The Tim Ferriss Show - #302: Own the Day, Own Your Life - Aubrey Marcus

Starting point is 00:00:00 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question? Now would have seen an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. And I'd heard about Peloton over and over again,

Starting point is 00:00:29 but I ended up getting a Peloton bike in the whole system after I saw my buddy Kevin Rose. I've known him forever, some of you know. And he showed up at my gate at my house a while back, and he looked fantastic. And I asked him, I said, dude, you look great. What the hell have you been up to? Because he's always doing a weird diet or another, but it only lasts like a week or two. So he always regresses to the mean after like 75 beers.

Starting point is 00:00:54 And he said, I've been doing Peloton five days a week. Now that caught my attention because Kevin does nothing five days a week. And you know, I love you, Kevin. But it really piqued my curiosity, ended up getting a system, and it's become an integral part of my week. I love it, and I really didn't expect to love it at all because I find cycling really boring usually. But Peloton is an indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right into your home. You don't have to worry about fitting classes into your schedule or making it to a studio with some type of commute, etc. New classes are added every day,

Starting point is 00:01:30 and this includes options led by elite New York City instructors in your own living room. You can even live stream studio classes taught by the world's best instructors or find your own favorite class on demand. And in fact, Kevin and I rarely do live classes, and you can compete with your friends, which is also fun. Kevin, I'm coming after you. But we usually just use classes on demand. I really like Matt Wilpers and his, or you can select by music, duration, and so on. Each Peloton bike includes a 22-inch HD touchscreen, performance tracking metrics. I think that, along with the real-time leaderboard, are the main reasons that this caught my attention when cycling never had caught my attention before. It's really pretty stunning what they've done with the user interface to keep your attention. The belt drive is quiet and it's smaller than you would expect. So it can

Starting point is 00:02:29 fit in a living room or an office. I actually have it in a large closet, believe it or not, and it fits with no problem. So Peloton is offering all of you guys, listeners of the Tim Ferriss Show, a special offer, and it is actually special. Visit OnePeloton, that's O-N-E-P-E-L-O-T-O-N, OnePeloton.com, and enter the code TIM, all caps, T-I-M, at checkout to receive $100 off accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. Now, you might say, meh, accessories? Wait, I don't need fancy towels or whatever other supplemental bits and pieces. No, the shoes you need. You need the clip-in shoes and those are in the accessory category. So this $100 off is a very legit $100 off. So if you want to get in your workouts, if you want a convenient

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Starting point is 00:05:33 where it is my job to interview incredible people who have done incredible things and to tease out the habits, routines, life lessons, and so on that you can apply to your own life. My guest this episode is Aubrey Marcus. You can find him on Instagram, on Twitter, et cetera, at Aubrey Marcus. He is the founder and CEO of Onnit, O-N-N-I-T, a lifestyle brand based on a holistic health philosophy that Aubrey calls total human optimization. I've spent a good amount of time with Aubrey, and he walks the talk in every way that I have possibly observed over the last few years. Onnit is now an Inc. 500 company. It's one of the fastest-growing private companies in the country and an industry leader with products touching millions of lives, including many top professional athletes around the world. Aubrey currently hosts the Aubrey Marcus Podcast, a motivational destination for conversations with the brightest minds in athletics, business, science, relationships, and more.

Starting point is 00:06:29 With over 10 million downloads on iTunes, Aubrey regularly provides commentary to outlets like Entrepreneur, Forbes, The Doctors, and the Joe Rogan Experience, on which he's appeared several times. He's been featured on the cover of Men's Health, and his newest and first book, which is on my coffee table right now, is Own the Day, Own Your Life from HarperCollins. Without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Aubrey Marcus. Aubrey Marcus, welcome to the show. What's up, Tim? Hey, man, I'm going to shake your hand because I don't usually do video. And here we are in the Shanghai of Texas, otherwise known as Austin. I've never seen so many cranes in one place in the United States. Yeah, it's thriving. It is really

Starting point is 00:07:15 thriving. And I think we're on the cusp of all sorts of fun in the next couple of years. I like it. People whine about it. Like, oh, you know, Austin used to be this kind of reminiscing fantasy thing. I think it's just getting better. Well, I think it's like talking to someone who went to a concert in the early days with any band. Or Burning Man. They're like, Burning Man used to be so cool, man, in 2007 before you got here in 2008. Grateful Dead, I was at their first show. Now it's so uncool. So there's a lot of discussion along those lines about Austin.

Starting point is 00:07:44 But you are one of the people I know best here in Austin. Yep. And I'm thrilled to have you in front of the mic. Yeah, man. I'm glad you came out. It's been dope. Got to hang out, have some wine, have some dinner. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:55 And I know I'm not impressing anyone with my 45-pound deadlifts in the honor gym. You have a lot. No, but it's your persistence, though, Tim. It's the fact that you do it so many times and only do that. That's true. Oh, wow. That's true. Well, the last time you saw me in that gym, I was working on a program from Jersey Gregorick, the 63 year old former world record holder in Olympic weightlifting doing only overhead squats, if I remember correctly, for like an hour and a half. All day all day. Let's do it now. I'm more overhead squats. So part of the reason I wanted to have you here to have this conversation is that I feel

Starting point is 00:08:31 like you are one of the people who really walks the walk in checking the boxes of these overlapping spheres of life, whether that is body, business, let's just call it balance. I'm actually borrowing this bit from a weekend event one of my friends went to not too long ago. But you've done a really good job of integrating those various pieces. And so this format of this particular podcast is going to be a bit experimental and jarring maybe in its lack of transitions. But I want to start with a question I was recently asked at a small dinner. And the question was posed by a guy named Michael Hebs, who's a fascinating guy, very good chef, organizes dinners around specific topics very often. So he did one, I think it was called

Starting point is 00:09:17 Dinner or Dining with Death. And it was in cooperation with NPR and it was a facilitated conversation around mortality. And he's done many of these and had a small dinner with him in LA with about six to eight people, and no one really knew any other attendee. And to break the ice, he started with this question, which just opened up the floodgates so that everyone got very vulnerable and very open, very quickly. And this is it. So thank you, Michael. When is the last time that you cried tears of joy that you remember? Oh man, that wasn't too long ago. That's, that's a more frequent occurrence for me actually. And as I've done, you know, a lot of work on my life and it hasn't been the external stuff that ever

Starting point is 00:10:03 makes me cry tears of joy. It's not a big on it success. It's not something external that happens. It's really just sitting in a moment. It can be with a lover that I'm sharing a night with and I'll just start crying and just the experience of enjoying that simple moment or laughing with friends or, I mean, it's actually a rather frequent occurrence. And that's one of the best indicators for me that the path that I'm on is yielding the kind of fruit that I'm really looking for and looking to forage because I catch myself doing that all the time. I actually, today I had a little informal mentorship with one of my employees. And just as I saw that breakthrough moment, I saw that moment where, you know, I was talking about her working,

Starting point is 00:10:48 not on her business and not on her career and on it, but on her heart and how that, and she was like, yeah, it's a big project. And I go, yeah, it is a big project. And I saw that light come up and just the tears will come in that moment for me too. It's just like, fuck yeah. You know, like I'm, I'm, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And then just the gratitude for being able to do what I'm supposed to be doing. It'll just, it'll come. Is that something that has always been the case or is that something that has become more frequent with any kind of trigger or catalyst? It's, uh, it's, it was very rare. You know, I think it was very rare because I think most of my life I was trying to achieve something. I was trying to validate myself externally, trying to say, if I get to this point, then I'll be successful. Then I'll be, you know, living up to my potential. Then I'll be that. And whether it was in high school for

Starting point is 00:11:33 basketball, like, oh, if I make all state honors, then I'll be there. If we make it far in the playoffs, then I'll be there. And it was always this next thing, but it's never the next thing. You can keep searching for that next thing. You're not going to find it until you turn that gaze truly inward. And as that process is gone, and I've almost kind of exhausted the external thing. So it's kind of forced me to go internal because when on it was successful and the external was great then, and I still wasn't that happy deeply. Then I was like, all right, it's definitely not external. Like this is internal. And that's driven me deeper and deeper inside my heart. So if I look back at my own experience with relationships with people who've unfortunately taken their lives, it's not the depressing, outwardly depressing cases that you would

Starting point is 00:12:21 expect. It's actually very often the people who have a lot of money. Not always, certainly, but it strikes me that, for instance, one of my best friends, Andrea, in high school, then two friends later in college, seemed to have everything going for them. And I shouldn't say of course, but nobody saw these coming and they all had a good amount of money. is that for a long time, for most of life, if you're fighting for every scrap to get this external validation, you can envision a day when I have X, it'll all be great. And this anxiety, I feel this fill in the blank that I feel will go away and then it doesn't go away. And so then at that point, if you've checked the boxes, it seems like you can lose hope. Or if you grow up rich and you realize it does not, in fact, as a panacea solve your problem. So my question then walk us through how you shifted your gaze to be more internal because I've, I've seen that in you.

