The Tim Ferriss Show - #564: Performance Psychologist Michael Gervais — Fear{less} with Tim Ferriss

Episode Date: January 14, 2022

Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out the routines, habits, et cetera that you can apply to your own life.You’ll get plenty of that in this special episode, which features my interview with Michael Gervais from my 2017 TV Show Fear{less}. The “less” is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less, not to be fearless.Fear{less} features in-depth, long-form conversations with top performers, focusing on how they’ve overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big.It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free, my dear listeners. You can find the video of this episode on YouTube.com/TimFerriss, and eventually you’ll be able to see all episodes for free at YouTube.com/TimFerriss.Spearheaded by actor/producer and past podcast guest Vince Vaughn, Wild West Productions has produced a string of hit movies including The Internship, Couples Retreat, Four Christmases, and The Break-Up.In 2020, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act, starring Jimmy O. Yang and Cedric The Entertainer. In addition to Fear{less}, their television credits include Undeniable with Joe Buck, ESPN’s 30 for 30 episode about the ’85 Bears, and the Netflix animated show F is for Family.Please enjoy!*This episode is brought to you by “5-Bullet Friday,” my very own email newsletter that every Friday features five bullet points highlighting cool things I’ve found that week, including apps, books, documentaries, gadgets, albums, articles, TV shows, new hacks or tricks, and—of course—all sorts of weird stuff I’ve dug up from around the world.It’s free, it’s always going to be free, and you can subscribe now at tim.blog/friday.*How Michael helped daredevil Felix Baumgartner mentally prepare for his 24-mile fall to earth from the edge of space. [05:06]What does extinguishing phobia look like? [08:07]What was Michael’s childhood like? After moving away from their farm, how did his family help him adjust to life in the big city? [10:48]How Fight Club SoCal led to Surfin’ USA, and what kept Michael’s ambitions in check during this time. [13:48]How Michael began to rein in this anxiety, and who was there to help him. [17:24]Michael describes the week he spent at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, and how it changed his life. [18:37]How Michael became involved in the world of performance psychology, the mentor who guided him, and what his first lessons as a teacher looked like. [21:24]Michael and I share our basic life philosophies. [23:27]What was Michael’s first paid gig with an athlete, and why is the word “potential” often such a powerful performance killer? [26:25]Effective pre-performance routines Michael has seen, and why he discourages the popular deference to superstition so popular among athletes. [27:31]Is the effectiveness of a team dictated simply by a formula of individual multiplied by X number of team members? What ingredients best facilitate a team’s culture toward success? [29:34]Three rules (and one bonus, unwritten rule) that govern the Seattle Seahawks. [30:55]What was it like to lose a Super Bowl? [33:08]What role does mindfulness play in Michael’s world? [36:47]Michael’s advice for someone new to — but curious to explore — mindfulness, and what they can do if it’s just not clicking for them from the get-go. [38:47]To avoid encouraging false confidence leading to overly risky or reckless behavior, how does Michael know when to draw the line? What specific incident really put this sense to the test, and how did he manage it? [43:01]Something Michael believes everyone should do on an everyday basis, and how he puts this into practice. [46:18]What is the first step back from massive failure? [47:29]Would the general advice Michael dispenses differ between high performers and everyday people? [48:57]How much of a role does Stoicism play in Michael’s life? [51:24]What would Michael’s billboard say? [52:28]Parting thoughts. [53:21]*For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers, and it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday, I send out five bullet points, super short, of the coolest things I've found that week, which sometimes includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self-experiments, hacks, tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers, have asked me for something short and action-packed for a very long time. Because

after all, the podcast, the books, they can be quite long. And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week. It's free. It's always going to be free. And you can learn more at Tim.blog forward slash Friday. That's Tim.blog forward slash Friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast. Some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with. And little known fact, I've met probably 25% of them because they first subscribed to Five Bullet Friday. So you'll be in good

company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So check it out, tim.blog forward slash Friday. If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot and you can, of course, easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Optimal minimum. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. and thanks for checking it out. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out the routines,

habits, etc. that you can apply to your own life. You will get plenty of all of that in this special episode, which features an interview from my 2017 TV show, Fearless. The less is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less, not to be fearless. Fearless features in-depth, long-form conversations with top performers, focusing on how they've overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big along the way. It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free, my dear listeners. So thank you, Wild West. You can find the video of this episode, which is gorgeous. I think they did an incredible job on youtube.com slash Tim Ferriss. Remember,

two R's, two S's, youtube.com slash Tim Ferriss. And eventually you'll be able to see all of the episodes for free at youtube.com slash Tim Ferriss. eventually you'll be able to see all of the episodes for free at youtube.com slash tim ferris so you can swing over there and see what is currently up before we get started just a little bit more on wild west spearheaded by actor producer and past podcast guest vince vaughn wild west has produced a string of hit movies including the internship couples retreat for christmases and the In 2020, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act, starring Jimmy O. Yang and Cedric the Entertainer. In addition to Fearless, their television credits include Undeniable with Joe Buck, ESPN's 30 for 30 episode about the 85 bears, and the Netflix animated show F is for Family. Wild West has also produced the documentaries

