The Tim Ferriss Show - #622: A Rare In-Person Random Show with Kevin Rose — VR Workouts, I Bonds, Excellent Movies, Recent Books, Lessons from Amy Tan, How to Shape Your Mind, and More

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Starting point is 00:04:28 free trial and get full access to Shopify's entire suite of features. Start selling on Shopify today. Go to shopify.com slash Tim right now and check it out. They have a lot to offer. Shopify.com slash Tim. At this altitude, I can ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss Show. Kevin Rose. He's a technologist, serial entrepreneur, world-class investor, self-experimenter, and all-around wild and crazy guy. You can find him at Kevin Rose on Twitter. I'll keep it short at that. Please enjoy. Cheers, Kevin. Cheers. Good to see you. Clink, clink. So where are we and what are we drinking? Are you supposed to say welcome to the show and shit? You're already hammered? I'm not already hammered. I just feel like in my current state of mind and affairs of skipping the preamble, skipping all the foreplay.

Starting point is 00:05:54 Going straight in. You know, if my audience has been with me for 700 of these, I'm like, you know, you guys are probably pretty limbered up by now. Limbered? Limbered up. Love it. Yeah. Welcome to the Tim Ferriss Show, everybody.

Starting point is 00:06:08 This is a special edition, random show. Been a few months at least. I know. It's good to see you. We're actually next to each other. I know. If you're watching the video, we are sitting next to each other on my floor, which is crazy. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:06:22 This is old school. I like it. Yeah. In front of a recording couch does my audio sound weird to you listen to this it sounds weird to you test one two three hello hello how's it going does that sound weird watch say talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk you sound good right doesn't sound weird you don't you doesn't sound weird. You don't sound weird. Actually, yeah, when I get close, you're pretty close.

Starting point is 00:06:49 If I talk right now, I'm getting a huge gain blowback on my voice, but not yours. Oh, interesting. Maybe it's just a headphone thing. Yeah. Sorry, people. We're going to leave all that in.

Starting point is 00:07:02 Exactly. That's actually pretty funny. People will be like, what the fuck are these guys doing? All right. I'm investing in tequila, folks, not in editing. I'm just kidding. Half. So we are actually in my new apartment in Los Angeles.

Starting point is 00:07:22 We're sitting on the floor in front of a little table here. Yeah, I'm in LA now. I moved. Why did you move to LA? You know, a lot of things going on. Because since COVID, everybody from LA has moved to Austin. Is that true? I mean, a lot of people have moved.

Starting point is 00:07:36 I know a lot of people moved to Austin. You know, it was one of those things where I was in Portland, Oregon for a few years. Loved it. Beautiful, beautiful place. Rains a lot, not a lot of friends. And so it was hard because we're in the middle of nowhere. And it's actually just kind of depressing, like rain and no friends with COVID combined. Now, when you moved there, I have to say, I was like, who does Kevin know in that area?

Starting point is 00:07:58 Yeah. I knew a couple of people and one of them moved and I had a couple of other friends and then one of them had a baby and you know with COVID and everything you like you don't get a new baby and all that stuff so right it was tough but my family was out there my mom's out there you know my sister's still out there and just decided hey let's get away from them honestly with all the NFT stuff going on and the majority of my calls were either LA or New York that I was having work-wise. And so why not get down to where everything is happening? And so the choice, we weren't going to go to New York because it's just wintertime New York.

Starting point is 00:08:34 You've already done New York also. And I have two kids. And it's like New York's harder with kids. Yeah, so LA. Why is New York harder with kids? I mean, when the snow is like three feet deep. I see. I got it.

Starting point is 00:08:43 The winters. The winters. Andters and you know there's also traffic like i remember when i was out in new york and i was watching i'm just laughing because i just spent three hours in traffic driving from san diego to los angeles there's a difference terrible there's a difference between like la stop and go freeway traffic and like you're watching these kids and i saw this happen where they make them all hold hands when they're crossing the street, of course.

Starting point is 00:09:08 And then like a taxi comes flying around, you know, at a million miles an hour and almost like wipes out. I just kind of freak out. Yeah. When we have the dad hat on

Starting point is 00:09:17 with the kids, I'm like, I don't want to have to worry about that stuff. Right. Got it. And so this is, and I know there's more

Starting point is 00:09:23 neighborhood-y stuff and there's areas of New York where we definitely could have made it work, but I don't know. West coast. I'm still, my mom, you know, she's up there. She's in her eighties. She's undergoing cancer treatments. I want to be on this coast. I can bounce up in a second if I need to. So, you know, made sense. That makes sense. Yeah. All right. So sitting on the floor with a beverage in hand. What are you drinking? That's a great question because this is something of yours. I am keeping it simple

Starting point is 00:09:50 and having some tequila, missing a little bit of Texas perhaps. Dos Artes 100% Agave Blanco. I wanted something that would maybe be less likely to donkey punch me in the head hangover wise and so i chose this as much for the blanco as for the bottle itself i mean the actual ceramic container is gorgeous this is one of our our favorite tequilas i gotta say a big thank you to anish who introduced me to this tequila bought me a bottle of this as a birthday gift or something. It just blew my mind. So really good. Not crazy expensive,

Starting point is 00:10:29 like middle of the road kind of world, but just awesome tequila. Yeah, I have no idea. Just for the bottle alone, I'm imagining this costs a fair amount to make. Just true for a lot of the premium alcohols. Like you're paying 20% of the price or 30% of the price for the glass

Starting point is 00:10:44 or the crystal or whatever you're actually not keeping most likely. So what are you drinking? I am having a little bit of champagne just because my wife bought a bottle and we opened it. I am drinking a really douchey champagne. It's not douchey, but it's like, can I just say that on your podcast? You can say whatever you want. Okay. So it's, this is the funny thing. Daria came back from the champagne store,

Starting point is 00:11:09 which grocery store. She was like, I saved $300. And I'm like, cool, what'd you get? We don't ever drink this champagne, but there was apparently a sale on something called Ace of Spades, which is Jay-Z's champagne. It's actually quite good.

Starting point is 00:11:23 It's actually quite good. Well, i was just laughing because as soon as you mentioned that before we were recording and i was like and you also have a red wine with snoop dogg's face on it that's your sink i'm like what is it tupac you know grass-fed butter what's that what's coming so they're not too far away from us is um a grocery store that basically has Snoop Dogg's wine. And it's kind of like a table wine. And Daria needs it for cooking.

Starting point is 00:11:50 So she bought Snoop Dogg's. It was like a $10 bottle of wine. I don't judge the cost of Snoop Dogg's table wine. I just thought there was going to be more to that pattern. That's it, basically. And how is it? It's quite good. Very dry. Fantastic. Cheers. Good to see you, man. Yeah, it's been a long time it? It's quite good. Very dry.

Starting point is 00:12:05 Fantastic. Cheers. Good to see you, man. It's been a long time since we've done one of these in person. I know. It reminds me of the old school episodes that we used to do back in the day. We used to do these all the time in San Francisco. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:14 And even with the glass background, it makes me think of one of your places in San Francisco. Totally. Where all those people showed up angry. No, the protesters. The protesters. Yeah. That place, that particular place. Have you been protested yet?

Starting point is 00:12:28 I have not been protested yet. That's interesting. Yeah, well, I think that's going to happen, actually, with your secret thing you're working on. Oh, God. I'm not sure people's imaginations are going to go wild with what horrible thing I'm concocting. But I have not been protested. I'll take the counterpoint.

Starting point is 00:12:47 And this is, I don't want to give him credit because I don't know if he would want it. But a friend of mine who has this theory, and I tend to agree with it, that people are going to be 10% less famous every year if they're already a public figure. If they're not in rapid ascension, if they're not in rapid ascension if they're not exploding and even if they are if we go over a longer time frame like it's one thing to be popular on tiktok for a month you're on tiktok right i'm not it's quite a different thing to be popular for like 10 years on 20 years yeah and i just think that is going to become harder and harder to do because there'll be more of a pool of people that'll be. Oh yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:25 Yeah. I mean, the internet is just, I mean, just the young kids coming up on you. Yeah. And I'm okay with it. I'm tired.

Starting point is 00:13:31 Are you done? I think I'm like that NHL player where they're like, oh wow. Yeah. No, God, given how many injuries he's had, he's doing pretty well out there limping along on the ice.

Starting point is 00:13:40 Yeah. But let me, let me ask you. God bless him. He's giving it a good college try. I don't want to be that guy. Have another superior tequila. Cause I have a serious question to ask you here tell me that was a really intense sip on the microphone it's like that's why i don't wear a headset i don't have to worry about it was very intense okay so um

Starting point is 00:13:59 you don't want to go for rogan you want to to take him out. Like you could, you could, you could go for it. No, he's one. Is he one? Oh, for sure. He's one. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:10 No, it doesn't even enter my mind. Honestly, does not even, you have to have like a live studio and shit. Cause, cause a lot of it has to do with that. Like live.