Starting point is 00:13:35 We haven't known each other that long. We've known each other a while. Yeah. And I'd love to just hear how you made the decision or how you were forced to look inward. Because a lot of people get to a point where the outside world, third parties would think of them as successful, but they never shift the gaze. Yeah. So, so how did it happen? It's in combination from like external pressure, you know, external pain, internal pain, like pain as a motivator to let you know that something is wrong. And then, so that's kind of like your engine light blinking. And then it's the practices that I've employed that helped me have that introspection to actually go searching and figure out what it

Starting point is 00:14:15 is. So it's always been a combination of that pain plus the tools to go seek out where that pain is coming from. And I was fortunate, you fortunate. I was given an opportunity to do a vision quest when I was just out of high school. And I was staunch atheist, zero spirituality. How did that come to be? That was through my father. And I had had a lot of issues with my dad, but he was in a lot of pain himself.

Starting point is 00:14:38 And that had taken him down to try everything, from primal therapy to all kinds of different conventional methods eventually into psychedelics working with actually with stan groff doing holotropic breathing doing lsd psychotherapy doing and he found a shaman who worked with psilocybin in the mountains and where was this this was in the mountains of new mexico and he after high school and that traditional kind of vision quest kind of idea said you know you should go experience this because at that point you know he would talk about anything on the fringe of spirituality and i'd grown up here in texas and getting washed with religion capital

Starting point is 00:15:17 r religion i was like fuck that you know dad like i'm not interested in that like i saw the dungeons of the inquisition this is bullshit you know this is, this is bad. And he's like, no, no, just check it out, you know, and see what happens. It's a vision quest. And I respected like, you know, native American culture enough and traditional culture enough that I was like, all right, I'll give it a go. And I was fucking terrified. Like, can you, can you explain to people or describe what that vision quest entails? Yeah. It's kind of, it's a traditional rite of passage where typically a young man, but it can be any man goes to find an aspect of themselves that has been hidden some calling some piece of them that they don't know about that they aren't

Starting point is 00:15:56 aware of. And that's certainly what happened. You know, I was given a tea in the mountains in a very isolated place with a very loving and warm, um, you know, mushroom shaman. And she gave me a tea in the mountains in a very isolated place with a very loving and warm um you know mushroom shaman and she gave me a tea and then after a little while i felt my entire body evaporate into geometry and i was like oh shit like i got a lot of things wrong you know like there is something else to this experience and that was just this i stayed up all night riding and there was thunderstorms and the coyotes howling i don't know they sounded like wolves but i'm probably coyotes being in new mexico yeah and and it was this crazy night of just realizing that my whole paradigm at that point had shifted i'd realized

Starting point is 00:16:40 that i'm not just body and mind there There's something else that I access, something that could observe both of those things. And that's been kind of like the fallback, you know, teacher for me and finding the ways then to not just use the medicines, but find ways to get there in other means, because that's kind of like a feast. You can't feast every night, finding the other ways to access that identification point. So you do not have kids as far as I know at this point that you're aware of, but if I do have any kids out there and you want to claim it, like we'll talk about it. I'm in a pretty good spot now. On it.com. Uh, when you have, if, and when you have kids, not sure if that's in the cards, but if you do, would you walk them through, let's just say you have a son. It doesn't necessarily matter, son or daughter. Would you walk them through or introduce them to a rite of passage like that? Fuck yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:37 Like they're undoubtedly. How would you structure it? What do you think it would look like? Well, I think as a parent, as a dad, you have to kind of get out of the way because part of the vision quest is getting your kid out of your purview, you know, like allowing them to become their own man. So I would find someone who is, you know, separate enough for me that I wasn't influencing the experience and someone I trusted. And, you know, I know a lot of people right now, and I'm sure I'll know a lot of people even, even then and talking to, you know, maps and talking to Hefter

Starting point is 00:18:05 and talking to those organizations that are working on the legalization of these as medicines. I think there's going to be a lot of cool options, um, for people to do that completely above board and legally by the time I have a kid, I mean, they're targeting 2021 for MDMA therapy and psilocybin sometime after that. So I think there's going to be a lot of options and it's going to become more common. And, um, you know, I just send them with someone I really trusted and, uh, allow the process to unfold. And that's the thing you, you really don't want to guide it too much. You want to have the guide and allow the medicine and the, and nature and everything around them to, to be the teacher. I'm sure there are people watching or listening who have had early, say adolescent or high school or college experiences with psychedelics, but

Starting point is 00:18:51 viewed them in retrospect as uncontrolled recreational. So do you think the reason that vision quest stuck with you, how much of it was the psychedelics versus the ceremony versus the guidance? I mean, if you had to try to weight those factors, how would you? How much of it was the psychedelics versus the ceremony versus the guidance? I mean, if you had to try to weight those factors, how would you? They're inextricable. Yeah, they're inextricable. You know, like the experience itself blends together and becomes inseparable. Like you couldn't take one part and have it all be there. You know, it was the trust that I had in the guide. Cause I think one of the big problems with taking psychedelics half has is like, am I going to die? You know, is this going to, am I going to, am I going to get busted by

Starting point is 00:19:27 the cops? Is this, is this his right environment? What is that? Is that person looking at me funny? You know, like all of these crazy things come in and can steer it into really squirrely pathways, but having that steady, loving presence available and just being out in the land and having it and knowing that I was part of a lineage that had done this thousands of times for many, many generations, that what gave me the support system to be able to really let go. Cause I think you can really stay tense and fight, you know, fight these experiences and you get stories and reports of people taking incredibly high doses and they're like still so bound up, they can't even release into it. But having a guide that really you trust is absolutely essential because they're like still so bound up they can't even release into it but having a guide that really you

Starting point is 00:20:05 trust is absolutely essential because they're really guiding you through this massive bursting of a cocoon you know and it's it's pretty terrifying on its own and having somebody there to help is absolutely essential and i only i only recommend doing it in that context until you're somewhat of a master yourself. Yeah, agreed. And definitely get external verification that you're a master. I've been on YouTube and I think I understand this well enough. I'm a black belt now.

Starting point is 00:20:34 I watched Triple Rainbow three times. I know what bliss is. Exactly. What did you think you wanted to be when you grew up when you were 16 17 18 you know i think i really i was always into history and i was i would look at all the great conquering heroes and the great kings and the great the people who had led these big movements and i looked around and obviously you know genghis khan was kind of an asshole you know i didn't really want to kill people and that's not the way it happens anymore so really the people leading the movements, you had politicians, but they didn't

Starting point is 00:21:08 seem like they were quite doing anything that I was interested in. And then, so you had, you know, business leaders and thought leaders and authors. And so I think I always knew I was going to end up in one of those categories, either leading an organization or writing books or speaking or something. And interestingly, I doubted myself the whole way because I failed at absolutely everything I tried. Like what? What did you try that didn't work out? Literally everything. I mean, I tried gold mining. I tried some variety of different online retail from sex toys to skincare to, I tried oil and gas. I tried like-

Starting point is 00:21:44 Oil and gas, like like oil and gas like trading side investing it's like invest like um investor relations you know like trying to convince people to go bet on some wild cat fucking oil well in the middle of nowhere that never works you know and i'd get some stock options like this one's gonna hit never hit nothing but now looking back i'm grateful because i literally failed at everything that wasn't directly going to serve my purpose. And all of those failures, all the lessons gave me the strength to be able to hold an organization of this magnitude that I'm holding now. Like the person that I was then couldn't run on it. Like I couldn't write the book that I wrote.

Starting point is 00:22:20 I couldn't do the things that I'm doing. I couldn't have this conversation now because my ego would get in the way and all kinds of things. I wasn't ready yet. And so the universe was like, no, not ready. Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail. And, but I was like, man, I'm just, I'm 30 and I've failed at everything. You know, I've scratched out a little money here and there, you know, I was doing all right, doing better than some of my peers. When I would go buy bottles at the club and party like I could buy a more expensive bottle than they could and so everybody's like yeah Aubrey you're killing I'm like I'm not fucking killing it I'm like blowing it yeah and that was that was tough and then finally it just kind of lined up with the the right timing and the right idea and the right

Starting point is 00:22:58 person leading it meaning me and uh it was able to come to fruition so let's let's start with a snapshot of where we are now and then i'm going to go back to you and your dad and 16 for a second yeah so on it what is on it how many employees do you have what are you proudest of yeah that on it has done or is doing we have on it's we call it total human optimization. So what I realized early on is that you couldn't, and you mentioned this in the intro, like balance, you really can't specialize in only one thing and really reach the potential of that thing. You have to support everything else. Like you can go super hard in one direction, but your health is going to fall apart. Your relationship's going to fall apart. And ultimately that's going to start being weight. It's going to be anchors. It's going to drag against your progress and it's going to be a headwind for you in anything that you're doing. And it's the same with the body. Like you can take great supplements, but if your nutrition is shitty and your workouts are shitty and your sleep is shitty and your mentality is shitty, so what? It's not going to matter. So total human optimization is the idea to raise everything at the same time and really try to incrementally improve.