Give Us This Day, Game Changers, subtitle Dreams of BlizzCon, and Wild West has also produced the documentaries Give Us This Day, Game Changers, subtitle Dreams of BlizzCon, and Wild West Comedy Show. And now, without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation from Fearless. I'm Tim Ferriss, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now TV host. I've spent my entire adult life asking questions, then scouring the globe to find the answers. On this show, I'll share the secrets of pioneers who have faced their own fears. We'll dig into the hard times, big mistakes,

tough decisions, and how they got through it all. The goal isn't to be fearless. The goal is to learn to fear less. Welcome to Fearless. I'm your host, Tim Ferriss. And on this very stage, we'll be deconstructing world-class performers of all different types to uncover the specific tactics they've used to overcome doubt, tackle their hardest decisions, and ultimately succeed on their own terms. So imagine yourself standing 127,000 feet above the earth trying to set the free fall world record,

or stepping onto the field for the Super Bowl, or perhaps attempting to take gold at the Olympics. If you were nervous or if you had to prepare for that, who would you turn to? Who would you ask for help? In less than a decade, my guest has built a very impressive client roster that includes Olympic gold medalists, like Kerry Walsh Jennings, teams like the Seattle Seahawks, and the US Armed Forces. Please welcome to the stage Dr. Michael Gervais. The step has gotten me. You guys ready for a show? All right.

We are going to begin with a video. So let's roll that. 128,000 feet above the ground, Felix Baumgartner stood at the edge of space, preparing to do what none had done before. And then, when the moment was right, he took a step, leaving the capsule behind and beginning his 24-mile fall to Earth. Along the way, Baumgartner reached a speed of 833 miles per hour, becoming the first skydiver to break the sound barrier. After falling four and a half minutes, Baumgartner deployed his chute and floated to the earth in the desert of New Mexico. That was not me. That was not him. That was me. No, that wasn't me either.

Yeah, that was Felix Baumgartner, who jumped out of space from 130,000 feet from the stratosphere on the Red Bull Stratus program. What was that like? Helping him through a fear that would allow him to go to a place that no other human's been. And when he jumped, to jump from 130, 127,000 feet to jump and

possibly go through a double sonic boom, where some of the brightest minds were not sure if his limbs would make it through that sonic boom. What was his primary fear? Well, he could die. Well, kind of, this guy calls himself a professional. What were we doing? What kind of... This guy calls himself a professional? No, no. But, okay. Good answer.

What did the work look like? So he needed to be in a spacesuit for X number of hours, five to six hours. And he became claustrophobic. He could no longer be in the suit. I think at that time it was like 30 minutes. And so he had to rip off the helmet and get out of it. And so they were scrubbing the project.

It was done because if the person can't be in there for 30 minutes, then it's not going to work, period. And then so they asked me to come in and see if I could help him move through that experience. And it is possible to extinguish fear. It is dangerous. And many people don't make it through it. And he wanted it. And he wanted it with all of his faculty about himself. And he really was going to do the work because it mattered more for him to go for it and die than to play it safe and never experience his potential.

And what does extinguishing phobia look like? I knew you'd want to talk more about that. Oh, yeah. So how do you extinguish phobia? There's good science. There's two main kind of ways that, as approaches, systematic desensitization and flooding. And so it is possible to extinguish, you know, a fear response to something that you have. And so how do you do it? There's this, I don't know

how much in the weeds you want to get with this. Yeah. Okay. So flooding as a concept is that if somebody has a fear response to whatever it is that you and that person agree that you're going to put them in that environment and not let them leave until they extinguish the fear, until they have a new hard, a new wiring of the response to the stimulus. Once that flooding of emotion takes place and the circuitry is going haywire and they're not reinforcing the response by exiting, you force them to stay in that environment, hook or crook, that a new pattern emerges. And so that's the essence of it. That's pretty radical.

Now... It's like the Indiana Jones into the pit of snakes approach. Yeah, that's exactly right. Now maybe he's cured. But so what happens for all of us in fear-based responses, so say it's a mouse or whatever it might be, or public speaking or whatever it is, is that mouse comes across the countertop and tension and then exit.

So then thinking over time, and if that happens again, tension and then exit. And then over time, just thinking about a rat or a mouse on a countertop and you would just want to get away. So there's that looping behavior of tension and exit. And so it's possible to recircuit it, but it takes time and flooding, the counterpart to flooding is systematic desensitization. Just like building up a tent. Yeah. Yeah. And you can do it two ways. You can do it in reality and you can do it in imagination. And so there's a set of protocols that you would walk somebody through, backfill them with some strategies on arousal control and thought management. So arousal control is breathing techniques or whatever. And then thought

management is increasing awareness of one's thoughts so you can guide and adjust and play with your thoughts maybe at one point. And so you backfill the mental skills. Those are mental skills for them. And then walk them through an experience where they'll list the triggers of the fear that they're walking into from zero to 100 or zero to 10. And then you systematically put them into those environments, either in imagination or in reality. I did both. But they can't leave stage three until they brought their heart rate down to rewire the fear response. So that's the long, the really long answer to it. So you've worked with some

of the highest profile, most successful athletes on the planet, but it didn't start there. Where did you grow up? My roots are in a small town in called Warrington, Virginia. Were you a happy kid? Would you say? Yeah, I didn't know any better i was like it felt like being out in the in the abundance of nature that i didn't have worries or concerns and i was just a kid trying to sort out how to be a kid and then uh which is a great gift like for parents like that's a really i feel like that was an incredible gift that they gave me so then um dad started working into some corporate worlds and then uh over to California when I was young. It was fourth grade. So I had to figure out how to adjust from the farm to Northern California.

