The Tim Ferriss Show - #418: Esther Perel — Tactics for Relationships in Quarantine

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Starting point is 00:08:47 Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, Quarantine Edition, where it is my job every episode, as we know, to interview and deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, to tease out the habits, routines, and so on, tactics that you can emulate, apply, test in your own lives. This episode, much like many recent episodes, is going to be a little unusual because of its various points of focus. But my guest is, I suppose on some levels, also unusual, but a friend of mine who's been on before, that is Esther Perel, psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author. Esther Perel on Instagram at Esther Perel Official, that's E-S-T-H-E-R-P-E-R-E-L, is recognized as one of today's most insightful and original voices on modern relationships.

Starting point is 00:09:39 Fluent in nine languages, that is not me misspeaking, nine, count them nine, that's all of your fingers minus one. She homes a therapy practice in New York City and serves as an organizational consultant for Fortune 500 companies around the world. Her celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 30 million views, and her international bestseller, Mating in Captivity, subtitled Unlocking Erotic Intelligence, has been translated into nearly 30 languages. Her newest book is the New York Times bestseller, The State of Affairs, Rethinking Infidelity. Esther is also an executive producer and host of the popular podcast, Where Should We Begin and How's Work? You can learn more about her

Starting point is 00:10:15 at estherperel.com or by following at estherperelofficial on Instagram. You can also hear my first interview with Esther, which ended up being one of the most popular episodes of the year at Tim.blog forward slash Esther. That's E-S-T-H-E-R. And without further preamble, Esther, welcome back to the show. I didn't know that our first conversation together was so popular. That's nice to hear. So it's nice to be back. It was. You're an MVP. And I want to give people some context to place us in a certain time, certain places, because we were chatting before we started recording, and you were saying that I'm catching you at a raw moment. And I think a lot of people are feeling that way to different degrees. Could you just tell us what today looked like for you and perhaps how you are feeling, how we are finding you right now before we jump into the questions and answers and so on?

Starting point is 00:11:14 Hmm. It's been actually a day not unlike the days that I've been here in quarantine. I do all my therapy sessions online. I am seeing couples in quarantine all over the globe, families, two, three generations of families in a home together. People navigating divorce and separation and the shuttling of children in the midst of lockdown. And it's a, you know, it's not that I haven't done online sessions. It's just that an entire day in people's living rooms, bedrooms, cars, the places where they try to find some moment of some space for privacy. It's intense. Then I had a supervision session with 23 practicing clinicians talking about what's happening to them, how is our work changed,

Starting point is 00:12:15 what are we hearing in our offices, what are the main themes, how are we taking care of ourselves while we're taking care of others, how much volunteer work we're doing with people who, you know, cannot pay for therapy anymore, et cetera. And then I did a session just before you of a couple with a teenage daughter of which she's in Germany and they've been living apart. He's been in Italy, red zone.

Starting point is 00:12:37 And she basically told him to come back within two hours. He was on a plane and that's it. For the first time in a year, they're living together for three weeks in lockdown and and interestingly it's giving them an opportunity to actually work through some of the things that the long distance relationship had conveniently made in a way managed to not make them deal with. And you have silver linings. You have these opportunities in the midst of constraints. So that's been my day so far.

Starting point is 00:13:12 And then come you, dear Tim. Then starts the inquisition of the interview. I'll try to make it as sort of user-friendly as possible. No, I'm really looking forward, actually. First of all, because I know you have good questions often, and your audience as well,

Starting point is 00:13:36 and I just thought it'll kind of be the summary of the day and the summary of a lot of thoughts of the last two weeks, for that matter. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation as well. And I know we had to reschedule due to some of the chaos on my side also. So I appreciate the flexibility. And I've really been looking forward to it.

Starting point is 00:13:57 I'm in quarantine. I am with my girlfriend and my dear dog. And we've been in quarantine for more than four weeks now. And that's partially because I have pre-existing pulmonary issues. So I've been exceptionally cautious. But nonetheless, I think that many of the questions that will be asked are questions that I would have asked you over a bottle of wine anyway. So I'm looking forward to the conversation. And I suppose before we jump into some questions that I have and questions from my audience, I would love to just hear from you what patterns you're seeing in interacting with so many couples in quarantine, so many couples who are either together and facing challenges,

Starting point is 00:14:48 apart and facing maybe a different set of challenges. What are some of the things that you've seen, perhaps that are noteworthy or surprising to you? I think that when people live under acute stress or when people live with prolonged uncertainty or what I would add this week, which I probably would not have been so keen to talk about last week, is when people are experiencing a growing sense of grief that they are living with. Grief for the loss of normalcy, grief for the world that they've known, grief for a future that they thought they could imagine and that they currently can't. In all these situations, tensions rise. And it exacerbates the differences that are already existing between two people

Starting point is 00:15:46 and particularly their coping styles. So people are either coming in to my office and our offices, I would say in general, with feeling more together in with their efficient complementarity. There's a good kind of merging of the differences in styles or there can be more polarizing and each one is kind of looking at the other person's way of handling things as as a threat you're going out is a threat the way that you are not being careful the way that you are being uber careful is funny it's less funny at at this moment. I mean, it's funny. Every day the answer will change at this moment. But, you know, I can't read one more piece of information.

Starting point is 00:16:32 You know, here is another piece I just read. You want to listen to the latest episode of that. And the other person says, I am, you know, I can't, I can't ingurgitate any more information. What you often get in this, in when you have this kind of uncertainty in front of you is that people can argue as if one of them is sure. And it's a kind of a fake certainty in the face of uncertainty and unknown that you will hear in couples. That's one major dynamic.

Starting point is 00:17:10 And then you have, I think, one of the more interesting things that I would describe is what has been called in the disaster literature the principle of continuity. And the principle of continuity is that when people are faced with the kind of situation that we have right now with COVID-19 and this mass loss of safety and security on a global level, people divide along those who emphasize routine and those who emphasize emergency. Those who are trying to preserve the consistency of their life as best they can and those who are in upheaval and that everything can change. Those who think the structure matters, the kids should continue the rules,

Starting point is 00:17:52 the schedule should stay in place. And those who are thwarting the rules because the world is nothing like it was a week ago. And so what's the point of maintaining that structure? There's a whole new normal. And that distinction on the principle of continuity is a very useful concept to look at how people deal with the situation. I mean, I can go on, but then explain this concept, but let me stop right here. Well, this provides us with plenty to chew on and think about. And I would imagine, like a lot of people who are listening, these images, these scenes from my own life are popping up as you're giving these different examples. I'm asking myself, am I A or am I B? Or am I both, depending on the day? And I would love to hear,

Starting point is 00:18:50 feel free to take this in a different direction if you like, but if we're looking specifically at this concept of, and could you just say it one more time? I remember continuity, but the principle of continuity is that, I can't remember the exact phrasing that you used, but if you have those who want to maintain continuity and those who say to themselves and perhaps those around them, the rules have changed. The new normal is not the old normal. It doesn't make sense to continue with, say, the kids trying to follow the same lesson plan they were a month ago or two months ago. If you think to your own experience, if you call to mind a couple you've

Starting point is 00:19:27 spoken to trying to navigate this and finding friction because they have these two different styles, what do you do to work with them? What types of questions do you ask? Or how do you try to help them find some degree of harmony with such seemingly polar opposite positions? I mean, the first thing you do here is you basically provide people with a framework and you tell them this is what is often called anticipatory trauma or anticipatory grief. That sense, you know, of foreboding. We're a little bit in a horror film, in the beginning of a horror film, in which the set has been set up and the cast and the characters have been outlined, but the action hasn't started.

Starting point is 00:20:16 It's just about to start. And until now, there was more of an option for denial. And people could just, because it's so difficult for us to imagine an invisible danger. And danger usually is something you feel and see. It's a threat. And therefore, your reptilian brain reacts. A danger that you don't see, it's very hard to make people change their entire life in relation to that. So the first thing I say is I normalize. I tell people, this is what happens around a disaster.

Starting point is 00:20:52 You know, there's four stages. There's the warning. There's the planning. There's the actual event. And then there is the aftermath. You, for example, you were very active during the warning. And many people kind of looked at you like strange. What is he talking about?

Starting point is 00:21:13 You know, he's just hypervigilant, et cetera. And then they caught up with you, some of them, during the warning. And some of them may catch up with you in the next phase. So I give a framework and I say, there is a literature out there. This is not the first disaster. This is not the first epidemic. This is not the first natural disaster.

Starting point is 00:21:36 And in some way, it kind of highlights a perpetual rule, which is that we are all vulnerable to being randomly exterminated at any time. You know, and this time it's a virus, so it could be a war or an accident. I mean, it really puts us in touch with that which we may not be able to control. So I talk about that fear that comes from that and in many couples one person is actually more in touch with that sense that they have a structured purposeful proactive approach and they often will then see the other person as more passive and more fatalistic you know

Starting point is 00:22:21 for example I remember working you know with people who had been in their apartments during the Gulf War and there were the scud attacks and they would put their gas masks on. And so you had some families where things were very clearly organized. Everyone had a role. The anxiety was really managed. Parents knew where to put the mask on who. And then you had other people who basically said, if the scud hits the building, the building falls anyway. So what's the point? And they had this kind of what would have been perceived as indifference. But in fact, it was probably an expression of such fear and fatalism that they didn't really get into gear. I think, I hope, for example, that your girlfriend, and this is really a classic, in some situations, one partner was laughing at the other one stocking up. And in some situations, one partner basically said, I'm so freaked out by that I can't even get my head data, knows that I have very, very,

Starting point is 00:23:28 very good sources of information and was willing to, with some hesitation, of course, because all of her friends were calling us completely insane, follow my lead, and we were able to work together. But that's, at least in my peer group and my friends, that's been reasonably rare. There's been a lot more friction. I think it makes it a lot easier for us that we do not have kids. There's no school. There are fewer variables like that to complicate things. So it was on some level, I was talking with my colleagues, one of them, you know, she does her sessions in the car. She has three kids at home that she needs to school and she needs to cook and she needs to manage a whole private practice and she needs to have a minute maybe to herself.

