The Tim Ferriss Show - #307: Karlie Kloss - Entrepreneur and Supermodel

Episode Date: April 4, 2018

Karlie Kloss (IG: @karliekloss) is an entrepreneur and supermodel who was discovered at a local charity fashion show at age 13 and has been modeling professionally ever since.Karlie has walked for and starred in campaigns for top designers including Calvin Klein, Oscar de la Renta, Dior, Louis Vuitton, Marc Jacobs, Versace, Adidas, Carolina Herrera, and Swarovski, among many others.Outside of modeling, Karlie's personal passion for coding led her to launch Kode With Klossy, a nonprofit that empowers young women to code and become leaders in tech -- poised to expand in 2018 to 50 camps in 25 cities.Time Magazine has recognized Karlie for her entrepreneurship and philanthropic work on its 100 Most Influential People list, and she has also been featured on the covers of Fast Company and Forbes for her work with Kode with Klossy.Karlie hosts Freeform six-part series Movie Night with Karlie Kloss and is a correspondent for Netflix's Bill Nye Saves the World.If you're interested in learning more about Karlie's coding camps (applications and deadlines are coming soon), check out kodewithklossy.com/apply.Enjoy!This podcast is brought to you by 99Designs, the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. I have used them for years to create some amazing designs. When your business needs a logo, website design, business card, or anything you can imagine, check out 99Designs.I used them to rapid prototype the cover for The Tao of Seneca, and I've also had them help with display advertising and illustrations. If you want a more personalized approach, I recommend their 1-on-1 service. You get original designs from designers around the world. The best part? You provide your feedback, and then you end up with a product that you're happy with or your money back. Click this link and get a free $99 upgrade. Give it a test run...This podcast is also brought to you by FreshBooks. FreshBooks is the #1 cloud bookkeeping software, which is used by a ton of the start-ups I advise and many of the contractors I work with. It is the easiest way to send invoices, get paid, track your time, and track your clients.FreshBooks tells you when your clients have viewed your invoices, helps you customize your invoices, track your hours, automatically organize your receipts, have late payment reminders sent automatically and much more.Right now you can get a free month of complete and unrestricted use. You do not need a credit card for the trial. To claim your free month and see how the brand new Freshbooks can change your business, go to FreshBooks.com/Tim and enter "Tim Ferriss" in the "how did you hear about us" section.***If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews!For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Please fill out the form at tim.blog/sponsor.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to tease out, distill, share the habits, routines, life lessons, belief systems, and so on of world-class performers from all different domains. This episode features entrepreneur and supermodel Carly Kloss. That's two Ks. You can find her on Instagram and elsewhere at Carly Kloss, K-A-R-L-I-E-K-L-O-S-S. Carly was discovered at a local charity fashion show at age 13. And by this point, I think she's been on 45, 50 covers, something like that. Carly's fashion career quickly took off and she's walked for top designers, including Oscar de la Renta, Christian Dior, Alexander McQueen, and Versace, among others. She's also starred in many major campaigns, including Adidas, or Adidas, depending on where you're listening to this, Donna Karan, Dolce & Gabbana, Dior,

Calvin Klein, Carolina Herrera, if I'm getting that right, showing my stripes here, and Swarovski, among many, many others. But I wanted to have Carly on this show, not just because of her modeling career, of course, which I think gets discounted because thousands, tens of thousands of women or girls come into the world of modeling, and very few make it to the top, and very few last a long time, and very, very few still are able to translate it to other things. Outside of modeling, Carly's passion for technology led her to take coding classes, learning to program. Endless possibilities, she then launched Code with Klossy, K-O-D, Code with Klossy, a nonprofit that empowers young women to learn to code and become leaders in tech, which in 2018 will expand to 50 camps in 25 cities and may go well beyond that.

Time Magazine has recognized Carly for her entrepreneurship and philanthropic work on its Time 100 list, and she was also featured on the covers of Fast Company and Forbes for her work with Code with Klossy. Carly hosts Freeform's six-part series, Movie Night with Carly Kloss, and is a correspondent for the Netflix original series, Bill Nye Saves the World. And this will come up again at the very end, but if you are interested in learning more about Carly's coding camps and application deadlines are coming soon, check out codewithklossy.com forward slash apply. That's codewithklossy, all Ks, codewithklossy.com forward slash apply.

And without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Carly Kloss. Carly, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Tim. I'm so thrilled to have you here. And I just want to make a few observations slash comments up front. So the first is, I have a researcher who helps me with some prep documents. I certainly do my own prep. And his documents are usually very straightforward uh he is affectionately called the crazy bulgarian he's not crazy i just thought that he should trademark that he is from bulgaria and he put a note at the top of yours he never adds notes and the note is so open parentheses note in all caps oh my gosh she sounds like the nicest person on the planet, end parentheses. Wow, that's quite the compliment.

So that caught my attention. Thank you. And I should also say that I have a face made for audio. And this is a relatively new experiment with video. And this is the highest beauty differential that I've ever had on my show. No, no, no, no, no. Come on. And I'm okay with it.

Maybe height, but not no, no, no. Come on. And I'm okay with it. Maybe height, but not these. Height also. So if you, if those of you who are listening through your ear holes want to see a shiny bulbous head gnome on video, then you can find me side by side with Carla. Next to a giraffe, which is me.

So I wanted to start with talking about modeling. Yes. And there are a lot of beautiful people on this planet. And there are many people who go into modeling. And there are very, very few who get to where you are. And it strikes me that there are some, it would seem, success cases of, in this case, women who have gone off to build incredible

businesses like Kathy Ireland and there are others. So I wanted to start with asking you if you had, when you were getting started or even now, any role models among women or men who have gone from modeling to do other things. I mean, you certainly mentioned one, Kathy Ireland. There's a long list. Cindy Crawford, Christy Turlington, Giselle, many women who are in the industry and have used their platform or voice or experiences

to build businesses or to make meaningful impact in the world in whatever way they're passionate about. And for me, that is success. And I don't know. Yeah, I did not anticipate working in fashion or being a model, but I recognize somewhere along the line that there's so much more you can do with it.

