The Tim Ferriss Show - #388: Lisa Ling — Exploring Subcultures, Learning to Feel, and Changing Perception

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Starting point is 00:02:37 This episode is brought to you by Business Wars. What's that? It's a podcast. People always ask me what podcast I listen to. And the truth is, I don't listen to that many, just a handful, because most of my bandwidth is taken up with producing my own podcast. One exception, in other words, one that makes the cut is Business Wars from the podcast network Wondery. Of course, human history has thousands upon thousands of epic wars, and that has existed forever. But some notable wars are waged between businesses, whether between gigantic corporations or between tiny, tiny startups and large incumbents, David and Goliath situations. And business wars, which I've been listening to, just listened to it this morning, in fact,

Starting point is 00:03:22 on my ride to downtown Austin, takes you right into the middle of these battles. Sometimes the prize for these competitors is your wallet or your attention. Sometimes it's just the fun of beating the other guy. The outcomes of these battles shape how we live, what we buy, and often what we think. I've listened to previous episodes and previous seasons. So for instance, I have listened to Netflix versus Blockbuster. It was amazing. Nike versus Adidas, also incredible. But there are also smaller businesses and many different types of folks profiled. The sound design is incredible. I didn't think it would matter to me, but it really does. And the newest season, which I've been listening to, is about the WWEs. That's the World Wrestling Entertainment's long road to success in battles with the WCW. And just as one surprise, did you

Starting point is 00:04:18 know that the World Wrestling Federation, now the WWE, started as just one of 30 regional wrestling associations. And the first episode, so this is WWF versus WCW, Titan Rising, and a lot of strategy comes out of this. A lot can be learned about how to do battle in business. But here's the description. It's the early 1980s, and there's peace in the wrestling business. For years, regional wrestling companies have maintained order by sticking to their own slices of US and Canadian territory, but all that's about to change. Vince McMahon has just taken over the WWF and he wants war. He's on a mission to crush all opposition and establish the WWF as the only wrestling game in town, but his assault on the wrestling status quo will also make him a powerful enemy. Cable TV mogul Ted Turner. I had no idea about this

Starting point is 00:05:07 backstory. And it's great. So definitely check it out. It's hosted by David Brown, a former anchor of Marketplace, who's really fantastic. So David, if you're listening, nicely done. Might ping you about future audiobooks. And it is an immersive sound design experience. You'll see what I mean when you check it out. That shares the untold and very real stories of what went on behind the scenes with, now broadly speaking, the leaders, executives, and investors and what led them to new heights

Starting point is 00:05:33 or to ruin or sometimes somewhere in between. You can find Business Wars on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this episode right now or head to wondery.fm slash Tim. That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y dot F-M slash Tim, T-I-M. That's where you can find Business Wars. It's a great show. I suggest starting with the latest series. It's really good, even if you don't care about wrestling whatsoever. I mean, as a child of the 80s, it was always somewhere in the culture for me. But it's great also as a sort of business

Starting point is 00:06:06 strategy, tactic, art of war type of discussion. Latest series, WWF versus WCW. It's a pretty epic one filled with all the colorful cast of characters you would expect. Hulk Hogan, there's some amazing archival audio of TV shows that Hulk Hogan appeared on. I actually choked one anchor unconscious accidentally. It's a pretty fucking crazy story. Pardon my French. Stone Cold, Steve Austin, and many others. So check it out, wondery.fm slash Tim. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct, at least attempt to deconstruct, through interviewing world-class performers, their habits, routines, lessons learned, etc. And my guest today is none

Starting point is 00:06:54 other than Lisa Ling. Who is Lisa Ling? Award-winning journalist Lisa Ling is the host and executive producer of the CNN original series This Is Life with Lisa Ling, which is currently in its sixth season. And you can find that, at least this season, premiering on September 29th. That is a Sunday at 10pm Eastern and Pacific. This is life. In each episode, Ling immerses herself in communities across America, giving viewers an inside look at some of the most unconventional segments of society. In 2017, the series won a Gracie Award. Ling is also host of the CNN digital series, This is Sex with Lisa Ling, which explores the taboos around sex in America. And this is Birth with Lisa Ling, which explores how healthcare legislation, income equality, and cultural shifts shape how people have children in America. She has a very illustrious career. We're going to

Starting point is 00:07:44 talk about it in the course of our conversation. But suffice to say, from the Oprah Winfrey Show to Nightline to National Geographic's Explorer, she's reported from dozens of countries covering stories about all manner of things, including many topics that are neglected or ignored in mainstream media. Gang rape in the Congo, bride burning in India, and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, just as a few examples. And we talk about the sort of emotional toll that that can take and many of the complexities of covering some of these extremely difficult topics. Lynn got her start in journalism as a correspondent for Channel One News, where she covered the civil war in Afghanistan at 21 years of age, another experience we will talk about. She later went on to become a co-host of ABC's daytime hit show,

Starting point is 00:08:29 The View, which won its first daytime Emmy during her time at the show. She also served as a special correspondent for CNN's Planet in Peril series and is a contributing editor for USA Today's USA Weekend magazine. In 2011, her acclaimed documentary journalism series, Our America with Lisa Ling, began airing on OWN. She's also an author. She has co-authored Mother Daughter, Sister Bride, Rituals of Womanhood, and Somewhere Inside, One Sister's Captivity in North America and the Others Fight to Bring Her Home, which she penned with her sister, Laura. In 2014, President Obama named Ling to the Commission on White House Fellows. You can find her on Twitter at Lisa Ling, on Facebook, facebook.com slash Ling. And without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation

Starting point is 00:09:17 with Lisa Ling. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Lisa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. And this has been in the works for a while. So I'm very pleased to finally be having this conversation. And we have a lot to cover or certainly many questions that I would love to ask. So I'll start with age 21, Afghanistan. Was that your first time in Afghanistan? That definitely was. Yeah, I was 21. And never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that I would go to a place like Afghanistan at that age or ever. But it was certainly, as you can probably imagine, one of the most eye-opening things that I've ever experienced to this day. And did you, at say, the end of high school, think that that type of correspondent work is

Starting point is 00:10:14 what you'd be doing? Or did you have other thoughts in your mind for what you were going to be post-graduation? You know, when I was a kid, we didn't grow up with a lot of money. And I've always been an insatiably curious person, even as a young kid. But I really didn't have the opportunity to travel that much. And so when I was 18, I was hired to report for a show called Channel One News, which was a show that was seen in schools across the country. In fact, Anderson Cooper was one of my colleagues. And they sent us off into the world to cover far-flung stories in distant locations. And one day there was talk amongst some of the executives about sending a correspondent to cover the civil war in a country that at the time I couldn't even

Starting point is 00:11:05 identify on a map, and it was Afghanistan. And I agreed to go because we'd be going in with the Red Cross. And so the likelihood of something happening while with the Red Cross would be far less than had I not gone in with them. So I agreed. And from the moment I set foot in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, I just, you know, realized I was very, very, very far from home. What was, say, the first 48 or 72 hours of that experience like for you? I mean, as a 21-year-old, you're still very malleable. I mean, your personality is certainly developed to some extent, but at that early kind of nascent point in your professional life, what were the first few days there like for you? Well, I had never, I'd barely traveled by the time I was 21. And so as cliche as this sounds, I felt like I was on another planet. Afghanistan at the time had, I mean, it was really like a country that had been