Starting point is 00:24:34 It's like, you know, and the other one was basically, you know, she's also with a small one and she found this magician who was willing to do these sessions online and she has a grandmother in the Ukraine and another grandmother somewhere else. And she's basically doing babysitting with the grandmothers online. It's just an amazing set of situations like this. But the deeper question of how people deal with fragility, with the unknown, with mortality, with grief, with uncertainty. That is not different because you have kids or not kids.

Starting point is 00:25:12 Even though, you know, I just did this session with a Sicilian couple for the podcast, Where Should We Begin? And she's a midwife. She goes every day to the hospital. She delivers babies. she has to report in in italy midwife is part of the medical system um and she comes home and if a person comes in with fever i mean she has three young children in the house and he's thinking you know what are you bringing home um he's taking care of the kids.

Starting point is 00:25:47 So you have the practical piece, but the existential piece is that he's thinking, what is the world that I'm raising my children in? And then I say to her, do you share his despair? And she says, no, because when I bring a baby into the world, I still think it is this magnificent, miraculous moment. And I think it's tempting to stay focused on the practical stocking up, you know, preparation piece here, the washing of the hands, all the consignments that we have received. I think it's much deeper when you engage with people in a conversation about loss, you know, about, so continuity, for example, when I think of the principle of continuity, and Nachi Alon, my friend in Israel, actually

Starting point is 00:26:32 is the one from whom I learned this, it's divided around three things. So one is role continuity, right? It's basically the way that the structure, the structure, the way that you do tasks, that you solve problems. Can you, like you, you're a data person and you have continued to read data and that is part of your role continuity. But the second level of continuity is the relational continuity. It's really basically how people stay in touch. There is nothing that's going to help us more in this moment than social cohesion and mutual support. So how do people stay in touch? You know, not everybody is in a harmonious situation of relationship. Some people have to go home 3,000 miles away back to a family from where they fled because it was so violent and unhealthy.

Starting point is 00:27:22 And other people are living by themselves. And so relationship. And the third continuity, which I think is really the interesting one here, is what is called the historical continuity. It's the stories that we've grown up with, you know, the stories from our indigenous traditions, from our families, from our religious backgrounds, culture, that have told us how people have overcome adversity, stories of vulnerability and triumph that we grew up with, that existed in our family, and that are kind of transitional pathways, we call them, to help us in this moment, so that we can imagine a future. And this is where I really find a lot of people, you know, have you had other losses?

Starting point is 00:28:09 Have there been moments in your family? Has your family experienced other disasters? Have you ever experienced this kind of cataclysmic moments like this? One of my, you know, I mean, one of my moments, I can tell you super personally, it's like, I grew up, you know, with these Holocaust survivor parents and their whole group, and there was all these conversations about how did they know when to leave Germany, those who left? How did they know it was time to go, you know? And my kids, you know, at some point, I discussed with them coming home, not coming home, they're 23 and 26, you know? and my kids, you know, at some point I discussed with them coming home, not coming

Starting point is 00:28:46 home, they're 23 and 26, you know, and at one point I said to one of them who wanted to go back to town, to New York City, and I said, look, from where I come from, you know, I would not be able to live with myself that I let you go back to the city. My whole life I grew up with this story of, you know, they could have left and they didn't, you know, but maybe he's and they didn't, you know. But maybe he's right and it doesn't fit the current reality. But this is one of the historical continuity that lives inside of me from which I am organizing my reality. So I've been away for two and a half weeks too.

Starting point is 00:29:20 Not as soon as you, but sooner than others. How did you handle that situation with your child wanting to go back to New York City? What was the, after you said that? He left. He said, I know this is your story, but I, and he's very careful. And he said, I will be better off at home. I'm trying to finish college on top of it. You know, this is a kid whose second day of kindergarten was 9-11 and his final semester of college is coronavirus. So he's bookmarked with historical events, his whole education. And seriously, and we had this

Starting point is 00:29:58 whole conversation. And in the end, he's 23. You know, I, at 23, was making my decisions too. And in the same way that some of us have 80-year-old parents who are making their decisions and are not listening to us, and not me, but others, he went back. He went back. And, you know, we talk every day and have another one in London, you know. It's not the most. I did bring him out of New Orleansleans i did succeed in doing that i said you can you know at least come come up north you know um not because i am sure that i'm right that's the other thing i said i don't know if one is better than the other i just know the place from which my fear and my decision-making process at this point emerges. And all your resident fears, all those fears that live inside of you that are usually nicely tucked away, I promise you they will come out in situations like this.

Starting point is 00:30:59 It's the residue. The attic opens up. Yeah. you know the attic opens up yeah i i've i've personally definitely noticed that where there have been moments in the last few weeks where my response has been so strong and or a certain sort of high frequency stress has lasted so much longer than I would expect, given the inputs, that the only way I could explain it was this is coming from somewhere in the past. This is some type of echo that is... And could you identify it?

Starting point is 00:31:37 I tried. I tried. And I did have some assistance with some of this uh which we can talk about if you'd like but uh may get into tricky territory if you went on a journey for it uh yes yeah we'll leave we'll leave it at that and i identified a uh memories from, this specifically relates to shortness of breath and tightness in the chest and acute fear related to that. And I did have a fever and shortness of breath and a dry cough for a period of about 36 hours a week ago. So there was a period of time leading up to that, culminating with that, that put me in a very significant state of duress. And my best guess, based on what I was able to gather from my own memories,

Starting point is 00:32:35 is a childhood asthma, difficulty breathing caused by some pre-existing pulmonary issues, effectively ending up last in something we have in the US called, or we used to have, called the presidential fitness test, where you'd have to run a mile and do these various things, and I would always come in close to last, and I would just feel like I was about to die. And also specifically, this memory that I had of waking up in the middle of the night when I was, let's just say somewhere between seven and 10 years old, being unable to breathe. And just for whatever reason, being unable to breathe, there was a lot of mold and a lot of allergens in my house growing up for a whole host of reasons.

Starting point is 00:33:18 And I woke up unable to breathe and was unable to breathe for about a minute. I burst into my parents' room as the middle of the night and couldn't say anything, couldn't breathe, couldn't do anything. And then it suddenly just broke and I was able to breathe, but it was at the point of blacking out basically. And I don't know if that's a causal factor, a one-to-one causal factor,

Starting point is 00:33:42 but it seems to be, some of those experiences seem to be lending themselves to magnifying certain things now that's my working hypothesis but i don't know that you need to call it a causal factor it's an embodied memory you know and we have explicit memory and we have implicit memory right so the implicit memory, right? So the explicit memory is you kind of, you remember, you can, it's conscious. The implicit memory lives in your body. It's not necessarily articulated and in words, but then, you know, this thing rises and comes toward you and it activates the embodied memory. And people are having dreams people are having nightmares and people

Starting point is 00:34:27 in journeys are uncovering all kinds of things i mean um i am surrounded by that and it makes total sense because that it's the personal historical continuity if you want and it's uh it's what connects you to prior experiences of powerlessness, of loss of control, of mortality, of constriction, you know, constraints in the metaphoric sense, not just the, I mean, the breath is the basic of basic, you know. So I'm not surprised. And surprised if you ask me what I would say with people it's this, the first thing is you elicit the memory you normalize it you name it

Starting point is 00:35:14 I'm giving names to things so that people have a vocabulary with which to then talk with the people around them and I go and I mine the stories that people carry inside of them. You know, like what was told to you afterwards by your parents about this event? How has this event been described in your childhood afterwards? Could you run us through an example, perhaps? Or just use a past experience, past client, a mean, you've just actually described it when you talked about the running, you know, did you grow up with an image

Starting point is 00:36:15 of yourself as I'm not athletic, physicality is not my strength, you know, that's not, my mind is stronger than my body, for example, or, you know, my mother, for example, always described my brother as he was the fragile one, he was the sickly one, you know, people, those words become a part of your self-description for a while, until you change it, it's not edged in stone, but it lives on for quite a long time. You know, I have an image of myself as robust, you know, but I also think that if ever something was to hit me, it will knock me over. I will not have small boo-boos, you know, I will have big things. And I can put myself in the seat of patience for a moment. It's like, I live with that idea that things can disappear overnight. It's part of my history. And that you can just,

Starting point is 00:37:14 today you're walking around, that's the descriptions you're hearing these days. Yesterday he was still running in the park. And here he was and he's gone. And it's like it goes so fast, it doesn't fit. And so I have that image. I think of myself as someone who yesterday will be running in the park and today will be gone. What am I doing with people? A lot of the things I do have to do with writing letters to your parents. This is the moment if you've got things to say, you got to say them and don't wait. Understand that some of your parents who are much, much older and have gone through all kinds of things in some way,

Starting point is 00:37:59 are maybe less scared of dying than boomers and millennials. In some interesting way, they figure at some point everybody must go. That they may have experienced other adversity that in some way makes this not necessarily the thing that is frightening them the most. Or that they have gone through other epidemics, earthquakes, tsunamis, you name it. And they have dealt with loss massively, and they know that you continue living afterwards. So they're not willing to stop playing golf or to stop playing cards or to go indoors. And you're like, you know, pulling your hair, but they're not necessarily listening. I am talking with parents about how to talk to their kids

Starting point is 00:38:45 so it's a range now we're going in all ages of children so you have the let's start from the older you know the first of all if you're going to go back home and you already are an adult you need to understand that many times family visits are processing you know experiences of regression just so you get used to that. You will feel like you were an adult until you entered the house of your family. And then, so I talk with them about that, about how you're going to not turn this now into a moment of having to prove that you've really grown up. Sorry, if I could just pause you for a second. It makes me think of the very recently late Ram Dass' quote of,

Starting point is 00:39:27 if you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family. Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. Yes, yes. That's a fantastic line. I mean, it's like, you know, people are telling you, I went home and it's like, they don't want to listen to me and I brought all this stuff and they don't want to wear it. And I'm like, it's like, you know, it's very granular, you know.