And the women who have come before me certainly have proved that. It seems like from the outside looking in that much like, say, entertainment, the machinery of fashion, beauty, and so on probably has a lot of casualties, meaning it just chews up and spits out a lot of people. There's really, it would seem to be- There's a lot of people. There's really, it would seem to be- There's a lot of turnover. A lot of turnover. Yeah. What were some of the key decisions that you and or your family or people like managers made

that helped you to navigate, to avoid some of the most common pitfalls? Maybe you could just start with like, what are some of the most common mistakes and pitfalls? Sure, I mean, honestly, Tim, I feel like I'm living my own version of a Cinderella story or an American dream. I mean, I have been able to travel the world and have been able to learn from the most

extraordinary people. I'm sitting here with you talking. I mean, I feel like I'm living a dream every day. And I certainly did not anticipate going into fashion or being a model. I, I had a very different kind of career path in mind and I, I, I had this opportunity and I, and I took it. What was the, what was the opportunity? So I was, you grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in the Midwest and my father's a doctor. He's an emergency room physician, one of the most hardworking people you'll ever meet,

and so selfless. And I have three sisters, and my mom's an artist, and so I just grew up in this amazing, Midwestern, picturesque kind of childhood. And at 13, I was stopped in a mall and asked if I would be interested in walking in a fashion show. At the time, not only did I not care about, it just wasn't my life, fashion. I mean, I didn't even subscribe to magazines. I was focusing on school. I was focusing on ballet,

academics, and sports. And so anyway, this idea of modeling was totally not even in my mind. And so I didn't enter this with the ambition of building a career in modeling. I was stopped in a mall at 13, walked in a local charity fashion show to raise money for a local family who's my friend's father. Her dad had cancer. So it was this charity benefit and there were scouts there from real agencies and they took my name and said, let's stay in touch. I grew a couple inches fast forward to when I'm 15. How tall are'11 yeah it's painful I'm still working I'm still working on 5'9 I'm 40 look I'm gonna get there I believe in you I believe in you um and so anyway so I was 15 years old and I got this opportunity to go to New York for the weekend and meet the designers of Calvin Klein and they booked me. And I walked

in their fashion show and it completely kind of put me on the map as a new up and coming model. And it's been a wild ride ever since that day in the mall when I was stopped. What are the traps? What are the common pitfalls? I mean, the things that, having grown up on Long Island, and for instance, I mean, I grew up at the very end of Long Island where there are actually a lot of drug problems. And not saying that it's drugs, although I suspect that could be a piece of it,

but where do people get off track or make mistakes? Sure. I mean, I think there's a piece of it, but like where, where do people get off track or make mistakes? Sure. I mean, I think there's a lot of misconceptions and I think there's a lot of generalizations around, around the fashion industry, around the modeling industry. And, um, you know, I can only speak to my experience, but I've had just a really positive experience as a model. I've, like I said, it's been my key to the world. I've been able to travel the world. I have more frequent flyer miles than most CEOs. And I've been able to see the world and learn so much, learn from so many brilliant people. And so I've used it to my advantage.

I think that there are aspects of the industry that are really challenging. I think a lot of people tell you no. There's a lot of competition. Like you said, there's so many beautiful people. There's a lot of luck. And I feel like for me, in my Cinderella story, I feel like I was in the right place at the right time. And I had this window of opportunity and I ran for it.

And I have an amazing family who was by my side every step of the way. I mean, starting a career at 15 is, I think there's pitfalls to that. Just the nature of being 15 and having a lot of pressure on you. So for me, I had a lot of luck and the right people around me. And I think a lot of young women who want to go into modeling or work in fashion, that's not always the case. How did your family help you in terms of rules and policies? And the reason I ask this is it seemed like they were quite strict when it came to high school, homework, and so on. So I was doing some reading prior to this,

and a day might look like a 7 a.m. flight to New York to do some type of shoot. 5 a.m. flight. 5 a.m. flight, you get international coverage, and then you fly back, and you're doing homework at 7 p.m. and so on. Yes. What were, what were some of the parameters, rules, policies, anything like that, that your,

that your parents had to help keep you on track? Because this, this relates to something that has popped up a few times on this podcast that I think is really important. So could you, could you speak to that? Sure. I, you know, I had this kind of double life. I was 15 years old and very much figuring out who I am, in high school, I mean, you're figuring out a lot of things. And like I said, I was a 5'11", 15-year-old. So that came with its own set of challenges. But I don't know, I guess I had this double life and I would be in school, have a very normal day in class, sitting in the school lunchroom with my friends, with my peers. And then I would get on a flight to Paris or New York a couple of days a week.

I really had this full time job even as a freshman in high school. So I had this double life and it was before social media. So none of my friends or teachers really knew to the extent of what I was doing. So I would go to Paris and walk in a couture runway show or be in, be the face of the Dior campaigns globally or on the cover of magazines. And it was before the kind of global connectivity we have now. So I kind of was able to have a very, very normal real life as at the same time I was building this international career. And I think the discipline that my parents definitely helped me kind of stay really balanced with focusing on academics and focusing on what matters. I mean, we still would have normal family dinners and I would get in trouble if I like didn't, you know, came home past curfew or I don't know, I had like such a normal home life that I think that really was,

that balanced all of these amazing other things out. And I think my parents were always really, they trusted me. I think that's one of the biggest things too. They knew that I was, they trusted me to do the right thing. And that freedom, there's a lot of, I don't know,

responsibility I felt with that and gratitude to my parents because I didn't want to let them down. And so I think I never wanted to, I don't know, to ruin that. Betray that confidence. Betray that, yeah. So one of the reasons I ask is I'm fascinated by people

who have reached a pinnacle of success in any field who can remain grounded in any capacity because it seems that whether it's alcohol, power, money, those are the three that come to mind. When you add those, any of those in quantity, people tend to become more of what they are, right? So if they have a small flaw, it gets magnified. And if they're a small asshole, they become a really big asshole. And there's real risk when pressure's added to the container. So I'm fascinated how people maintain perspective over time so that they don't become some abomination like Frankenstein's version of

themselves. And for instance, a friend of mine I've had on this podcast, Chris Saka, who had the privilege of watching go from angel investor, sort of fledgling VC to now Midas lists. Arguably, I don't even think it's arguable, is his lowercase one fund is, I think, going to be the most successful venture capital fund in the history of venture capital. Wow. So he's really reached a peak.

