The Tim Ferriss Show - #494: Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett — Two Legends on Competing, Overcoming Adversity, Must-Read Books, and Much More

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to attempt to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types from all different disciplines to give you techniques, perhaps tactics, favorite books, training regimens even, recovery protocols even that you can use. are the best at what they do. Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett, they're very close friends. They were able to feed off of each other. Their shared stories are incredible. So the combination of the two on this podcast was really special. Now, let me read these bios and then we'll jump right into the conversation. Michael Phelps, you recognize his name on Twitter, at Michael Phelps, is widely regarded as one of the greatest athletes of all time. He captured 28 medals, including a record-setting 23 gold medals, and set 39 world records over the course of his career. Phelps utilized his performance bonus for winning eight gold medals in 2008 to establish the Michael Phelps Foundation, which promotes water safety,

Starting point is 00:01:05 healthy living, physical and mental, and the pursuit of dreams. The foundation's signature program, I Am, is a learn to swim, healthy living, and goal-setting curriculum based on the principles and tools Phelps utilized in his swimming career and is available through the Boys and Girls Clubs of America and Special Olympics International. His advocacy for water safety and mental health has earned the recognition of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America, Champion of Youth, American Image Awards, that's the Humanitarian Award, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Special Recognition Award, the Ruderman Family Foundation, Morton E. Ruderman Award in Inclusion, and PR Week Health

Starting point is 00:01:41 Influencer 50 and 2020 Communicator of the Year, among many others. Phelps served as an executive producer and featured talent in the HBO documentary, The Weight of Gold, which explores the mental health challenges Olympic athletes often face, although it really extends to many, many more people and types of people than Olympic athletes. In addition, he has published two autobiographies, No Limits, Subtitle, The Will to Succeed, and Beneath the Surface that were New York Times and USA Today bestsellers and one children's book, How to Train with a T-Rex and Win Eight Gold Medals. You can find him online on Twitter, twitter.com forward slash Michael Phelps, Facebook, facebook.com forward slash Michael Phelps, and on Instagram at M underscore Phelps zero zero. Grant Hackett

Starting point is 00:02:26 on Instagram at Grant underscore underscore Hackett. That's two underscores. So I'll give that to you again at Grant underscore underscore H-A-C-K-E-T-T represented and captained Australia in swimming at the Olympic Games. He collected a total of 58 medals over the course of his swimming career with 26 gold at Olympic Commonwealth and World Championship levels, along with 16 world records. He remained unbeaten for 11 years in his pet event, the 1500-meter freestyle and the Australian Sports Medal. Grant is a member of the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame. His qualifications include also an Executive Master's of Business Administration with first-class honors, a Diploma of Business Law, and a Diploma of Financial Services. Grant is the CEO of Generation Life, an Australia-based investment firm managing more than $1.3 billion.

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Starting point is 00:08:01 Of course. Thank you. What's up, Grant? Thrilled to have us all together. This was the Da Vinci code of scheduling, the Fermat's last theorem of coordination, because we have people in every possible time zone and multiple countries. So I appreciate you guys being flexible with making it happen. And I thought we would start with difficult or particularly notable races. And I'd love to start with you, Grant, because I was confessing to both of you before

Starting point is 00:08:34 we started, I enjoy swimming. I actually didn't even learn to swim until I was in my 30s, which is a whole separate story. But I really enjoy swimming, but I know very, very little about competition and the history of competitions and notable races and so on. Grant, can you please speak to and describe for people what happened in the 2004 Olympics in the 1500 meter freestyle? Yeah, that was a particularly tough Olympics for me. That year, I actually got pneumonia at the start of the year because I was just over training. I got a little bit sick and never missed a session. And, you know, I used to do sort of 8K on average per session and used to flog myself. And then I got pneumonia, went to

Starting point is 00:09:14 hospital, that turned into a chronic chest infection because I didn't stop training as soon as I came out of hospital because I couldn't because I'd missed the Olympic Games. And then when I got to the Olympics in Athens in 2004, I then, my only one objective was to win three gold medals. And I got two gold medals, both by 0.1 of a second, two silver medals, sorry, by 0.1 of a second, and wasn't too happy about that. Then I raced the 1500 metre freestyle and I actually had to do it with a partially collapsed lung on my left side because it was blocked with mucus for so long that that race, I probably pushed myself through more pain than I've ever had. And one of Michael's teammates, Larson Jensen, was breaking the American record by about 12 seconds doing a personal best time.

Starting point is 00:09:58 And so it pushed me to the nth degree. And that was brutal. I came home. I went under a CAT scan. And they said, oh, there's a massive lump on your lungs. We're going to have to inject you with iodine just to see what's going on. And, you know, they said, oh, it's a big ball. And, you know, they checked me with iodine, had a look and they said, oh, it's okay. It's okay. And I said, what do you mean? Is it okay?

Starting point is 00:10:17 And they said, well, your lower left lobe has got no oxygen for it for so long that it's actually just deflated and it's just sitting up on a big ball and um i've got a huge lung capacity of 12.6 liters and apparently that took something like a quarter of it off so that that race to win that gold medal was was the most painful moment that i've ever had in my career and yeah but probably the most rewarding at the same time but certainly after that i promised i would never never race like that again. And Michael knows how much of a sore spot that four by two freestyle relay was a few days before where we lost by 0.1. So I have two follow-up questions related to this. The first is you mentioned lung capacity, 12.6 liters. Do you have any idea, just as a point of reference, what average muggle heart capacity is? Like normie, as one of my Olympic friends put it, normies,

Starting point is 00:11:12 what that is compared to a non-Olympic swimming champion lung capacity? So when that was done, because I'm referring to actually the stats in 2004, it's 160% above what it should be for my heart. Yeah, and my age at the time. So yeah, it was 12.63 liters, my total lung capacity. So yeah, it's one of those genetic things that helps. You know, at that level, with swimming and a lot of sports, it's like at the junior high level, you see all sorts

Starting point is 00:11:46 of different body types. And then as you get a little bit higher, you see still different body types, but there's a point where they start to converge on very particular sets of physical characteristics. On the lung, so partially collapsed lung, to most people listening, that just seems completely baffling because so much of swimming would seem dependent on utilizing your full lung capacity. What did it feel like? You said painful, but what does it feel like to swim at max capacity with a partially collapsed lung? It's not good, Tim. Let me tell you that. It's not good. The way I describe that race is like putting, handcuffing someone to a treadmill, putting on a max incline, max speed, and then just going for 15 minutes. That was the intensity of the pain.

Starting point is 00:12:36 Normally where I felt that intense pain at the 1,000-meter mark, I felt at the 500-meter mark in that race. And it's excruciating, those thresholds that you have to go through so yeah to push myself through that the funniest thing about that race i hadn't lost it in eight years at that particular point in time and i was going to last 100 meters and it was the first time it actually turned with someone next to me with 100 meters to go and uh and i actually came home faster in the last 100 meters than what i did than when I broke the world record by seven seconds three years earlier. So it actually taught me the value of competition in my worst situation that I can actually extrapolate or get more out of myself, even feeling like that.

Starting point is 00:13:18 But the pain was, yeah, I actually said I'm going to retire if I can't get better after those Olympics. I'm actually going to retire from the sport because I didn't want to race like that again. Were you doing lactate testing then, Hackey? Yeah, yeah. Do you remember what it would have been after that? You know, it's funny.

Starting point is 00:13:36 It was never that high after my 15, but I think I hit about a 12 after that, where the 200, I could hit a 13 or 14, and the 15 would normally be like a nine but i produced more there because the oxygen saturation wasn't going down into my blood so yeah so it went up that's a good point no one's actually ever mentioned that mp well that's like that's just something i like snap think about because i mean like i mean you know me like i was always somebody who and still am like a just a numbers driven person so that stuff always just sends little key messages whether it's to me or or to bob or to

Starting point is 00:14:11 keenan my trainer of things we need to improve on or fix or maybe what we need to get tested for too so yeah no absolutely no that was the excruciating but you still want to see stats afterwards it's like the olympics is over that's the last day always of the Olympics. And, you know, you would have been doing the 4x1 medley probably that day as well. And, you know, you still want to do everything. Like, you know, see how quickly you remove the lactate out of your muscles after you cool down. And that's one thing that Michael and I always share is the stats. Like we can pull out any swimming time, any split, any world record split. We know

Starting point is 00:14:45 it back to front. I was going to continue with the tough race question. And Michael, you can feel free to go there first. But I also have a question about that training obsession, competitive drive, and also just the familiarity with the numbers, right? I do have some questions about that. But do you have a particularly tough race or competition that you'd like to mention, Michael? I'm going to 200 fly. I'm really happy. It was only 200 meters in 2016. Had it been 201 meters, I would have lost. So that one sticks out other than that like I I look back at you

Starting point is 00:15:26 know most of my races and and I can say they were pretty much pain-free but that was just because I was prepared that literally is the only reason um so you know I was probably 75 80 percent of the I'm really prepared. And 2012 and like 10 to 12 were kind of my fake 65, 70%-ish. Let's talk about prep since that's where I was going to head next. I'm looking at a quote from your coach, Michael, from 2003, and he's referring to both of you guys. He's asked about the similarities between the

Starting point is 00:16:06 two of you. And he said, this is from an interview at some point, they both enjoy training. It's not an ordeal for them. They're both really aware of what's going on in practice in relation to their times, speed, where everyone is, and most importantly, where they are in training compared to their goals. And I'm sure you guys get questions about competitive drive all the time. So I don't want to obsess on that phrasing exactly, but is that familiarity with the numbers and that awareness common across other team members or is that something that is abnormally developed in the two of you? And if so, do you have any theories on why that is? I think a lot of it really is just God-given feel and ability, right? Like, you know, for me, like I'm somebody who is really a field swimmer and I was taught,

Starting point is 00:16:58 you know, the process of it. So I was taught to swim as efficiently as I possibly could at all times. So, you know, I think that's really what allowed me to be able to do the, you know, the repeats and feel the exact times with the stroke counts or, you know, whatever we were trying to do. But also just, I mean, for me, it was like training. Training, I knew I had to be perfect if i ever wanted to do something that no one had ever done right like i was trying to compete and do things that people had never seen before period in the olympics and and swimming so it's like i had to you know from a workout standpoint i had to be as hungry as possible and and you know bob you know, Bob kind of says jump, and I'm, I'm always saying

Starting point is 00:17:45 how high and, and, you know, I always wanted to break as many world records as I possibly could. So that's why I love training. And, and, you know, I know that you can ask Haki, and I think he'd agree that you put the two of us in a pull together training. It is, is, I mean, it's pretty much like we're, we're, we're, we're going toe to toe, no matter what it is, no matter what stroke it is, just basically trying to rip each other's head off and just the pure love and competition of what we do. I think that's something that made us very special. But I mean, like the feel, I think that's, you know, that's something that only one, two, three, 4% of people, 5% of people in the top of all sports

Starting point is 00:18:27 probably really have any idea what we're talking about. It's quite funny. I think just when Michael was talking, I started thinking of the movie Days of Thunder when they're in the wheelchair in the hospital and they push forward and then the other one pushes forward. That's exactly how Michael and I train together. It's just constantly pushing each other and trying to take it to the next level.

