The Tim Ferriss Show - #312: Joseph Gordon-Levitt — Actor, Filmmaker, and Entrepreneur

Starting point is 00:00:00 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question? Now would have seen an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take

Starting point is 00:00:33 one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out. Go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkag1, the number one, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Last time, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by

Starting point is 00:01:22 Five Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email Check it out. includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self-experiments, hacks, tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers, have asked me for something short and action-packed for a very long time, because after all, the podcast, the books, they can be quite long. And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week. It's free. It's always going to be free. And you can learn more at Tim.blog forward slash Friday. That's Tim.blog forward slash Friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast, some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with. And little known fact, I've met probably 25% of them because they first

Starting point is 00:02:23 subscribed to Five Bullet Friday. So you'll be in good company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So check it out, tim.blog forward slash Friday. If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot and you can, of course, easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Hello, my pretty little magui. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out the habits,

Starting point is 00:03:17 routines, life lessons, favorite books, and so on that you can use. In this episode, we have a true polymath, Joseph Gordon-Levitt on Twitter and Instagram at HitRecordJoe, like HitRecord on a video camera, HitRecordJoe. And his site is HitRecord.org. Joe is an actor whose career spans three decades and ranges from television, i.e. Third Rock from the Sun, or I should say EG, to arthouse, Mysterious Skin, Brick, to multiplex, like Inception, 500 Days of Summer, Snowden. He made his feature screenwriting and directorial debut with Don John, which had an Independent Spirit Award nomination for Best First Screenplay.

Starting point is 00:03:53 He also founded and directs HitRecord, an online community of artists, around 600,000 now, emphasizing collaboration over self-promotion. HitRecord has evolved into a community-sourced production company that publishes books, puts out records, produces videos for brands from LG to the ACLU, and has won an Emmy for its variety show HitRecord on TV. So without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Joe, welcome to the show. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Of course. It's been a while since we last caught up, and I have so many questions, and now I get to ask them in a public forum. So thank you for taking the time.

Starting point is 00:04:36 Oh, yeah. Well, I'm really excited to be on your show. I'm a listener, long-time listener, first-time caller. And I'm flattered to be in the company of the people that you talk to on this show, man. It's really cool. Thank you. Of course. It's completely my pleasure. And I thought we might start, and of course, where I start is not going to be where we go, since the format of my shows is generally closest to the movie Memento, as I mentioned before we got started. But I reached out to, as I often like to do with guests, a mutual friend to ask a question that I very frequently ask, which is, and I'll tell you the text that I sent, and you'll be able to guess who this is. Okay, I'm curious.

Starting point is 00:05:22 Partially because I'm going to say the name. Evan! Exclamation point. Oh, yeah. Been ages, man. Hope you're great. You know, I'm finally interviewing Joe, and we've had a few chats and one dinner in the last year. Might you be able to suggest any particular topics, questions, or stories that could be fun or interesting to explore? Does his answer involve balls? It doesn't, but now we have to talk about balls.

Starting point is 00:05:42 So, balls goes on the list for sure. How could it not? And he gave me a number of different thoughts and recommendations. And then he added like 20 minutes later, and he can breathe fire if you tickle his feet. Have fun. So I wanted to fact check that first because knowing Evan, I'm suspect. So true or false, can you breathe fire if I tickle your feet?

Starting point is 00:06:08 That depends on your state of mind. That's Evan Goldberg, by the way, for those wondering who Evan is. Could you explain for people who are like, who the hell is Evan? Who is Evan and how did you first meet? Yeah, Evan Goldberg is known for being writing partners with Seth Rogen. And Seth and Evan are like the comedy pair. And they started by writing Superbad together and they wrote it about themselves. In fact, the character names of Superbad, if you go back and watch it again, are Seth and Evan.

Starting point is 00:06:41 And I think Michael Cera is playing Evan, right. And, and Jonah Hill is playing Seth, if I'm not mistaken. Um, which is wildly inaccurate to who they are. Um, but, uh, but funny anyway. And, um, yeah, they're, they're just two really hilarious guys we did two movies together the first one was 50 50 and then uh the second one was called the night before and um they're really really smart dudes um which is funny because they make um they make humor that um probably doesn't get regarded as smart but as as with many things in movies, I find oftentimes the stuff that is considered lowbrow or sort of mainstream or pop is often the most intelligently constructed, which applies to them sometimes and not other times yeah they're very very very smart guys uh and just to paint a picture for folks uh evan always wears shorts uh he does all his meetings standing up just about which can cause some anxiety if you don't know why he's

Starting point is 00:08:02 standing and don't realize that's what he always does. Or he'll be in like a deep squat, like an Olympic weightlifter, which is a whole separate story. He always says sitting is the new smoking. Right, right. And pro tip for anyone who might bump into these folks, if you sit down with them and they're brainstorming, I would advise you not to smoke with them unless you consider yourself a really good smoker. Really, really strong smoker. I've had that experience on both sides. I've been working with them in phases of my life where I was smoking a lot and phases of my life where I was not smoking a lot. And the first time I met them, well, it wasn't the first time we met, but the first time we really hung out, they were asking me to do their movie, 50-50. And I flew up to Vancouver where they were.

Starting point is 00:08:59 Time was short for reasons that don't really matter for the story. And they had to cast this role really quickly, as happens all the time in show business. And so I read the script and that night flew up to Vancouver to sit down with Seth and Evan and John Levine, who was directing the movie. And we had a good talk about the movie and talked about the things that one normally talks about. And then we sort of got to a point where that part of the meeting, you know, came to a natural conclusion. At which point Seth pulled out a joint and we went up to the roof and smoked and then had kind of what felt like the real meeting, even though it was not. It's like meeting with Chinese bureaucrats, except they're not Chinese and you're using a different substance.

Starting point is 00:09:50 Is that how it goes? They'll bring out something called baijiu, which is this horrifically strong and unpleasant alcohol. And that's when the real meeting starts. Oh, wow. Yeah, see, to me, smoking weed and strong alcohol could not be two experiences that are more different from each other. That's not everyone's experience. I mean, look, everyone has their own, I think, reaction to different substances.

Starting point is 00:10:21 And I'm not one of those weed smokers that encourages people to smoke weed because I do think it's different for everyone. But for me, um, at least at certain times in my life, uh, it's, it's not brain killing. It's quite the opposite. My brain would kind of leap places that it, it might not otherwise. And those guys, well, I should, I should mention a few things for folks. So number one, if you're going to BC, like you're going into the dragon's den of high potency plant matter. So you really need to have your wits about you.

Starting point is 00:10:56 Second, for those people, we won't spend too much time on this, but we're interested in what master sommeliers of pot, i.e. Evan and Seth would recommend like the the pot that they use for creative work the pot that they use for functions a b c d and e we do talk about it in the podcast that i did with the two of those guys so yeah you can check it out the reason i

Starting point is 00:11:19 brought him up aside from the the bullets and then the balls that i've put on to my list now that we will that's just because you know they they get paid lots of money to make jokes about balls. Ah, yes. But he, he, he, he, uh, he surmounted my expectation. He exceeded my expectations by, um, making the fire breathing joke. That was much more tasteful than a joke about my balls. The first thing he said wasn't a joke at all. And you alluded to it just a moment ago that I wanted to ask you that first thing he said. And so I've,

Starting point is 00:11:48 I've known Evan for a while. We've had plenty of exchanges. So the very first thing he says is he's awesome. He saved our movie 50 50. And I'm going to, I'm going to edit what he said slightly afterwards, but he said such and such person was cast and he had to drop out and Joe replaced him in 24 hours,

Starting point is 00:12:04 which is all the time we had before they shut us down. And I forever love him for it. So why did you choose to do that movie? Um, yeah, I mean, I should say I'm, I, the person who had to drop out, it was, um um you know it's a family emergency so there was no bad blood between anybody um but uh yeah why do i choose i mean it's it's a it's a larger question that i think applies here the same as really any movie um why choose any given movie i, the first thing to say is I'm incredibly lucky to get to choose what role I do or don't take. And it wasn't always that way for many, many years. I started acting when I was six and, uh, for like a long, long time, uh, up until actually pretty much just a few years ago. Uh, well, it's more than a few now, isn't it? I'm getting old, but, uh, I would just audition and

Starting point is 00:13:11 take the part that if I got a part, then that was great news. And I would do the part that I got, I would win on lots of auditions. And, and so I, I come from the, the mentality of it's amazing to get a role. However, in recent years when I've been fortunate enough to be able to kind of pick what I do and don't do, it's sort of the only power you have as an actor in a way is the power to say no. Because once you say yes, movies really aren't the actor's medium. And that's really cool and can also be frustrating depending on the context. Um, if you're working with a director and other filmmakers who you're on the same page with, it can be incredible to have them there, you know, sort of bringing forth and and kind of refining and presenting the work that you do. But if you're not on the same page with somebody, it can be really frustrating because you can try all you want to make the performance what you think it should be but you know uh ultimately it's going to be up to the director because what i think often gets uh

Starting point is 00:14:36 overlooked or under emphasized is just how big a role all the other factors are when you you think you're watching an actor give a performance and you are watching that actor, but you're also watching the work of the editor and, you know, the camera crew, you're listening to the work of the musicians and all, you know, productions, all these other factors that all contribute to the feeling that you get when you watch a performance. And, um, performance and um and so what makes me say yes is when i feel good and on the same page with mostly the director um because it's should be the director's job to kind of be steering the whole entire ship with all of those elements in the same direction. Um, it's not always just the director sometimes, like in the case of 50 50 with Seth and Evan, there's John Levine, who is very much the director, but also Seth and Evan who are producing are, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:34 big parts of the collaborative process. And they're, they're very collaborative in general. And that was one of the things I liked about, um, their situation that they create is they really let the actors in and it's a very collaborative thing and you can feel like you trust them. They're not going to tell you they want one thing and be doing something else or try to trick you into anything. There's a phrase sometimes that gets said, people will say to a director, oh, you me to get this performance out of you. And, um, so I'm going to use my manipulation or whatever it takes to like force you into feeling what I need you to feel right now, which to me feels, um, adversarial. And in my experience doesn't usually work as well as sort of, let's all be on the same team and i'm gonna you know where the director is

