The Tim Ferriss Show - #697: Rich Paul — The Power Broker and Superstar Agent Behind LeBron James, Draymond Green, and Others

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Starting point is 00:05:22 What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, to interview

Starting point is 00:05:45 them in order to tease out the frameworks, lessons learned, habits, routines, etc. that you can hopefully test and apply to your own lives. It may just be a mode of thinking, but there's always something that translates. My guest today is Rich Paul. Rich Paul is the CEO and founder of Clutch Sports Group, the powerhouse agency representing some of the biggest athletes across major professional sports. Paul founded Clutch Sports in 2012 in his hometown of Cleveland, Ohio, where he forged a unique and personal approach to representing top NBA talent, putting athletes first and empowering them to build careers and brands on and off the court. And some of his numbers are just unbelievable. And we get into stories from negotiations and much more in this conversation. In 2019, Clutch Sports partnered with United Talent Agency, otherwise known as UTA.

Starting point is 00:06:39 Paul serves as UTA's head of sports and is an agency partner, and he was appointed to UTA's board of directors in 2020. In 2019, Paul was also named GQ's Power Broker of the Year and dubbed the Kingmaker on the cover of Sports Illustrated. In 2021, Time recognized Clutch Sports on its first-ever list of the Time 100 Most Influential Companies, and Variety recently named Paul to their Variety 500 list of the most influential business leaders shaping the global media industry. Paul is also credited with driving the reversal of the so-called Rich Paul rule, which would have banned agents without a college degree from representing NCAA student-athletes. In 2021, Paul and three former Nike executives

Starting point is 00:07:20 formed a company called Adopt, a creative agency focused on sport, wellness, nutrition, tech, and other consumer-facing products. In 2022, Paul joined the board of trustees of LACMA and the board of directors of Funco and Designer Brands. And this year, in 2023, he joined the board of directors of Live Nation. He's also a minority partner of the Spring Hill Company. His latest book is Lucky Me, A Memoir of Changing the Odds. You can find him on Instagram at Rich Paul and on Twitter at Rich Paul 4, that is the number 4. And without further ado, please enjoy a wide-ranging conversation with Rich Paul. Rich, it is a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for making the time. Thanks for having me, Tim. I thought we would begin with something that came up in my research, and that is R&J Confectionery.

Starting point is 00:08:16 Could you please explain for listeners what R&J Confectionery was? R&J Confectionery was, to most people, it was a store which my dad owned and operated, community store set on the corner of 125th and Edmonton on the east side of Cleveland in the Glenville area. For me, it was Harvard, Stanford, Penn. That's what it was for me. It was my curriculum. It was my education. It was where I was molded and built and taught so many different things just through interaction. And also what I would say was just being able to observe as well. Now, what types of things were you observing? What age were you when you first started spending time there? Could you just paint a picture for us? Yeah, I was very young. I probably first started spending time in the store when I was first able to walk. So a lot of the customers there watched me grow up. And over time, the neighborhood obviously changed. And so there were great days, fun days, where you're a little kid running around the store, helping, picking out candy, eating candy, playing with your friends. And then there were days in which you started to see a difference. I started to see my friends' moms go from this vibrant,

Starting point is 00:09:31 beautiful person to kind of strung out on crack. I saw young men go from playing sports to now interacting and engaging in things as an adult. I saw a lot of violence, but at the same time, it was where you got to observe and see how people moved and people that you looked up to or you thought were cool. And so it was just this combustion of activity throughout the day. And my dad kind of sat as the air traffic control by him owning the store. And so I learned a lot of what to do. I learned a lot of what not to do. I had several influences, both good and bad, several instances in which I was able to probably experience some things and hear some conversations that at that age, you probably shouldn't. But at the same time,

Starting point is 00:10:23 when I look back on it, I'm so glad I was able to because it really put a lot of things in perspective, especially for the seat I sit in now. Now, on the cover of your book, I believe you're around 14, 13 or 14 years old. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. And I'm curious why you chose that photo or that age for the cover. I think that's the age where in life there's a fork in the road, right? And I think for me, and it's just in my experience, that's the age in which a lot of my friends started to go down a different road. And that's the age for us growing up where you actually feel like you're an adult.