And when I've dug in with him as to how he's maintained some perspective, because he still ultimately is a very middle-class kid who grew up in upstate New York trying to make ends meet. His parents had him do something called sweet and sour summers. So they would help him to find a job that would give him an opportunity to learn and interact with people who were maybe above his pay grade, above his parents' pay grade.

But then they would also make him take some shitty job hauling around heavy things on a construction site. I had plenty of those shitty jobs. To the extent of the normal life, this kind of double life that I had, my normal life, I really, I can't stress it enough, it was very normal. Like I, um, I mean, I still had my like chores doing the dishes, taking out the trash, like every 15 year old, didn't matter if I was on the cover of international Vogue's, like I was still

coming home and doing my homework and, um, taking out the trash. Like, and also beyond just my parents, my sisters, I have three sisters that I'm really close with and, and some of my best friends, my, my core group of girlfriends from, from growing up that I've known since kindergarten are still some of my best friends. And so I think there's this, I, I feel really grateful that I've been able to, to, um, I don't know, keep my feet on the ground very much so. And also I have a lot of people around me who would bat me over the head and beat me up if I did it. They wouldn't allow it. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The support structure is also, people might be asking themselves like, well, okay, you grew up that way, fantastic.

I didn't grow up that way. So it's not actionable. And what I would say is not true. Why would I explore this? It's because you can actually build in. It's like, all right, what is the version if you are hoping to achieve a certain modicum of success? Like what are the chores that you can engineer into your life so that you maintain some perspective?

There are ways to do it, right? Maybe it's volunteering once a week. And that helps you to not only, hopefully, ultimately maintain some perspective, right? There are ways to do it, right? Maybe it's volunteering once a week. And, uh, yes. And that helps you to not only hopefully ultimately achieve some success, but, uh, to achieve also some contentment and life outside of focusing only on your personal success. Right. And which is actually a segue of sorts to, I'm going to get there. I want, I'm going to talk about coding very, very shortly, but I'm going to get there vis-a-vis books. So I want to ask about books because I had read maybe true, maybe not that you don't actually watch very much television. So I was like, all right, great. Well, let's talk about books then. Are there any particular books that you have

gifted the most to other people or reread often yourself? I love podcasts and I love audio books. Um, I feel like I'm somebody who learns by, by listening. I retain information better. So I, I do like TV, but I just don't have a ton of time for it. I feel like I'm constantly on the go. And so I'm listening to audio books, whether I'm walking through airport security or in a cab to the airport. And I love, um, there's this book, the four agreements that I, I recently gave my sisters who are graduating from college. And I just think, I think it's got a lot of great, um, principles and ideas. Are there any particular podcasts that, that, that are your

go-to? Um, I love, so I love learning about things. I love learning about entrepreneurs. I love learning about, I like, I love listening to conversations. I mean, I guess that's one thing too, that I feel like in my real life, I get to ask people, I'm sitting here with you, Tim. I mean, what a privilege that is uh you're welcome to rescind that comment later no it's true it's true um but but I love listening to conversations I love I love your work um I love Guy how I built this um I I love I love listening to conversations so the the four agreements agreements for people who aren't familiar has come up quite a few times in this podcast

and I also recently found out that Tom Brady had been gifting this book a whole lot as well. It has to catch you at the right time, I think, for it to be applicable. The reason I brought up, you were going to say? No, I was just going to say, you know, I'm

25 and I feel like it's to the But the reason I brought up, you were going to say? No, I was just going to say, you know, I'm 25, and I feel like it's to the point of the timing, because someone gave it to me for my birthday, and I just think that it really does come down to kind of this. I think we're always evolving, always growing, and should be always learning, at least I hope I am. And it really makes you focus inward, always evolving, always growing and should be always learning. At least I hope I am. And there's, it's really makes you focus inward. And I think there's, it doesn't matter how old or young you

are. I think there's, that's something that I really value is, is growing as a human being. And it certainly kind of helps, helps you think about ways to grow and focus as a human being so other ways to grow we're going to get to it in two seconds i brought up books because books involve uh writing sort of expressing thought in some cases on paper in some cases in audio and there's a craft there's a certain elegance to good writing yeah and i have I've been fascinated by coding encoders for a very long time. And the fact that you can have, say, a very, very good coder get more done than the next 10, if he or she is just very, very elegant

and can find non-obvious solutions in what they're trying to execute. And I've spent a very small amount of time with a guy named Chad Fowler, actually, who showed me many years ago, the basics of Ruby. It was just in one afternoon, but he used natural language to help me get a grasp on it because he speaks Hindi. And I'm fascinated by different languages and was an East Asian studies major. So I'm fascinated by writing systems in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, et cetera. And, uh, so I wanted to ask you of all the many, many things of the hundreds and thousands of things that you could do with your time, right? How did you get exposed to coding and, and walk me through your first experience or experiences with that? Well, I love the way that you, you explain it as language and that's really

what it is. And I think that like any language, it's a medium that you can express yourself, that you can express creative ideas. And that is what I, why I think it's so powerful. I got exposed to it because I'm just a super curious, like annoyingly curious person. I ask a lot of questions and I love understanding how things work. I love understanding like how the world around me works and how science and math can be ways to explain that. But I work in a really creative industry. And I don't know, I guess at a certain point a couple of years ago, I wanted to understand what code was. It was a term that I kept hearing. What prompted it? Was it a person, a conversation?

Yeah. I mean, I was meeting a lot of entrepreneurs. I was watching the entire world, especially fashion and media be transformed by technology. And I was like, what is it that a handful of people who are engineers and building huge enterprise value, what is the secret language that they know that the rest of us don't? and code. And I was like, what is code and how can I learn it? So I took a bootcamp. I took one, one week. And even in where, where was it in New York at the Flatiron school, who introduced you to that? Um, this guy, Avi Flavbaum, and he's a great teacher and he started the school and he taught me Ruby similar, exactly as you. So like, it's a very intuitive kind of language. And, and even in a short time, I was able to kind of understand high level, big principles and the fact that

you can use code to, you know, write a line of code that performs a function. And you can build ideas using this language. And that, to me, was just so mind-blowing to understand how the tech that we touch every day, how it works, and to take it one step further, but to actually be able to write it yourself and to express your ideas. And to be able to... I mean, you're so efficient, Tim. It's really inspiring. You're so efficient, Tim.

