that with just some of your well-known

Starting point is 00:47:19 adventures. And you'll see where this is going in a second. I mean, you've driven a tank down Fifth Avenue, crossed the English Channel in an amphibious car, took a 407-foot jump off the Palms Casino Resort in Las Vegas, gone from Morocco to Hawaii in a hot air balloon. getting attention for the things that you do and the companies that you do, are there any particular best practices or a playbook that you have found to be very, or principles for that matter, helpful with the launching of a new company or product? I don't think so. I mean, I'm a great believer in trying, if your team worked really hard to to launch a new business with you or for you the least i think i can do is is make a fool of myself make sure that that new business ends up on the front pages of the newspapers rather than an anecdote on the pages of the newspapers so if that means having to use myself to put the new company on the map, I will do so. And I will try to do it in a way that makes people smile and that doesn't horribly backfire on me. Occasionally, it has backfired.

Starting point is 00:48:32 And I suppose it's like being a host to a party. I mean, if you're the host of the party, if you stand in the corner of the room and you sip your sherry and stand around with your fellow directors all in suits everyone's going to have a thoroughly dull party and yeah nobody will have a good time if you're you know the host of the party and you're first in the swing pool and and everybody else jump in too uh yeah they may be a bit cold for the rest of the evening but you know they're going to have a great evening and i think you know the same applies when you're launching a business. Make sure that you put it on the map and just occasionally it will backfire. ask you, roughly 50 years after starting your first business, why write Finding My Virginity? What was the catalyst for that? Why do it?

Starting point is 00:49:30 I actually think everybody should write a book about their lives. I've persuaded a number of people to write books about their lives. Steve Prossett, for instance. Anyway, a number of people. But you don't have to have led a very public life. I think everyone's led interesting lives. Your children and your grandchildren will be fascinated by the lives, the lives you lead. And so I wrote a book, Losing My Virginity, when I was a young man about all the adventures. It became a bestseller and sold millions of copies. But I was quite a young man when I wrote it. And the last 20 years or so, I've been very full and very rich and extraordinary.

Starting point is 00:50:18 So I thought I would write, in a sense, a sequel to Losing My Virginity, which we call Finding My Virginity. And if I live another would write, in a sense, a sequel to Losing My Virginity, which we call Finding My Virginity. And if I live another 20 years, Virginity Found, I suspect, will be my last book. But we'll see how we go. But no, but I think, you know, I think it's important. I love reading, reading and learning. And I think others might enjoy, hopefully will enjoy it. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:50:45 when I write books, I try to, I try not to make them like a, you know, and then, and then we did this and then we did that. Just try to make it a really good gripping read and, and an enjoyable read and, and not try to sort of cram in everything one's done in 20 years. But, and hopefully people can get a few gems from it as well uh i'm looking forward to to reading it certainly i mean given how dog-eared and how worn my paperback copy of finding uh my virginity is uh i i'm losing my virginity uh yes i'm sorry that's uh i need more coffee i just had some puerity but it's a little light on the octane. But I know exactly where it is. It's actually kept on a bookshelf. This is just a slight

Starting point is 00:51:30 digression, but there are a handful of autobiographies and biographies that have had a large impact on my life and or that I find very beautiful in many ways. And they are lined up on one shelf in my house so that I can see the spines and yours is there, uh, open by Andre Agassi is there, and there are a handful of others. Uh, so it's very meaningful. So I'm looking forward to, to reading this. And as a meta question, what are the practices, if there are any practices or habits or, or anything for that matter that helps you to keep your energy level as high as it is over so many years? I've seen you, for instance, you seem to exercise a lot. I've seen you just go for hours and hours skiing, swimming around Necker, kiteboarding. but could you speak to what helps you to maintain such a high level of energy and

Starting point is 00:52:27 output over so long? It's really mind-boggling to me to even observe from afar. Well, looking after yourself is obviously absolutely key to everything else. And everything stems from how healthy and well you are, both physically, mentally, and so on. I generally do it through sport. I've been very lucky that for many years I've lived on an island. And so I can get up early in the morning. I'll play a very hard game of singles tennis against somebody who's better than me. I'll then go kite surfing, maybe go surfing and then have breakfast