Starting point is 00:11:04 I'm going to make this decision. You're held accountable for it. The Muni League football games and the baseball games and things like that for some are not as exciting. Now I want to make money. Now I want to stay out all night and just do certain things. And so that was the age when I had several pictures to choose from, but I chose that picture because I think if you think about even now and today, especially in my community across America where I come from and all communities like that, that age is just so important. That's the age where you start to go down one path or the other. And I started losing a lot of friends around that age. Let's hop to the present tense. And we're going to go back to a lot of things that I want to ask you about, including James Baldwin, who is endlessly interesting and fascinating to me.

Starting point is 00:11:54 But I would like to ask you about something I know very little about, and that is the free agency period. So my understanding is that in the frantic period that ensued this past July, you negotiated something along the lines of close to $900 million worth of contracts. for that and what that type of process looks like once the clock strikes and kind of the game is on? What is that experience like for people who don't have any familiarity? For those who look at it on ESPN or online, it's like, okay, it's midnight, July 1, phone lines are open, everybody can get to work. For me and for us, my team, free agency doesn't start July 1 in terms of your preparation. You start prepping beginning of the year, probably before the season, summer league. There's a lot of things that you need to prep for. There's a lot of posturing. There's a lot of conversations, information, just watching what other teams do, as well as

Starting point is 00:13:03 development and kind of giving your guy some insights as well so he can position himself better and understand what the team is looking for and whatnot. And so by the time you get to July, you pretty much have a decent board. There could be some times you don't know and there's teams pop up out of nowhere, but once that hits, now you're taking meetings with different teams. And if you're lucky enough to have a guy that has multiple teams, then he's trying to decide what fits best for him and his family on one end. And then you're trying to decide a number on the other end with that team. And so it's pretty hectic. It's a lot that comes with it. I know it looks easy,

Starting point is 00:13:43 but it's not easy. It doesn't look easy. Yeah, and we were blessed to reach that number, and I'm still in negotiations right now with a couple guys. And so it never ends. When you're doing the prep and you say when you have a decent board, and again, I apologize before we start recording, but I'm coming in very uneducated with this type of thing.

Starting point is 00:14:04 I just don't have the familiarity. I followed a few sports, but mostly boxing and fight sports. So with that in mind, what does it look like to have a decent board in front of you in terms of what you've decided or strategy or anything else? What does that look like? When you talk about a decent board, I'm speaking about the options that you may have based upon the players you represent. This year, we had a number of players that were sought after by a number of different teams. And so when you have those options, that's incredible. Any agent will tell you that's very hard to do.

Starting point is 00:14:36 And then it's just a matter of getting things done in a timely manner. One thing about it, teams like to be able to move. And so if you're moving your feet slow, they have to jump to somebody else. Very few people teams going to wait on. Very few people teams going to wait on. And so when you do have somebody that teams are actually going to wait on, you also have to balance that too, because you want to be respectful to them as well and their time. And so I try not to string people along. At the end of the day, you have to give yourself time, but there's definitely a balance. So I'd love to get into maybe a story or some specifics of the

Starting point is 00:15:13 negotiating process, because by all accounts, you're considered a master negotiator. And I'll give one example, maybe if you could speak to this. How did information that you received negotiating for Draymond Green's contract, which I think was four years and 100 million, inform how you then approached the market for Jeremy Grant, which ended up being five years, 160 million? Actually, Jeremy's was done before Draymond's. But to answer your question, Draymond was in a much different situation than Jeremy. He obviously is older. He's been on the team, one team, for 11 years at the time. He's a guy that his stats may not necessarily show his value.

Starting point is 00:15:54 But when you plug him somewhere, he brings a tremendous value. He brings a championship experience, a chip. He's one of the smartest guys on the court every night. And so when you're looking at, when you're negotiating for somebody like Draymond, analytics and all those things don't really matter. In Jeremy's case, we had already understood what was happening in Portland and with their star player at that time. But we also kept the conversation and communication to understand that they valued Jeremy there as well,

Starting point is 00:16:26 regardless what was going on with their star player. So that was great to know. And then there were some other teams around the league that anybody can use a 6'9", athletic wing like Jeremy, versatile, the whole nine. And it was a matter of if he wanted to stay in Portland despite what may have taken place. And so he did. And he had other teams with cap space that would actually spend the money, where Draymond was a little bit different. In order to get to his number, there was very few teams with the cap space to do that. So now you got to look at a sign and trade, which we had a sign and trade lined up.