Starting point is 00:24:06 And it's not as flashy and sexy as this 30-day transformation expert in this one area, but it really works and it's through to the bone. And I think that's what I'm probably most proud of is that on it is what it appears to be. Like you go there, the people who are there from me to Kyle, to everybody who's in the organization, they feel that movement. The people who follow on it, they feel that movement. I think it's just the vibe and the authenticity of what we stand for. The ability to be a little bit better tomorrow than you are today. And I think that's probably what I'm most proud of.

Starting point is 00:24:39 How many employees do you, do you have? 180 employees. If you count our yoga studios and count the gym and count the other entities that we own, how many employees did you have 10 years ago? When did on it? When did, when was it started in 2011? Well, originally 2010, zero employees, 2010, I was making like hangover supplements, uh, mostly cause I was partying too much. And I was, you know, really a lot of this was, well, where's, where's the need for me? Well, at that point I was just drinking my head off cause I was unhappy. So I first started making hangover supplements and then realized like, ah, that's not where I'm going. Where I'm going is to

Starting point is 00:25:15 really improve my life in all areas. And that's when we pivoted to alpha brain and different things. And yeah, we started, we started and there was one employee who was like, kind of like my right hand guy, part assistant, part, you know, whatever, everything, the everything, the odd job, a hundred percent. And then, uh, yeah, we started getting geared up with alpha brain. And then when it hit and we actually started having sales, then it was just like grabbing every friend that had something of a shaky job that I could trust and say, quit, quit, quit, come, you know, and let's fucking figure it out. And I was in the attic of a little boutique that my fiance at the time, Caitlin was running. And we were in the attic of this boutique and we were just bringing out literal trash bags of orders that we were hand labeling, you know, from the top of it. And that's, that's how it started. I mean, we didn't have a lot of fun. I'd blown through the only funding I got. I got a hundred thousand from my friend, Bodie Miller, who's the Olympic skier at the time, who's a really significant friendship for me. And then an old investment banking contact that somehow didn't go broke when all the wildcat wells, you know, dried up. And, you know, I don't know how he ever made money because everything I ever saw him do didn't work, but he gave me 50 grand. So I had so i had 110 000 i blew through a lot of that trying to market these hangover supplements and it was like literally like the last 20 000 invested in an order of alpha brain on net 30 and then it hit we sold out in 24 hours so net 30 meaning you had

Starting point is 00:26:37 30 days to pay for your manufacturing yeah and cover the cost exactly it was all in man it was just like here we go. Let's see. So I promised I'd get back to this. So I want to not leave people hanging. And then we're going to come back to the attic. 16. You, you mentioned you had a lot of maybe a complicated relationship with your dad, conflicted relationship, vision quest. Was that an overnight experience or was it multiple days? Overnight. Overnight. All right.

Starting point is 00:27:05 So you have this vision quest, uh, two things. If you're comfortable talking about it, how was your relationship with your dad complicated? I think that's true for a lot of people. Yeah. That is,

Starting point is 00:27:16 um, for those people who want a good quote, I think it was Ram Dass, formerly Richard Alpert. You can look up his history, but he said, if you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family.

Starting point is 00:27:27 So we all have our stuff. We all have our stuff. How was the relationship complicated? How would you describe it? And then did the vision quest affect it in any way? It did, but that took a long time to unpack. In fact, that's still unpacking, honestly. Like there's actually been an understanding, a realization that's actually led to a lot greater happiness for me. And, and I'll talk about that, you know, when I get to it, but if I go from the start, you know, my dad was a tortured soul and from his father who I never met, you know, his father used to hold trials for him and his brother, he was a lawyer and he would hold trials like Franz Kafka, Skyle, they're like six and eight years old and put them on trial and they'd have to petition their defense. And he would hold trials like friends kafka skyle they're like six and eight years old and put them on trial and they'd have to petition their defense and he would hammer them and cross

Starting point is 00:28:08 examine them and then then read out their sentence you know like some crazy shit like that so it wasn't ever like physical or sexual but like massive like emotional mindfuckers serious head games serious and so he my dad had you know he had a lot of his own demons and he started on the path to heal himself as i said to try and pass as little as that as he could off on his, uh, off on his sons. But, you know, he didn't quite get there by the time he had me. So one little thing I would say, I remember one time he was playing ping pong. I was about four years old.

Starting point is 00:28:40 He's playing ping pong. He miss hits a ball. Ball goes flying off the thing. And I run, I run by and I go home run. I'm a little kid. I'm like a ball ball goes flying off the thing and i run i run by and i go home run i'm a little kid i'm like the fucking ball went out of the thing two days later he corners me throws me down in a corner and starts yelling at me how could you how could you insult me like that in front of my competition how dare you blah blah blah and i was like whoa whoa whoa like i didn't i couldn't even fathom that. Like, you know, it is so lost,

Starting point is 00:29:05 you know, gone out of my mind. So it built this kind of fear around everything I say could be misinterpreted. Especially with that delay. Exactly. The delay was the killer. Like if it was right away, you're like, you know, hot stove, ouch. Okay. I get it. But that forced me to internalize it because I'd be going over everything I said the previous day, the previous day. So there's this massive lack of trust around my dad, which I didn't really realize. And then fast going fast forward. And we had a good relationship in a lot of other ways. You know, he was a brilliant man and taught me a lot and I'm grateful for our relationship, but I didn't realize that I never really trusted men, particularly men that had that kind of paternal

Starting point is 00:29:43 role. So anybody who I had in that kind of father category, even peer category, like even when I'd give them a hug, I'd be like, yeah, I'll hug you, but I don't fucking trust you. Like, I don't know if one thing I said, you know, a while ago, or it's going to cause you to go off. And I didn't really realize that I was doing that to more people other than my father. Like it was extending universally to all men until recently, you know, someone who I had held in that kind of father mentor kind of role, our relationship really got, you know, went askew and went haywire. And I realized like, oh shit, you know, I'm really damaged by this. Like this is really traumatic to me. And where's this coming from? Oh, this is coming from my dad.

Starting point is 00:30:22 This is that same pattern. Did that just to occur to you while you're in the shower or what was the were you journaling what what prompted that realization yeah i think it was it came kind of slowly and it was unpacking you know i'm constantly doing different work and introspection and it was somehow that pain that external pain again going back to external pain being one of those indicators, like, why am I fucking devastated by this? Like, why am I completely floored? Why am I, this is applying universally to everything. I was like really crushed. Then I couldn't bounce back.

Starting point is 00:30:55 And then, so it just forced me to keep looking like, what is this? Like, why do I care so much? When you say crushed, was that something your mentor or the person in that role had said to you that threw you off it was an instance that repeated the pattern where i had you know and i don't want to get into the details specifically but like i had said and done you know i'd said and done some things that were interpreted in a way that i didn't intend and it caused a it caused a break in our friendship and a lot of anger and And so it was that pattern of I'm never safe, no matter what I say or do, it can be interpreted in a different way and I'll never be safe. And it really allowed me to look at that and, and analyze that and say, all right,

Starting point is 00:31:37 I got to get to the bottom of this and I got to understand where this is coming from. And simultaneously, like I met Kyle Kingsbury, who's become one of my best friends. Probably if I was to get married now, he'd be my best man. And he's also probably the most stable dude I know. And so like, it was a combination of having one example of like the most, Oh, I can really think I can trust this guy. Like you can push him to the extreme and he doesn't shift like under pain under duress under fatigue under psychedelics under alcohol under anything there's an incredible amount of self awareness from what i've observed yeah of him under duress i've seen him under duress and he

Starting point is 00:32:16 can go from that initial experience of overwhelm to completely centered in a few minutes it's it's remarkable we're talking about Kyle Kingsbury, who's our director of human optimization, former UFC fighter. But yeah, it was a combination of one spinning off and then one being solid and realizing somewhere in there, I can't pinpoint the moment, but I realized, oh, like this is all stuff from my father. I've never really trusted men ever since that point. So that was like a second weird coming of age at 36. I'm about to turn 37 where I finally felt like I wasn't, I didn't need to prove anything to my dad. I didn't need to get validated. I didn't need to show him that I was worthy of love anymore or any other man for that matter. And I could

Starting point is 00:33:00 actually trust that I really do have male friends and I really do have people who I can trust. And I could actually trust that I really do have male friends and I really do have people who I can trust. And if they go off, that's okay. It's not me. It's not my fault. It's just a pattern that happened from when I was growing up. And that's been huge for me. That's been huge because I've always retreated to females as my solace and my comfort and having like male friends that I can really rely on and trust and kind of be vulnerable with in a really authentic way. I mean, I would go do ceremonies and stuff, but I'd always kind of keep my shell up, you know, and now to be able to relax into that, it's just, I feel like a much happier individual, like much more solid, like having,

Starting point is 00:33:41 having, you know, brothers of the way. Yeah. You know, it's cool. Well, if half the people you encounter are like potential threats. Exactly. That's a lot of exactly day-to-day existence. I can't even, I mean, I sympathize so much with people who've had both their, both those roles be off center, off kilter. You know, like if you had your mother and your father, let's say your father was abusive and your mother permitted it. And there was some weird dynamic there. And then both sides, you don't trust. And then you just don't trust the fucking world. Yeah. You know, I was super lucky. I had one soft, one half dialed in, you know, so I had a place to retreat. I had a place to rest. You know, if you have

Starting point is 00:34:18 neither, that's a hell of a challenging road, but the good news is you make it through that. You'll be even stronger because of it. Yeah yeah and you can help people if you do the work and i'm going to get back to the attic in a second but if you do the work what i've realized also just recently and i mean i'm 40 now but if no matter your circumstances or the hand you've been dealt if you do the work to uncover the wounds, heal the wounds, or at least accept that they exist and begin to process that, that you're not only doing the work for yourself, but you can then in turn help other people who've experienced the same thing or similar things, right? So it's really valuable work, hard to understate. That's almost the turning point, right? When you take your lessons and your knowledge, and then you can help other people at that point, you got the inspiration and you got the momentum.