Starting point is 00:14:18 I mean, he's a, he's a television professional. I mean, he's very good. Interviewer. He's very good commentator. He's very comfortable in front of a camera and is an excellent storyteller yes he's got to be five to ten times bigger than his runner-up in terms of

Starting point is 00:14:36 size for interview format podcast you gotta be up there with him there I mean I'm up there but you have to understand that there's rogan and then there's like if it were the tour de france there'd be like one guy 10 miles ahead yeah and then there'd be a pack of he's like the guy on roids then there'd be four no i don't mean he's on roids i mean like in terms of his is like how far ahead he is i think yes i mean it's as if you then have a cohort of folks, there are like four or five maybe, who are like spread out over 200 yards. And so there is maybe a popularity sequence to it, but they're 10 miles behind the person in first place. So I don't think about competing at all in that sense.

Starting point is 00:15:21 The other thing though, too, is I feel like like his content he's really good at getting the spicy shit on right like he'll have the spicy guest on he knows how to push the buttons and i feel like you have you have like fantastic intellectual conversations but i don't know that you push the the agenda of like normal celebrity for the sake of like stirring up the pot a bit you you know? Yeah. No, I don't, I don't have the endurance for it. And he really enjoys so many different formats. He,

Starting point is 00:15:50 he is Joe Rogan, meaning Joe Rogan is the best version of Joe Rogan. And I think anyone who looks at what Joe does and says, I'm going to do that and I'm going to do that better. And I'm going to be bigger is foolish. I think that's a terrible idea. Yeah, no shit. And Joe has tremendous endurance, I think, in part because he has chosen formats and ways of communicating and ways of presenting visually that it seems he really enjoys. Yeah. So if somebody tries to force fit themselves into that game,

Starting point is 00:16:27 Oh yeah. They're going to lose. Yeah. You both had Zuckerberg on the show. Yep. You maybe three months before him, four months, something like that behind the scenes,

Starting point is 00:16:36 how much prepping do they give you of like, don't ask Mark this. Like what's that like? They meaning his team were extremely easy to deal with for me. Did they say like, this question is off, off limits. Like don't ask Mark.

Starting point is 00:16:53 No, they didn't. I gave them as I give every guest final cut. So there wasn't a lot of talk about prohibited topics or anything like that. And did you go easy on him? I wouldn't say I went easy. There's something that people should know, if they don't already, about the show and deliberate decisions that I make so that I enjoy the format

Starting point is 00:17:17 in the same way that I think Joe does it with his format. And anyone who has, I think think tremendous in podcast years longevity which would be at least five or ten finds the format that they're best at it's just like different shaped athletes in different sports yeah and in the case of my podcast i made the decision really early on i don't want to have a gotcha show. There are many other people who are going to do that better than I will because they enjoy it. I don't. For example, as much as I respect Mike Wallace, I don't need to be Mike Wallace. Mike Wallace already won the Mike Wallace game. If you have not heard that name, you should actually look him up because

Starting point is 00:18:00 he was a very skilled interviewer. there's a documentary about him that is fantastic and has chilling footage of him and the entire story behind interviewing the ayatollah khomeini in any case it's not hardball it's not any of these formats and in part that this is gonna sound so cheesy and hallmark card but i hated going into interviews myself. Because you've been interviewed a ton. I've been interviewed hundreds or thousands of times at this point. And when you go in and someone just cuts an angle and is out to get some type of headline that they're going to cherry pick from a longer statement you make and twist it out of context. I just didn't want anything to do with that. I wanted my show to be the show, not because

Starting point is 00:18:51 it's easy necessarily, but because it's well-researched and thoughtful and not out to be aggressive for the sake of being aggressive. For all of those reasons and more, there were certain topics that I didn't bring up. when that is a clear and present high priority area of focus within meta Facebook itself, he's not going to have any maneuvering ability. Do you know what I mean? He's going to feel, as he should, compelled to give whatever response they have jointly determined to be the right response. And so for me to throw that out, it's a waste of everyone's time and oxygen.

Starting point is 00:19:46 Because number one, we're not going to get, and I wouldn't expect, nor would I even recommend that he give something new. And my podcast isn't live, again, for many reasons. But I think I know which trees are worth barking up and which are not. I think I'm very good at picking those shots. And if people want, let's just say, a politically oriented show or a controversy-focused show or true crime or something, there are tens of thousands of podcasts, brand new ones that come out every week. You can find something you enjoy. For me, I wanted a lot of that interview to stay with Mark, which I was quite happy with, will remain evergreen for a very long time. So talking about how he structures his life,

Starting point is 00:20:29 thinks about priorities, how he integrates, say, belief systems, like religion, into his family. I mean, these are all questions that may not be the topic of the week, but that nonetheless, I think, will preserve value, maybe even appreciate in value over time

Starting point is 00:20:46 as more and more people chase whatever happens to be trending that instant on TikTok or whatever the platform is. Remember Vine? I mean, risky business betting on one platform. When I interviewed Elon probably 10 years or so ago, I did the same type of approach where it was very like, let's get into who you are as a person

Starting point is 00:21:06 versus the topic of the day. And if you go back and watch that interview today, there's still some great evergreen pieces of content that are like lessons from just his childhood growing up, like lessons that he learned along the way, the idea of taking things back to first principles, like all that stuff was pretty new when he talked about it back then.

Starting point is 00:21:26 Yeah. I'm still really proud of that interview that it still gets a lot of views and people should turn the ads off on that shit. I don't have ads on that. Give me a little cash on the side. That's, you know, I was going to say, Kevin, you know, I saw you, the holes in your socks.

Starting point is 00:21:40 Yeah, just to see, you know. Shit's breaking down. All the hand-me-downs that you're wearing. That's right. Times are tough in the Rose household. So tough. What do you think I should do with the podcast? Honestly? Yeah. Because I love you. I want you to move to Los Angeles and have a live show. Cause I think a live show would be, here's the question. Like, I guess what I was trying to hint at with the Joe Rogan piece is that I believe when I watch Zuck on his show and I watch a lot of people, Aaron Rodgers and a few people that I've watched recently, the reason why he can get them to

Starting point is 00:22:15 share intimate details is because of that. I mean, Aaron Rodgers is sitting there smoking a cigar on a set, right? And they're just kind of chilling out, like having fun. It's the Elon moment with the weed cigarette, you know, all that shit. But like that magic can't happen remote, you know? Yeah, it's a lot harder. It's a lot harder. So I don't know. If you're going to go for it, like I'd love for you to move to LA, dude, but that's just me personally. I wanted to have you more in my orbit and hanging out more often, you know? Yeah. You know, I thought about doing a limited edition live series i was actually looking at it right before covet hit well you did that series that the other television show fearless yeah and i enjoyed that and i would do it again and there

Starting point is 00:22:57 is a magic a connection also an audio visual component if you want to show photographs or video that is very hard, if not impossible, to replicate live. I also just like having, I think having an audience is a lot of fun. Well, think about what Oprah did, right? It's like being an athlete and having to compete. It's going from training to competing. Yeah. And since I don't do

Starting point is 00:23:20 live very often, I get a cheap thrill out of it. Yeah. But what were you saying about Oprah? I was just saying that she was able to break down. I mean, a lot of the intimate stuff that came out was because they were sitting across from each other. Right. You felt like you were just with her during that moment.

Starting point is 00:23:34 Why don't you do six months out of the year out here? A little studio, a little series. It could be cool. Maybe one month. No, but it was okay. That tax shit.

Starting point is 00:23:45 Can I just say, I think it's so funny to talk to all the people moving to Austin, or I shouldn't say all the people. I don't talk to all the people. When I talk to people, and you're in some mixed company, and there are all these tax refugees from California, and you're like, so guys, yeah, how'd you decide on Austin? They're like, oh man, well, the barbecue and flowers. And you know, I really like armadillos. And oh, I just thought, well, I really need to invest in a customized AI-driven, tech-enabled cowboy boot business.

Starting point is 00:24:16 That's what I thought. And I asked myself, where's the best such business? Oh, it's in Austin. So blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they dance around the taxes. They won't say it. They won't the taxes. They won't say it. They won't say it. They won't say it.

Starting point is 00:24:27 So one of my stupid kind of old Muppet, like up in the balcony, like, you're not funny, like yelling at the other kinder Muppets, is I'll see like how long I can push. Until they say it's for the taxes. Yeah, yeah. I'll see just how many contortionist Cirque du Soleil acts.

Starting point is 00:24:48 You can watch them kind of sweat. Yeah, yeah. They're going to go through before they're finally like, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, whatever. Like my company was going public six months later and I just thought it'd be a good idea. I at least know a dozen people that have moved to Texas

Starting point is 00:25:01 just for the taxes. Oh, for sure. I moved in 2017. And I wanted to move there for the taxes. Oh, for sure. I moved in 2017 and I wanted to move there right after college. But the fact of the matter is I moved to Austin because I wanted to leave a scene also. I mean, there are tons of reasons, but I remember you were in SF, right? Yeah. And I was kind of getting burnt out. I was done for a couple of years before I left. Then I got there and then COVID happened. And what I thought was going to take like five to eight years happened in 18 months.