Starting point is 00:39:44 One comes home and all he wants to talk about is being with his friends and and the parents are like all upset because he doesn't want and i'm like no no instead of feeling rejected that he doesn't want to be with you this is your perfect moment to talk with your kid about the importance of friendships and what it's meant to be in college or wherever they are now, developing new connections and why it's so disruptive. You know, what we're dealing with is massive disruption. And so you talk with people about how the multitude of responses that we have to this disruption.

Starting point is 00:40:19 And instead of blaming your kids or getting all angry that all they think about is friends, use this as an opportunity to talk about friendship, to talk about your friends, to talk about the importance of community, whatever it is. But there are really incredible opportunities for deepening at this moment. That is actually one of the beautiful things happening. People are spending more time together. At the end of a day online, they actually don't want more online.

Starting point is 00:40:45 At the end of learning the whole day for distant learning on their iPads, they don't want to watch another series at night. They actually want to play a game. So it's all these paradoxical moments. And, you know, what I can tell you is that the multitude of family situations that has presented itself to me in these two weeks is just mind-boggling. How are you going to deal with the shuffling of the children with your ex, you know, the person who just began dating someone, but they suddenly are living together because, you know, what disruption and impending disaster does is it accelerates everything. It functions like an amazing accelerator. We all know that in the aftermath of disaster, there will be more babies, more marriages and more divorces.

Starting point is 00:41:42 You know, it's either what are we waiting? Life is short. What are we waiting for? Let's make a baby. It's either life is short. I've waited long enough. Let's leave. You know, it's like you are meeting a place

Starting point is 00:41:56 where suddenly your priorities get reorganized and the superfluous gets thrown overboard and you feel like you're touching the essence. You know, you don't know what's going to be. So you want to really hone in on the few things superfluous gets thrown overboard and you feel like you're touching the essence you know that you you don't know what's going to be so you want to really hone in on the few things that matter to you a lot so I have a lot of these kinds of conversations with people you know people telling me this is you know I've not really had integrity for the last few years and I feel like this has kind of rung an alarm to me that I want

Starting point is 00:42:25 to, I want to be more honorable again. I want to not just think about money, business success, et cetera. I want to think more about the people that matter to me. And another one who talks about, you know, I've been wanting to be, do art for so long. And this maybe is the opportunity for me to, to rethink what's important to me. There's a lot of rethinking what's important to me at this moment and who is important to me. And there's a lot of people calling their previous therapists. That's a classic thing that happens around disaster. It happened after 9-11 as well. People who reconnect with someone that knew them before.

Starting point is 00:43:01 And then people who are calling people in Europe in asia you know who they haven't spoken to in a long time and people are calling they're talking they're not just texting they want to hear voice all of that is happening i'm giving you a bucket full but it's uh it comes at me as a bucket as well well there's a lot to there's a lot to explore in the bucket. And on one hand, it seems like we have these philosophical existential questions. We have this glimpse of perhaps mortality that is often receded in the background that allows us to see the finite nature of our time that helps to bring out the essence, as you said. And then you have these tactically challenging situations for a lot of people. And you mentioned one that I would love to highlight and get your opinion on, and that is someone who is saying sharing custody with an ex. And I have a friend of a friend who, so she lives with her, I think it's daughter, along with her elderly parents. She shares custody of that daughter with her ex.

Starting point is 00:44:13 And her ex is not being as careful as she is. And is, at least from her perspective, perhaps acting somewhat… Irresponsibly. Yeah, irresponsibly. They're in different circumstances, but she's very concerned, not for her own health necessarily, not even for her daughter's health necessarily, because... But for her parents.

Starting point is 00:44:36 But for her parents, exactly. Although, I mean, I do think, just to point out that that in the US at least, a fairly high percentage of those on respirators are 45 and younger. So it's not entirely biased towards the old entirely. But let's, for the time being, just assume that they are at the greatest risk. How would you suggest she approach having a conversation with her ex? How would you help someone like that if they were your client try to navigate this? Maybe it's not a conversation, maybe it's something else, but how would you help someone in that position navigate that? Tim, I know that our lives are very different and that you really typically do things the way that you do them. And when

Starting point is 00:45:30 our kid comes to stay with you... Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking to me. Actually me. Okay. I got it. So this is what you would say to her. I'm sorry. Yes, yes, yes. This is the conversation that I would suggest that she have with me. I was like, oh no oh no i do things i always do things the way i do them you're right all right so sorry could you just start over so my head isn't like in i can call you john okay yeah john let's do john um john first of all tell me the age of the child i believe let's say child's eight years old. Okay. So, John, you live the life you live. And in normal time when John comes to you, I trust you or I don't always trust you.

Starting point is 00:46:17 But that has not impeded the fact that our kid stays with you, that he eats with you, goes to school with you, drives with you, a lot of things that I typically would probably do differently. But you are who you are. And this is not me coming to ask you to not be to change or to criticize you. This is me sharing with you that I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility and fear at this moment for the many people that are living in my house. And that's why I would like to ask you to please collaborate with me. Would you be willing to help me in this? Not because you are scared, not because you think that washing your hands or doing all the things that we're supposed to do is important i'm not here to convince you of any of that i'm just

Starting point is 00:47:12 asking you if you would be willing for my parents who once were your in-laws and who hopefully that you still fancy or have liked as people all those years, et cetera, I need your help. I need us to put a few ground rules down for the time being because I can't do it without you. That's the hard thing to say suddenly, right? It's like the part of the divorce is I don't need you. But here you're coming to say, I can't do this without you. We are still woven together in some way.

Starting point is 00:47:47 The divorce is the end of the marriage, but it's not the end of the family. And it's a reorganization of the family. And this special circumstance forces us to reorganize yet again, to be more interdependent than we usually have been or want to be. I don't necessarily want it. I doubt you want it either. But if Jimmy is going to come back and forth, I need all his clothes washed. I need him to have one pair of shoes that goes outside. I need to know that you are really careful, no playgrounds, no gyms, no, you know, whatever the things that people have decided is their way of staying really protected. Right.

Starting point is 00:48:34 And you ask for it. You don't tell them. You don't admonish them. You know, you may be right, but it's very unproductive approach. And you just show your fear, your vulnerability, and the fact that you really need them. And you hope that they will collaborate as best as they will. You won't see what they do behind closed doors. Then you're going to talk to your eight year olds. And you're going to say, there's a few things that you're going to need to do as of today

Starting point is 00:49:00 without having daddy or me remind you or tell you. And this is where people are needing to brave talking with their children and not just kind of, you know, try to preserve reality as if it's business as usual. And you tell your eight-year-old at eight, they can, believe you me, understand there's a very, there's a dangerous virus that we are all trying to make sure that we are protected against the best way we can. We're probably all going to have it. We just want to have it at the level that is, that we can manage on our own, basically. And here's what you need to do. And then when they come home, the first thing, you know, the whole thing, but you create a new awareness and a new set of behaviors

Starting point is 00:49:47 that match the awareness. That's very helpful. That's how I do it. Yeah, thank you. You know, it's a real, it's a very important one. It's actually one that I hadn't thought about at first. I wasn't, until it came in front of me and I said, of course, I forgot that one. It's like, you know, how many versions of the story of COVID as it pertains to relationships

Starting point is 00:50:14 am I going to say, oh, I forgot this one. I did have the ones that are living apart and can't meet. I have the ones that are living three generations in the house. I have the ones who are in the process of divorce who are suddenly caught together. And, you know, even a big house will become really tight when you have to still be together and you're on your way gone. I have the ones who have barely met and are suddenly living together. And now came, you know, then I have the same thing in a bigger version where it's adult children in a divorce situation. And it's the adult children who won't let the grandmother come and see the grandchildren because she is in another house with her new partner.

Starting point is 00:50:54 I mean, this thing has many versions. Yeah, many different permutations. Well, let's talk about, thank you for answering that in such detail and giving a template for people, at least an example of how you would use language. And let's talk about two of the more common situations, or at least looking at the questions from my audience, it seems like two of the more common groups. So two people who are in tight quarters together could be more than two people, but let's focus on couples for now. We could talk about kids, of course. And then two people who are separated. So you have, for instance, from Judith H. She asks how couples and families can cope and give each other space when they're quarantined together. And then Greg F. has every tip she has for long distance romance asking for a billion friends now i want to actually modify this slightly and borrow from another question from marad k

Starting point is 00:51:53 which is what are her thoughts on how to take advantage of this crisis and the positive ways people are trying to dot dot dot dot dot dot could, dot, dot, dot. It could be anything. But take advantage of this crisis, I think, is a framing that I like a lot. You don't have to use it. But as that applies to two people together in tight quarters or two people separated and feeling separated, how have you seen people or advised people to sort of take advantage of this crisis?