Starting point is 00:35:12 That's the final healing catalyst. It's not healing yourself. It's the knowing that you've everything that you've suffered, all of that pain you've endured can now help someone else. It alchemizes it instantly into something that's valuable, something you can be grateful for. And when you're grateful for something, it's no longer trauma. Like you've healed it. Like that's the full circle is gratitude for that, for what it's given you. Yeah. At least for me too, the regard for myself or healing myself, what is, this sounds really odd to say, but wasn't enough to motivate me to do the work I knew would be really difficult. But as soon as I realized, oh, well, even if I have no regard or very little regard for myself, if I can then develop a toolkit, learn about A, B, and C, and impart that to other people, that's enough to motivate me. And since I have developed more regard for myself, but it's like, hey, you got to take what works.

Starting point is 00:36:05 And for me, it was that realization, oh, i can actually hand this baton off to other people so let's work with what what motivates yeah look at every like great epic novel like like what gets the hero inspired it's not it's not his own safety he's fine like chopping wood and being in the forest but when you know the oppressing force starts fucking with his family or starts fucking with his kids you know then then you unleash william wallace yeah you know like like if they didn't slip myrne's throat like there may not be scotland right you know there's just there's just the uk you know what i mean like what we're wired to really care for those we love almost more than ourself it's just part of the social dynamic and you can tap in, you can like hack into that current and use that to your

Starting point is 00:36:49 advantage. And that's like the cleanest burning fuel you got. That's like a fusion reactor from the sun, you know? And that's, that's really what's going to motivate you. Not the other, you know, ego based stuff. That's like burning coal. You know, you're going to run out of that shit at some point and it's not going to work for for you and you have to breathe in the fumes exactly so you you're just turning or you have turned 37 tomorrow tomorrow happy birthday thanks man uh all right 37 so we if we rewind the clock i think you said 2011 right so you're like 29 30 and fulfilling orders out of the attic. I remember those days, by the way, when I started my first real business also in sports nutrition. I remember when I decided to get a fulfillment company was when I had to race off to the post office to ship off packages.

Starting point is 00:37:41 My car wouldn't start. So I got on my motorcycle, used motorcycle with a garbage bag, big, like dark garbage bag full of boxes. And I'm wrapping it around the throttle to try to make it to the post office, almost die, obviously. And, uh, I get back, I'm like, that was dumb. You didn't want to go. I didn't, I'd your back? I'd have to really switch grips if I went Santa Claus. So I decided just to risk life and limb with it on the throttle. And I came back and I was like, okay, now it's time to start to outsource things. The question I wanted to ask you is, so you get up to bedding the farm. Which is a very small farm.

Starting point is 00:38:22 Yeah, it's a very small farm. Not that great. You're bedding the backyard on this manufacturing on an alpha brain with net 30 terms. If we bounce out, say, two years, so to 32, from 16 to 32, it could even be earlier, from like 12 to 32, do you remember any point in time when you were like, wow, this is the richest I've ever felt? Cause I remember, I remember one very specific day in my experience, but when was that, what was that moment when you're like, wow, like I feel successful or I, wow, this is more than I could have anticipated.

Starting point is 00:39:02 Yeah. I mean, that happened pretty quick after that because that, you know, with those net 30 terms, I was able to, in the sales, I was really able to scale pretty aggressively without taking on extra capital or anything. And we had no overhead. I mean, that was just the cost of the product itself. And a couple of friends who were paying like 25, 30 gram, whatever we could kind of push together. And then, you know, it started to grow a little bit from there, but it was a lot of sales, you know, just product costs and a lot of shipments, no additional advertising. Cause at that point, you know, Rogan was the business partner. He was the advertising engine he'd bought into the company. So I'd given equity

Starting point is 00:39:37 in exchange for the, for the marketing. And I was, you know, there was serious money coming in and I started looking at houses and I was looking at this house and I was thinking maybe, you know, 600, 700 thousand dollar range, really get a house I could sink my teeth into. And I saw this house that was a million dollars. I was like a million dollar house. Damn. I was like, I think I can swing it. I think I can fucking swing it. You know, and it was just because it was my, it was my dream house. You know, it had a nice backyard and I envisioned what's there now,

Starting point is 00:40:08 which is ax throwing and slack line and pool and deck and fire pit. I was like, I can do this here in this house. And it had my style. And I just, you know, at that point again, a little bit early, but I still went for it. Like, I think I can, this thing looks solid enough. I can go in. And when I went into that house, that was like a big moment for me. Cause that was a, that was a real house. That was like a, it was a big boy house. I was like, I got a fucking big boy house. And that was, uh, that was really the moment for me. And I was like, damn, this is awesome. Yeah. And you've turned it into the Aubrey Marcus house of ninja warrior training and assorted delight. It's been heaven.

Starting point is 00:40:50 You mentioned a name that for those people who don't have contacts, I want to explore for a second. So you mentioned Rogan, Joe Rogan. So some of you listening, of course, know who Joe is. Uh, most certainly, uh, I would say arguably the most powerful single sort of interview format podcaster period. Um, part of the inspiration, certainly one of the inspirations for me starting my own podcast was being across the table from Joe and having such a wonderful experience, able to go long form, be myself. He fed me, you know, I don't know if I ever told you this, just, I'm going to digress for a second. Cause that's what I do. Very first time I was on his show uh he said because i've been on twice he said um do you want some bulletproof coffee sure so he gave me like a huge i mean it must have been

Starting point is 00:41:29 like 24 ounces of bulletproof coffee and then he goes you want some alpha brain i was like sure so i had like a handful of alpha brain and then he goes do you want some pot and i was like i don't even smoke pot but i'm a little intimidated. Joe's an intense guy. And I, maybe it's spending time in Japan. I was like, can't say no. All right. So I go into this interview on like 24 ounces of butter coffee, a handful of alpha brain and pot, which I never can. I very rarely consume nothing against it. It's just not really my plant and man oh man that was that was a hell of an experience uh but uh how did you first meet jokes i think this is going to tie into maybe a theme that i want to explore i listened to joe do comedy you know and i'd seen him as i was a huge ufc fan all the way from ufc one literally because my dad was a fan of the sport

Starting point is 00:42:23 we'd watch that together that was some of the good times. His memories of watching sports. It was a brutal first UFC. Yeah, right. I still remember the first match. That Savat foot fighter kicked the tooth out of the sumo guy. Into the commentators. Oh boy, this is different. Yeah. That was pretty epic. And so I'd seen him there. And so I think that probably drew me to listen to his comedy show. And then I listened to his comedy show. I show i was like oh shit he's thinking about the same things that i'm thinking about like he's done psychedelics he's into worrying about aliens and super volcanoes and all this stuff was like man i gotta meet this guy and i kept i kept running into him at different events because i'd go to some of the ufcs you know when i could and i'd see him out and at that point he

Starting point is 00:43:03 was still going to clubs and occasionally going to strip clubs. And did he have the podcast at this point? Uh, no, I don't think he did when I first started at that point. And then, um, but you know, I'm just a fan at that point. So I'd say, Hey Joe, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you know, you get, you're in like kind of fan zone at that point. And you know, I kept, I saw more of his comedy show. Then he launched the podcast. And then that was super early in the podcast game and he had no commercials and it was just him and red band and they were just bullshit. And it was just like a fun thing that everybody who knows Joe Rogan, like all in caps, marquee, Joe Rogan should go back and see some of the early shows. No, no. I think it's inspiring to see where this, where, where it begins.