Starting point is 00:12:14 just completely destroyed. It was in rubble, really. There were bullet holes and craters everywhere. Not a single wall stood that wasn't riddled with bullet holes because when I was there in the early 90s, it was in the midst of a civil war. and the Soviet Union, during which time my country, the United States, pumped billions of dollars worth of weaponry into the hands of the Afghans to fight our then enemy, the Soviet Union. And so here I was, you know, in a place that my country had a major, major role in. It had a role in everything that I was seeing around me. So many of the young boys that I was looking at were carrying American-made weapons because they were paid for by the United States. But yet, I knew that back home, no one had any clue that this scene existed in the world. So it was just surreal. I mean, I kept closing my eyes and opening my eyes and just going, where the fuck am I? And how did I end up here? I mean, honestly, because it was just, you know, the furthest place on earth that I could have ever imagined. You have since covered so many different topics, subcultures, problems, and more. I mean, the Venn diagram, if I were to

Starting point is 00:13:47 try to draw it out, would be really remarkable. And the question that has come to my mind so many times, and this is true also after spending time with people like Sebastian Junger, for instance, how have you handled, after covering, say, gang rape in the Congo, bride burning in India, and so on, the emotional toll of some of these subjects? I mean, are there any stories that you can share about contending with that? Because I would have to imagine that it hasn't all been easy to digest. Yeah, I mean, I definitely have been witness to some of the worst aspects of humanity. I mean, covering a story about gang rape in the Congo, what you mentioned, covering stories about bride burning in India, stories about child trafficking, and just really devastating and horrifying aspects of humanity.

Starting point is 00:14:53 And I don't always handle it well. You know, I am lucky that I'm not out there on my own covering these kinds of stories. I'm always with a team. And when we are out in the field, we are truly living the story. Every second of the day is consumed by the story. And I meet people and people share with me on so many occasions things that they haven't even shared with their closest friends or family members. And so as a result, you can't help but build a bond and develop a relationship with these people. And I try to give everyone that I meet my cell phone or that I profile my cell phone, because again, like they've just shared, you know, the depths of their heart with me. I would be remiss if I

Starting point is 00:15:42 were to just say, okay, thanks for sharing. Bye. You know, like I, we just shared something really powerful. And so staying in touch with people has really helped me. I mean, I've gotten, you know, fairly decent at compartmentalizing. Like, you know, my work is my work and I'm deeply, deeply passionate about it. But it sort of exists for me in one part of my heart and my brain, and then my family and my life are another part. Do they ever get fused? Absolutely, all the time. And my husband, my family, they know that sometimes I just need some space to just decompress and process. But what keeps me going, honestly, is just knowing that bringing a lot of these stories to light will raise consciousness among ordinary people who may feel compelled to do something about it,

Starting point is 00:16:40 or just become more aware of these issues on their own. So I have a few follow-up questions. The first is, do you have any stories of becoming enmeshed with some of these subjects and people who have suffered when you provide, say, your cell phone, which is a very human and humane thing to do, simultaneously, it opens up the door to, I would imagine, all sorts of potential complexity. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've gotten calls from drug addicts at all hours of the night. I've gotten calls from prison, many, many calls from prison. And there is a risk. There was an inmate that, and this wasn't someone I gave my cell phone number to, but we had this really personal exchange while I was interviewing him. And I mean, it was really like, he really revealed so much about his life and what propelled him to, you know, become the man that he

Starting point is 00:17:54 became and do what he did. And so he started writing to me and I would write back to him. And after a while, you know, I just, you know, life took over and it became increasingly more difficult to keep up our pen pal relationship. And so one day I get a letter in the mail and he's threatening me with violence because I hadn't written to him in a long time. And that was certainly a moment. I mean, and it wasn't just like, I'm going to kill you. It was like a really, really terrifying thing that he said. And I thought about reporting it, but I didn't. And subsequently, a couple of months later, he wrote me another letter apologizing profusely. But it was one of those moments where I thought, you know, maybe this wasn't such a good idea to maintain this relationship. I mean, that was, you know, the only, that was the only time something like that happened. For the most part,

Starting point is 00:18:58 I get asked for money from time to time, particularly from people who are abusing drugs, or I get asked to help in different ways. And I try to do what I can, and I tell people that I will do what I can, but I also make it clear that I can only do so much. That sounds very difficult. I mean, what do you say to, say, a drug addict who's asking for money, who perhaps you've helped, which might in its own way set a precedent or an expectation? What do you say to someone who's asking for something like that, that you can't continue to provide? Well, look, Tim, I mean, I've bought a lot of bus tickets for people. And I am, though, very open now. And I did learn the hard way because,

Starting point is 00:19:59 you know, one of the guys that I was buying bus tickets for, I found out later on that he was continuing to use. And so now I will say to people, look, just to make things clear, I'm not going to give you money. I'm never going to give you money because I don't know really what you're going to do with it. But if I can help you in any way, if I can direct you to resources, I will do everything I can to try to do so. And I really do. I mean, again, I do take responsibility for these relationships and they're important to me and they're personal for me. And I really do care about these people because of this thing that they shared with me and that we shared together. But I do have to be very careful because when it comes to money, I realize, especially when someone is under the influence, that I can be very easily taken advantage of. Yeah. It's a balancing act, or it would seem to be. And I remember at one point befriending this homeless man in San Francisco where I used to live.

Starting point is 00:21:07 And at one point paid him to give me a tour of the sort of homeless economy and the homeless underground in San Francisco. And he was entirely coherent. It was actually a fascinating and really eye-opening experience. And I mean, the homeless situation in San Francisco is absolutely terrible for many reasons. And later, not that much later, something like 72 hours later, he had my cell phone and had a complete psychotic break and was just making no sense whatsoever. And it was really gut-wrenching because he seemed to go from periods of lucidity to complete detachment from reality, and I was very unsure of how to even approach helping someone like this, which may be beyond the scope of our conversation.

Starting point is 00:21:59 Well, but it puts in perspective for me always the work that social workers do. I mean, they are on the front lines of all of this stuff, right? And they also, in many cases, become deeply entwined with people. And I think the difference between people like you and me is while we may establish relationships, we don't really know how to deal with, you know, people who are in the throes of addiction or who are mentally ill, you know. Definitely. As much as you want to try and help people, there certainly are risks that need to be taken seriously as well.

Starting point is 00:22:39 So let's talk about personal risks and you mentioned decompressing and processing earlier. Could you speak to perhaps a particularly challenging experience? It doesn't have to be related to the television work, but it certainly could be. And how you processed and metabolized something that was very difficult. Because it seems like there have to be instances where as much as you can compartmentalize, you can't unsee things or unhear things that come into your perceptive field. And how do you metabolize, say, some of

Starting point is 00:23:24 the more difficult experiences? Years ago, I interviewed a 17-year-old girl named Ashley who was sold into the world of commercial sexual exploitation when she was like 11 years old. She was basically sold by a cousin to be a prostitute. And I remember, you know, we were, I had an all-male team and I asked them all to sit outside so that she and I could have a more candid conversation. We were in a bedroom. So, the only man in the room was our cameraman and the two of us. And as she was recounting her story, I remember her telling me about how at 11 years old, she would on a regular basis call the police and beg them to arrest her so that she could have a safe place to sleep. And Tim, it was just like, it was so gut-wrenching the way she was

Starting point is 00:24:26 telling the story. And from outside of the room, I could hear my male colleagues going, like, starting to cry. And then I just totally lost it. And she ended up having to console me because I had just been so overwhelmed with grief. And after that interview, my team and I, we just kind of like huddled together and just, we all cried together. Again, like this is five men and me, and we just had to let it out. It was just so devastating. And, you know, I mentioned earlier that having these teams who are with you along the way has really been my salvation. Because if I were alone doing this, I don't know that I would have been able to survive all these years because it is so emotionally taxing. But having these people by my side, and really my team consists of the most sensitive,

Starting point is 00:25:35 incredible people, men and women, has been what has gotten me through all of it. And hopefully I've been able to help them get through it as well. But it just makes you realize like how much people are hurting out there, how deep and dark people's worlds are. Which by the way, is why I'm so excited about all the work that you're doing in psychedelic research, because I think that it's just, um, to, to ignore this possible pathway to recovery, um, from, from trauma and grief would be just a colossal mistake given how much people are hurting.