Starting point is 00:52:26 So there's lots of things that I've told about. So the people together, I mean, let's imagine they're in the same space. So a lot more cooking going on. People are cooking. They're not necessarily ordering out or going out, period. So there's cooking and the whole meaning of cooking. It's like it goes from the, it's so long that I've taken care of people like that, to the guy just in the session I just did.

Starting point is 00:53:04 And it's like she came down for lunch, she cooked, but then she went to eat at her computer. And he just says, you know, I would do the cooking, just spend the 15 minutes with me. I just want us to have moments where we touch base with each other, where you're not kind of retreating completely into your computer.

Starting point is 00:53:22 So there is food. Then there is humor. I think that humor is extremely important in these moments. Um, there is laughter in hell as my father often used to say, and they're, they're bad jokes, but there's a few of them that are just really hilarious. And when you crack up like that at some of the things you, you, you receive some of the videos from abroad that i get i it makes me feel so good it just reminds me that i still can have some perspective that i don't have to just be constantly in the grip then there is um the critical conversations about um about mortality just simply talking about um are you scared? Are you worried?

Starting point is 00:54:07 We're building a studio. I'll leave it in a very personal painting studio for my husband. And, you know, this is meant to be Jack's next phase. He's back into painting. And so it's like, you know, we talk about what that phase represents, what would be lost if he didn't get it, about how eager and how clear he is now that he has to get there as fast as he can, about, you know, one time he brought me a shovel

Starting point is 00:54:36 because he said, you're already digging my grave, so why don't you just start? Very theatrical, yes. You know, he diffuses, he diffuses props you know he diffuses he diffuses you know and i of course i cracked i was like you know it so there is the humor there is the creativity i think people need to paint draw write poems play music sing songs you know the arts have helped us throughout history to to deal with suffering, to deal with fear, to stay connected to our loved ones that are far away, that are at sea,

Starting point is 00:55:10 all of that. You know, people are making playlists, sending music, dancing together through Zoom. You know, it's all these life-affirming, what I call eros, you know, life-affirming experiences. People are having sex, you know, distant sex as well. People are just laying in bed next to each other. It's all happening typically, but now it's happening to people who don't usually, who haven't done it in a long time. It's not that these are new behaviors, you know, happy hours together, drinks, reading out loud to each other. It's very interesting that the kinds of stuff that people are willing to do, you know, these devices, like the first time you said we're going to have a

Starting point is 00:56:00 conversation, we were going to talk about how our devices are keeping us apart and today we're going to talk about how the very devices that have kept us apart are the ones that are keeping us connected it's like in in a very short amount of time now they can do both they can keep us much more lonely and and in the vortex of of the digital as well but But for many people, it really connects. So there's that. Then there is, you know, the people getting more and more reactive, you know, irritable. And to just be able to acknowledge, I'm stressed. I need to go out. This makes me crazy. I don't get enough movement. I don't have enough air. I'm sorry, you know, and there's going to need to be a lot of that modulating and moderating reactivity, just acknowledging it. We know, we know that in

Starting point is 00:56:55 situations of confinement, the tension rises, there is more fragmentation, and domestic violence ramps up. I tell people probably not good to drink. Don't get too stoned and don't drink these days. It's not good if you get sick, but it's certainly not good at this moment, especially if you have a tendency to drink more than you should and that you are the version that becomes a lion rather than a donkey. Not a good idea. Not a good idea. You know, it's like stock up on other stuff. There is the, you know, let the other person be. Their way is just their way.

Starting point is 00:57:36 It's, you don't have, you know, it's really about learning differentiation, accepting that the other person is dealing with the same data from a different stance and that you can't just go ahead and think of them as they're your threat, you know. Then there is, you know, some people have had to say, maybe this is the time to take the medication that you've been trying to talk about. You know, it will help you, you you know it will level you just a tiny bit um so that's been not many times but enough times where i just thought this is the moment you know you need it

Starting point is 00:58:12 now it's a take care of yourself and don't just try to be heroic in this particular moment and then for the people who are apart um i think that a very important thing for all people is really not to stay too focused on the practicalities in general i think long distance relationships do better when people don't spend the evening talking about the nitty-gritty of days pretending that they have just that they're living in the same life they don't but really to connect around more important things um and take a walk in nature together nature suddenly people are walking more than they have in a long time you know now you're talking about virtually on something like facetime yes yes yes i walk with walk with somebody and see them as you walk uh and have them walk and they walk too you know um people walking may i interrupt for

Starting point is 00:59:07 one second yeah yeah so the the talking about more important things and skipping the uh some of the sort of mundane important yes but very uh kind of surface-level tactical. Did we remember to restock the cannellini beans or whatever we're talking about? Do you have any questions or prompts or anything that you might suggest to couples to help them? I'm surprised by who has been calling you or reaching out to you? I mean, I'm getting texts from people that I don't usually hear from. You know, are there people that have surprised you?

Starting point is 00:59:52 Are there people that you have been meaning to connect with and this could be a good moment? You know, that's a very big one these days that people talk about. You know, this one spent some time in Italy 10 years ago and finds herself suddenly talking with people that she knew back then. You know, um, I think that's an interesting one. Um, how, how is your family? You know, how are the different week of friends of mine and people I knew that had siblings who were living in residential treatment centers, people who were in jail, people who were homeless, people who were in vulnerable situations.

Starting point is 01:00:35 I never even knew these siblings existed. I mean, it's like, wow, you know, you're telling me, you know, or things about family situations that I didn't really know. I kind of had a sense. And so don't be scared to ask more and just say, tell me about your brother. Tell me about your sister. Tell me about your mentally ill, you know, whoever. And how are they dealing? Who takes care of them?

Starting point is 01:01:02 You know, tell me about your older your, your, for older people, you know, if I'm not that old, they're in their sixties and early seventies, not old, you know, but with Alzheimer, tell me about those people that you can't go visit, you know, tell me about, it's this, it's, it's, it's, it's going with the next question rather than to stop and just say, what has surprised you? You know, what's the thought of the day for you? You know, what's the thing that really marked you day to day? You know, what have you noticed that you don't usually pay attention to anymore? Things like that. It's not just death and deep and disaster, but it's just more conscientious, more attentive.

Starting point is 01:01:46 What we like to talk about as present, I don't know if that's the word I would always like to use, but just more people are asking, how are you? In ways that they don't typically ask, and they actually want to know. People are signing their texts differently. They're taking a moment to check in, even work meetings. Before people get into the meeting, they kind of take a moment to just say, how are you? How is everybody? Any news? It's just, there is a kind of solidarity, a kind of thinking about the well-being of others that is in the air in a moment like this, allow it. Don't think you're being intrusive. Don't think it's not productive because we've got business to take care of. This is the moment to do all of that. And let me play foil for just a second.

Starting point is 01:02:38 If you ask someone, and I'm guilty of this too, in answering in the following way. How are you? And someone says, family's safe, all things considered, we're good. How are you? Right? And so that's the answer. Right. Which has become a bit of a, among a lot of my friends who feel like they shouldn't complain, for instance. They have no right.

Starting point is 01:03:01 Yeah, they have no right to complain because no one in their family is sick. Therefore, all things considered, everything's great. And then they move on to the next order of business. What would you ask to follow up that question? Or how would you respond to that? You just told me how are things and I'm asking, how are you? Yeah, that's a great response. You know, you just told, I am so glad to know that the facts are in place. How are you?

Starting point is 01:03:28 You know, people who don't think they're allowed to their feelings because they have it good are usually more at risk. What do you mean by that? Because when they then have a feeling, they don't know what to do with it because they shouldn't have it. They shouldn't currently be afraid. They shouldn't currently be anxious. They shouldn't currently be anxious. They shouldn't currently be depressed. They shouldn't currently be sad. They shouldn't currently agree because they have a big house or because their family is healthy or because they have the money that, you know, they're not at risk of losing their job. That's okay. So that's not your worry. That doesn't mean how are you, you know? and sometimes i ask it again i said okay that was that was your um

Starting point is 01:04:07 that's your first degree of answer now i'm gonna ask you again just tell me something how did you sleep are you sleeping are you eating are you tasting the food are you i mean i think that a lot of people who don't have feelings don't sleep. You know, they don't tell you I'm feeling bad. They just tell you I haven't slept very well. And then I say, you know, are you the one? So this is one of my work at my colleagues, you know, at the EPGM. I say, and he hadn't slept. He overslept our meeting this morning.

Starting point is 01:04:39 I said, you don't go to sleep or you wake up? He said, no, I woke up. I said, what happens at four o'clock in the morning? What was it like for you? You know, do you, what were you thinking about? What do you think got you up? You know, it's kind of caught up with you. You know, you've been trying to kind of think I have it all under control.

