The Tim Ferriss Show - #346: James Cameron and Suzy Amis Cameron — How to Think Big, Start Small, and Change the World

Starting point is 00:00:00 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would have seemed the perfect time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic, founded by the genius Finns who lit the internet on fire. And you may have heard of their mushroom coffee, which features chaga and lion's mane,

Starting point is 00:00:36 which is taken Silicon Valley by storm. I use it pretty much every day, either that or the chaga, which is decaf, a separate version. And I use both of these primarily for focus and productivity. They just get you going, light you up like a Christmas tree. So you should definitely check it out. People are always asking me what I use for cognitive enhancement. And for right now, this is the answer. I try to force this on all of my house guests. It is a hell of a thing. If I have employees or people come over who are working on projects with me, I always try to feed it to them because I'm going to get the limitless effect and get a lot

Starting point is 00:01:15 more out of them. The first time I mentioned this product and Four Sigmatic on the podcast, their products sold out in less than a week. So you may want to check them out soon if you're listening to this. And the coffee tastes like coffee. It takes just seconds to prepare with hot water. And oddly enough, only includes 40 milligrams of caffeine. So it has less than half of what you'd get in a regular cup of coffee. I don't get any jitters, acid reflux, or any stomach burn, any of that. It's very unusual and very, very cool. So if you don't get any jitters, acid reflux, or any stomach burn, any of that. It's very unusual and very, very cool. So if you don't like caffeine, they also offer very strong but caffeine-free mushroom elixirs, which I will sometimes have in the evening.

Starting point is 00:01:54 I find Chaga specifically to be very, very grounding and earthy. So that is another option. And I have a cupboard full of their products at the moment, which is right around the corner of my kitchen. You can try something. You can try a sample pack, which is great also right now by going to foursigmatic.com forward slash Tim. That's foursigmatic, F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C.com forward slash Tim and use the code Tim, T-I-M to get 20% off of your first order. And they're not that expensive anyway. If you are in the experimental mindset, I do not think you'll be disappointed. So try them out.

Starting point is 00:02:31 Well, hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. And welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to tease out the habits, routines, belief systems, life lessons from people who are the best at what they do, and to hopefully give you an opportunity to test those things in your own life. In this episode, we have a power couple, in fact. But let's go back in time to around 2009 or 2010, when I was given a t-shirt. And the t-shirt was an avatar, as in the film, an Avatar staff t-shirt. And on the front was a quote. And's James Cameron, you ask? James Cameron is a filmmaker and deep sea explorer. He is writer, director, and producer of many films, including The Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss, Terminator 2, True Lies, Titanic, and Avatar. Both Titanic and

Starting point is 00:03:36 Avatar, the highest grossing film of all time, won the Golden Globe for Best Director and Best Picture and were nominated for a record number of awards. Cameron was also at the vanguard of the 3D renaissance, developing cutting-edge 3D camera systems. As an explorer in 2012, Cameron set the world's solo deep diving record of 35,787 feet in the Challenger Deep in a vehicle of his own design. He's a dedicated environmentalist, and he has founded the Avatar Alliance Foundation to take action on climate change, energy policy, deforestation, indigenous rights, ocean conservation, and sustainable agriculture. He's currently in production on Avatar 2, 3, 4, and 5. You can find him on Twitter at Jim Cameron.

Starting point is 00:04:22 Susie Amos Cameron, his wife is a noted environmental advocate, mother of five and the author of OMD, which is one meal a day. OMD subtitled the simple plant based program to save your health, save your waistline and save the planet. And the founder of the OMD movement, a multi pronged effort to transform eating habits and the food system. She's also a founder Plant Power Task Force, focused on showing the impact of animal agriculture on climate change and the environment, founded in 2012 with her husband, that is Jim, and Craig McCaw. In 2005, she founded Muse School, the first school in the country to be 100% solar powered

