The Tim Ferriss Show - #402: Books I've Loved — Seth Godin and Esther Perel

Starting point is 00:00:00 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would have seen an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. Me, Tim, Paris, show. This podcast is brought to you by HU, as in human, H-U. HU, founded by family trio Jason Karp, his wife Jessica, and his brother-in-law Jordan Brown.

Starting point is 00:00:34 Started off as a paleo-inspired restaurant in New York City in 2012. I actually came across that restaurant when I was doing a book launch, staying at the Ace Hotel, and thought to myself, this is the best place I've ever found in New York City. It's just incredible. And now they make amazing plant-based healthy snacks, including their award-winning paleo slash vegan dark chocolate. I discovered the chocolate a few years ago and got totally hooked on my podcast road trip to Kern State Prison. I was going to do a podcast behind the wall inside a maximum security prison, which I did. At the time, Jason Karp, the co-founder I mentioned,

Starting point is 00:01:11 Peter Tia, and others were all in the same car, and Jason brought a case of huge chocolate for our four-hour ride. I ate a ton of these bars, at least four of these bars in one sitting, and I didn't crash, which was sort of miraculous to me. Maybe it's because, for instance, their simple bar has only three ingredients, organic cacao, organic cacao butter, and organic coconut sugar without any soy or other junk. Or maybe it's just because I was timing them out and eating one bar every 30 minutes. In any case, since then, and because I love their products and their philosophy, I've become an advisor to Hugh and I've also tried

Starting point is 00:01:50 everything. Their hunks, which are chocolate covered nuts and berries. The almonds are my favorite. If you're looking there, that's one of my favorites. And their grain-free keto-friendly crackers. Their stuff is simply delicious and deliciously simple. They really, really pay attention to quality. Their tagline is get back to human because they believe people can feel and perform better when they eat foods with cleaner, simpler, less processed, and less industrial ingredients. They avoid emulsifiers, palm oil, dairy, soy, or sunflower less than sugar alcohol as a whole list. And everything is certified gluten free, kosher, and non-GMO. So pretty much if you are trying to avoid something that bugs you,

Starting point is 00:02:30 it has already been taken off the table. And the most important thing to remember is their stuff is delicious, absolutely delicious. I really recommend you try them out. And you can get 15% off your Hue order. Again, that's H-U, Your Hue order by visiting huekitchen.com forward slash Tim, H-U kitchen.com forward slash Tim and using discount code Tim at checkout, T-I-M. Make haste. Their holiday shipping cutoff is December 18th. And these are perfect for the holidays.

Starting point is 00:02:59 I'm telling you, these are the most delicious chocolate bars I've ever had. And I'll get to what I recommend. So get 15% off by visiting hughkitchen.com forward slash Tim and entering discount code Tim, T-I-M, at checkout. And on that page, so go, if you want to see one of my favorites, go to hughkitchen.com forward slash Tim. You will see a number of things, including the nut butters gift box. And this includes a number of different bars that have nut butter inside these chocolate squares. You get cashew butter plus vanilla bean. That is the one that I had four bars of on this car ride. You get almond butter plus

Starting point is 00:03:39 puffed quinoa. I think I had another two to four of those on that ride, then hazelnut butter and cashew butter plus raspberry. But these things are amazing. You will not be disappointed. So check it out. Go to hughkitchen.com forward slash Tim and use promo code Tim to get 15% off. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is usually my job to sit down with world-class performers of all different types, startup founders, investors, chess champions, Olympic athletes, you name it, to tease out the habits that you can apply in your own lives. This episode, however, is an experiment and part of a short-form series that I'm doing, simply called Books I've Loved.