And now I'm straight in the city. I was like, I was a hillbilly. I just was trying to figure out how to fit in, you know, and the fitting in is such a strong human need. And I do remember, though, well enough that I couldn't come home to my parents and talk to them about being picked on. And then finally I came home. And so I said, Dad, a kid after school said he's going to chew me out. I said, what is that? And so choose you out is like, hey, we're going to fight.

Now, a hillbilly doesn't know what that is. So choose you out is like hey we're gonna fight yeah now a hillbilly doesn't know what that is so so choose you out so the next day my dad's my dad my mom and my grandmother were in our living room and they're showing me how to fight as a fantastic and so my dad knew how to fight what was grandma's move great okay so grandma i'm glad you picked up grandma was on point so grandma she says um it was like the last finishing touches she says make sure and check if they have a ring. Okay, not a bad idea. And she says, cover yourself, cover yourself. And I looked at her, I go, what do you mean? She says, well, have one hand to hit them and one hand to protect yourself. Good advice for a lot of things. Okay, grandma. Yeah. So,

yeah. So that was, that was the family environment. How'd the fight go? What happened? Yeah, so here I am. I'm getting ready to go, and, you know, I'm thinking, like, do I go this way? What do I do? And I remember, like, okay, it's going. I looked for the ring. No ring. I'm okay. We're dancing like we're gonna do something,

and I see my mom and my grandmother driving. And they parked right there. And I was like, okay, well, it's not going to be that bad. And then I started to get embarrassed. Like my mom is here. And so I think she started to scuffle and then the car drove off and she kind of saw that it was going to be okay. It wasn't like, we're not going to shank each other or something. And so, and so, yeah, that was my, that was my welcome to California. Wait a a second so did you guys get into get into it oh yeah yeah yeah oh yeah how did it and afterwards what was what was the like

end result so i think when 10 year olds fight like you try to throw some punches this is what i remember i tried to throw some punches he tried to throw some punches we ended up wrestling it went to the ground all the other kids split it up and then i got up and i was like am i cool now and so and uh and it was fine it worked out just fine what got up and I was like, am I cool now? And so, and, and it was fine. It worked out just fine. What was your high school experience like? High school, I jumped down to Southern California, same exact story, same exact story from fourth grade, same exact thing, but the guys are a little bit bigger. Fight Club SoCal. Fight Club SoCal. There it is. And I just didn't know their way. I didn't know their style yet about how to be, you know, in high school.

I didn't even know how to be myself. And so we show up, or I showed up, and I ended up getting in another fight with this kid. Blood was all over the place. And I took off my shirt, and I was like, dude, let's stop. You know, he's bleeding out. Let's stop you know and he's bleeding out let's stop and so I'll never forget that because he and I uh David Hall is his name he and I became great friends you know really great friends he brought me in showed me how like the surfing culture works and I surfed

some of the biggest waves you know with him in high school so it ended up being a really cool transition for me so you mentioned not knowing knowing yourself or not knowing how to be yourself. Oh, yeah. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, so I don't know exactly when people become the person that they're sorting out to become. But there is a transition

that that does happen for people. And for me, i was very late in figuring out who i was and so i was very very busy early on in my life up until this point and further through uh first year of college where i cared so much so much about what other people thought of me i was consumed with it i would so now I'm studying it. It's called cognitive dissonance, where it's almost nearly impossible to be in the present moment because part of you is working on monitoring the way that you look or you might be perceived by another person. And it's a really painful experience to be caught in the consumption of what another person might be thinking.

You mentioned surfing. Was that a small, moderate, big piece of your life? The biggest. How did it fit in? Yeah. So younger years, I had a reaction to being coached. And I didn't like the way it felt for another human to tell me yes or no or give me approval because I was already so sensitive to it. It's like my cup was full. Was that in surfing?

No, not in surfing. That was in traditional stick and ball sports. So I moved away from that because my cup was already full. And to have another adult coach me or critique me in front of peers, it was just too much. And I think that's the case for a lot of kids. Sure. I don't think I was unique in that. I was an anxious, overly aggressive through compensation kid. So I came from an anxious place. Did that ever affect your surfing? Yeah. The anxiousness that I felt while surfing actually kept me from pursuing it competitively. And so the idea, the thing I cared most about, and I had this other part of me that was just crippled by being consumed about what others were thinking, that I couldn't feel my feet. I couldn't feel my body. I couldn't access

what I knew that I was capable of doing. And so any given day in free surfing, it was fine. And I was one of the guys, right? But then as soon as the tent would go up, as soon as the judges showed up, as soon as the friends and family showed up, all of a sudden, my brain was overloaded with what could go wrong. Because that is the essence of what anxiety is, a consumption of what could go wrong. And you couldn't get there because you had this dominating anxiety. Anxiousness. Did you have any inkling of what you wanted to be when you grew up at that point i didn't even know the field of high performance

in sports psychology existed i thought i was going to go to junior college surf as much as i possibly could could because i figured that out in high school and it would just be a nice little two year run you know junior college and then I met two mentors, three mentors, three professors that were best friends, Dr. Cusio, Dr. Perkins, and Dr. Zenka. And they're a theologian, a philosopher, and a psychologist. And they saw me coming, right? They saw this kid that was just bumbling through life. And those three wrapped their arm around me and showed me how to love and be fascinated by the invisible. I love saying their name. Yeah. Describe for us the first meeting with any of those three. I think it was the philosophy class, Dr. Zanka, or Dr. Perkins. And I showed up into his class and I was like, well, who are these people? You know, Aristotle and Plato and Seneca.