Starting point is 00:18:50 And you just disregard the pain in that. The goal is always more important. The outcome is always more important than what you have to go through. I think that's the way we always approached it. I'd love to, as background for people listening, provide some context on how the two of you know each other. And those in the swimming world will know the history and the similarities in trajectory and so on. But either of you could take a stab at this. So I'll let maybe Grant, if you want to

Starting point is 00:19:17 go first, just to describe the backstory. How did you guys get to know each other? It's really funny. I remember hearing Michael. I mean, there's a lot happening in our country right now because it's a 20-year anniversary since the Sydney Olympic Games. So there's plenty going on. And that was Michael's first Olympics. And I remember when he got fourth, I think, in the 200-meter fly there, and it was like a 15-year-old on the swim team.

Starting point is 00:19:40 And now it's swim team. What was it, fifth? Fifth. Come on, man. Fourth, I would have been happier. That's close to fourth, though, so it's right next to it. So I remember just thinking, wow, what a freak. A 15-year-old has gotten fifth.

Starting point is 00:19:55 I wonder if we'll ever hear of him again. And then the next year when he broke the 200-meter butterfly world record of the world championships. Was that 152? Am I right on that? No, 154. I was 46. Yeah, 46, 54.9. the 200 meter butterfly world record of the world championships was that 152 am i right on that no i'm 54 i was four six for dear yeah four six 54 nine and and spring so and then i couldn't believe that a 16 year old actually did that and and i got to you know sort of know michael from from that moment moving forward and then you know then we got to train together and um i think i just saw eye to eye on Michael on things,

Starting point is 00:20:27 like the approach towards swimming, the approach towards competition. How did you end up training together? Just for those who might say, you both sound like you have strong New Jersey accents, but I suspect you're from different places. How did you end up training together? Back in 2003, Michael and his coach, Bob, just came over to Australia for a coaching conference. And so he spent a few weeks in Australia.

Starting point is 00:20:49 So we ended up training then. And I think at that point in time, we really got to know each other. And I saw Michael's level of application towards his training and all the new things that he was trying to bring to the sport, like the underwater off every single wall, which, you know, for your listeners, Tim, not too many people know. But when you're in the middle of a race and you're at like the 200, 300, 400-meter mark and then you try and push and go 15 meters off the wall, it is one of the most difficult things that a person can ever do. It's like a free diver, right, in the last little bit of holding their breath. It is tough. And Michael started doing all these sorts of things that I thought, man, I wonder if that will actually work. free diver right in the last little bit of holding their breath like it is tough and and michael

Starting point is 00:21:25 started doing all these sorts of things that i thought man i wonder if that'll actually work and um and so i saw just how creative and innovative in the sport that he was and he was just a great guy like he was just really i just enjoyed hanging out like we go out to dinner and do things together and i think um that the basis of our friendship was kind of in 2003 kind of springboarded from there and every time we saw each other at meets because we'd obviously be traveling all the time we just always connected and got along well we and we had a lot of mutual respect for for each other um and what each other was bringing to the sport and and also there was another you know sort of counterpart of mine Ian Thorpe who's through that era and I think both Michael and I had a

Starting point is 00:22:04 lot of respect for Ian so you know we'd all spend a lot of time together and respect what each other was doing for the sport at that time too. And you mentioned, I'm going to do a follow-up here with you, Grant, and then I'm going to come back to you, Michael, to ask you what you first noticed about Grant. To you, Grant, when you mentioned innovation and new things being brought to the sport, what else did you notice? What were some other examples that you saw in Michael or through Michael? Michael is the sort of guy that you never ever want to say that he's not going to do something. You never want to be critical of Michael because he will stick it so far up you it's not funny. And not many competitors do that. If I actually said something about one of my competitors or tried to intimidate them a little bit, not even meaning to half the time,

Starting point is 00:22:55 it would get under their skin. It could almost go into their performance in a negative way. Do that to Michael and I'll improve his performance by about 400 percent that is very early on even when we play golf today if i'm betting on him on the last hole it's like this intensity of focus and athletic prowess and everything else you can imagine that makes you great just comes into play even if he's had the worst 17 holes beforehand so i'll go from a 20 handicap to a zero in no time and yeah just on one hole just to stick it to him yeah and i keep testing it right because i'll start g'ing him up before that hole just to see if my theory about him is correct and 100 of the time i am proven right so that's probably one of the other things about michael and and you know that's that's probably one of the other things about Michael. And that's an interesting characteristic that I haven't seen in many athletes across a lot of sports that are able to have that ability to increase performance to that extent because of maybe a slight bit of criticism or questioning. So that was one of the other things I really noticed about him very, very quickly. I have some additional questions about that, but I'll hit snooze on those. Michael, what did you notice about Grant? What were some of your first impressions?

Starting point is 00:24:13 I don't know if you guys or the listeners can pick up, but I mean, as a kid growing up, I was a massive swimming geek. I was a nerd. I was very into it. I was trying to learn anything I possibly could, but also I disres, other great athletes, other great swimmers and growing up idolizing, you know, some of the greats that walked before Haki and I, you know, I just I learned so much history. So being able to understand swimming from a global level very early on, you know, through my sister in a way. And I just really connected with him. And, and, and as you, as you heard with, uh, with Thorpey as well, those two guys are probably the two closest swimming friends that I have to this day. You know, I feel like I was closer with, with the Aussies than I was really with the Americans. And, and so it was kind of strange,

Starting point is 00:25:05 but you know, like I, I, I do remember those 2003 days, you know, Bob and I were going back to, uh, some of those old sets a few weeks ago, hockey and pretty good seeing some of those kicking sets, some of the pulling sets, um, the, the underwater stuff that we were doing with fins. I mean, just everything. And that's what I mean. There aren't many athletes that can really take it to that level back-to-back days. And that was something that I saw in hockey. And obviously, I respected the hell out of. And the chance that we got to spend together was always very special, always very meaningful.

Starting point is 00:25:42 And obviously, he turned into more of a brother than anything else. And it's been cool to see. It's been, oh my gosh, unbelievable. So many great stories. I'm a scatterbrain, so I'm popping all over the place and I feel like I'm going to take some of your questions away. So I'll stop. Feel free to bounce around scatterbrain. I've made an entire career out of it on this podcast. So feel free. Grant, I want to ask you about intensity, and I'm going to do it in a somewhat sideways fashion. But both of you are known for being beasts in training and having just ungodly work capacities. And I don't know if I'm getting the hours right, please correct me if I'm wrong, but 30 to 40 hours of training a week, maybe more at times.

Starting point is 00:26:33 I want you to correct that in your answer if need be. But it seems like the combination of that volume plus the intensity that you're both famous for would drive anyone into the ground and i'm just curious how you prevented that from happening if if maybe you could speak to that grant yeah i think um you know first and foremost around the 30 to 40 hours that's right we would train anywhere from some kind of five to seven hours a day um six days a week i know michael would do seven days a week i think he trained like 530 540 days straight um into beijing so he knows all about that application yeah what was that a little more than that but it's okay five five or six straight years yeah so i mean that degree of application is one thing, but you're right.

Starting point is 00:27:26 You have to be doing it better, faster, harder than the guy on the other side of the world. And I think the goal, the outcome was just so strong, the desire. And I think when something is so meaningful and purposeful to you as an individual, you're willing to do anything. And it's funny, the body does get used to it to an extent. You get used to getting up at 445, you know, doing that eight kilometres, doing it to the intensity that you need to, then going into the gym for 90 minutes doing that, then going back in the afternoon and doing it all again.

Starting point is 00:27:57 And it's amazing how much more you can absorb than what you give yourself credit for. But one of the things I always tried to do is whenever my coach would set something, like an insanely hard set, and if I finished it, I would do one or two more reps. And he was known as having one of the top three intense programs in the world from a lot of the physiologists out there. So I always just try to take it to the next level every single time. I knew with my event, which probably is different to some of the finesse that Michael had in his events in terms of his underwater and skills, for me, it was about being tough.

Starting point is 00:28:30 And he's trained with a great 1,500-meter swimmer called Eric Vance. So he knows the intensity and the mindset. And I was very similar to Eric in terms of if you have to pull me out of the water after this session and put me in an ambulance i do not care as long as i get every ounce out of myself and you've got to show up with that attitude every day because that's how tough the guys are that you're racing and um it's just it's just the way it is and i think when you get the wins it keeps you going right it keeps you going to the next step it makes the the bits a little bit more digestible and and i just love that feeling i just love that feeling afterwards and uh and i knew when i rocked up to race day that if i'd done that work that no one was ever going to touch me

Starting point is 00:29:10 in my race and that and that's like the thing though because it's like you know like there are days obviously you don't want to go grant right like like every day wasn't perfect for us so it's like you know like on those days you have to be able to find that 10, 20, 30, 50 percent, you know, instead of zero where you could just full on punt the whole day, the workout skip, like be lazy, like do whatever the hell you wanted to. So it's like, you know, like to be as consistent as we both were, like throughout our career, literally every every single session, every single stroke matter. So, you know, like that, that's like, it's like for the listeners out there, like it was the smallest, finest details you could possibly think about. You know, we, we had to think, or we, we had to go through and fine tune daily. Like I, like I almost talked to it as like you're, you're, you're going to college and the top level is the 10,000 level class or the thousand level class,

Starting point is 00:30:05 whatever the hell you want to call it. You know, if you skip a few of those classes, like you're missing key steps that are going to help you at the very top level when the lights are on, when, you know, you might've had a bad night's sleep or your roommate might be sick, or maybe the food in the dining hall wasn't very good or your air conditioning doesn't work, you know? So it's like all of the things that you're doing daily are prepping you for any kind of situation that you're going to face at the Olympics, at world championships, whatever your big event is. Totally. And I suppose that's something that wasn't in my mind when I asked the question, and that is it's not just about developing more strength. It's not just about developing the brute attributes.