Starting point is 00:04:24 I've invited some amazing past guests, close friends, and new faces to share their favorite books, describe their favorite books, the books that have influenced them, changed them, transformed them for the better. And I hope you pick up one or two new mentors in the form of books from this new series and apply the lessons in your own life. I had a lot of fun putting this together, inviting these people to participate and have learned so, so much myself. I hope that is also the case for you. Please enjoy. Hey, it's Seth, Seth Godin. I'm an author, an entrepreneur, a blogger, and a teacher. I've written 19 bestselling books, packaged 120 others, but the most effective

Starting point is 00:05:06 project I've created is the Alt-MBA. I'm here to honor Tim and a half a billion and to talk about a bunch of books that have stuck with me through the years. I want to start and end with particularly profound ones, but each one matters a lot to me, and I think it will resonate with the people who are listening to this. So let's get going. The Gift by Lewis Hyde. We gave The Gift to many of the first 1,000 or 2,000 people who took the Alt-MBA. The Gift is a dense, extraordinarily researched book written by a brilliant writer, and it's not about what you think it's about. It's not about reciprocity. It's not about the hustle. It's not about giving gifts so you will get things. It's about the muse, about being a genius. It's

Starting point is 00:06:01 about culture, and it's about society. It's about the fact that the thing that binds us together isn't trade, nor is it, as Graeber would say, debt. No, the thing that binds us together is the fact that we are able to create something because we got a gift from who knows where, and that we could turn that thing we created into a connection. We can do it by sharing. And as we share with one another, we open doors for other people. And every once in a while, I feel a little bit burnt out, and I'll open up any section of the gift to read about the shoemaker,

Starting point is 00:06:43 to read about Calvin, to read about Calvin, to read about genius, to read about potlatch, and it will stick with me. Next on my list is a book written by Tom Peters that most people have not read. It's called The Pursuit of Wow from 1994. I met Tom in 84, right after In Search of Excellence came out. It was just a random connection. But ever since then, I have been inspired and amazed by his energy and by his passion. And this book captures so much of it. You don't have to read many of the books I've written if you just read The Pursuit of Wow. What Tom is talking about in this book, and he's not afraid to use exclamation points, underlines, bold, and the occasional illustration or photo, is that people who care

Starting point is 00:07:33 can make a difference, and that business as usual just isn't going to cut it anymore. As Tom Peters would say, make it excellent, period. Thank you, Tom, for showing me that putting energy into the work really can pay dividends. After that, three books to share that have basic concepts in them that once you see them, you cannot unsee them. The first one is a book I wish I had written. There aren't many books I haven't written that I wish I had written, and this is one of them. The Long Tale by Chris Anderson. You may have heard about it, but you probably haven't read the book as closely as you might. If you care about how ideas spread in our culture, and you want to understand issues around scarcity and abundance, about how we pick what we want in an era when the gatekeepers

Starting point is 00:08:28 have left the building, well, the long tail will help you see it. The idea that the power law curve really is symmetrical. The idea that people who aggregate many, many choices, as so many of the behemoths in social media have done, are building something that's going to continue to change the culture. The second one, also based on a curve, is Crossing the Chasm by Jeff Moore. There are many editions of this book. I like the older editions, but that's just because I'm a boomer. But crossing the chasm helps us understand that it is a myth, an incorrect myth, a false myth, to believe that we can start with an idea for a few people and ride it from early adopter to early majority to late majority to laggard. That, in fact, there is a chasm. There is a hole. In that hole fell the Apple Newton,

Starting point is 00:09:25 which you probably don't even remember. It turns out the Newton was a success when it first came out. That they sold 100,000 of them in the first month or two. And then it hit the wall. And then it went away. And the reason it went away

Starting point is 00:09:41 is it fell into the chasm. And you need to see the chasm, be prepared for the chasm, walk into the chasm knowing that getting to the other side is a lot more difficult than it looks. Or you can happily dance with the early adopters. One thing that's fascinating about Tim's career is what a great job he did from the very first book of going from the geeks, the nerds, the early adopters who were hacking their lifestyle all the way across the chasm