Starting point is 00:16:45 supporting the actor to uh help the actor do what they need to do um and then presenting all and making sure all the other elements are on the same page so that it all comes together in a in a cohesive way and the audience can feel it you You mentioned directing. And as someone who's never been involved with film, although I've been involved with some unscripted television, which is a totally different animal. Less different than you might think. I suppose that's true. A lot of unscripted television is exactly scripted, let's be clear. And just for people at home who might watch some reality TV, if you ever see a lot of people standing in a kitchen and there's someone mixing a random thing in a bowl, they're not actually mixing anything. And why are they all standing in the kitchen? Because there's natural light. No one in real life does that. So that was planned. But the, the, the, yeah, I think the difference between unscripted and scripted is if you call the

Starting point is 00:17:50 writers, producers, you don't have to pay them as much. So I read somewhere that you've talked about the ability to balance a thorough plan with spontaneity being the crux or at the crux of being a good director and i don't want to misquote you uh but that's i think that's true so i'd love to hear since you have worn many hats you are not just an actor you've done many other things uh Could you tell us maybe a story or give an example of directors you've worked well with and things they've done to help you or to help the entire movie

Starting point is 00:18:36 move well? If there are any particular stories and just what comes to mind for me as someone who really doesn't know much about this at all, I remember someone telling me at one point that instead of saying action, Clint Eastwood would say now in Austin, Texas, as I do, I've gotten to know, and he'll play music in between takes. He'll actually hire artists to help people learn how to paint while they're on set as a way of. I did some painting on Rodriguez's set. Yeah. Oh, cool. That's right.

Starting point is 00:19:18 Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so I'd be curious to know what directors you've worked with have, have done from, from that perspective to, to help things that you've, you've found memorable. And then also what you've done when, when directing other people and, and how you, how you forged your own style as director.

Starting point is 00:19:43 Sure. Let's see. Well, the first feature film I was ever in was a movie called A River Runs Through It, which was directed by Robert Redford, who's a great actor turned director. And I was 10. And I remember, this is one of my favorite stories uh it um we were doing a scene where i had to walk up to my dad at his desk and sort of show him something i had written and uh and we did a few takes and i wasn't hitting my mark a mark is a little piece of

Starting point is 00:20:27 tape that they put down on the floor um so that when you walk into a room you hit that mark and that mark is important for you to hit because they've set up the camera they've set up all the lights to all look good for the actor to stand in that exact position. And if the actor is standing in a different position, well, it'll look different. Um, and by the way, the cinematographer for a river runs through it, uh, won an Oscar for this movie. Um, and, uh, and he, the, the DP director of photography, which is the same as cinematographer, uh, uh, he walked up to me after the second time or whatever that I missed my mark and, and very nicely, uh, asked me to, you know, make sure that I stood on the mark, stood where that green piece of tape was on the floor. And I was, uh, nervous. I was 10 and I'd, I'd been on plenty of sets before i'd been working i think i said

Starting point is 00:21:29 since i was six but um but it no matter who you are how long you've been doing it it doesn't feel good to mess up twice and like have to you know get a note like that um and you're not the only person on the set right i would imagine this is is, you have more than, I mean, how many staring at that green piece of tape on the floor and knew that when we did the next tape, I was definitely going to walk in and stand right exactly on that green piece of tape. And that's what I was focused on. And right before they rolled camera, Redford came up to me and just quietly said in my ear, I never hit my marks. And that's all he said. And he walked away. And that was so important because on the one hand, yes, it's, you know, here's this Oscar winning cinematographer who set up the shot. And, you know, if the actor's not on the mark, the shot won't look the way that he wants it to look. But I think, uh, I think Mr. Redford had, uh, you know, a lot of wisdom there to know that no matter how good the shot looks, if your actor is focused on a green piece of tape on the floor, it's not going to really be worth watching.

Starting point is 00:23:09 Oh, that's a great story. That is a great story. And I suppose that's, that's also part of the gift that someone like Redford brings to the table is that he has so much experience in the shoes of actor. Yeah and he was the first actor director that i had ever worked for and i really loved that and that's a perfect example of why because of just what you're getting at that he could say with authority i never hit my marks which i'm sure he's exaggerating i'm sure he does hit his marks but he just he needed to you know correct my head there for a sec any other any other directors come to mind who, uh, have, have lent memorable experiences to your, uh, to your memory banks? I mean, yeah, sure. There's tons. I'm trying to think of, uh,

Starting point is 00:23:59 of a really good example. I mean, you know, this might sound like I'm name dropping, but watching Steven Spielberg set up a shot is pretty special. Um, I remember asking him about shot listing, uh, shot listing is, um, sort of a standard thing that a director does. It's just, you write down kind of all the different shots that you want to get for a scene, because in any given scene, you might have, you know, you might want to capture for a scene because in any given scene you might have, you know, you might want to capture it from three angles, four angles, five angles, depending on how you like to do it. Um, so I asked him and this is actually, uh, in 2011 when I was shooting for him in a movie called Lincoln, which was just the year before I got to direct a movie. So I was really thinking about it. I've always, ever since I was young, kind of followed directors and tried to soak up what I

Starting point is 00:24:54 can. But, uh, at that time I was really, really thinking about directing soon. And I asked him if he shot listed and he showed me in his script a couple of like tiny little lines that were just no one would have i mean a shot list when i shot my movie a shot list is like was a long document with lots of description about all the different shots that we did for every scene he had like a couple of pencil marks in in his script because he just i figured that uh he would be a meticulous shot lister as well because his shots are so well composed um and he he doesn't really or at least he didn't on lincoln and why is that yeah why is that why the difference i think because he's just got such facility that he would prefer and this gets back to the original point of spontaneity versus planning he would prefer to watch what the actors do and figure out how he wanted to shoot it based on that rather than have the actors have to fit into a pre-planned sort of shot list and that's

Starting point is 00:26:15 what he would do and when we would we would show up to rehearsal he wouldn't be thinking about camera yet um some directors do he wouldn't um do you think he had just of curiosity if you had to speculate do you think he had shot lists earlier in his career in the sense that was he was he someone who learned the rules and followed the rules for a period of time until he was so expert at following the rules that he realized he could abandon some of them? Or do you think he's operated that way from the beginning? And I raise it in part because I recently watched a documentary, and I think it's simply titled Spielberg, about his life. And it's a fantastic HBO documentary. I enjoyed it, at least. It painted a very human picture of him, including his frailties and weaknesses and failures and how he's contended with them.

Starting point is 00:27:10 But do you think that he's always operated that way or that he later only, having become this virtuoso with confidence, then abandoned the shot list? I would guess the former. I can't confirm that and i never quite asked him that but i would guess that when he was shooting jaws or when he was shooting raiders the lost ark that he had some shot lists that would be my guess although he was famous for a while for going wildly over budget so yeah so who knows but you know the story about the shark fin. That's sort of a – that's an old known story. Why don't you tell the story? Because it's so good.

Starting point is 00:27:51 Yeah, okay. For those of you out there who, like my wife, don't know the lore of movies, if you've ever seen Jaws, which is one of the most powerful movies ever, it's about a shark. And you never see the shark you, but you see it's fin sticking out of the water. And, um, the story goes, I never asked him about this because I'm sure he's sick of talking about it, but the story goes that they had planned to, um, see the shark a lot in the movie and they had built this big animatronic shark and they had

Starting point is 00:28:25 you know nicknamed the shark i didn't know that detail that's funny yeah um and it didn't work they got on set and like you know like anything technical it fucked up um right when you needed it to work and uh and so his solution was okay well we can't see the shark let's just can we can we make it work so that we can see its fin sticking out of the water and um if you see the movie it's so effective the shark is so much scarier because you never see it. You just see this fin and it's so ominous. And they didn't know that that was going to happen. That speaks to the point you brought up again, spontaneity versus pre-planning. That's, that's exactly being a film director. You're, you're on a set. Days of production are so expensive, you know, and, and directing a movie is like a two

Starting point is 00:29:27 year process wherein you're actually shooting for like two months of it, but you're spending, I don't know what the actual number is, but some huge percentage of your budget is going into this very small sliver of time. And so you're always on the clock and you've planned everything, but then something else will happen. Either something will fuck up or some new great idea will emerge all of a sudden. And it's up to you to decide at that moment on the clock, should I stick to the plan or should I go with this new thing that just came up and uh the ones who can kind of make that decision well in my experience are the best directors so i've i have a number of follow-up questions but i'll also just mention something that i

Starting point is 00:30:23 stuck in my mind from a director, even though I've never been directed per se, as you have, I mentioned Robert Rodriguez and he was in, it's been in the last two of my books. In fact, both tools of Titans and tribe of mentors and was on this podcast. That's when I first met him in person.