And like, who are these people? Like, that's some real stuff. They offered me to take the special class, like this leadership invite only kind of class. And they took, they gave us Tao Te Ching. Yeah. Okay. Which is a fascinating read if you, I'm sure that you spent some time with it. And they gave us The Art of Seeing, these two books. The Art of Seeing. The Art of Seeing. Like the title. I don't know the book. Beautiful book. Yeah. Both of them are about the same

style. Very poetic, very deep. And they had, there was about 15 of us and they said, hey, listen, we're going to go to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. That's what this class is. We're going to teach you how to live on your own for a week. And then the only rule is that you get these two books, a pencil and a pad of paper, and that's it, that you cannot see any other person for that week. Life-changing. Wow. I wish everybody could do that. That sounds like the most amazing class ever. Yeah, really. And so it's just go get lost, literally, and go see what you find. And it was hard. What did you write about? You know, I don't know. I don't know. I wish I could tell you what I wrote, but I experienced something that changed me. Well, what was the experience?

Describe the experience to us. Being scared, figuring out how to face anxiety. And because I'm alone by myself, which is my head and my hands and my feet, and that's it. And this pad of paper and these rich texts, and there was nothing else for me to turn to. It was just, you know, when you face down that stuff, and I mean really face your ghosts, and really face the things that haunt you the most, it changes you. After you came back from that experience, how did your goals or direction change? Yeah, it just felt like, you know, there's this gradual switching on to, like, there was this

thirst and hunger to try to understand how the human experience works. And it's complicated. There's no shortcut to the path of mastery or understanding the complexity and the beauty of the human experience. It's complicated. And so I wrapped up a bachelor's degree in psychology, and I didn't know anything. You don't know anything with that. Master's degree in kinesiology because I want to understand the body a little bit more. I didn't know anything. Ph.D. in psychology with an emphasis in performance.

And across the hall was a Tibetan Buddhist psychology program. So we had this East-Meast-West experience. I still didn't know anything. And I'm not saying I know it now. I'm saying that it's hard to understand the nuances of how the human mind, body, and spirit work. And so that was the beginnings for me of that trajectory. When do you start honing in on or discovering, for that matter, sports psychology or performance psychology? So I had a mentor, Gary de Blasio, who helped shape my understanding of myself during those college years. When I graduated from school, I was like, I don't know what to do now. And he said, well, there's this part-time temporary job. And it became an 18-year run, wildly successful, using sport and psychology

to teach young men in Los Angeles every Saturday night the basic, basic, most basic mechanics of how the mind works. It was phenomenal and it was wonderful. And so what I was doing is I had this working laboratory, the beginnings of a working laboratory of how to take the ivory tower stuff and land it to a group of a hundred or so kids that really didn't want to listen to me, but wanted to play ball. And that was the price they had to pay. And so that was the beginnings of kind of... What would be an example of one of your most successful or best received of those talks? And I don't expect you to remember all the details,

but just to give an example of how you take something that could be very complex and put it into a 15-minute presentation or something like that. What might be a principle that you would talk about? Starting with figuring out who you are is the largest work you can do as a human. But when we start there, it's so kind of big and heavy to begin. So it begins to seem overwhelming. So I would say like in a perfect world where people are like, I want to do whatever it takes to be my very best, to have a deep, meaningful life and to kick kick ass at what I do. Like, I'm going to do the work. Then I begin there.

And we just go on a journey to figure out how can you articulate who you are in one to 20 words. And the litmus test for that is that under duress, imagine that we're met in a dark alley and you and I have done this work. I've heard about your fighting stories. I don't want to be in a dark alley, do you? Yeah, please, come on. I was in fourth grade. I didn't know what to do with my hands.

So imagine we're in a dark alley. We've done the work. What happens for most human beings is that they'll do the intellectual work to say, this is my philosophy. And they'll spend a lot of thoughtful time to shape that in just the right way. But under duress, somebody comes behind you with a knife, right? And they say, hey, listen, I'm gutting people that can't say what they stand for. Most people can't get it out. So it begins with the foundation, who are you? How do you make decisions is what a philosophy is. What would be an example?

Maybe you have one yourself, but it could be hypothetical. An example of the one to 20 word answer. If you think about some of the, if you think globally about the most influential people in the world, their political leaders and spiritual leaders, that's who shapes our global culture. So what is Jesus's philosophy? What is Buddha's philosophy? What would Jesus's be? Love. What would Buddha's be? Loving kindness. All people suffer. Have compassion. So why do we know, what was Martin Luther King Jr.'s philosophy? Dr. King was about equality. We know it because he was clear about what it was. He said it. He walked about it. He talked about it. And when he went in

a room, it was real. And that's what he talked about all and did as a life effort. There's no confusion. So mine is every day is an opportunity for a living masterpiece. And that's the way I orientate my life every day. And I'm training those important words inside of it every day. And so I see this is a gift that you've given me to be able to share the things that I think about a lot. So thank you. This is fun for me. So it's a gift to me as well. I really appreciate it. Do you have a philosophy? I would say the first thing that comes to mind is hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I mean, is that the thing that makes your heart thump a little bit and that's how you make decisions? You push it through that filter?