Starting point is 00:10:13 to a half a billion downloads. And the third strategy book is called Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke. Yes, that Annie Duke, world poker champion. And the first chapter alone will change your life. Thinking in bets helps us understand what it actually means to make a decision. Because decisions and outcomes are different things. And a good decision may very well lead to a lousy outcome. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good decision. Two more books and then I'll let you go back to Hacking Your Lifestyle. These books touched me at an emotional level. In my book, Your Turn, I tried to capture some of this energy, but the women who wrote these two books can do it far better than I ever could. The first one is a poem. It's now in a new format. I

Starting point is 00:11:06 published it in its original format. It's a poem called Bee, and it's by Sarah Kay. The one and only Sarah Kay, spoken word maestro. You can see her TED Talk. It's the only TED Talk I've ever seen that was interrupted by a standing ovation. Bee is a simple poem from a mother to her daughter. And I have to confess, I get choked up every single time I read it. If you've got a mother or if you've got a daughter, this is a great gift, a great book to share with them. And the last book I'll talk about is by a woman who has changed my life since the day I met her. Her name is Jacqueline Novogratz. The book is The Blue Sweater. Her next book is coming out early 2020. I hope you'll look for it. The Blue Sweater is the true story of how one woman has decided to change philanthropy, capitalism, development, and the way two billion poor people who just happen to

Starting point is 00:12:07 be poor, they don't deserve to be poor, two billion people who are currently poor, engage with markets, engage with the privileged part of the world, and engage with each other. The Blue Sweater begins with an astonishing story about just how small our world is. When Jacqueline was growing up, I believe it was in Virginia, she used to wear the sweater her uncle had given her. It was a blue sweater that had some mountain ranges needle-pointed on it. Well, after being humiliated in high school, she and her mom brought it to the Goodwill box and dumped it in there. Fast forward 10 years later. She is jogging in Rwanda at 6 o'clock in the morning, and she sees a kid across the street in Rwanda.

Starting point is 00:12:58 She chases the kid down the street, which must have been frightening indeed, catches up to him, grabs him by the collar, and looks on the inside of the street, which must have been frightening indeed, catches up to him, grabs him by the collar and looks on the inside of the sweater. And there, written in marker, is her name, all the way across the world. This world we live in, it doesn't have enough dignity. It doesn't have enough connection. That the gifts we share need to be based on abundance. It's not, I don't have it because you have it. It's, now we both have it. And what the Acumen Fund has done is built a different model of how people can engage with one another to make change happen.

Starting point is 00:13:39 So that's my list of books. Books about strategy, books about inspiration, books about how we live our lives. But one thing that I have learned from a lifetime of being in the book business is that the book business isn't a business. It's a passion and an organized hobby. It's a chance for just 20 bucks to own something that you can keep on your shelf and go back to again and again. There's a Proustian reaction I have when I see a book. It's not the same when it's on audio or Kindle. But I don't care how you consume these ideas. I just hope that you do and then that you

Starting point is 00:14:18 live them and share them. Because seeing the world as it is, and then choosing to make it better, I don't know what more we could ask for. Thanks for listening to me today. Go make your ruckus. Hi, I'm Esther Perel. I'm a psychotherapist, an author, a TED speaker, and a podcast host. If you haven't read my books, Mating in Captivity or The State of Affairs, you may actually recognize my voice from my podcast, Where Should We Begin? where I bring you into my office to listen in on real-life couples therapy sessions or my newest Spotify project, Housework, which brings lessons from couples therapy to the corner office. All my work involves helping individuals, couples, co-founders, family members, colleagues deal with the hidden dimensions or the hidden forces that underlie relationship dynamics because I believe that it is the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our

Starting point is 00:15:20 lives and that cultivating relational intelligence today is a new bottom line and certainly in the workplace. I'm here to honor Tim, who's been a friend and a most wonderful collaborator, and all his many listeners. And I want to share with you a few books that have shaped the way I think about relational intelligence. I've deliberately chosen books, actually, that have very little to do with the business world. I come from intelligence. I've deliberately chosen books actually that have very little to do with the business world. I come from psychology. I work as a psychologist. But every one of these books is going to give you, or at least has given me, tremendous insight into our life, both at home, at work, and I would say in our society at large.