Starting point is 00:30:41 It was to have him on this podcast. And he said to me at one point, something along the lines of the following. And you've met Robert, so you can imagine him saying this with this gigantic smile on his face. Because he always seems to have a big, gigantic smile on his face. He has a lot of fun. And he's a big dude, so it's an especially big smile. He's like the Tony Robbins of filmmaking. He's always optimistic. I shouldn't say always, but in my experience with him, he's a the tony robbins uh of filmmaking uh it's always optimistic i shouldn't say always

Starting point is 00:31:06 but in my experience with him he's very upbeat dude and uh he said you know i have these young filmmakers come to me all the time and they say yeah you know i ran this project i was working on this thing but the lighting didn't work and then the you know the grip fucked this thing up and then this and this and this and he said the point i always make is like, that's your job is that nothing is going to work. Yeah, that's well put. Like they don't understand that the job description of filmmakers like nothing is going to work. It's true. Yeah. If everything worked, the director would just be able to show up and say action and cut. Kind of like, right. Because you should like if everything was done properly

Starting point is 00:31:45 then the actors will have rehearsed and kind of know what they're going to do and every you know everything should be shot listed and prepared and i mean of course everyone has their own methods but um the truth is that a director does do a lot more than action and cut and i think it comes back to the same thing that we're we're talking about is like because on the day things always arise that you don't expect and you're really there has to be one person who's making those decisions because uh it would take too long if if those decisions were made by committee right too expensive you can't afford the delays and uh on the jaws uh point in addition the fin, for those people who have seen or want to see it, there are these open water scenes, which, by the way, much, much more complex than Spielberg expected to film. And so even the fin was difficult to use, and they didn't want to overuse it.

Starting point is 00:32:44 So they came up with, on the the spot the idea of using these barrels to track the shark. And for those of you who want to check it out, you can revisit that. But it was absolutely an example of the improvising that you mentioned, the ability to improvise. How did you learn to direct? Now, putting aside, if possible, the fact that you had been directed so much. So you've been absorbing through osmosis, perhaps, quite a bit, given your career. But when you knew that on the horizon, you're going to be directing your own film, how did you go about learning more about directing the craft, maybe the technical side, whatever it is that you felt you need to know? What was your approach to learning how to do that? Well, yeah, first of all, I just had the advantage of being on a set a lot and watching a lot of directors on a set.

Starting point is 00:33:44 So that part kind of came naturally. Um, but there's a lot more to directing than the time on the set. I think the other, one other thing that I came to focus on though, um, was editing. Um, cause as an actor, you never get to be in the editing room. You're not really aware of that whole process. And it's a huge, huge part of what makes a movie. And I love editing. yet. That wasn't available to consumers yet. Sounds hard to believe now because you can, you know, edit video on your phone nowadays. But when I was, you know, first starting to, you know, make fun little videos with my buddies when I was 10 or whatever, and we were using our family video camera, which, you know, weighed more than 50 iPhones all duct taped together. Editing was sort of a holy grail because we would try something and be like, oh, wait, I wish we could do it again. But you kind of can't do it

Starting point is 00:34:54 again unless you can edit. And you kind of could if you set it up. It was a real pain in the ass if you tried to like dub what you had shot on the video camera onto an old VHS VCR and hit the pause button at just the right moment and then find the next thing and dub again. And hopefully the cut was sort of smooth, but it never was. Anyway, when editing finally became something you could just do on a computer at home, I was thrilled. And for my 21st birthday, I got myself a new computer and my first copy of Final Cut Pro. And this was like 2002. And, um, I mean, I ended up dropping out of college cause I was just so fascinated with sitting there and editing and. Okay. So just, just, no, no, no, we're not skipping ahead. We're jumping all over to the right places. So just for people who don't have this context, maybe we should revisit this.

Starting point is 00:36:06 So you went from show business, so to speak, back to school. And then the, so this was one of the catalyzing events then for leaving school was getting this Final Cut Pro. It was 100% the catalyzing event because I would be sitting there at night and I was supposed to be writing a paper for college and all I wanted to do was edit. And I was like, I think I have to drop out of school. And then I did. All right. You know, there's, there's no set script for this conversation. So let's, let's talk about that for a second. We can come back to directing. Cause I, I want to certainly talk more about your own experience with your film. But why did you, of all things, why go back to school? Why did you decide, place us in time, like where were you, your name, impressive career. Why do that?

Starting point is 00:37:06 What was the scene, if you can set us up with a description of where you were in life and how you made that decision? Well, I mean, I've been acting since I was six years old and was lucky enough to do it pretty consistently throughout my childhood and adolescence. Is it true, just as a quick side note, because I've been drinking green tea since we started, so now I have more personality. Is it true that you used to blow out your birthday candles wishing

Starting point is 00:37:36 for gigs or something like that? Am I making that up? Am I hallucinating? No, that's something in a magazine that's true. Great. There's a lot in the magazines that may not be true. Okay, cool. So I didn't mean to interrupt, though. So, yes, you've had this long career already, starting at age six. Yeah, and, well, I'd always wanted to go to college. um you know my my dad actually dropped out of college but my mom really uh spoke very highly of university and i think and and even got her master's um and uh i was just always really

Starting point is 00:38:19 looking forward to that i'd always liked school i was always sort of studious. I liked learning. Um, and always frankly found elementary school, junior high, high school, a little, um, uh, lacking, uh, in, in what I was really wanting. I was hoping that once I got to college, then I would like be in these classes that were just blowing my mind all the time. And so, yeah. And I think also besides the academics, I wanted to not know my future. I always had. Right. And that makes perfect sense.

Starting point is 00:39:02 I was around all my friends who were, you know, some of them were going to college, some of them weren't, but they all were, you know, finishing high school and starting off on life and like figuring out what they wanted to do or what they wanted to be. And, and I felt like, wait, I shouldn't, I shouldn't just let my six year old self make the decision for me of what I'm going to be for my whole life. I should, I should be also making that decision, not just six year old me. And, uh, and so I thought it'd be, it'd be right to quit acting for a while and just go to school. And, um, that's what I did. I, and I think is, um, one of the, one of the better decisions I've ever made, um, both to, to quit for a while and also to move

Starting point is 00:39:54 away from home. Um, you know, not everybody, uh, can afford to move away from home, but luckily I, I was able to, and,. And living in a new city, while on the one hand really challenging, is a huge growth spurt just for who you are and what you think and what you know. And I loved moving away. Where were you moving from and where did you move to? I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, Sherman Oaks, which is a suburb in L.A., although all of L.A. is sort of a suburb because it doesn't have a center like a conventional city. But this is really the suburbs. And I moved to New York City, like Manhattan. Columbia University is where I went. And I mean, I still miss New York.

Starting point is 00:40:52 I don't live there anymore. But New York City is just incredible. Walking around, you know, in L.A., you don't walk so much. You mostly drive places. And, uh, my favorite thing, still my favorite thing to do in New York is not any particular restaurant or bar or site or anything. It's just walk out your door wherever you are and walk and see what you see and see who you see. And I get so much inspiration from doing that whenever I go to that city. It is an amazing city. Now, you ultimately, as you mentioned not too long ago, found Final Cut.

Starting point is 00:41:38 And that was the end of school. What did you choose to major in and why? And besides moving away from home, why did you find it to be a valuable experience? but I never actually had to do it. Um, but I was, uh, it would have been a French major because by that time I was taking my classes in French cause I, I frankly, and this isn't any sort of slight to Columbia university where I went, I just found myself, I think, underwhelmed in the academic setting. Um, I, there were some classes that really interested me, but one thing I really, that really bothered me was, um, you were supposed to read so much that there was no way you could read it thoroughly. Right.

Starting point is 00:42:37 And, uh, I felt like, uh, I felt like that's what I had been trying to get away from high school where you're having to like prove to someone that you read something and it's kind of condescending and not, not very enriching. And I thought college was going to be something more than that. But, um, and maybe it would have been if I were using it right, or maybe it would have been if I had stuck around, um, and, uh, you know, declared a major, but, um, but what I really did like was studying in French because then no matter what I was learning, just sitting in the class and listening to the teacher speak French or trying to read something in French, kind of no matter what the subject matter, no matter what the paper was supposed to be on or what the test was or anything, just the fact that

Starting point is 00:43:25 it was in another language meant I was learning. And, um, I had always wanted to speak another language. I felt, I felt sort of, uh, inferior for not speaking more than one language. And, uh, and I got to the point where I, I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm like a fluent French speaker, like someone who lives there, but, um, you know, I'm like a fluent French speaker, like someone who lives there. But, you know, I can have a conversation with someone in French. I can read the newspaper slowly. And it really taught me a lot about even about English, just about and about language to kind of have more than one in my head. Why did you choose French?

Starting point is 00:44:03 Just I think mostly because I liked French movies. That's a perfectly good reason. An aesthetic thing. And my mom studied French. So I'd, I'd always kind of had that in the air, a sort of a Francophilia. And, um, she lived in France for a number of years and, and, you know, spoke about it really romantically. And, uh, that's one of my favorite moments in life is like walking through Paris with my mom and her being like, this is where I worked when I was younger than you are now. And, um, I loved it here that there was a real completion there to getting to do that with her. Um, nowadays, I, if you know, I, there's probably other languages that would be much more practical to learn, but, um, and not just nowadays back then too, but, um, uh, but yeah, aesthetically, I just always found it really appealing and, um, I liked it. I think with language, not to, not to interject, uh, or add too much of my, my own thoughts here but languages your thoughts languages can be very challenging and i deeply feel that if you as a native speaker say of english want to learn

Starting point is 00:45:16 a language that you should unless you need to absolutely get a job that requires another language for instance if you are a ethnic indian Indian living in Dubai and you need to speak English to work in the hospitality industries in some capacity, focus on English. Otherwise, I would suggest you follow your interest. In this case, yours was spurred by exposure to French films, because it's going to be, they're going to be challenging times. And they're going to be difficulties along the road. And you want to have the enthusiasm and the passion that you feel for not just the language, but the culture to help you get over those hurdles. And I remember very clearly when I was just starting as an East Asian studies major in college to take Chinese, I'd been taking Japanese and I just started Chinese and there were 60 kids in the class.