Starting point is 00:05:00 with zero waste and a 100% organic plant-based lunch program. Additionally, she is founder of Verdient Foods, Cameron Family Farms, and Food Forest Organics, along with Red Carpet Green Dress. As an actor, she's been featured in more than 25 films, including The Usual Suspects and Titanic. You can find her online, Facebook, Suzy A. Cameron, that's Suzy S-U-Z-Y, Twitter, Suzy Musing, and Instagram, Suzy Amos Cameron. A few housekeeping notes right up front. There are two other episodes that I'm publishing simultaneously with James and Suzy on the Tribe of Mentors podcast. I want to do an experiment and split things up a little bit for a whole host of reasons. In the shorter episode that you'll find on the Tribe of

Starting point is 00:05:52 Mentors podcast, I include their answers to some of my common questions, including what is bad advice you often hear in your areas of expertise or in your industry. And I'll give you a teaser for that. Do what you love is one of the answers that is elaborated on. Favorite books, books that have been most gifted to others, and then favorite failures. So failures they have learned the most from. And the second episode, which is going to be on the Tribe Mentors podcast, is the full audio. Also not to be missed, there's a bonus in text. So James mentions in the full audio that unlike on previous films, he did not get sick during the simultaneous filming slash production of Avatar 2 and 3, which is astonishing considering as he put it, that quote, they meaning all staff

Starting point is 00:06:41 know coming in when they sign up that it's going to be the most difficult production in human history, end quote. So how did he do it? He credits his stamina and health during that period to his new routine, including plant-based diet, supplements, exercise, and so on. So I asked him for a concrete daily calendar with exact food, supplements, times, and so on, which he provided. So you can find James' super dialed-in daily routine for Avatar 2 and 3 at tim.blog.com. That's tim.blog.com. All right, so some of you who are long-term listeners have no doubt heard multiple guests on to discuss the ketogenic diet, to discuss alternate approaches to food and health. And I thought that this episode would be a good opportunity to give some airtime

Starting point is 00:07:32 to discussion of plant-based diets. And it should also be underscored that there are chapters in The 4-Hour Body, two of them, with the legendary ultra-endurance athlete Scott Jurek about plant-based diets. And even if you disagree with perhaps plant-based diets or any of the arguments you might hear from Susie and James, I'd suggest listening for at least three reasons. Number one, there's plenty of non-plant talk, and we jump right into it with discussion of how they both respond to feeling overwhelmed or distracted. The second is patience. In this podcast, I do my best to, in a gentle way, sometimes not so gentle, but often a gentle way, expose people to different viewpoints, different perspectives in the world, which is why I have on very often, for instance, someone who's highly religious, like Rabbi Jonathan Sachs. And then I will have just a few episodes later, someone like Sam Harris, who is PhD in neuroscience and very well

Starting point is 00:08:36 known for being an atheist. I might have someone who is far left, and then someone who is far right, because I like to focus on some of the commonalities and also the thought processes. The only way you can understand your argument, your position best, is to also understand the opposing viewpoints. All right, so that's number two. This is an exercise in patience, especially in these divisive times. I think it is a worthwhile exercise. And third, OMD, one meal per day that is plant-based. I would recommend, even if you don't plan on converting to fully plant-based, as a consciousness practice and an exercise, which is something I very often do. I will impose certain constraints on my eating, eliminate a certain food product, or I will insist that I eat based on a spectrum of color as a way to make my

Starting point is 00:09:26 subconscious or automatic behaviors, i.e. eating, more conscious so that I'm more aware of what I am doing and the decisions I am making. So those are a few of the many reasons I would suggest listening to this. And without further ado, let's just jump right into it with Susie and James Cameron. Well, hello, baby. Well, Tim, first of all, we want to say hi. And when we first met you, we were all flying around in the parabolic flight with... Well, Elon Musk and a bunch of other crazy folks. Yeah, so that was...

Starting point is 00:10:08 Doing somersaults in zero-g. Super fun. Super fun. So, hey, Tim. Thanks for having us on the show. We're honored to be here. Yeah, really, really excited. On the podcast, I guess. Do you still call a podcast a show? I guess you can. Yeah. The Tim Ferriss Show. Oh, well, then I guess if it's called the Tim Ferriss Show, then it's call a podcast a show? I guess you can. Yeah. The Tim Ferriss Show. Oh, well, then I guess if it's called the Tim Ferriss Show, then it's got to be a show.