Starting point is 00:16:03 Because I work with people who are in situations that are highly contentious, groups, individuals, teams, co-founders, the book of Marshall Rosenberg, Nonviolent Communication, A Language of Life, has been really a classic. It's actually a book that doesn't age. But the reason that book spoke to me is because as a child of two Holocaust survivors, I've often lived with this one question. In fact, not often. I think this question has followed me my whole life. What is it that disconnects us from our compassionate nature and leads us to behave violently and exploitatively? But on the other end, what is it that allows some people to stay connected

Starting point is 00:16:46 to their compassionate nature in the most challenging of circumstances? The way that this book highlights the importance of language, the speaking and the listening, the language that soothes and repairs, and the language that creates ruptures that are often beyond repair. I think that this book is a classic for anyone who is thinking relationships. Fighting for Your Marriage by Howard Markman, Scott Stanley, and Susan Blumberg. On its surface, it's a book about marriage, of course, but you just go one layer deeper and it's a study of the underlying issues that shape the way that we relate, both with my couples and my corporate clients. I quite often pull from Markman's theories to assess what's really going on behind the manifest. And it's very simple to capture is

Starting point is 00:17:39 this. Underneath many of the relational impasses or conflicts, you're going to find three major dynamics. A fight about power and control, a fight about care and closeness, and a fight about respect and recognition. So it's either about power, about trust, or about integrity. I think that those three dimensions pretty much stand at the helm of our relational lives. So that book will help many people personally as well as professionally. Can Love Last? The Fate of Romance Over Time by Stephen Mitchell. Mitchell's book was part of the spine of my book, Mating in Captivity, because he highlighted an inherent tension that spoke a great deal to me. And it's the tension in how we

Starting point is 00:18:27 try today to reconcile in one relationship, two fundamental sets of human needs, the need for stability, our need for safety, for security, together with the need for change, passion, novelty, and mystery. These two sets of needs that he describes so well that spring from different sources and also pull us in different directions. How we straddle security and adventure, tradition and change, familiarity and novelty, comfort and edge, I think today is a central challenge for couples as well as for companies. It's a little philosophical book. It really requires sitting, but it's a gem of a book. And he died an untimely death at 53. And so in many ways, I have often found that I was able to give voice to some of these ideas posthumously.

Starting point is 00:19:20 Every one of the books that I'm thinking here are books that really shaped my thinking. They shifted the paradigm for me. I came one way and I finished the book and left another way. And Zygmunt Bauman's book, Liquid Life, is another one like that. His description of nomadism gave me a whole new path of thinking. Because he looks at nomadism as this trait of our liquid life where we flow through life like a tourist, where we change places and jobs and spouses and values, including our religious and our professional affiliations.

Starting point is 00:19:55 What he highlights is how we've dismantled the traditional structures and networks that used to give us support, and now we live in a precarious life under conditions of constant uncertainty, where the burdens of the self have never been heavier. I would be remiss if I didn't bring in my own mentor, Salvador Mnuchin, who was the founder of structural family therapy, came from theories of communications and systems thinking, because it is probably the foundation of much of my thinking. You can read family healing. You can read structural family therapy, which is the real theoretical basis of it. It will change your whole way of understanding relationships.

Starting point is 00:20:39 But I think what it really did for me is I used to come and think about problems from an individualistic point of view. And he gave me a map for thinking about relationships systemically, tracking the invisible rules that govern the maps of relationship between people. How do we actually go about disrupting dysfunctional relationship patterns, be they couples or families or in organizations? And how do we help people switch them to healthier ones? This idea that pathology isn't necessarily inside the person, but created by what happens between the two people. Or the idea that in relationships, it's easy to look for a villain and a victim, but it isn't necessarily so. What I can say is that every one of these books is in my mind

Starting point is 00:21:29 when I do the sessions for housework. It is how I think. It is what leads me to do the interventions that I do. And I hope that you will enjoy these books as much as I do. I thank you for listening. And I would like to just ask you a couple of relational intelligence questions. What are some of the stories that you tell yourself that don't serve you anymore? Give me a time when you changed your mind. What would you say is the best piece of advice that you've ever received? Would you say that you were raised more for autonomy or for loyalty? Enjoy the readings and enjoy the conversations. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday.