Starting point is 00:30:47 It's also about the smallest technical details that you have to train to be second nature for competition. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. portfolio. Wealthfront pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as robo-advising, and they currently oversee $20 billion of assets for their clients. Wealthfront can help you diversify your portfolio, minimize fees, and lower your taxes. It takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost. Wealthfront's software constantly monitors your portfolio day in and day out so you don't have to. They look for

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Starting point is 00:32:29 Are there any particular, Michael, tools or techniques for recovery that you found to really pull their weight, so to speak, and have an impact? Because as a mere five foot eight meat cube, I'm not really built for hydrodynamics. I think about training as you did for five to six years straight. And I just can't imagine a human body withstanding that without some portfolio

Starting point is 00:33:01 of recovery techniques. Was there anything that stands out? I mean, we had to be like, we had to be on top of everything, you know, like trying to, like I was saying before, trying to do something that no one's ever done before, you know, have the, give yourself the chance. It's like, you, you, you really have to approach it in every single different way possible than ever has been done before. So, you know, there is no blueprint for it. So for us, it was, you know, one step at a time. And for me to be able to swim at such a high level every single day, I had to be on top of whether it's nutrition, sleeping, drinking water,

Starting point is 00:33:38 you know, like I treated my body like I was a Ferrari, you know, like I treated my body like I'm a high performance race race car because I'm asking it to do so many things. So I was sleeping probably eight to 10 hours a night with a two-hour nap during the day. I was eating eight to 10,000 calories a day, ice tub, massages. I had one PT strength conditioning guy for 15 years that did all of my massages, all of my stretching, all of my Graston, all of my cupping. I had to be super, super anal about it because I needed to ask my body to do so many things every single day. So I guess I'm kind of old school. I never really got into cryo or anything like that, but, but still to this day, like I, I, I work out six, seven days a week and, and, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:30 for me to be able to do everything I need to do from playing golf, having enough energy with the kids and, and doing everything I need to do personally, I have to recover. So I am stretching probably 45 minutes a day. Uh, I'm probably ice tubbing once, maybe twice a week. I go to acupuncturists cupping twice a week. So, you know, I think LeBron said something about it earlier in the year. He spends a million dollars a year on recovery. And honestly, like that just makes sense to me because if he's like, like from what I just said, you know, he's asking his body to do so much at such a high level. It's like you have to treat it like it like it should be treated, right? You know, you have to give it everything it needs. And that's the very basic stuff. So I mean, I have all of my stats, like blood work,

Starting point is 00:35:14 sleep numbers, lactate numbers, anything you can possibly imagine about health or recovery. I have it logged for the last 15 years, 20 years of my career. So I was extremely anal. Yeah. I mean, I was very anal about it because I needed to be, I was selfish in a way. Yeah. That makes all the world of sense. And I think we're going to come back to that focus and the pros and cons of it. Grant, I'd love to ask you about anything you have found helpful for sleep. And that comes to mind because, Michael, you just mentioned it. You also mentioned LeBron James, who's been on this podcast and has a number of different techniques, including using Calm app and other technological tools for helping with getting to sleep. Did you find anything in particular, I mean, aside from training many, many hours a day, which I'm sure helps, for sleep during your training or post-competitive career?

Starting point is 00:36:19 Yeah, I always found some of the apps are great. I actually used to put on one of these apps that used to just have the rainwater um coming down and falling on the leaves and and those sorts of just calming type of things um it's really funny today uh the best way i find to fall asleep is just breathing exercises and and just focusing away from from everything that you know kind of matters in your life around work and, you know, the things that you're responsible for that, you know, normally keep you awake at night. But it's quite funny, to Michael's point, just around recovery, you know, sleep is obviously the ultimate thing to rest the body. And I track everything, you know, I'm sitting here with, you know, one watch on one hand, another

Starting point is 00:36:59 one on the other hand, and I don't even know if either of them tell the time, but they're tracking my heart rate variability, they're tracking my sleep sleep they're tracking my recovery they you know and and i check these stats like there's no tomorrow like i'm still a professional athlete i think you're just hardwired to be like that but you know and it depends what phase you're going through career you know those points where i had injuries and my shoulder would just be my shoulders would be aching at night so i'd be sitting there with with bags of peas on my shoulders just to get the inflammation down. And there's so many different cycles throughout my career where, yeah, you'd have trouble sleeping. Sometimes I would feel the pressure too much coming into competitions after time for some reason. And those are the difficult

Starting point is 00:37:43 times where you need your recovery more than ever, but you're finding it hard to be able to get that rest. So, you know, what's good for one person is not necessarily good for another. But what I know today is if I just did a lot more meditation, a lot more things of slowing down, a lot more mindfulness, those are the sorts of things that would have helped me a lot more throughout my career because they're great techniques that I use today. And I probably sleep better today because of, you know, just the foundation of knowledge that I've been able to build over the time because we were just so anal and just so focused on recovery and trying to find

Starting point is 00:38:15 ways to go, okay, the body is gone. How am I going to get it back to Michael's point? This is not a tractor. It's a Ferrari. And if a bolt's a little bit loose, this thing will not perform. So everything has got to be right. I used to, if I had to walk somewhere, I would sit down as soon as I got there, just so my hip flexors wouldn't tighten up because I wasn't as good a kicker as what Michael was or Ian Thorpe. So I had to do everything on my legs. I was better on the upper body. I could do that. I could pull. It's called pulling. Just, you know, you sort of tie your legs up and, you know and swim with your arms only. That was my strength, but my lower wasn't. So I used to just be fixated on that every minute of the day to make sure whenever I rocked up to training and particularly competition,

Starting point is 00:38:54 my legs were loose, my hip flexors had full range, and I was going to get the most out of them. So yeah, it's an obsession and that's the way it needs to be. Yeah, I was spending some time, Grant, with one of our mutual friends who's deep in training right now and we were hiking and he said, this is great. I just can't do too much hiking. And I said, why not? And he said, because I don't want my ankles to be overly stable or strengthened because I need the flexibility. I want the looseness in the ankles. And I was like, wow, that's not something I hear every day.

Starting point is 00:39:32 It's the only sport where you want loose ankles. You look at tennis players, they've got all the support in place. We're doing the opposite. We'll have a panel of wood where, you know, you've got a strap across the top and you chuck your foot in there and you're leaning back to try and create more flexion and angle. And that's the thing. Like Michael and Ian Thorpe are incredibly flexible and incredibly strong and incredibly mobile. And I didn't have that last part around the mobility that these guys have because think about it. Your feet are like flippers in the water. So if you get that extra bit of angle and you get that flick right at the end, it's going to propel you just

Starting point is 00:40:07 that little bit more. And I'm sitting here at an Olympic Games where I got two silver medals. I think it's over the course of about 1,200 meters of racing and they're by 0.2 of a second in total. So every little bit matters. Michael, I want to revisit a name that has come up a lot so far in this conversation, and that is Ian Thorpe. And it ties into what Grant was saying about using critical or negative or doubting comments as rocket fuel for your motivation. In the course of doing homework for this conversation, I came across a note on Wikipedia that said,

Starting point is 00:40:52 Ian Thorpe. Which quote? He has two quotes. There are two of them that I remember. Go ahead. I'm interested to see which one you have. So Wikipedia, feel free to correct any of this. It's not so much a direct quote.

Starting point is 00:41:04 It just says, Thorpe initially said that it would be highly unlikely so wikipedia feel free to correct any of this it's not it's not so much a direct quote it just says thorpe initially said that it would be highly unlikely for phelps to win eight gold medals at the 2008 summer olympics in beijing phelps used the remarks as motivation and taped the words to his locker during the games so i just wanted to fact check that is that true 100 without question yeah what were the words that you put on your locker uh you know i think at that time bob and i were were um you know a lot of a major chunk of my career i'd say we we were big on you know highlighting different uh quotes or times and you know that people had done or um things we were trying to do so you know like me, like every morning I got out of bed

Starting point is 00:41:45 and I saw my goal sheet of the times I wanted to do that year or at the Olympics or whatever written down. So when I was getting out of bed, I was getting out of bed with a purpose. So then when I got to the pool, that's where that quote was. Just honestly, if I was kind of having an off day,

Starting point is 00:42:01 I use that as, as Haki said, a little extra fuel. That was something that if somebody did say it was impossible, I was going to shove that so far up that I was going to make them eat their words no matter what. Like that was the, there was no if, ands, or but about it. And again, in 2016, I believe he said something along the lines of it'll be impossible or almost impossible to see somebody over the age of 30 win an individual gold medal. And funny enough, I was giving him shit about it after the Olympics in 16. And he goes, I know how you work. He said, so I was helping you give that, was helping you get that extra fuel to really give you some extra motivation to really make sure you kick some ass. To Grant's point though, I knew Grant

Starting point is 00:42:55 probably better than any other athlete in the world. I knew Thorpe better than any other athlete in the world and the same way for them. you know, like we, we just, we knew about each other because we, we, we all were just trying to learn whatever we could and use it into our, our everyday lifestyle to, to help us accomplish the goals that we wanted. And to, to Ian's credit or defense, I'll, I will read one of the actual quotes that is in Wikipedia in which he says, quote, I'm really proud of him, not just because he won eight golds, rather it's how much he has grown up and matured into a great human being. Never in my life have I been so happy to have been proved wrong. translation of using the negative or the critical into rocket fuel. Like you said, Grant, it is, at least in my experience, which is very limited, but it's rare to see. The one other exception that I can think of, and maybe you guys will have seen this, is Michael Jordan in The Last Dance, where every episode there is an example of this.

Starting point is 00:44:07 And someone will say something to him, and then they'll say, fuck, shouldn't have done that. And he comes back and breaks some universal record in the next quarter. And it was so remarkably consistent. And yet, when you flash forward and you are watching this current day footage of Michael, you can't help but get the feeling that he is still very angry, but he has lost a in my life with a lot of anger. And have you found that to cut both ways? What has been your experience with anger during the competitive years or afterwards? I mean, naturally, heck, you can agree. I carry a lot of anger. And a lot of that, I would say, stems from my childhood and some of the things that I experienced. But I also think anger is really, really what did fuel me on those days where I just didn't want to swim. Those were the biggest things. It was almost like turning a switch on,

Starting point is 00:45:22 in a way. I'll say now, knowing what I know about depression, knowing what I know about anxiety, mental health, and about myself as well, I know that I can't approach my life or anything that I do in my life like I did in swimming, just because I guess I could say I was a professional or I was a doctor or whatever the hell you want to call me in the swimming world. But like, I understood swimming, you know, I'd like to think almost better than anybody and, you know, definitely a feel for it. So, you know, I, I don't have enough practice doing what I'm doing now in life. So, you know, I, I do have to take steps back and take deep breaths or, you know, I found that through

Starting point is 00:46:06 COVID, my wife and I's communication level has gone up another level, you know, so it's like little things like that. For me, I'm constantly learning more and more about myself and about why I am how I am. So yeah, do I still get angry? Of course. But I play a lot of golf. I, you know, as I said, I work out six or seven days a week. I'm, I lift weights three days a week. I, um, for anywhere, 60 to 90 minutes. And then the other four days I'm either swimming, I am riding a stationary bike, or I am on, uh, an elliptical. So, you know, those are kind of outlets for me, but it does get scary at times. And, you know, I will say hacky has always been there for me through any single moment of my life through those dark times, you know, but I can also say, you know, during this quarantine,

Starting point is 00:47:00 you know, it's been difficult for me. You know, I've been very open about that recently and through all of this. And I can imagine that it's been difficult for more and more people. And I'll say the one thing to the listeners out there who are listening to it, you're not alone. That's the one thing I truly, truly want to repeat. You'll hear me say it a lot of times through this podcast, but you are definitely not alone with your thoughts, your emotions. But if you are afraid or you're scared or nervous, reach out to somebody for help, a trained therapist or a trained doctor. It's just a very uncertain time for everybody in the world. So that was a little rant. So go ahead. I enjoy rants. That's why we have a long format. You mentioned dark times.

