The Tim Ferriss Show - #526: B. Jeffrey Madoff — Dealmaking, The Hidden Persuaders, Working with Ralph Lauren, and Finding the Secret to Life in the Mojave Desert

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Starting point is 00:04:35 directed award-winning commercials, documentaries, and web content for clients around the world, including Ralph Lauren, Victoria's Secret, and Tiffany. His book, Creative Careers, subtitled Making a Living with Your Ideas, is based on the class of the same name he teaches at Parsons School of Design. Jeff has been a featured speaker at Wharton School, Princeton University, NYU Steinhardt, Google Next, Barclays Rise, and Verizon on the topics of creating a brand and creativity. He also works with private equity firms and investment banks such asard, to create the brand story for companies that are being sold or for startups looking to attract investment. He graduated with honors from the University of Wisconsin with degrees in philosophy and psychology. We'll talk about that. He was also on the wrestling team,

Starting point is 00:05:17 might sound familiar, which combined with his academic studies prepared him for a life in the film business. You can find him online, acreativecareer.com, madoffproductions.com, and then on social and Instagram, at acreativecareer, as well as at madoffproductions. And Jeffrey, Jeff, welcome to the show. So fun to see you. Fun to see you too. Thank you for having me on. And to paint a picture, I am sweating profusely. The AC has broken in this home at an undisclosed location. And to hydrate, because I have nothing that is cold besides what is in my hand, I have hard kombucha and Jeff is drinking carbonated water. So this is an unfair fight to begin with. We'll see where this all goes. And I thought we would start with a, I suppose, the beginning of a story that I cut short when we were having lunch earlier today.

Starting point is 00:06:12 And it came about because of the phrase, scratching your own itch or scratching my own itch. And you mentioned Ralph Lauren, which I confirmed is not Ralph Lauren, as many people will say, but Ralph Lauren. So I thought we would just start there. And if you could tell me the story that I so rudely interrupted earlier, because I wanted to keep it for the beginning of the show. Well, I was talking to Ralph about how he got started, what motivated him to start a business. And Ralph's muse were the movies. He loved films and he would really lose himself in the fantasy of the movie house. And he'd look at people like Cary Grant and Fred Astaire and Gary Cooper, and he wanted to dress like that. And he wanted to find suits that were cut like that and ties

Starting point is 00:06:59 that were wide like that, and they didn't exist. And he started designing first with ties, then moved into the rest of menswear. And he started designing that stuff because it was stuff that he liked. And he figured I'm not the only one that wants to dress like a movie star. And so I said to him, you've kept your pulse on the consumer for so long. How have you done that for so many decades? I mean, that's quite a feat. And he said, which is a kind of scratch your own itch thing. He said, I know who my consumer is because I am the consumer. And so I thought that was just a really brilliant insight, not unlike when you and I spoke, when I interviewed you and you talked about your book,

Starting point is 00:07:43 the four hour work week, you know, it was the same kind of thing, you know, for sure. Yeah. Being, and that was also, I mean, you, you have spent so much time in front of students and speaking that I know in some respects, you know, what you've done in the classroom at Parsons School of Design is, is in some some respects scratching your own itch. And that is kind of doing what feeds and nourishes you or checks the box for an unmet need. And I had written this book because it was the book I couldn't find. And furthermore, I then had workshopped that, although I didn't know I was doing it at the time, by speaking to students. And I knew what students responded to, and I knew what fell flat. And it was sort of like a comic working on their one-hour special. It's like, you cut, you were fine, you test again. And that was the reason why after 26, 29,

Starting point is 00:08:33 however many rejections it was, I still kept going. People sometimes ask about how I maintained the faith. And I always point out it wasn't faith. I already knew that at least there was a verified market of one, which is ahead of a lot of folks. So let's talk about these degrees in philosophy and psychology. You've written in your book that at the time when you graduated, the wisdom factories weren't hiring. So what did you do after graduation? Well, I went to work in this boutique and I'd actually been working there before graduation. And it was this little clothing boutique in Madison, Wisconsin, where I went to college. The wall behind the cash register

Starting point is 00:09:18 is where we had the stereo system that puts it into a timeframe of many, many years ago. And we were in the base of a rooming house. So when somebody OD'd and fell down the stairs, the arm would skip across the album and we go up, there goes another one. Rooming house, that's, what is a rooming house? A rooming house is somewhere between an apartment and a hotel.

Starting point is 00:09:41 You know, you pay every week, you have a room upstairs. And let's say that the clientele aren't necessarily very upscale. Got it. In the campus where we were in downtown, this rooming house was kind of notorious. And what was sold in the boutique? We sold clothes at the old impulse buy, as they say, or at a restaurant, it might be mints, or when you're checking out at the grocery store, it's candy bars and magazines. We had hash pipes and rolling papers. That was the impulse buy.

Starting point is 00:10:18 Location, location, location, right? That's right. Underneath the rooming house. That's right. And how did that job inform your path if it did? Well, yes, it did, but I know how it informed it in retrospect. I didn't realize that before. And that is my firm belief. Here's some of the practical information. I think that everything you do, if your eyes are open, informs everything else you do. And so I didn't know anything about clothing design.

Starting point is 00:10:49 I was totally naive. I thought that when I saw fabric on the bolt, I thought that was wholesale because it hadn't been made into anything yet. So I was ignorant, fortunately not stupid. Uh, you know, and the difference is ignorant. You can learn stupids forever. So, you know, I did, I did learn and, you know, and I wanted to go back and refer to what you had mentioned in terms of your book, because I think this is a really important part. And that is you had at least 29 rejections. I believe it was like 34 before. It was a lot of rejections. I was also rejected for my first job.

Starting point is 00:11:32 That was 30, 30 plus rejections. Quite a few. So, you know, so what's that component that keeps somebody going in the face of all those rejections as opposed to giving up. And I think that when I'm asked about entrepreneurship and business and that sort of thing, what's a key ingredient? And I'm curious if you agree with this. I think it's perseverance. You mentioned ignorant, but not stupid. I think I would add to that informed perseverance because I think that you can smash your head against a wall and never break through. But if you have some informational advantage, meaning in my case, I had this feedback from students. I knew that the material worked in

Starting point is 00:12:25 front of live audiences, including people who would land squarely in the demographic the book would be positioned for. So I do think that's a huge component. If you have informed belief, having the commitment to persevere through the pain, I think, is a large, exciting factor. And I should also just add as color for this conversation, because people most likely have no idea, we first met in 2007 or 2008, shortly after the first book had been published. You helped with the For Our Body, many, many of the photographs from the photo shoot and photo shoots that we did related to exercises were a product of your help. We've definitely kind of been along jointly for each other's rides over the last, it's hard to believe, decade plus now. And I love this type

Starting point is 00:13:22 of conversation with a friend because it gives me the very unnatural sort of asymmetrical opportunity to just pepper you with all sorts of questions that I get to choose in a fairly lopsided way. Although this can certainly be a conversation, but it also gives me an excuse to do a bunch of homework on you, which would otherwise seem really creepy. So let me ask you, just as a way of looking at your earlier years, what or who are the hidden persuaders? My understanding, this is a book that had some effect on you. The Hidden Persuaders by Vance Packard. Is that a fair statement? Yeah, it is. Interesting you bring that up. Going back through the memory bank here, because I think I was in seventh or eighth grade, and I read this book. The Hidden Persuaders, what it related to is how products are placed and what creates desire. This was long before behavioral economics was applied to consumerism and that sort of thing. So to give a simple example, the colorful cereal boxes would be on

Starting point is 00:14:35 the lower shelves so that the kids would pull it off the shelf and basically nag their parent, usually their mother at that point, into buying it. And so there were all these things. I'd never thought about strategic placement of product or anything like that. And then I started realizing, wow, there's a whole science to this in terms of trying to elicit preferences, trying to place things in the right eye line. And the fact that instead of being at five feet, which might be eye level for the mother, it's down at two feet where it's eye level to the kid. And so the kid will take it off the shelf. So Packard's book was like, wow, I had never thought of that before. And it was really cool.