Starting point is 01:04:58 And then suddenly, you know, the night terror arrives. And we just chatted for three minutes. It's not like I don't do therapy sessions with every person I meet. But I can tell you once we had gotten that, you know, address, then we could actually talk about what we needed to talk about. Rather than, you know, him rallying up and just kind of showing up to be disheveled, ready for work. No, you had a miserable night. And that warrants a minute of acknowledgement. So people who tell me all is good, I say, tell me more.

Starting point is 01:05:42 How do you get there? I wish I could have a little more of that myself on occasion. What happens when you say that to your partner or to the people you're living with, you know? Are you the one that's in the role of being the person who has to cheer everybody up, you know? Or I have on occasion asked two or three people that gave me answers like this

Starting point is 01:06:05 and i just said um is that a role that you've had your whole life that's a very good one you know is that is that the typical way that you are allowed to cope i could also just as you're talking i also thought it could at least with a lot of my friends, if I said, how are you doing? They're like, all things considered, great. Everything's great. And I would say, how are you? And they're like, good. If I said, if I were to ask your wife, how are you, how you're doing, what would she say?

Starting point is 01:06:36 I'd probably get a much more accurate answer. And then sometimes you just say, what does it take for you to get the permission to not have to emphasize the word great? Can you say that one more time? I think that's important what you just said. What does it take for you to finally have the permission not to have to emphasize great? That would take me a while to chew on. Yeah, you don't have to answer me. No, yeah, how don't have to answer me. No, yeah. How do you answer that?

Starting point is 01:07:06 Though I don't want it to be what is the sound of one hand clapping type of koan. When you think about that question, how do you answer that for yourself? Or maybe it's not an issue and therefore it's not a question worth asking. I'm not always feeling the pressure of being great. And I have a range, but I know that people who have the pressure to feel great have also the pressure to make sure that they don't feel nothing, small, like nothingness. On the other side of great is often depression and nothingness. Right. I see what you're saying. Right. It's not-

Starting point is 01:07:44 You can't be feeling great at this moment. Right. I see what you're saying. Right. You can't be feeling great at this moment. Yeah. I mean, you're out of touch with reality if you're feeling great. You can feel relieved. You can feel thankful. You can feel appreciative for what you have. You can feel humble. You can feel thankful to things, but you can't feel great in this moment. Because if you're feeling great in this moment, you're detached. You're disconnected. That's really what I would say. But, you know, I also know that some people don't feel internally that they have the permission to feel anything but great.

Starting point is 01:08:22 On top of things. In control, in charge. charge i got us i got this you know no you got nothing you don't you know let me tell you something after 9-11 the people who came down the tower and lived with a world view that shit happens did a lot better and we're a lot less likely to experience ptsd than the people who came down the towers and live with a worldview that says you're in charge destiny is in your hands yeah that's um that makes perfect sense to me you understand it? It's like the humility ultimately gives you flexibility.

Starting point is 01:09:09 The great, when bad things then happen, when shit hits the fan to someone who must be great, even at the moment when it's impossible to feel great, it breaks them. And that's what I'm saying to people. I'm not turning them into mush or anything. I'm just saying it's okay. It's okay not to feel great in a time like this. It's either your work, your health, the market, the economy, the vision for the future. I am much more okay when I say to someone, how are you doing?

Starting point is 01:09:43 And it says, I've been working very hard. I want to make sure the company doesn't go under. I want to make sure. And I have a guy I spoke to two days ago. He just laid off 200 people out of 204. That's a conversation. And I said to him, oh, this was an amazing moment. So, you know, I'm a girlfriend of his wife.

Starting point is 01:10:02 And we were chatting. And I was actually quite upset in that moment. And then she told me this, and I said, hey, I picked up the phone, and I said, I just want you to know, I know how much you care about your workers. I can't imagine what a hard thing that must have been for you to do. And I know, I mean, I haven't seen this guy cry ever. This is on the phone. I didn't see him. I heard it. I heard it.

Starting point is 01:10:25 I knew it. It's just, I just, you know, and I also know that they're 204 and that even though it looked like you're protected, you're not because it's not yours. But then he starts talking to me. I've never seen this man talk so much. I called every one of my managers. I mean, it was so heart-wrenching. It was honorable. It was hard. It was done with integrity. And then the next thing, I get a text from her. I said, you don't understand what you just did. It's like you

Starting point is 01:10:59 just knew exactly what to say. And the thing was, I know how hard this must have been for you. That's when I say deepening the conversation. I could have talked about, you know, how much money the company has. And I could have talked about other things. But it's not important. At this moment, really, this guy just let go 200 people who, you know, won't have jobs. After that, you stay quiet. Like you and me, I stay quiet.

Starting point is 01:11:34 It's not like this. You just let it sink for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of really difficult decisions, difficult conversations, difficult actions that living alone or in quarantine alone. I know that I know friends who are practicing or by mandate in isolation at home by themselves. Do you have anything you've learned with your patients that you could pass on to those people. I can't personally imagine being alone right now. I do very, even though I spent the majority of my life isolating myself,

Starting point is 01:12:35 which not terribly surprising, also suffering with bouts of depression, now that I've become over the last five years a more social creature i find the prospect very daunting of of having of being alone during this time and i i would love to know what you would say or what you do say to those people i um so i i'm like i was literally looking. I just got a message from one of my closest friends who lives alone. Okay. I think that there are people who live alone, but they're not lonely.

Starting point is 01:13:18 They're connected. They have a circle of friends. They have family, friends, whatever. They have a network, a system, a support system. And they chose possibly for all kinds of reasons, or they have to, to not to quarantine by themselves. And for those people, I basically say keep everything as vibrant as you can. You know, have dinner with other people it's very interesting you know um online online everything online of course but um a few times a

Starting point is 01:13:54 day make sure that you've had you know that you've touched base with people um write write and hand write actually if you can then just, take a picture of it and send. I think it's a, it's a very interesting moment to actually bring back some of the, you know, our earlier epistolary exchanges, you know, before you just send another email. But I think that the distinction for me is between people who are alone and lonely, or people who are lonely and not even alone, and people who live alone. I think I want to distinguish that. The ones I'm the most worried about are the people who are lonely and who have nobody to call,

Starting point is 01:14:41 and not many people checking them. Call, text, doesn't matter, but reach out. Those I'm very worried about. I'm worried about depression. I'm worried about alcoholism. I'm worried about suicide. I'm worried about a lot of, I'm worried about, you know, just living in an endless world of porn, whatever it is, disconnected. It's just there's no one to reach out to them.

Starting point is 01:15:02 And this is not new, even before the digital, you know, when things like that keep you away from others. So the best thing I found for those people is to say, go volunteer. You know, people need you. Maybe you don't feel that enough people love you, but I can tell you there's a world of people out there who need you at this moment and who could use you bringing food for them or go get their meds or walk their dog or God knows what purpose, a sense that you matter, a sense of social relevance is going to be the most important thing. And it always is, but it is even more so now against that kind of loneliness. Because when you're lonely,

Starting point is 01:15:53 you begin to question, do I matter? And what's the difference if I'm here or not? And who even cares? Who would notice? And it's against that that I make people go outside. If you don't care that much anyway anyway then you can take some risks but your risks will give you mental health and your mental health will ultimately help you with your physical health because being healthy is not just not having a virus you know being healthy is living connected to all kinds of things in the world nature people you know work art but purpose is the piece so i've made lists of all kinds of volunteering that exists and i've sent it around to everybody who i thought would really use it at this moment or should use it could could i get a copy of some of those i don't know if they're really specific geographically but would that be something that i could put in the show notes for this episode? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:45 I'll give you, I'll give you a lot of things. I mean, you know, my neighbor is the bed is the one that is the easiest. I think it's called my neighbor, right? It's it's because it's by neighborhood.

Starting point is 01:16:56 And is it that that's the name of it? I don't, I don't know, but I will, I will tell people that we will put these resources in the show notes. So if you just go to tim.blog forward slash podcast and that will... I have them by New York, but they must be everywhere.

Starting point is 01:17:11 Like I have a friend who runs a shelter for domestic violence. I have another person I know who works in a residential treatment center. All these places need people that will come and work with the people who live there. And I mean, it's endless, actually. It's a very interesting thing.

Starting point is 01:17:28 There's going to be less work, but there is actually an enormous amount of people needed for things. I will send you the ones I have. They are primarily mostly New York-based, but I'm sure they have been spread around the country. There's two young kids who basically gathered 1,300 volunteers in the city to just deliver food to the elderly, those who are trying to stay home and don't necessarily know how to connect with Instacart,

Starting point is 01:17:55 or don't have kids who will do that for them. I mean, they're walking dogs, going to get their meds, taking them to the doctor. People still need to go to the doctor. There's still other health issues. And these two young kids in their 20s gathered 1,300 people in a few days. And I made sure that two people I work with

Starting point is 01:18:15 who I thought, you are not rotting away like this, you know, get up and go help. You know, I didn't say it like this, but this, i really think that um if you don't feel that your life is important enough for you sometimes it helps to know that at least it makes a difference for others and the phrasing that you used earlier i thought was very powerful and correct me if i'm wrong but it was even if you feel that people don't love you or wouldn't love you or couldn't love you, there are still plenty of people who need you. I think that's very, very

Starting point is 01:18:52 powerful to let sink in. I think that's a very strong wedge in the door that can open the room just a crack to let in a few rays of light and and from that point but you know there's another version of it that's him it's like i think of this other person i was working with last week and you know she was she's on her own now. She said, she's, she's divorced, whatever for a long time, but she also broke up with a new, with a new partner. And, um, there was this kind of

Starting point is 01:19:33 nostalgia of, I don't have a partner. And meanwhile, there are a lot of other people around who actually would be there. So I think it's also important to identify with people who is in their circle and to do a social mapping, you know, who actually does think of you, but you don't value it enough because it's not that. It's not your partner. It's not a boyfriend, a lover. You know, it's not romantic. And so and that's an important piece as well is to actually broaden the definition of who's there for you. I, you know, I draw a lot from my memories around the AIDS epidemic, from my work around 9-11, from my own personal history, from the Gulf War. You know, I mean, there's a lot of the AIDS epidemic for sure.