Starting point is 00:26:15 Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. There's a, there's a tremendous amount of pain out there and it's part of the reason that I'm also so respectful and encouraging of the incredible work that you do, is that you're sharing stories that, at the very least, help a not-so-small subset of the population to know that they are not alone in the type of suffering that either they've experienced or that they have felt because loved ones have suffered. And I think that's a very, very important ingredient in any recipe that will begin to resolve or mitigate some of these, whether it's atrocities or just simply conditions that are debilitating. Yeah. And to be honest with you, what I really hope that people will do when they watch my work, any of my shows, is just to feel something. You know, I think we have become this culture that doesn't want to feel and it's really easy for doctors when we're going through things that are hard to say, well, here's a pill to take. You know, heart sick or feeling glee, like recognizing what it's like to feel.

Starting point is 00:28:03 It just makes me feel more alive. My senses are heightened, and I feel grateful that I'm able to have this kind of experience, irrespective of the feelings that are generated. And unfortunately, we're afraid of feeling, and I think that it's becoming increasingly dangerous. And so, you know, I hope that people, when they come and see my work, they will be prepared and ready to feel. But I also hope that they will come with an open mind because we will often profile or immerse ourselves among people that you would otherwise never get a chance to get to know or you might not want to get to know. But hopefully, we will give you an opportunity to know people who are different from you and develop a better understanding of our fellow humans. It's a fantastic objective. And I think also it's important to note that most of the important conversations that need to be had are not going to be comfortable.

Starting point is 00:29:10 Right. And I'd like to ask a follow-up related to feeling. And in the process of doing research for this conversation, I read, and feel free to fact check this because you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but I had read that your family was not particularly communicative as it related to sex or dating or emotions. And specifically, I'm interested in that last part because many people listening, even perhaps someone talking like me, comes from a family where there were certain things that were off limits, or there were certain things that just weren't discussed. And perhaps feelings and emotions were in that category. If that was true, when you're growing up, how did you train yourself to feel or to discuss emotions more openly?

Starting point is 00:30:09 It's a great question. I come from a pretty traditional Asian family, and most people probably have a pretty decent sense that Asian culture is just not the most communicative. And on top of that, my parents got divorced when I was seven years old. And I grew up mostly with my dad who worked all the time. And so I always felt very conflicted about my identity. I didn't like being Asian because I was in a community that was totally non-diverse. I felt a lot of resentment toward my parents because they weren't active in the way that my friends' families were. And so in my late teens, early 20s, I decided that I needed to get help because I just, I had all this stuff kind of percolating in my body, right? In my soul, in my heart, but I couldn't identify exactly what I was feeling.

Starting point is 00:31:14 I didn't really even know what feelings were. And so I started working really hard with a therapist and just talking. And that therapist started asking me about my relationship with my mom and my dad. And to tell you the truth, I didn't know anything about my parents' backstory because we didn't talk about it. And so when I took the initiative to try and learn about my mom in particular because we didn't have much of a relationship when I was a kid, I just became astounded by her backstory. I ended up taking her to Taiwan, back to where she grew up. And it was a really painful experience because she

Starting point is 00:31:55 did not have a good childhood. I mean, it was very, very dark, the things that she experienced. But it allowed me to know her. And all of that resentment that I felt for her just disappeared. Because it was almost like I was looking at this little girl and what she had to deal with as a little girl. And it made my issues just seem so trivial, even though they weren't, but they compared to what she went through. And I think that really propelled me to want to understand people better. Because at the end of the day, Tim, you know, we all are human beings, right? We were all born of parents who loved us. We were all born of a mother at one time, right? And we're learning so much about

Starting point is 00:32:47 when kids experience any kind of trauma between the ages of one and 17, when their brains are developing the fastest. Well, if you don't address that trauma, if you don't deal with it, then it can go on to haunt you for the rest of your life and emerge in ways and get triggered in ways that you might never expect. And for me, I just, after that experience, I started to really try and dig deep. And it made me a better person. It made me a better reporter. It made me, I mean, I've always been a curious person, but I think it really kind of ignited this empathy thing. Because I just, I start thinking about everyone as like a little boy, you know? And in so many cases, when I interview people, I ask them to

Starting point is 00:33:43 go back to when they were seven or eight years old. And I ask them how they would feel if their eight-year-old self could see them right now and what they would say to them. And the truth is that we all experience something as a child that really has continued to live with us and, in some cases cases haunt us or debilitate us. But until we take steps to address it, it could continue on. And so for me, doing this kind of work, that's always something that I kind of keep in the back of my mind, like really trying to understand how this person got to this place, how this person became the way he or she became. Thank you for sharing that. This is, this is really important. And at least I think it's important. And I'd love to, I'd love to dig into getting to know your mom, did you sit down, whether over the phone or in person, and effectively interview your mom about her backstory?

Starting point is 00:34:50 Or was it more intuited traveling together? How did you unravel that story? I would imagine it would be very uncomfortable if you didn't have a relationship beforehand or much of one. Very much so. I started to just ask her some questions and I could see that some of the questions I asked her, I could just see her body change. A simple question like, how would you describe your childhood? Or were you happy as a kid? And when you were seven years old, what did you want to be? What was your day-to-day like when you were an eight, nine-year-old child? And when she would go back to that period, Tim, it was really like,

Starting point is 00:35:41 I'll never forget how she went from this you know, this adult, you know, my mother who was supposed to be the protector of me became this little girl. And it was really hard for her to even answer those kind of simple questions like, what was your childhood like? And it propelled me to, you know, want to know more. And so, you know, I wasn't, I didn't have a lot of money at the time, but I knew that this was going to be such a necessary investment for me. And for my mom too, because it was obvious that she had never talked about a lot of this stuff. And so we took this trip to Taiwan and a lot of it was really painful. A lot of it was amazing because it was just the two of us having this journey and we kind of shared intimate moments that we'd never shared before as mother and daughter. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:40 to people out there listening, if you've never taken the time to really understand your parents' lives, I would really urge people to do so. Because it will bring people so much more clarity as to who their parents really are and why they have made the decisions that they've made. I really want to underscore how much I agree with that and have seen the type of conversation you're describing, which can be very uncomfortable, completely change how my adult friends operate in the world and relate to their family, meaning not just their family parents, but their family, spouse, kids, etc. Because perhaps on some level, if you have unresolved resentment, not to say that this conversation will resolve it all, but if you have some degree of resentment towards your parents, your childhood and your ability to parent and so many other things that may be sort of below the liminal layer of awareness, it's really remarkable. And I've had some very open conversations with my parents in the last

Starting point is 00:38:01 few years that if you had asked me 10 years ago, if I would ever even contemplate having these conversations, I would have brushed it aside as completely impossible. And it's given me a level of relief that I couldn't have predicted beforehand? Well, I think it's particularly critical for men to do this because I do feel like right now there are a lot of young men and men who are feeling crisis right now, whether it's the job market or, um, you know, the Me Too movement or whatever. I, you know, I, I, you know, the suicide rate, for example, is, is, is skyrocketing among men. And I think that for so long, men have been told to not feel or to not show emotion. And I think that igniting that process of getting to know your parents or your father for young men, I think it's just a really

Starting point is 00:39:18 important thing for people to really do, because young men really need permission to be able to feel. And so many men feel in crisis right now, because they've never been given that permission to feel. Definitely. And I would say also that if anyone listening is perhaps saying to themselves, as I did for a long time, well, I just don't want to deal with it. I don't want to open that Pandora's box. I've put it behind me. I've compartmentalized.