Starting point is 00:22:26 Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've

Starting point is 00:22:56 read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This podcast is brought to you by Hugh, as in human, H-U. Hugh. Hugh, founded by family trio Jason Karp, his wife Jessica, and his brother-in-law Jordan Brown. Started off as a paleo-inspired restaurant in New York City in 2012. I actually came across that restaurant when I was doing a book launch, staying at the Ace Hotel, and thought to myself, this is the best place I've ever found

Starting point is 00:23:43 in New York City. It's just incredible. And now they make amazing plant-based healthy snacks, including their award-winning paleo slash vegan dark chocolate. I discovered the chocolate a few years ago and got totally hooked on my podcast road trip to Kern State Prison. I was going to do a podcast behind the wall inside a maximum security prison, which I did. At the time, Jason Karp, the co-founder I mentioned, Peter Tia, and others were all in the same car. And Jason brought a case of huge chocolate for our four-hour ride.

Starting point is 00:24:14 I ate a ton of these bars, at least four of these bars in one sitting. And I didn't crash, which was sort of miraculous to me. Maybe it's because, for instance, their simple bar has only three ingredients, organic cacao, organic cacao butter, and organic coconut sugar without any soy or other junk. Or maybe it's just because I was timing them out and eating one bar every 30 minutes. In any case, since then, and because I love their products and their philosophy, I've become an advisor to you. And I've also tried everything.

Starting point is 00:24:47 Their hunks, which are chocolate-covered nuts and berries. The almonds are my favorite. If you're looking there, that's one of my favorites. And their grain-free, keto-friendly crackers. Their stuff is simply delicious and deliciously simple. They really, really pay attention to quality. Their tagline is get back to human because they believe people can feel and perform better when they eat foods with cleaner, simpler, less processed, and less industrial ingredients. They avoid emulsifiers, palm oil, dairy, soy,

Starting point is 00:25:17 or sunflower less than sugar alcohol as a whole list. And everything is certified gluten-free, kosher, and non-GMO. So pretty much if you are trying to avoid something that bugs you, it has already been taken off the table. And the most important thing to remember is their stuff is delicious. Absolutely delicious. I really recommend you try them out

Starting point is 00:25:36 and you can get 15% off your Hue order. Again, that's H-U. Your Hue order by visiting huekitchen.com forward slash Tim, H-U kitchen.com forward slash Tim, H U kitchen.com forward slash Tim and using discount code Tim at checkout. T I M make haste. Their holiday shipping cutoff is December 18th. And these are perfect for the holidays. I'm telling you,

Starting point is 00:25:57 these are the most delicious chocolate bars I've ever had. And I'll get to what I recommend. So get 15% off by visiting hughkitchen.com forward slash Tim and entering discount code Tim, T-I-M at checkout. And on that page, so go, if you want to see one of my favorites, go to hughkitchen.com forward slash Tim. You will see a number of things, including the nut butters gift box. And this includes a number of different bars that have nut butter inside these chocolate squares. You get cashew butter plus vanilla bean. That is the one that I had four bars of on this car ride. You get almond butter plus puffed quinoa. I think I had another two to four of those on that

Starting point is 00:26:38 ride. Then hazelnut butter and cashew butter plus raspberry. But these things are amazing. You will not be disappointed. So check it out. Go to hughkitchen.com forward slash Tim and use promo code Tim to get 15% off.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #402: Books I've Loved — Seth Godin and Esther Perel

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #402: Books I've Loved — Seth Godin and Esther Perel

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