Starting point is 01:20:23 There's a lot of situations where we've learned a lot of things. It's not like this is the first time that we have to invent everything. Peer connection is probably the most important thing that will help us in terms of mental health at this moment. Parent groups, people, you know, men's group continuing online online people um sometimes it's just basically activity based it's fine it's fine it's at least you know because why is it so important because in this moment when you live in your home like this and and you especially if you don't have much space the disruption is in space and in time you You know, people have a rhythm. They're used to going out. They come in alone or with partners.

Starting point is 01:21:07 They know when they are together, when they are apart, even with kids. When the kids are away, when the house is their own. And none of this, structurally, nothing is actually sustained at this moment. So it demands tremendous adaptability. Tremendous adaptability in very, very short amount of time. And people who are alone in that sense or live alone or have less adaptability, in that sense, their life is actually more similar to the way that they've lived it, except that they can't move themselves the way they used to move.

Starting point is 01:21:44 But in terms of what happens inside their space, there's not that big of a difference. Yeah, I've seen certainly for my girlfriend at least that group exercise classes online have had a profound impact on her ability to function and thrive on a daily basis, whether that be group exercise or dance classes. I think there's a site, if you're interested in hip-hop dance, I think it's called Skeezy.

Starting point is 01:22:17 I have no idea how to spell this. No, I do Gaga. I follow Gaga. But dancing is extremely important at this moment, more even than exercise. Because you can't dance and be sad. You know, you can listen to music and cry. You can read and cry.

Starting point is 01:22:35 You can draw and cry. But you can't dance and cry. The body won't let you. I'm just trying to imagine what that would look like. I remember somebody sent me like crying combination smiley emoticon recently, and it was so confusing to me. So yes, dancing and crying seems difficult to combine. No, because the body that is collapsed cannot dance.

Starting point is 01:23:00 So dancing is actually very important. And there's a lot of people, they put music together, they put songs, they dance together, they talk at the same time. I mean, it's actually very imaginative and resourceful how people are doing everything to stay connected, to feel energized, to feel vital. What has helped you? What have you done? So she does the exercise classes and you? Well, I do a few things. And it's evolved over the last four weeks, as I've realized what seems to help and what doesn't seem to matter, at least personally. So I will say that I have no delusion that this is normal as it was, say, the same normal two months ago,

Starting point is 01:23:49 nor will it be the same two months from now, I don't think. Certainly, economically, that will not be the case. And I have found structure and routine to be very, very helpful for me. Because I am bombarded all day with requests for help, text updates, data, etc, that reflects such a high degree of uncertainty and unpredictability that it's very helpful to have certain parts of the day that are predictable for me. And so,, so among other things, uh, my,

Starting point is 01:24:26 my girlfriend and I up to this point, I would say up until a few weeks ago, woke up at very different times. She would get up very early. I would get up a few hours later and we would work respectively during the day, meet up. Maybe we go out to dinner. Maybe we eat at home.

Starting point is 01:24:43 Oftentimes we would have different social engagements. We might not eat together. That's all changed. So we go out to dinner. Maybe we eat at home. Oftentimes we would have different social engagements. We might not eat together. That's all changed. So we've, we're now waking up around the same time, seven o'clock or so, seven 30. We are at least most recently exercising together. We're not actually following the same workout. She'll be doing her dancing or yoga or using an app for different types of calisthenics i'll be doing something called well there are a few things i rotate through there's something called the happy body by jersey and aniela gregorek that's a whole mouthful but if you search the happy body and gregorek g-r-e-g-o-r-K, you'll find what I'm talking about. I did a podcast interview with Jersey as well. It's effectively a very short morning mobility sequence. It's very low impact,

Starting point is 01:25:35 and I find that it undoes a lot of the damage that sitting with a laptop or multiple screens for a good portion of the day can inflict. So wake up, exercise together, which has really been surprisingly impactful for us. Then at that point, the phone is also on airplane mode. I have to, I've been trying to put my phone on airplane mode around, say, 8 p.m. and to take it off of airplane mode only after breakfast. Otherwise, you're just getting assaulted with bad news 24-7. Then this is going to be, just give me a minute, because some of this might be helpful to folks.

Starting point is 01:26:23 So then I'm also ensuring, at least when it is allowed to walk at least an hour a day, try to get sunshine. And if I can't do that, I actually have a chest freezer that has been modified and caulked. Some of this can still be done even in places where there's some restriction of movement so that I can use a cold plunge. So I'm using a lot of cold and even a cold shower during the day for some type of physiological change. At night, this is one of the bigger changes. As you mentioned, we're cooking at home every night. And we'll sometimes cook for multiple nights at a time. But when we eat, even if we're not cooking, we've actually chosen a different table in a different room. Because my girlfriend has an office here in the

Starting point is 01:27:18 house. I don't, I would usually go downtown to an office and work, but I can't do that at this point, or I'm not willing to do that. So the kitchen table has some nature outside. And we'll light a candle and say a grace, say what we're grateful for and eat together, no devices. And at that point, we usually go for a walk after dinner with the dog because Molly requires outside time for bathroom and otherwise. And come back. And at that point, usually try to avoid devices. And we have a television series that we watch during the week, which right now is The Amazing Mrs. Maisel, which is a fantastic show. And then we watch something else on the weekends so that we are distinguishing between the weekdays and the weekends.

Starting point is 01:28:30 So we deliberately change our routines and activities on the weekends so that there's some feeling of a break such that it's not Groundhog Day every day. Also use heat exposure. My girlfriend likes hot baths. I am very fortunate to have a small barrel sauna. And so I will use heat at night. And then... I said to Jack that I needed to buy your sauna thing because it's actually one of the things that they find to be very, very useful over 56 degrees Celsius.

Starting point is 01:29:06 It actually, it's very countering of the virus. And I remember that. It's very helpful. And I said, Jack, we need to get one of Tim's sauna beds. Yeah, the barrel saunas. Yeah, they're surprisingly, I mean, look, I recognize this is where I can get very judgmental towards myself. I recognize it's not within the grasp of everyone, but at least last

Starting point is 01:29:26 I checked, they sell reasonably inexpensive barrel sawn as a Costco. They did at least for a period of time. These are not, this does not require a year's salary necessarily. But the point being that we're using heat and cold as contrasts through the day. And we find that to help with sleep also. Then I usually foam roll a little bit before bed because I'm still so spun up. Even if I've done a lot of walking, even if I've done some exercise, my mind is generally still very, very active. So I will do some foam rolling to try to downregulate and then we'll go to bed. And we use a humidifier. We also use, or I use at least, a hot vapor device for just to try to ensure upper respiratory tract or support upper respiratory

Starting point is 01:30:22 tract health. And that's the day. And then there are days where there are certain types of other exercise. Like I might not do the happy body and I might do Peloton, for instance. I use Peloton quite a lot. And just seeing human faces on a big screen is recorded or live, doesn't seem to matter for me, is really, really helpful.

Starting point is 01:30:42 So I'll do that or on the bike, meaning the stationary bike will do scenic rides. So this is video footage of the Alps or New Zealand or fill in the blank. And that's more or less the day and it's pretty much copy and paste every day. There's less variance in my routine right now than at any other time in the last several years.

Starting point is 01:31:06 And I think that is part of what is helping me to stay mostly sane. So that's a long answer to a short question, but those are a few. I think that many of these will be, will be really helpful. And I mean, you inspire me to add a few things to. Can I add one more before I forget?

Starting point is 01:31:24 The other, the other thing that my girlfriend and I have you inspire me to add a few things to... Can I add one more before I forget? Yeah, of course. The other thing that my girlfriend and I have done, and this is actually based on a conversation I had with Brene Brown not too long ago on the podcast who spoke about how she does this with her husband, but we will tell each other in the morning oftentimes, we don't do this every day, but if we are really worn thin, maybe we didn't sleep well.

Starting point is 01:31:47 Like last night, I couldn't stop thinking. I was physically exhausted, but just had that tired and wired experience where I just could not ramp down. And I had taken a fair number of things already to try to help me sleep and it didn't matter. So I got probably two or three hours of sleep last night. And so I told my girlfriend this morning, I said, I'm probably at about 20%, just to give you a heads up in case I'm overly sensitive. I don't have a whole lot of slack in the system right now. I probably, I have a total of 20% in the tank and she does the same. So it could be that we're at 70, 80. How are you doing? I'm feeling really good. I'm at 90. I had a full night of sleep. It's a beautiful day. Great. And then there are some days, whether it's, there are hormonal contributions, let's say with menstruation and so on, or could just be related

Starting point is 01:32:42 to sleep events, news from close friends and family, etc. That we give each other an indication of how much buffer we have in the system, so that our behaviors are perhaps easier to understand, and also so the other person can pick up the slack if necessary, and make more of an effort for a day or two yeah it's a that's very much what i was saying before when i said you know if you're irritable if you're low energy if you it's basically kind of let check in with each other do pulse checks and let the other let each other know where you are at so that your responses are put in a context, you know, and each one knows what they can expect from the other.