Starting point is 00:47:45 I'd like to talk about this because I feel like both of you have been very open about this, which is a huge service. I mean, it is a huge public service to people who feel alone. they're uniquely flawed or are in a place of shame because the mental health and depression and so on can be very stigmatized still. Michael, could you speak to when you knew you needed help or when you hit rock bottom? Could you just tell the story of that moment or moments. The first time I experienced depression, I'd say it was back in 2004, you know, coming back after all that great success. And, you know, obviously you expect it to continue and, you know, you get back and it's good for, you know, a week or so. And then you kind of feel like you fall off the face of the earth. So for me, it was, it was just beginning to open and talk about these things.

Starting point is 00:48:49 Honestly, I felt there was a weight lifted off my shoulders. These were things that I carried for probably 20 years, 15 years. And when I really do get into those dark times, I basically isolate myself and give everybody the Heisman because I almost feel like I am causing more stress to their life or I'm a burden or this, that, or the other. So I go strictly internal and almost like I pick at scabs or internal scabs that really hurt. So I almost try to inflict pain, but not literally inflict pain. So it gets bad. And when it does get bad, it really spirals. And I'll say one thing, Haki was over here. Was that two years ago, Haki? Yeah, two years ago. Yeah, 2018. Yeah. I mean, that was one of the scariest ones that I've really experienced. And I honestly,

Starting point is 00:49:42 I feel like I'm alone. I feel like everybody's attacking me. And it's just, it's an uncomfortable feeling. But, you know, I basically, I guess the easiest way for describing it would be like a turtle going back into its shell. I want more than anything to feel like I am a human being because I feel like that's what I am. You know, I feel like, yeah, you know, I had a great talent and, you know, I put my mind to something and shit, I didn't give up, I went through ups and downs. And, you know, I was able to accomplish some pretty amazing goals. But, you know, at times, like, I feel like I'm, you know, almost a piece of meat and an object. And, you know, I think, especially during those times, when I start going there, you know, when I'm in dark times and start going there, it just,

Starting point is 00:50:22 it's just downward spirals. So that's why, you know, I alluded earlier to talking about, you know, how much my, mine and my wife's communication has really just grown through quarantine, because I would say I had a similar incident, you know, like I had in 2018, where, you know, it was very scary. And, and, you know, I know, Nicole was doing, you know, everything she could to help. And, you know, we were almost forced to grow and to change as a couple because of the current situation and, and, um, the situation at the time it was difficult, but honestly, like, I think that's the coolest thing for me that, that, that I am so excited about with having depression or with having anxiety, you know, because it, it, it

Starting point is 00:51:05 honestly makes me who I am. And, and, you know, it's, I, I understand it's never going to be fixable and, and it's a part of me for the rest of my life, but you know what, I think it's, it's something that I want to learn more about and something I'm excited to wake up every day and have that chance to learn more about. So, um, you know, like that's why I'm so, you know, I've spoken about my wife and I just, just communicating so much more. It's, it's crazy to, to even think that that was possible. But just going over leaps and bounds, you know, just learning more and more about how we both work and, and things we need to be careful of. So we don't trigger one another. It's been a,

Starting point is 00:51:40 almost a blessing in disguise for us. If I could just jump back to one thing that you said, whatever you need, please always. And if I'm, if I'm misquoting, please, please correct me. But for those who aren't familiar, could you describe what made 2018 scary? What was the experience? Uh, I mean, in 2018, I actually took a pair of golf shoes and I hit myself in the head with them. That was one of the very last times that I tried to inflict pain on myself. And I knew at that point, like that right there, I've never done something like that. I've never even thought about doing something like that. And the fact that I did, that right there was a message for me.

Starting point is 00:52:22 It was a red flag. So coming back to the house and, and, you know, I had a kind of a meltdown, but, you know, with Grant talking to Grant, talking to, you know, my wife, you know, like that was, that was just a learning experience that they're like, for me, like I basically am, you know, a pot of water, like at the, at the very last second, I'm ready to blow. And when I blow, it's pretty bad and it gets pretty ugly. You know, I was, I would say throughout my career, I'm great at compartmentalizing. I would say I could probably win a few more gold medals at that. But that's not something to be proud of.

Starting point is 00:52:55 So, you know, so I think like, you know, that's one thing that I've learned, you know, just to really talk about, you know, I've learned more about my emotions. And if I have something I don't like, I talk about it or I ask questions about it, you know. So I think, you know, with the experiences that I've gone through and the struggles that I've gone through, I feel like I have almost let my guard down in a way, you know, if that kind of makes sense, you know, like drop my shoulders, like taking a deep breath and, you know, just try to relax, you know, because I think throughout my whole entire life, I've been trying to shave hundreds of a second off my time. Right. And, and now it for, for everyday life, I'm, I'm trying to slow it down.

Starting point is 00:53:34 So it's, it's crazy now for me to look at life. So it's, it's yeah, the, the last four years have been interesting, but, but that in 2018, you know you know, that to this day was one of the scariest times of my life. That and 2014 after my second DUI. We talked about sleeping earlier and I have opened up more and more about this story just because it's a part of me. So basically throughout a whole entire life, throughout my entire life, most of my swimming career, we were prescribed Ambien for traveling, for trips, you know, to try to acclimate to times.

Starting point is 00:54:14 And that night after my DUI, I was happy that I only had two Ambien left. That was a sleep aid that I had. And who knows what would have happened if I had more? You know, I think those two moments for me are the two scariest moments of my life. And, you know, recently, you know, I'd say within the last handful of weeks, like I've, I've had a couple of real scary breakdowns where, you know, I almost really start shaking because I just don't know what to do. I don't know how to control anything. And yeah, that's about it. Thank you for sharing, Michael. Yeah. But it's like, you know, like, like, honestly, for me, yes, it is. It's wild to

Starting point is 00:54:57 think about. It's wild to talk about. But, you know, it's what makes me me. And, you know, hell, if I can learn from just understanding why I am certain ways or why I react certain ways, then I feel like I'm setting myself up to be a better person. And at the end of the day, that's all I want. I want to learn more. You know, you've heard us talk about stats, numbers, like I want to know stats. I want to know numbers. I want to know why. Like I just don't know why, why, why to every single question that you can possibly think about. So, you know, like I just, I always know there are so many other options out there. And, you know, if I come to a dead end, I can reach out to one of those options or, you know, I can backtrack a few steps and take a different route. And so, yeah, you know, I think really trying to simplify life and trying to slow things down for me is probably those are the two things that I would say I focus

Starting point is 00:55:45 on on a daily, daily basis. Yeah. Just to give myself a chance. Yeah. And Grant, I'm going to come back to you in just a minute because I want to do a similar expedition into some of the dark chapters to hear your stories. Before we get to that, I am looking at just a paragraph from an ESPN article that includes you, Michael, and I want to read a small portion of it and ask a question. So here's the portion. It says, in treatment, Phelps earned the nickname Preacher Mike because each day began with chapter of the purpose-driven life, a book given to him by former Baltimore Ravens linebacker and good friend, Ray Lewis. I don't know if you would still recommend this book or how you feel about it, but are there any

Starting point is 00:56:33 books or resources that you have found particularly helpful in your journey in experiencing these things? So I have a very close, a very close friend of mine, uh, who, you know, I asked, I feel very comfortable opening, opening up to and asking a lot of questions about, um, I think, you know, you know, I'm talking about hockey. Uh, he, he passes me a bunch of different books and, and some of the ones recently, I guess, like I, I, I was never somebody who liked to read books. And, and when Ray gave me that book, I wasn't, I wasn't spiritual in any way. Like I, I, I was never somebody who liked to read books. And when Ray gave me that book, I wasn't, I wasn't spiritual in any way. Like I had, you know, I wasn't religious, but you know, I think through my journey, I, I, I a hundred percent am spiritual without question.

Starting point is 00:57:16 There is a power that is greater than me. I don't know what it is, you know, but, but through my journey, I feel like I've learned so much from the books that I have received. The purpose driven life is one amazing one. Through my journey, I feel like I've learned so much from the books that I have received. The Purpose Driven Life is one amazing one. The Power of Now is an amazing one. Ego is the Enemy is one that I go back to a lot. The Self-Defense Art of Not Giving a Fuck is a great one.

Starting point is 00:57:41 I loved It Takes What It Takes. I thought that was a great one. Just little books like that where I can, for me, whenever I'm listening, I tend to do audibles. And when I'm listening to it, I really just, it's what we're all supposed to do. But I love just taking little small pieces that are similar to things that I did in my career like for me to be as efficient as I was in swimming, I had to learn the absolute bottom line of every single stroke, right? Like I had to be as efficient as I could with my body that I was given. So it's like, I've almost done that in ways. It's opened my mind and some really interesting new thoughts. It's given me, you know, new journeys to travel down, you know, roads to go down. But yeah, I mean,

Starting point is 00:58:25 I would say I cycle through a lot of those depending on, as you heard before, the dark moods that I'm in. I went back to the self-taught of not giving a fuck just because I felt like I was just attacking myself too much. And I just needed to get a handle of a few things and do what I'm teaching my kids, you know, take a lion breath, take a deep breath every once in a while and relax. You know, it's not it's not, you know, it's not about racing the clock in every single thing that you do in your life. So that's one one big, big key thing for me is just trying to be as simple in every form of life as I possibly can. And it's honestly, it's looking at my kids. And that's the greatest example. You know, I mean, we were talking about

Starting point is 00:59:11 it earlier. My two oldest boys were playing with a metal trash can the other day. You know, one of the trash cans where you step on it, the lid pops up. One of them is banging. One is banging on the top like it's a drum. The other one is stomping on the lid. And I was like, Boomer, what are you guys doing? And without missing a beat, he looks over and said, Dad, I've never seen one of these things before. And I couldn't do anything but start laughing. So I was like, all right, yeah, whatever. Like, go ahead.