Starting point is 00:43:41 No doubt. And I had an idea at that point like oh well he doesn't have advertising on his show maybe i'll hit him up for you know to do some advertising and use that as a chance to like meet him and maybe elevate out of the fan zone so we can have a conversation so i remember i set up a lunch meeting to just 30 minutes to just meet somewhere talk to him about advertising on a show this was in la this was in la yeah and did you fly out just for this or you're already there i did and actually it was it was interesting it was like the universe gave me a test so bode miller who i mentioned before olympic skier you know still in his playboy mode at the time he invited me for my first kentucky derby experience and it was like

Starting point is 00:44:18 oh man i got a cancellation got full vip access craziest parties you've ever seen sweet at the kentucky derby and i was like and i had that one meeting with Rogan that was right in the middle of that. I was like, man, I can't go. I got to take this meeting with Joe. And it was like a cool test. Yeah, it was like a cool test, you know? And so I took that meeting and a 30 minute meeting to talk about advertising quickly turned into all those things, psychedelics, super volcanoes, and genetic bottleneck theory and aliens and all the philosophical things that we talked about and after that he's like hey man you know i'd love to have you come on the show and we can talk more about this so i went on the show and just his

Starting point is 00:44:54 friends just started having a relationship with him and it was a couple years after that i asked him the question like hey man like what supplement would you like the best yourself and he's like oh yeah i'm into nootropics and i was like man i'm gonna like the best yourself he's like oh yeah i'm into new nootropics and i was like man i'm gonna make the best one that's ever been made and i'll let you know about it all right so this was like made to order this was like yeah this was it bespoke joe rogan product yeah bespoke it's i didn't know that now you mentioned in passing something earlier and i don't know if this is the product that you were meeting to advertise oh Oh, I bet it was. I bet it was. I bet it was. So you mentioned the S-E-X-T-O-Y-S. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:27 Oh, yeah. So what are we talking about? This was the number one selling male sex toy in the world, the one and only Fleshlight. Fleshlight. Yes. A convenient pocket pussy concealed in a obnoxiously large Fleshlight container. Which, by the way, I should say, on this podcast, had Alice Little, who is the number one earning, as far as I know, legal sex worker in the US. And one of her top recommendations was, I wish I could, or her pronouncements was, I wish I could get a fleshlight for every male in the country for

Starting point is 00:46:03 a number of different reasons. So you've left a legacy. All right. So the people can look that up if they would like. But that was the product context for that meeting. That was. That was the client that I was working with. And I was like, oh, man, maybe Joe will do something with this.

Starting point is 00:46:23 And Joe brought that to his people. People are like, no way you can't. Now, when you say client, so you've, you've done a lot of different things at this point on, it does not exist on, it does not exist. So I have a marketing company and that boutique marketing company has, you know, a few people that are working with me. And I have, again, a bunch of clients, most of which failed, but I couldn't fail at selling sex toys because people just want things to fuck. it was a very easy easy thing to learn and not suck at so i was able to help make that thing work and uh yeah so i had that one going and you know he he liked just the ridiculousness of it and he liked the idea of not taking this show too

Starting point is 00:46:59 seriously to do something like that and so he just went for it and so if you go back to the old there'll be old fleshlight i remember on there and might actually there well let's see so i i came about now did the did the fleshlight and on it overlap at all or no did not so yeah i started on it after i actually got myself in a position where um i was able to transition out of that company with some severance, never got any other incentives, but got a pretty generous severance and took that and just wrote it into, you know, starting on it and just running. And then I had that $110,000 and I tried to dip into that as little as possible with my own, you know, utilization. That was the severance. No, that was the investment from the other person and the iBanker and plus the severance. No, that was the investment from the other person

Starting point is 00:47:45 and the iBanker and plus the severance and just kind of rode that to the, to the very brink of nothing. And then again, it just came through like right in the nick of time. What, what are some of the, if, if I know you read a lot, I've seen your library. Uh, it's one of the first things I do if I get to someone's house and I see a bookshelf or bookshelves as I go start browsing. So you can learn a lot by browsing, uh, including which books I haven't read. Not in your case, but it's like, if you see war and peace, you're like, all right, yeah, definitely. Moby Dick. Like ask about those. Um, I have war and peace. I'm like, a lot. I haven't read it. It's too, it's too intimidating. Uh, I will get to it eventually, but maybe, maybe, yeah. Dot, dot, dot, maybe, uh,

Starting point is 00:48:25 which books or resources do you view as having been very helpful in the early days of, of on it or later, but are there any particular books that helped you, uh, or helped you think about and develop the business? There is a direct correlation between my inner work and the outer success of on it. Like that correlation is as clean, uh, an association as anything I have. So I haven't been one that's read a lot of business books. A lot of the books that I've read have been internally, which is totally fair game. And, um, you know, there's been some really significant books that I've read that have kind of shaped who I am. And I think the first was kind of following that line of the Toltec philosophy from crazy Carlos Castaneda through Don Miguel Ruiz.

Starting point is 00:49:15 And I think actually his most powerful book, although it's a little bit hard to get into, is the Toltec Art of Life and Death, which is a lot of people know Don Miguel Ruiz from the Four Agreements. Four Agreements, yeah. art of life and death which is uh a lot of people know domingo ruiz from the four agreements and then he wrote mastery of love which is an incredible exploration of love and relationship and then his true masterwork is the toltec art of life and death and then the thing i liked about it is it was the first complete system a complete spiritual physical emotional system that you know was self-contained like it was like its own religion to a certain extent but except it was something that i could believe and i could buy into and was practical and i could utilize those principles of the warrior ethos and the principles of the nagwa

Starting point is 00:49:55 the artist who paints his masterpiece you know versus the person who allows the mitote they called it which is the dream of the world to shape their experience and so that transition from just allowing everything expectations and pressures from this person and that person to shape who i was to being becoming the nagual the artist who more proactive yeah who uses your intention to actually create the world around him and paint that masterpiece and and the laughter as the kind of guide you know knowing that you've made it and say that, like, you can tell a spiritual master by the sound of their laughter. Like, if they aren't laughing, I'm not going to drink your cup of ayahuasca. Like, if you don't have a good belly laugh, like, you're missing the point, you know.

Starting point is 00:50:35 And that's been a really solid guidebook and a place that if anybody's searching, you know, I would definitely check out Toltec Philosophy. Toltec. Yeah. Art of Life and death. Any other books come to mind? You know, as far as like building, you know, cause part of building a company is building like a style of 10 years ago,

Starting point is 00:50:55 came to you and said, I need three books. Yeah. What do you recommend? Aldous Huxley's Island, I think was another crucial book for me. And that was, um, cause that was utopian fiction, but the beauty of that is it was seeing how a system could work in mass, you know, and it was the first exposure to rewriting the rules of how everything could be and understanding like, Oh, we could just change everything. Like everything could be malleable. And then what are the

Starting point is 00:51:21 downstream effects? And it's that classic class clash of utopia versus dystopia and how it all merges. And that's been something I've consistently fallen back on with a lot of like help and principles. So I think that one was huge. Um, and then honestly, personally, this has nothing to do with on it, but personally, the book sex at dawn by Chris Ryan was probably the third most influential single book. Uh, because at that point I was frustrated in conventional monogamous relationship. And I thought that humans were like lions and we were supposed to fight to the death to protect all our mates and that women should be happy if they found the right line, you know, and sex at dawn is like, no, no humans like having sex, both sides. We're always going to like having sex.

Starting point is 00:52:05 And that's just the nature of things. And I go, oh, man, like I had this wrong. It's not just me that's supposed to want other lovers. It's everybody that's, you know, from an instinctive primitive concept really is open to having a more expanded view of sexuality. And that's led me down. That was the initial domino that led me down the path of exploring open relationship, which has been a huge advancement in my own personal happiness and fulfillment. Challenging as hell. I mean, challenging as hell. But that book, if it wasn't for that book, I don't think I ever would have given it a try because I was operating under a false premise. So for people who are listening and they're like, you know what? I'd like to give that more expanded view of sexuality a shot. Any guideposts, any particular guidelines?

Starting point is 00:52:51 You have to be super committed. Do not know that it's going to be hell. You can have it all sorted. I had it all sorted mentally. I understood it philosophically, I understood it spiritually, I understood i understood it biologically understood it in evolutionary terms but the moment that whitney had another lover i spent 24 hours crawling around on the ground vomiting every time i thought of her having sex with somebody else like literally dry heaving like like a massive purge that i couldn't even shake myself out of like and that was that was step one. And then it gets a little bit better from there if you continue to do the work, but it takes a while to make it through. Like you got to literally go through the darkness, you know, the dark night of the soul of your own insecurities, all your fears and insecurities and validation points. Everything is going to be stress tested and challenged. If make it through you'll be really free these things

Starting point is 00:53:45 like jealousy these things like insecurities they will get pushed to the point where you either fix them or you just suffer and and in unbearable pain so it forces you again external pain is that force it'll put you in pain and then it's up to you whether you can fix it or not so we can spend an entire podcast just discussing this and uh you know I have spent the equivalent of many podcasts talking about this. So maybe another time. But if we're looking back, this could be professional or personal. And of course they're so, I mean, they're two sides of the same coin, no matter how you slice it.