Starting point is 00:39:53 What I would say, at least in my experience, is you're going to deal with it in a conscious productive way where you face it head on or are you going to compress it into a box and allow it to seep out the edges in strange ways where it manifests as you getting easily pissed off or yelling at your kid or whatever it might be because one way or another you are dealing with with it. And my experience has been, it's really trying to figure out what your coping mechanisms are, and if they're maladaptive, causing you further harm or adaptive in some positive way. And the question of therapy is one I'd like to return to. How did you find your therapist? Oh, that's a tough question because I don't even remember.

Starting point is 00:40:52 And I suppose the tack I'm taking is how might you suggest people find a therapist if they've never even entertained the thought before, right? So it can be self-referential or it could be just a broader discussion of therapy. Yeah, well, unfortunately, in our culture, you know, our healthcare system is not conducive for people to find therapists or even have insurance cover therapy, which I think is so, it's so asked backwards in every possible way. And that's why so many doctors are just prescribing, you know, pharmaceutical drugs to, you know, for people to band-aid or put a band-aid on their pain. And so what I would say to people is, you know, check with your insurance plan to see if it's covered somehow or if a part of it is covered. And I think people are hesitant to spend money on therapy because it's not cheap.

Starting point is 00:41:59 You know, therapy is expensive. But I have to say that investing in therapy, if your insurance is prohibitive, and you can find therapists that are less expensive than others, it's such an important investment because you're investing in your future, you're investing in your mental health, and, you know, and there's things that just shouldn't be, those are things that should not be ignored. Now, if you absolutely can't afford therapy, you know, if you have a group of friends um and and particularly for men again like men aren't they're not conditioned they weren't raised to be communicative and emotional with with other men but if you can get a group together regularly once a month if you once every two months to just like talk and let down the guard you know convey that it's a it's a completely private you know conversation no one outside of the room should know what what is said but you know people need that outlet to be able to just release you know whether whether

Starting point is 00:43:20 your friends offer you constructive you know advice or criticism is almost irrelevant. You just need to have a release in a safe space to be able to just kind of express your feelings. It's so healthy to do that. And I'm so emphatic about trying to convey that message because right now we're all, humanity is just so addicted to devices that we're not connecting with people. You know, it's ironic. We're so connected with the world. You know, we can find out any score to any game at the tip of our fingertips, but we're more isolated and lonely than ever because we're defaulting to these devices and not communicating enough with

Starting point is 00:44:04 human beings. I mean, you know, remember when we were kids and we would call, you know, when I would call that boy that I had a crush on, those feelings that it would evoke, my God, I would get so nervous and like, you know, I would like start breathing heavily and it would take like an hour for me to get up the nerve to make that call. Like those are those are really important feelings to experience. And we've just like totally done away with all of that because we're now existing in just like swipe culture, right? And we don't even have those opportunities. We don't allow ourselves those opportunities to even feel anymore. And I think that that is, you know, it's really dangerous

Starting point is 00:44:46 because if you don't have those outlets and you just default to those devices, you can find those dark communities and dig yourself even deeper into a hole. And so the extent that you can seek out human contact, put the phones away and just like sit in a room together without phones. See if you can even do that. Smile at each other, you know, like just have some human contact. Yeah, agreed. And what I'll do also is take a number of therapy services. And for those people who might be more constrained financially, some apps as well that are related to therapy, and I'll put them in the show notes. So for people listening, you can go to tim.blog.com forward slash podcast

Starting point is 00:45:31 and just find this episode, and I'll put those in the show notes for people. That'd be great. You mentioned earlier the sort of male demographic increasing suicide rates as a trend line. I'd like to talk about some of your female influences, extraordinary women who have perhaps influenced you. You've spent time with some incredible people. And I mean, just to name a few, Oprah Winfrey, Barbara Walters. What have you picked up, observed, or learned from some of these incredible women you've had the opportunity to spend time with? You know, it's funny because all my life as a young person, I always fancied having a life like Barbara Walters or Oprah Winfrey. And so when I got a chance to actually work with them and sit at a table with them and look to my right and see them, it was just, it was surreal.

Starting point is 00:46:34 I was just, I had like outer body experiences whenever I'd look to my left and I'd see, look into the eyes of Oprah Winfrey. And I remember I was always a really ambitious young person. And I've always been kind of a sponge that likes to absorb as much wisdom as I can about how to be a better reporter or how to be more successful, right? And every time I interacted with Barbara Walters, the first thing that she would ever ask me is, you know, are you taking care of your personal life? Are you me is, you know, are you taking care of your personal life? Are you neglecting your personal life? Are you taking time for your personal life? And I remember I was young when I started working on The View. I was in my mid-20s.

Starting point is 00:47:12 I would always think to myself, like, I want to talk about how you got the interview with Fidel Castro or Monica Lewinsky or how did you do that, you know? But now, in retrospect, looking back, I learned so much from these women about, because what Barbara was doing was basically telling me that she did those things. She neglected her personal life in pursuit of her career. And I could tell that there was a hole left in her. And I remember when she was retiring from ABC, Barbara Walters has interviewed everyone, but she said her biggest regret was not spending more time with her daughter. And I think back on that and it makes me really sad because I so idolized her and wanted a life and a career just like Barbara Walters. And the most important lesson that she taught me was to not neglect my personal life. And I will cherish that advice because I was someone who never wanted to have kids. I never

Starting point is 00:48:28 had that biological desire. I've been married for 12 years and six years into our marriage, my husband said, well, why don't we just try? And I thought, I don't really want to, but if it's something really important to you, we can try. And then I got pregnant pretty quickly. And then I had a miscarriage. And then I got crazy. Then I'm like, I want to have a kid. Because I'm that type A. How do I win at pregnancy?

Starting point is 00:48:55 Yes. I look at myself as a failure. And I had to overcome that. I mean, it was really sick and twisted. But now I look at my children. I have a six and a three-year-old, and even though they drive me crazy, and at 46 years old, I think to myself, like, what am I thinking with a three-year-old? But I just, I'm so grateful to people like Barbara for telling me to not, you know, neglect my personal life because they are just their everything to me.

Starting point is 00:49:25 And everything that I do now in my work and in my life is to try and make this a better place for them and to try and bring people together and ignite dialogue, especially in this period of just ugliness and hostility. Because I've always just believed that the more we know about each other, the more we will respect each other and the better we become ultimately. So I want to ask a little bit more about advice, and then we'll segue to some other spots, including the sort of the hustle of Lisa Ling. But we'll get to that in due time. Before that, as you were telling me this story about Barbara and her advice to you, it made me think of a story that I heard from the writer Neil Gaiman. And when he was exploding in popularity due to the Sandman series of graphic novels,

Starting point is 00:50:31 Stephen King told him at one point, enjoy it, because he had these long lines of people waiting for signatures and so on. And Neil would admit that at the time he was not able to take that advice. He did not savor it. It was very stressful for him. Is there, well, A, were you able to take Barbara's advice at the time that you heard it? Or did it take a while to like course correct and take that into account? And then is there any other advice you've received that you

Starting point is 00:51:01 weren't able to take but later realized was very important? At the time when Barbara, you know, kept asking me those questions and almost like reprimanding me for, because she could tell that I was just so ambitious that I was not really devoting time to my personal life. I didn't take it seriously. But now I just, every time I look at my kids, you know, I'm just so grateful that I was able to have them. I mean, I had a number of miscarriages after the first one. And I definitely went through periods where I thought that I might not be able to have kids. But I am so grateful that I have them because they not only are my life. I mean, everybody loves their kids and everybody considers their kids their life. have made me want to do the right thing for them, you know, and leave this place better for them, and to do everything that I can to, you know, like, it sounds so cliche, Tim, but like, make

Starting point is 00:52:17 the world a better place for them. And so, you know, as we are kind of, again, like in this period of just hostility and ugliness and darkness and our, you know, the people that we are supposed to look up to are, you know, our politicians, our business leaders, in so many cases are so morally bankrupt. bankrupt, it makes me more defiant than ever to want to ignite dialogue and to give people a way to get to know their fellow humans better. I don't feel like what I do is a job. I don't really think about it as a job. I just think it's something that I'm supposed to be doing right now. And to do it well is hard, as is the case with so many things. And I'd like to talk about access and being able to cover some of the groups and stories that you've been able to cover or bring a voice to in terms of stories. So again, this is quoting from the internet, so who knows, but this is a quote that I have in my research. I fancy myself as a bit of a hustler. I'm a very persistent person. I can be aggressive in my own way. You have to constantly be pushing to get the stories that you want told, told.