Starting point is 01:33:31 I think you've given a really rich list, you know. I go to nature. I take hikes. And I have certain paths where I can literally go alone every morning or I will have somebody else call someone and say, do you want to go ride? And they drive to me and we walk up the mountains, but one person on each side of the road. So I actually am able to still see people, a few, but I have. I have a book club we have we have migrated online and i have a movie club which is the most beautiful thing because we spend 90 minutes

Starting point is 01:34:14 talking about films every week we have to watch a film and we talk about it and for a while you talk about something completely unrelated so different with people who are in Australia, in France, in the US, we are all over the place, our little group. And it's been so nice, so nice to just, yeah. No, could you say more about that? Just tell us more about the format, when you do it, how does it work? What are the rules of the movie club? We were about to start this movie club because we've had a book club for for three years now and we were just about to start

Starting point is 01:34:50 a movie club and this thing happened and we spread out and so i said we we won't you know let's not let it wait let's do it wherever we are literally some are in europe some are in australia one is in hawaii the others are all over the u. And basically, we decided on a movie. What did you decide on? Well, the first one was Jojo Rabbit. The second one was The Marriage of Maria Brown by Rainer Fassbinder, which is a movie of

Starting point is 01:35:17 79 that is a phenomenal movie. And the third one that we're doing now is some... Let me see. It's an American film. Dumb and Dumber. Dumb and Dumber. No, no, no.

Starting point is 01:35:34 It's a film club. Stars in My Crown. Stars in My Crown. Stars in My Crown. Stars in My Crown. Stars in My Crown. One person basically said, you know, we highly recommended it. And so we don't know what we're watching. You know, one person throws a movie and we say, let's go with it. So we meet four o'clock on Sunday because that is 6 a.m. or whatever.

Starting point is 01:36:06 It's just that they're changing in Australia and in Europe this week. So we have to make sure that this one isn't too early and this one isn't too late. And we are in the middle, three or four o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday. And we meet and we are about, how much were we late this time? Maybe around 15 of us. And some of them, two of them are in the same room. Some of them are on their own. And we discussed the film.

Starting point is 01:36:34 So you watch it anytime you want. Yes. Is it weekly or monthly? It's a monthly? Weekly. Weekly, okay. We moved it to weekly. We were going to do it monthly.

Starting point is 01:36:44 But we moved it to weekly because it just was so nice, such a relief. Yeah, that's a great idea. That's a great idea. So, you know, often we've seen the movie actually one or two days before, so it's fresh. And one of us is the moderator that basically makes sure that everybody gets a chance to speak. And you're using Zoom for this? Yeah, Zoom. And then this week we have the book club, which is usually once a month. Yeah, once a week for the book club is ambitious. Yes, yes.

Starting point is 01:37:21 No, plus I can't read. I mean, I feel like I do not have enough of that concentration at this moment so i haven't done my homework for this sunday what is what is what was the assignment what was the book of this month of is i will tell you in a sec uh book club next book club a dance to the music of time by anthony powell don't ask me more i have i haven't read it uh i have not no and if i don't read it i don't attend i can't just be you can't just show up for the sake of showing up you can show up for the first 20 minutes when we are checking in and having a drink and then uh And then when people start the conversation, basically you say,

Starting point is 01:38:05 see you next time. And is there a particular set of questions that you go through for the movie or is it just a free-for-all when you guys meet for the movie check-in? We did it twice. We start sometimes with whether people who particularly loved it and particularly did not. And then we ask, why did you love it? Why did you hate it? And then with me, the question was, why did you choose it? Because I chose the one from last week.

Starting point is 01:38:40 Why did you choose this movie? What did you see? There's a couple of people who know a lot about cinema, and they often know the work of that director. It's just really a very interesting chat. So tell

Starting point is 01:38:59 us your answer. Which movie was it last week, and why did you choose it? Last week, the movie was The Marriage of Maria Brown, which if you don't know fasbinder you he's one of the most important post-war german directors um 60s 70s um and uh it basically is the story of a woman who is also the metaphor for Germany. So it's a story told through this one woman and her post-war life and how she climbs and becomes this rich lady and her relationship to this man that she married, who she actually spent one night with, but spent her whole life waiting for. But in fact, the story of Maria Braun is also the story of how Fassbender sees Germany post-war. So you have these two tracks being told at the same time, the story of a love story of a woman, but in fact, it's the story of a nation. And that being able to tell two stories

Starting point is 01:40:00 at the same time of which one is overt and the other one is hidden is incredibly is incredible plus it's the cinematography the guy who was the cameraman of Fassbinder then after that movie he moved to the states and he became Martin Scorsese's cameraman I've heard of him yeah you know so the cinematography of the film is also just something you know amazing and i didn't see this film since 79 i just remembered it as some as a as a one of those formative movies in my life and um uh and it followed jojo rabbit so it kind of had a logic as to why i i thought about that and then our next movie will be Badlands. Badlands. Terrence Malick, one of the greatest American directors.

Starting point is 01:40:55 So we're, we're just going, it's, it's very, it's not very formal, you know, it's like somebody says, let's do Malick. Malick is an amazing director to discuss. And so then we decide which would be a good malik movie to see and then we we decided okay let's do badlands because it's one of the great american films and um it's exciting it's so nice to be talking about something else for a bit yeah i do you know yeah sorry to interrupt You said in the beginning you do your catch-up introductory check-ins and have a drink.

Starting point is 01:41:30 Are there any rituals or rules around that? Do you guys kind of cheers each other? Are you all just kind of nursing one drink? No. No, in that sense, it's rather, you know, we are half Americans and half from all over the world and um the people from abroad tend to not want this to be too structured it's like that it's like you know we we really know. We, the conversation ends when we've said what we had to say. It's not like,

Starting point is 01:42:09 you know, we say from six to eight, um, it starts at four and then this one, it went in five 30 and at five 30 it felt like we had enough. Right. I like it. I like it. I like it. You know, it was just like, okay, I guess we're ready for the next film we've kind of gone around the block everybody has said

Starting point is 01:42:27 what they had to say we've had our discussions and it's good and then we've had a few more minutes where people checked in how are you

Starting point is 01:42:35 where are you you know what's it like in Australia you caught the last plane you know people kind of checked in with each other and then we said

Starting point is 01:42:42 see you next Sunday amazing so that's the that's been a real high for me actually um i do yoga every morning with a different either it's class i have two unusual ongoing classes in the city and i've just continued them online and then i just check in every night with a friend and i say you you know, do you want to meet me at 7.30 for an hour? Because I realize that I can't do it alone. I don't have the motivation.

Starting point is 01:43:11 If I do it alone, I'll do it for 20 minutes and then I'll, you know, I'll get caught up with something else. My productivity level is not at the same level in my discipline either. So if I'm accountable to someone, someone waiting for me I'll be there I'll show up and I just text anybody like I send it out to a variety of people and I just say are you are you free tomorrow for yoga or for a walk you know um it's very impromptu in that way but uh I realize that I do better with somebody than alone at this moment and then i go with my husband i say let's take a let's just take a 20 minute walk before we start sitting at the laptop the whole day let's just walk together and uh we haven't been to town or anything i

Starting point is 01:43:57 haven't i have not been outside of just plain nature in that sense or even walk around you know it's snow this week so we just walked around the place here in the the neighboring streets it's not uh it's not major but just just to hear you know to see skies like you son this and that um and what i've listened to a lot of music i've actually been listening to a lot of music in ways that I don't, not as background. And I think your thing about setting the table, Jack did that last night. It was so good. You know, he set the table by the, you know, in a different room and put a, I mean, a ritual.

Starting point is 01:44:39 A ritual of kind of, let's still feel that we can settle in and savor this whole, even if it's a half an hour, you know, but just let's not just let everything kind of unravel around. Let's keep us in. But it's more than structure. It's really a ritual. I think rituals at this point are extremely important, like the one that when you wake up in the morning, that's a ritual that you

Starting point is 01:45:10 do with your girlfriend. So I am looking for different rituals. I definitely measure, and this I would say to other people, I know when I can't read one more article about this. Yeah, I think I go past the point of it being helpful.

Starting point is 01:45:34 I mean, like, you know, no, I can't. I wasn't going to listen to the daily yesterday. You know, I was just like, I, or I get the briefing of the you know i've got my list but i i i just know sometimes it's okay i'm gonna go two days without it's fine it's fine yeah it's fine so that's the thing it's just it's okay to think about other things um and uh we have also done some watching of tv together you know though I really don't feel like having more screen time at the end of the day. I'm like, you know, screened out. So sometimes just sitting quiet and listening to the, like you with your porch, just sitting outside.

Starting point is 01:46:18 It's still cold here, but just quiet. Because we talk the whole day is another thing. We talk, we listen, we are in conversation with talk the whole day is another thing we talk we listen we are in conversation with patients the whole day um and work you know i think we haven't said much about that but i do feel better when i work i feel that uh i'm not i'm i feel that i have a sense of agency that i can do things so i prepared a keynote address last week for 1,300 people about couples in quarantine and teaching my colleagues. My supervision group is usually monthly. I said we will meet every week.