Starting point is 00:15:18 How did you end up going from from fashion as a designer, where you found quite a bit of success, to film and video production? How and why? Is this a miniseries? Because this is the beginning of our miniseries. Episode zero. I wanted to move to New York. And my financial backer was a very good guy, but he made it clear from the beginning that he was backing my company because we banked at his bank and that the employees, which, and I was 22 and I had like 110, 120 employees, I provided jobs for Wisconsinites and we banked at his bank. And when I made the decision that I wanted to move to New York, he said, you know, I'm not going to continue to back you if you do, you know why I invested. And so I had to make a really big decision at that point in my life, which is,

Starting point is 00:16:19 you know, I think 24. And do I, am I a failure if I close the business? You know, what does this mean to me and who I am? You know, I was the type that went out there and competed and did things. And now I would be closing down a business that I had started. Is that failure? What is that? And I decided, and I think part of this is an influence of my dad which is i learned that money comes and goes time only goes and that's a great way to put it and you know i mean i like the the way that words relate you know like you can spend money you spend time you waste money you waste time investing in your future. That's a really weird concept when you think about what does that mean? And so I decided

Starting point is 00:17:12 that I'd- If anyone heard that, that's Molly trying to eat flies that are deftly avoiding her maw. Please continue. I was so tempted to snap at that one myself, but I figured I didn't want to interrupt the sound. Don't want to throw your neck off. That's right. So, you know, I made the decision to close down the business. And it was really based on that kind of a conversation of realizing I could never replace the time, but I could replace the money. Quick interruption. Was the desire to go to New York to play in the big leagues of design? Well, I was already playing in the big leagues. And what made me unique was I was doing that from Wisconsin.

Starting point is 00:17:56 So why go to New York and enter the Shark Tank? Why go to New York? Because I discovered I'm a stimulus junkie. I love the energy of New York, the activity. If you're bored in New York, it's on you. There is so much going on all the time. And I can go hear a jazz concert, see a play, eat at a great restaurant, and walk to all those places. I love it. That's why flying saucers land in Wyoming. In New York, you can't find a place to park. So I was seduced by the energy of New York

Starting point is 00:18:35 and wanted to be there. And one of the people I did bought fabrics from, he said to me, do you know anything about the movie business? And I said, not really. I mean, I've read some books. I love film, but not really. And he said, well, my son is your age and you're a bright kid. You have a good head on your shoulders. Would you mind meeting him? Because he's getting involved with some people and he's not going to listen to me, but maybe he'll listen to you. Would you mind meeting with him? He's your age. I said, no, I don't mind at all. Happy to. Well, the people he was involved with was Dennis Hopper, William Burroughs, and Terry Southern. And Tommy, the son, had bought the

Starting point is 00:19:19 rights to Junkie, which was one of William Burroughs' novels. And Dennis Hopper was going to direct it and star in it. And so this was interesting. I mean, you've got Dennis Hopper coming off of Easy Rider and then Apocalypse Now. Yeah. I think for people who are listening who maybe don't recognize the name or the gravitas at that time associated with that name, I mean, that's a big deal. It was a very big deal. And he had just come off of filming Apocalypse Now with Marlon Brando, another iconic film name. And Dennis would get the checks from Zoetrope, which was Francis Ford Coppola's film studio, endorse it on the back, then give it to Burroughs' assistant, and he would go out and score drugs and buy alcohol.

Starting point is 00:20:12 The shortest line between two points. That is correct. That's correct. So I saw, wow, Zoetrope, that's Coppola's studio. Oh, there it goes. And when I met Dennis, we really hit it off. And it was kind of a weird way that we hit it off. I've never shared this before, but it's funny. I think you'll get a kick out of it. I said, you know why I'm familiar with you, Dennis? He goes, yeah, man, I know. Boom, boom, boom, easy rider. And I said, actually, it's not easy rider. He said, what? I said, no, I remember all those Warner Brothers TV westerns, and everybody would be wearing Hollywood wardrobe of what a cowboy looked like, but you actually had the 10-gallon hat

Starting point is 00:20:54 and actual authentic cowboy clothes. He goes, man, you're blowing my mind, man. Nobody ever said that, man. You know what I would do, man? I would take my own money and i would go to arizona i go to texas and i would buy authentic actual western clothes man nobody's ever said that to me that was my money man so he loved me after that that i know that was where the fashion background kicked in yeah no kidding so it was really funny so i was granted a part in this movie

Starting point is 00:21:23 acting role an acting. He wanted me to act in it, which I thought would be a blast. Although it became clear that this was never going to get made because these guys were staying at the Chelsea Hotel, which was another awesome destination in New York. And they would get up at about five in the afternoon, have something to eat, then start drinking, doing blow. And by about two in the morning, it had devolved into Dennis and Terry Southern arguing who actually wrote Easy Rider. They'd have the same argument. It was like was like groundhog day the loop would start yes yes it was like an escher drawing you know and uh so they would argue with each other really animated arguments you thought they were going to get into

Starting point is 00:22:15 a fight which they never did it's like fear and loathing in new york city and the funny thing was is that burroughs would sit there and he would click off his hearing aid. Because he didn't want to listen to any of this stuff. So he'd click off his hearing aid, they'd argue, and then they'd fall asleep. And then I'd get there the next day at around five, see the mirror with all the finger scrapings on it from the blow. And I said to Tommy, they're going to squeeze you out of this and this movie's never going to get made. What do you mean? It's my film. And I said, these guys can't get it together to go have dinner. You think that they're actually going to get a movie made? Not going to happen.

Starting point is 00:23:00 Sure enough, about two weeks later, they offered him money to buy his part out. So you were Nostradamus. I was Nostradamus, or just somebody who realized these guys can't get out of their own way. It's not happening. So they offered him four times as much money as they paid for it. And I said, take it. How long have you held the rights? He said, four months. So you've quadrupled your money in four months and this film's never going to get made. Take the money and run. So the reason, Tim, that you've never seen me on the big screen is because the film never got made, but at least he got his money out of it. And how did you go from that into being involved in production? God, it's so convoluted how things happen.

Starting point is 00:23:48 But there was a lawyer who was representing William Burroughs. And he thought I was an interesting guy. We're around the same age. He was young. And he wanted to introduce me to some people. And what I had seen that was really attractive to me is the promise of what it could be to make a film and tell a story like that. That was really exciting to me. So I met these people that were starting a company, a production company, and they asked me to join them. And I did,

Starting point is 00:24:19 and taught myself how to shoot, how to edit, how to light, how to do all that stuff. Two questions. Why did the lawyer do that? Presumably, he's got many things he could spend his time on. So why do you think he offered to make introductions? And then number two, without any previous production experience, why did that production company want to bring you on? They wanted to specialize in fashion.

Starting point is 00:24:46 And so my knowledge of fashion had value to them. And when we first started watching some of the videos they had done together, I was able to distinguish between like when I saw work I really liked, said, who's that cinematographer? And then we'd watch for another hour and then something come up and said, that's the same cinematographer, isn't it? And I said, yeah, how did you know? I could recognize style and recognize how it was done. And so they were interested in my fashion knowledge. That was one thing. And I kind of had, for whatever reason, an innate, and I can tell you the reason actually, an innate understanding of the medium. So earlier I mentioned, I think everything you do informs everything else you do. Well, when I was designing

Starting point is 00:25:30 clothes, it would start with a sketch. I'd have to cost out what were the materials? What was the labor? How long would it take to get made? Could I ship it by a deadline, collect the money for it and start the cycle over again? Well, making a film, you start off with storyboards by a deadline, collect the money for it, and start the cycle over again? Well, making a film, you start off with storyboards, a concept. You figure out the costs of the labor involved, the cost of the materials and rentals involved, and can you complete it by this time and deliver on deadline? I would imagine that there's the process similarity, but that also, whether it's by nature or nurture, I don't know, but your ability to look at fashion and the components of fashion visually in high definition

Starting point is 00:26:15 had to also be reflected in your ability to spot the same cinematographers, right? A certain visual acuity, I would imagine also helped. Yeah. I mean, that helped and that was certainly developed as I was doing the fashion work. That's a part of what I do is, you know, dealing in those visuals. So yeah, you're right. And I think that, you know, jargon is what separates a lot of fields as opposed to, if you look at just the protocol and the practice, most businesses are the same in those very broad strokes. They're very much the same. The vernacular, the terminology is different. That's right. Different dialects

Starting point is 00:26:56 of the same language. That's right. And the lawyer, why did he help you? So the lawyer helped because he was more than a lawyer. He was a deal maker. Yeah, that's a great point. And so he was really interested in bringing me into this mix to show them he knew people. And that's really why he brought me in. He said, yo, this guy's got the fashion knowledge you need. He's working on this film.