Starting point is 00:25:27 And now Austin is a scene. And it's like, fuck. Well, because I remember one time I talked to you and I don't know if you want to keep this in or not, but like there's one time where you're like, you moved to Austin kind of hoping to kind of like get away from that shit. Yeah. And then you're going to coffee shops people are too like recognizing you and just being like you're like fuck i just wanted to come yeah you know and it's uh like you're hearing tech conversations over coffee it's the tech stuff yeah because if somebody listens to

Starting point is 00:25:56 the podcast and they say hi honestly there are days when i need it like it feels good but i'll paint a picture if i'm this this like actually happened to me something very similar to this if however i like spot a guy in a man bun who has more tattoos than like a brazilian mma fighter who's been to prison and has like an ayahuasca t-shirt on and is wearing like a bitcoin bracelet and comes over to me he's like yo bro yeah well i used to listen to your stuff but i'm more of a lex friedman fan like what is this lex friedman who's actually a great podcaster but somebody says this to me and i'm like what is this interaction about like this is such a bizarre interaction that like archetype which is at the nexus of a bunch of circles including

Starting point is 00:26:43 something called conspirituality whoever came came up with that, high five, one of the best words ever. But this like conspirituality that seems to have taken as its HQ, Austin. You started this shit. Drives me cuckoo bananas. I did not start the conspirituality. No, but you were one of the first people I heard

Starting point is 00:27:01 talking about ayahuasca and shit. Well, yeah, that's true. And then as soon as something is popular enough that people are doing it because it's popular then i'm like i want to just exit stage left yeah i saw this piece in the new york post about socialites using ayahuasca to do god knows what and it's just the same status bullshit the cars the good the goodies that you show to your friends like all the status stuff that drives me completely nuts and look i'm sure i play some of those games myself because we're human and we all play some of those games i i don't know that you do like i know you pretty

Starting point is 00:27:37 well i've never seen you drive a crazy car no you always have shitty cars. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's true. It's true. And yeah, I don't, in that way, I don't play any of those games or I try not to. And your houses have always been very reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. They're modest.

Starting point is 00:27:53 You know, you have a private jet, but that's, yeah, you know, aside from my fleet of golf, golf, golf streams,

Starting point is 00:28:01 very reasonable. So as soon as, especially with the psychedelic stuff god it makes me like so sad on some level that the fucking monkeys can't help but like soil their own home over and over again it's just like oh guys come on like this one thing can we not turn this into like a kicking it with the kardashians keeping up with whoever the hell is your next door neighbor and because like my instead of this sort of sideways glance making sure that someone has noticed your hot new like bugatti now it's like oh oh well you had a good shaman experience let me tell you about my shaman and it's like oh it's the same jerking off it's the same stupid game and um i've still never done the uh the actual

Starting point is 00:29:02 ayahuasca i gotta do that one time with you. I'd love to. Yeah, we can talk about it. We can talk about it. I mean, I... I know you'd give me the authentic shit. I don't want that bullshit. I want to go... If I'm going to do it, let's go in.

Starting point is 00:29:14 I'm just going to be like, hold on. Let me hop on Craigslist, find somebody good. Give me a second. Casual encounters? Does that make sense? I don't know how they're advertising these days. I will say, just as a quick note, with ayahuasca specifically, I talk so many more people out of using, well, this is broadly speaking, out of using psychedelics than I have ever talked into

Starting point is 00:29:36 using psychedelics. I think that's something that a lot of folks listening may not realize that I mostly disqualify or discourage people from doing ayahuasca or any psychedelic. It just depends a lot on the specifics for me because these things are so strong and they can be incredibly destabilizing. Yeah, I've been there. And after I did that high dose mushrooms mushrooms very amazing experience and definitely therapy like a shit ton like they tell you all compressed in this little thing but for two or three days after i was just kind of like oh the motions were all over the place you know it's like it's not just smooth sailing from the second you get done you know the chemicals are gonna rebalance and shit yeah and you're increasing plasticity so if take, like you just imagine that you have like this huge, let's just say, maybe not huge, like volleyball-sized ball of Play-Doh, and you have to heat it to be able to shape it.

Starting point is 00:30:39 And that's your brain. And then you heat it. And depending on all the inputs and stimuli, positive and negative, that enter your life or that you allow to enter your life over the subsequent handful of days or even weeks will shape how that dries. And it's not automatically for the better. So long way of saying definitely do your homework. This stuff has become so popular and I'm excited about the therapeutic potential. I'm excited about the potential for examining in ways that have been effectively impossible before for a lot of technological reasons, we will begin to ask and answer questions about the mind and consciousness itself that we have not even been able to scratch the surface of even 20 years ago.

Starting point is 00:31:31 I think psychiatry is going to fundamentally change in a lot of really core ways, right? I mean, fundamental core, kind of redundant, but you get the idea that some of the tectonic plates under which psychiatry rests currently are going to shift very dramatically and i'm excited about that yeah speaking of which you kind of we haven't even hit any of our topics that we're talking about today well let me ask you before we move on yeah like it was going to be in line with that but yeah yeah we'll get there we'll get there now that you gave me one quarter of a drink yeah i'm on i love it i'm on a roll i may or may not have had some other chocolates oh that's right before's right. I did not have that.

Starting point is 00:32:06 But in any case, ayahuasca chocolate. Well, no, God, that would be the most, that'd be like cat shit sandwich. It's like the flavor that comes to mind.

Starting point is 00:32:16 All right. Why would you want to do say ayahuasca? What would the whole be potentially? Well, I mean, for me, I have had a few experiences on psychedelics that every drug that you take is a little bit different, right? Like you have a different door open. Like high dose weed is going to feel very different than high dose mushrooms because it feels very different than microdosed acid, which I'm just talking about the things

Starting point is 00:32:43 that I've tried. So I imagine there's another door to open there. Poofing ketamine, different door. Ketamine, very different. I've done ketamine before in a therapeutic setting, and it was actually the most pleasant, like chill thing I've ever done. Like it's just like chill, you know?

Starting point is 00:33:00 Watch out for the long-term brain damage if you guys ever do it. We'll get into that in another episode. Yeah, so for me, I'm trying to figure out, and this is onto my first point about my my seven-day retreat that i'm going to do that was a good head fake did you answer my question no no no what i'm saying is that i i want to i want to open as many doors as possible during this lifetime why not you know okay all right hey it's not to say i'm going to go in and stick to one door and be down that path for the next six months, but why not just try it? We're going to be dead in 40 years. It's true. Despite all the people skipping lunch and dinner in hopes of eking out an extra three years. So you were going to segue, opening doors.

Starting point is 00:33:40 Yeah. And? Yeah. So the problem, Tim, I have with a lot of these compounds is that I feel like they're very prescriptive and I worry that you get these changes. Don't get me wrong. And granted, I don't have near as much, I don't have as much data as you do on this front. But for me, I felt this like nice relief for like a month, you know, and then it kind of creeps back in to the normal steady state of the things right and so the plasticity i wonder is it like something that you have to do multiple times and like how many times and then then on the on the worst case of this you hear about these people that they just don't ever come back and they're the lifelong journeyers that are they these you know psychonauts that and you're like are you killing more brain cells are you really reworking the plastic there you're just just kind of like, you know? Yeah, or you took that Play-Doh

Starting point is 00:34:28 and just like, just threw it down a sand dune. Exactly. So for me, I've been, you know, we've mentioned this many times on the show, is like, I love the meditation side of things. I think of it as a kind of a, trying to reach the same peak, but in a more kind of steady state,

Starting point is 00:34:42 like everyday micro-dose way, that eventually over a decade or longer of practice, you'll eventually get to some amazing state of consciousness. I'm obviously not there yet, but I'm doing my first seven-day silent retreat at Mountain Cloud Zen Center, which I'm very excited to do. That's Henry's Place? Henry's Place. Yeah. Henry Schuchman. Yeah. Nice. Fantastic teacher. So why do this retreat?

Starting point is 00:35:06 What are you hoping to gain from it? Well, if you read a lot of the Zen books that are out there, a lot of the, whether it be the three pillars of Zen or Zen, the authentic gate, a lot of the big unlocks that happen with meditation are not just through 50 minutes a day, which Zen is typically 25 minutes of seated meditation, five minutes a day, which then is typically 25 minutes of seated meditation, five minutes of walking, and then another 25 minutes of seated. It actually happens at these sessions, these proper retreats, where you're doing days meditating and you really go deep. It allows your mind to really calm. And you've done this. You've been there. So I just want to go. I want to see what's there. In this spirit of unlocking these other doors and trying new things,

Starting point is 00:35:47 hell yeah, let's go. Let's go. You know? LFG. Zen. All right. Are you concerned at all? Do you have any worries?