Starting point is 00:46:19 Within two weeks, there were 12 kids in the class because the pronunciation and so on is so alien and so strenuous so stressful i should say more accurately that it weeds out a lot of people who are say just there to develop a toolkit for a prospective career that may or may not even materialize later right it's the people who are obsessed with something really odd like the e-ching or obsessed with calligraphy or some weird at not they're amazing chinese movies oh and they're amazing chinese movies this is very very true uh but but i don't want to take us down too far a rabbit hole on the chinese and so on i want to come back to the uh the question of directing the topic of directing your own movies.

Starting point is 00:47:05 You've directed quite a number. You mentioned when you were working with Spielberg, I suppose it was maybe a year later or a year and a half later, you're going to be directing your own film. Which film was that? That movie's called Don John. So Don John, you, as I understand it, wrote, starred in don john how did that what's the creation story why did you choose to make this movie to write direct and star in it and maybe you could give just a synopsis of the uh not necessarily a synopsis but a a sentence or two or three or four or five however many you like on the uh the subject matter yeah um well don john's uh a sort of a off take on

Starting point is 00:47:56 the old don juan story who's a you know a mythical womanizer um and it's about a guy who's addicted to pornography, um, and who I think more than just being addicted to pornography sort of objectifies everything in his life, not only women, but, uh, his friends, his family, his own body, uh, his car, his God. Uh, he treats everything as sort of an an object much the same way as he treats the women that he jerks off to when he's watching porn and has to sort of have a self-realization about that. It's sort of a coming of age story. A coming of age story. And why? Why did I want to tell that story? Well, it's in certain ways a story about media, which is something that I've focused on my whole life. And like I was saying, a story about how people objectify other people. And I guess without, without trying to sound, uh, like I'm complaining, I have felt kind of objectified myself, um, throughout my life,

Starting point is 00:49:15 um, because, uh, of, of being in the media. Sure. And, uh, and, and besides that sort of feeling uncomfortable for me and there were times in my life when it felt really uncomfortable i had i mean i i had real anxiety about it when i was younger and i've i've gotten more comfortable with it now but um besides that i also think that it's not really good for the objectifier either to for for people out there who watch these faces on screens and and see them as these, I don't know, almost deified special entities that are, you know, more important or more attractive or you know more worthy of celebration than the Watcher I think that's a really prominent idea in our culture and one that deserves to be attacked and made fun of. And, uh, and so that's, that's what the movie is sort of about. What, what was hardest about making that movie or getting it distributed? Could be anything. What were, what were some of the hardest aspects of that, if any come to mind?

Starting point is 00:50:52 Yeah, well, writing's really hard. Um, it's super fun. I love writing, but it's hard. Um, I think partially because it's, it's more of a, a loner sport. Um, at least, uh, that one was for me. I wrote it myself and, and I had a great time doing it. But I think probably if you ask what's the hardest part, it's those moments where, you know, I'll be sitting there having spent who knows how many hours on this over the last X years trying to make this script something that i think is good and hearing a voice in my head saying this has all been a waste of time you should probably just stop now that kind of thing that's kind of the story of my life right there. Uh, and, um, cause there's, there's no one you can really turn to, to, to fight that voice. You have to just, in those moments, you just kind of have to ignore it. And, uh, you know, or if the voice is really getting the better you, I found, I would just have to be like, okay,

Starting point is 00:52:04 I'm going to have to stop for now. I'll come back to this later. Were there any books or resources or screenplays that you found particularly helpful or motivating in the process of writing this? I never read a book about screenwriting. I know they're out there. I've glanced at some, I, I skimmed through one recently, um, uh, called save the cat, which was, um, I thought smart in, in a lot of ways. Um, but also with all due respect to the smart guy who wrote it sort of cynical and, and off-putting in, in times. Um,

Starting point is 00:52:45 and, uh, yeah, I don't know. I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't want to say that I don't recommend people read those books cause there are probably some really good, um, good thoughts in, in those screenwriting books that sort of talk about conventional structure and the three acts and things like that. I, I've sort of, um, I guess got to take in a way, a shortcut in a way, a long cut because, um, I've just been around it and I've read so many scripts over the years. I mean, my mom was reading me scripts before I could read. And, uh, it's a good, good advantage. Yeah. So I, I've had a certain osmosis, I guess. And look, I probably learned as much from the bad scripts as from the good scripts. Uh, and I've certainly read way more bad scripts than good scripts. Um, and, uh, and I also have, you know, for me, writing is a lot like acting. Um, when you're, when you're acting, you spend a lot of time with your scripts. And so I can, you know, when I'm writing a scene, uh, I'm treating it much like I do when i'm preparing to act in that scene and and then i can

Starting point is 00:54:09 read it and be like no that doesn't feel good and i've had you know so many experiences as an actor where you're sitting there with a scene and being like i just wish that this line was phrased a little differently and when you're the writer you can just rewrite it which is nice yeah and depending on the director you're working with sometimes you can come in and say you know hey can I say this a little bit differently and that goes back to what we were saying about a director before that's that's exactly one of those moments where a director has to go, huh, we've been sitting with that line that way for all this time.

Starting point is 00:54:49 And now I have to tell the actor yes or no. Um, yes, you can change it or no, don't. Um, and there's, you know, ways to approach that. You can, you can always say, let's try it both ways. Or sometimes, uh, I found usually the actors are right. And the dialogue that I wrote was much improved by the actors in Don John, Scarlett Johansson and Julianne Moore and other ones, too, who said lines that were ultimately, you know, sometimes subtly different, sometimes quite a bit different than what I wrote, and I think really benefited. So Joe, you mentioned being objectified, having experienced being objectified. And this leads me to want to ask a question about

Starting point is 00:55:41 fame in general, because I have many listeners, many readers who say are on Instagram or on fill in the blank social networks, Snapchat, whatever it might be. And their very explicit goal is to be as famous as possible to have as many followers among other things. There are different indicators that they would use to determine whether they are famous enough or not. But that is a real explicit goal for a lot of folks. Could you maybe share what you would say to someone who is currently holding in mind being famous as a goal. Yeah. This is something I think about a lot. Because I guess I've experienced it to some degree. Being famous? I would say so.

Starting point is 00:56:39 Well, from what I've seen and experienced, um, fame doesn't necessarily make you happy. Um, and I think the assumption on, on the part of the people you're describing is that if they get a certain amount famous, then they'll be happy. Right. Cause that's really what we all want is to be happy. Um, depending on how you define the word happiness. But I think that sort of is the definition of happiness in a way is what, what we want to be. Um, and, uh, the people that I know that have whatever amount of fame, some of them are happy,

Starting point is 00:57:21 some of them are not happy. Um, and the fame isn't what makes them happy. Uh, you know, what makes somebody happy, I think is, um, you know, do you have your health? Do you have good people around you? Do you get to do things that you like doing? And, and that's where it gets complicated because sometimes, um, having a certain amount of fame does allow you to do the things that you want to do. So it's not a simple answer. And there are trade-offs also, right? It's not like you just get the upside when you have a lot of public exposure. I mean, I know even in my tiny, fake, famous 14 minutes into my 15 minutes of fame capacity, I've had to sell houses before because like a crazy person has gotten a hold of the address and shown up, uh, certainly without

Starting point is 00:58:22 any announcement. And there's been a sort of perceived level of threat associated with that uh and and that isn't one 100th of what you've experienced so there are sort of commensurate with your degree of fame very real trade-offs yeah for sure there there are real life trade-offs like that. Um, although I would say the, the thing that's, that's much more impactful isn't, um, real life invasion of privacy in your physical space. It's more an invasion into your, uh, mental, to your mental space, into your, your own identity. And, And I don't think this is just restricted to being famous. And especially now that the lines have been blurred so much between

Starting point is 00:59:15 who's famous and who's not famous. It used to be much more clear cut. But nowadays, you can be, like you said, on Instagram with a certain number of followers and you can, you know, have fame is much more of a spectrum now. And, and I think, um, it can be really toxic, um, because what it, because it's really addictive, I think. Um, and, uh, and I think there's a reason for it. I don't think it's like evil or something. You know, if you go back, I like to think of things in terms of how it evolved. And I like to think of early humans, like, you know, like at the beginning of 2001 or something. And if you go back to early, early human-like creatures out on the savanna trying to survive, it probably was an advantage if everyone in your tribe or your pack or whatever you want to call it knew you,

Starting point is 01:00:20 that probably meant that you were more likely to survive and pass on your genes. And so I think there is something biological in us that wants that attention. And so it's not evil if you feel that urge. I think it's pretty natural. But I think that urge now in the context of modern civilization can be can be really addictive and sort of poisonous because what happens is you start uh seeing yourself through the eyes of others more and more of the time and you start and and i think social media is is really really created a giant leap forward in this direction and is the kind of thing that used to be reserved for very famous people who were maybe stalked by paparazzi or whatever. And so I feel like I see it a lot where there's a good word to describe it, which I kind of coming from within yourself versus being extrinsically motivated is when your motivation is coming from without, from other people, from wanting to do things because of how other people will perceive it. And I think that's a recipe for unhappiness usually.