Starting point is 00:27:24 He has a sense of what production is. You guys ought to meet. And so that was why, because that was part of his selling point was that he knew people. Yeah. Which I should point out is I think one of the things that separates in some cases, really good lawyers from great lawyers is that they are deal makers and they're very creative about getting deals done. And they recognize that by getting deals done, they ultimately have the most renewable resource of repeat clientele they could ever want. But there are very technically, legally adroit lawyers who are perhaps more interested in billable hours and the kind of micro level tactics but they're not deal makers at heart and they're very different animals

Starting point is 00:28:15 really different so i'm glad you mentioned that i'm going to grab another hard kombucha and be right back i'm going to ask you about success and definitions thereof with your students. Well, I just want to mention one, make a comment about your lawyer thing. And that is, in that definition of good lawyers who can recognize a potential deal and do something, they're also kind of like, if they were a doctor, they would infect you so they could treat you. Because they create more work for themselves by putting those deals together. I mean, I guess there are sort of, not to use like Dungeons and Dragons parlance, but they're like constitutionally, there are sort of, there are the light arts for doing that. And

Starting point is 00:28:57 then there are the dark arts and they're different. They're very different. So let's talk about students. At the beginning of every semester at Parsons, you ask your students to define success, or at least you've done that many times. Why do you do that? And you can answer this in whatever order you'd like. And what have been some of the insights or answers that stick out? Or what are you looking for? Let's just explore why you do that. Because you mentioned when you had to or chose to lay off whatever it was, 110, 120 people in Wisconsin, you were asking yourself, is this failure? Does this mean I'm a failure? What does this mean? And we're meaning making machines as humans. So you asked students to define success. Why? I think it's really important to question some fundamentals that

Starting point is 00:29:48 maybe you never asked yourself. So what does success look like? I think is a really important question. And it doesn't mean by the way that your definition can't change. I mean, my personal definition has changed, but I think it's always important to sort of have your own compass going on and knowing what it is you're after, what it is that you're doing. And so some will say, well, you know, having enough money, and oftentimes money is attached to this, having enough money so that I don't have to worry about anything. And I said, so having enough money so you're not worried about anything, can you be making that much money, however, also hate doing what you're doing every day you're doing it? Would you still consider yourself successful? And so that starts a dialogue.

Starting point is 00:30:37 So I use that as kind of a kindling in the hopes of igniting a dialogue about thinking about what does success really mean. And one of the things that I think is overlooked in so many circumstances is context and looking at that in context and looking about what success is. I mean, the nature of success to me changed when I got married, when I had kids. And then I thought of a separate definition of success when my business was going really well. And that was, I'd consider myself successful when I could say no without any negative financial consequences. So the freedom to say no was a big part of success for me. But now I'm at a different stage of life. And I would say that my definition of success has evolved for me into engagement. I want to be engaged in what I'm doing. I want to be excited about doing it. I want to look forward to it. And I don't care how much money I'd be getting.

Starting point is 00:31:41 If I'm not engaged, if I'm not involved, I don't want to spend my time doing that. What does engagement feel like? How would you know you're engaged? You know you're engaged when you are unaware of the time that passes, that you are so in the zone of the work that you're doing that time doesn't mean anything and you love doing it, and that you look forward to the next time you get to do it. And that can also mean the group of people that you're collaborating with and working with, that you just enjoy that process. And to me, that's what's really important is, you know, knowing and understanding why I want to do this and that it brings me fulfillment. And I think that's really important.

Starting point is 00:32:33 How do you choose who you interview for your class? I mean, you've interviewed some enormous names, Taylor Swift being just one example. How do you choose them? What are the criteria or what are you looking for? What are you hoping to share with your students? How do you go about guest selection? Now, this is interesting because this is also scratching your own itch. Okay. Tell me more. And by the way, Taylor Swift was part of a Victoria's Secret job. She didn't do my class,

Starting point is 00:33:03 just to be clear. Got it. Nonetheless. Taylor Swift was as part of a Victoria's secret job. She didn't do my class just to be clear. Nonetheless, you know, I, I think that I didn't want her legal department. Fair enough. She never did that.

Starting point is 00:33:14 He's misrepresenting. So my criteria for a guest is, is have they demonstrated in some way, whether it's a lecture, I heard their book that I read, an article, whatever, that they've got knowledge that I think is interesting, compelling, can bring about a change in the way people look at things, make people aware of things. So it's really, you know, it's scratching my own itch. I find what they're doing really interesting. And I love the idea of being able to talk to somebody and explore what they do and learn from what they do. Teaching is a fabulous way to learn. Yeah, it really is.

Starting point is 00:33:56 And I love learning. if this footage can even be found anywhere, but thanks to your introductions, you may remember, if people could find this, it would be hilarious. There was a very unusual promo that I did for the Four Hour Chef during one of the Victoria's Secret annual events. And I ended up cooking some dish. And I think it was Alessandra Ambrosio or Ambrosia and then Adriana Lima next to me. And I have never felt like such a hobbit slash bridge troll. The visual was so hilarious because A, they're super tall and obviously stunningly gorgeous. And they're in heels. And there I am like three feet shorter with some kind of Willy Wonka jacket on, trying to make God knows what. It's quite hilarious. So if people can find that, I highly recommend taking a look at it. Finding people who are interesting. I want to shift to

Starting point is 00:34:58 someone who may or may not be interesting. And we're going to move from New York City to the Mojave Desert. Can you please tell the story of the life coach who lived deep in the Mojave Desert? I'm laughing because I love that you picked that. And I don't know the story. I do not know the story. I'm just using the prompt because I want to hear you tell the story uh i may have to reread my book so there was this person that i heard about who supposedly had insights into what makes life meaningful and eternal. And how old were you at the time?

Starting point is 00:35:52 And I was in my late 20s, early 30s. Okay. You know, the seeking ages. And I heard about this person who lived deep in the Mojave Desert. And that for a fee, for a fee, you know, he would share that knowledge. And so it was really hard to get there, by the way. It's not like there were direct flights to this place or anything. And so I make this journey, which involved plane flight, then a train, then walking and, you know, a car. And it

Starting point is 00:36:30 was like quite a thing to get to this isolated place. And I go in and there's this kind of very beatific man, smooth skin, you know, like porcelain and he's sitting, you know, cross-legged on the floor, and he motions me in and asks me to sit down. I sit down, and he said, you were a seeker. I'm thinking, well, yeah, I made it here. So I was seeking something that's not under the umbrella of big insight. And he said, you see this fire? I said, yes.

Starting point is 00:37:14 And he said, first, I want you to close your eyes. And I closed my eyes. And he said, you know, I'm closing my eyes. And he said, you've opened your eyes. And I'm thinking, well, how'd you see that? Your eyes are shut. I was testing you. What's going on here? So he said, close your eyes and I want you to allow your mind to go blank. And I want you to think of nothingness. So I won't tell you where my mind went, but it didn't go to nothingness. And he said, now, I want you to open your hand and place it in front of you. And I opened my

Starting point is 00:37:53 hand to place it in front of me. And he said, your right hand. And I'm thinking again, how did he know his eyes are closed? And he said, put your palm towards the ground and move it in front of you. And that's where the fire was. So I move in front. He says, now, I want you to slowly put your hand into the fire. And I opened my eyes and said, are you fucking crazy? I'm not putting my hand in the fire. And he said, you don't know how many people I have to stop once they start putting their hand down. And I reach out.

Starting point is 00:38:24 We're in the middle of fucking nowhere. If they burn their hand seriously, I'm in the shit and they're feeling miserable. And we're probably 120 miles from any kind of hospital. So thank goodness you had the good sense not to do that. You want a beer? And so he hands me a beer and he's got this diamond encrusted can opener and he said yeah one of my followers sent me this you believe this they spent their money on a fucking diamond beer can opener so he takes a big sip of it and i do and he said to me you came here for the secret right

Starting point is 00:39:02 and i said yes he said, here's the big secret. I said, what's that? He said, there is no secret. If you were to put half of the effort into your own career and what you're doing into what it took you to get here, you would have been far ahead of the game. Everybody comes here thinking that I've got some secret and they're so invested in all the, what it takes to get here that I feel like I have to do something. And I said, what about the eternal life thing? And he said, listen, you live in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of people coming up, wanting a piece of you and all the answers from you. It feels like an eternity. And I said, why do you do it? And he goes, it's a living.

Starting point is 00:39:53 That's amazing. Okay. A few follow-ups. How did you hear about this guy? And what impact did that have, if any, on you? Okay. Here's the big reveal, Tim. You are the man sitting cross-legged and simultaneously across from myself yeah uh the big reveal is that i wanted to end my book with a parable and so i made that story up and i can't tell you how many people said well who is this guy and all of that kind of thing. And what inspired me to write it is that there are so many self-acclaimed people with insight and so many people who were clamoring to share in that insight. So it'll somehow unlock the secrets of riches and long life to them. And I thought, you know what it really takes, and I don't know any exceptions to this rule unless you're born into money, is it takes a fuckload of work.