Starting point is 00:17:02 But ultimately, Draymond wanted to stay with the Warriors. That's where he was drafted. That's where he had his success. And so at that point, you just have to turn and make the best deal with the team that he was on. So that's what I was able to do. So I'd like to, and this may be pushing for a tie-in, but I'm curious what type of gambling you were referring to when you were younger, right? So when you were a kid. We gambled on everything. If two people had discrepancy, the next word was bet.

Starting point is 00:17:31 So that was my mentality since I was seven, eight years old. My dad taught me how to shoot dice and play cards. And then that led to horseshoes or betting on any sports that you were capable of doing, whether it was racing from end to end or whether you decided to shoot jumpers at the park from the top of the key like you would see on White Men Can't Jump. We really did that at our park. I practiced it to the point to where I perfected it to where I could shoot with one hand. And so allowing me to, if I'm betting a guy and I'm going to shoot with one hand and he has to, his bet has to be more than my bet because I'm at a disadvantage, you know, sort of speaking. So everything we did, whether it was ping pong, whether it didn't, it didn't matter what it was shooting pool. I didn't want to play pool unless we were betting. I didn't want to bowl unless we

Starting point is 00:18:18 were betting. And so I just had that mentality growing up, just everything was about a bet. And so that's the type of gambling that was street gambling prior to me playing in the casino. But I don't really gamble as much at the casino as I would in the streets. It's a totally different vibe for me. What are some of the things that made you effective in street gambling? And were there any particular games that were your specialty or types of bets? Shooting dice, I was special. I had a, you know special. Steph Curry has a great three-point shot. I had a great shot. I was a Steph Curry of dice shooting for sure. But there was also a confidence and there was also, for some real weird reason, I felt like I can actually talk to the dice and they could speak

Starting point is 00:19:02 to me. That was my pet. Everyone has a dog or a teddy bear. The dice was kind of my pet. I would go around and just gamble. I would gamble against anybody. It didn't matter who it was. I would shoot dice against my grandmother if she had some money and wanted to bet. And that was just my mentality. So it was great.

Starting point is 00:19:20 It was good, though. But it was dangerous at times. And I think about it all the time sometimes, just being behind abandoned buildings or in the basement of an abandoned house. And you got this money and for things to go the way they went for me, I'm extremely lucky. And if we come back to the free agency period, I'm curious if, for instance, if you were for whatever reason sidelined and you had to coach someone to step in and in your place to have a lot of the conversations, to do a lot of the planning that you're talking about, are there any key pieces of advice that you might give them or warnings that you might give them? Do not do this. I tried this once.

Starting point is 00:20:03 It's a bad idea. Any advice that you think would be key? There's several things. You got to really watch out for friendly fire. There's a ton of friendly fire out there. Friendly fire in terms of giving too much information to somebody, and then they share that information, not knowing who they're sharing it with, and it comes back to, it backfires on you. Yeah, I bet you in the ass. Yeah, that happens a lot.

Starting point is 00:20:26 You know, you got to prepare. We've seen things happen this year with guys and it's not necessarily their fault. They wasn't prepared. You know, you're going into a meeting with somebody, you have to know pretty much what they're looking for and being able to kind of try to feel the answer to the test already. Patience, can't panic. You can't take any of it personal. It's not a personal thing. And I always say, some people define the business card and some people are defined by their business card. And so I don't carry a business card, so it puts things in perspective for you. But ultimately, every year I learn something new. I'm a sponge, man. I like to be educated. I have a different temperament than most would probably have. At the end of the day, you're only going to be as strong as your client. If you have a strong client, they trust you, and they are aligned, then I've been in situations where a deal got done in one day, and I've been in situations where it took three and a half months,

Starting point is 00:21:29 and I was fine with either one. How did you first meet LeBron? We met in the airport, Akron County Airport. What was the way in which you guys met? Did you go up to him? Did he say something to you? I had a Warren Moon Oilers jersey on that kind of caught his attention, and then he asked me about the jersey, and that's what started the conversation. And then that led to us bumping into each other again at the baggage claim. And I gave him my business card because at the time I did have a business card and I was selling jerseys to a store that he can go to locally in Atlanta. And then when he got back to Ohio, they reached out to me again and then that kind of started the relationship. How did the relationship evolve from that point? When I was young, my life had really gave me so many different tools and experiences.