Starting point is 00:36:00 How are your knees going to be? You're going to be sitting a lot. I'm going to be bringing my seated. I use a kind of Japanese style seated bench for meditation versus the folded legs. Kind of like a Sibian. It's got a little adapter on it. Exactly. So I'm going to go and do

Starting point is 00:36:16 that. Tachi magic wand. Keeps the hips loose. Yeah, exactly. I don't even know what you're saying, but that's great. I'm used to sitting for for an hour day like that so that's that's not a i don't know but you're gonna be going from i know hour to how many hours i'm fine like like it's gonna be like eight or once you so much you lose feeling in your legs you're fine i'm fine i i'm really like i'm all back to your room yeah i'm

Starting point is 00:36:39 all in i i just want to do this for you very excited yeah i do like henry henry's amazing for those that you don't know just a plug for do like Henry. Henry's amazing. For those of you who don't know, just a plug for Henry through via Sam. Henry has a lot of his courses on the waking up app from Sam Harris. So you can, you can check his stuff out there. Fantastic Zen teacher. Just a good human,

Starting point is 00:36:56 you know? Yeah. Yeah. Great guy. Very well spoken. You have him on the podcast twice. He's been on twice. So for people who want to taste test of Dr.

Starting point is 00:37:03 Shookman, your second interview with him around the coins was just brilliant, dude. It was so good. It was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Because that was part of the intention for the first episode, as you know. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:12 And then we got hooked on all these other topics and didn't come back to it. And I was like, all right, we need to go around. They're so cool. Yeah. I love it. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. There's a lot happening in the US and global economies right now. You see it every day in the news. Are we in a recession? Is it a bear market?

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Starting point is 00:38:14 million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. So why wait? Earn 2% on your cash today. Visit wealthfront.com slash Tim to get started. That's wealthfront.com slash Tim. This was a paid endorsement by Wealthfront. So anything you've enjoyed watching recently? Yes. I was going to get into some of the, I figured we could do,

Starting point is 00:38:41 because it's been a while since we've hung out, and I'm sure with COVID and everything everything else we've hit some good movies yeah i was going to give you like my my favorite search terms five bullet movie list because i know you love five bullets i actually have five bullets right here oh yeah you do bullets all right you love those bullets uh i do how about my five bullet movie list and you tell me yes or no whether you like these whether you've seen them oh great yeah and then you do the same for me you got five i don't i do not have five i've won all right but good job but it has six episodes so technically technically i think i have six and you have five okay so six full friday all right so the new top gun fucking great fantastic can you believe that

Starting point is 00:39:22 he did all that flying himself i It's unbelievable. I mean, the fact that he is still doing so many of his own stunts is incredible. It's insane. It makes you want to pick up Scientology. You know, you're in the right place. Exactly. The real reason that Kevin moved to LA.

Starting point is 00:39:40 That is not the case. I thought Maverick was fantastic. Saw it in IMAX. I hadn't seen anything on IMAX in a long time. And I was like, all right, look, if we're going to do it, let's actually do it. I really went into it being like, oh, Jesus, I hope they don't ruin this. You know, like another Top Gun. Is this going to be cheesy?

Starting point is 00:39:55 And I walked away being like, damn, that was good. It was really good. It was fantastic. And there have been also a lot of filmmakers who have enjoyed it. Not that that's my indicator. I just thought it'd be fun to go see old school, all the tropes. Yeah. Like use all the cliches because they work.

Starting point is 00:40:13 Oh, the music? Yeah, absolutely. So good. You know exactly what you're signing up for. And having something that reliable and uplifting is really reassuring in a world of increasingly chaotic uncertainty. It's like, yeah, you know, when you go to see fucking Maverick, it's not going to end with like an orphan kid dying. You know that that's not the ending. All right. So the next, next movie, uh, the price of everything. Have you seen that? The price of everything. Is this an art doc? Yes.

Starting point is 00:40:45 Yes. I saw it a long time. Yeah, I saw it quite a few years ago. Yeah, I really, really enjoyed it. Okay, cool. You've seen it much more recently, though. Yeah, I mean, it basically just gives you, if you're ever curious, kind of behind the scenes of the contemporary art world,

Starting point is 00:40:59 what goes on at auction, how these artists make their art, they actually, which is crazy, they actually hire people to do the art for them. Some of them do, yeah. Some of them do. It's just a crazy behind the scenes view of the art world. And for someone that's into NFTs, it was just like, I learned a lot. So it is a wild romp through contemporary art. And if you're in the camp of, let's just say advocate, right? You really enjoy contemporary art. You'll get a lot out of it.

Starting point is 00:41:26 And also, if you think that much of contemporary art is complete horseshit, you will also get a lot out of it because neither camp is going to be disappointed. Yeah. Hey, Love, can I have a little sippers of something you find? Thank you. Not a beer, just like any wine or anything.

Starting point is 00:41:43 So the prize for the next one, Elvis. The new Elvis film. Oh, look at that. There we go. Bam. Look at that bling. So the new Elvis film. So here's the deal.

Starting point is 00:41:54 I don't care about Elvis. Who cares about Elvis, right? Like, I didn't think. No, seriously. I was like, Elvis, old people, blah, blah, blah. You watch Elvis, this new movie. Why did you go to it? Tony Conrad actually told me it was fantastic. All right.

Starting point is 00:42:05 And so I put it on and I was blown away because Elvis was a misfit. Like he grew up in a black neighborhood. That's how he got a lot of that kind of soul vibe that came through in his music. And then also he was like thrown in jail because of the way he moved his hips and shit. Like these were the times back then.

Starting point is 00:42:26 Right. And so like he got on stage and like, just like make his finger move and stuff to like, like get the crowd going and shit. Cause he couldn't move his hips. Otherwise he'd be thrown in jail. It's a brilliant story. Then it shows how he got hooked on drugs.

Starting point is 00:42:37 And whenever I thought of Elvis, I thought of this like Vegas singer, overweight, passed away. Oh, I don't know much but i learned a lot and a he reminds me of just any other icon i can see why he's so massive i it was like a history lesson in a movie so highly recommend it yeah i'll check it out you should it looked like this

Starting point is 00:42:57 cinematography was beautiful just based on the preview fantastic yeah i was not expecting to love an elvis movie that is not me, right? But I walked away being like, he was a badass. A lot cooler than I thought. I'll check it out. Yeah. Next one, Everything Everywhere All at Once. Yes. So good. It was great. I'll give you a bit of trivia, maybe if you have not heard this already. I was watching it and Michelle Yeoh's husband from within 30 seconds i was like i know that guy goonies

Starting point is 00:43:27 yes exactly i was like data from the goonies within like 30 seconds i'm just so glad that that guy got working still around yeah i mean he could have ended up in a million different places and the fact that he's i'm sure he's maybe been in maybe many other films, but to end up in this as such a, I don't want to say sleeper hit, but like unexpected, I would imagine mega hit. So I made Daria watch it and she was just like, what the hell am I watching? It's a weird ass film. It's a super bizarre movie. If you like really weird shit and you're just like, your jam is kind of like funky indie odd like you walk away being like what the hell did i just watch but it's brilliant it's brilliant at the end of the day

Starting point is 00:44:11 oh yeah i really the jumping for the dildo scene was just remember that when they're trying to race oh yes yeah i do yes the fight scene yeah in the middle of a fight exactly yeah it's ridiculous yeah there's a lot there's a. Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot to it. It's a strange movie. So my last one on list of ones that I've watched recently, that was for here's number five airplane, the original airplane.

Starting point is 00:44:33 Have you watched that recently? No. And it would never get made today, which is probably part of what makes it funny. It's cringe, like bad, like really sexist. And there's a whole,

Starting point is 00:44:44 a whole lot of jokes in there that you look at and you're like how the hell do they make this but it's also like there's so many iconic moments and and bits that when you watch it i heard you spitting in the back of the bus there it's just it's fantastic to watch again airplane yeah oldie all right all right what's your number What's your one movie that you have to recommend? I'll share an oldie. It's not as old as Airplane, but if people have not seen, I recently rewatched it, Spirited Away,

Starting point is 00:45:13 by Studio Ghibli, which at the time was headed up by Miyazaki Hayao. My favorite movie of all time. Really? Why? I watch it and I'm like, this is good, you know? It just has all the ingredients.

Starting point is 00:45:29 I think I also watched it when I was 15 or 16. It might have been a few years later, but the coming of age and hero's journey of Chihiro, who then gets renamed Sen, and there's a whole story and sequence behind that.

Starting point is 00:45:47 The fact that she goes from so weak to so self-confident and strong, the way that is woven in to a fantasy backdrop, including so many of my favorite things. There's Japanese bathhouse,

Starting point is 00:46:04 a bunch of weird gods, you know, a bunch of creepy like ghost type phantasms. Yeah. Like Kawanashi or No Face is one of the characters. And I thought the animation and the backgrounds and everything, when you consider particularly that they're hand painted, was spectacular and is spectacular. So I've rewatched that.