Starting point is 00:40:52 That's what it takes to do what I've done, what you've done, what everybody I know who has accomplished something has done. So there are no secrets. What there is, is the hard work, the perseverance, and that keeps you going after what you're going for. There aren't any secrets to unlock. You got to do the work. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. It's summer of 2021. And with all the rapid changes we've seen since last year, small business owners are busier than ever. Time spent searching for and interviewing the wrong candidates for job opening could be time better spent growing a business, growing your business. That's why LinkedIn Jobs has made it even easier and faster to reach candidates worth

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Starting point is 00:42:13 Did you know that every week, nearly 40 million job seekers visit LinkedIn? Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash Tim. That's linkedin.com slash Tim to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. I want to talk about a particular type of work. Quote, I was hired to sell shoes, not be a zookeeper. Please elaborate. Those don't go together for you so when i was a kid i was about 16 and a new shopping mall was opening in akron ohio which is where i grew up i'm gonna piggyback the story piggyback the monkey story yeah i feel like Dr. Doolittle right now. There was a manager there and it was a chain of stores.

Starting point is 00:43:09 They had run an ad for somebody who was at least 23, had shoe selling experience and was married. I was 16, unmarried and never sold a shoe. Why let that stop you? Well, that was my thought. Yeah. You know, truly. And so I met with this guy and, you know, I had done door-to-door sales. I'd done all kinds of selling. What did you sell door-to-door? Not to digress. I was a fuller brush man, which maybe many of your listeners don't even know what that is. I don't know what that is. Paintbrushes? No, fuller brush was like kitchen stuff and personal grooming stuff. And went around with a sample case.

Starting point is 00:43:50 You'd start off so they wouldn't slam the door in your face. You'd say, I've got a free gift for you. That was a big thing back then. It's like being a missionary. Yes, and you get a choice of one of three gifts that we've got this week. And then you try to sell them, you know, shampoo or dish soap or whatever. One time a woman opens the door wearing a robe and her

Starting point is 00:44:12 hair is wrapped up in a towel. And I said, in our special this weekend, it may interest you, since you just got out of the shower, is our hairspray. And she said, well, you know, I actually could use the hairspray now can i do you have a sample and i said yeah and so i pick up the aerosol everything was aerosol back then yeah and i handed the aerosol can and she starts to she first brushes her hair then she sprays this and as she's spraying and i see oh man i handed her the oven spray. So I take the can back before she like looks at it and puts it back. And the thing she's going, this was very firm. And I'm thinking, yeah, and food won't stick to your head either.

Starting point is 00:44:59 She actually bought it. She was probably, probably disappointed with the actual hairspray. But I had 30 seconds to engage a potential customer before they closed the door in my face. I mean, nowadays, I don't even think you get anybody to open the door, but back then you could. So it was actually an amazingly good experience for selling. And that also prepped me for retail. When somebody walks into the store, I engage them and get them selling. So I had that conversation with Bob, who was the manager. And he said, look, I can't hire you. You know, you're supposed to be 23, you're 16. You're supposed to be married. You're single. I just love that the number is 23. Yeah. yeah and uh he went on to found 23 and me i'll just kidding so anyhow i said i can't hire you

Starting point is 00:45:51 i'm really sorry i like you but i can't hire you and i said well i sold you and you've got a it's got to be harder to sell you than a pair of shoes. And he laughed and said, I'm sorry. So as I'm walking out, he comes after me and he said, all right, fuck it. You're hired. And he hired me. I said, why are you hiring me? And he said, well, you're right. You sold me. I'm going to take a chance on you. Well, that was really good management because although he had policies, when he saw what he thought would be a good opportunity, and in fact, I was a very successful salesman for them, he was willing to take a chance, take a risk and do something and sort of make the perimeter for the job qualifications a bit more elastic to fit me in. Well, in the back of the store,

Starting point is 00:46:44 there was a monkey. In the back of the store, there was a monkey. In the back of the shoe store. In the back of the shoe store, there was a monkey. Attention, do I have your attention? Interested. Interest, are you interested? Yes. Decision, have you made your decision for Christ? Yeah. Anyway, for those who don't get the reference you can look it up and uh as you had said earlier this is an adult show yeah exactly so the idea behind having a monkey in the back of the store which by the way would never ever happen

Starting point is 00:47:20 these days not up to code no no uh, you know, since it was a family shoe store, the mother would come in and she'd say to the kids, go back and look at the monkey. What could go wrong? By the way, a phrase that I had never heard before or since go back and look at the monkey. And so there was a, when we first opened, there was a name the monkey contest. Okay. And the monkey's name, the winning name was Solo. Now at that time, the man from uncle was the most popular TV show. And the hero's name was Napoleon Solo.

Starting point is 00:48:01 That's why everybody thinks we chose the name solo the truth revealed here for the first time is we named it solo because all the monkey did was masturbate and so of course what would you do sitting yeah that's what i would do and so the mother would then look back to look at her kids, and she'd see the monkey furiously masturbating. She'd say, get away from the cage! Get away from the cage! So somebody had to clean the cage.

Starting point is 00:48:36 Finally getting to your point. And the assistant manager, you know. The masturbating makes that task so much worse. I didn't know that detail. I didn't want to reveal everything over lunch. And so the manager, Jimmy, says to me, the assistant manager, I want you to clean out the monkey cage. And there were five other employees, and I was by far the youngest.

Starting point is 00:49:03 And I said, do you ever clean out the monkey cage? And he said, I told you to clean out the monkey cage. And I said, and by this time, the other employees gathered around because he was very animated when he said that. And I said to him, I'll take my turn if everybody else takes their turn. Otherwise, I was hired to sell shoes, not be a zookeeper.

Starting point is 00:49:28 You must love that. He said, I told you to clean out that cage. And then Bob, the manager who hired me, had heard this and walks over. And he says, Jimmy, why don't you show them how to clean the cage properly? And then you'll take your turn. Jeff will take his, and then everybody else will take theirs. Well, I was okay with that because then everybody was treated equally and fairly, and I wasn't treated differently because I was a kid. And I was often the top selling salesperson. So again, I learned something about management

Starting point is 00:50:02 from that, which is first of all, hear people. Listen and hear people. Don't just assume because the assistant manager said, I'm not doing something. Maybe there's a reason. Maybe there's something to learn from that. Maybe there's something to make the situation better for the employees or whatever. And again, he demonstrated this very common sense, good judgment. And that stayed with me to this point, traumatized by the masturbating monkey, but learning,

Starting point is 00:50:30 learning from his management prowess, which I thought was quite good. Oh my God. Masturbating monkeys. Glenn, Gary, Glenn Ross, Alec Baldwin's performance is my reference from earlier for people who've missed it. Good reference, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. And the last is Action, A-I-D-A, flipped over on the chalkboard. I think he was nominated for an Oscar for that six-minute performance, which is just incredible. Yeah, David Mamet wrote it. Such an incredible writer. I mean, just stunning, stunning stunning writer this is a complete non-sec writer but i have to ask and i know we're jumping around but that's the nature of our conversation the monkey by the way the monkey so from uh monkey masturbation to 2009 so you are

Starting point is 00:51:18 mad off as you uh reminded me very kindly before we started, because I was asking you about Lauren versus Loren. Now there is a Madoff who became quite famous in the wider world. So I don't know if this is accurate. Were you actually quoted in the New York Times as saying, I got a package at my office, which I returned to the post office because it was addressed to Bernard Madoff with no return address? Is that you being quoted or is that somebody else yeah it is so what was that

Starting point is 00:51:50 what was did that year turn into a massive headache for you or was it really just a comical distraction for a short period of time it's interesting it was a few things so first of all my first initial although i go by my middle name jeffrey my first initial is b right for ben and uh not benjamin not benjamin and not big well let me say that let me phrase that differently but anyhow yes it's ben and i would get calls all the time my office would get calls because it was Madoff Productions. The mnemonic, so you can keep it clear in your own mind, is he made off with the money. I'm Madoff. So we got this package and the package was addressed like a kidnap note.

Starting point is 00:52:40 There were letters cut out of a magazine or magazines. That sounds promising. Yeah. And I thought, I doubt if this is anything good. But I didn't know it was even potentially dangerous. Oh, it could be a bomb for sure. And I had gotten so many calls at all hours of the day and night, four in the morning, I would get calls. From people who had lost their money to meet off? Yes. And I had real compassion for these people because in good faith, these people invested and they had lost their money. And so I got some really horrible calls, some people who were crying and begging. And I said, it's not me.