Starting point is 01:46:57 And now I will kind of hold the group. It's 25 therapists together, helping other people to think about their work concerns, doing the podcasts. I found it so creative to be doing this podcast at this moment. I feel like I'm finding a way to bring purpose and creativity together, and I'm not thinking about myself. It's really that. I just don't want to spend all my time thinking about me and my own little world and just feel like I can contribute, do something for others. Those are the things that I've worked harder than I have done. I mean, it's an incredible thing.

Starting point is 01:47:42 I don't even know where it suddenly came from. And, you know, I live with my husband, Jack, who saw S-A-U-L, who happens to be for three decades an expert in disaster preparedness. So I've got W-H-O-U-N. I hear the names, the calls. This is very much in our house, the expertise of people who have worked with large-scale psychosocial trauma.

Starting point is 01:48:13 So I go back and forth between wanting to hear from him because he knows so much, and then kind of saying, can we talk about something else? Yeah. You know, but that, so I think we're very much on the same track in terms of things, things that, that we do. He meditates every day.

Starting point is 01:48:37 I don't, but I know that that's very important. That's my, I do my yoga if you want, want but meditation i've been trying to run and put a little goal for myself that i will add 10 minutes every day to my run because it's uphill um i try to still feel like i i can discover certain things that put little challenges for myself rather than just preservation well i i think we've I think we've given people a lot to chew on. There's so many different things to explore, how to use music. I've ended up using classical during weekday, workday,

Starting point is 01:49:16 typically reggae at night on weekday evenings, and then different music for the weekends. I have a whole system. Yeah, yeah. We do vinyl. Our vinyls are here, so every night we rediscover music we haven't heard in years. Oh, that's amazing.

Starting point is 01:49:33 And Esther, you're amazing. I always love our conversations, and it's been actually a real nice decompress for me just to have this conversation with you. And I know how full your days are and i'm thrilled that you were able to to find time to spend some of it in this conversation and i i know people are going to want to learn more about you see what you're up to listen to what you're up to where would you like people to go what would you like them to pay the most attention to you have so many different projects there's a few that are very much in line with the moment so my newsletter and blog

Starting point is 01:50:12 i think is probably the most direct place where i also give some of the suggestions the recommendations um and you just go to my website esterpperel.com, and you sign on. I mean, that's where I'm really putting together in small bites what I often develop in long form, if you want. So the newsletter, where should we begin? We have a special season that is Couples in Quarantine. Now, just to be clear I know I said it in the introduction

Starting point is 01:50:47 but the name of the podcast is Where Should We Begin? correct just making sure so my podcast Where Should We Begin has a special season of which the first episode was dropped last night which is a couple in Sicily

Starting point is 01:51:03 it's called Two Adults, Three Children and a Wall in sicily it's called two adults three children and a wall in between um i did the second one today we'll do a series of that and then how is work which i also am going to do episodes for how is work the season the first season is out everywhere where you get your podcast it's about the invisible forces that shape workplace dynamics, but it is ever more relevant right now, ever more relevant. So I will do a few episodes as well about the issues around work as they are presenting themselves right now here and abroad. Sessions is the platform where I work with anybody who wants to be more trained as coaches,

Starting point is 01:51:44 therapists, all the people who want to more get the training that's a digital training platform and sessions is going to be the place through whom i'm going to do training for managers founders you know all of that um and uh and all the social channels you know it's all integrated. But I've always worked on how people handle their relationships. And I think that health, as it relates to relational health and mental health, it's at the forefront of what we talk. And you don't get so much of that when people are spending more time about the virus itself.

Starting point is 01:52:26 Health is more than just not being sick. So that's what I want to emphasize in this moment. And that's where you find me. EstherPerel.com is the gate to it all. And then the podcast app. Wonderful. EstherPerel.com is the gate to it all, folks. I'm telling you.

Starting point is 01:52:45 Check it out. She has just an incredible corpus of work, and you continue to put out. Oh, Tim. Yes. Sorry, the guy who asked you what kind of things for people who are living apart. Yes. Also, Rekindling Desire, which is the online workshop that I have, that really is for how you maintain playfulness, spontaneity,

Starting point is 01:53:06 curiosity in your relationships. You don't have to be living together at all to go through that. And it is jam-packed with suggestions of how to maintain that connection at distance, as we say. What was it called again? Rekindling desire. Rekindling desire. That was actually almost verbatim another question. So you answered a question without even knowing it also. A separate question. Rekindling Desire.

Starting point is 01:53:32 Excellent. It's on the website. I don't have to say more. Just go check it out. It is what it says. It is what it is. It is what it says. And everybody what it is. It is what it says. And everybody out there should try Weekly Movie Club.

Starting point is 01:53:49 I think that's a brilliant idea. I'm absolutely going to explore that with a friend of mine to see what we can put together with our gang. And it's always such a pleasure, Esther. I really appreciate you taking the time. We will link to everything in the show notes. And more specifically, for folks who want to see resources from this episode, to see our first episode, which has completely different content, very, very, very different, looking at monogamy, non-monogamy, all sorts of other topics, as well as the volunteer resources, which will be, I think, very important and powerful for a lot of people who can benefit from feeling needed right now. We will put those at tim.blog forward slash Esther. So that's T-I-M dot B-L-O-G

Starting point is 01:54:42 forward slash E-S-T-H-E-R. So you'll be able to find all of my conversations with Esther as well as the resources at that link and links to everything that we have discussed so far. And I think that's a full conversation for now. Thank you so much, my dear. Same, same here. Be well, be healthy, be safe, and all of you who are listening to us, I wish

Starting point is 01:55:08 you really all the best. And I will echo that. Thanks to everybody for tuning in, and until next time, be safe, form a movie club. Listen to good music. Allow yourself to dance.

Starting point is 01:55:23 Allow yourself to dance. I have to get that barrel. Allow yourself to dance. Allow yourself to dance. I have to get that barrel. I have to find a way. And stay connected, people. And one thing, it's so-called social distancing. That's the wrong word. You know, it's physical distancing, but it's social leaning.

Starting point is 01:55:41 Do not misunderstand that word. Exactly. And last but not least, be kind. And that includes yourself. All right. Signing off. Thanks, everybody. Hey, guys. This is Tim again.

Starting point is 01:55:54 Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends,

Starting point is 01:56:33 for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. We're with the most five-star reviews. Now, speaking as a former e-commerce CEO back in a previous incarnation when I was shipping tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands of products, this is what I wish I had way back in the day. As folks adapt to this changing world, these strange times, we are all going to be buying more stuff online than ever before. And if you're an e-commerce seller or if you want to be selling more online, you have to ask

Starting point is 01:57:29 yourself, are you ready to meet the demands of our new delivery economy? You can be ready with ShipStation. And lots of my friends use them. So why ShipStation? When you're selling online, getting a lot of orders out fast can be super hard. I've experienced this firsthand. How do you keep track of who gets what? Which shipping carriers should you use? How do you process refunds? How do you process returns? How do you do all of that? Are you getting the best rates? ShipStation helps online sellers of any size get orders out quickly, save money on shipping costs, and keep customers happy. They do a few things really,

Starting point is 01:58:09 really well. You can import more orders from more places. So no matter where you're selling, Amazon, Etsy, Shopify, eBay, your own website, wherever, ShipStation brings it all into one simple interface, making it really easy to manage from any device, including your cell phone, your smartphone. You can instantly rate shop your favorite carriers. And this is a huge deal. As a ShipStation user, you can get access to discounted rates that are typically reserved for much larger companies like Fortune 500 companies that meet certain minimums. Just as an example, ShipStation just negotiated a new deal with UPS in which rates are discounted as much as 62%. That has a huge impact on businesses and on your bottom line, your profit margin. And in the Amazon Prime world, where people are used

Starting point is 01:58:51 to free shipping, small businesses or smaller businesses can struggle to stay competitive with high shipping costs. ShipStation can help with that. You go way beyond ordinary tracking. So there's a self-serve portal for people who want to know where their order is, when they're going to get it, etc. Returns, ditto, self-serve. It just makes everything easier. That's why ShipStation is the number one choice of online sellers today. You ship more product in less time with the best rates available.

Starting point is 01:59:19 And right now, my dear listeners, you can try ShipStation free for 60 days when you use offer code TIM, T-I-M. There's absolutely no risk. You can start your free trial without even entering your credit card info. Just visit ShipStation.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage, and type in TIM. That's ShipStation.com, then enter offer code TIM, ShipStation.com. Make ship happen. One more time, ShipStation.com. Click on the microphone at the top and type in Tim. That's me, T-I-M. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. I love these guys and I love their products.

Starting point is 01:59:57 Magic Spoon is a brand new cereal that is low carb, high protein, zero sugar. It tastes exactly like your favorite cereals from your childhood. It just doesn't include all the bad stuff. That's the gist. So especially these days when I'm looking for fond associations, good feelings, you know, back in the day when I was before school watching Scooby-Doo and eating these cereals that would leave my milk some sort of phosphorescent color. Those were good times. And now I can eat this cereal, which I haven't done in decades, but I do now regularly because let's face it, beans and pasta gets old after a while. So variety pays off.

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Starting point is 02:01:24 so impressed with the results of his self-experiments that he ended up investing in the company. That's true for two other friends as well, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday. So check it out. See what all the buzz is about. You can go to magicspoon.com forward slash Tim to grab a variety pack and no need to take just my word for it. Magic Spoon has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 2019 and Forbes called it the future of cereal. And my listeners, that's you.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #418: Esther Perel — Tactics for Relationships in Quarantine

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #418: Esther Perel — Tactics for Relationships in Quarantine

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.