It's really inspiring. You're so organized and so efficient. I'm organized for maybe two hours a day, so you're seeing my two hours. You are. It's impressive. I just think that even you can build tech to enable that and to scale that. That's what's so powerful,

is the ability to scale ideas or scale problem solving using code and and I think that there's so much opportunity that has yet to really even be built in this kind of intersection of kind of many intersections of of kind of creative industries with from the perspective of someone writing code who has different life experiences or passions maybe than most engineers sitting in Silicon Valley today. And you take this class. Yeah. You learn the basics of Ruby with Avi.

With Avi. All right. And what is Code with Classy? So Code with Classy is- It's a K, folks. It's with a K. K-O-D-hmm. With Avi. With Avi. All right. And what is Code with Klossy? So Code with Klossy is- It's a K, folks. It's with a K. K-O-D-E. Is my organization where we teach girls to learn how to code

and empower the next generation of tech leaders. So we do that by running summer camps across the country, and we teach girls the ABCs. So Ruby, HTML, JavaScript, CSS, enough to be able to build something. So our camps are across the country and they're two weeks long and they're totally free. And we have these amazing girls who come into our camps and learn these skills. And it's amazing what they're able to build. And not only just the way that they're able to build their ideas, but what they're passionate about.

So if it's like making social impact, helping their community, they're able to build something and recognize the impact that they can have. And that's really empowering. And that, for a girl who's kind of at that point in life where you're figuring out what you think you can be or what you think you can't, that's really empowering. I need to learn to code. I feel like you need to come to our camp. It's embarrassing that I've been in Silicon Valley. I mean, I to code. You need to come to our camp. It's

embarrassing that I've been in Silicon Valley or I mean, I'm no longer there. We're in Austin and I live here, but 17 years in Silicon Valley. And I think I was too, I was worried that I wouldn't be good at it. And I had a deep, I had a deep insecurity that when I scratched the surface, I would see the infinite complexity of something that I could at best only be mediocre at. And so I stuck my head in the sand. I disagree. I think that that's the bear, one of the barriers to entry. I think that's why a lot of people don't ever try. I mean, who am I? I'm like, I don't have a, I don't work in Silicon Valley. I don't, I didn't go to college. I, but I, I'm curious and it. And it's something that can be learned.

Like anything else, it is a language. And I think that a lot of people let that get in the way of taking the first step. Yeah, you know, it strikes me too that I think perhaps in my mind I've given myself an out, which is actually really flimsy. And that is that it'll be too hard to learn to code. And in my mind, learning to code is building the next super app to go gain 100 million users. Whereas in reality, I'll give you an example

from my own experience, and I have some questions for you so I don't talk too much. This is what happens with too much caffeine. So I've always been very, very insecure about my voice. Oh, come on. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to do the podcast, is to beat that out of myself or to get more comfortable with my voice.

And if anyone listens to my earlier episodes, say the introductions to my early, early, early episodes, and then later you will see the confidence build over time. I was really unsure of myself in the beginning. And I'm still unsure of myself in some ways, but I've always been fearful of singing, any type of singing. I would never do it.

Look, I'm right there with you. So I've always had on my New Year's resolutions almost every year for the last six years, along those lines, voice lessons. Never did it until a few months ago. Just started. And what I realized very quickly is that I don't have to become a good singer to get incredible value out of these voice lessons.

Because I've learned enough now. I've certainly improved, but I'm not ready for any opera. This might be your debut. We'll see. After the podcast. After the podcast. After the podcast. I won't impose that on anyone right now. It'll be very, very harsh.

But when you learn the basics of any skill, and I already know this, so I don't know why I've been so blind to it with both singing and I think now coding. Even if you never do anything with it per se, suddenly you hear everything. In the case of voice, you per se, suddenly you hear everything. In the case of voice, you listen to every song you hear differently.

And so your enjoyment of that and your appreciation of it is 10x. I would imagine that when you learn the basics of coding, even if you don't use it to push you off into a different career, it gives you an entirely different lens through which you can look at everything that is being built and how things work. And that alone, it's like that alone, to have that gift to look through a different lens for the rest of your life, putting in a week or two seems like a very potentially worthwhile use of time.

Absolutely. Tim, I mean, just on that point, it's like, you know, I think even if you understand high level what how things are built, you can understand what is possible. And I think that that's what's really exciting, even just for, you know, with and and that you met in silicon valley that even even um you know a friend of mine kevin sistrom it founded instagram and he or one of the co-founders of instagram and he he wrote lines of code early on and actually you know i think that was one of the aha moments i knew him as a friend and I was like, wait, Kevin, you actually know how to code. You actually built lines of code to build this tool, this platform that reaches so many people. It put a human element to it. And I think the idea of even learning a little bit of what code is and how it builds things, it makes you realize what could be possible. And I think for people who want to build businesses, you don't have to be the main engineer. I think you, but there is this kind of literacy, um, that I think is important. Yeah. It's the, I mean, it, it certainly seems to

be the new literacy or one of the new forms of literacy that over time as soft rates the world to borrow mark andreason's expression yeah if you don't want to be displaced if you want to be able to compete you need to at least understand the abcs yeah and easy for me to say with my platform and microphone as someone who's being a bit hypocritical since i only did one afternoon of of ruby with child until you come to my accounting camp. Until I come to your camp. The other thing is too, Tim, is that part of the reason why I wanted to take a class beyond just wanting to understand

how the world was being transformed by technology and what specifically that meant, but it's like because I was so intimidated by it, because I work in fashion, because I am not someone who maybe looks like the most people in Silicon Valley or engineers. I don't know. There's something in me, I think, that wanted to do what I think would be the hardest possible thing to do. I don't know.

This was not even about building an organization and helping other people do the same thing. This was just for me, selfishly. I wanted to learn something really hard. And I think that there's probably a part of me that's insecure, speaking of, about the fact that I know that I'm more than just what people see me on the outside.