Starting point is 00:53:51 So you can tell me if that sounds roughly like something you would say, and assuming that it is more or less accurate, what are the keys to getting the type of unprecedented access to groups that you've had so much success with? Well, yes, I certainly have been aggressive throughout my life and my career about trying to get access. But in recent years, since we've had this show, This Is Life on CNN, on the air for the last six seasons, six plus now, I think that people have gotten a good sense of our show and a good sense of me. And I think if you're a regular viewer of our show, you see that I am not a sensational or exploitative person. I like to think of myself as the vehicle through which people can experience other cultures or communities that are different from theirs. And over time, I think that people have started to recognize that if they are going to share their story on a show, ours would probably be a good one to do it because we do give people an opportunity to tell their stories. I mean, at the end of the day,

Starting point is 00:55:32 irrespective of what you may have been accused of or how you may live your life, we are going to give you a chance to tell your story. I might ask you some tough questions, but ultimately this show that we do is really about giving people a chance to share. And I try really, really hard to be as non-judgmental a listener as I can. And as far as catalyzing conversation, getting people to think differently or take action of some type. Do you have any success stories that come to mind for you that have made their way over the transom somehow after people have seen the work that you've done, these various interviews and programs that you've put out into the world? Well, Oprah was certainly, when I was a correspondent for her show, I mean, it was pretty remarkable what she was able to do.

Starting point is 00:56:33 When I reported in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a story about gang rape and just these women having to endure the most unfathomable horrors. I think in two airings of that segment, over $3 million was raised for the organization that helped me do the story that was providing aid to these women. And that just, that really showed me the power of Oprah. I mean, it was, it was unbelievable. I don't know that there will ever be that kind of force for good, um, as Oprah. And, and I really, I really miss her on television because, um, she really, I think, uh, elevated humanity and, and brought things to light that otherwise, like, no television outlet or media outlet would touch. For me, our shows are, you know, less shows about, you know, activism. Our shows really are an exploration of different worlds or subcultures or different issues. And just,

Starting point is 00:57:47 you know, people coming up to me constantly and just saying, I had no idea that, you know, that black Muslims, you know, had such a big presence in this country and that the women actually feel very liberated by being able to wear a hijab because they don't feel the pressure of having to show their bodies or using their bodies to influence anything. You know, I mean, I think just people expressing their enlightenment or just that they learned something from something that I've done, that is really satisfying and fulfilling for me. people the opportunity to stress test a lot of their assumptions and to sort of broaden their picture of reality to accommodate firsthand reports from people that might conflict with whatever stories they've kind of fabricated or inferred from sensational news headlines and so on, right? Yeah, I mean, a couple seasons ago, we did something about gender fluidity, and we profiled a man named Steve, who was starting to dress in women's clothing.

Starting point is 00:59:15 And Steve told me that he'd always wanted to, like he always felt this connection with his feminine side, but, you know, because we live in a culture that has never welcomed it, in fact, to the contrary, was really, you know, he felt like he had to suppress that feminine side. He never, you know, would wear women's clothing out. Like, he always felt like he was more gender fluid than not. And so I was in a room with him as he was putting makeup on, putting earrings on, he put a dress on. And I literally said to him, Steve, I have to be honest with you. If I saw you walking down the street randomly, I would probably look at you like, oh my God, like what is going on? Like that guy is a freak. Like I might like just be predisposed to have that feeling. But having spent time with him, getting to know his story, you know, just like getting inside his head

Starting point is 01:00:25 allowed me to see him so differently that that whole, you know, exterior, the dress, the makeup, it was almost like that was what he was supposed to be wearing. Like, I saw him no differently in lipstick and earrings than I did an hour before when he was just talking to me as Steve in a t-shirt and jeans. And it just goes, it's just like such a testament to this idea of listening people and hearing people out. I'm as guilty as the next person of just following the people on Twitter who espouse the same beliefs as I do. You know, it's so easy. I watch the media that espouses what I believe. And it's easier than ever to exist in these silos. And so what I'm trying really hard to do in life,

Starting point is 01:01:17 but also in my show is break out of those bubbles and really hear people out and understand how other people live. Because that's the only way that we're going to be able to come to an understanding politically or socially. I can't see us existing this way forever. It's just like it's too volatile. Yeah, it absolutely is. word, but I'll use it for lack of a better stand. And so the complexity of each human as this tapestry of emotions and feelings, the harder it is to paint with a broad brush and hate someone because you view them as one issue, right? You view them as a walking opinion that you disagree with. But when you start to flesh that out as a portrait, you realize that the vast majority of that person is shared. It's a shared experience that you also have. Absolutely, Tim.

Starting point is 01:02:38 I mean, you know, when we worked on a piece about the MS-13 gang, you know, the gang that President Trump has, you know, called animals, right? And yes, they have, as an organization, committed unspeakable atrocities and, you know, have committed the most violent acts imaginable. But this is not in any way to condone that savagery. But when you take the time to understand the kinds of things that these people were exposed to in their home countries or the pressure they may have been under to do what they did, it doesn't make you, or it doesn't make me, I should speak for myself, feel sorry for them. It doesn't make me condone what they've done. It doesn't make what they've done right in any way. But it gives me the ability and the opportunity to try and figure out how to prevent the next young person who may be exposed to the same things from going down that road. Unless we can identify where that behavior comes from and what those people were exposed to, it's not going to make it any better just to call them animals and try and hunt

Starting point is 01:04:06 them down. You know, you have to attack it at its root if you're ever going to be able to make real progress. Yeah, definitely. Looking at causes and not just symptoms. It's very easy to discard or kind of brush away entire groups. Yeah, it's just easy to characterize a group of people as savages who need to be punished at all cost. Yeah, it sort of absolves you of the responsibility of thinking, which doesn't ultimately solve anything. Lisa, what is up next? I believe that you have now season six. Is that right?

Starting point is 01:04:56 Yes. Yes, season six. What does season six have in store? What are some of the topics that you'll be exploring? And also, where can people find it? So our show, This Is Life, is on CNN. It premieres on September 29th, a Sunday, and will air on CNN every Sunday thereafter. Our first episode is called Porn X because so many young people are getting their sex ed from pornography.

Starting point is 01:05:25 You know, porn has always been around, but now the ease of access, any kid with a device or access to a device can access unlimited amounts of porn. And it's having a devastating impact on an entire generation and the way they perceive sex and relationships. We're also doing a piece about benzodiazepines. So we're talking about Valium, Ativan, Xanax, Klonopin. These are medications that are used for anxiety. If you're not on them, you probably know people who are. And they are medicines that should be used for very short periods of time. But there's a whole generation of people who've been on them for years. And it's a highly, highly addictive drug.