Starting point is 00:53:07 and the day begins. And I'll repeat that most likely later on in the day and maybe swim around the island as well. So generally, I think I stay healthy and fit. As a family, my kids are now taking my adventure streak on board. So every year they set us a challenge, which we do together. So just to give you a taste of it, last year they set the challenge

Starting point is 00:53:38 that we would start at the Matterhorn in Switzerland. We'd do an eight-day hike across the mountains. We'd then get on a bicycle. We'd ride 100 miles a day on the bike through the mountains all the way from the north of Italy to the southernest tip of Italy. Then we'd swim to Sicily. Then we would do another bike ride, a marathon, and then we'd end up at the top of Mount Etna. It took us a month. You know, I was shattered about halfway through it. But by the end of it, I felt like a 25-year-old. And I just never felt so fit, you know, since I was in my 20s.

Starting point is 00:54:13 And obviously, you know, we'll try to raise money for good cause at the same time. But the very fact that, you know, we set ourselves these challenges, something like tomorrow, I'm now in Morocco today. And tomorrow, we're about to climb Mount Tukul, which is the highest mountain in North Africa together, and a few other little things like bike rides and hikes and things thrown in. Setting ourselves challenges, doing it together as a family, involving friends and trying to raise money for good causes. That keeps you fit and healthy and your mind good so that you can do a lot more as a result.

Starting point is 00:54:55 So speaking of doing good, which you can certainly do through non-profits and through for-profits and other vehicles, many of my listeners wanted me to ask you to expand on your reasons for investing in Memphis meats and clean meat. And so looking forward to your next 20 years of adventures, could you talk about that decision? I mean, if you take this beautiful world we live in, you know, one of the things that make it so beautiful is things like the rainforests. And the rainforests are rapidly disappearing because of our demand for beef, basically. You know, for every hamburger we eat, the amount of land that is needed to produce it is considerable. And as we're more and more successful at bringing more and more people out of poverty on a global basis, more and more people are starting to eat

Starting point is 00:55:50 meat. So the only way of addressing this problem is either to persuade people not to eat meat, which I don't think is going to be something that we can be successful at or coming up with alternative forms of meat. So, you know, there's a wonderful company, I think, called Beyond Meat, which produces hamburgers that taste absolutely like hamburgers, but are made of vegetables. You know, there's the other company you just mentioned that we've invested in that is literally you know growing uh you're taking a little tiny little bit of a live animal without killing it and then growing it in laboratories so um you know so you can have uh you know you you can have beef or you can uh you know have chicken or pig or even even um even fish they believe they'll be able to do and And you can make it even healthier than the beef or the meat that you get from live animals. So the challenge, obviously, is producing it in quantity.

Starting point is 00:56:52 They believe they will be able to do that. And if they can do it, hopefully one day we won't have to cut down the rainforests and therefore kill animals in order to get our meat consumption. And I suspect when that happens, we'll actually look back at the wholesale slaughter of animals and the way that we did it and be slightly embarrassed about it. My main reason for this is more to do with trying to protect what's left of our beautiful earth. And if you're looking at other areas of interest, I mean, living as I did for a long time, 17 years in Silicon Valley, the question of this protein paradox or protein challenge is a very big one. So some people are looking at insect protein, like you mentioned, some people are growing meat in laboratories, others are looking at vegetable options. Another really active area of discussion

Starting point is 00:57:46 is cryptocurrency or blockchain and or blockchain. How do you think about if you do cryptocurrency? I mean, when you're hearing all of the news and so on, are you engaging with that at all? Are you choosing to step back? How are you thinking about cryptocurrency? I mean, I don't spend a lot of time on this. I find blockchain very exciting. I think the fact that, you know, Hernando de Soto has written some wonderful books about how do you pull people out of poverty. And, you know, he's taken Egypt as an example.