Starting point is 00:10:32 When you feel overwhelmed or unfocused or have lost your focus temporarily, what do you do? If helpful, what questions do you ask yourself? So what do I do when I feel overwhelmed? Ah! I clean off my desk. I'm working at a high pace. Everything piles up. And just the act of cleaning off my desk is like a reset.

Starting point is 00:10:59 It's like power cycling a computer. It's a reboot. And I usually find that about half the stuff that's accumulated I can throw out. And the other half I have to put in piles. I have to put them in the right place. So now I'm prioritizing. Now I'm thinking, oh, well, that's still important. So I think that if you're a team leader, you've got to get your own priorities straight before you can generate priorities for the team.

Starting point is 00:11:24 And I've found that whenever I hit one of those moments, I also find it's great to take a day off or even half a day off. Just force yourself to take a day off, not to go play, but to just reorganize and just kind of write down the series of priorities or kind of memos to yourself. And out of that, I typically will generate things that I hand out to my team to give them their marching orders to kind of get us back on track. And it's amazing how things just pop into focus and solutions present themselves because I haven't stopped running. I haven't gotten off the treadmill until that moment to lift my head out of the day-to-day battle to think about how are we going to really win this war.

Starting point is 00:12:11 Something like a big film production is like a campaign that takes place over sometimes a period of years. And if you don't take a moment out to kind of look at the big picture. So most of the major strategic decisions that I've made during the productions of the two Avatar films so far over the last couple of years have come from that down day, that catch-up day. It's not about taking a day off, taking a nap. That's a good idea too. And, you know, go swim or play with the kids or whatever. You've got to do that too. But just take a day for yourself with no distractions to just get everything in order. That helps me a lot. If nothing else, I just feel better about it.

Starting point is 00:12:50 Right. I come in, there's a clean desk. Here's some memos. You guys go do the work. Well, I think we're really similar on that. I mean, I have a tendency to walk through the house and get ridiculously overwhelmed with all the kids and the cats and the dogs and the bearded dragon and the people. So I always like to go in and just reorganize the house, but I always start with my office as well. And I like to take a big piece of typing paper and write out, you know, I create columns, and I write out all my emails that I need to do and all my calls that I need to do. And then there's a whole section in there just for

Starting point is 00:13:30 household things and work things and all of those. And, you know, I know that the children are learning this as well because when they, you know, of course they roll their eyes when I walk in and say, okay, we're going to take a clean day, an organizing day, and here's some boxes for giveaways. They roll their eyes, but in the end they love it and they feel better. And they get into it. And they get into it. So it's the same sort of thing. And taking a walk and then realizing like, okay, what is the first thing I can do that's going to get me on that journey towards my goal? But always keeping that goal in mind of whatever that is.

Starting point is 00:14:14 You know, sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to walk away from it for a second. It's counterintuitive for us type A types that just bash our heads against the problem all day long. Boom, boom, boom, boom. We're AAA. Day after day. You know, I had an epiphany while I was writing Avatar. I was working down in New Zealand and office was kind of in the country. And, you know, it was just impossible to solve some of the dramatic problems. I just couldn't, I couldn't solve it. I couldn't fix the script. And I was sitting, I just walked away. I sat down, sat outside, and there was a glass cover to the veranda.