Starting point is 00:54:19 But do you have any particular failure that you can discuss? And I put failure in quotation marks because the goal is to describe a failure that later ended up setting the stage or planting a seed for a success later down the line. Are there any failures that come to mind or a failure that you just learned a lot from and therefore that helped you later? You know, I failed at so many things and every single failure was helpful. Like every single fucking failure was helpful. And there's not one that stands out, but there's some that I remember. Like I remember early in the days of on and I was allowed myself to get really stressed and I was trying to record a video and someone was knocking on my door and I didn't respond. I was trying to stay in line with video and they kept knocking and they kept knocking. This was when we had about 12 employees, 14 employees. And I blew up, I lost it. You know,

Starting point is 00:55:15 a little bit of my dad coming out, what, what the fuck do you want? If I don't answer the door, when you knock, then I'm fucking busy. You know, I blew up. Right. And, and then I was like, oh man, and I go out and I opened the door and it was like the sweetest employee we had you know and i think her name was samantha and she's crying and i go oh my god like what did i just do like she didn't know you know like and that was like a hard lesson like i am not going to lose my temper no matter what is going on in my life i will not allow my anger to come out on my employees ever. You know, and it was like this deep, like I internal, like that was deeply painful for me. Times I've done that in relationships too, you know, where I've projected my own shit and put that on somebody else and watch them suffer from the pain that I've caused.

Starting point is 00:56:00 And then having to deal with that businesses, every business, like I said, every business I did failed. And then me questioning my own self-worth, like I'm grateful for all of that. And I'm sorry for the people who had to suffer along the way, the people who bet on me and invested in me and I failed in their shit and the people who I hurt with my anger and the people who I hurt with my projections. But I'm grateful for the experience because without all of that and without the grace of that happening, I wouldn't be a fraction of who I am.

Starting point is 00:56:29 Allergic to anger. Something I wrestle with something, something I grapple with myself. The anger piece I'd love to touch on this because this is also part of my familiar cast of characters. And I think I've greatly improved over time with managing that as an impulse, something that really was embedded in me early. And after that experience, what was your pattern interrupt? What did you say to yourself when you felt like the physiological response of about to hit takeoff in terms of losing temper, getting angry? What was the technique? What was the approach? You know, it coincided with me talking, because I started talking about that experience.

Starting point is 00:57:23 If I may. Yeah, of course i was talking to my friend duncan trussell who's pretty steeped in you know kind of buddhist philosophy and he had a name for it i think it was shunpa and it's that feeling you get it's that welling of energy it's and it actually feels good and i think it was acknowledging like there's some part of you that when that anger is coming it like feels it's a sense of power that's rising and it's identifying that and the toltec philosophy also helps us don miguel helped me with that but you feel it rising and it's like the sweat it's like the swell of a wave and there's a choice

Starting point is 00:57:57 right there where you either paddle or you don't paddle but to really identify the swell and identify like oh yeah this is gonna feel good like that power putting on that mantle and like breathing fire like it's going to feel good in certain ways but the ramifications like never feel good you know the burning bodies the house is on fire when you're breathing that dragon fire that never feels good so it's really a hard choice i call it mental override to interrupt that that pattern I feel that shumpa or whatever Duncan called it. That moment of takeoff where I start to bristle and the dragon fucking tentacles come out and it starts to come. Like I can identify.

Starting point is 00:58:38 Actually, oddly enough, I haven't felt this in a long time. I felt it yesterday, like yesterday. And I looked, I was leaving my office and literally I haven't been this angry in a long time. I felt it yesterday, like yesterday. And I looked, I was leaving my office and literally I haven't been this angry in a long time. And someone's, you know, someone on my team screwed something up super bad. And it was the second time on the same thing. I was like, Oh my God. And I found out about it at seven o'clock and I looked at a table and I wanted to smash it. I wanted to take the table and throw it on the ground and like smash it. And then I was like, oh yeah, there's that thing.

Starting point is 00:59:08 Like I remember how I used to deal with this thing. All right, I'm going to go for a walk outside and I would go for a walk outside. And then I read this Japanese study and I talk about this in my book where six breaths, six deep breaths actually lowers blood pressure. So they say take a breath. It's not a breath. It's six. Like six is the

Starting point is 00:59:25 amount that it requires to get that physiological response so i took my six breaths i walked outside and it wasn't gone like i carried it for a while i talked to people but i at least eliminated it enough that that initial wave of the the big wave of the swell passed so the big wave of the swell passed and i i paddled into a few other little ones you know i body surfed on some white water of that rage for a little while did a little long boring oh yeah and i you know i fucking hammered a few emails and you know paddled into it a little bit but just my ability to recognize that and then trust the process that i'll be grateful that i didn't paddle into that wave even if it would have felt good at the moment. Um, it's just been a gradual, slow experience. Well, you mentioned a couple

Starting point is 01:00:11 of things I want to underscore. Number one is that it's not a binary pass fail, right? It's not, it's not, I completely quelled all of my anger. Therefore I succeeded. And if I didn't do that, it's a failure. It's like, no, if you dial back 10%, that's a big deal. Totally. Right. It's the difference between like, Hey, fuck face in an email and like, dear John, right? I mean, that's, that's 10% is really meaningful. Yeah. Uh, so, so that's, that's one thing that it can be incremental, but the, the downstream effect of it can be much larger than that small increment of change you feel. The second, when you're talking about failures, is that what a lot of folks might perceive as a failure, which is a path that isn't taken to completion over 10, 20, 30 years, can still have a lot of value.

Starting point is 01:01:00 And that's why I brought up the fleshlight. If it were not for that, you wouldn't have had the context to have the meeting yep which then led to i owe my success to pocket pussies well that that actually leads us to this might be your answer uh this this leads us to i'm gonna hit a couple of uh a couple of rapid fire questions i'll try not to make them long winded and therefore not rapid at all. But if you could put one short message or quote anything on a billboard, metaphorically speaking, just to get a message out to millions or billions of people, what would you put on it? You know, I heard you ask this question to Wim Hof and he said, breathe, motherfucker. That was like the best answer to that. So I think about this and, you know, I think other podcasters have kind of co-opted that

Starting point is 01:01:48 question and asked it. And, you know, I was thinking about that question and, you know, I was thinking I wasn't happy with my answer. And then I realized like what I feel now, what best expressed the state I'm in is what I would put on that billboard that was shown everywhere. I would say, welcome to heaven, population, everyone. And that's really what I feel like we have this choice right now to engage with life, all of life and all the opportunity to smell and eat and travel and converse and meet people and

Starting point is 01:02:16 have sex and enjoy and create and build like this can be heaven, but we got to get out of our own mental health first. And so reminding people like, hey, all right, extenuating circumstances, maybe Sarajevo in certain places. Yeah, it's fucking tough. I get it. Externally, it might be hell. But for most of us, especially listening to this podcast, we're in heaven. We're in heaven. And it's just our choice whether we want to engage in it that way or whether we want to get stuck in our own patterns that keep us in hell. What, what tools, and I'll volunteer one, I'm, I'm, I'm a beta testing this, so it's

Starting point is 01:02:50 not really fair, but I'm, I'm beta testing the waking up app, which Sam Harris is putting together. And it's, it's actually been tremendously helpful and very unlike other programs I've tested for producing the non-ordinary states of awareness that one might correlate to the psychedelic experience. Yeah. And Sam's no stranger in that arena, but he certainly passed on the chemical and plant infusions to focus on the meditative component. And I've found that very

Starting point is 01:03:27 helpful for becoming less reactive and more response able in terms of being able to choose the lens through which I look at the day and my interactions. What else have you found helpful personally for living that billboard? You know, one of the best ones that I've found is came to me really unusually and it's the practice of ecstatic dance. And cause a lot of the, even psychedelics, you know, psychedelics, they kind of project your consciousness out of body. You know, from my very first experience, it was like, my body was gone. Like I didn't have that body somatic awareness. So it was creating and patterning the separation between consciousness mind and body and then when i first did the ecstatic dance practice i had no idea i was like

Starting point is 01:04:11 oh my gosh this is really uncomfortable because the idea is you listen to music and then you just move not trying you have a blindfold a lot of times or a really dark room and you just move in expressive ways that push the boundaries of what your body is comfortable with not physically but comfortable and moving and just collapse the mind, get to a state of super fluidity, a kind of flow state where it's just music and body. And I was shocked at how I responded. I mean, tons of emotions came up, tons of like clarity came up. I had visions that were coming through in that experience. And it was this massive, massive transformation for me because I felt it all the way through to my cells. You know, instead of getting the body out of the way, it was using the body as a tool to enhance my consciousness.