Starting point is 00:59:37 Meanwhile, there's a hundred different noises going on. And like my, I mean, I was going crazy, but I just, I laughed a lot. Like I'm at, I damn near fell on the ground laughing. I was like, I mean, I was going crazy, but I just, I laughed. I damn near fell on the ground laughing. I was like, that's what kids are like. They're, they are the best example of really living in the moment. And it's, it's, you know, for me, I feel like having, having the time that I have around, around my kids during this quarantine, like I feel like I've, I have a few things that I can kind of log into the memory bank and go back to when Boomer's pressing that red button that I hate to be pressed inside of me. And he's trying to get my nerves and

Starting point is 01:00:10 go crazy on me. So, but kids are kids. And honestly, I've seen the, and one of the coolest things is they want to be us so bad. And honestly, they, they just love us. And, know it's it's uh you know for me told you i told you we'd get tears um uh for for me honestly it's taken some of the dark times that i've been through um you know just you know just literally being crying and and having your kids come up and give you a hug like those things like that right there um you know it's the greatest thing on the planet so yeah like there i mean it's just been it's been a treat and and uh yeah as a dad it's it's the greatest feeling in the world thank you michael uh grant we're gonna go back into the depths here a bit i was gonna say if you want to keep if you want to keep going you can it. It doesn't bother me. I just need a second to wipe the tears off, then I'm good.

Starting point is 01:01:07 I've already been through a whole heap of emotions just listening to that. Just going back to, you know, 2018 and that day when, you know, Michael was, you know, not Michael or was Michael, you know, just the other side of success, you know. So I just think, you know, it was tough to listen to that. I actually had water in my eyes just think um you know it was tough to listen to that i actually had water in my eyes just listening to it because it was um you know seeing one of your best mates um that you've known for so long and been through everything together um just go through that it was

Starting point is 01:01:37 it was brutal it was really really tough sounds brutal and what if what of your personal experience what did the dark times look like for you? Are there any particular instances that come to mind in terms of knowing when you needed help or hitting rock bottom? The first thing I'll say at the outset, it's really funny. As an athlete, you were told from day one, I mean, I started swimming when I was four and being competitive when I was five. So everything throughout my childhood and throughout my sporting career was, hey, if there's an obstacle, go through it, overcome it, beat it. You're injured, you're sick, whatever. Just turn into a gladiator and just keep going forward. That is your job. And it was almost like adversity was

Starting point is 01:02:21 your friend. And I call the expression now with mental health, it's like I got used to iron fisting my way through difficult periods in life. And that's not right. That's great as an athlete. That's a great attribute to have to push through pain and overcome those challenges to get the outcome. But in life, that actually doesn't work. And I found that out the hard way. And I realized how real mental health was. So I think, you know, for me, I remember, you know, been through the ups and downs. And I really never recognized that about myself, because I just kind of thought, okay, just put your boots back on and keep going. But, you know, a few years ago, when, you know, I went through a really

Starting point is 01:03:02 public divorce here in Australia, and everything that followed from that and innuendo and speculation and, you know, people questioning your value set just undid me. And I just didn't realize how much it undid me and how much it took me down. And, you know, I got to a point where, you know, in early 2017, you know, just kind of one more thing. It's one more thing where I was sitting in a hotel room completely isolated two security guards on that floor so no one would come near my room you know sitting on the front page of the newspaper and the news just what's going on with me and and then I think the four days that I had there and I was texting Michael at the time I literally had over a thousand messages in my phone on on WhatsApp, on my email and on my SMS

Starting point is 01:03:47 within about a three-hour timeframe. And I think I got back to three people and Michael was one of them. And Alison Schmidt, who lived with Michael too, were the only people that I got back to. And I think I've used words like, oh, I'm just scared. And everyone thinks you're invincible for what you've done. But like everybody else, you just have those vulnerabilities. And when it's so public, it just exaggerates the situation and amplifies it and creates another layer of

Starting point is 01:04:13 complexity that you have to deal with. And I just made a commitment to myself, I think, at the end of that, that I'm never going to allow myself to get to this spot again. Anytime that I feel like you're getting pushed to that edge or things are going wrong, I'm just going to adopt the strategies that I now know instead of denial. Because I would always put myself in denial. I wouldn't let myself be vulnerable. And even my fiancée, Charlene, now, like if I start talking about the way I'm feeling in isolation or going through a stressful period and she goes, oh, she is so proud of me. She goes, oh, I just love it when you're vulnerable.

Starting point is 01:04:48 And I said, oh, I feel like a bit of a pussy, to be honest, but yeah, cool. And so it's like, you know, and then I'm like, wow, I feel better afterwards, you know, that open and honest transparency and my relationship is better as well. So it's like wow doing doing this vulnerability thing which was the number one thing that i found i had to tap into going through those stages in life and phases um whenever they embark upon upon you and they come across at the weirdest times too like even when things are great and going well sometimes that's it can be a low point um after that you have to deal with that so yeah i mean i made that

Starting point is 01:05:25 decision back in 2017 i basically lived with michael most of that year um and he was he was my biggest supporter um and you know when i went and did you know therapy and got some help he was a guy you know drove me there and dropped me off and we had talks till 2 3 a.m sometimes you know later in the morning and he'd come in and wake me up in the morning with the dogs and boomer crawling on the bed all over me which i really appreciated but you know it's it's those sorts of times where you know we'll just always be there for each other but people see us as these people who've achieved great things and won multiple olympic gold medals and world records and all that sort of stuff but yeah just because you're good at something doesn't mean

Starting point is 01:06:02 that you don't you know fall into the same fate as everybody else when it comes to mental health or just being a human. And yeah, I had to learn those things definitely the hard way. You were mentioning the vulnerability with your significant other. I was just having a conversation last week with a coach who you could really consider on some level a therapist.

Starting point is 01:06:27 And he said to me, candor is the ultimate aphrodisiac. It seems to have a lot of benefits, not just singular benefits. And you mentioned strategies. hear what other rules or strategies you have found or developed for yourself so that when you when you sense yourself edging towards the brink you are better able to reel yourself away from it i think um just doing everything proactively i i exercise like michael you know six six days a week I try and make myself have a recovery day, which is hard when you've got personalities like ours. We don't, we know the importance of recovery, but we just like to keep going and going and going. So that's one

Starting point is 01:07:16 thing. The other thing that I do, it's funny, I went to stop, you know, sort of drinking for a year. And then I got to a year and I was kind of like, you know what, I don't even feel like drinking anymore. And it's not like I was ever a person who drank every day by any means, it would be far and few between, but I could go hard if we were having a night with the boys or something like that, or use it to escape. So I stopped drinking. So full stop, I got to a year and I was like, you know what, I don't even feel like that anymore. It's not something in my life that I value or I like or it brings value to me. So I don't do that.

Starting point is 01:07:51 I also make sure that I get enough sleep. That's really important for me. I eat very healthy. You know, diet has been a big part and just that whole sort of health regime that I have to follow just to make sure that I'm in a good space. And the one thing that I still find difficult that I do, and, you know, we just touched on it, is I talk about it. I talk about where I'm at, how I'm feeling, why I'm feeling like that instead of bottling it up. Michael and I, we're the kings of compartmentalizing things and actually just locking them away. I'll deal with that box when I need to deal with that box.

Starting point is 01:08:24 But unfortunately, that box is growing and being fueled. And when it goes, it's not good. It's not good at all. And Michael and I know this best. So I try and jump into that box and I try and work through it, try and get it out. And so I think for me, it's all that sort of proactive stuff that I'm doing that and I feel more settled in my life now than I ever have. And you know what? And I know this with Nicole because I know, you know, Michael's wife extremely well and the wonderful human being that she is. Just how good she is for Michael in that situation,

Starting point is 01:08:58 how much he cares and loves him. Like it's actually beautiful to watch. It makes me, you know, because I've been through this stuff with her, you her you know like and and you know we've spoken about how we're there for michael and you know charlene's the same for me like i just that partnership of someone who gets you like she gets me she gets my my drive and ambition and and yet that that other mental you know sort of fault that you whatever you want to call it, vulnerability, those things that are imperfect. She gets that and she likes it and works with me on it. And so, I think I haven't necessarily had the right partnerships in life as well. So, I think, Tim, that's a really important part of who you're surrounding yourself by. But that significant

Starting point is 01:09:39 other can make and break in many respects too, because they've got to connect with a unique personality, which I know Michael and I certainly share uniqueness like that. So, you know, they're kind of the things that really matter. And look, it's been a journey to get to know all those things because I've made so many mistakes along the way, but I just know what makes me feel like more of me now and feels like a purpose and the things that help support and maintain that. Grant, do you see someone like a therapist on a regular basis or are they used only in cases of emergency or beginning to redline? I do if I've gone through a hard sort of period. I won't say on a consistent sort of week-to-week, month-to-month basis. But if I am going through a stressful period, I've definitely got that support network there and I'll jump online,

Starting point is 01:10:31 have a talk, get it out. Because sometimes it's, and I've learned this too, I didn't have really used a sports psychologist too much when I was swimming because I always thought, you know, I was invincible. So, and that was a weakness if i had to tap into that um little did i know that would have really helped me and i might have had a better trophy cabinet than what i've got if i if i recognize that at the time but now sometimes family members i know i spoke about significant other than but i know family members sometimes aren't necessarily the ones you should be tapping into because the emotion is just too close so having someone a little bit more objective has the skill set the understanding, someone you can have a different type of conversation with is really important. So definitely got that network in there, tap into it

Starting point is 01:11:13 when the flags kind of come up. What are the flags? When do you know it's time to take yourself in for a 60,000 mile checkup with a professional? What are some of the signs that you notice? I mean, we spoke about anger before. Michael was talking about that and the way he's able to channel it. And look, there's a negative connotation with anger because it's not always a bad thing. Sometimes anger can push you to get more out of yourself, to deliver an outcome that is amazing. But sometimes when you're edgy you're irritable you're you know you're not sleeping well you know the things just aren't escaping the mind i think all those kind of you know little red flags that sort of start to add up

Starting point is 01:11:57 and compound and you're just not removing that that stress that weight they're kind of the things that you start to recognize and go, hey, I'm going through a bit of, you know, this is not just a one-off right now. This is not a two-off. This has kind of been a little bit more sustained than what I would like. And I think I have a much greater ability to check in with that now than what I've ever had, where before it would be like that little box that I said it goes into, or just let's just stuff it back in there with the others. And I don't let that happen anymore.