And I think that using, I think that insecurity probably has driven me to want to keep doing more. And, and it just, I am just a really curious, passionate person. And, and I think this, like I've always been really interested in math and science. And I don't know. I think that that's partially why I tackled this challenge too. Initially it was like, I want to learn what is going to be, what do people really think is hard to learn? I want to learn it. Well, let's, so let's talk about a challenge for a second and, or more than a second.

Yeah. And I don't know the attribution, but there's a quote I really like, which is everything you want is just outside of your comfort zone. And I'm sometimes better at practicing that than at others. But I'd love to talk about discomfort for a second.

Sure. Because I think people have, there are many misconceptions about anyone who has a lot of public exposure like yourself so one might be, ah she's just a pretty face which is not true another might be, oh it's all come very

easily, it's all been very easy, it's just been home runs from day one so what I'd love to ask you is could you tell us about you can choose we could talk about both both like a dark slash hard time, what prompted it and how you came out of it or a failure that looking back helped set the stage or teach you something that led to success later. And the more specific, the better, because

I want to humanize this a little bit for people who might feel like this is that you're I think you know that I mean perfect so far from perfect so far from perfect it's like beyond but for me I I think that there have been many failures along the way but also I am a really I am the toughest person on myself and let let's, yeah, let's talk, let's talk about, let's talk about a specific one. I, I mean, there's so many moments I can just think about in my, in my fashion career, you know, where I didn't quite, I mean, it's, it's funny how you define like a failure or even like dark moments. I think I've started, I have built my career over the past 10 years of my life and I was 15 years old when I started that. And I think there's just natural human growth that happens over those 10

years. That's really important. And no matter what you're doing, you need to take those failures and challenge yourself to make yourself grow from them and be better. or dark periods of growing up, of coming into your own, of growing into your own body, that's even more criticized or more people can see it. And so I think for me, I definitely, so many different periods in my life where being in the profession that I'm in, it's very focused on the outside and your body. And as a teenage girl, like growing into

your body, I mean, there's so many times I've gone into a fitting where the clothes don't fit. And that just has made me feel so shitty about myself. And it's not necessarily my fault. It's not necessarily the clothes fault. It's just, it's, it's shitty. It makes you feel horrible. It's made me feel horrible about myself. shitty. It makes you feel horrible. It's made me feel horrible about myself. And I think there was kind of this point progressively through my career that I was like, I am so much more than just like my measurements or my body. Uh, I, I, I have so many ideas. I've got so much drive. I know that I have so much to give the world and I really want to help other people.

And I know that I'm not necessarily doing that or the extent of my self-worth or value cannot be just on fitting the clothes or not. And I think that there was like a real shift in me and just understanding like, I don't know, understanding how and what to do to keep growing. routines, habits on a daily or weekly basis that help you to continue functioning at a high level or that just help you that you like? Like what are some specifics? My listeners always love the specifics. Are there any particular, I love meditating. Um, you know, I think that how do you, how, when, how long do you practice meditating? So I'm not as probably good or disciplined as many of your listeners out there, but whenever I can.

To the point of... Do you use an app? I use Headspace. I learned TM. But I just do it whenever, wherever I can. So this morning, getting ready, I wake up, stretch, breathe, put in 10 minutes of Headspace, go to the gym, stretch, breathe, put in, you know, 10 minutes of headspace, go to the gym or vice versa, work out and then meditate and then start my day. You know, I really

have learned how important it is to take care of myself mentally as well as physically. Um, because I think, you know, part of being in just part of, part of life is staying mentally healthy and balanced. And I think especially in an industry that there is so much volatility. I mean, to the point of models and turnover, there's a lot of failures daily of jobs you don't get or things that you're I have been told that I'm too tall, too short, too fat, too skinny

too this, too that, everything I mean it's like and that is such a, if that doesn't mess with your head as a teenage girl growing up anyway then I mean come on so again for me you know having an amazing support group around me, having like really my family, my friends, like, and then having outlets

that fill my cup. So for me, investing in my learning sincerely is something I love. I love learning new things. I love learning from people. I love experiencing new things. Um, and I love helping people not for the sake of like any reason other than just, I love sharing, um, opportunities for other people to, to better themselves, their lives too. Well, let's talk about one outlet slash maybe stress release valve, which is the, the exercise, right? So what is, what is your, what is your morning? What is a sample morning exercise routine look like very specifically and how, how long does it take? Like what, what exercises are you doing? Okay. So I grew up playing every sport, doing ballet every day. I

grew up super, super active and I live a really busy life today and I'm on a plane all the time. I mean, you know, it's not easy to fit it in, but for me, I make sure that I fit in like a combination of cardio and a combination of strength training. So I feel best when I'm strong, not skinny. And so tell us about a recent workout. So this morning I woke up, meditated and worked out for 45 minutes, all I had time for. And did you have breakfast before you worked out? After. After, okay. After I worked out.

And a combination of running, biking, and some light weights. And just I kind of do whatever I can whenever I can. So like if I'm in the south of France on a photo shoot, I'll go for a run and a swim. If I'm here in Austin, I'll go for a run across that cool bridge and like go tour around. Whatever's available. Whatever's available. For strength training, if you had to pick only a handful of exercises that you could, uh, that, that seemed to get you the most bang for the buck, what would they, what would they what would they be what comes to mind burpees so much i hate them so much you hate them but it's a love

hate it's a love hate because i just like i hate them so much that i just know they're probably good for me burpees um things that you can do anywhere so like planking you know planking or exercises um like things that I do in my hotel room if I don't have time to go down to the gym. So just simple things like sit-ups, push-ups, dips, all sorts of really boring things like that. Yeah, I mean boring but effective. I wanted to get into specifics because I'm always curious. which is really boring, things like that. Yeah, I mean, boring but effective.

I wanted to get into specifics because I'm always curious when I meet someone who travels as much as you do, it makes it very clear that I haven't been able to work out because I'm traveling, excuse is utter bullshit, and I'm always curious how people make do. So I've talked to Triple H, otherwise known as Paul Levesque, a fascinating guy, and he'll use stationary bike or elliptical for, say, even 10, 15 minutes when he first arrives anywhere after shifting time zones, and it seems to fix jet lag for him.