Starting point is 00:46:24 I'm also very interested now in world building. I'm doing a bunch of fiction writing right now. Tell us more about that. Yeah, we'll get into that. Are you going to talk about that today or no? No, I'll save it. I'll save it. But I will say, I'm bouncing around a little bit.

Starting point is 00:46:38 So Spirited Away and then recently read a classic. I think it was published in 1968 initially called The Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin. And it's incredible. It's such a beautifully crafted book. The language is really not flowery, but poetic, sometimes in a very simplistic way. That is to say, even very basic sentences, she'll make beautiful. And without the Wizard of Earthsea, Harry Potter doesn't exist, or at least wizarding schools, as we've come to think about them. There are so many components of fantasy worlds that we take for granted now that would not have existed were it for The Wizard of

Starting point is 00:47:26 Versity. And then prior to that, I also listened to, I know I'm jumping around a bit, The Fellowship of the Ring for the first time. So I had not read Lord of the Rings. I had not read any J.R.R. Tolkien. And when you consume those

Starting point is 00:47:42 two books, especially Tolkien's stuff, you realize how many of the archetypes that we just assume have been around forever because they're so ubiquitous came out of this guy's head. One question there. Did you see the new Amazon series? The new Amazon series? The new Lord of the Rings. I can't remember the name of it.

Starting point is 00:48:01 I've seen the trailer pop up because they're promoting the hell out of it. Oh, they spent a billion dollars on the series. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I haven't watched it. Jesus went nuts. I haven't watched it, but I will. Cool. And as far as my other item,

Starting point is 00:48:13 my one item, I'll mention it. I mentioned it to Daria earlier because I think it's so spectacular. It's a limited series or a six-part, I want to say, animated series, although it combines 3D and 2D animation in a really innovative, spectacular way, is Arcane,

Starting point is 00:48:34 which you heard me mention earlier as well. And Arcane is based on a game I have never played, but many people do, League of Legends, or it's based on some characters from this game. And Riot Games, and there's a separate behind-the-scenes series, which is the making of Arcane, called Bridging the Rift, which I'm also watching. And they just threw everything at this. And the animation studio in France, Fortiche, that helped to create the, not just the visual components, there's a lot to it.

Starting point is 00:49:09 And the musical composition behind it is on Netflix. Oh, cool. And every frame of this series could be a beautiful, large NFT or a piece of artwork that you would put on a wall. I love that. I mean, it is staggeringly detailed and gorgeous so i i'm just recommending to everybody and they spent nine figures on it i don't know if it was 100 million 200 or more but the fact that they were willing to dedicate after a lot of testing it wasn't haphazard but willing to dedicate that type of resources to a six-part animated series.

Starting point is 00:49:47 Oh, man. Awesome. It's really gorgeous. And it also shows a contemporary example of world building. Even though there is world building in League of Legends, because I've learned more about the game even though I haven't played it, when you're creating six hours of content on a handful of characters,

Starting point is 00:50:07 you have to flesh them out and create narrative arcs that intertwine in a way that you just don't necessarily have to in a video game. So highest recommendation. Can I pick your brain a little bit here or just maybe get you to divulge a little bit here? You've mentioned now a couple of times about doing a little bit of writing in this genre.

Starting point is 00:50:29 You're not doing a book. No. But you're doing something. I think now's the time to start kind of teasing things out a little bit. Can you just tell us what is Tim working on these days? And you don't have to go into a lot of detail, but can you give us a little bit of like, I'm fleshing out doing this or maybe pushing here? Here's what I'll say. I'll say that, I'm not going to divulge too much, but I will say that I've been experimenting with fiction for about a year and a half, two years. Well, you did the NFT with us, which is great to bring it up. So my first NFT experiment,

Starting point is 00:51:02 thanks to your encouragement, was a short fiction piece called If You Want to Start it up. So my first NFT experiment, thanks to your encouragement, was a short fiction piece called If You Want to Start a War. And I really enjoyed the process of putting that together. And specifically the writing process of playing with fiction. And in that particular case, it was very strongly based on real events. It's fiction, but a lot of it was based on real people and real events, which makes it even spookier if people want to check that out. And we did that through Grails, which was great. And I'm continuing to work those muscles after a lot of conversations with people like Steven Pressfield and others who have been very encouraging. I may have some stuff to show in the next few months.

Starting point is 00:51:52 Cool. I'll put it that way. But it has been a great excuse to read and watch a lot of fiction, sci-fi and fantasy primarily. And I've learned so much. I've ended up going really deep. So with Ursula K. Le Guin, for instance, who was a huge influence on Neil Gaiman, whose writing I've loved for a very long time, including books that I've recommended probably on previous random shows many years ago, like The Graveyard Book, which is just fantastic. If people only read nonfiction and you want an easy gateway drug, try that out. The audiobook by Neil Gaiman is fantastic.

Starting point is 00:52:33 In any case, so I'm working as I'm thinking about fiction through these influences and lineages, right? So I'm looking at Neil Gaiman, like all sorts of aspects of his process and writing. And then I hear him talking about Ursula K. Le Guin. Then I go on Twitter and ask people, if I'm only going to read one of her books, which one should I read? Get a whole host of answers. Start with The Wizard of Earthsea. That leads me somewhere else.

Starting point is 00:52:59 Then I watch a PBS documentary on her life and then learn about A, B, and C and just following the breadcrumbs of my curiosity in that way has... So Tim, I've seen you like this a handful of times. I've seen you write a handful of books now. We've been friends that long. And I see when you go down rabbit holes and I see this, and I can recognize it. And it means that you're up to something big. I'm just... Yeah. It really does yeah and you look happy when you're describing this it looks like you're having a good time i'm in a good time that makes me happy yeah thanks man yeah yeah i'm excited i'm excited and it's i feel like i'm awakening muscles or creative processes that have been dormant for a long time.

Starting point is 00:53:47 It feels like this is potentially a new way for you to flex your creativity in a different... It's something that you've been... It sounds like this is something you've had a passion for for a very long time. And now is the first time you're like, okay, I'm going to go for it here. Yeah, totally. And it brings back so many, and there's a value here, right? It's not just simple nostalgia there. It brings back so many emotional imprints that were powerful and positive when I was a kid. And especially given some of the darker stuff that I've talked about in my childhood, it's easy for my psyche to weigh the negative more heavily, right? To weigh the dark stuff more heavily.

Starting point is 00:54:29 But by, say, going then into some of these corners of the fiction world, it's brought me back to, for instance, right now I'm rereading The NeverEnding Story by Michael Enda, which was my favorite book as a kid. And I remember I used to get in trouble. I would pull pranks and stuff and get sent to detention. And detention in elementary school was in a few places. I always tried to dodge the nurse's office because it's so boring. I wanted to get sent to the library. And then I would get sent to the library. And I started reading The NeverEnding Story and I fell so in love with it that I took it out of its spot and I hid it in

Starting point is 00:55:10 a different corner of the library so that nobody else would take it out so I wouldn't get interrupted. And then I would get into detention again and I would know exactly where it was hidden so I could go back and continue reading The NeverEnding Story. And I don't know if you've ever had this experience. Maybe some people might have this experience if, for instance, they saw Aladdin as a kid and then they go and watch it as an adult and they're like, oh my God, Robin Williams had a lot of humor for adults. And I didn't notice it as a kid. Similarly, with a lot of these fiction books, like you read The Wizard of Earthsea or you read The NeverEnding Story, there is a lot of deep philosophical discussion and a lot of insight. And you might even say truth that is really applicable, maybe even more so to adults who can grok that piece of it.

Starting point is 00:56:00 Don't you love that when you reread something a little bit later? And it just hits you in a completely different way. Yeah, totally. It's the best. It's a lot of fun. So I'm lit up. I feel good. That's awesome. I love to hear that. I've got a couple, I know we're coming up on an hour here, but I've got a couple more quick little things that are fun. Coming up on an hour? How old are we?

Starting point is 00:56:19 Jesus. It's time to go to bed. It's 945. It's 945, time to have my warm milk and go to bed put on my overalls a little more chamfers love thank you tim needs a little splash of something too carbonated water's from crate for me um so this is a fun one actually this is completely off topic but i thought it was just it's such a fun little i love this is off topic for the random show yeah it's gonna be thank you very much really appreciate it so one of the things that i love about the random shows we can bring up

Starting point is 00:56:56 anything and it's just like it's like what are we excited about what little hacks are we finding and we used to do a lot of that back in the day. Now that we're old. Now we're just old and lazy. Yeah, we're like- Hacks, who has time for that? We were joking about this before we went live. We're going to talk about like what cholesterol medicine we're on and shit. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:57:13 I was just saying the 20-year-old versions of us would be so disappointed. So disappointed. So inflation is a bitch right now, right? It's kind of going crazy. One of the things that- It's like $34 avocado toast here in Santa Monica. It's not cheap.