Starting point is 00:14:49 And I watched this big fly, and he was trying to get out, and he was banging against the glass. And he just kept hitting the glass over and over and over and over because that's how his little chip was programmed. You go toward the light. You go toward the sky. And he couldn't get to the sky. All he had to do was drop down, fly three feet sideways and come out, but he couldn't process it. And I thought, how often am I that fly? How often is there some higher level of perspective that I lack in my chip that I'm missing that is so simple that some fourth-dimensional being could look at the problem and go, oh, you idiot. You just dropped down. Go over three feet and you're

Starting point is 00:15:31 out. But the fly couldn't do it. And I thought, what am I not seeing? And that's when I went back to first principles. And I looked at the whole thing from a higher level. I got out of the trenches for that moment. And that's how I solved the problem. Yeah. I think also, too, is learning when to recognize when you're hitting that window and also learning to recognize when it's the path of least resistance because you know you're on the right path when doors just continue to open. Well, that's true. That's the opposite. That's the other thing that's important to recognize when things are breaking your way. When you have momentum, when you're not hitting the glass,

Starting point is 00:16:16 you take advantage of it. And you ride that tailwind. But there's a difference too. It's when you know you want to do something and you feel really strongly about it and you have a lot of people around you saying no and you shouldn't do it and it's going to be too hard. And that, I mean, I know it works for you that way, but I mean, that just lights an inferno under my butt. It's like, OK, really? No? Watch me. Yeah, I love to say that to my team on Avatar. Oh, well, we shouldn't do that, guys, because that's going to be hard.

Starting point is 00:16:47 Exactly. When they know coming in when they sign up that it's going to be the most difficult production in human history just by its nature. blade of grass in the entire world that we're creating is done, is created by somebody, by a computer artist or by some kind of algorithm that's self-growing or whatever, you know by definition it's going to be hard. You're there because it's hard. You're doing it because it's hard, you know, because that's how you measure yourself against that challenge. And that's why everybody that's on the Avatar team is there.

Starting point is 00:17:28 Because they know it's going to be the hardest motherfucker they ever work on. And they want that. Now, they'll all go whine about it later and say, that was the hardest motherfucker I ever worked on. And that's why I have this reputation as a cruel taskmaster. But in fact, they've all showed up because they want to do that. They want to climb that mountain. And they've learned from it. I mean, that's how, like, the teachers at Muse. They're teaching in a way they've all showed up because they want to do that. They want to climb that mountain. And they've learned from it. I mean, that's how, like, the teachers at MUSE, they're teaching in a way they've never, nobody teaches that way.

Starting point is 00:17:50 And it's really challenging. But they learn. Yeah, the kids don't like holidays because they don't get to go to school. If you could have one gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it, metaphorically speaking, getting a message out to millions or billions, what would it say and why? Could be a few words or a paragraph. If helpful, it can be someone else's quote. Are there any quotes you can think of or live your life by? Yeah, I'm terrible with quotes and that sort of thing. But I think I would sum up philosophically what I would ask people to do, which is to live in a more connected way, to see yourself as part of a

Starting point is 00:18:36 big global system and know that every action you take has a consequence. Every choice you make as a consumer, whether it's using plastics or using electricity or replacing that iPhone that's only six months old because there's a better one, that that has an impact on somebody somewhere or some animal somewhere or some ecosystem somewhere that, you know, when I look at the history of the human race up until now, and this all doesn't go on the billboard, by the way, I want to try to condense this down. But I look at the history up till now, we've been all about expansion. It's an endless hunger to conquer and expand. And we've filled the planet. We're like a bacterial culture that rapidly expands to the edge of the Petri dish. Well, we're hitting the edge of the Petri dish now. And so everything that always worked throughout human history is not going to work going forward. We're going to have to have some fundamental change in the way we think. We're going to have to stop being takers and start being

Starting point is 00:19:46 caretakers or we won't survive. It's that simple. Now, maybe it's 50 years, maybe it's 100 years, maybe it's 200 years, but it's not going to go on the way it's been going on and we're going to have to change. And I think it's a change for the better. It's a change that's more empathic. It's more compassionate. So I guess I would say stop being a taker or take less and caretake more. And I mean that very generally as well. Think about how decisions that you make and things you do are affecting people in other countries. You know, all those people that are coming up in that big caravan, a lot of them have been displaced by drought. Their farms have collapsed and they can't grow their food.