Starting point is 01:12:28 So, yeah, it's mood more than anything else. And if it's a sustained poor mood, then, yeah, that's the thing that I go, okay, we've got to do something about this. Or, you know, in a situation where I've got twins from a previous marriage and I miss them like crazy when they're not here. And the impact that that had on me for so many years that I failed to even really talk about has been a big thing that I just highlight now. And I'll just go to Charlene, I'm just like, oh, I'm really missing Jagger or Charlize or, you know, and I'll just start to talk

Starting point is 01:12:59 about it. And then all of a sudden, you know, you kind of get on the other side of that. So they're kind of the things that I recognize now that aren't as big a blind spots as they were previously and when you talk to a professional if you do what does the format look like is it more about really just getting it off your chest and talking to someone or is there a particular type of guidance or a format that is helpful to you? I have a guy who I tap into and he's almost got a comical element to his style, which I really love that because he's extremely intelligent, very, very bright. And look, I'll write down the things that I'm feeling and that I feel like i've got to really check in with and and get through and ask questions about so i'll do that so that's the structure i come in with he'll then just pull out stuff on all of that that just makes it um

Starting point is 01:13:55 takes the emotion out of it almost it almost goes it's more pragmatic he goes you know this is why that would happen this is why you feel like that you know what you're kind of catastrophizing that that's not as big as you seem like and then he'll make you know comparisons and perspectives uh around other people or other situations and it kind of gives you a different view and it's like he just comes in and provides these additional lenses that i didn't have that he's just given me and i kind of cover off all the topics like that and then and we have a laugh through it all too once you kind of get on the other side of each of those areas and and so i find that that style um has really worked with me it's a good question tim no one's ever actually asked me that before well you know if i can get one novel question and i'll be quite pleased with

Starting point is 01:14:40 myself uh you guys have been interviewed 500 million times, so I'm glad to give myself a pat on my bald head for that one. And I'll follow it up because you mentioned something that I find very interesting, and that is sending something in written form to this therapist beforehand. Is it a stream of consciousness? I'm feeling this because of this. And is it just like one gigantic paragraph or page or is it something else that just seems like such a time saver to provide that context to someone in advance so they can actually put some some thought into how they might respond to you i think you i mean you probably got the sense through the chat you know michael and i were very analytical we think through everything in every situation and every outcome that's the reason we we know you know every time with respect

Starting point is 01:15:29 to our events and you know the timeline and history of our sport so well and and i think if i'm going to approach something i might as well do it properly and get the absolute most i can out of it so it's just dot points um dot points and specific areas like things that have been on my mind situate dot points dot points or bullet points i guess and yeah yeah and i'll be coming yes so yeah i can i can just say for all of that stuff yeah thank you thank you i got you i'm fluent it's good when i go over and stay with michael um we'll go out and i'll say something and he'll repeat it for me and i was like yeah, what he said, because everyone sort of looked at me like I've got two heads. But Michael is the ultimate at deciphering Aussie slang.

Starting point is 01:16:12 He knows it. Yeah, so bullet points is exactly what I jot down. Dart points. Yeah, dart points. Yeah. So, yeah, and so for me that works. They kind of just cover the areas, the topics that have been on my mind or the situation. Normally, it's more of a situation for me.

Starting point is 01:16:31 Day to day, I'm pretty good. It's more if I've come across something that's sustained stress or I can't work through myself. And look, to be honest, that seems to be happening a little bit less in my life. But in saying that, I know it could intensify at any point in time. And I recognize that you've got to always stay on top of those things. And it's been great for the work that I do now and the life that I have and the dad that I am. I think I've just improved across so many different areas. And it's probably where I refer back to sport. I'm like, damn, I wish I used that sports psychologist a lot more and tapped into that. I didn't even recognize

Starting point is 01:17:04 vulnerability for a split second throughout basically my entire career. And I feel like that was a bit of a disaster now. And it actually probably would have set me up better for post-sport career as well. Well, it seems like a lot of superpowers have on the other side of the coin, super weaknesses almost by definition, right? Because if you have a hyper focus on anything in life, by definition, you have to neglect other things. You only have so much attention to slice and dice, right? And if you're using compartmentalization as one of the tools for optimizing as a competitor, which every competitor I've interviewed on this

Starting point is 01:17:47 podcast seems to be very good at, then there's sort of a price associated with that when it's applied more broadly speaking. Michael, do you meet with therapists or professionals on a regular basis? I'm online all the time. I mean, with everything, with traveling as much as I do, I spend a lot of time on Talkspace. I've worked with Talkspace for a few years now. And honestly, for as much time as we're on our smartphones, it's just kind of a no-brainer. But also besides that, like the hackies point, I'll be the first one to admit I still compartmentalize a little bit but i'll say i don't think i would make the podium anymore if i was competing in it so i i think i've

Starting point is 01:18:31 definitely improved but my big thing is just i i i pile things up sometimes and and you know like i can't agree with what hackie said uh and and what you were saying as well tim like when we did that in our career like like i was almost selfish in in a way where I everything I was doing in my life was based around something, every single decision I made. And now with the family, it's it's not that way, my life is different. So I have to take a step back and almost reassess everything. And that's what I was saying, like, you know, really simplifying everything to the smallest form, because that's, that's what Grant and I, you know, did during our career. And honestly, like's what Grant and I, you know, did during our career. And honestly, like I was sitting here taking notes, listening to, you know, kind of what Grant

Starting point is 01:19:09 was, Grant does when he's, you know, kind of feels himself, you know, spinning. I literally was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what I had to do if I wanted to learn underwater dolphin kick or, you know, like I had to break it down to the simplest form. So, you know, like that's really what I have to do more and, you know, give myself, you know, a little bit more credit from time to time where I'm as hard on myself as I am. You are the toughest person on yourself that I know. It's brutal, bro. Like, bro, I'm sitting here looking at like, I mean, I can't even, I got some of these names that I have on my desk. I'm not I'm not going to repeat. But I mean, Haki, like, you know, like, I also like to Haki's point, like, I love writing stuff down,

Starting point is 01:19:50 writing stuff down to see, you know, like, especially with dates, you know, because times for me are so important. So if I know I'm going through a dark phase, like, what was I writing? Like, why was I thinking these things? So, you know, like here, like, I've felt alone, or I felt dark lately. So those are things that I have written on my calendar. So like, if I sit down, I see that and I'm like, why was I feeling dark? Like I have so much to be, you know, happy for. I have so much to be proud of. Like there's so many amazing things going on in this world with me, with my life, with everything. Like, why am I dark? Why am I afraid? Why do I feel worthless almost? So, you know, like I feel like writing stuff down really helps. And like, that's why like for

Starting point is 01:20:29 listeners out there in particular, like if you guys find ways to simplify things, because we live in an over a crazy, crazy moving, crazy, fast moving world where, you know, there's always things trying to get our attention. So if we can simplify things and focus on what's important to us, you know, I think it just, it makes our life easier, right? Like there's, there's less stress to worry about. So, and, and you hear Haki, like Haki talking, like communicating shit. I made the joke that I learned how to communicate at the age of 30. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, I mean, I can laugh about it because I like, I was really good at compartmentalizing, but like like that's not good so you know like that that's that's why I like I talk so much about this this quarantine and and

Starting point is 01:21:11 you know how much it's forced us to become vulnerable in a way because there's so much unknown so it's like if we want to give ourself a chance then we have to do something different so you know if it's opening up and talking about something that is scary, try it, you know, cause like, I'll say like all this stuff that, that, you know, I've, I've talked about, you know, throughout that, that happened throughout my career. I mean, should I carry that thing? I look like all that stuff along for 10 years. So, you know, like having that out and open, not it, one makes it so much easier to talk about but two it like there's there's so much less weight on my shoulders i feel i feel normal you know like like talking about this stuff that i know there are so many other people that go through the same thing or in similar different

Starting point is 01:21:57 ways like like i i just i i don't know like i i just i feel so much better like my shoulders drop and and that's just something that i will always say and try to push. There's a weight, there's a weight to secrets or keeping things inside or there can be. And it makes me also want to mention that there is a, a new documentary, HBO documentary out called the weight of gold in which you're featured very heavily. Why be part of that? And I think we've probably mentioned a lot of the reasons why, but maybe a better question, because that's kind of a lazy question and I should know better.

Starting point is 01:22:37 Better question is, how does it feel having done that? maybe you could describe it feels yeah yeah yeah please please please say more and and just for those who don't have any context the weight of gold is an hbo sports documentary very very well shot exploring the mental health challenges that olympic athletes often face just wanted to provide that since i didn't explain it but could you could you expand say more about what it felt like to do that? As you've heard, or as people have seen or read, I struggled throughout my whole career. So in 2016, where I was probably more aware of just life in general and everything that was going on more than I ever have in my life. So, you know, at that point, I saw that there were other

Starting point is 01:23:25 athletes that were going through similar things like I was, you know, going through opening ceremonies and seeing athletes, you know, almost body language. Like, I feel like that's something that I've learned to read really well over, you know, throughout my life. But I started, like, reading people, but I also started hearing things that people were saying, you know, seeing things that people were posting or this or that. And I was like, Oh, like literally I said, Oh shit, this is a lot bigger than I thought, you know, because I, I, I always knew it was, you know, mental health in general was something that was very big, but I almost like it, I felt like it smacked me in the face at the 2016 Olympics and, you know, losing way too many of our family members in the Olympic world over the last five years. I want to cry every time I think about it. So, you know, for me, losing you mean suicide, committing suicide?

Starting point is 01:24:18 Yes. So for me to be able to do this documentary with the athletes that we had who were so vulnerable. I honestly, I can't thank them enough for opening up and, you know, being them, being their authentic self and filling, I guess, sharing some stories about, you know, what we experienced and what we go through. But, you know, as we stated earlier, this is something, you know, there's a massive stigma around mental health. And this is something that, a journey that I've started on and I'm breaking the wall down as fast as I can. And the more that people stand up and talk about their stories and their struggles, we're going to break it down piece by piece. And doing this documentary, I feel is an awesome first step and just and, you know, just kind of a raw look at, at some of the things

Starting point is 01:25:05 that go through our heads and that we experience. And we're not this, this statue, you know, we, we are human being. And it was something, yeah, like I said, I can't say enough. I'm super proud of it. It just shows just like I'm, I'm, I was a kid in a candy store working on it. Um, this is something it's, it's, you something, it's like my baby. So I guess really since I opened up in 2014 about my struggles with depression and anxiety, I really kind of took it by the horn, so to say. And this is my mission.

Starting point is 01:25:39 I'm going to do everything I can, one, to learn as much as I can about mental health, but also try to help as many people as I can can break this wall down. The suicide number is continuing to climb and it frustrates the hell out of me. I mean, I read a story last night going to bed of two brothers that are on a show over in London. And honestly, I just, my heart hurts because I feel some of the pain that they go through. And I think the biggest thing, I want people to know that there is help on the other side. I've been and I've seen a lot of really dark places throughout my life.