Starting point is 01:02:03 Not absolutely. recipe for unhappiness usually not absolutely this isn't a case of black or white and and there's plenty of virtue to wanting to do things that will make other people happy etc um but uh but when it really gets that deep inside your head where your whole identity is sort of, uh, uh, becomes a performance. Um, I think that that can be, uh, on unhealthy or it can really, it can really do a number on your head. And, uh, I've seen it. Um, and I've, I've spent my whole life kind of trying to avoid that sometimes probably overzealously. And, and I've, I'm, I'm sometimes kind of overprotective or overly allergic to the trappings of fame, etc. But I'm so, I think, scared of falling down that rabbit hole of becoming overly extrinsically motivated that I really try to stay away. And, and, and, and especially

Starting point is 01:03:06 when it comes to art, which, you know, art and fame have a, are sort of odd bedfellows, but, um, because, you know, if you want to be a musician and you want to be an actor, a lot of people, I imagine the people you're describing who really want to be famous, they want to be famous by becoming actors or becoming musicians or becoming some other kind of artists. And again, it's complicated because on the one hand, it might mean that, well, that's, that, that's means that my, my work is resonating with lots of people and that's not necessarily bad. But if you're only doing it for that, um, I feel like that's kind of hollow and i personally feel like i can hear it in in like or see it in in someone's performance i i won't you know name any artist in particular but

Starting point is 01:03:57 there are sometimes i'll see a performance in a movie or like i all hear a song and I'll be like, I just feel, I feel like they're, they're performing for their, their, their fame, not, not for them, for themselves,

Starting point is 01:04:16 for something that's, that's inside of them. Well, you're alluding to something that has always impressed me about you. why it scares me also is because I've felt it in myself. There's, it's very seductive and, and, uh, and I'm sure I've been guilty of it in moments or in, in big times or, you know, like I I've been very guilty of it at times, I'm sure. But I really try to keep an eye on it because, um, cause I, I've, I've kind of, I've seen what it, what it can do to other people and even to myself. Right. I mean, unabated, unarrested, uninterrupted.

Starting point is 01:05:14 If you allow that, I'm not going to say infection, because like you said, there are some very plausible explanations for why we want or crave social acceptance or validation. But if you apply jet fuel and steroids to it in the form of these technological tools that we now have at our disposal, if all you want is your face to be recognized by 200,000 more people on Instagram, or a million and a half more people on Instagram, whatever it might be, it can be very toxic, as you noted. And what I was leading up to is the observation, and this may be incorrect, but at least in a few cases, it seems to be true, that you've taken very deliberate breaks from acting, from your career in entertainment, let's call it. And that goes back to your break for school, where you didn't want to, in an unquestioning way, continue on a path that you were put on at age six.

Starting point is 01:06:12 So there was a deliberate pattern interrupt. And then later, you took a bunch of time off when you had kids. And it's, I would imagine that in entertainment, perhaps like in technology and the world of startups and venture capital and so on, there's a, there has to be, and I want you to poke holes in this if it's not true, there has to be a a degree of fear of missing out in the industries that are associated right there there is a there must be people who continue to take whatever jobs they can get because they have a fear of becoming irrelevant that if they step outside of that slipstream, that no one will remember them X number of years or X number of months later. So they make compromises. And I'd love to

Starting point is 01:07:13 hear, you could talk about any number of them, but how have you decided, what has been the self-talk and the thinking as you decide to take breaks? Yeah. Um, well, certainly you're right. The, the FOMO is real, uh, and it's not just a fear. Um, because I think maybe even more in show business than maybe any other industry in a certain way. It's, it's, uh, you know, who gets a job as an actor is very, um, very emotionally driven. Um, you know, like studios have some metrics and stuff that they look at and they have their math formulas about, you know, what actors are in what movies that make what amounts of money. But compared to say what goes on in Silicon Valley, which is really,

Starting point is 01:08:10 really data driven, I'm by the way, only having learned what that even means fairly recently, but, but, but it's really emotionally driven who gets hired as an actor. And so it's a lot about, you know, quote unquote heat. And if you stop, your heat's going to die down.

Starting point is 01:08:35 And it's a real opportunity cost of taking a break. But, um, the two big breaks that you're talking about, uh, one, when I quit acting for a while to go to college and, and another recently, uh, I had kids and, um, took a lot of time off and I'm still kind of taking up, um, I'm, I'm working a lot less right now than I was before I had kids. Of course, there's a professional opportunity cost there, but it's a pretty simple comparison. Like, what do I care about more? And I don't want to say that. I mean, look, talking about parenting is really, really tough because I have found as a as a parent, um, because, uh, everybody's

Starting point is 01:09:26 got their own life. Everybody's got a unique scenario and everybody makes their choices. And those choices are, they're, they're such high stakes choices, um, that I, I, I feel bad even already just saying what I said, because I don't want to imply that if someone wasn't able to take as much time off as I was, that they were somehow doing a disservice to their kids. I, I don't want to imply that if someone wasn't able to take as much time off as I was, that they were somehow doing a disservice to their kids. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that's too reductive and it's not that simple. Everybody's got to do what they've got to do. That said, I love having had the chance to work less and spend more time with my kids. Uh, and I do think it's wonderful that there are some countries in the world that, that, uh, you know, afford people maternity leave and even paternity leave. Um, that's a lot less common in the U S. Um, and I

Starting point is 01:10:22 was just fortunate enough to have to have made money in my life where I can afford to do it. Have you had people try to talk you out of taking breaks? Or has that not really been something you've encountered? Or you commit to taking a break and then you get a call from a manager, agent, whoever it might be, and they say, I know you're on break, but we've agent of mine assistant when I quit acting and went to school. And he was the one calling me when I was at school saying like, I know you're going to

Starting point is 01:11:13 school, but, um, you might want to consider getting back into acting. And, uh, and then once my heat had died all the way down, uh, and in my early twenties and I wanted to get back into acting. And, uh, by the way, I had been known for being on like a TV comedy and stuff, and I didn't want to do that anymore. I wanted to do, you know, sort of dramatic and independent films and stuff. And no one really thought that I could do that. And no one really thought that I was going to have much more of a career. I, I thought, you know, I think pretty much all of my agents thought, well, you're that kid that was on that show. And that's where it ends. And that's what happens with most kids who are on shows for better or worse. What was the show? What was the show? And I was on third rock from the sun

Starting point is 01:12:00 from age 13 to 19. Big show. Thank you. Thank you. Um, uh, and when I'm, I'm very proud of and, you know, remember very fondly, but, uh, uh, uh, Warren was the only one really who, who kind of kept calling me and saying like, I, I think you could be good at doing the things that you want to do. Um, and he's still my agent and, um, he was the one sort of trying to coax me back into acting when I was taking a break for college. But all these years later, when I had kids, he didn't say one thing like that because he knows me too well. And and we're friends and he wouldn't. You know, he had nothing but respect for me taking the time off that I did. And, you know, any agents out there listening, take note. That is proper etiquette.

Starting point is 01:12:53 Yeah, really, really, really well done, I think. Which isn't to say that he didn't tell me about the opportunity cost, because he did. That's his job. But when he would tell me about the opportunity cost, he wouldn't do it in any kind of passive aggressive way or like you know threaten me he would just be telling me the truth and that's what's so good about him as an agent he really just tells me the you know his perception of the truth of the business which is not always kind but um but is the most useful information. When you were at that point, at 19, let's just say, and there are many non-believers in your ability to explore these other types of acting and so on, and I'm looking at a piece from The Guardian,

Starting point is 01:13:43 and feel free to correct this, because there are misquotes everywhere about everyone. But when you were asked what type of acting you'd like to do, you wanted to be in a movie that might play at Sundance or something by Quentin Tarantino. And then it comes... That's true. Yeah. And then it comes to if there was a good year or if not more being turned away by casting directors, right? And then the quote I want to explore is this. There were moments, days even of listlessness, you know, wallowing in self-rejection and loathing and despair.

Starting point is 01:14:17 It closes with I also had pretty strong moments of intense optimism. But aside from Warren's belief in you during that period, right? The, the, the one guy who keeps calling, what helps you get through those periods of rejection and self-doubt? Are there any, any, any tools in the toolkit or any particular tips you might give to people who are going through, or certainly at some point will go through that type of experience of doubting themselves? That's a great question. Um, well, the first thing is simply just having good people around you. Uh, and I, I had that, but I think the, um, people who love you no matter what, um, and I'm lucky to have had that. Um, but beyond that, I, I, this goes back to what we were just talking about a minute ago of being

Starting point is 01:15:14 intrinsically or extrinsically motivated. Um, I think it's, those are the moments, Hey, it's easy to be extrinsically motivated when the world's like just giving you a bunch of thumbs ups right but um but uh it's in it's in those moments where you you really just it's it's just you um in the darker times or the moments of rejection right yeah i remember um what if i may interrupt for a second what what brought up this intrinsic In the darker times or the moments of rejection, right? Yeah, I remember... If I may interrupt for a second, what brought up this intrinsic, extrinsic motivation recently or in the last few years? Is that a book that you read that explored that? Was it something else? I believe Grit by Angela Duckworth is a book that explores this in some capacity as it relates to parenting.

Starting point is 01:16:07 So how to talk to your kids. Yeah, it might have been that. I think I just heard it from my wife, honestly. She might have gotten, if not that book, she might have gotten it from, she's read a fair amount about child development. And that is something that we talk about in terms of parenting, wanting the kid to be intrinsically motivated. And when you overstimulate a kid, it can lead to always chasing that sort of outside approval, which then leads to when you're an adult,

Starting point is 01:16:44 then if you can't sort of find satisfaction in yourself, you're always going to go looking for it elsewhere. And that might take shape in any number of forms, whether it's looking for, you know, ending up in a codependent relationship or an addiction to something or who knows what, um, or something much more subtle than that. But, uh, I, yeah, I think, I think actually you thought of it and, uh, I think it probably was in terms of child development that I, that I learned those words. But I did interrupt you. Uh, I apologize for interrupting you. Then I interrupt you. Now I'm going to segue out of my interruption. So you were talking about having good people around you

Starting point is 01:17:23 as structure and and and anything else that might come to mind because you're saying it's it's easy to be extrinsically oriented when everyone is giving you high fives and like making it rain with money for great gigs but on the flip side it's very punishing and painful to be extrinsically motivated when you're on the other side. That's just it. I remember it was during this same time that I was trying to become an actor again and failing. I was getting rejected a lot. This is right when I started when like really taking seriously editing and making my own stuff. Um, because I, I kind of came to realize, all right, I can't, I can't just wait around for someone to give me a part. It's too painful. I, I have to be able to get the joy that I get through creativity, um, on my own. I can't.