Starting point is 00:58:24 90% of people who live in Egypt live in houses, but they built those houses just on public land. And they have no piece of paper showing that they own that land. So if they want to start a business, they can't mortgage their home you know you know to start a business they can't use their asset to borrow money to send their children to school and so blockchain for instance would be the perfect place you could go and register you know the millions or billions of homes around the world that have no ownership on blockchain and you know it can all be in one place. And I think it could start a revolution of, you know, wealth for very poor people. You know, cryptocurrency, it's not something that I've spent a lot of time on, but I think I marvel at Bitcoin and the genius of the man who invented it

Starting point is 00:59:21 and, you know, what it's achieved so far and, you far and what it could possibly achieve in the years to come. And Ethereum and some of these other cryptocurrencies that are coming up. Again, hats off to these geniuses who are producing them. But more of my energy, to be honest, is now spent on different kinds of issues. But I mean, I'm fascinated by everything in life. And this is one of those fascinating areas. I want to be respectful of your time. I know we don't have a whole lot left. So I'd love to just ask a few of the audience favorite rapid fire questions. And then I know you're bouncing from point to point right now around the world. So I'll let you

Starting point is 01:00:00 get going. But the first question is, what is the book or books you've given most as a gift and why? Outside of your own books, are there any particular books that you've given or recommended to others the most? something which I've spent a lot of time on. I would highly recommend a book by Tim Flannery called The Weathermakers, which was one of the books that opened my eyes to the problems that we have in the world. I'm just reading Homo Deus, which I find is, and I will carry on to read Sapiens, his first book, one of his first books. And I just love the style of his writing. And I love books where you're learning something from them. And rather than, if I want fiction, I'll get a good film out. So if I'm reading books, I like to read books which have got some substance. I love autobiographies or biographies as well. Do you read most of your books as text or do you listen to audiobooks?

Starting point is 01:01:12 I'm just thinking back to the challenges you had with dyslexia as a younger person. Have you learned to cope with those and now read mostly text or is audio something that you use much? I have largely coped with these things now and enjoy a good solid book with a hardback book. I'm just waiting. I'm just doing my own audio book for finding my virginity. It takes a long time, doesn't it? It takes a long time, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, I know that more and more people do enjoy audiobooks. I'm sure it's worthwhile.

Starting point is 01:01:49 In the last, let's just call it five years or so, what new belief, behavior or habit has most improved your life? Or what habit has improved your life? Could be any new belief, behavior or habit that has markedly improved your life? If we could go back a bit further than the last five years, I think... Oh, yeah. No, we can go back. We can go back as far as you like. Absolutely. One of the best things my parents taught me, and I'm going back a long way, if I ever said anything about anybody, they would sit me in front of the mirror for 10 minutes in order

Starting point is 01:02:24 to sort of let me know how badly it reflected on me so you know i like to think i've never generally i've generally never spoken ill about other people and i think that's been one of the one of the you know best bits of advice that i've ever given i'm sorry i've ever received or and obviously then given archbishop tutu who who chaired the Elders, which is an organization that we've run for 10 years now, he was the epitome of forgiveness with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa

Starting point is 01:02:58 when Nelson Mandela took over power. And I think just people, nations, we should all try to run based on that philosophy. And I think the world would be a happier place if that happened. You mentioned Nelson Mandela. This is clearly not one of my stock rapid fire questions, but I've heard you refer to Nelson as a mentor. Are there any key lessons or takeaways or memorable sentences or anything that come to mind when you think of your interactions with Nelson Mandela? Well, you know, I was lucky enough to get to know him very well

Starting point is 01:03:41 over the years, even to the extent that on July the 18th, we shared a birthday and he would ring me every single birthday to wish me a happy birthday. And, you know, I remember the sadness when I didn't get that call not so many years ago. You know, he had an absolute joy for life and, you know, he would dance, he would smile, he would embrace everybody. But he had a tough side to him as well. And I remember one lunch I had with him early on in our relationship where, you know, I'd been warned that he was always trying to extract money for good causes. So, you know, we had the first course, then we had the second course, then we had the pudding and we were on to the coffee. And I thought, my God, I've got away with it. And then he turns to me and says, Richard, last week I had lunch with Bill Gates and he gave me $50 million for such and such a course.