Starting point is 01:04:55 And so it unified everything else. Instead of siloing it and kind of pulling it apart, it was pushing it all together in a really powerful way. And, you know know i've started leading those practices and doing those frequently like i will if i'm feeling funky i will just put on music put on a hoodie and i can be anywhere i was just in venice doing it in my little rental house in middle of the day i felt feeling kind of funky from recording the book and whatever i just start moving and i contentionally find those patterns that sends off the alarm signals like don't move your hips like that because you'll be gay if you move your arms too far out like they extend beyond one foot totally gay like you can't do that you know and just force yourself to

Starting point is 01:05:35 move into these other patterns that you're uncomfortable with and let it let your body like let your body loose let your body free we bind that up just like we bind up our psyche and when you unbind the body and allow it to express freely in this safe container not saying go to the club and do it you know that's a lot of external pressure right but in this case you know do it by yourself in a dark room put on some music put on something with a tribal beat and force yourself to move in those uncomfortable patterns and see what boundaries and restrictions you have for yourself and then realize like where is that coming from yeah i can't allow myself to move in space by myself in the dark what the hell yeah you know and so that's been a really cool tool for me that

Starting point is 01:06:17 i don't think a lot of people are engaging in but it's something that ancestrally man everybody was dancing as part of like sun dance rituals tr trance dance rituals, all these dance rituals. That was part of a major part of ceremony for people. And I think it's great to make you feel more human again and take that performance aspect off of dancing. Like when you dance in public, it's like a mating dance. It's like a performance show. And it's all about how you look. In this case, it doesn't matter how you look.

Starting point is 01:06:43 It doesn't matter if it even approximates dancing it's about getting your body to move and so many times just the tears will flow and the and and emotions will come up sometimes rage and anger sometimes they're will all come out in that too if i've been bottling that up so it just allows the instrument to release and expel anything that's been holding. And typically by the end, you know, you just allow that those snowflakes of joy to just come in and touch your skin. It's, it's dope. How long, how long is a session typically? How frequently do you try to do it? Any music recommendations? Yeah. Um, you can do it shorter, but I think minimum you need, you need probably 20, 30 minutes because the first 10, 15 minutes, you're still going to be getting into it.

Starting point is 01:07:28 And like the real magic happens in the middle and then fatigue starts to set in depending on your fitness level around 30 to 40 minutes. So I try to take an arch from, I actually, when I do it, I follow Stan Grof's basic prenatal matrices kind of model. I don't know what that is. Okay. So that starts like you're in the womb, right? It very comfortable some kind of music that's you know smooth it's like you're everything's taken care of the universe is good some very kind of happy any

Starting point is 01:07:53 any playlists you can recommend or um what would people search for that for that music anything with kind of like a very slow positive kind of beat you You know, I have, I have like obscure spiritual music. This would be like massage, tribal music. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, feels good. It's happy. And then, um, then I go into, then the next thing that happens is like the water breaks, it's chaos, right? So chaos around you, you know, you're imagining in this, in the birth process, the water breaks, you don't know what's happening. So the prenatal is like five minutes ten minutes yeah like six seven minutes and it's just kind of swaying i usually stretch a lot of times it's kind of stretch sometimes i lie on the ground a little bit a little bit joint mobility a little bit stretching getting into it

Starting point is 01:08:35 and then you know if i'm doing the practice i'll go into that more chaotic mode which is a little still hard to dance to and it forces me to do weird patterns and i like violin like lindsey sterling oh yeah it's a great one and then so it's like some weird kind of staccato violin some beats antique uh music is sometimes good in there something yeah beats antique is great beats antique is awesome lindsey sterling violin also we brought up alice little earlier one of her favorite types of music to have sex to no shit side note i see that i see that then from there i go to like there is the fight and that's where you actually see the birth canal and you know you have a goal tunnel vision you got to get out you got to breathe you're going

Starting point is 01:09:15 to fight with everything you have to breathe and that's that warrior archetype so for that it's almost always tribe called red like that's my go-to and that's like edm mixed with um like tribal native american cries and there's some great great tracks for that um like a electric powwow like some awesome tracks for that and then so from there that's where you really start to express that kind of warrior archetype and allow any of those emotions to come and then finally at the end is the more kind of ecstatic you know blissful but still a beat so some like really upbeat edm or some really positive uplifting music and i usually will take a break with something that's kind of quiet and serene like welcome to africa everything is beautiful kind of vibe and then into some more you know

Starting point is 01:10:03 positive message like edm and just kind of dance it out and really enjoy and express like the happiness of taking that breath rebirthing becoming a new you know being embracing your new self and that's the bpm4 which is the you know the ecstasy of of breath and uh and so that's the that's the pathway for the full kind of shamanic road sometimes i'll just go straight to the uh straight to the tribe called red my you know our i think you've met him too porongi who came out with this ayahuasca remixed album he's got a couple great tribal drum tracks which are good um there's a remix from drum spider and uh mosaic in there i think

Starting point is 01:10:41 it's tracks three and tracks eight on that you can get it on Spotify but I can share a Spotify playlist too of an ecstatic dance all right I will for everybody listening I'll put the Spotify playlist in the show notes and it's what strikes me listening to this because I know nothing about ecstatic dance is that the narrative is really important. I mean, it seems like the, it's not, it's not the hero's journey, but the, the narrative arc of the playlist is really important. Yeah. And this is just something that I came up with. I've been a, obviously, you know, my father worked with Stan Grof, so I've been, he's used that metaphor and it just kind of stuck with me like, oh yeah, these are all things we feel everything's cool oh shit everything's not cool everything's fucked up and then like

Starting point is 01:11:29 all right everything's fucked up and i'm gonna fight and i don't care and there's a way out and i'm gonna fucking make it and it's just kind of pound your chest like i got this and then it's like through the other side like i got this because i got all this help and i'm fucking grateful and here i am and that's you, the tears really flow like at the end. And you're like, man, life is good. Now, do you use this therapeutically when needed? Or is it something that you do preemptively or on a scheduled basis to prevent? Yeah, I should do it more like prophylactically, like preventatively.

Starting point is 01:12:03 But I tend to do it when i feel funky like when i feel funky i'm either changing my temperature drastically going in the sauna or going in the cold or doing something like this and but this is probably the best tool because everything it really just unifies everything for me you know it brings you also don't need anything you just need a little bit of privacy or someone you feel comfortable. Now at this point, I'm actually comfortable doing it with other people like watching. Cause I've talked about it enough, you know, and it's a little external pressure, but then you just breathe into that pressure. Like the goal here is to go where you're uncomfortable. So like when

Starting point is 01:12:40 you're comfortable alone, then invite somebody who might be a little judgmental and see, all right, can you still dance? Can you still that? Cause I guarantee you by the time you're comfortable alone, then invite somebody who might be a little judgmental and see, all right, can you still dance? Can you still that? Because I guarantee you by the time you're done and you've just expressed yourself, their judgment is going to be gone and they'll probably be dancing with you. You know, so breathing in, it's that, you know, kind of stoic training, like breathe into those areas where you feel restricted, where you feel judgmental, where you feel like the eyes are on you and try to unify that all together. Yeah. It reminds me of a quote and I'm not going to get the attribution, right? Wait a second. Donald Neil Walsh, maybe someone I'm sure it might be Jim Rohn. Someone can correct me, but life begins at the end of your comfort zone. And this is, and how do you put that into practice?

Starting point is 01:13:22 It's with activities like this i mean training regimens like this especially for men who are tough like men are tough and like a tough man can get in a cold bath and a tough man can get in a in a sauna for a long time yeah and it's like it's in our sweet spot we're like yeah i got that it's comfortable discomfort it's comfortable discomfort this is uncomfortable dancing getting your arms way out there and moving those around and shaking your hips that's uncomfortable yeah that's real uncomfortable but when you break those patterns then there's just a whole new freedom that's available so you mentioned uh we'll we'll go for just a couple more minutes but you mentioned the book so i have a copy of this at home

Starting point is 01:14:03 and a number of people picked it up and also almost immediately gone to the sex chapters, uh, under understandably, but can you describe the book? Give us, give us, uh, a preview. Why, why the book, what is it called? How did you choose the contents? Let's start, let's start there. Well, really this book is the embodiment of that idea of total human optimization, which is not just one thing. You know, I really admire the people, you know, yourself as one of those people who you'll track something down to the very nth degree and like really bring home the bones of that truth from your journey. And I've been surrounded by a lot

Starting point is 01:14:40 of people who've done that, but what I felt like was missing was someone to bring it all together, like bring all the practices who've tried all of the different things. And how does that look? How does it look to go through a day? Like what's the morning things you do? Okay. Hydration, light movement. Okay. Then how do you bring in Wim Hof breathing and cold exposure, heat exposure? What are the nutrition principles you want? Like how do you optimize your commute to work? What are some workplace practices that you've learned? Then how, when you go home, how do you relax and connect with yourself and connect with your, your family and your friends? And how do you drink a glass of wine? What's too much glass? What's too much wine? What happens when you drink too much? Cause that's all part of life. Like addressing all of those things, how to have great sex and then how to,