Starting point is 00:57:28 People are hurting. We got to go tomorrow, by the way. I know a great place. We're going to take you to. So one of the things that I've always generally avoided are just bonds, government bonds, because the interest rates have been shed, right? So they have something called the I-bonds.

Starting point is 00:57:43 And so I-bonds- I, letter I. Yeah, letter I. And so I-bonds- Dumb, dumb question. Yeah the I-bonds. And so I-bonds... I, letter I. Yeah, letter I. And so I-bonds... Dumb, dumb question. Yeah. I-bonds? Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:57:50 E-Y-E. Not the E-Y-E. So the letter I-bonds, you can buy directly on treasurydirect.gov, which is the government website. And I've done this over the last couple of years. And it's great. They max out at 10K. So the most you can put in is 10 grand. And you can do it for you. Your spouse can have one. And then also you can

Starting point is 00:58:09 do it for your kids as well. And right now the I-bond is based on the current inflation plus interest on top of that. So you get 9.62% from the government. Like that's good right and and granted that can change with inflation and all that but like i'll lock in that rate any day like i'll go for that for sure so if you have a hundred dollars you can do it this is applicable to pretty much everyone right so not investment advice but no it's totally investment but if you use code kev kev yeah exactly well the government website use code k row and identify as child of no it's just it's one of those things where it's like dude when you talk about a good year in the stock market you're talking you know 10 is what you're kind of hoping for on average yeah for sure and

Starting point is 00:58:58 and that's with a lot of risk right and the fact that you can get a u.s government bond and it's going to yield you 9.62 right now, that's just free money. Listen, if the government defaults on their bonds, yes, come after me. Well, I mean, look. We'll have marauder trucks on the roads. By that point, it'll be hard to find, Kevin. Yeah, exactly. But anyway, I thought it was worth bringing up.

Starting point is 00:59:23 Oh, for sure. Clearly, if I'm asking if it's I bond with, for sure. I've never, I, I, clearly if I'm asking if it's I bond with an EYE, I've never heard of it either. So right there with you folks. I got two today for my kids and I'm just going to like put that as car money for the future. Yeah. Just let it go.

Starting point is 00:59:39 And then when it expires, I'll go reinvest it. And yeah, it's, it's good. Cool. I bond, I bonds with an eye. hack so i got a couple i'm not sure this is count as a hack but i'll just i'll lump it in or include it because it relates

Starting point is 00:59:52 to thematically the stuff that's going on in my mind and that is i watched a master class so company's master class they have all these various instructionals with people in every discipline you can imagine, including a number that I've already mentioned, like Neil Gaiman. And they had one with Amy Tan, who's a very famous novelist. And the first few segments in particular I found incredibly compelling. And she's so eloquent also. She seems to speak in finished prose and I only know a few people like that. And it always just blows my mind that they're able to do that. Sam Harris would be another one waking up. Remember, side note, I don't think Sam would mind me asking.

Starting point is 01:00:38 At one point, I was listening to his many meditations and I listened to one and I texted him and I said, Sam, is there any chance I could get the text for like the X, Y, and Z episode? And he's like, what do you mean the text? And I'm like, the script that you used for recording the A, B, and C part of that episode. And he goes, oh, I don't use scripts. And I was like, oh, yeah, you and I are just different animals, different species entirely. That's impressive he just wings it, because it's good content. I mean, he is, yeah, he just has different hardware.

Starting point is 01:01:16 And it's not just a, it's not born that way. I recognize it's also a skill that he's developed. But Amy Tan, similar. Very, very well spoken and extremely good at explaining how she approaches different facets of fiction and how she has pulled from her own life. She also has an entire segment where she goes through all of the rejection letters, or at least some of the most notable of the rejection letters that she got in the beginning. Just rejection after rejection after rejection. What was cool that you don't see, at least I didn't see when I got a lot of my

Starting point is 01:01:50 rejections, is fiction editors in a number of cases gave her great feedback on her manuscript. So they read the whole thing and then they were like, this is what you could do to improve this part and here are three other things you could do to really strengthen this aspect of it. You just, at least in my experience, don't get that from rejections and nonfiction. So it was cool to see not just how she thought about responding to criticism. She was actually really grateful for a lot of the letters, but also how much she gained from the feedback and then used to iterate or fiction, which is just fantastic. Do you do the monthly on that masterclass or do you do the yearly?

Starting point is 01:02:31 I did neither. In this particular case, I got a freebie, a freebie on like Delta airlines or United or something. Oh, I just keep getting billed for that shit. I always think I'm going to like watch a bunch of them, you know,

Starting point is 01:02:43 and I sign up for it. I'm still paying for match.com and because I could not figure out how to cancel a bunch of them, you know? I mean, I'm still paying for Match.com because I could not figure out how to cancel a thing. And it's like, I haven't used Match in like 20 years. So you're welcome, Match.com. Yeah. I still get fucked up with a few things. There's like two or three things

Starting point is 01:02:59 I just can't figure out how to cancel. Seriously. And you know what's funny? I figured it out they only bill you close to midnight because they know the push notifications come through the other night i was up late and it was like 11 30 and i had one of those pop down and it was the yearly thing yeah clever and i'm like you fucker and then i went to bed i don't even know who it is i forgot but they got me it sucks oh you know hey that's what growth hacking is for yeah exactly uh let's see

Starting point is 01:03:30 here so physical training i've been thinking a lot about physical training i have you've got a cut now dude i have a little bit of a gut i mean look at this look at my shit you're as fat as i am like fat definitely i'm not i'm not are Are you kidding me? No, you're like fat bastard from Austin Powers. Let me see it. Let me see. Okay, I'm definitely skinnier than you, dude. What? Are you telling me?

Starting point is 01:03:53 No, no. Let me feel that. Okay, you're a little skinnier. I'm not proud of it. I'm not proud. And I'm not going to blame it on age. Although I guess I will say things are slowing down, that's for sure. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:07 But I have actually lost a decent amount of this baby fat using a couple of... It's not baby fat anymore. It's geriatric fat. Yeah. With a few simple things. One is a mechanically assisted or I should say mechanically resisted sled. So you don't have to load it with plates. And it's on inflatable, I think they're inflatable, one maybe solid rubber tires so you can use them on, say, a driveway.

Starting point is 01:04:39 And I've been using the XPO Trainer plus some jump rope, which is very minimal. Jump rope is hard, dude. Yeah, I do that for like five or ten minutes. Doesn't it kill you? I did jump rope recently. I was like dead afterwards. It's hard, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:55 That's kind of the point in the beginning. Yeah, I know. But I thought it was going to be like some schoolyard shit. That shit's difficult. Oh, no, it's hard. It's hard. So I'll do the jump rope, then the XPO trainer, and then kettlebells. And I have some alternation, but most mornings I will do some combination of those things. And I've been doing, I mean, it's pretty easy for me to do intermittent fasting. So I'm just doing late lunch, early dinner, typically. Can we get one of those croissants in the morning I was telling you about? Look, man, I haven't seen you in what, like 27 years?

Starting point is 01:05:25 You're on vacation. Yeah. I mean, if I use travel as vacation equals I can eat butter cookies anytime I want, I'm going to turn, I will turn into Fat Bastard from Austin Powers, which is not the look I'm going for. Especially, imagine bald Fat Bastard. That's not good. No, you don't want that.

Starting point is 01:05:41 No. All right. What else you got here? I think the last thing for me was that i did one of these full body scans what oh yeah so oh yeah daria is telling me it is true i do i do super no we're not cutting a video of me doing supernatural i do a vr workout called supernatural three times a week have you tried this i have no idea what you're talking about oh my god we have to get tim to do it right after this right yes you're gonna freak out dude okay it's really

Starting point is 01:06:09 good i hate vr it's stupid this is amazing well i love that you've been like short vr for like the last 10 years and i've made good money being short but you you now own a vr device yeah well i've had a vr device you have to play with all the latest shit if you're a technologist. Yeah, all right. I'm just saying that it's dumb, except for this app. This app's amazing. So Supernatural, you have two lightsabers, and you have to slice shit in the air. And it sounds like it's not Fruit Ninja.

Starting point is 01:06:38 It's way better than that. It's done to music. It's choreographed to music. It's amazing. Okay. Tim, you're lovely i mean like lightsabers chopping things yeah you choreographed to music i mean that's three for three for me so anyway supernatural is how i get my um my hit in every every almost like every other day pretty much so so more more slicing and less jump rope yeah you'll like it we'll try more

Starting point is 01:07:04 croissants we're gonna try it afterwards um so that's my big thing the other thing i was gonna say is i did one of those full body mri scans called yeah we should talk about this this is something i need to get on yeah you know what honestly it was like i don't know if it was my mom getting cancer i think i did it before that but like i was just one of those things where i got to this stage in life where I had a couple little girls and I'm like, you know, Tia was telling me. He was like, hey, you can do these. You're at the age now where it makes sense. See if anything shows up.