Starting point is 01:04:38 And anyway, so he did not miss an opportunity. Yeah. I mean, I have not, apart from maybe Archbishop Tutu, I've really never met and haven't met anybody as extraordinary in my lifetime as him. When you yourself feel, and maybe you don't feel this, but I'll assume for the moment that you do, when you felt overwhelmed or unfocused, or if you feel like you've temporarily lost your focus, what do you do? Or what have you found to help? You know, what questions do you ask yourself? Is there in those cases, what have you done historically that is that has been helpful? You know, I personally believe that the majority of people who have down moments in their lives, they can actually trace it back quite often to alcohol.

Starting point is 01:05:31 So perhaps the only days of my life that I feel lethargic is if instead of having two glasses at nighttime, I had five or six. And if I find that's happened on more than one or two occasions, I had five or six. And if I find that's happened, you know, on more than one or two occasions, I then give up completely for, you know, a month or two and, and feel absolutely fantastic, of course, and realize that I'm never going to drink another touch of alcohol again until actually you do. And, and, you know, fortunately, I you know you know i'm so busy that i that i just can't afford to let myself down um too often but my guess is that um for the vast majority of people you know if you can if you can be high on life and fit and healthy and uh and you know if you

Starting point is 01:06:21 if you do find that um that something like alcohol is just beginning to go a bit too far, you know, being high on life is just so wonderful. A friend of mine, an entrepreneur named Matt Mullenweg, he's been on this podcast as well. He's the CEO of a company called Automatic, which is behind WordPress, which powers around 37% of the internet right now. And he told me at one point that he had learned something long ago, which was alcohol is borrowing happiness from tomorrow. And certainly seems to be the case. I think that those are beautiful words. And they're very, very, very true words. You know, I mean, my son's just had a year off alcohol. And, you know, look, you can tell he's just so high on life. He's just enjoying it like he's never enjoyed it before.

Starting point is 01:07:19 And, you know, so like if you could do it in moderation, that's great. You know, I tell the story in the book. There was one one night in when we when we won the Grand Prix in Melbourne. And anyway, I let my hair down to such an extent that it would have made the film Hangover look like a children's children's film. And and the next day I woke up and anyway i gave i gave up for six months and and so it you know it doesn't happen to me too often um but um but i think you know generally it's yeah generally when that's the one area that uh i think a lot of a lot of people who do you know run into problems in lives lives. It's just slightly too much.

Starting point is 01:08:07 During those periods when you go off of alcohol, do you avoid circumstances where other people are drinking? Or is there something that you say to people if you are in those circumstances? How do you ensure that you don't have just that one drink that then triggers more drinks if you're trying to take time away from alcohol my trick is simply to have uh cranberry and soda in a champagne glass people don't know you know i don't you know i just take cranberry and soda in a champagne glass and but i think look i think for a lot of people especially when people first give up anything like that drugs alcohol they need to walk away completely for a while.

Starting point is 01:08:47 Fortunately, you know, I haven't got it. I've never let myself get to that stage. But I think that the best advice is to, you know, just say, I need to go to bed early tonight and walk away. Otherwise, it's very difficult for people to stick with it. Are you somebody who drinks or not? I don't drink a whole lot. I do enjoy wine. Fortunately, I don't feel like I've had any issues with alcohol, although genetically, my family seems to have that predisposition.

Starting point is 01:09:21 I certainly have a fair amount of alcoholism in my extended family. So I think about it quite a bit. I can tell that I think I have the potential to abuse it, but I haven't up to this point. I think that you and I have such fascinating lives that that is the best way of keeping these sorts know, keeping these sorts of things in check. You know, we just, we want it every day. So interesting that you're just not going to want to waste, waste a day by letting something like that take over your life. Right. No, definitely. And just, just two more questions for me. This is one really intended just to give people a window into how you cope with some of the harder times. Do you have a favorite failure of yours? And what I mean by that is,