Starting point is 01:15:22 you know, transition from that into the time before bed, where you're taking care of yourself and journaling. And then from there, the sleep practices, sleep was a huge one for me because everybody's telling you, and there's a bunch of bullshit out there. Like everybody's saying, oh, you need eight, eight, eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. Like that's a fucking fantasy. Like I might as well be riding a fucking unicorn with a, you know, rainbow headband. like that's not gonna happen for me you know so i read nick littlehale's book sleep and he talks about getting 30 to 35 sleep cycles a week and then changing the dynamic of that utilizing naps more i napped right before this

Starting point is 01:15:56 podcast and how naps are reliably shown to be more effective than more overnight sleep or more coffee and so just bringing in all these interesting things from books I've read, people I've met with, you know, people who've researched in different areas and try to bring this into a comprehensive day, along with all my own mindset practices, like talking about mental override, telling stories about Bodie Miller and the great fighters I know and the great champions I know, and just put this together and also remind people like, Hey, like I'm not, I haven't got it all right. You know, I tell the stories of when I used to eat, like relentlessly eat cinnamon pop tarts, how unbelievably unfathomably nutritionally bad that was, you know, it's like sugar frosting on

Starting point is 01:16:37 sugar dough on sugar filling. Yeah. Like what? Triple the triple ground. What, what was that you know but i was there i did that stuff the double western bacon cheeseburgers and how what the new double western bacon cheeseburger looks like with grass-fed beef and raw cheese and sprouted or sourdough bread and and how you can just live this robust life you know not engaging with capital f fear which is i think the virus that underpins a lot of our malaise and try to have a real healthy, joyful expression and, you know, recognize this life, as I said on that billboard, you know, welcome to heaven. What is the title of the book? Book's called Own the Day, Own Your Life. And the idea is, you know, fuck all these long-winded transformational programs where you focus on one thing for 30 days, 40 days, 90 days.

Starting point is 01:17:24 Let's just focus on doing one day awesomely, you know, from top to bottom, schedule it out, get all the practices in line. I have very clear prescriptions. Let's just focus on one day and see how you feel living one day like that. And that's all you got to do. Just commit to one day, not only one day, just commit to one hour at a time. Just commit to like, all right, what are the three things I got to do when I wake up? All right. 12 ounces of water with some sea salt and some lemon. Okay. I got that.

Starting point is 01:17:48 All right. 10 minutes of sunlight. Okay. I got that. A little bit of movement. Okay. I got that. Whew. On to the next thing.

Starting point is 01:17:52 You know, that's all you got to do. Step by step, relax into the process, do it for one day and see what changes in your life. And when in doubt, six breaths. Six breaths to quell the dragon fire so you don't burn down villages uh what uh this is the the book do you have a do you have a site for the book yeah own the day book.com own the day book dot com and if if you were let's see i'm trying to think of the right age to choose. You can choose the age of your younger self. It could be at that 29, 30, just getting started on it. It could be far before.

Starting point is 01:18:33 It could be you of a year ago. It doesn't matter. You can pick the age, but what advice, if you had to give advice to your younger self or someone just like you? Because a lot of people like me are like, I don't want to step on the butterfly because I'm pretty happy with where I am. So I wouldn't give any advice. But if you had to give some advice to either a younger version of yourself or just someone who's similarly built.

Starting point is 01:18:55 Yeah, advice to my younger self is going to be, you know, relax, man, it's going to be all right. It's going to fucking be all right. You know, it's this crazy thing where like in hindsight, we can always look backwards and say, man, I'm grateful for all that shit. Like I'm grateful for all my failures, but with foresight, we look at everything that's coming ahead with terror. This next thing is going to be, Oh, that's going to be the one that knocks me out. Oh, that next illness is going to be the one that kills me. Oh, that next failure, that's going to be devastating, but always in hindsight, we're grateful. So what if we switched our hindsight into foresight and

Starting point is 01:19:28 was like, oh, whatever happens, I'll just be grateful for it later anyways. And then all of a sudden we're really enjoying ourselves, you know? And I, I was terrible at that. The first few years I started on it, I was petrified that it was going to fail because I was so attached to its success. I'm finally doing it. I'm finally doing it. It's going to fail. I didn't know it's going to fail. It's going to fail. I'm going to ruin it. You know, and I didn't enjoy it and I didn't really enjoy those initial formative years like I could have. And, you know, so in almost every age and almost every era, it would be relax, man, trust, like trust, whatever happens, you'll figure out a way you'll be better, stronger, faster, you know, wiser for it. So be grateful for it in advance. Dig it. And where can people say hi on the internet, learn more about what you're up to?

Starting point is 01:20:14 Where would you like people to check you out, your projects and so on? Yeah. I think I, you know, Instagram is probably my most active, you know, I post to all the social platforms, but it's just at Aubrey Marcus on on instagram and i curate all those posts myself and it's a good wide variety of me doing weird stuff in the gym and me posting spiritual quotes and different ideas and i actually look forward to those times where i get you know sideswiped by the universe because i always have some pearl i can come and i generally put that out on instagram or a podcast. And, and of course my podcast to the Aubrey Marcus podcast, that's a great place to listen to me, have some cool conversations with people.

Starting point is 01:20:50 Perfect. And I will link to all of that in the show notes for folks as usual, Tim dot blog forward slash podcast for all of the links, resources, books, and so on that we've discussed. Aubrey, good to hang man.

Starting point is 01:21:02 Yeah, man. Yeah. I'll go, I'll go under over. There we go. We're still figuring out the setup here with the wires that is my fault

Starting point is 01:21:08 I'll take all the blame slash credit I should have gone under next time, a little how's your father I had a friend who grew up in a cannibal tribe and that was the traditional he's a famous author by the way and that was the traditional greeting they would grab each other's genitals and give and they would tell them you know what they would tell them no i would eat

Starting point is 01:21:30 your feces wow that was the greeting grab someone's genitals and say i would eat your feces i hear that's the new thing to do in brooklyn yeah that's the hipster way to do it guys so feel free to take that by the way 0.01 people who listen to this podcast and take everything literally, that's a joke. Please don't do that. You might get shot in the face. No, that's not allowed.

Starting point is 01:21:49 Aubrey, always fun to hang, man. Thanks for taking the time. Thanks brother. And to everybody listening as always until next time. Thank you for listening. Be safe out there and don't forget six breaths.

Starting point is 01:22:02 Talk to you soon. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email

Starting point is 01:22:23 where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering for the weekend. And five bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the, uh, the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one.

Starting point is 01:23:03 And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. Whether you need a logo, custom website, app, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make great design accessible to everyone, that's you, and to make the process as easy as possible. I've used 99designs for years now. I've used them for book covers, some mock-ups for the 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller, illustrations of all different types for the multi-volume The Tao of Seneca, which you can check out, and other graphic design projects for a long time now. And I've been very impressed by the quality of their designers and illustrators. And you don't have to take my word for it. You should check out some of my projects at 99designs.com forward slash Tim. I really encourage you to take a look

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Starting point is 01:24:32 listeners who have used 99designs for logos, apps, even product packaging. So check it out, 99designs.com forward slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. And I'd heard about Peloton over and over again, but I ended up getting a Peloton bike in the whole system after I saw my buddy Kevin Rose. I've known him forever. Some of you know. And he showed up at my gate at my house a while back

Starting point is 01:25:00 and he looked fantastic. And I asked him, I said, dude, you look great. What the hell have you been up to? Because he's always doing a weird diet or another, but it only lasts like a week or two. So he always regresses to the mean after like 75 beers. And he said, I've been doing Peloton five days a week. Now that caught my attention because Kevin does nothing five days a week. And you know, I love you, Kevin. But it really piqued my curiosity, ended up getting a system, and it's become an integral part of my week. I love it, and I really didn't expect to love it at all because I find cycling really boring usually.

Starting point is 01:25:37 But Peloton is an indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right into your home. You don't have to worry about fitting classes in your schedule or making it to a studio with some type of commute, etc. New classes are added every day, and this includes options led by elite New York City instructors in your own living room. You can even live stream studio classes taught by the world's best instructors or find your own favorite class on demand. And in fact, Kevin and I rarely do live classes, and you can compete with your friends, which is also fun. Kevin, I'm coming after you. But we usually just use classes on demand. I really like Matt Wilpers and his high-intensity training sessions that are shorter, like 20 minutes.

Starting point is 01:26:17 And I think Kevin's favorite is Alex, and everyone seems to have their favorite instructor or you can select by music duration and so on. Each Peloton bike includes a 22 inch HD touchscreen performance tracking metrics. I think that along with the real-time leaderboard are the main reasons that this caught my attention when cycling never had caught my attention before. It's really pretty stunning what they've done with the user interface to keep your attention. The belt drive is quiet and it's smaller than you would expect. So it can fit in a living room or an office. I actually have it in a large closet, believe it or not, and it fits with no problem. So Peloton is offering all of you guys, listeners of the Tim Ferriss Show, a special offer. And it is actually special. Visit One Peloton. That's O-N-E-P-E-L-O-T-O-N, onepeloton.com and enter the code TIM, all caps, T-I-M,

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