Starting point is 01:18:29 And, um, I remember, uh, it was around that time. Uh, I made a little short film and I submitted it to the con film festival. Um, it was in French and I like did it anonymously. I didn't go through my agent or anything. I wanted to see what would happen if I just, uh, didn't like pull any of the strings or use any of the connections I had, um, from having worked in show business before. And, uh, the short film did not get into the Cannes Film Festival. And I was and I but I was I was actually surprised because I thought it was really good. And and and I thought I kind of thought it would. And and. A dear friend of mine who's a filmmaker, Ryan Johnson, his name, who I've been in two of his movies, his first movie brick, and then his third movie looper. And, um, he, he recently just made, um, star Wars,

Starting point is 01:19:29 the last Jedi. He's a great, great filmmaker, but also a dear friend. And I remember at that time, having just gotten rejected by the con film festival, uh, he recommended that i read letters to a young poet uh real gay rainer rainer real k sort of a i think a known book um but there's a there's a passage in there all about solitude and um i think it gets a lot at what we've been talking about in terms of being intrinsically motivated which is so important when especially i think if you're going to be an artist although maybe no matter what you do and uh it's all about how you have to just go into yourself and do your very very best to let everything outside of that fade away and and find what's really really going on in just your own whatever you want to call it your own psyche your own self your own whatever and uh i i think in terms of the kind of dark moments you're talking about where you're facing that

Starting point is 01:20:53 kind of rejection when the world is telling you you're not going to do what you want to do we don't want you um what really worked for me was just kind of ignoring that and finding motivation to want to keep making things not for them. do to create yeah right start to finish which i think we're going to spend a lot of time on we are going to spend uh quite a bit of time on and i'm not sure if this is a timing connection i'd love to ask you uh so if so you mentioned looper which i'm looking at your filmography, I believe was 2012. Yep, shot in 2011 and came out in 2012. Right. You were a busy, busy, busy boy in 2012. Yeah. Dark Knight Rises, Premium Rush, Looper, Lincoln, lots going on.

Starting point is 01:21:59 Now, I was looking at a GQ piece that came out August 2012, and I've only read this name, so I'm probably going to butcher it. Is it Zoe Deschanel? Is that how you say the name? Yeah, Zoe. Perfect. So Zoe said that when the two of you did 500 Days of Summer together, eight years after first working together, you were lighter and less burdened uh she said that you changed a lot why do you think she said that and what contributed to the change that's funny uh well i think she's comparing it to zoe and i've done two movies together 500 days a summer uh and then i guess eight years prior we did this movie uh together called manic it's a little known tiny budget you know indie drama um which was really really heavy so that might have contributed something to it that we were just subject? Yeah, we were making a movie about kids in a psychiatric lockdown facility.

Starting point is 01:23:07 But, yeah, I mean, I think I probably felt, I was 19 and I was, I was up against exactly, uh, that moment that we were just talking about where I wanted to do, um, a movie that might play at Sundance. Right. And all my agents thought that I was, that I should just sign up for another TV comedy for the next five years and had no, uh, belief that I could do anything other than that. And, um, and the casting directors seemed to agree with them. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I was, I was really worried, I guess, and, and feeling and feeling insecure about that. When did HitRecord enter the picture? And can you tell us how it came to be? Exactly the same time. All right. So I thought there might be a correlation. Not saying it's causative,

Starting point is 01:24:20 not saying it's causal, but what is hit record and why? Why did it manifest? Well, it was in the midst of those exact times when I was wanting to get jobs, trying to get jobs, failing to get jobs, and feeling like, fuck, I can't keep waiting around for someone else to let me be creative i have to be able to do it on my own and uh hit record became this little um like turn of phrase that i would say to myself in those moments like a little wordplay about the record button you know hearkening back to the little videos I would make on the family video camera that had you know a red circle with our EC over it and when you hit record you you start to do it

Starting point is 01:25:18 and of course it's sort of a play on a hit record. And that was just my little almost kind of personal mantra or something that I had to be the one to do it. I wanted to push the button. I wasn't going to wait to just be an actor and stand in front of the camera. I wanted to hit record. Um, and, uh, and, and the play on hit record is that, that hit record is an object, but to hit record is an action doing something. Anyway, these are the kinds of things that I would stay up late at night. Um, I'm musing about, um, what, what, what, what does hit record become? What is, yeah, it's changed a lot since then well uh i mean i guess i'll just tell the whole long story right that's the beauty of a podcast we have no rush yeah i'm always i'm always like

Starting point is 01:26:13 telling the short version of this story no let's do the long version yeah uh well so i mentioned earlier that uh right that time, I learned to edit. And so I was finally able to kind of start making things on my own, finished things. And this is like 2004-ish, so a little before YouTube. And I wanted to put the little videos I was starting to make on the internet. And my brother helped me set up a little website called HitRecord. And we named it after this little mantra that I was saying to myself. And it was nothing.

Starting point is 01:26:58 It was just a page of HTML where you could download a couple of quick times of videos I had made. And, um, and, uh, over the next few years, I would sometimes put a new video on there, things like that. Um, and then, uh, we put a, um, a message board on there, like one of those old PHP message boards for the techies out there. it looks not too dissimilar from popular message boards nowadays like reddit or something but kind of the the ancestor of that um and anybody could kind of start their own it was easy if you knew how to do a little code my brother was a coder so he helped he put up this message board and we watched as this little community formed on a message board, um, around at first around these little about what I was doing or, or, uh, what I had made. Um, what a lot of people actually wanted to do was make things together, both with each other and with me. And, um, and we saw that when I say we, I mean, my brother and I, I'm like, that's cool. That's,

Starting point is 01:28:21 that's really new. That's unlike anything you could have done prior to this new technology and it's different than um than just playing videos on the internet because that's kind of just like tv except on a different screen but if people were actually making things together through the screen now you're really kind of like doing something new. And, uh, and we leaned into that. And, and at this time it was nothing but a hobby. We weren't spending any money. We had no intention of making any money. Uh, it was just something we were doing for fun, spent a lot of time on it, um, and had a lot of fun. But it grew. And then I started thinking and talking with friends of mine about how this sort of collaborative process that was happening within this community on this message board, would there be a way to have that operate on a grander scale? Could we make things that were sort of at a quality level? Could we make like a short film that would get into Sundance? Or could we make music that we could release as a record? Could we make a book that we published? Or could we even maybe one day use this methodology to make a TV show or these are the kinds of things we were wondering. And we, we set about figuring out how to do it.

Starting point is 01:29:50 Um, and we started a company and, um, you know, hired lawyers to figure out the terms of service because, you know, for the intellectual property of it and everything, because we really wanted to maintain the collaborative spirit of people not just sort of submitting a short film and being like hey i'm now posting my short film to your website will you try to get it into sundance for me but instead having there be a community of people that are working together um and saying like well i can do this well i can do this and um oh you wrote something, maybe I'll rewrite it or maybe I'll draw something based on what you wrote. Uh, and then maybe someone else would be like, Oh,

Starting point is 01:30:29 I like your drawing. Maybe I'll animate your drawing and seeing what can kind of come out of that. Um, and, uh, and it started working and, uh, and that was in, um, 2010 we launched it and it's, it's grown a lot since then we did those things. We, we, we made short films that got into Sundance and we published books and we put out records and we even, we made a TV show that won an Emmy and, um, we've paid artists, um, a couple million dollars now over the years. Um, and, uh, the funny And the funny thing, actually, what comes to mind speaking to you is because you really come from the world of entrepreneurship and business, and we never treated it that way. I mean, it's, it, it, um, it was, it was always more of an art project, even though it, it actually, uh, it's become profitable over the

Starting point is 01:31:32 last four years. It's, it's, it's paid for itself. I, I bankrolled it at first and then it, it started paying for itself. Um, but I remember people, people years ago would say like, how are you going to build it to scale? And I'd be like, oh, I don't know what that means. So I'm going to pretend like I don't care. And it's only now that we've sort of accomplished some of the things that we looked to accomplish. And we're now looking to accomplish even more ambitious things that I've kind of come to realize, oh, you know, if we're going to do more than just like one TV show at a time, if we're going to like make lots of things and involve more and more people and really try to set an example for how the internet could be something besides just a showcase, but actually a place where people are productive together. Um, uh, we need to make

Starting point is 01:32:27 this thing work as a business in addition to an art project. And it's something we've, that I'm actually excited about, uh, recently that sort of what I've been focusing on is figuring out, uh, not how to, you know, I don't want to like change it really, but just how to figure out how to, I guess, arrange it and, and, and make it, make it work. And so that it can really grow and make it more accessible to more people. And, um, that's, that's what we've been focused on, uh, recently. Well, it seems like you're well on your way. I mean, you've had, uh, certainly with the successes on the platform and the collaborative model where you're well on your way. I mean, you've had, certainly with the successes on the platform, and the collaborative model where you're paying out to various contributors who add their skill sets, and so on to given projects, you've attracted the attention of some very big brands who have

Starting point is 01:33:19 who have come to the site for help with creative projects. And I want to, before I keep traveling on that thread, underscore something that you said, which is this didn't start off as a business. It started off as an art project. And even though I can put on the business hat and I can run different perspective projects through a business set of filters. My retrospectively, and this is often the only way that you can see things clearly, hindsight being 2020. But my best business decisions, if someone were to look at the

Starting point is 01:34:00 things that have turned out financially to deliver the most value to me personally and to the world uh quite frankly uh they did almost all of them started off with no financial considerations yeah and i'm not saying that if you need to make rent payments that that's the best way to figure out how to solve that problem. It isn't. But if you look at the, for instance, even my involvement in tech and startups, it began with me planning out two years of what would be a real world MBA, because I wanted to develop certain skill sets. And I was quite frankly, just fascinated by this new world. I knew very little about that. A friend of mine was very deeply involved with, uh, or the podcast, the podcast began