Starting point is 01:07:33 They can detect something like 80% of cancers at stage one, which is amazing. And so I was like, okay, let's do it. So I went and did it two years ago. Came back. You know, all the standard stuff. Like, oh, we see this here, but, you know, that's normal. Like, okay, let's do it. So I went and did it two years ago, came back, you know, all the standard stuff like, oh, we see this here, but you know, that's normal law. Like this is a little bit weird. You have an extra vertebrae, which I actually do, which is weird.

Starting point is 01:07:52 So a little vestigial tail. Yeah, exactly. A bunch of shit like that. Ladies. So I do that. And then I go for year two and I go and get the scan again and they call me up and they're they're like yeah it turns out you have a little brain aneurysm a little a little small brain aneurysm and i'm like i'm like what the fuck like this is crazy okay tell me more and then

Starting point is 01:08:18 after the fact like a month later or not a month later but a few weeks later my doctor calls them and says hey what do we see on the first scan? They found it on the first scan as well. It hadn't changed, which is great. Yeah. And it's super tiny. It's the smallest.

Starting point is 01:08:32 My doctor said if they hadn't been using the latest tech, they wouldn't even have detected it at all because it was so small. So it's only one millimeter and they don't treat them until they get to seven millimeters. So it's like, it's totally fine. You want to keep your blood pressure low and all that. But it's also, it's weird because in some sense,

Starting point is 01:08:48 like you want to detect those stage one cancers, but there's a lot of false positives. Not that this is a false positive. It's something to pay attention to. Certainly changing my dietary actions in terms of keeping sodium low and like lowering my blood pressure. But it's something you should do.

Starting point is 01:09:03 Which is why we're having croissants and coffee tomorrow. Exactly. Well, I mean, that's not going to mess my blood pressure. I. But it's something you should do. Which is why we're having croissants and coffee tomorrow. Exactly. Well, I mean, that's like I messed my blood pressure. I'm just fucking with you. But, you know, it's like. I mean, was that, I would imagine that to be terrifying. Yeah. It's 45 minutes, so it's fast.

Starting point is 01:09:16 Not the procedure. The review of the results. Yeah. I mean, you go through it and I have a couple spots in my brain and they told me you're allowed one per decade. And so like, you're fine. You have, you know, two or three or whatever. That's fine. I'm like, okay, this still doesn't sound good. It's like a bruised apple, but that's fine. Yeah. And then they're like, they're like your lymph nodes. This is the first scan. They're like, your lymph nodes are really swollen on the left side. I'm like, cool. Like, what does that mean? And they're like, did you get your, your COVID vaccine on that side. I'm like, cool. What does that mean? And they're like, did you get your COVID vaccine

Starting point is 01:09:45 on that side? I'm like, yeah, I did. And they're like, okay, that's why. And then that would turn out to be fine. And then they found some other shit. There's a little bit of a little... A little tail? No, there's a little... I have this little tiny bulge in my right nut sack.

Starting point is 01:10:03 It's kind of like the little stringy thing that connects to the sack kind of bulged out a little bit and they're like that's totally normal it's not cancer you're fine blah blah so like you know it's just like cool oh my god i can't wait until our random shows when we're like in our 60s and 70s it just going to be a litany of injuries and prostate complaints. Oh my God. So let me just rewind. So I make sure.

Starting point is 01:10:31 No, just make sure I'm hearing you correctly. So were you pissed that they did not. If it hadn't changed. That they didn't spot it first time around. I think it was so small that they just, they have different. It's not a radiologist. Whoever it is that reviews it. It's probably a radiologist. I think it was it was so small that they just they have different it's not a radiologist whoever it is that reviews it it's probably radiologist i think it is i think the first was like this is so insignificant i don't even need to call it out and the second one called it out for and they were just like and then they compared the notes and it was fine this is the

Starting point is 01:10:57 story i haven't told friend of mine went in had a scan they found a growth in his brain, non-cancerous, a decent size, operated, removed it. He's fine, but he didn't even know he had it. And he was just going in for a thing and it was growing. And it saved his life, most likely. Yeah, that's wild. And so it's shit like that. And the radiologist, when I talked to him, he said the number, he goes, I don't really drink.

Starting point is 01:11:23 He goes, but the number of bottles of wine I get in the mail from people that are like like you saved my life because you found this at stage one or stage two i don't know it's just one of those things where get your diagnostics folks and i mean do it more i hesitate to say this but like don't don't push out the interval if you're supposed to get something every five years if anything get it more frequently. Don't push it out. So I have recently had the opposite experience with a friend of mine who went in for a routine exam, stage four cancer, terminal. Holy shit.

Starting point is 01:11:56 And I just spent several days with him. What type of cancer? Not because, I don't want to give specifics just in case people try and gillateulate stuff but it's metastasized and at this point surgery at least some type of surgery don't make any sense and man if you want a proof point for what someone can do with decades of meditation practice. He is incredibly upbeat, he's super happy, he is as productive as he can be, he's spending a lot of time with loved ones, of course, but he is consciously choosing, of all the decision trees,

Starting point is 01:12:43 a path of gratitude and not naive optimism, but optimism in the sense of looking at everything as the glass half full. And I was so inspired by this because I'm going through some hard stuff myself. And to see someone in those circumstances able to demonstrate that, it just blew my mind. And I've spent, I know him well enough and we've had enough interactions, I know it is not an act. It is not an act. And I'm really impressed because that's not automatically the case. I mean, there are people, including famous, famous meditators who are world-famous teachers who on their deathbeds or in the process of going through hospice just say over and over again to their closest friends, like, I don't want to die, I don't want to die, I don't want to die. And they're afraid, which is understandable. I might be that person.

Starting point is 01:13:37 I mean, certainly. I have no confidence that I would end up responding the way my friend is responding. But it's been incredibly inspiring. Wow. Yeah. And it's certainly sad in its own way, but a real gift that he's also giving those around him. It's incredible.

Starting point is 01:13:55 How are you dealing with all that? You mean with his situation? Being a friend, having a friend go through something like that. Are you going to see him again? Do you think before he passes or is it something I would like to, I would like to, I mean, it's,

Starting point is 01:14:09 I don't know how long the time horizon is. It's, it's, uh, it may not be that long. I am doing well with it because of how he is able to choose to respond to this unfolding story. Of course, it's sat on a number of levels, but I mean, we all have a one-way ticket as far as we know.

Starting point is 01:14:38 My dad, before he passed, said there's no lease on life. He just wanted to remind me of that. Yeah. It's coming for all of us yeah yeah absolutely and it's and it's not something you want to think about all the time right but if you think about it none of the time you also have problem and this this has been a very strong reminder for me it's like yeah get it together you know like when i had don't dick around too much like have fun don't take everything seriously but also realize that like every moment you have like this not to get all cheesy but it's

Starting point is 01:15:12 like these are precious amazing moments yeah everybody's healthy yeah i think about that with my girls every day dude the kids you know um i I had Sam Harris on the podcast a while ago, a couple years ago, and we talked about the Buddhist monk that was sitting in a meditative pose on the cover of Rage Against the Machine that had doused himself in gasoline in defiance of the local government

Starting point is 01:15:38 and lit himself on fire and did not flinch. And this has been recorded, and there was pictures and everything else video video did not move yeah holy shit you want to talk about meditation really working like oh god yeah yeah i can't do that i could barely stay in a cold plunge this morning for three minutes so yeah i was in the sauna today i'm like oh 15 minutes ago we're gonna make it 20 okay we're gonna go for it yeah yeah it is i mean it's uh you know all these things are kind of by all these

Starting point is 01:16:14 things i guess i'm bookending some of our earlier discussion that touched on psychedelics and i mentioned psychiatry and these tectonic plate shifts that i think are are currently underway but will be most noticeable five ten years from now and the types of feats that we're describing all point to severe i think under appreciation for what we are capable of in terms of shaping mind and consciousness. Because lighting yourself on fire and not flinching should not be possible. No. Not even David Blank can do that. No one wants to end up having to test that.

Starting point is 01:17:01 Right. But there are a lot of outcomes that we're seeing, say, in treating various diagnoses related to, I don't want to say mental illness, but psychiatric conditions that are considered intractable or extremely difficult to treat. And some of the outcomes that we're seeing, which are not solely produced through psychedelics, I don't want to make psychedelics sound like a panacea of any type. They're not. They have, in some cases, very significant risks. But it's clear that many of the paradigms through which we've treated patients, specifically with any type of what we consider mental illness, is likely resting on a number of assumptions that are completely untrue.

Starting point is 01:17:45 Yeah. And that's exciting. It's really exciting. I remember our friend, Dr. Weil, 20 years ago, was speaking about chemotherapy and said how barbaric it will look in the future. And it turns out that is actually true. We have immunotherapy now.