That's how I make a lot of decisions. Say it again. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. And is there a word? That's more of an operating system rule, like a logical rule that I use for preparation, definitely, but it wouldn't be the thing that drives me.

Yeah. So I think when you get that thing right, that's me. Yeah. So I think when you get that thing right, that's it. And so I'll tell you a quick little litmus test for it is that if there's a word or a part of that sentence where your heart thumps just a little bit, it's like there's a skipping of a beat. We can describe why that takes place. That's when you know you're onto something, when it's like, that's it. I just, God, that's big. I just, God, that's big. I hope I can do that. I don't know if the person across me can understand it,

but it's that type of beautiful work to articulate the thing that is pure about you. And it's a decision-making framework of how you push everything that you do, why you buy your car or your clothes or why you're here. So that's what it's about. What was your first paid gig with an athlete? He was a professional hockey player and he was on the minor leagues and he had all this potential. Now the word potential can be a crippler.

Because you get performance anxiety about the expectations? Yeah. So when we have our little kids, parents, as we have our kids and we say you have great potential, we have to be thoughtful about how we share that word with them because it can create expectations that there's more, which is great. But the idea that you're not reaching your potential is right on the other. Am I reaching my potential? It's right on the other side of it. And so we did some great work. We worked through some stuff. And then he said, I got my shot. I said, oh boy, I hope this thing works. Because at that point, I didn't really know what I was doing.

But I was asking questions and I was present with them. And so he got a shot and he crushed it. And he did great. And so we hugged it out afterwards. It was one of those beautiful moments that you just think about, like the celebration of the strong man or woman, you know, who is nervous and scared, figuring it out. It was wonderful. What are some of the most fascinating pre-performance routines or effective that you've seen? Okay. So as a strategy to find one's ideal competitive mindset, right? There's some good research and science around having a routine to go through, like almost like a checklist to turn on or activate that mindset.

The not great examples are superstitions. That's not what we're talking about. Like if I hop over the line or I do something, if I wear my dirty socks, I'm going to be successful. That's awful, right? It's like that. There's a lot of people that are upset with me because that's part of the entire baseball tradition. It's archaic. It's bad science. It's not good. It creates a fragile mindset. Because what happens if your dirty sock is no longer there? We have problems. So it's not that. What it is, is having, let's say, one, two, or three things, let's make it super simple, that are triggers for you to think a certain way, for you to adjust your body posture that is in alignment with your ideal competitive mindsets, either intense, slanky, smooth, happy, aggressive. There's only a couple of them that people talk about, and then they'll put their own language around it. Okay. And so when I tie my shoes, now I'm going to like first trigger, let's say,

and you want the athlete or performer to create these on their own. When I tie my shoes, what do I say to myself? When I put on my, in my mouth guard, what do I say to myself? When I put my helmet on, what do I say to myself? As I walk through the last threshold, what do I say to myself? What do I do to get me closer to that ideal competitive mindset?

So that's what a pre-performance routine is. And I think early on, it's a really great strategy. And I think it's really cool. And you might not ever leave it, but you're taking particular moments in time to activate great thinking and great body posture. What about individual versus team? Is it just, is team simply individual

multiplied by X number of team members? Or is there a different? No, it's like a one plus two equals something different. You know, and so, yeah, it's not one, one, one, one. It's, there's an ecosystem. There's a culture that is really important that allows people the space or the pressure, if you will, to figure out their potential,

to figure out how to do something really well. And I've learned so much from Coach Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks about culture, about creating a culture that gives people the space to be the very best they can be. So you mentioned Pete Carroll. Let's talk about that for a second. what are some of the rules or ingredients that he's put in place to help with culture? It begins with the relationship. First with himself, and then with the men and women inside of the organization. It's a relationship-based organization. The Seattle Seahawks, what we do is we do football, but like said company produces a product or said company produces a service, we produce football. But we are a relationship-based organization is how we think about it, Coach Carroll and myself and the organization. When I've looked at coaches in any given sport, there very often are certain behaviors or attitudes, actions that they just do not permit.

Is there anything on that list for the CLCA? Yeah. There's three rules in the organization. What are they? You want one of them? Yeah, all three. It's really making me work for it. It's like Willy Wonka. What is it? I'm just kidding.

So be early. Be early. Sorry. Always protect your team. Rule number one. Rule number two, no whining, no complaining, no excuses. Rule number three, be early. Pretty simple. Pretty simple, simple little rules. Always protect your team. Have people's back. It's not about you being great. It's about figuring out who another person is and celebrate them. Always protect each other. Whether you're in the gear or out of the gear,

whether you're in the club or in the living room, take care of each other. And we're going to create an ecosystem that's trying to do that the best we possibly can. It's hard. You'd be surprised. Maybe you wouldn't be. It's hard to do that.