Danzig, when they were traveling around, touring, one of the very first things they would do is they would choose a hotel based on the gym that was available. Oh, a hundred percent. And it's like Bruce Lee would always travel with his, with his running shoes because he knew no matter what, if other things weren't available, he could run. So, and it just goes on and on and on. I travel with, uh, a number of different bands as well as an inflatable ball. And it's incredible what you can do, uh, particularly if you learn calisthenic exercises like burpees or pistols which are one-legged squats you can get

a brutal workout in your own hotel room or jocko willink is a retired navy seal commander he'll travel with or he won't necessarily travel with but he'll if he wants to do pull-ups and he can't find a place to pull up so grab one of the towels from his room in the hotel, go find the parking structure and throw it over a bar and do pull-ups with the towels. So it's like there's two observations that I make. Number one, there's always a way. But secondly, there's always a way. And the highest functioning, seemingly busiest people I've met

almost all make a point to move on a daily basis in some fashion. It's so important for me in my life. It's, it's crucial. Forget even about how it, you know, how it makes you look, but how it makes you feel and just your, for me, brain, mental, emotional balance, I think, and, and focus and clarity. It's like, you can't, I can't start my day without doing something and and to the point of whatever it is um you know I in my suitcase always have my running shoes always have always have bands always have ankle weights which is really funny when I'm

going through airport security and I've got like two ankle weights that look like bombs and you know they're like lead ankle weights and I get stopped every time and get you know questioned ankle ankle weights and podcast gear it's like oh a bunch of batteries and cables yes yeah we need to talk to you we're high risk mr uh american history x for those of you't know, I'm very, very bald and have sort of a wrestler-y look to me. I do not know. Let's chat about investing.

And by investing, I mean investment of time, energy, maybe in a particular relationship. I'm going to say you can't answer with your family. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to roll them out. But what would you consider one of the best

investments you've ever made? And that could be, for instance, Amelia Boone has been on the podcast, four-time world champion in obstacle course racing. For her at the time, she was and still is a lawyer, but it was the first 450 entry fee for the the first i think it was world's toughest mother which she ended up winning which opened up this entirely new career right doesn't have to be something like that but uh you know in my case could potentially be the idea to put in the time do a six episode test for the podcast yeah like holy shit and that was supposed to be a side gig because I was too burned out writing books. Now it turned into a whole thing.

What comes to mind for you when you think about some of the best investments of time, energy, money, or decisions? So a number of things. One, the first pair of high heels that I ever owned were $20 high heels from Target that I learned how to quote unquote walk. And those came in very handy when I started my fashion career. And I, with my first paycheck ever bought a red KitchenAid

mixer that still sits on my counter to this day. And thousands of cookies have been made from that little mixer. And I got the idea of, of starting a vegan cookie charity, uh, project from my passion for baking. And, and that, that led on to, um, to, to a whole fun project and take, take a few sentences just to explain what that is. So that's really just what it sounds like. It's a charity project focused on donating school lunches to kids through selling cookies, which I love to, I love to eat cookies. I love to make cookies. And I wanted to kind of have a bake sale of sorts. Do you have any partners? We partnered with Momofuku Milk Bar. Yeah. For those who don't know that, look it up. Look it up. Must, must visit when you're in New York.

And we made cookies, and we donated over a million school lunches from the sales of these cookies. And that was just this kind of first project where it was really my idea and something that I built and used my, my voice to build a, take an idea and actually bake a cookie and bake a, an impact into that product. So we got the, we got the heels, which if you can't walk in those, you're going to have issues as a, as a female in fashion,

the KitchenAid mixer. So KitchenAid, if you're listening, I think I'm sure Carly has very reasonable endorsement rates, so you can reach out. And investing in time. Honestly, two things. One, I applied back to NYU because I love learning and I wanted to be back in an environment where I could keep growing and learning. And that was at 20 years old. That was after five years already of working full time. And so I invested back in being a student. And that also led me to taking a coding class. And that led me to starting Code with Klossy. What did you go in to learn?

I wanted to learn anything everything i have so many things that i so it's a question i want to because i know you're really a curious person i am but i feel like but i want to i want to dig into the motivation for one second so i have some friends very very smart very accomplished who either didn't ever go to college or dropped out of college and some of of them, for some of them going back and getting the diploma was just a, and this is not a bad motivation at all, but they had carried some type of defensiveness and insecurity about having not gone to college and finished. Was that any piece of it? A hundred percent. I was planning on becoming a physician, a doctor,

emergency room doctor, something like my dad. And so I, or go to business school or go to some, I always planned on having a very, at least getting a college degree. of wanting to kind of keep learning more, keep doing more, not for the sake of getting the degree, but for the sake of being in an environment where I can keep expanding my horizons. And I think the thing is, I have that through my job as well.

There's so many ways that I'm able to learn just by traveling and meeting people. And I feel like everybody has that. It's not just, I mean, I am a unique situation. I get to travel to crazy places, but I think just it's kind of a mindset, a mentality, a perspective of just keeping your eyes and ears open. Do you have any favorite classes or professors besides the coding? Anything come to mind? I took a feminism class at NYU, which was really fascinating

for understanding the history, the history of feminism, academic perspectives, the different waves of feminism, a lot of academic reading around the topic beyond just kind of rah-rah girl power. All right. So you mentioned a number of things.

You mentioned, are there any purchases, say, in recent memory? This is one of my rapid fire questions. So I know it's a bit of an awkward transition from feminism. So I apologize to people for that. But are there any particular purchases that have had a very positive impact on your life? Ideally of the say less than a hundred or less than a thousand dollar variety. I love journaling on airplanes. I sit for, especially that flight back to St. Louis is only two hours. So it's like two hours of uninterrupted time.