Starting point is 01:06:16 And there is a fear that benzos are the next opioids. We also explore women in the Marines. They've been the last branch of the military to allow women to participate in combat. And we embedded with the Marines at Camp Pendleton. We're doing an episode about swingers because swingers aren't what you think they are. They've now evolved into like an entire lifestyle that just welcomes free sex. And we also have an episode about this gang in Mississippi. It's the fastest growing gang in Mississippi. It's a white gang, although they're not a racist gang. But we understand why, we attempt to understand why that gang is growing so fast in the state of Mississippi. How do you choose your subjects? I mean, you have the ability to canvas extremely

Starting point is 01:07:10 widely to pick groups and subjects. How did you end up deciding on some of these? Well, very randomly, actually. I mean, I'm a pretty voracious reader and consumer of information. And we will generally pick about 20 topics and present them to CNN, and they will approve eight of them for us to pursue. But for me, it's really about exploring worlds that are just different from me that I think people would find interesting. You know, the porn ed episode and the benzos episode, to me, there are two issues that I think people need to know about. You know, as far as the pornography episode is concerned, like parents need to wake up and acknowledge the fact that the moment they give their kids a device, they have unfettered access to extreme kinds of pornography, even if they have really rigid filters on their devices. I mean, you're basically giving your kids a supercomputer to have on their bodies. And so there are some

Starting point is 01:08:19 issues that we take on that I just think people need to know about. Yeah, the porn is tricky. I mean, the parental controls, I saw a tweet, I won't mention his name just in case he wouldn't appreciate it, but he put up a tweet recently which said, you know, my wife set up parental controls, forgot the password, needed my son to figure it out. Now she has to ask him for the password to log into the parental controls to watch television. And it's a very challenging, I would imagine, situation where you have digital natives who, by almost every measure, are more savvy with technology than the parents who are trying to implement controls. For sure. Very, very challenging. Well, you know, in our episode, we feature an adult film actress

Starting point is 01:09:10 who's on a mission to tell porn consumers that it's fantasy and that what you don't see is that before cameras even started rolling, they negotiated what they will and will not do. And they had a conversation about consent, you know, what, what, what kids can access. I mean, you, you don't see people talking about consent, you know, or negotiations or women exerting any kind of power at all. Um, we also spend time with a woman who created this website called Make Love Not Porn, where she shows real people having real world sex, which means like they're not perfect body types. that we need to start seeing what real sex really looks like and not this artificial porn that is heavily produced and plays on, in most cases, your wildest fantasies because it's just not real and it's damaging kids' minds. What was the hardest episode, and you can interpret that however you

Starting point is 01:10:24 like, hard could take many different forms, but what was the hardest episode, and you can interpret that however you like, hard could take many different forms, but what was the hardest episode on some level for you to get done this season? Well, the Benzos episode made me the most pissed because I started to realize that this class of medication is one of the most widely prescribed on earth. Yet doctors in many cases don't know how to get people off them if they are starting to exhibit symptoms of withdrawal. I talked to a very high-ranking psychiatrist at Stanford, in the Stanford Medical School, and I asked her, when you were in medical school, did you learn how to deal with benzo withdrawal, or did you learn how to get people off of these medications? She said, no, this is a psychiatrist at Stanford. And now you have general practitioners, you have internists, you have

Starting point is 01:11:25 pediatricians prescribing these drugs for an indefinite period of time. It's just, it has made me infuriated because doctors are the people that we entrust with our safety, with our lives, and they, in many cases, don't realize how to treat the symptoms of these drugs. Yeah, it's such an important point that, you know, before you start taking any medication, and unfortunately, this is incumbent upon the consumer, which is very unfair, but nonetheless, caveat emptor, to figure out what the termination clause looks like in the sense that having a clear understanding of what the physical dependence can be if you take any drug, right? A reason, for instance, my girlfriend had a really bad injury some time ago, and we have an unused bottle of Tremadol at home. And I was like, you know what? I want to get rid of this right away because having it in the house is a liability.

Starting point is 01:12:34 And a lot of these drugs are so powerful. But because they're common, the incredible potency, in some cases for good therapeutic effect, but often for devastating negative effects, are really underestimated. I mean, my best friend not too long ago died of a fatal combination of fentanyl and alcohol because a friend of his said, oh, you have a headache? Here, take this. Gave him fentanyl. And this friend, meaning the guy who gave it to him, had developed a very high tolerance because he was an opiate user. My friend had never used opiates and fell asleep and didn't wake up. And these are, just because something is common does not mean that it is extremely dangerous if misused or abused or simply used for a long period of time. So, I look forward to seeing that episode. Yeah. I mean, I really, really hope people tune into this because, you know, isn't it curious that these medications are so widely prescribed yet, you know, our culture is more

Starting point is 01:13:43 anxious than ever? You know, like That's the irony in all of this. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I remember speaking, I was moderating a panel on psychedelic science, which you mentioned earlier, at the Milken Global Conference. And I asked two questions before starting. And one of them, well, I'll tell you both questions. The first was, raise your hand if you know, I guess it's more of a statement. Raise your hand if you know anyone who's taking antidepressants and is still depressed. Every hand in the room, like 400, 500 went up. And then I asked them, this is a pretty muckety-muck crowd, keep in mind, right? And I asked them, have you personally have you personally, or do you know anyone

Starting point is 01:14:25 who has been affected by opiate addiction? Raise your hand. And again, every hand in the room, 400, 500 went up. And it just, it really begs the question, you know, are we treating, are we treating causes? And do we have a system that allows for the treatment or the investigation of causes, or are we simply masking the symptoms of dis-ease that we really haven't taken the time to properly understand? So it is a very, very important subject. Well, yeah. And that's, again, that's why I laud you for really taking on psychedelic therapy, because I think that it could, you know, under the right guidance, right, in conjunction with therapy, I think it could be really revolutionary and allow people to kind of like open up those pathways that have been closed up for so long. And I'm just, honestly, I am absolutely terrified of a lot of these pharmaceutical drugs. But what terrifies me even more is that a lot of the doctors who are prescribing them don't really know, like really, really know the consequences and how to help people get off of them if they find themselves dependent on them.

Starting point is 01:15:53 Yeah, that's terrifying. Well, I hope that the broader awareness generated by the episode will catalyze some different thinking and maybe some different action by perhaps regulators or at the very least physicians who are prescribing these medications? Yeah. I mean, I say in the episode, like the one thing that I've done, because I've gotten medicine prescribed and I get the literature and I just, I don't even open it, but I realize now that it's incumbent on me, if I'm going to put something in my body, I need to look it over. And if I have any questions whatsoever, I need to ask. We all need to be doing that more regularly. We have to take the initiative, even though I do believe it's a doctor's responsibility to really know what he or she is prescribing, we also need to take responsibility and read through the literature when we get it.

Starting point is 01:16:42 Yeah, absolutely. I want to change direction for just a couple of minutes because I know we have limited time left and we're going to come back to This Is Life. But you mentioned earlier that you're a voracious reader. Are there any books in particular that you have gifted often to other people in the past? The book that I have gifted the most often, you would not expect this of me, but it's called Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World. Fabulous book. Fabulous book. You've read it? Isn't it amazing? It's incredible.