Because people, what happens under duress is they want to take care of themselves or take care of of them and their buddy no protect all of us and so that's a really powerful thought and then underneath like no wanting no complaining no excuses like own it own your stuff now oh it is you and your responsibility to bring the very best to compete to be the very best so own your stuff and he he's great how he plays with those two rules. And the third is be early. And what's underneath be early? It's not be on time. It's be early. Demonstrate that you care about the other people that are part of the system by organizing your life, by having respect that they're going to be here too. Because if people are waiting on you, you're slowing down the whole system. So be early. And so those are the very three basic rules. And I'd say if there's

an unwritten rule, it's the word we talk about a lot, it's love. And I've learned so much from the athletes over the last couple of years through success, public success that we've seen and winning Super Bowls and not winning Super Bowls. And I've learned so much from them about love. And it's been wonderful. I know what you want to ask right now. What do I want to ask? Yeah, you want to ask about what was it like to win the Super Bowl?

What was it like to not win the Super Bowl? I tell you what, what I'm going to focus on first is the loss. Tell me about, tell me about the loss. We've had the highlight reel so far. Let's talk about the loss I yeah, okay the loss What you want to know about the loss There's a lot to talk about yeah, there's a lot there's a lot too, so this is Super Bowl. What is it 49 I?

Want to know The the the lead up to it. So in that game, if you felt, for instance, if you felt like you guys had done the best job possible in preparation, and then the reaction from yourself and the team when you guys lost. Sure. What a wild event the Super Bowl is. It is media and glitz and glam, and the whole thing is just amplified. The NFL does a great job of creating a wonderful event of the Super Bowl.

And Coach Carroll and the coaching staff are relentless, relentless, and very thoughtful on the first day of practice. This is a championship practice. The first preseason game. A lot of people think preseason games are throwaway games. This is a championship opportunity. The third game of the season. This is a championship game. The next practice, every practice,

is a championship opportunity for practice. We get to the Super Bowl, we're prepared. So the first Super Bowl, when you do a post-analysis, the other team, Denver Broncos, the other team, we're talking in media about, this is the biggest game of our life. This is a self-defining, this is it. This is the moment.

It's the biggest game that we're going to ever play in, and we're going to do it. And the Seahawks, this is another championship opportunity. This is what we do. So we really see it as this is the opportunity that we're prepared for. I say there's no such thing as a big game. There's no such thing as a big practice. No such thing as a big play. There's just this moment. Coach Carroll says every game is big. Every practice huge every play is important and so let's maximize it now

in this moment we get to the same exact place and so it's a relentless training to be as present as you possibly can and never let that influence this that it comes from within and that's dictating your your experience and environment rather than being dictated to. And so I need to share that with you because the win, that's idyllic and it happens all the time. It's theoretical and it's applied. The win, it's easy to win. The loss and the way that the loss was experienced in the second Super Bowl was dramatic. Coach Carroll did two amazing things that I think are the demonstration of a philosophy at work. So right after that happened, he's on the sidelines. I didn't see this, but I saw the tape afterwards. He's on the sidelines and he just, he watches the play happen. He's in it. And then the play unfolded where the ball was intercepted

and he dropped his head. It's about two second beat and then his head comes back up. And when his head comes back up, the thought, I hope he's okay with me sharing it because it's beautiful. The thought that he had was, I got to be there for my guys. Oh, just, that's what it is. When you care so much, you don't get overwhelmed by your pain. You feel it. But then

I got to be there for my men. I'm not a football guy. I know very little about it. I can enjoy watching it. I enjoy Super Bowl parties. I enjoy highlight reels. I can recognize a hit that I wouldn't want to take. But the Seahawks actually came onto my radar about, I want to say a year ago when I read a Sports Illustrated piece about a book on stoicism, The Obstacle is the Way, that it sort of somehow found its way into the ranks of the NFL, including the Seahawks. And I read this with great interest. You mentioned Seneca. I'm a huge fan of Seneca, Marcus Aurelius. It's one of the philosophical schools I pay a lot of attention to. And when you think of not overreacting to factors outside of your control or emotionally overreacting to situations, it seems that you have to have developed a certain degree of awareness.

So what I wanted to ask you, because this has sort of come up indirectly a few times, is mindfulness. What role does that play in your world? So a center, you know, it's a centerpiece for sure. Mindfulness, the ability to be here now, a particular way of focusing on what's happening within and outside of oneself at any given moment. Like, without it, I'm not sure how we can become everything that we want to become. I'm not sure how we explore the depth of the human experience without being aware. And so mindfulness is, yeah, it is a center pillar. It's a day in and day out practice. And as often as I can talk about it, I love to. And so, you know, it was, I think it was 19, 2000, 2001, when I first began to

understand what it was really about from a mentor that shared it with me. And it's just a invisible process of becoming more aware. And for those people who are wondering, like I did for a very long time. I went out and in a very, not haphazard fashion, but scattershot fashion, bought every book I could find on meditation, mindfulness. And I came out of it and I was like, I am more confused now than I was when I started. And do you have any recommendations for people who would like to develop that type of awareness, how they can either start practicing or resources or guidelines or anything that you could suggest? There are more and more available resources for people that want to go read about it or watch a video about it.