And every airplane that I'm sitting on, I goals that I've been able to tick off and accomplish. And I think that an investment of a journal, a great moleskin, certainly has been worthwhile and really just something that I think is a great exercise and I really love like actually like I said taking care of myself my mind and body and um so like I always have all these in my suitcase I've got all these crazy supplements like moon moon juice dusts they have like brain dust and beauty dust and it's like crazy potions of like ashwagandha and things that I like. I'm a total sucker and believer that like, that, um, that, so I travel with all these potions in my suitcase along with my bands and ankle weights. When you use the notebooks, uh, do you, what does a page look like and how do you follow up? So what I'm curious to know

is how you, how things make it from the page into reality, right? Do you go back and figure out what next steps are? Do you write down next steps in a particular way? Uh, and people have so many different ways of approaching this. I mean, in my case, in my journal, I wish I had it right here, but I always make a little box in the bottom right-hand corner, and that's for next steps,

based on anything on that page. And so every bottom right-hand corner has next steps. And then I'll go through and I'll be like, eh, all right, that was a stupid idea. Or like, eh, it's not for now. And I'll just highlight, I'll do a second pass and then highlight the kind of dominoes that I think will topple as many other dominoes as possible.

But how, when you brained up or when you put these things on, on paper, walk us through what that looks like. Yeah. I, there's also this app that's called wander list. That's great.

And for, for actually having a more digital version of those lists. And then also things like Slack are great too. Um, the, the notebook is more just like my real personal kind of deepest, darkest, uh, thoughts and, and, and ideas and goals and like nobody's judging, nobody's reading them um but but i think the the the organization you know i mean i love this is the way your brain works i think my brain is not the most organized i have uh i have a lot of ideas and i think it's actually taken a lot of discipline to to kind of keep everything moving forward.

And I definitely think it's like going through those lists and following up with the people that I need to continue the conversation with. Or I've got an amazing team. I've got a great partner who is helping me build Kodos Klossy, building all my businesses her name's penny thou she's amazing and uh i i feel like it's a really collaborative process taking those lists and actually make turning them into action is is more that working with my team um to to bring them to life one thing I've noticed,

and tell me if this is off base or not, but in doing a lot of homework on you, putting together the dossier. I know, first of all, I need to send cookies to your friend, the crazy... Oh, the crazy Bulgarian. Bulgarian.

Oh my God, crazy Bulgarian. I know you're listening. You're in luck. Thank you, crazy Bulgarian. You need some cookies. Don't forget me. I could use some cookies too. I'll say it's for my cheat day, but I might actually break that rule.

Yeah, I have to be careful around cookies. One of those, very little portion control when it comes to cookies. I hear you. It turns out, but... I'll send you healthy ones. Also send me the unhealthy ones. You can address them to somebody else and then I'll just eat them anyway. Uh, the, the pattern that seemed to pop up was, and I think this actually makes you a lot smarter than I am in some really deep ways is when I go through my notebook and I write down what

needs to be done next, like what do I need to do next? And it seems like as I've looked through a lot of your history, you are much better at doing one thing that's really important that I need to improve upon. And that is not asking what do I need to do next necessarily, but who do I need to talk to next? And whether it's Kevin Systrom or say Casey Neistat, who's also been on the podcast, really do vlogging. I've had a lot of trouble. It doesn't even occur to me to ask for help, not because I think I have all the answers, but I don't want to burden people with that or there's some weird baggage that I carry, which is why Amanda Palmer at one point, the musician really is, and her book has really helped me to learn how to ask for, for help. But

is that accurate? Am I all? A hundred percent. Oh my gosh. I mean, again, I'm somebody who didn't get a college degree, a business school degree, and I'm trying to build businesses and a nonprofit and scale that impact and grow my team and be a boss. I mean, there's so many things that I'm learning as I go. And I think that what I really value is the people that I can lean on as mentors or advisors in figuring it out. And I think that that's a really important thing

that I also kind of had this awakening where I was like, I am in the room with extraordinary people and I'm being afforded that opportunity because of my my job my day job being a model working on big advertising jobs working in an industry with a lot of creatives like how can I actually best use that to accomplish what what I what I really dream of what my biggest goals and ambitions are. And I think a lot of people sometimes are afraid to ask for help.

And I definitely have, I ask questions. You ask for help. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what my problem is with that. I mean, I've gotten better, but it's one of these self-defeating habits of isolating myself that is kind of a it's like it's a default that i need to continually work on i get better for periods and then i'm like

ah no i need to figure this out i should be able to figure this out like sit down with my notebook not always the ideal tool of choice so i need to revisit am need your help. I'll reread your book. If you look at the last handful of years, are there any particular habits, beliefs, tools that have had a tremendously positive impact on your life besides things we mentioned already? So it can't be, say, meditation or Headspace or one of those. You know, I think just learning by doing. I, for a long time, you know, over the past years,

I find it so interesting to just see how much the whole world has changed in so many ways. You know, you mentioned Casey Neistat. I had a conversation with him a number of years ago where I... If you want to talk about busy. Yeah, talk about busy. Talk about wake up at... Look up Casey Neistat. He's amazing. And he really helped me realize that I could not just be a canvas for creators, but I could be a creator myself. And, and I think there was kind of this overall shift

in certainly in fashion, in social media, enabling a platform and a, and a voice for everyone. Um, doesn't matter if you are the model, your voice is, is, can be heard in the same way the brand or designers can. And that extends for everyone. And that's beyond just fashion. But there was this kind of shift in my own perspective of realizing that my ideas had value and that I could be a creator and share what I was experiencing and learning and doing

beyond just what was translated by somebody else. Or I could be heard. I could be, what am I saying? I didn't have to just be seen, but I could also be heard. And I think that there was something really empowering in that. And that's been kind of a collective shift over the years. And I think this kind of democratization of of ideas and of voices and and the this kind of instead of just a handful of of people in power at the top like everybody

has the opportunity to to build something to their ideas and and that's to the point of like code being this ability to actually actualize that to to realize that to to have ideas that whether it's a problem you're facing or a an idea for an account for a company or an idea for making impact i mean being able to actually build that even if you're a 15 year old girl. Um, I just, I think that there's something so exciting about like there being no rules. And I feel like a lot of the roles that, uh, maybe existed in the world or, or in the industry, uh, that, that I work in 10 years ago are no longer the case. And I think it's exciting to see what is ahead of us. That's exciting.

Yeah, I mean, there's certainly still top-down power and there are certain things that require political relationships and so on, but more and more so the ability to develop bottoms-up power is available to anyone who is willing to learn and compete. Yes. That's the good news.