Starting point is 01:34:50 because I was completely burned out after completing this book called the four hour chef, which was an intense, intense project that should have taken three years. It was crammed into a year and a half. I'm very proud of the product. I don't think we sacrificed there, but in order not to sacrifice there, I just had to kill myself effectively for the entire period of time. And the podcast was something I wanted to experiment with because I enjoyed being on the interviewee side of the table so much on shows like the Joe Rogangan uh experience and nerdist and uh wtf with mark maron that i thought it would be a relaxing but productive way to decompress i would be able to focus on getting better at asking questions while simultaneously doing something that was completely

Starting point is 01:35:40 different in some respects from writing a book and no monetization model, no plans to have any type of sponsors, nothing, right? That's how it started. And I think that the reason people ask me all the time, they're like, do you still want to do the podcast? Are you still having fun? I'm like, yeah, I am actually still having fun. And I think in part it's because it began with with that being the sole one of the sole uh criterion really for continuing it was am i actually enjoying this i'm going to commit to doing six episodes and if i hate it i'm going to stop and in fact if it just bugs me a little bit i'm going to stop and lo and behold i enjoyed it more than i expected, and I kept doing it. So I think that you're in a great position because this platform, born out of passion of yours and the others involved in the very early stages, was adopted. You've proven out the model in many respects, which, by the way, a lot of the best entrepreneurs I know adopt as their path, whether it's Garrett Camp, co-founder of Uber or others,

Starting point is 01:36:48 who help get projects to a very, very viable stage before looking for, for instance, any kind of outside funding. You've, I think, checked off the preliminaries in a very organic way that sets you up potentially now, if you want to create something that is not just self-sustaining, but say fast growing to then bring in partners or outside funding, if, if, if desired, if that makes sense to really multiply how, how large this can become and how quickly it can become that. Uh, that's really, really exciting to hear you say that. Yeah, yeah, I know. I believe that.

Starting point is 01:37:29 So, I mean, at this point... But you know what? I wanted to just jump back one second because what you said reminded me of something that I think sort of ties a lot of what we've been talking about together. And that's when I first, first, first started acting, I was young. I was like six. Right. Very, very young. Yeah. And, uh, my mom asked me if I wanted to do it. Um, I think it's still, know i i had been singing in a choir and was in some like community theater and having grown up in la uh some of the kids that were in my community theater were going

Starting point is 01:38:14 on auditions for commercials and shows and stuff and and she asked if i wanted to do that and i said yeah and i always really liked it but there would be moments sometimes, uh, where I'd be like, oh, I don't feel like going on an audition today or whatever. And she would always say, you really don't have to do this. I want to make sure you never feel like you have to, is it's we're, we're only doing this cause, uh, you're enjoying it. I can tell that you really enjoy it. But if at any point you don't want to, you should just stop. And she wasn't saying it in any kind of like manipulative way. I realized it wasn't a wink. If you want to stop. No. She I think she really wanted to make sure I had that out. And, um, and I eventually did take the out, uh, later in life. Um, but, uh, it, it gets back to what you were saying of doing something

Starting point is 01:39:13 because you really want to do it. And that's that intrinsic motivation as opposed to extrinsic. If it's really, really something you want to do way down there, um, there's, there's kind of no substitute for that. And where, how are you thinking about the next few years of your life and hit record and all these things? I mean, you have a family now, um, certainly, uh, in a, in a different place than you were 10 years ago, certainly 15, 20 years ago. Where is HitRecord going and where are you going, do you think, in the next few years? Yeah, I mean, look, I love movies and I hope I get to keep working on them. And by movies, I mean whether it's movies or TV or whatever,

Starting point is 01:40:06 it's all kind of blending together now. Um, I hope I get to keep doing that, um, my whole life, but it's what I would really like to do is try to find a way to ultimately blend, uh, my conventional career in show business with, um, what we're doing on hit record. Uh, and I think that's still a while away before these, those two sides will really, uh, meld together. But, um, but one does kind of feed the other. Certainly whenever I have some success, if I'm in a movie that comes out that does well, hit record, sees a spike in interest, etc. But I really – I love the idea of the media being than, than what it's been. And I think frankly, uh, you know, maybe 10 years ago or so, or even a little more when, when kind of what's been called web 2.0 was starting up when YouTube emerged and things like that. I was really optimistic about that. And I think everyone was,

Starting point is 01:41:28 um, this is going to change the media. This is going to democratize media. This is going to, you know, um, this is going to make it so that, uh, the media is no longer about celebrity and narcissism and things like that. It's going to be about, uh, you know, substance and beauty. And, um, that obviously hasn't quite come to pass. I think I was maybe a little over optimistic and I don't think that hit record is necessarily like the antidote, the be all and end all, but, but it is, um, it's, it's our, and I say our, like, you know, a community now of 600,000 people, but it's our stab at a different way of doing it where you don't come on and just say, hey, world, look at me, look at me, look at me, look what I'm doing, look what I made. It's about, like, what can we make together? And to me, it really feels like that's the promise of the internet as a whole, is people connecting to be productive together, not just to kind of like be endlessly entertained and fed ads.

Starting point is 01:42:42 And that's what I hope to try to foster well i find hit record fascinating also people can check it out hit record.org if that's the best uh url to use but in part because you can peek under the hood and see how different types of projects are made and the constituent parts and the team that is involved. And I'm looking at the site right now, you have the project development slate, right? If you have a list of projects that are in concept development, then you have a list of projects that are in advanced development. Then you have a list of projects and funded projects and people can get a better understanding and education about how creative projects get made from the earliest stages to final product. And it's an opportunity.

Starting point is 01:43:35 I'm asked all the time, what type of company should I start from, say, college seniors and I taught a lecture in high-tech entrepreneurship which was oddly enough an electrical engineering course even not oddly because of the title but because I have no electrical engineering background whatsoever but I took this course ele 491 with an incredible professor named professor Xiao zsch at you and I was invited back to talk to students. And I would get asked very often, what type of company should I start? Or even worse, I hate to say this, but even worse would be, what are the trends right now? And what industry should I go into? I'm like, oh, God, that's setting you up for a lot of pain if that's the only filter you're using. But it presupposes that people should out of the gate start their own

Starting point is 01:44:25 company. And I'm not saying that they should or should not. But also, what type of movie should I make? What type of album should I put together? One recommendation happens in movies. Absolutely. And one of the recommendations that I often make, it's not always the best fit. There are some people who are just like, okay, this is the next Zuckerberg. You know what, like, you do not need to spend five years at someone else's company to learn the ropes. But for a lot of folks, maybe it is worthwhile to spend, uh, in the case of startups a year or two years at a fast growing startup so that you see exactly how this puzzle looks when it is put together in the early stages and to really build an education and skill sets and relationships that will then help you when you decide to start your own thing.

Starting point is 01:45:12 And I think that hit record is also an opportunity to do that collaboratively where it's like, all right, you think you might want to, uh, launch a career as a musician. You think you might want to launch career as a filmmaker. Well, why not kick the tires by contributing on a product or a project rather in one of those categories before you decide to bet the farm or jump headfirst into one of these things. So I think that it's really a fascinating opportunity to educate yourself and develop skills and relationships simultaneously, even if you are not aiming to start your own project, if that makes sense. I mean, that's, it's funny you say that. Cause actually that's, that's one of the things we tell, um, people who just join is don't start out by starting your own

Starting point is 01:46:00 thing, find someone else's thing that you like and help them and contribute because, um, uh, there's lots of people on there, talented people who've got their own projects going and they need contributions, whether it's music or a writing project or a film project or, um, you know, design project. There's, you know, we, we kind of do all kinds of media, but they need those contributions to come in. And that's the best way to start getting involved. If you if you show up on hit record and immediately say, I'm starting my own project, it's sort of like walking into, you know, a production company as, you know, the first day on the job entry level and saying like, okay, everybody follow me. I'm going to lead a, you know, this whole company in a project now might work sometimes, but, uh, but more often it's, it's better to, like you say,

Starting point is 01:46:58 work on other people's stuff first, get, you know, get your feet wet and and learn how it goes, because the way things get made on hit record is really different than the way things get made in anywhere else in the world, sort of, because it's this open, collaborative process. It's very different than I mean, there are similarities and differences to, say, a conventional movie set. But on a conventional movie set, not anyone can just stroll on and offer their ideas, throw in their two cents or uh you know then there's a the whole process of finding okay well if anybody can come in and try to make stuff you need people that are going through all the contributions and finding uh finding the ones that are the most applicable that can that can be useful in in the final production and there's it's, it's sort of its own beast and, and one I've come to really love. Um, but it takes some getting used to for sure. And so, uh, I, I totally agree. Uh, get started by, um, finding someone on there who you admire, you think is, is good at what they do and see what they're up to and see if you can help them. And, uh, this applies to so many different domains also. Uh, it makes me think of Y Combinator.

Starting point is 01:48:28 And for people who don't know what Y Combinator is, you can think of it as the Harvard meets Navy seals of startup incubators. That's one way to think about it. The acceptance rate is exceptionally, exceptionally low. And they start off with very short actually i should say they filter applications first then the next round is at least last i checked this is constantly evolving and why common air has become incredibly incredibly powerful also a lot of great essays by one of the co-founders paul graham paul graham such a great writer yeah if people want to look up uh one of my favorites i think it's manager's schedule versus maker's schedule Paul Graham. or something that you've made recently. And that doesn't have to be from blank slate. And just as you noted in your undergraduate experience,

Starting point is 01:49:32 some of the classes might have been super compelling, but a lot of them were very abstract and based on rote memorization and not putting the rubber to the road. In my experience, if you want to learn how to do X, go do X. And it particularly, if there's a way to do it with minimal risk where you have the opportunity to observe other people who are attempting the same thing. And for some that might take the form of say,

Starting point is 01:50:02 going to RISD and learning design and having active critiques. And I'm actually sitting on something called Crit Buns, which is literally an ass-cheek supporter that was the first real product made by Joe Gebbia, co-founder of Airbnb. My ass-cheeks need some support. Yeah, Crit Buns. There you go. So Joe, please give me my customary 5%. But where I'm going with that is that HitRecord and other environments that allow this type of open collaboration, for instance, I'm an advisor at a company called Automatic, M-A-T-T, Automatic. For those who are wondering how that was named, well, the founder's name is Matt Mullenweg. There you go, insider, automatic is his first name in the company name. But he was one of the if not considered the lead developer on WordPress. And you can see this type of beautiful collaboration.