Starting point is 01:26:14 But I also know that I'm not alone. So when I look at that word on my desk that I wrote down, I am not alone. But that's part of my darkness. And, and, you know, I think just always, always knowing that, that, that there's somebody out there that that's what we all have to realize. Um, no matter what we're going through, somebody is there to hold your hand, to give you a hug, to, you know, whatever it is that you need, because we, we, we are not alone in life. And, and honestly, we can't do anything in life by ourself. Like, it's really hard if you think about it.

Starting point is 01:26:48 You know, and if we can include other people that love us and want to be around us, then it makes life 10 times better. That was one thing that I had to learn the hard way with compartmentalizing throughout my career is I couldn't do it by myself. It was impossible. I couldn't handle the stress of the emotions and the feelings, all that stuff that was building up inside of me while I'm trying to perform at the absolute best. It's impossible. It's unhealthy. So, you know, I think that's the biggest thing, you know, really being able to do it and put it together. And, you know, I was honestly frustrated with how long, I mean, I'm somebody that wants stuff done fast. So, you know, I never realized how long the process, right? So I never really realized how long the process of making

Starting point is 01:27:33 a piece like that takes. And to be honest, I'm extremely thankful that it came out and we were able to launch it during COVID because it's the single, you know, that was the one thing that I was deathly afraid of when everything started happening was the impact on everyone's mental health that this was going to take. And we've seen suicide numbers increase. So, you know, I can't stress enough how important it is to, you know, you have something going on inside of you that's not normal. Say something to somebody, write it down, something, don't hold onto it. You know, I think life is, life is definitely too damn short. And, you know, as, as, as I said earlier, I want to slow down time as much as I can and be able to enjoy everything that, that,

Starting point is 01:28:20 that life has to offer. Totally. And one way of slowing down time is sharing time with others. And it strikes me that, of course, on one level, I respect both of you tremendously as just icons of competition, as champions of achievement. But what impresses me even more than that is the model of male friendship and brotherhood and mutual support that you guys have demonstrated, certainly privately, but also publicly. And I'm just so happy to have both of you on this call because that seems so foundational to your success as not

Starting point is 01:29:10 athletes necessarily, although that could be part of it, but as humans is having that deep bond and mutual support. And like you said, Michael, even if you are out there and feel alone, which is very easy during COVID, and it's easy all the time in modern industrialized cultures because we are very much compartmentalized physically and separated from a lot of interaction and cohabitation and so on. like Talkspace. There are professionals who are available and just reaching out to someone can release so much pressure in the system and there are options. So I feel like the weight of gold as a doc coming out now is great timing during very bad times for millions of people. So I couldn't agree more. And Grant, I realized I did not come back and ask you one of the questions that I'd asked Michael, which was related to books or resources that you've found helpful. My audience is always interested in books,

Starting point is 01:30:20 certainly any resources or tools, but are there any books that come to mind for you that were either particularly helpful with respect to challenging times or books overall that you've recommended or gifted the most to other people? Oh, I think I gave the subtle art to Michael. So that was one gift. Which was that? The subtle art of not giving a fuck was, that was one, one gift. Which was that? The subtle art of not giving a fuck. So. Ah, yes. Yeah. Mark Madsen. Yeah. Yeah. So that one, I just reread that probably a couple of months ago,

Starting point is 01:30:54 that that book always just takes me back one or two steps and renews my perspective on situations because, you know, I'm, I'm a hyper individual. When I get onto goals and tasks and things that I want to deliver, I sometimes get the blinkers on in such an intense way that I can lose perspective on things around me. So I'm really a lot more aware and conscious of that now and I make sure I've got things like that. His follow-up book was great. I really enjoyed that. I actually read that and bought it for a mutual friend of ours, Tim Matt Target, for his birthday last year in December. Yeah. So I enjoy his reading.

Starting point is 01:31:32 I read a lot of journals. I even read a lot of Harvard Business Review articles. There's one I like in particular, and it's really funny. This will sound a little bit counterintuitive around mental health, but it's about mental toughness um and there's you know they've got their sort of mini books that you can you can read all the journals that they've had around that particular subject matter and i love that because it resonates with me you know 100 so i find i actually need to not just read things that give me renewed perspective but actually things that make me feel more like me

Starting point is 01:32:03 and that's one of the things that the psychologists that I've dealt with, because, you know, we always talk about purpose and meaning and all this sort of stuff. And he had this really interesting thing that he said to me, because, you know, people have this high expectation of you once you've achieved certain things in life and you have a greater expectation of yourself more than anybody else. And he just said to me, he goes, just do more things that make you feel like you. And that has always stuck with me because it's like, okay, what do I value? What do I truly value? And it's funny that upon the basis of that saying or that statement, I really got back to my own core values. And then I did things that sort of checked into those values. And it's funny because I always had people tell me, oh, Grant, just slow down. Just, you know, enjoy it. Just relax. Don't,

Starting point is 01:32:59 you know, don't try and do everything to the top level every single time. I hate when people say that shit. God, it pisses me off so much. I tried that. And you know what? I realized that's not me. Like doing things mediocre is not me. I can't stand that.

Starting point is 01:33:17 And it was funny. All the things that disconnected with my value set destabilized me. And so I focus on reading things, reading journals, doing things that connect more with me. And those things like mental toughness, reading about Navy SEALs, reading about different training strategies, that sort of stuff I really love. And I find that an escape for my personality. So that's quite interesting. And then I love commerce and love business. So I read a lot of different business books and articles. So they're kind of the things that I just enjoy. So yeah, it's always just reconnecting with purpose for me that actually slows my mind down, gives me perspective. And then, yeah, the books that I just referred to certainly have helped me round out that view even more so. Do you have any favorite, since you mentioned it, I know this might seem off topic, but it's not since this is about your lives and not just one

Starting point is 01:34:11 facet, any particular favorite business books? And I'll just mention for folks also, Harvard Business Review has a book, which is HBR's 10 Must Reads on Mental Toughness and features Martin Seligman, Tony Schwartz, Warren Bennis, and others. And that's $24 or $25. You can find that online, and I'll link to that in the show notes. Are there any business books that are real standouts for you? There's one I'm reading at the moment that I'm really enjoying, which is Phil Knight's Shoe Door. I've got to read this book.

Starting point is 01:34:45 I've got to read it.. I've got to read it. It's been recommended to me 100 times. Yeah. So I'm in the middle of that. I've got to say that's definitely one that springs to mind. That's definitely top of the list. Other ones that stand out, I mean, probably that one for now. The other ones that I enjoy reading, I enjoy just general sort of leadership.

Starting point is 01:35:04 So I read a lot of stuff that relates to that in business and knowing and understanding what the fundamentals are. I've probably got, if I walked into my bedroom, seven or eight books that I want to read that I haven't at the moment. I always enjoy reading things around Warren Buffett. I've read a lot of books that relate to him just on his mindset and his approach towards things. Because the one thing that I've really found in high performance, you don't actually have to read always on your specific subject matter. And when it comes to business, I always find I read articles mostly like strategy articles or growth initiatives or what was the change in Boeing or Airbus when Airbus said, okay, we've got to do the A380. But you know what? If we get

Starting point is 01:35:46 this wrong, it's actually going to send us bankrupt. What was the inflection point where business became great? And I enjoy Jim Collins, like his books, Good to Great, are really interesting just to learn about. I find any sort of success story is the same. It is just a daily grind of mundane things that you just have to keep getting right and improve by 0.1 of a percent and then do it again the next day, then do it again the next day. Then eventually, you know, momentum and the flywheel as it's referred to in that book kind of click into place. And then all of a sudden, many years later, you've got this outstanding result that people think is an overnight success that took you 15 years to get there. So that's

Starting point is 01:36:25 the way I find most things work. And so I love reading around the principles of, you know, high performance and success in any single field, whether it's a Navy SEAL, whether it's business, whether it's sport, whether it's, you know, in music, you know, the School of Julia, like whatever it might be, those principles are the same. And I'm always trying to identify those because I've got to be honest, I love it. Like I'm passionate about it. I'm passionate about learning about it, talking about it, reading about it. So, yeah, they're probably always the things that I try and tap into.

Starting point is 01:36:55 And, again, it comes back to that saying that I said before, just do things that make you feel more like you. That's not everyone's cup of tea. Winning Olympic gold medals is not everybody's cup of tea because the sacrifice you have to make for that, for most people, is probably not often worth it. But for the two guys you've got on this call, we'll do anything to get those things and sort of have the same approach to everything else that I try and achieve or want to achieve. I love that expression, doing more things that make you feel like you. I've never heard anything or never heard the message

Starting point is 01:37:25 worded quite that way, but it's very succinct and very deep if you spend some time on it. Thank you for sharing that. Michael, are there any other books or resources that you would like to mention just to give you another dip at the well? I was sitting here looking at the little bookshelf that we have behind. We have a scatter in here, but I was sitting here looking at these books, and there's two of them that popped into my head

Starting point is 01:37:52 that, one, I've gone back to. So for trying to slow things down, I tried to mix in more of a daily reading. So Mark Nepo has a good one, The Book of Awakening. And then The Daily daily stoic i mean i feel like some of those things you know you know you can really just like almost just take a step back right take a deep breath let it like you know read a quote read you know a single page whatever it is let it marinate and and you know just for me it's just something that's so easy

Starting point is 01:38:21 to do but something that's so awesome to do to start your day. I just feel like it just gives you some kind of purpose of what you're doing. And when life is too fast, again, it gives you that second to take that step back. Yeah. Daily Stoic and ego is the enemy. You got a whole lot of Ryan Holiday on your bookshelf. It's funny. I just got the Daily Stoic from my coach uh or my old coach sorry bob bowman and um i've gotten a few of the other books as i was saying earlier from you know seth hackie right yeah yeah yeah yes he's he's like he's one of like my favorite human beings on this

Starting point is 01:39:04 planet to have a communication or a conversation with excuse me uh but some of the books that he's like, he's one of like my favorite human beings on this planet to have a communication or a conversation with, excuse me. But some of the books that he's given me really have like, like he, he, I feel like he has a really good understanding about me as a person and how I work. And he's a very, very smart human being. So I feel like some of the things that he's given me to read are again, back to my point, just simple ways for me to understand something that I might be too hard on myself with, or, you know, I might be too hyper focused on one thing, right? So, you know, almost giving me that bigger picture, you know, trying to be that lake instead of being that glass of water. So yeah, I think like a lot of the books that I have that I'll rifle through time and time again, uh, I think have been super helpful just to, yeah, I mean, I, I think more, more

Starting point is 01:39:50 than anything, just give me a chance. Like I, I feel, you know, for me, like a lot of my life was focused on swimming and, and, um, that really was it. Like, you know, it's hacky, hacky knows being an Olympian, your whole life is focused on one thing. Nothing else matters in life, but that I'm honestly really learning how to live on dry land. So to say, um, you know, I, I kind of made the joke throughout the last, uh, last few