The bad news, potentially, is you better fucking compete because guess what? When there are, say, three to four billion additional people coming online in the next handful of years, you have to compete against everybody. I think that's a very good thing.

But it also means you can learn from everybody. And that information is available. So just a few more questions. Billboard. You've probably heard this question before because I like to ask it. But if you could put a few words, a word, a quote, anything on a billboard,

it can't be an advertisement, to get a message out to millions or billions of people, metaphorically speaking. What might you put on that billboard? I feel like that's so that there are so many things that I probably should be putting on that billboard. Um, but one thing that my dad always used to really hammer home to me and my sisters is like, we would come home from school and, and if one of us got a bad grade or something, he would say like, did you give it your best? Like only you actually really know, like, did you give it your best?

Did you study the best you could? Did you go in there like as focused as possible? Did you give it your best? And, and, and I, and I think that there's something really like important to always just keep in mind is like, give it your absolute best and also be present. I think that's the other thing too. Um, those are two things that I, that I always kind of think about to myself, like, am I doing my absolute best? Yes, then cut myself a break. I can't compare myself to anyone else because my best, only I know what that actually is.

And I think being present is a really important exercise always. Did you give it your best? That's a really important question. Yeah. I feel like you are giving it your best, at least from the outside looking in. Definitely trying the best I can. I mean, I certainly don't have all the answers. I think that's one thing too, is I'm 25 years old and like all of my, I'm far from perfect and,

but I've sincerely just given it my best every step of the way and taken opportunities that I've been able to have and, and make the most of them, learn from them, keep growing, never kind of been satisfying or staying complacent. And then also thinking about how I can help others along the way. So you have a very exciting year ahead of you, as I'm sure will be many, many years of excitement ahead of you. I'm always super eager to support anything related to enabling through education. I mean, that's been a real focus of mine with a number of different organizations over the last 10 years or so. What closing comments might you have and ask of the audience, a suggestion of the audience, certainly if they can learn more about how to code or share that with girls or people who may want to attend one of your camps. What would you like to share, ask of, or recommend to the audience? Well, you have an incredible audience and anyone out there listening,

I ask just if you know any young women between the ages of 13 and 18 who you think would benefit from learning to code or would be interested, send them to codewithklossie.com to apply for our free camps. We're going to have a thousand spots. This is a really, really big

summer of growth for us. How long are the camps? The camps are two weeks long, nine to five, Monday through Friday, and they are action-packed. There's so much that the girls do over the course of these two weeks. And we are growing to 50 camps in 25 cities across the country. So it's a big summer for us and we want to get as many amazing young women in these classes and in these camps. So send them to codewithklossy.com to apply. Codewithklossy.com, K-O-D-E with, hopefully you guys can spell that, K-L-O-S-S-Y.com. What was the age range again? 13 to 18. 13 to 18.

So think about this for a second, folks. You may say, I don't know any 13 to 18-year-old girls. All right. Do you have any daughters? Do your friends have any daughters? Are you a teacher with female students who might benefit from this? Consider it. This is, in many, many respects,

the new literacy. And I'm going to get off my lazy ass and stop procrastinating and actually give it a shot. Yeah. Talk about where's Waldo. That'd be easy to pick out. Who's the bald, shiny gnome among the 12 to 18 year old girls? Oh, why is Tim Ferriss here? The only boy we'll let in. So codewithclossie.com. People can find you everywhere, of course. Carly Kloss, at Carly Kloss, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. Is there any one of those three that you would prioritize? For applying or for...

No, just for people who want to... I love Instagram. That's my first to go to. That sounds like a native environment for you. So Instagram at Carly Kloss. Code with Klossy is at Code with Klossy on all the socials and codewithklossy.com. Thank you so much for taking the time

today. Thank you, Tim. This was really fun. And for people listening, as always, we'll have links to everything we've discussed, including the websites, social, books, etc. in the show notes, tim.blog.com. And until next time, thank you for listening. to get a short email from me. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email

where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off

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self-employed professionals. That's many of you and used by more than 10 million people. You can send invoices, track your time and get paid very, very quickly, which suits the needs of a lot of freelancers, a lot of entrepreneurs and beyond. You can take pictures of receipts. You can link your credit card and debit card. So all the things you buy automatically appear in your fresh books in the right category. So on and so forth makes taxes easy, makes invoices easy, makes your life easier. And also, in fact, I would recommend a PDF. They didn't ask me to read this part, by the way. They put together a PDF a while back called Breaking the Time Barrier, subtitle, How to Unlock Your True Earning Potential. So you can search for Breaking the Time Barrier. A lot of people ask me, how can I get a four-hour work

week with a service business? And the story in that ebook, it's PDF, is the short answer. It's really, really good. So I think you should also check that out. So Breaking the Time Barrier, check it out. But also, why not test out FreshBooks? Claim your 30-day unrestricted free trial at freshbooks.com forward slash Tim and enter Tim Ferriss, two R's and two S's in the How Did You Hear About Us section. That sounds like we're going to get very little tracking. That's a lot of work. But just go to freshbooks.com forward slash Tim and try it out because it is a very good product. And I think you will find it simplifies your life. Enjoy. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. Whether you need a logo, custom website, app, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make

great design accessible to everyone, that's you, and to make the process as easy as possible. I've used 99designs for years now. I've used them for book covers, some mock-ups for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller, illustrations of all different types for the multi-volume The Tao of Seneca, which you can check out, and other graphic design projects for a long time now. And I've been very impressed by the quality of their designers and illustrators. And you don't have to take my word for it. You should check out some of my projects at 99designs.com forward slash Tim. I really encourage you to take a look because you will be impressed. 99designs.com forward slash

Tim. 99designs has freelance experts in more than 90 design categories, and their platform lets you work directly with one designer that you choose if you like their stuff, which is what I did for the Tao of Seneca. Or you can get concepts from multiple designers and then pick your favorite. So whether you're starting a business or just looking for extra design help, resources, etc. 99designs has a solution. Right now, you guys, my listeners, can receive a free $99 upgrade on your first design. To check out your first free upgrade, please visit 99designs.com forward slash Tim and click the link on the landing page. You can also find there samples of projects from you guys, listeners, who have used 99designs for logos, apps, even product packaging. So check it

out, 99designs.com forward slash Tim.