But that's not how it works. So the thought is to do it, is to sit or stand or lay down or wherever is comfortable for you in a particular moment and pay attention to one breath at a time and start over and over and over and over again. And so it's the practice of it that is the work. And so I don't think you need to read

about it. I would say start first and mechanically just begin with paying attention to your breathing. And then when your mind wanders, which it will, like the natural state of mind is like a drunk monkey and it wanders. And I don't know if yours is double-fisted, maybe. I don't know what kind of show is this? So drunk monkeys will get wild, right? Certainly. So like all of us, we're burdened and amused by the drunk monkey. And so having a relationship with it and bringing it back, come on back to right now. That's the work. And so you don't practice it. You don't get good at it. Are there any... Can I finish one thought? Yeah.

I want to make sure we don't stop there, because the real purpose of mindfulness work is insight and wisdom. And so without awareness, I'm not sure how to help myself or another person reveal the wisdom and insight within. So that's the real essence of it. Like it's a deep process. And if we only stopped with awareness, we'd be butchering an ancient tradition that modern science is finding to be incredible for change and growth. So I want to make sure that both of those bookends are included. No, for sure. I mean, it seems to me as someone who's only meditated consistently, and I'm not saying it's the same as mindfulness, there are different ways to go about it, but for the last, I want to say two to three years, pretty recent as a percentage of my lifetime, it seems like the awareness is putting on the prescriptive glasses that brings

things into clarity, but then you also have to look at the right things. If you're just like reading People Magazine all day, every day, no offense, People Magazine, I still love you, but you also have to focus that clarity on the right areas. Personally... And then I would add to listen as well. A big part of it, especially in modern times, it's hard to listen, you know, because there's so much external stimulation and stuff coming in from all over the globe, you know, and we have it in the palm of our hands. So spending that time to integrate, literally integrate our senses, you know, from what's happening within and what's happening in the environment and just listen.

And the journey home there is daunting. Do you have any suggestions for people who have kind of wobbled trying this in the past? So you can do a coach. You can do a digital coach, which is what an app is. You could read about it. Sure. And you can also sit and pay attention to one breath at a time. And so there's lots of ways to begin. The beginning, the process of mindfulness is beginning a thousand times, you know, and over and over again. It's the process of starting over. So if you just kind of, it's hard. It really is hard to sell this. I think the people, I don't, I think it's impossible to sell it because not until you understand it and feel it and not until you're around people that are so grounded and so aware and so switched on

and are able to adjust eloquently to whatever environment do you go, I want some of that. What is that? So that is, I think, building a community of people that are switched on in that way. You just want it. And, you know. We have such an an engaged incredible audience this evening let's go to some audience questions all right uh this first question is from robert mcbride robert when do you know or how do you know when to draw the line these are dangerous activities in some cases that can and often do result in injury or death i think think about that question a lot. And that's the thing that keeps me up. It really keeps me up at night. And so here's my thoughts around it is, I remember the first time I presented at a conference about some work I was doing in the fight game. There was a group of psychologists in the back and they were saying, how are you doing

this? And they were pissed. Like, how are you helping other people damage each other? And so that's when it really hit me that they are grown adults that have a real thing that they want to do that is very meaningful to them. And I just might be able to help them unlock some ways of thinking and being that will create safety for them when they're in harm's way. What was an opportunity or a situation as you are becoming better known that made you, whether it's nervous or just put you on the spot in an emotional sense? Well, I'll tell you the one that I was... Luke Akins, who jumped out of an airplane at 25,000 feet, first person to do so without a parachute, into a net that he designed and rigged

with a team of engineers. The consequences, it's a binary outcome. He lives or he dies. And you've got to be all in. You have to love deeply because you don't know the next time you'll see him. You have to care deeply and be fully present, and you've got to get some stuff right.

You really have to get some stuff right because if I'm arming him with the wrong strategy or approach on how to be fully present, that could be really dangerous for him, and I feel privileged. I feel privileged to be that intimate with people that are that skilled and that open to growth and that have said publicly sometimes said, I want to learn

more. I don't have all the answers and I need it to be successful. Who better for me, who better than to learn from people that are chipping in and pushing the frontier? And for me, when the consequences are real, I'm way more interested because there's so much more to learn, I think. Well, not only real, but clear, right? I mean, you can measure the outcome. For sure. And that's what I was most attracted to, were those environments where consequences were on the line. And many consequences in sport are like money or fame, you know, future contracts or twisted ankles or reputation, you know, something along those lines for most stick and ball sports. The off-access sports where people are in the rugged back countries doing things that have never been done before, you know, those 0.0005% of people, like the fractional frontier explorers, are such rare people.

We need them. We need to understand them because they're doing the things that you and I are not doing or maybe even capable of doing. So they teach us about the frontier when they come back and live. This question is from Jeffrey N. Where are you, Jeffrey N? All right. And here's the question.

What is something everyone should do on an everyday basis? That's it. Love, deeply. Good advice. Is there any practice that you have in your life for ensuring that that is the case? Yeah, it's practicing openness, practicing vulnerability, if you will, practicing saying the difficult things that are difficult to say. And so love is an action. It requires doing loving things. And one of the most important things we can do is be present with people.

That's a loving act. You know, we're doing it right now. It's like a lady and the tramp moment. You see that? Like, I'm missing the spaghetti, though. So that's the practice. Like, can you be present with another person? Then can you say the difficult things?