Starting point is 01:18:02 My mom's going through it. There's a lot of these things that are very, very promising. And we're just like a few years away from some really exciting breakthroughs. I'm not sure if you saw that New York Times article about the, it was like eight out of eight patients cured with this new type of immunotherapy and cancer. Did you see that? It was a groundbreaking, crazy study about this new type of immunotherapy that's just now coming out here soon.

Starting point is 01:18:23 But I'd imagine the same is true for psychedelics, right? Like, you know, 20 years from now, they'll have honed it and figured out the right dose, the right, I mean, they may even modify those molecules, like who knows where it's going to go, but it's going to be exciting. It is going to be exciting. I think the, you know, we're all driven by our beliefs, right?

Starting point is 01:18:44 These thoughts we take to be true and assumptions, even scientists are subject to this, right? I mean, scientists are not robots. And so you have anyone doing anything comes in with a certain set of biases or biases. And in psychedelics, you see also in the psychedelic for-profit sector, you see a lot of motivated reasoning where you have a number of split camps and different kind of schisms within these communities. And one of them is between camp a and camp a believes that many of the clinical outcomes for depression and ptsd and so on are driven by the content of an experience and the narrative that you can restructure after you observe it for the first time perhaps right the software that's behind many of your decisions blah blah blah blah they think it's the content

Starting point is 01:19:43 in which case if that is your belief and in ideal world, you would be able to test these things definitively, and many people are making attempts at this, but it's really challenging. Then you want enough workspace to allow all that to play out. So let's just say psilocybin and having a session of four to six hours would be viewed as a feature and not a bug. Then you have Camp B, which is saying, oh yeah, all those hallucinations, terrible side effects. Really what's happening is on this structural level and this type of XYZ is happening to this receptor and we can do all of that if we change the molecule without the psychedelic effects and also press it into like a 30-minute session and that will copy and paste into our current medical

Starting point is 01:20:32 formatting much more easily but there's a profit motive there right because if you can scale something in that way and reduce some of the quote-unquote side effects. And also patent it. Yeah, and absolutely patent it. And then also make it a drug that you need to take at least twice a week or maybe even every day instead of once a month or once every three months. Is that necessarily a bad thing, though? It's not automatically a bad thing, but I just think it's important for folks

Starting point is 01:21:02 to be aware of incentives and to track incentives, right? Because then it just turns into another, a better antidepressant, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It depends on how the antidepressant is achieving its effects, right? And there are immediate changes that can be beneficial in a whole host of different situations with medicine, generally speaking, right? So with the pharmacological intervention, it's like like if you're bleeding out and you need a coagulant, like you don't want the,

Starting point is 01:21:29 you don't have to wait a long time for that to work. And similarly, it's like if you are suffering from suicidal ideation and are at risk of harming or killing yourself, you need something that's gonna work really quickly. In which case, just putting this out there as an intravenous ketamine treatment may be something you consider. It's not going to fix all of your problems, but it's going to stop the immediate bleeding, so to speak.

Starting point is 01:21:53 Isn't that what they do if someone comes in and they're about to commit suicide? Don't they give them IV ketamine? I've heard that's a thing. I don't know what it looks like. Actually, I'd love to hear from people in the audience who know how something like that is triaged in an ER. If somebody shows up and maybe a loved one brought them and they're like, I'm going to blow my head off, I would have to imagine there's sedation. Maybe they use some hypnotics. They might use ketamine.

Starting point is 01:22:17 I don't know. I had heard that once i don't know i do know i know a number of people who were on the verge of blowing their heads off who with competent supervised ketamine assisted therapy i mean literally within one or two sessions were able to say i don't know what i was so upset about like i can't even believe i was so wound up about that. And that's incredible. It's not a indefinite fix, but to answer your question, to come back, like there are cases in which I think it makes sense to have some type of maintenance dose, right? So let's just say you're able to strip out a bunch of the hallucinogenic or psychedelic effects from LSD, and it remains incredibly effective for cluster

Starting point is 01:23:05 headaches, which is actually one indication. And the best combination of effect and minimizing side effects is to have some small dose four or five days a week. Great. Fantastic. But if you're trying to process or contend with some type of childhood trauma that has been plaguing your automatic behaviors and maybe addictions, perhaps self-destructive or otherwise destructive behaviors, then I don't know if what we need is a maintenance drug. There may be more psychological surgery required for that, in which case perhaps the content does play a meaningful role. I happen to believe that's the case in many instances. But 10 years from now, yeah, psychedelics is going to be crazy because

Starting point is 01:23:55 it's subject to these market forces and these incentives. So don't ask a barber if you need a haircut kind of situation. If you go to an orthopedic surgeon and you're like, do I need surgery? They're not all going to say you need surgery, but they have a certain incentive to do surgery. So realizing that in advance is important. But I do think what we will find through the study of psychedelics is even if psychedelics as compounds were to disappear 10 years from now, let's just say, let's just say they go back to being reclassified, rescheduled, and then all over the place. And then who knows, like some senator's kid jumps off a balcony and then the whole thing goes kaput and it's thrown back into psychedelic

Starting point is 01:24:44 scientific winter. Even if that's the case, within the next 10 to 15 years, I think we will learn so many new things about the functioning of the mind and processing of trauma, metabolizing of difficult experience and issues such as treatment-resistant depression, complex PTSD, that the treatment paradigms will shift even if the compounds disappear, which I don't think they will. And I also think there's so many indications that do not require high doses of psychedelics, which will be well-treated with lower doses of psychedelics. So I'm excited to see what bears out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. So I'm excited to see what bears out. Yeah,

Starting point is 01:25:25 absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else you want to cover? I think that's it for me. Yeah. I'm, I'm good as well.

Starting point is 01:25:35 It was awesome. Yeah. Good to see you brother. Yeah. Good to see you too, man. Thanks for having me over for dinner. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:25:40 Sitting on our couch here. Mr. Toast is in the background for those watching the audience. Yeah. 12 and doing well. Yeah. Passed out. So, you know,

Starting point is 01:25:47 not that long, well, it is, I mean, it is long ago. Not in like historical evolutionary terms, but in like our lifetime terms a while ago. Like we had a shot

Starting point is 01:25:58 very much like this in San Francisco in one of your, I don't want to say first apartments, but earlier apartments with a couch like this and toast walked by as a puppy and chewed through one of these audio cables xlr cables totally back then i had a little bit of hair that's right i think isn't that crazy that

Starting point is 01:26:20 you had hair back then yeah it's weird it's weird somebody, they're like, yeah, but you could probably figure out how to regrow hair. And I'm like, yeah, but if I just suddenly disappeared for six months and then reappeared with a huge mop on my head. I mean, that's what Elon Musk did. Did you see the early Elon Musk pictures where he was bald?

Starting point is 01:26:38 Yeah, you could do it. I could do it, but A, I don't feel the need. B, I just think, especially from my friends i would get so much endless shit do you think you should do it darryl right now she said no no no yeah it's tim tim yeah no mr clean i've grown into the mr clean look i'm good i'm good with it uh all right brother all right we'll do this again in a few months. Yeah, for sure.

Starting point is 01:27:05 Yeah. See more of each other in person. All right. Peace. Peace. Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday.

Starting point is 01:27:16 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field,

Starting point is 01:28:02 and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog slash Friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog slash Friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify is one of my favorite companies out there, one of my favorite platforms ever. And let's get into it. Shopify is a platform, as I mentioned, designed for anyone to sell anything anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. So what does that mean? That means in no time flat, you can have a great looking online store that brings your ideas,

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Starting point is 01:30:06 Gain knowledge and confidence with extensive resources to help you succeed. And I've actually been involved with some of that way back in the day, which was awesome. The Build a Business competition and other things. Plus, with 24-7 support, you're never alone. And let's face it, being an entrepreneur can be lonely, but you have support, you have resources, you don't need to feel alone in this case. More than a store, Shopify grows with you and they never stop innovating, providing more and more tools to make your business better and your life easier. Go to shopify.com slash Tim, that's S-H-O-P-I-F-Y dot com slash Tim, all lowercase for a free trial and get full access to Shopify's entire suite of features. Start selling on Shopify today. Go to Shopify.com

Starting point is 01:30:53 slash Tim right now and check it out. They have a lot to offer. Shopify.com slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. I've been asked this for years. The answer is invariably AG1 by Athletic Greens. I view it as all-in-one nutritional insurance, so you can cover your bases. If you're traveling, if you're just busy, if you're not sure if your meals are where they should be, it covers your bases. I've recommended it since the 4-Hour Body, which was, God, eons ago, 2010, and I did not get paid to do so. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients, you'll be hard-pressed to find a more nutrient-dense

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #622: A Rare In-Person Random Show with Kevin Rose — VR Workouts, I Bonds, Excellent Movies, Recent Books, Lessons from Amy Tan, How to Shape Your Mind, and More

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