Starting point is 00:20:31 It's not just about drug violence and all that sort of thing. Especially in Guatemala, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people on the move from farms that have collapsed due to unprecedented drought. That's drier conditions than they've ever had in recorded history and the ability of science to look back hundreds of thousands of years, well, that's climate change at work. And if that particular series of droughts is not caused specifically by climate change, it's a pretty damn good bellwether for what it's going to look like when hundreds of thousands and then ultimately hundreds of millions of people are on the move because of climate change. So the choices that we're making in our energy consumption, in our consumption of natural resources, in our consumption of foods is impacting other people in other parts of the world will eventually come back to haunt us with the kinds of political systems that are now taking over all over the world. These protectionist, isolationist, nationalistic, hyper-nationalistic, populist systems that are about closing borders and shutting down and all that sort of thing. I see it all interlinked and I see it all as a feedback loop that's just going to get

Starting point is 00:21:45 worse and worse. So I would say we have to change this from the inside out, from the way we view the world and our place in it. And so, yeah, stop being a taker, start being a caretaker. Right. That's my billboard. When you're talking about the timeline, the United Nations just came out a couple of weeks ago with a report from the IPCC saying that we say, no matter what you're doing, realize that it's going to affect the next seven generations. So just being really conscious in your everyday actions and tread lightly on the earth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, we all struggle to do it.

Starting point is 00:22:53 And we don't want to come off as holier than thou. That's the thing about vegans in general is they're all such assholes. Tell your joke. Okay. How many vegans does it take to screw in a light bulb? Doesn't matter. They're all such, you know, assholes. Tell your joke. Okay. How many vegans does it take to screw in a light bulb? Doesn't matter. We're better than you.

Starting point is 00:23:10 Right. Right. So, you know, so the problem is people tend to reject what, you know, what we could tell them. Right. But, you know, I think the answer to that is say, oh, don't take our word for it. Read the books. It's all online. The problem is that people tend to entrench around their belief systems.

Starting point is 00:23:31 And now with digital news the way it is, we can preselect the inputs. We can preselect our inputs to support only what we already believe. And so everybody lives in these kind of isolated echo chambers, you know, and it's all exacerbated by social media and so on. And so it's really going to be another thing that we're going to have to just get a whole lot better at as a species and as a society is checking our facts and looking at alternative opinions and especially look at the facts that the other guys have, if they have any. Yeah. See, I just did a little confirmation bias swerve at the end there.

Starting point is 00:24:17 Yeah, if they have any. We're going to need you to. Yeah, right. Exactly. All right. So next question. What are you currently most excited about? All right.

Starting point is 00:24:33 I'm not going to talk about plant-based nutrition. Okay. Other than to say for one second that I was pretty hopeless about being able to get a handle on climate change just looking at it from an energy perspective and transportation and all that. And when I realized the environmental connection from eating plant-based, I got excited about that. But that's kind of old news because that's six years ago for us. I guess right now I'm excited about the Avatar films.

Starting point is 00:25:01 I have the coolest job in the world. I get to go in and create a world, an ecosystem populated with creatures and cool characters and do that all day long and live in that fantasy world. So yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. Yeah. So just to piggyback on feeling hopeful, because I am going to talk about plant-based eating. Jim actually has a t-shirt and one of the lines on it says, hope is not a strategy. And he's a doomsday kind of guy. If you watch his movies, they're kind of like the end of the world, apocalyptic. And he never used the word hope. And six and a half years ago, we were walking on the beach, and he said to me, for the first time in my life, I feel hopeful.

Starting point is 00:25:51 And needless to say, I almost, you know, fell into the surf. But it's planted a seed, you know, that the more people we can inspire to eat plant-based, the more we can move the needle on climate change. And it was that seed that was planted that made me think about creating content and writing a book. And I'm most excited about the book. About your book. About my book. You get to be excited about your book. So it's OMD, Changing One Meal a Day for the Planet.