Starting point is 00:53:30 And Bernard has been sentenced. Do you think that you're going to find a number in a phone book? There were still phone books then. I'm not him. And I got a call at five in the morning from Fox and Friends. Oh, my God. It rang. I pick up the phone and they say, you know, I forget the person's name from Fox and Friends. We'd love to have you on today. You know, Bernard Madoff is being sentenced and we'd love to have you on. I said, well, first of all, let me be clear at five in the morning,

Starting point is 00:54:00 you are not my friend. And no, I have no interest on being on your show. And I said, well, we know it's early, but we wanted to get to you today. And I said, you think that I want your audience to see me on the screen? Then you talk about Madoff or Madoff being sentenced with my face on there, and they're going to think it's me i want absolutely no part of this nothing but upside yeah that's right that's right exactly sounds like a wonderful opportunity you know uh and could you put a target on me too uh and you know uh divany anthrax i can borrow why and i was aggressively pursued for the David Letterman show. They wanted me to,

Starting point is 00:54:48 because you had a name that was spelled the same way. Yeah. So they wanted to do top 10 reasons for not having the last name. And so they called me a few times and it happened. My studio was less than a block away from Letterman studio. And so as producers invited me over trying to Letterman's studio. And so his producers invited me over trying to talk me into it. And I said, look, I understand that you guys have to entertain your audience every night, five nights a week. And I'm not interested in making fun or

Starting point is 00:55:19 making light of the pain that so many people have suffered, nor am I interested in being the butt of jokes because my last name is spelled the same way. I said, suffered, nor am I interested in being the butt of jokes because my last name is spelled the same way. So, well, do you know how big our audience is? Do you know how huge an ass you could appear to our national audience? Yes. Yeah. I said, I'm aware, you know, uh, no. And, uh, you know, but what ended up happening? So there was, there was a period of period of time, and obviously to this day, I'm still asked about it, when my mom died. And this was in 2010. I'm in Akron with my wife. We're at the funeral home. And the funeral director is looking at the certificate.

Starting point is 00:56:02 And he says to me, I couldn't help but to notice the last name. I said, what, you usually don't check when you're going to bury somebody? And he said, well, I do see the last name. May I ask, are you related? And I said, yes, it's my mother. So that ended that discussion. But what I did, though, was I wrote an article. I did a callback from the Daily Beast. And I hadn't submitted it. I sent it out to a bunch of friends, and somebody must have submitted it. It was called, I'm Not That Mad Off.

Starting point is 00:56:38 Or I'm Not That Made Off. Right. Correct. And I've never gone into this. This is kind of bringing back memories, not all of them good. And so the Daily Beast said, this is what, we love your article. I said, thank you. We'd like to publish it. Thank you. But we want you to make one change. I said, and what's that? Well, you have a line in there. It's very funny. It's very clever, but you have this line in there that we'd like you to take out. And I said, what's that? And they said, well, you say that wealthy

Starting point is 00:57:10 people often cloak themselves in religious and philanthropic causes to inoculate themselves against criticism. And I said, yeah. So we'd like you to take that out. I said, no. And they said, well, I mean, we'd love to run it, but we would like to take take that out. I said, no. And they said, well, I mean, we'd love to run it, but we'd like to take that out. And I said, how much are you paying me for this? Zero. But I wouldn't take it out anyhow. And I said, no, that's integral to the piece.

Starting point is 00:57:35 Why did they want you to take that out? That's, as far as I'm concerned, it's a statement of fact. It is, I mean, you don't have to look very far to get a lot of confirming evidence. Why did, did they give you a reason? No, other than, you know, they thought that it was very clever and good, but they didn't like that part because it got serious. So I said, no, the next day I got a call from the Huffington Post. Love your article. I said, thank you.

Starting point is 00:58:00 We'd love to run it. I said, as is. They said, oh, we wouldn't change it. Absolutely. And then that led to me writing for them. So I did around 50 some articles because I wanted to get down the discipline of writing regularly. So they didn't impose that on me, but I did an article a week for them for a little better than a year. And so it actually ended up being something good. So I don't know if this is going to be a natural segue or not. Like all of our others, like all of my monkey masturbating to Glenn Ross segues. I'm a natural folks. Just goes to show how far you can get with perseverance and a lot of ignorance. But that's how, you know, since we've known each other, the conversations are like pinball. They're always like this. They're always like this. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:47 Pinball meets racquetball meets LSD. Lloyd Price. Who is Lloyd Price? Well, Lloyd Price is a dear friend who died on May 4th. And Lloyd Price is, and I hate this term because it's beaten to death, but it's true in his case, an icon, one of the founding fathers of rock and roll. He's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And his first song, Laudemus Claudi, back in 1952, broke down the wall that was called Race Records, where you could only buy records by black artists and black record stores and laudy miss claudie sold and was the first record to sell this much over a million copies no record by a young person had ever sold anywhere near that yeah that's crazy i mean it's a crazy yeah and by the way at that time which would have been my grandparents generation kids didn't buy records the only kid records were shirley temple you know kids didn't buy records. The only kid records were

Starting point is 00:59:46 Shirley Temple. Kids did not buy records. It wasn't a market. So there were a bunch of independent labels around the country that sold blues, gospel, and jazz. And this was the breakthrough album. So there are many rock and roll and musical scholars who consider it the cornerstone song of rock and roll and it was covered by elvis by the beatles by bruce springsteen on and on and on and i met lloyd we really hit it off and i was what was that i met him in like 2012 or 13 something like that and i was asked to do a documentary about him because they wanted to start getting his story out there in hopes of doing something. And so I researched him and I met him first, really liked him, and then researched him and did this documentary. And I was so taken by his story because it takes place at the crossroads of the youth movement,

Starting point is 01:00:46 the birth of rock and roll, and the civil rights movement. And I felt like this is a story that needed to be told. Most people don't know Lloyd's story and just how influential he was. And in breaking down that wall that was called race records nobody's prejudice against green you know and so that's very true and he opened the doors not only for black musicians but for young musicians and that started that tidal wave that became rock and roll so he and i became very close friends. And I said to him after doing a documentary, I know I can capture your voice. I want to tell your story. Little did I know that meeting him was going to be a life-changing event. Because since then, I wrote the first few scenes, read them for Lloyd. So let's pause here for a second. So you wrote the first few scenes of what?

Starting point is 01:01:46 Of a play. There we go. Yeah. I wrote the first few scenes. How did you get to a play? Did you already have it in your mind when you said, I can capture your voice? Was it in the form of a play? Yes.

Starting point is 01:01:58 And although movie was in the back of my mind as a next step, but play, there's something about theater and live performances, whether you're seeing a play, whether you're seeing a comedian, even a live concert where the talent is at risk the entire time they're in front of an audience. Because in movies, you can do another take. On a play, you can't. Yeah. I love that. And so that risk I find profound and profoundly seductive because you have to be there, present in the zone to really be good at what you're doing. And I have so much respect for the talent that I work with and the actors that I work with. It's incredible. And comedians, they put a product out there and they get immediate feedback.

Starting point is 01:02:53 You know, it's no A-B testing, right? They laugh or they don't. That's right. There's no charity. If it's not funny, they don't laugh. That's right. Yeah. And you can't talk them into, you know, that was funny. Yeah. That's right. That's the proof. And so you've got to pivot quick and recover quick. And if you get angry at your audience for not pick up on that. I wasn't sure where the thought was going. You wrote the first few scenes of, I'm not sure if it was called this at the time, but Personality, subtitle, Lloyd Price musical, based on his life. And what happened when you wrote the first few scenes? Well, I wrote the first few to tell him the kind of voice I wanted to do the play in. Right. So when I read them out loud to him, he loved it. And I said to him, he said, you got it. And I said to him, but there's something really important that we need to understand right now. And he said, what's that? And I said, you're the messenger. This story is bigger than you because your life and what you did changed the face of music, was instrumental in creating this new form, and you're the messenger. for somebody to say that to me. And they all puff smoke up my ass. And it's not about my ego.

Starting point is 01:04:25 It's about wanting to tell this story. That's why I want you to do it. And that began a friendship and a collaboration that lasted until his death. And now I have an additional mission and purpose, which is to keep his legacy and story and music alive. So many questions. I want to ask you first, how did it feel? What was it like to hear him say that to you? I've been waiting to have somebody say that. It was really gratifying. What I said

Starting point is 01:05:02 could have pissed him off if he was a lesser person, but his ego didn't get in the way of that. And Lloyd had a phrase, the truth needs no defense. That's great. And I love, yeah, I love that. I love that. And yeah, he had another one, which I thought about as I was raising money for this, which is I was telling him about some of the meetings and someone who said, Jeff, you got to understand something. There's a million ways to say no. There's only one way to say yes. You write a check. Right. We'll get back to you. Let us think on it.