Starting point is 01:50:57 And you also see look in any large community, you're also going to have some strife and the occasional village idiot that's going to happen. But this incredible dynamic of organic creation that comes out of an open source project like that, I think you can also see on HitRecord, but in some cases, a very visual medium. So in any case, that's just my way. And I don't have any secret equity stake in HitRecord. I just think it's, I think it's a, I think it's a very, very exciting environment and sandbox in which creatives can experiment. Uh, so I, that's cool. You just say, man, thank you. Yeah. So, I mean, uh, you're at, you said 600,000 or 000 or so people um let me know when you when you hit a million and i'll take a short video of me taking a tequila shot and shoot it back over to

Starting point is 01:51:50 you uh and i want to be respectful of your time you have uh so many different things that you can spend your time on so i i really appreciate you taking time to have this conversation. First of all, man, my pleasure, sincerely. And do you have any parting words, requests of the audience, anything that you'd like to convey or suggest or ask before we before we wrap up? You know, the last thing that that I might say, and it does connect to a lot of the other things we were saying is um just then we were when you were talking about how um if you want to do x go and do x if you want to learn to do something if you're considering a career for example as a musician or as a writer or an animator maybe a hit record might be a cool step. I would just talk about

Starting point is 01:52:48 the other side of the coin, which is without any goal at all, if it just feels good to you, maybe you don't want to be a professional artist of any kind. Um, but I think there's, uh, there's a lot of people out there who have that urge to make stuff that don't necessarily want to, you know, dedicate their entire life to it. Um, I think that's equally important. That's sort of a part of creative culture that in a certain way, I feel like we're we lose track of sometimes in in older times uh if you wanted to hear music well there wasn't a radio and there wasn't a gramophone if you wanted to hear music it was going to be because like your uncle happened to you know play an instrument or something and you would hear music because not not because you were listening to professionals play it or a recording of a professional playing it. You would hear your close people around you,

Starting point is 01:54:13 friends, family. That's the, you know, original meaning of folk music. And, and in fact, it's also the original meaning of pop music, popular music, popular meaning people, it's people. And, and I think that's the same, same goes for storytelling or for art of any kind, really. There's, there's something really beautiful about people who aren't necessarily trying to be the next superstar, but who have that, that creativity in them and want to, want to do stuff with it. Um, I think that's also really important to let out of you and you don't have to measure it up against well but if i put my song on the internet or my story is it going to get enough likes or is it my are they you know think that i suck who fucking cares like that's really not

Starting point is 01:55:03 that's not what's going to ultimately make you happy. That ties back to the fame question. What's going to make you happy is if you have that urge to do it. And that's kind of where HitRecord came from for me. And that's what I hope that it can continue to be for most of the people that come aren't necessarily trying to be pros there are some uh that are and uh and oftentimes those are the folks that end up leading um but uh but most people are just having a good time making stuff together and um and that I never want hit record to lose that. Um, so definitely what it's worth, I think is worth a lot. And I'm trying to pay more and more attention to what I would do

Starting point is 01:55:53 if I couldn't tell anyone or show anyone, what are those things? Or maybe it's limited to two or three friends who come over on Friday nights to have a glass of scotch and just say, Hey, what the fuck have you been up to? All right. What do I show them? Right. And that's it. That's the limit of the audience. I'm not doing market testing and that can lead some to some really beautiful places. Uh, so I'm, I'm spending more time thinking about that myself. So I appreciate the reminder. Uh, where, where can people say hello if they want to try to say hello on the interwebs on, uh, if you're on the socials, if there is anything that you'd like to put out there to the world, if people would like to wave a hand or if you can leave it a hit record.org, are there, are there any other, uh, any other places that you would like to,

Starting point is 01:56:46 to mention before we put a, put a pin in it? Yeah. If you want to make stuff together, hit records. That's kind of what it's for. Um, and,

Starting point is 01:56:55 and I am on, on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. Um, so you can check those out too. All right. I will link to the real accounts in the show notes, just so you don't have just a fan account. I don't want to have people go through 17 of those.

Starting point is 01:57:12 So for people listening, as you know, if you're a long-term listener, but if you're not, let me tell you a little bit about how the show works. We will have links to everything, including hit record.org, including the books that were mentioned, letters to a young poet, very powerful book that I recommend to everyone. As a side note, Save the Cat, which I also actually think is one of the, despite some of the cynicism and sterility of a few aspects of it, a very helpful book as a starting point

Starting point is 01:57:42 when thinking of screenwriting and also calls me on my own bullshit, meaning I've been talking about and thinking about screenwriting for so long to the extent that I have fans who are hassling me about it. And thank you for hassling me about it, everybody out there. So taking a page from this conversation on if you want to learn it, just do it. I think I have to stop reading books. I have to stop asking people for advice and just actually sit down and stare at that intimidating blank page. Right. Write a few shorts first. That's exactly. That would be my advice. I'm going to get on it. So a few shorts and Joe, thank you so much again for taking the time. This was a lot of fun and to everybody listening

Starting point is 01:58:26 until next time thank you for listening cheers hey guys this is Tim again just a few more things before you take off number one this is 5 bullet Friday do you want to get a short email from me

Starting point is 01:58:42 would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that

Starting point is 01:58:57 I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one.

Starting point is 01:59:30 And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by WordPress.com. I love WordPress. I have used it for so many years. It's my go-to platform for blogging and creating websites. I use wordpress.com for everything, every day. My site, tim.blog is built on it. The websites for my books, including Tools of Titans, Tribe of Mentors, it's all on wordpress.com. And the founder, Matt Mullenweg, one of my close friends, has appeared on this show many times. Just search Matt Mullenweg, Tequila Ferris for quite an exciting time. Whether you're looking to create a personal blog, a business site, or both, you can make a really big impact

Starting point is 02:00:10 right out of the box when you build on WordPress.com. And you'll be in good company. It's used by the New Yorker, Jay-Z, Beyonce, FiveThirtyEight, TechCrunch, TED, CNN, and Time, just to name a handful. And one of my friends at Google, she'll remain nameless, has told me that WordPress.com offers the, quote, best out-of-the-box SEO imaginable, end quote. And it's one of the many reasons that nearly 30% of the internet is run on WordPress. You do not need experience or to hire someone. That's perhaps the best part. WordPress.com guides you through the entire experience. They have hundreds of designs and templates that you can use.

Starting point is 02:00:49 And it's easy to get started. There's no need to worry about security, upgrades, hosting, any of that. They offer 24-7 support. And they're very, very responsive. If you have questions, they get right back to you. And this allows you to create the highest quality with the least amount of headache and friction. So if you're building a website, period, when my friends come to me and ask what I use,

Starting point is 02:01:11 what I recommend they use, the answer is WordPress.com. So check it out. If you want to get started today, learn more with a 15% discount off any new plan. Go to WordPress.com forward slash Tim to create your website and find the plan that's right for you. So learn more. Pick a look. WordPress.com forward slash Tim

Starting point is 02:01:31 for 15% off a brand new website. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. If you're a longtime listener of the show or brand new to the podcast, my favorite Finnish entrepreneurs who founded this company, of course, I don't know that many Finnish entrepreneurs, but they may be my favorites,

Starting point is 02:01:50 have something new that I've been loving. And some of you are familiar with Four Sigmatic. I've used their products for years now. They were introduced to me by an acrobat of all folks, and they tend to mix different types of medicinal mushrooms into their products. I have recently started using their matcha, which is a green tea, which is designed as a coffee alternative. And if you're trying to cut back on caffeine, as I am these days, the matcha is a great option. And one that I originally learned to love in Japan has a very smooth texture to it.

Starting point is 02:02:22 Their matcha blend in particular includes the amino acid L-theanine, which helps to provide a, let's call it balanced boost of energy without jitters. It also includes the adaptogen astrologus, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, which may help with overall stress tolerance. And for those of you who are wondering, no, the products don't taste like mushrooms. If they say mushroom coffee, for instance, another product that I use doesn't taste like mushrooms. It tastes like coffee, but you get the nutritional benefits of some of these special ingredients. So the products don't taste like mushrooms and are enjoyable. I offer them to my house guests and use them myself.

Starting point is 02:03:00 And I don't particularly want to drink anything that tastes like mushrooms. So, moving on. The folks at Four Sigmatic have designed a few special deals for you guys, my listeners, which include many of my favorite products of theirs. So check it out. Visit foursigmatic, F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C dot com forward slash Tim Tim, that's T-I-M-T-I-M, no space, to see these special deals, which are not offered anywhere else. Remember to use the code Tim Tim. I don't know why they chose Tim Tim, but there we go. Remember to use the code Tim Tim at checkout to receive your special discount. Again, that's foursigmatic.com forward slash Tim Tim and enter the promo code TimTIM. Check it out.

Pet Camera - EBO Air 2

The Tim Ferriss Show - #312: Joseph Gordon-Levitt — Actor, Filmmaker, and Entrepreneur

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.

Your Ad Here

Pet Camera - EBO Air 2

The Tim Ferriss Show - #312: Joseph Gordon-Levitt — Actor, Filmmaker, and Entrepreneur

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.