Starting point is 01:10:12 how has a failure or an apparent failure set you up for later success? Are there any particular examples that come to mind? Yeah, I mean, I think on the adventure side, you know, the first time we crossed the Atlantic in a boat, we were trying to break the record for the fastest crossing of the Atlantic and getting the blue ribbon back. And, you know, and we sank. And then the next day we built another boat and we were successful. And the British people love people who are underdogs. And it taught me that actually failing and then being successful most likely was better than just going out there and being successful the first time around. I mean, overcoming difficulties, the public almost preferred than someone who's just successful the first time around. Maybe not so much in America, but in Britain anyway. I suppose the most notable business failure that we've ever had was taking on Coca-Cola with Virgin Cola. And for a while, it really looked like we were going to topple Coke and Pepsi.

Starting point is 01:11:16 I mean, we were outselling them in the UK. The Virgin brand resonated. People loved the drink. I mean, and then, you know, we landed in Times Square with the Sherman tank and we took on Coke in their homeland in America. And Coke decided to fire back and they filled up DC-10s full of money and hit men and hit women. And they landed in the territories that we'd launched. And they suddenly, Virgin Cola started disappearing from all these shelves. And I think the lesson I learned from that was, you know, if I'm going to take on a Goliath,

Starting point is 01:11:53 I've got to be, we've got to be different. We've got to be much better than they are. And, you know, with a cola, you're just another cola. You're not, you can't be fundamentally different. You can be cheaper, but you can't be fundamentally different. So anything we've launched since then, we've only launched new businesses if we can make a fundamental difference. I love it. Yeah, that's so important to underscore, I think.

Starting point is 01:12:19 This is the last rapid fire question. If you could have a giant billboard anywhere with anything on it, and this is metaphorically speaking, so getting a message out to millions or billions of people, what would it say and why? It could be a few words, could be a paragraph, could be a quote you live your life by yours or someone else's. Does anything come to mind if you could get a message out to billions of people? What might you put on that billboard? Trouble is I think I'm going to sound like a, a, um, a model, um, on stage, um, about,

Starting point is 01:12:54 about the need to bring peace to peace to the world. Uh, and, and, and therefore I will instead go back to be a businessman, which is, you know, I think just something like nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think that in life, if people, you know, if people try things and stick their neck out, they're going to have a lot more fun than if they sit at home watching other people do it. And so, yeah, so I think that old quote, nothing mentioned, nothing gained is important. Having said that, you know, I've been involved for 10 years now in this wonderful group called The Elders. And Nelson Mandela set it up and it's now run by Kofi Annan. And I really do believe that in our lifetime, I've seen so many unnecessary wars. I've seen the Vietnamese War. I've seen the Iraq war, the Libyan war.

Starting point is 01:13:46 And these were all incredibly unjust wars which have gone on to spawn awful things like ISIS and so on, which would not have happened if it wasn't for actually the West taking it upon themselves to interfere in other countries' business and killing and maiming thousands of people. And, you know, we must make sure that we don't have any wars in the future. And I think it takes business people, it takes society, it takes all of us to really make sure that our politicians never take us down that path again. I mean, one of the saddest things, I think, about the invasion of Iraq was, you know, yes, there were thousands of people on the streets. There should have been hundreds and hundreds of thousands, just like the Vietnamese war, to stop such a foolish excursion. You know, all conflict should be able to be resolved by negotiation. And even if you don't get exactly what you want to leave your mark on the world as a business person, as a philanthropist, there's actually a very common skill set when you look at the highest levels. You need to be able to negotiate. You need to know how to deal make. And you're

Starting point is 01:15:19 talking about, say, ventures, nothing ventured, nothing gained, which also ties nicely into adventure. If people look at the etymology, I mean, these are very closely related concepts. Uh, and I'm just so thrilled that, uh, we were able to find the time to jump on the phone, Richard, and have this conversation and, uh, certainly recommend, uh, because I will be reading it along with everyone else, that people take a look at Finding My Virginity. I can't wait to pick up where I left off in the previous installment. Is there anything else you would like to recommend to everyone listening, to the millions of people hearing this, that they do or try, ask themselves,