Starting point is 01:17:24 The reason I love tell me so much well because i think that um history has portrayed genghis khan as the ultimate raper and pillager of the universe but what people don't realize is that his mongol army um i mean he was he was one of the world's great democratizers, and that the only way the Mongol army was able to take control of most of the world in 25 years, it took the Mongols 25 years to conquer the amount of territory that it took the Romans to conquer in 250 years, was that the Mongol army would go in, they would take out the aristocracy and give the lowest level citizen, right, the slaves in some cases, an opportunity to rise up within his army. Khaleesi's character on Game of Thrones, I heard, was based on Genghis Khan. And when you look at, you know, if you were to look at his army, it would consist of people who, in some cases, had blonde hair and blue eyes because he conquered so much of Eastern Europe. But that's a story that I think also in this period of class divide is really a

Starting point is 01:18:40 moving one because he was this character who, you know, was a slave at one time himself, went on to conquer two thirds of the population of the earth because he elevated, you know, people, he elevated slaves and the lowest level of human to rise up in his army. I'm really glad that you brought this book up. It was recommended to me by, I won't mention it by name, but one of the best known CEOs in the world. And I thought it was kind of a strange recommendation at the time because I had the same assumptions about Genghis Khan and then came to read this book. And the story of the author himself is also fascinating because he went back and traced these historical paths. And what you really come to appreciate is, A, the magnitude of this empire that was built compared to, like you said, the realities are of this army and the leadership style or the conquering style of Genghis Khan in so much as, but as I remember it, the one caveat was, you can continue to pray to all the gods that you want to pray to, as long as you also pray for Genghis Khan. Which seemed very fair, seemed very fair.

Starting point is 01:20:17 But that's a fantastic book. Definitely. It's so good. It's so good. It's so good. And like, you would not think, you know, when you hear the term democratizer, that, you know, the greatest among us, or whoever lived, was someone who has been reputed to be such a, you know, a villain in history. But that was all contrived to, you know, his portrayal and the portrayal of the Mongol army was all contrived too you know his portrayal and the portrayal of the mongol army was all contrived so it's just so fascinating um to to read and it's i've i cannot tell you how many people i've gifted that book and just just just to also be clear i mean he his army was excellent at killing people. I mean, there was that. But it was not as one-sided a story of a roaming horde of sort of foaming at the mouth savages that many of the other portrayals would have you to believe is very sophisticated in a lot of respects. So, I second that recommendation. Are there any other books

Starting point is 01:21:26 that you've gifted or recommended to many people? I mean, I also love The Alchemist. It's one of my favorite. Yeah, yeah. You know, just following the journey of this shepherd boy to far-flung, you know, corners of the earth was just such a, like, a fantastical journey for me, you know, though he realized that, like, you know, that the most fascinating place was inside of him, you know? And the most thoughtful, important place was inside of him. Like, I just will always, that book will always have a very special place in my heart. It's such a fast read, such an easy read. And I remember reading that when I was, I want to say, first traveling. I didn't travel much at all when I was younger. And it did have a lasting impact. And the story behind that book also, I find very encouraging because, and I might get the numbers wrong, but I believe that Paulo Coelho, the author, had an initial print run of something like 500 copies, and then that first publisher gave up on The Alchemist, shelved it, and then he had to later republish it.

Starting point is 01:22:51 And of course, now it's sold 100 million plus copies. Wow, I didn't even know that story. Wow. Yeah, it was not. It's such a simple little book, but it's just so profound. And one more book, even though I haven't gifted it to a lot of people, but it is, I credit this book with propelling me to dig deeper and to not always believe the narrative. And that book is A People's history of the united states by

Starting point is 01:23:25 howard zinn this is one i haven't read so tell me tell me more you you have to read this book because it will turn on its head so much of what you have always believed to be true about this country you know it it goes into graphic detail the savagery that took place, you know, with Columbus, with Christopher Columbus on the Native Americans, the Native people who inhabited this land. I mean, it just forces you to rethink everything that you've learned and to think about it in another context. And it's a profound experience to read this book and think about it in the context of history. I love it. You need to get this book, Tim. Yeah, I'll check it out.

Starting point is 01:24:21 And after you read it, call me and let me know what you think. I mean, it's incredible. I will. And what I love about the two of the three examples that you gave, much like the show, I suppose, so it shouldn't be surprising, is that these are assumption and narrative testing books. And I would say that if you find yourself, say, for any given week, having the day-to-day experience of not having uncomfortable conversations or reading things that make you uncomfortable, not in a mudsling capacity, but in the sense of deeply and legitimately stress testing beliefs or narratives that you have about yourself or the world or other people, then you're really not living properly as far as I'm concerned. Because so much of what we tell ourselves is just utter bullshit. It's complete,

Starting point is 01:25:23 complete nonsense. And as soon as you start to stress test it, it just falls bullshit. It's complete, complete nonsense. And as soon as you start to stress test it, it just falls apart. It's like the wizard behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. So I'm really glad that you mentioned these, and I will pick up Howard's book. And when you read that book, you will, I mean, everything that you just said, after you read that book, you'll go, okay, now I get why she responded to this book, because your jaw will be dropped. And again, everything that you learned in school, you will think differently about it. You'll think about this other perspective. And I think it will change the way you view our institutions. I think it'll change the way you think about what it means to be an American. And, you know, hopefully it will strike a chord with you and you will, like, just feel more empathy because of, you know, like how this country was, like the way this country was founded.

Starting point is 01:26:28 Yeah, empathy, man, we could definitely use a heavy dose of more empathy. And I think one of the ways that you develop empathy, in part, is by through allowing and even encouraging your own beliefs to be tested, developing more flexibility in how you perceive the world and other people. Absolutely. Because the more labels you apply to other people and yourself, the dumber you become, to borrow a Paul Graham, and paraphrase a Paul Graham expression. And it's through, I think, this productive discomfort of reading things like this or watching television shows

Starting point is 01:27:13 like those you put out, that you develop a cognitive flexibility that opens the door to emotional development in terms of empathy. It's really, really important. Hey, it's easy to live in a bubble and to be told what to think and then spew what you've been told. That's easy, right? It's hard to try and understand the truth or take the time.

Starting point is 01:27:41 It requires time and energy to get invested in other people's stories. But I do, in my heart of hearts, believe that you emerge a better and smarter human as a result of taking that time. It is in no way a waste. No, no. And it's deeply positive. It's also deeply practical, right? At least in my experience and what I've observed, if you don't have any empathy or you have very minimal empathy for other people who are labeled your enemies or the other party or whatever it might be, that's also reflected in, I think, how you treat the people around you, including the people you love most, and not excluding yourself. So, you know, how you treat others as you would have them treat you, it goes the other way around as well. And I think that how you relate to the world and treat others is also often mirrored in how you relate to and treat yourself. So this is deeply positive, I think. It makes you more adaptable, and it's also very practical from an emotional health perspective.

Starting point is 01:28:52 Well, they say that empathy is a key driver in success. Some of the most successful people have had those, those, you know, characterizations or could be characterized as, as being empathy. I mean, there's a direct correlation between empathy and success. But yeah, I mean, and I think that it's, it's also, you, you, you, you can develop empathy too, you know, it's, it's, It's not like it's something that you're born with, right? And I think for young people, for any parents who are listening to this, or just young people who are really attached to their devices, I think take that time, as I mentioned earlier, to just

Starting point is 01:29:39 put it away and have conversations with people. really, really connect with people on a human level. I think that the further we get away from that, you know, the further we get from, you know, being able to feel empathy. And I think a great example of one of those conversations is the conversation that you had with your mom and the steps that you took after a childhood, which is very common for many people listening, of not discussing emotions through therapy, through this conversation with your mom and so on, creating access to your own emotions and greater awareness of your own emotions naturally led you to a greater development of empathy towards other people. Because you're able to recognize. Yeah, I know I'm a better person as a result of that experience.

Starting point is 01:30:31 And ultimately, I do think I'm a better mom because of it. Because I recognize how much it benefited me to take the time to understand my mom's past. It was one of the most important life lessons for me. Yeah, I would imagine your kids are going to benefit tremendously from the effort that you took in having some very uncomfortable conversations at the time. And let me ask just a few more questions. I know we're coming up on time shortly. This is a hard question, so you can sort of tackle it from any angle you like, but the billboard question.