Starting point is 01:05:44 And there are people people by the way that just love having meetings and they think it's cool to have a meeting about a play and all of that kind of thing yeah if you want to all you can eat buffet of that just spend a bunch of time in los angeles and get plenty of practice oh fucking meetings and phone calls geez louise so as it stands right now where is this musical so the state of affairs so the state of affairs is back in September of 20 we had a thing we got a theater deal we did a workshop first of all let me say that if I knew how long it took to mount a play I would have started when I was younger and we did a full-up workshop with choreography in the end of March, 2019. We got a theater deal. And that theater deals with People's Light Theater

Starting point is 01:06:34 in Malvern, a very good regional theater. And we're very excited about that. That's in Pennsylvania. Yes. And we were going to open in March of 21. With COVID, I had to make the decision because theaters, by the way, get booked up a year and a half to two years in advance. So in September of 20, I made the decision to see if we could move it, if my management could move it to 2022, which is what we we did i was prescient of you we would have been really screwed if i was wrong yeah fortunately or not fortunately i wish coveted was over yeah but my hope is that by march we'll not only all be safe we will believe that we're safe and that people will be attending theater which is you know beginning to happen bruce

Starting point is 01:07:23 springsteen opened his show on Broadway last weekend. I mean, today's June 30th that we're doing this. It is June 30th. And last Saturday, I'm just putting a timeframe on this. Springsteen was the first Broadway show to open and he sold out. Wow. And three weeks before that, the Colbert show invited full audience without face masks. They just had to pass a

Starting point is 01:07:46 COVID test and show proof of vaccination, and he's been full to capacity every day since. Those are all good omens. So that's really good. Yeah, the roaring 20s. Here we go. So we're now in the process. I am raising some more money because it's like any startup. It's like the tech startups you've been with. You cross a certain threshold, then you got to raise money for with. You know, you cross a certain threshold, then you got to raise money for the next stage. And then you cross that stage and you got to raise money for the next stage. We've got wonderful talent involved. Sheldon Epps, who's the director, is phenomenal, who's been with me since the beginning, as has Shelton Becton, who is the musical director, and Chester Gregory, who plays Lloyd, and Stanley Mathis, who plays Logan, who was

Starting point is 01:08:27 Lloyd's mobster mentor. And many, many awards. Yeah. I mean, just, yeah, we have creative team, David Gallo, who's won multiple Tony awards is doing set and projection and Rob Kaplowitz, who was doing sound design, who's a Tony Award winner. And we just have a tremendous number of people involved who are so good and so committed to the project. That's very gratifying. And you might like this. When I hired Sheldon, which was before we did our first reading, and I really liked him, and I liked his insights into theater

Starting point is 01:09:06 and everything else. And so I said to him, I want you to know I have a no asshole rule. And he laughed and he says, well, I think I know what you mean, but why don't you explain it to me? And I said, if you are an asshole, but you're paying me, I'll put up with it, but I will never put up with abuse. But if you're an asshole and I'm paying you, I won't put up with it. And he laughed and said, we're in the same place. And we have built such a sense of community for each of the productions we've done. And it's been just a joy. And the thing is, and I said this to the assembled cast before we did our workshop,

Starting point is 01:09:50 is, and I think this is a general life lesson for me anyhow, which is never let anybody rob the joy of the process. Because the process is what's magic. The process is what's so much fun. And that's the journey on your way to that finished product, that process. I mean, that's where the real stories come in as you're on that journey. And it's also the bulk of your time.

Starting point is 01:10:17 That's right. That's right. Because once it's up and on its feet, there's a lot less to do. Is it fair to say that, and I know very little about theater, but that the People's Light Theater in Malvern and certainly others sort of around the epicenter of Broadway act as effectively feeders if they're successful into Broadway? Yes. Yeah, it is. And that's from whether it's La Jolla Playhouse in California or whether it's Goodman Theater in Washington. There are many regional theaters of very high order. The public

Starting point is 01:10:54 theater in New York is a regional theater. That's where Hamilton started. La Jolla Playhouse is where Jersey Boys started. No kidding. And those were all like what we have, enhancement deals. But the big caveat is if you're successful. Right. Could you define for people who don't know the term enhancement deal? An enhancement deal basically means that a theater, a good regional theater will set aside a certain amount of money for original productions. Maybe they do one or two or tops three a season. So they have their fixed budget. And then on our end, we have to enhance that budget with the rest of the financial contribution. So they're putting up the set

Starting point is 01:11:34 shop. They're building the sets. They're building the costumes. They're doing the marketing and sales. They're doing all of those things. And if there is any recoupment, they'll be able to get that. So we're not producing it. But what we are doing is marketing from that. That's the idea. But we've enhanced their budget. So we're both able to put on a play that the cost would be prohibitive for either party alone, but together in pooling resources, we're able to do the production. It's very similar, not entirely. It's not a perfect parallel, but very similar to the marquee titles that a publisher will select. They'll handpick a few that they'll kind of double down on in terms of betting their bandwidth and

Starting point is 01:12:17 capital to back. Very, very similar. Did you find, by the way, I'm just curious, after the success of the four-hour workweek, and I think it's fair to say that that launched your career. Sure. I think that's fair to say. Did you get any kind of response from any of the publishers that had originally rejected you that wanted in on your next book or anything like that? You know, I did get a couple of letters from publishers who rejected me, not only rejected me, but did so with no grace whatsoever. I mean, really abrasively rejected me. And I don't think I replied to any of them. I found them amusing. I found them very amusing because you can say no in many different ways. And there were people who said no, but did it taking just an extra

Starting point is 01:13:07 sentence or two to encourage me, even though it wasn't a fit for them. And it was really just an extra sentence or two and a shift in tone, just a few different words. And that made a real world of difference. For instance, there was an agent, she may still be an agent, really, really capable agent named Jillian Maness who did not take me on as a client, but gave me a lot of really good advice and feedback and was very generous and gracious

Starting point is 01:13:38 in how she interacted with me. And a bunch of her advice helped me in my writing of the book, even though I ended up working with an agent who I still work with, Steve Hanselman. And I have the utmost respect for her. And I think she is a better player, a more competent actor in that field because of the way she handled herself. And she had no reason to do it at the time. I shouldn't say no reason, but I felt like it was her default way of existing in the world because I had nothing to offer her at the time. But there were examples like that.

Starting point is 01:14:16 And then there were the counter examples of people who were just like, who the hell are you, kid? This is a dumb idea. Goodbye. And it just struck me as so short-sighted in a way. Even if your job is to say no 99% of the time, which is certainly true for venture capitalists as another example. I mean, a lot of people say no 99% of the time. It strikes me as a very good investment of time to decide in advance how you're going to do that with some degree of grace. So yeah, absolutely. I received letters from some of them and none of them were going to get a bite at the apple before the publisher who took a calculated risk on that first book, for sure. And they got a great deal as they should have, right? I mean, after all,

Starting point is 01:15:03 I'd been punched in the face and kicked in the nuts 30 times or whatever it was. So I didn't exactly have a lot of leverage. But that's smart to be aware of because a lot of people get very resentful about rejection, but they don't look at it in the context of, I have got no backstory here yet. I can't point to my successes in this world. Yeah, totally. And it goes both ways, right?

Starting point is 01:15:31 Like you can be gracious in receiving no. I think that's very important. And these days it's like I get through various channels, hundreds of communications a day and 90 plus percent of those are asking for something. And it's not physically possible for me and my team to even respond to all of those. But if we do, it's usually a no. And it's usually a polite decline. That's how I phrase it with my team. I'm like, please, polite decline. And some people get extremely upset. And they do the equivalent of responding rudely as the

Starting point is 01:16:09 publishers did, but they do it from the perspective of the person who's asking for something. They get very morally outraged and offended. And then they burn the bridge. I say, no, thank you. I can't do this right now. Or there's no bandwidth or I'm heads down on projects and they get really offended. And they guarantee that I'm never going to do something with them in the future by responding in a very overly sensitive, brusque way. Right? So it's, it's definitely a two-way street. Like if you're going to try to do anything in the world, like you, you need to get used to people saying no to you. There a lot more no's than yeses and and you know the question that that i have is you know how does one construct that emotional moat around that part of your psyche that you want to protect and you realize that they don't know, you know, this, what's going on here

Starting point is 01:17:05 has nothing to do with who I actually am. Yeah. You know, I think establishing that mode is critical for emotional survival. Otherwise, more kicks to the head. Totally. And also, you know, I have now on the receiving end developed tremendous empathy and compassion

Starting point is 01:17:24 for people on the receiving end. Because in empathy and compassion for people on the receiving end. Because in the beginning, you know, I might ask someone for a book blurb and they would say no. And I would be very upset. I wouldn't respond rudely. I knew, I think I knew enough not to do that, but it would stick for a while and I would be very upset.