Starting point is 00:26:23 And it starts out with the education of the health. I worked with a brain trust of doctors. So it's very, very heavily researched in the medical field around plant-based eating. And then I worked with people from Chatham House and Oxford University in Loma Linda, climate scientists, to help me with the environmental impacts of animal agriculture. And then it's a guide. It's a guide of how to do one meal a day or two meals a day or blow up your kitchen like Jim and I did and go cold turkey. It has recipes, shopping lists, meal plans.

Starting point is 00:27:03 And I'll hold your hand. I won't judge you. It's not about being perfect. You can keep your burger if you want to. It's just about one meal a day. OMD. All right. So I think there's one more question. There is one more question. If you had a request, an ask, or suggestion for the listeners of this podcast, what would it be? Oh, I think people that listen to Tim and his guests are looking for hacks to make their life better, to learn how to live in this perplexing world and live better and kind of be smarter. So I think that, you know, I would just say, read a lot, check your facts, and, you know, don't follow us because we're so sweet and compelling. Check the facts. Just the facts, man. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's all out there. But I would say also take the – be willing to look outside your confirmation bias bubble. And I – look, I force and challenge myself to do this all the time, to get outside that bubble.

Starting point is 00:28:18 And so whatever your beliefs are, ask yourself, one, where they came from? When did you double down on that? And what have you done to look at it sort of from an objective point of view? And I try to do that as much as possible. When something comes along that I don't understand, that doesn't fit my belief system, like let me just give an example, like Alan Savory's approach with, you know, grass-fed beef and all the claims that were made around that. I looked into it and I thought, wow, maybe there's something here. And I went pretty far down the rabbit hole on that before and looked at the science on both sides of it and ultimately saw that it wasn't the right answer. But I didn't just reject it out of hand because it didn't fit my belief system.

Starting point is 00:29:10 Right. Well, I think my ask would be to take the OMD pledge. There you go. And pledge one meal a day or two meals a day or go all in because it'll help your health. It'll help the planet. It'll help the animals, your waistline, and your sex life. Yes. Yes. Not necessarily in that order. Anyway, thanks, Tim. Yeah, thanks, Tim. This was really fun, and thanks for having us on. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Hey, guys. this is Tim again.

Starting point is 00:29:46 Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of

Starting point is 00:30:14 weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic, founded by the genius Finns who lit the internet on fire. And you may have heard of their mushroom coffee, which features chaga and lion's mane, which is taken Silicon Valley by storm.

Starting point is 00:31:01 I use it pretty much every day, either that or the Chaga, which is decaf, a separate version. And I use both of these primarily for focus and productivity. They just get you going, light you up like a Christmas tree. So you should definitely check it out. People are always asking me what I use for cognitive enhancement. And for right now, this is the answer. I try to force this on all of my house guests. It is a hell of a thing. If I have employees or people come over who are working on projects with me, I always try to feed it to them because I'm going to get the

Starting point is 00:31:36 limitless effect, get a lot more out of them. The first time I mentioned this product and Four Sigmatic on the podcast, Their products sold out in less than a week. So you may want to check them out soon if you're listening to this. And the coffee tastes like coffee. It takes just seconds to prepare with hot water. And oddly enough, only includes 40 milligrams of caffeine. So it has less than half of what you'd get in a regular cup of coffee. I don't get any jitters, acid reflux or any stomach burn, any of that. It's very unusual and very, very cool. So if you don't like caffeine, they also offer very strong but caffeine-free mushroom elixirs, which I will sometimes have in the evening. I find Chaga specifically to be very, very grounding and

Starting point is 00:32:20 earthy. So that is another option. And I have a cupboard full of their products at the moment, which is right around the corner of my kitchen. You can try something. You can try sample pack, which is great also right now by going to foursigmatic.com forward slash Tim. That's foursigmatic, F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C.com forward slash Tim and use the code Tim, T-I-M to get 20% off of your first order. And they're not that expensive anyway. If you are in the experimental mindset, I do not think you'll be disappointed. So try them out.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #346: James Cameron and Suzy Amis Cameron — How to Think Big, Start Small, and Change the World

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #346: James Cameron and Suzy Amis Cameron — How to Think Big, Start Small, and Change the World

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