Starting point is 01:16:04 anything at all, any next action or anything else that you'd like to leave with as parting words? Well, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you and would obviously look forward to seeing you again soon. I was just thinking on, we were talking about alcohol. I mean, no, I think the converse is true. I mean, and to what we were talking about on alcohol, and that is that, I mean, if you say take the war on drugs, that's been going on now for 50 years. As a businessman, I would have closed down the war on drugs 49 years ago. I mean, it's been an abject failure. And yet governments have continued to perpetuate

Starting point is 01:16:46 this war on drugs, which has resulted in hundreds of thousands of people being put in prison, hundreds of thousands of casualties. It's resulted in 390 billion a year going into the underworld. And yet there is a simple answer. And that is if you treat drugs as a health problem, not a criminal problem, and you help people with drug problems, countries that do that are getting on top of it. So, you know, and we as business leaders are trying to educate governments into seeing, you know, opening their eyes and saying, look, you know, if Portugal can do this, say for heroin takers, you, America, should do the same thing. They had a massive heroin epidemic in the year 2000. And by embracing those heroin addicts and helping them become normal members of society again, they managed to solve the problem. America now has the biggest heroin epidemic in history.

Starting point is 01:17:42 And yet the way they're dealing with it is the same old war on drugs. And the way to deal with it is, you know, you ask these people to come forward, you help them with their fixes initially, you supply them with the products, you stop them having to break and enter into people's homes. And you make sure that when they're ready to wean themselves off, that you help them wean themselves off and you make them useful members of society again. You know, I'm part of something called the Global Drug Commission and we've got 15 people who used to be presidents of their country,

Starting point is 01:18:17 Copian Anz on it, and we've done a lot of studies on this subject. And, you know, we believe that every single drug should be regulated and taxed and warnings should be very firmly put on these drugs in the same way you have warnings on cigarettes or warnings on alcohol. But that is the way to overcome this problem, not to carry on having a war on drugs.

Starting point is 01:18:41 I think this is tremendously important and I'm really glad that you brought it up. Just having seen my best friend growing up, I grew up in rural Long Island. My best friend a few years ago died of an opiate overdose. And it's a hugely important problem that is not being, it's being addressed in the most counterproductive of ways,

Starting point is 01:19:03 as you noted. And I'm actually, this is probably something we could we could talk for a long time about but i'm involved with supporting research at places like johns hopkins looking at even using certain things like say psilocybin for the treatment of certain forms of addiction and end of life anxiety and so on. But the important component of that, or one of the components of that being looking at how to reschedule and properly supervise and regulate these compounds as opposed to immediately criminalizing them and just compounding the problem with another hundred problems uh that that end up fixing nothing so i i very much appreciate you bringing that up yeah well thank you i think um yeah i mean

Starting point is 01:19:52 it is it's it's sad and strange that um yeah that year after year goes by and um it's it's you just if you talk to government to people who are you know in in positions of power they actually individually they know what the right thing is to do. They just don't have the courage to do it. And we just need a little bit more courage, I think, with some of our politicians. Well, Richard, thank you so much for being an agent of change and also sharing your stories in such a way that you inspire other people to do the same. And I'm really excited to see what other dents you put in the world.

Starting point is 01:20:31 And for people listening, they can find you on social media, Richard Branson everywhere. Certainly, they should check out Finding My Virginity. And to people listening, I will link to everything, including the new book and the show notes at tim.blog forward slash podcast. And Richard, you have so many projects and so many things to keep you high on life. So I will let you get back to it. But thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. Thanks so much, Tim. Once again, congratulations.

Starting point is 01:21:00 Talk to you soon. All right. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is five bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a

Starting point is 01:21:19 little morsel of fun before the weekend and five bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one.

Starting point is 01:22:03 And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #272: Sir Richard Branson — The Billionaire Maverick of the Virgin Empire

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Pet Camera - EBO Air 2

The Tim Ferriss Show - #272: Sir Richard Branson — The Billionaire Maverick of the Virgin Empire

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.