Starting point is 01:31:12 So if you could put a message, a quote, an image, anything non-commercial on a billboard metaphorically to get something out to billions of people, let's say, does anything come to mind that you might put on such a billboard? You know, the thing that I think would speak to these times would be, like, stop texting and start listening. Yeah. Because I just, I feel like so much has gotten lost in this digital culture that we are living in. Yeah. Yes, indeed.

Starting point is 01:31:54 I think we're very poorly, poorly designed for the environments that we have created for ourselves from a digital perspective. Yeah, and I mean, you know, and I need to practice what I preach because I'm on my device a lot. I try really hard now to put it away when I'm at home. And if I have to do some work on it, I'll tell my kids, like, I'm going to go upstairs and do another room because it's just, it's rude for me to be on my phone in front of them all the time. And how can I expect them to not be on the phone all the time when they get their devices one day or when their parents one day? So I try really hard and I am as guilty as the next person of going down that rabbit hole of social media late at night, you know, and just like an hour will elapse. And I'm still on Instagram and feeling really shitty about myself because I've just looked at these perfect lives of people, you know, and, and look, like, I'll be honest, there have been, you know, dinners that I see my friends posting about that I wasn't invited to. And I feel this like pang of like, why wasn't I invited to that?

Starting point is 01:33:06 You know, I definitely have felt that. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm an adult, I can get over this stuff pretty quickly. But for this young generation of kids that, you know, is growing up with this, like not getting invited to, you know, a party, and not just any party, because you don't just post any party on Instagram. You post like the sickest party you've ever been to on Instagram. Right. And not getting invited to that. Like, what does that do to your ego? You know, it's like the thing I hated the most about high school was just like, I remember that kind of obsession I had with popularity, you know, because I think all young people, they, they want to know what their place is and they want to have friends and, you know, they want to be popular. Social media is

Starting point is 01:33:51 every, like, that which I hated about popularity in high school magnified. And I just, you know, I think that we all need to just, like, put it aside from time to time and just breathe and really, really connect with people. So the message that my billboard would contain would definitely have to do with just connecting with humans. Well, you do a good job of showcasing that in the work that you put out. And you have this season six, This Is Life on CNN, premiering Sunday, September 29th, 10 p.m. Eastern and Pacific. And since we just mentioned social media,

Starting point is 01:34:37 people can find you on Instagram. Correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong. Lisa Ling Instagram, that's your handle. Twitter at Lisa. I'm sorry, go ahead. Lisa Lingstagram. Oh, there we go. Oh, I missed the S. Lisa Lingstagram. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So I'll let Lisa Lingstagram. Okay. I will link to that just to save people the spelling challenge. Twitter a little bit easier at Lisa Ling. Is that right? That's right. And then we've got the website to This Is Life, which I'll link to in the show notes.

Starting point is 01:35:10 Facebook, is it facebook.com slash Ling? Yes. All right. It is. And I try hard to read a lot of the messages that I get, but I'm not great at it because I've been trying really hard, especially when I'm around my kids, to be present with them. And, you know, I am going to start taking bigger breaks from social media because I just, you know, I think we all need to just have those breathers. And I hope people will do that along with me. Yeah. Yeah. Social media will

Starting point is 01:35:43 still be here when you get back. So exactly. It's not, it's not going anywhere for better or for worse. Lisa, do you have anything else you would like to add? Any suggestions, comments, any, any parting words before we wrap up? I mean, I think we covered a lot. I think you're great. And I hope we can work together in some capacity, maybe on psychedelic stuff. Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. I'd love to be a resource and help in any way. I appreciate that you're out there having really thoughtful conversations with people. long before this podcast was even an idea in my head. So you've paved the way and provided a really inspiring example, no doubt, to so many people

Starting point is 01:36:34 who have then wanted to emulate what you do, which is providing a full human picture in subcultures and related to topics that can be polarizing or uncomfortable. And that's a very important service in the world. And it's hard for me to imagine, at least as long as I've been on this planet, a more important time for that type of influence to exist to offset so much of the terrifying sort of polarization that exists in the world right now. So thank you for doing what you do.

Starting point is 01:37:10 Thank you. Thanks, Tim. Likewise. And so I think this is a natural place to close. So thank you very much, Lisa. And to everybody listening, you can find links to everything we've discussed in the show notes, as usual, at Tim.blog forward slash podcast.

Starting point is 01:37:29 And just look up Lisa Ling, and it will come to your fingertips. And until next time, thanks for listening. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share

Starting point is 01:37:57 the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Business Wars.

Starting point is 01:38:41 What's that? It's a podcast. People always ask me what podcast I listen to. And the truth is, I don't listen to that many, just a handful, because most of my bandwidth is taken up with producing my own podcast. One exception, in other words, one that makes the cut is Business Wars from the podcast network Wondery. Of course, human history has thousands upon thousands of epic wars, and that has existed forever. But some notable wars are waged between businesses, whether between gigantic corporations or between tiny, tiny startups and large incumbents, David and Goliath situations. And business wars, which I've been listening to, just listened to it this morning, in fact, on my ride to downtown Austin, takes you right into the middle of these battles.

Starting point is 01:39:29 Sometimes the prize for these competitors is your wallet or your attention. Sometimes it's just the fun of beating the other guy. The outcomes of these battles shape how we live, what we buy, and often what we think. I've listened to previous episodes and previous seasons. So for instance, I have listened to Netflix versus Blockbuster. It was amazing. Nike versus Adidas, also incredible. But there are also smaller businesses and many different types of folks profiled. The sound design is incredible. I didn't think it would matter to me, but it really does. And the newest season, which I've been listening to, is about the WWEs. That's the World Wrestling

Starting point is 01:40:13 Entertainment's long road to success and battles with the WCW. And just as one surprise, did you know that the World Wrestling Federation, now the WWE, started as just one of 30 regional wrestling associations. And the first episode, so this is WWF versus WCW, Titan Rising, and a lot of strategy comes out of this. A lot can be learned about how to do battle in business. But here's the description. It's the early 1980s, and there's peace in the wrestling business. For years, regional wrestling companies have maintained order by sticking to their own slices of US and Canadian territory. But all that's about to change.

Starting point is 01:40:50 Vince McMahon has just taken over the WWF and he wants war. He's on a mission to crush all opposition and establish the WWF as the only wrestling game in town. But his assault on the wrestling status quo will also make him a powerful enemy. Cable TV mogul Ted Turner. I had no idea about this backstory. And it's great. So definitely check it out.

Starting point is 01:41:11 It's hosted by David Brown, a former anchor of Marketplace, who's really fantastic. So David, as you're listening, nicely done. Might ping you about future audiobooks. And it is an immersive sound design experience. You'll see what I mean when you check it out. It shares the untold and very real stories of what went on behind the scenes with, now broadly speaking, the leaders, executives, and investors and what led them to new heights or to ruin or sometimes somewhere in between. You can find Business Wars on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this episode right now, or head to wondery.fm slash Tim.

Starting point is 01:41:46 That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y dot F-M slash Tim, T-I-M. That's where you can find Business Wars. It's a great show. I suggest starting with the latest series. It's really good, even if you don't care about wrestling whatsoever. I mean, as a child of the 80s, it was always somewhere in the culture for me,

Starting point is 01:42:03 but it's great also as a business strategy, tactic, art of war type of discussion. Latest series, WWF versus WCW. It's a pretty epic one filled with all the colorful cast of characters you would expect. Hulk Hogan, there's some amazing archival audio of TV shows that Hulk Hogan appeared on. I actually choked one anchor unconscious accidentally. It's a pretty fucking crazy story. Pardon my French. Stone Cold Steve Austin and many others. So check it out.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #388: Lisa Ling — Exploring Subcultures, Learning to Feel, and Changing Perception

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