Starting point is 01:17:40 And I'd be like, why would they say no? There's such an easy ask and this and this and this. And I can come up with a laundry list of reasons why they should have said yes. And now that I'm in the receiving seat, like it's physically impossible to respond. I mean, it's like, if I look at my phone right now, it's like, I've got 98 unread text messages from close friends. And then I have another like 253 unread text messages on Google Voice. And it just goes on and on. 834 notifications on calendar. I mean, I can't physically respond to this many things. And it is entirely possible that the vast majority of people or a high percentage of people who say no to you will say no because they just don't have the bandwidth to figure it out. And just because

Starting point is 01:18:27 it's not a fit for them, which you should accept as valid if they say it's not a good fit, doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It just means that your shoes are too fucking tight. It's not going to fit on their feet or whatever. It's not the right fit. And it's going to take a while if you have a novel idea. And if you're unproven in a particular area, it's going to take a while to find Cinderella with that glass slipper. It's just going to take a while. And it doesn't matter if you've had a lot of success in one area. It doesn't automatically copy and paste to the next. In many respects, you're going to have to start over. And I really respect you for doing that, not once but multiple times.

Starting point is 01:19:13 Sort of taking your, not necessarily leave, but departing from a well-trodden path that you know very well, where you have all the connections and you understand all the dynamics to explore an area where you're inevitably going to face more no's. And I hesitate to say rejection because I don't view those as exactly the same. Do you know what I mean? Like rejection. What's that distinction? Well, it's like rejection, I guess, just has such a negative connotation. Whereas no, not right now. No, not for me. Don't quite have the stigma or the stickiness of rejection. Rejection is just such a, for me at least, has such a heavy connotation. So I don't think about it that way. And it's been a strange journey and an interesting one. Let me ask you a question. With respect to fundraising,

Starting point is 01:20:12 without giving out your personal contact information, because I think that would be a terrible, terrible idea. I've seen that backfire before. Where could people go to maybe learn more about the production or consider supporting what you're doing with personality, the Lloyd Price musical? Well, as of yet, because it's too early. I mean, tickets don't even go on sale until September. So if somebody was interested, they could message me on LinkedIn. Okay. That's easy.

Starting point is 01:20:45 Be Jeffrey Madoff. All right. We'll include that in the show notes as well for people. So you can direct message Big Jeffrey Madoff on LinkedIn. And great. I mean, if that works, that's easy. I can just suggest people do it that way. And those who are motivated will figure it out.

Starting point is 01:21:02 Yeah. And if they have just a bag of cash they want to drop off, I can give us the many convenient drop-off locations. Well, let's talk for just a little bit longer. In the process of doing homework, I saw somewhere that you've read everything by Raymond Chandler. I think that's how you said the last name.

Starting point is 01:21:21 Yes. James Elroy, you talk about. Michael Lewis, Charles Dickens. You've clearly read a lot aside from your own book, which just as a reminder is creative careers, subtitle making a living with your ideas. Chaz, I think an average of five stars on Amazon. It's very well reviewed.

Starting point is 01:21:39 What books have you given most as gifts to other people? Well, you preempted the actual answer, which is my own. That's why I preempted. God damn you. There are books that I have suggested to people. That's good enough. And so a book that was really amazing to me, Michael Lewis wrote, well, first of all, I think Moneyball was astounding. Spectacular book. Yes. And I'm trying to get Billy Bean on the podcast. Oh, really? I am.

Starting point is 01:22:16 We'll see. Fingers crossed. Billy, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on. I mean, Michael Lewis is, as a nonfiction writer, is so good. Yeah, mind-boggling. And the way that he's able to make things understandable without dumbing them down, he's just so good. And I've read everything he's written except his latest book.

Starting point is 01:22:38 I haven't read that yet about pandemic, but I will. Moneyball, which was great, which, you know, I read Moneyball and Freakonomics back to back and it was like- That's a good combo. Yeah. It was like a case study, right? But I love The Undoing Project. You know, I know the story of The Undoing Project, but I haven't read the book. It's brilliant. I had read about 15 years ago, I read Heuristics and Biases by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky. Quick side note, I was a test subject of Danny Kahneman's at Princeton, where I was a subject in some of his experiments. Just as a quick side note. Yeah. Anyway, please continue.

Starting point is 01:23:18 Well, you know, they created the field of behavioral economics. Yeah, in Green Hall. I was sitting there in front of a computer looking at things on a screen and hitting space bar or whatever the indication was. Yeah, wild. Never met them. Yeah, they're brilliant. And the thinking about thinking and why we believe what we believe,

Starting point is 01:23:41 I found so amazingly insightful and useful. And I was just blown away by it. I just absolutely loved it. So the Undoing Project went into who they were as people, and it just even enhanced even more what their whole mission was in terms of behavioral economics. So I love that. But Michael Lewis's books, I have behavioral economics. So I love that. But Michael Lewis's books I have recommended tremendously. Same with Timothy Wu. Timothy Wu, I don't know the name. So he wrote The Master Switch. He's a professor at Columbia University. It's incredible about dissemination of media and the attention economy. I may have screwed up that name, but it's Timothy Wu, W-U, and he's brilliant. And I kind of read him like I put together Freakonomics with heuristics and biases.

Starting point is 01:24:34 With Timothy Wu, I put together James Gleick and Information, which is, God, it's an amazing book i love things that make me look at things differently and you know challenge my own beliefs in really interesting ways so those are the kinds of things that i recommend i read mostly non-fiction back when i was reading a lot of fiction, I loved Raymond Chandler. Raymond Chandler created the prototype, Philip Marlowe, the hard-boiled detective who's got integrity and a ball of rye in the deep desk drawer. And his books, I was always sorry that they ended because they were so much fun to spend time with those characters, and I really loved it. Have you ever read Motherless Brooklyn? I saw the film.

Starting point is 01:25:26 I thought that Edward Norton and team did a really nice job with that. They did. And I thought it was really interesting. And of course, the eccentricity of having a detective with Tourette's was just kind of interesting. Yeah. And I'm a sucker for any of these you know movies whether it's la confidential which is one of the best ones incredible with the fedoras you know and

Starting point is 01:25:52 i i just i love that genre you know the film noirish kind of genre i just love it and james elroy who i mentioned who like writes with a blowtorch, you know, it's, uh, please elaborate. He, his use of language has such velocity to it and is so strong. And he wrote LA confidential. That was based on one of his books. Yeah. And the movie, which I loved, was like a Disney version of the book. That's hard to imagine. I know. But if you read the book, which I'd highly recommend. By the same name?

Starting point is 01:26:32 Yes. Yeah, it's wickedly rough, but really good if you like that genre. I love it. I'm looking for more fiction. I've really been drawn to fiction recently, having been a nonfiction purist for decades. But I can't remember who said this, so I don't know the attribution. Somebody can figure this out. But the masks we wear tell us more about the truth than the real faces we own or something like that, right? Like the masks often tell us so much. And so I do feel like fiction can convey deeper truths sometimes as effectively or more effectively

Starting point is 01:27:11 than nonfiction. I've really been drawn to that craft recently. And do you have any favorite documentaries or movies? Oh God, you know, as you know, I love film. So to name a film is really tough. I mean, I recently rewatched for the 19th time, I don't know, To Kill a Mockingbird, which I loved. And I had the additional joy of turning my kids onto it when they were like 12 and watching it with them and there are certain points in that film some intense subject matter yeah but i've got really smart kids and and they they loved it and i loved when i saw tears welling up in their eyes at the same point that it happened with me when I watched the film. And it's just so beautiful. Quick sidebar to that. So I had done a film for Eliza Minnelli

Starting point is 01:28:14 at Radio City, and there was a big party afterwards in the Rainbow Room, which is as glamorous as the movies make it. It's's gorgeous space and it's wonderful. Gregory Peck was sitting there. And I said to my wife, Margaret, it's a weird sentence. I said to my wife, Margaret, as opposed to my wife, Alice, or my other wife. I said to Margaret, my wife, you want to meet Gregory Peck? This is in 1991. And she said, I'd pass out i said come on so we go over and i shake hands with him and said i've always wanted to shake atticus's hand

Starting point is 01:28:54 and atticus finch is the character that he played and he said you know it's interesting that you say that and he has by the way one of the great voices of all time. I was just speaking with Alan Pakula, who produced the movie. And we were wondering if that movie would be made today. What do you think? And I said, I don't know, but what a sorry statement about our culture it would be if a film that was that great wouldn't have been made. And I said, were you aware that you were making something that was going to live on for generations? And he said, you know, I've made over 174 movies. Never before or never since did I have the feeling that I had when I was making that. And the very first scene, he said, you know, we shoot movies out of sequence. And I said,

Starting point is 01:29:43 yeah, I'm aware. And he said, the very first scene is actually the courtroom scene, although it happens later in the movie. And I walk out on set and Harper Lee was there. I don't know that name. Harper Lee wrote it. She wrote To Kill a Mockingbird. And when I walked out onto the set, She got up, burst into tears and left. She came back about an hour and a half later and I walked over to her. You know, he was wearing a three-piece linen suit, which is what her father always wore.