It's hard to look away right now. And then can you be there when they want to do the same thing? A question from Michael Charles. I suppose this is how this is said from Facebook. What is the first step from coming back from massive failure? Massive failure. I guess we'd have to operationalize what massive failure is. So I don't really think about it in those terms. Let's say the players after the Super Bowl

lost. So what do you do after? What is the process? That's right. The value of front-loading a philosophy, I can't say enough about it because it becomes something, it becomes a compass. And so this pain that one is feeling is measured against the compass. It's measured against the tent pole. So front loading is a really important process. If you don't have that in place, it's really hard. So they already have the coping software pre-installed. And it still took a long time.

So I'd say if we think about massive failure, again, the way I think about failure is just playing it safe and small and not going for it when you know you have more to give, is to feel the pain. That's the first, right? Like feel that pain. Don't try to lock it out. No, don't try to push it away. Feel it. The only reason, I don't have any science around this other than my experiences, the only reason people change is because of pain. So the worst thing, a worst thing a friend could do or a psychologist could do or a coach could do is take away pain. Because pain is the impetus to be able to say,

I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore. This question is from Zach D. Zach D, where are you? All right. Question is, you have a lot of advice for top performers in high-stakes scenarios. What would your advice be to the everyday person working a nine-to-five job? It's same stuff. First-order business is a good question. I tend not to think about advice giving

very much or at all because I don't know the path that people have walked. And so I need to learn a lot. And in those questions, in that relationship building, so much is learned from both people. So there's a lot revealed in just the beginnings of that. So if I kind of put that into a way that you could maybe or we could operationalize that is like be in relationships where people really genuinely care. Like find those relationships where they really genuinely care. Like find those relationships where they really want to see you do well. And so you'll have conversations and stimulating questions and responses that get to the center of stuff. So that would be the first thing I would suggest. The second is from the craft standpoint of the skills that I've come to learn from science

and people in the rugged environments is being present is very, very important. It's like almost mission critical. And so figuring out a way for you or us to be more present in our lives is foundational. And mindfulness would be one of the great practices. Another way for enhancing the ability to be present is conversation. So there's three ways that I like to think about the process of awareness and insight is great conversations, writing, and then mindfulness, which is listening. And then the third would be know who you are and let it rip, like flat out, let it rip. Nine to five. What does that mean? It's like, you've got a, you've got a life that you're living and it's now and there's nowhere other

than now. So know who you are and never let, refuse to let somebody or an environment dictate your experience in life. And when you do have those moments... And I say that, Tim, because I lived it for so long and it's so painful. It's so painful to be consumed with what others think. So I would say that those are the three. And then so how do you do that? Get after it every day. Get after it and put yourself in these really uncomfortable, emotionally uncomfortable situations where you can feel so that you can adjust. This next question is from Connor McCloskey. Where's Connor? Where's Connor? uncomfortable situations where you can feel so that you can adjust. This next question is from Connor McCloskey. Where's Connor?

Where's Connor? Connor's right there. You mentioned studying Seneca in college, or at least reading Seneca. How much of a role does stoicism play in your life? Good question. Stoicism as an idea, like the center of it, and I'd love some brushing up on it from you, is like control what you can. Like just pay attention to getting that stuff right. So if you think about mastery, and this is the thing that I'm most interested in as a craft, right? Like what is the process of mastery and what is it in particular? I'll tell you what,

it keeps coming up over and over again, whether it's Seneca or some of the ancient traditions and the wise men that are doing the thing today. They are relentlessly talking about, listen, I don't have time for all that other noise. It's about, I want to have great thoughts, great actions, great effort, great attitude. I want to control the stuff that's in my control. All that other stuff, I'm working to gate it out. And so...

Thank you. all that other stuff, I'm working to gate it out. And so... So if you had the opportunity to put a few words, short message on a gigantic billboard, in other words, just get it out to the world, what would you put on the billboard? It's going to sound too campy. I mean, I want to say something really clever and smart or whatever that, you know, could, I don't know, but it, it, I'd be pretty fricking simple. You know, it would be love, you know, just fricking do that.

Great. You know? And so, and then I'd say like, if there was something, something like with a sharper edge to it, you know, not that love is soft. It's really hard to do. But if there was something with a sharper edge, I'd say that billboard would read, make a decision, build capacity, and test yourself. You know, I think it would be those three things, like, and test yourself. Yep. And if you could make one request of everybody watching this, just like a next step, a suggestion, whatever it might be, an ask of the audience, what would it be?

Each one of us are on a unique journey. And that journey is not determined by what you do, but rather who you are. So the journey is a journey of self-discovery. And it would be wonderful if people would embrace, more people would embrace a true authentic journey of self-discovery. And then with that discovery, to be able to share those insights and gifts with others. And so that kind of relationship-based amplification of authenticity would be like phenomenal if more people could go down that path. And then I'd add a layer on top of it would say, you know, get in really rugged and hostile

environments and feel what it feels like to be on the razor's edge and be overwhelmed by it and then come to love that razor's edge. And then the last would be learn how to be here now. You know, like learn how to work with your own mind to be in the present moment and increase the frequency of being able to do that across many different environments. And I think if we could get some sort of those three things right, like test yourself, go on your authentic journey and be here now, like we'd be on to some cool stuff. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Michael Trupe. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off.

And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered

or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try

it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday, type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.