Starting point is 01:40:17 years. I feel like I've taken more strokes in the swimming pool than I've taken steps on land. Um, so it's, uh, it's, it's, it makes it challenging when you have a freight train trying to come down the middle of a tree, uh, the street with no tracks on it. Um, so it's, it's been difficult at times slowing me down, but, but I feel like some of those simple, you know, kind of different approaches to looking at things, um, for me just have benefited so much just because I because I can't expect to fill up everybody's cups if my cup isn't filled up, right? Like I have three boys and an amazing wife and a

Starting point is 01:40:55 household here that I'm in charge of my roles, right? So if I'm not taking care of myself and filling my glass up by taking the time that I need for me, I have no shot in being able to be a good husband, a good friend, a good dad. So I just want to have a chance. And I feel like that's what I did in my career. My preparation, it was the process. It was the whole process of it all that I learned. But the preparation was so key. So it's just trying to slow things down i don't know

Starting point is 01:41:30 i bet that makes sense but yeah it's it's something that it does um yeah it's been it's been enjoyable but but as you can imagine something that's been extremely challenging at times you know as you hear grant and i talk about we want to go fast and we like we want to get to uh point a to point b as fast as we can the fastest way but also the most effective way so how can we do it you know what i mean so it's like your mind's gone yeah totally sometimes you want to be the lake and other times you want to take a jet ski at 100 miles an hour across the lake. And some days it's hard to decide which one you want to do. Oh, man. Well, this has been such a fun conversation for me. And I just have one more question. And it's sometimes a difficult question. So if it doesn't work,

Starting point is 01:42:22 it doesn't work. But I'll give it a shot. And. And that is actually before I get there, I have to say, I've also found stoicism very, very helpful. And it's, it's such a small world because I actually published the audio book versions of both ego is the enemy and the daily stoic. I've heard it a lot. I think you've done some stuff with Trevor Mo out as well, I believe. I may have. Yeah. I might be wrong. I might be wrong. It's just such a small world. So let me ask a question that sometimes doesn't work because it is sometimes a hard question. I'll ask it of both of you. And the question is this, if you could put anything on a billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, it could be an image,

Starting point is 01:43:10 a quote, a question, a word, anything non-commercial on a billboard to get something in front of billions of people, what would it be? And if either of you want to take a stab at it feel free to jump if you want hacky yeah you want to go go ahead my head but um you go first bud uh i mean i i would just say it's okay to not be okay you know i think that's something that that for me um you know even in my darkest scariest moments like that's that's the one thing that nicole always says to me um you know and she'll throw her arms around me or ask if she can give me a hug sometimes, you know, if I am just like, if I really want to be alone, like that's the one thing, like she'll, she'll ask me, cause sometimes I just need that moment by myself. She'll ask to give me a hug.

Starting point is 01:43:57 My wife will ask me to give me a hug. So, you know, like it's, it's, she, like, we've just been able to, I mean, again, I can't say it enough, grow so much. So, you know, I it's, it's she, like, we've just been able to, I mean, again, I can't say it enough grow so much. So, you know, I, I would say again to everybody out there, like, it's okay to not be okay. And, and you're not alone. Like those, those two things I think can just go together. Just, I mean, with everything we've talked about on this call, uh, it's just, I mean, it's, it's in, in, in a difficult time, it's, it's something to just simplify it. Take a step back, take a deep breath and relax. Those are great. Those are great. Grant, any thoughts?

Starting point is 01:44:30 Yeah, the first thing that popped into my head, and I often think that's always the right and best answer, was if you want to put something on a billboard, just be you. Be you. Be you. Two words, very simple, because the more you do the things that, you know, make you feel like yourself, it brings out your personality, brings out who you are, makes you feel good about yourself. And you don't have to be something that's false or superficial or create an image for anybody else or anything else. And I think once you get back to that simplification, and to Michael's point, I think, you know, often you feel best about yourself. Often you find the things that you enjoy doing more often, often enough, you're living a life that just makes you feel good about yourself and, and, and, you know, connect better with

Starting point is 01:45:14 the people around you. So I think just be you and feel comfortable, comfortable in that. Excellent. I get it, man. Like, I honestly, that's like i i can just hearing you say that through through the last you know hour that we've that you've mentioned it to me like it's brought up so many things that that would help me just like simplify life and it just totally makes sense you know like there are times like i i i can say like i i mean i i play golf with or i've had the chance to play golf with a lot of professional golfers and and you know I recently got to play with you know I got to know John Rahm a little bit so the first time playing with them I'm like shit like I want to try to play as good as I can like I want to be in my you know

Starting point is 01:45:52 a game yada yada yada and I'm like well that's not me because I don't have the time and the preparation to perform how I expect to perform so I can't expect to be somebody else. I have to be me. That's something that, that, you know, I, I struggled a lot with and at times still do, you know, like where, where I feel like sometimes I am just a swimmer and because I feel like that's what the story has been, right. You know, every single headline is about swimming, swimming, swimming. And, and, you know, finally now, like that, like, that's why I've really, I'm so happy with everything we're doing with mental health, but you know, like that's, that's one thing that I really just saw myself as and not a human being. So, you know, I want to say thank you because like that, that quote right there is be you, um, you know, I think can simplify

Starting point is 01:46:40 a thousand things for me. I don't know how I've never heard you even say that, but thanks. I appreciate you bringing that up today. I had a brain fart like you before and it just popped into my head. I just went with it. Well, this has been really fun to have both of you on. And for everybody listening,

Starting point is 01:47:03 we'll link to everything in the show notes, as usual, at Tim.blog forward slash podcast so you won't miss anything. The documentary that was mentioned is The Weight of Gold. That is an HBO documentary. Grant, people can find you

Starting point is 01:47:17 on Instagram at grant underscore underscore Hackett, H-A-C-K-E-T-T, two underscores. And then Michael, people can find you on Twitter at Michael Phelps, Facebook, Michael Phelps, Instagram at M underscore Phelps, zero, zero. Is there anything else that you gentlemen would like to mention? Anything else that you'd like to add as a closing comment or anything at all?

Starting point is 01:47:44 I've got to say, I'm so proud of uh michael as a friend you know he knows i love him like a brother and you know but um people have seen him as a product right because the guy's so successful and so amazing and achieve things that no one else ever has in the history of sport and um but to hear how open and honest and transparent and forthright he is around mental health because i know he wants to help other people to to me is just an outstanding characteristic and um you could never underestimate the strength but michael always has that strength um to to do that sort of stuff so yeah man that was it was awesome to hear you today it was it was emotional for me sitting on the other side because I've been there.

Starting point is 01:48:27 I've been right there with you sitting in the closet talking. Launching my phone, right? I just shattered that thing for you. Shattered that thing. But, no, I think, yeah, no, that's just been awesome, and I've really enjoyed that today. And, look, I'm sure that will help a lot of people. And I know that's exactly what you like to do.

Starting point is 01:48:52 Thanks, Hector. Honestly, likewise, bro. I mean, we've both been through our fair share of ups and downs publicly and privately. And, you know, as you know, my circle is super tight. I love you like a brother. Honestly, it's awesome to see the journey that you've been on.

Starting point is 01:49:14 Honestly, just welcoming a new baby. Jeez, dude. It's so cool. So special. Awesome to watch. I miss you like hell. As selfish as it is, I wish you lived next door. We need our compound. I know.

Starting point is 01:49:26 We'll still do that. Tim, honestly, it's been great. For me, even though with the relationship and as close as I am with Hackey, I've been able to learn even more about him today. I'm excited that we, somebody finally put this together, the two of us to, to be able to just chat for, for two hours. Um, honestly, it was a treat. Um, and, and, you know, we've listened to, uh, a lot of you over the years. I look forward to listening to a lot more. Um, if it's okay, I'd love to grab your email from my team and stay in touch. And honestly,

Starting point is 01:50:07 if you have any books or anything, I truly, it's something that, as I said, I think I've read more books in the last five years or listened to more books in the last five years than I have in the previous 30. So I think it's funny how life works and how open I am or how much more open I am now. And, you know, that wall is down a little bit more. So, yeah, anything that, you know, I'm always eager to learn. And it's just been a fun process. I can't thank you enough for having us on today. This is a true treat.

Starting point is 01:50:44 Yeah, total blast for me. An experiment, certainly, especially scattered across the world as we are. And it worked out. I'm so happy that we were able to come together. And thanks for the kind words also. The book that I would recommend more than any other is not one of mine. It's actually a book called Awareness by Anthony DeMello. It's a short book, D-E-M-E-L-L-O, Anthony DeMello.

Starting point is 01:51:11 And I will definitely share my email and sell with both of you guys. And you can feel free to reach out anytime, certainly. And hopefully we'll meet in person sometime. And it has been such a treat. So thank you both very much. And I wish you both a wonderful weekend. You too. Thank you so much for having us, Tim. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday

Starting point is 01:51:46 that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a

Starting point is 01:52:17 little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. ButcherBox makes it easy for you to get high quality, humanely raised meat you can trust. They deliver delicious 100% grass fed, grass finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, and wild caught seafood directly to your door. For me, in the past few weeks, I've cooked a ton of their salmon, as well as two delicious barbecue rib racks in the oven. Super simple. They were the most

Starting point is 01:53:00 delicious pork ribs I've ever prepared. My freezer is full of ButcherBox. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for all. That means caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying better meals together. ButcherBox partners with folks, small farmers included, who believe in going above and beyond when it comes to caring for animals, the environment, and sustainability. And none of their meat is ever given antibiotics or added hormones. So how does it work? It's pretty simple. You choose your box and your delivery frequency. They offer five boxes, four curated box options, as well as the popular custom box. So you get exactly what you and or

Starting point is 01:53:39 your family love. Box options and delivery frequencies can be customized to fit your needs. You can cancel at any time with no penalty. ButcherBox ships your order frozen for freshness and packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. It's easy. It's fast. It's convenient. I really, really enjoy it. And best of all, looking at the average cost, it works out to be less than $6 per meal. Get ready for game day or cozy night in with ButcherBox. Right now, new members will get one rack of St. Louis-style ribs, one pack of bacon, and a pack of pulled pork for free in their first box by going to butcherbox.com slash Tim. One more time, that's butcherbox.com slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. My God, am I in love with Eight Sleep.

Starting point is 01:54:26 Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on and repeating ad nauseum. But now I am falling asleep in record time faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by 8sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced but most user-friendly solution on the market. I polled all of you guys on social media about the best tools for sleep, enhancing sleep, and Eight Sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite. I mean,

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #494: Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett — Two Legends on Competing, Overcoming Adversity, Must-Read Books, and Much More

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #494: Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett — Two Legends on Competing, Overcoming Adversity, Must-Read Books, and Much More

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