Starting point is 01:30:16 And she said, I'm sorry. I was so overwhelmed by how you reminded me of my father. But there was one thing that was missing. And he said, what was that? Said he always had his pocket watch and a watch fob. And then she hands him her father's pocket watch. Wow. Which he put into his pocket. And she said, whenever he was giving a closing argument, he would rub his thumb over the face of the watch, the pocket watch. And I said, wow. And he said, and when I got the Academy Award for Best Actor for that film,

Starting point is 01:30:56 as I was giving the speech, I had my right hand in my pocket and was rubbing my thumb over the face of the watch. I said, oh, wow. And then he takes his hand out of his pocket and says, would you like to see the watch? And he hands it to me. Wow. And I thought, man, wow. That was to me like somebody seeing the sacred shroud of Turin or something. I mean, it was just amazing, really amazing. But that's a film that not only was the book great, the movie was great. So I have to interrupt for a second because this reminds me of an experience that we had where we were at some party,

Starting point is 01:31:31 I can't remember where it was, LA or something like that. And I was a huge fan of Jason Statham's. I don't know if you remember this. And he walked right past us at this event and ended up, whatever, 100 yards behind us in the middle of this throng of this crowd. And I think I mentioned something along those lines, and you're like, well, should we go meet him? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And you just grabbed me, and we marched right up to him and said hello. And he was extremely friendly.

Starting point is 01:32:04 He was very, very kind and gracious. Also built like a brick shithouse. I mean, God, is that guy well built. And funny enough, I saw that photo about a year ago and I was like, wow, since I've lost my hair, I'm kind of converging on Jason Statham. Have you always had that chutzpah to walk up to people or was that developed or how did that come to be uh god i yeah first of all i just love when gentiles use words like chutzpah after you're telling me that your ancestors came here in like the 16th century or something like that mine didn't they were kicked out of a country but uh you know i like to keep my my doors up you know i i think most people don't mind you approaching them if it's about something nice

Starting point is 01:32:59 so i had a short conversation with him because i said know, my son is a huge fan of your movies. And when I watched them with him, I said, you know, you've got something going on. I mean, you can act. You've got chops. You can really act. And he said, oh, man, thank you. And we talked for just a moment or so. And then I said, would you mind if we got pictures with you?

Starting point is 01:33:20 Yeah. Wow. So the sure way to make sure that nothing happens is do nothing. Yeah. And so the sure way to make sure that nothing happens is do nothing. Yeah. So worst case scenario, he says, get away from me, kid. You know, the worst thing he does is he says no. Yeah. But we both ended up with picture that we really enjoyed and it was nice to meet him because he was a very nice guy. Yeah. Really sweet guy. And so it was cool. And I have seen his, they're married now, I think. His wife, I had shot many times because she was a model. And I did some videos with her. And she was really, really a nice person too.

Starting point is 01:33:57 Yeah. I was supposed to have Jason and I think Guy Ritchie on the podcast some time ago. And then without any explanation, we were all slated to go. And then the phalanx of God knows what in between, very last minute, canceled. So maybe someday I'll get to actually thank him in person for being so cool on our first encounter. Here's a question that might be a dead end. And I accept that possibility and I'll, I'll take the blame if that's where it goes,

Starting point is 01:34:28 but nonetheless, I will ask good preamble though. Thank you. Thank you. I specialize in preambles. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere, metaphorically speaking, right?

Starting point is 01:34:39 This is to get a message, a quote, an image, anything out to billions of people, what might you put on that billboard? Doesn't have to be an original. It could be from somebody else, whatever you want, something non-commercial. Well, if it was an actual billboard, I would say pay attention to the road. That's a very B.ffrey mad off answer and if it was a

Starting point is 01:35:11 metaphorical in terms of just a metaphorical idea that i wanted you know people to get would be stay curious keep learning stay curious keep learning i Stay curious, keep learning. I think you've done an excellent job of that. So you walk the walk. Oh, you're very kind. It's true. It's true. I've seen it over and over again.

Starting point is 01:35:32 That's very inspiring. But it's fun. I mean, when you and I first met all those years ago, the conversation, which was going to be, you had a half hour, I think. And then we were like four and a half hours later yeah i remember as we were ricocheting all over the place like that i mean it's a very enjoyable thing to do when you're talking with somebody who i don't want to presume

Starting point is 01:35:57 you respect me but you know i do respect you but you know the same it's like it's it's fun and you also unearth things about oneself that you might not have hit on otherwise or you see it in a different way and i think that's a great thing about doing a podcast isn't it when you get to talk to people that you find interesting and you know all of that totally in some ways all the more so when I know someone and have the excuse and the pretext to do all this creepy due diligence that would otherwise be really strange. And I think this is a pretty good place to start to wrap up. Jeff, are there any other things you would like to mention? Any requests you have the audience? anything you'd like to say closing comments anything at all that you would like to add before we bring this first conversation to a close well

Starting point is 01:36:51 i am going to be taking in a leap into the podcast world because of all the guests that i've had in my class you know i think that you being a master of that, and I've been learning podcasting. And so I'm looking forward to that because it's just, I think like you, I think it's accurate to say it's about spreading ideas. And that's what's fun, to do that and engaging with people about ideas. I am proud of my book. I think that that was an interesting thing, especially as I was going through some of the same things I was writing about in terms of, that was one of the things when I was thinking about, well, was I a failure and all that? Writing a book about things you've experienced in life can be therapeutic at the same time and bring things up that maybe I wouldn't have thought about otherwise.

Starting point is 01:37:47 And as I had already mentioned about the teaching, is that teaching is such a great way to learn, is such a great platform to engage with ideas. And I've got an audience that changes every semester. I really enjoy it and am very grateful for an opportunity like this where we can just pinball back and forth and talk about the kinds of things that interest us and in scratching our own itches, hope that we also do the same for our audience. Yeah. Well, I'm excited for you to get into the podcast game. You're a natural and you're already doing the heavy lifting and you're doing the interviewing. You know how to do it. You are an expert storyteller and it's just a matter of sharing the audio. So I think you'll do very well. And to just repeat where people can find you, there are a few different options.

Starting point is 01:38:44 acreativecareer.com. That is at acreativecareer on Instagram. The book is Creative Careers, subtitled Making a Living with Your Ideas. Check it out. You can also find Madoff, not Madoff, madoffproductions.com, which can be found at madoffproductions on Instagram. If you are interested in learning more about possibly supporting personality subtitle, the Lloyd Price musical, which I'm very, very excited to see, you can direct message B. Jeffrey Madoff, M-A-D-O-F-F on LinkedIn. Is there anything else, anywhere else that people can find you or any other links or any such things that we should mention? Well, hopefully they'll look that will actually, they will be hearing that podcast.

Starting point is 01:39:30 This is kind of surreal self for another MC Escher thing. I was going to say, you could tell them about this podcast, but the only way that they would hear it, it's like I had a teacher that would say, and if you're not here today, please raise your hand. What? So no, I think it's a no. So people can search your name and podcast. And by the time this is reaching their ears, perhaps they can find it. And also if it is live, I will link to it in the show notes, along with everything we've talked about, all the books, all the people, all of the everything at Tim.blog forward slash podcast as per usual. And what fun, B. Jeffrey Madoff. Thank you so much for making the time and putting

Starting point is 01:40:19 up with this sauna infused with hard kombucha. It's been a lot of fun. I loved it. And thank you very much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. And until next time to everyone out there listening, thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've

Starting point is 01:41:02 discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out and

Starting point is 01:41:32 just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. I've been using ExpressVPN all the time, constantly, since the summer of 2019. And I find it to be a super reliable way to make sure that my data are secure and encrypted without slowing down my internet speed whatsoever. You don't even notice that it's on. It's one of the best VPNs on the market, and it couldn't be easier to set up. Their flow, their signup flow, is actually incredible, and I encourage everyone just to check that out. All you need to do is download the ExpressVPN app on your computer or smartphone, and then use the internet just as you normally would. You click one button in the ExpressVPN app to secure 100% of your network data. One of the many reasons

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #526: B. Jeffrey Madoff — Dealmaking, The Hidden Persuaders, Working with Ralph Lauren, and Finding the Secret to Life in the Mojave Desert

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #526: B. Jeffrey Madoff — Dealmaking, The Hidden Persuaders, Working with Ralph Lauren, and Finding the Secret to Life in the Mojave Desert

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