Starting point is 00:22:10 And so when you're a young kid, like they were, I had all the things. I had the clothes. I had the jewelry. I had the car. I had the know-how. I had the confidence. I had the experience. And we would just talk.

Starting point is 00:22:22 But I think the thing that drew us together and closer was our moms. I was able to see him and observe things and have conversations with him where he could be himself and not feel the need to protect himself because I was going through the same thing or I had gone through the same thing. And so that was really brought us closer together. Was the family similarity? Yeah. Family similarity. Yeah. So I know I'm bouncing around a lot, but that's sort of the nature of my mind. So I'm trying to tease out some of the influences or models that you've had. I know you have portraits of a number of different people. And I understand that one of those is James Baldwin. And I was wondering if you could just explain what the significance is of James for you

Starting point is 00:23:11 or why you're attracted to him. Obviously, I didn't grow up with him in that space, but just watching old videos and things like that, just what he stood for, how articulate he was, how he saw things and broke it down, and the way he did it. I think it's important to really pay homage to people like that. That room that that picture's in, I have a number of people from entertainers to activists to actors from some of my favorite movies, both mob movies and movies that was created by John Singleton and the Hughes brothers and so on and so forth, as well as different legends in music and sports. That's a room of inspiration for me. But James Baldwin in particular, at a time where it wasn't popular to be as blunt as he was, it wasn't ideal for someone who looked like him to be as smart and articulate as he was from,

Starting point is 00:24:07 and not just on the surface, but in depth, that moved me. And that was somebody that I felt like I wanted to have on my wall. Yeah. I encourage everybody who's listening, if you are not familiar with the name, look up James Baldwin. I mean, so brilliant. So, as you mentioned, articulate, and also very good at presenting the messiness of life in a way that wasn't overindulgent, but very truthful and bold, like you mentioned. And very complicated life himself, like a lot of people. But I've collected quotes of his for the last year or two. Just an incredible, incredible depth of character. So I encourage people to check out James Baldwin if you haven't already. You have been incredibly successful in a world that on some level,

Starting point is 00:24:58 at least at points, has prioritized or highlighted formal degrees. How has that lens affected you? Well, I finished high school at a very high level. I just didn't need college. And I actually made an attempt to go to college and I actually enjoyed school. I really did. But my life was different. And for what I needed to do, I felt like I was prepared. My dad did an unbelievable job, and my environment did an unbelievable job of preparing me and equipping me with the tools necessary for me to persevere through life. I think society paints the picture of that you need a higher education for certain things. And I think that when you go to get a job, they go by what your education status is, which, again, for some jobs, I understand it. But most kids that graduate college, they're not working in their field that they got a degree in anyway.

Starting point is 00:25:53 So I don't know how much that actually matters. Indicator it is. Yeah. But I always felt prepared, especially for what I do, for sure. At some point, and again, this is me just looking at some reading in the process of preparing for this, but the NCAA announced a rule at one point that agents could not represent college athletes unless they themselves had a college degree. Now, at face value, that seems ridiculous. And then LeBron dubbed on Twitter this particular regulation,

Starting point is 00:26:20 the hashtag, the Rich Paul rule. Why do you think they tried to put this into action? And how did they justify it also? There was really no justification. I think they tried to put it into action to prevent the next Rich Paul. As much as it was about me, it wasn't nothing they could actually do to me, but they could discourage someone else. And it's no different than, again, you have to have a college degree to become this person. If you look at it, if you do the data, that basically carves out a specific group of people that are going to be given opportunity based upon the completion of a higher education. Because one thing about life, life don't always afford you to pay attention to higher education, especially when you grew up the way I did in terms of, and I know people had it worse than I did.

Starting point is 00:27:12 And so when you talk about just trying to survive and trying to survive the day, the week, the month, younger siblings and lights are off, gas is off, it's just a different dynamic. And it's unfair in a lot of ways because you basically feel trapped a lot of times. And so I feel like, again, that's just a discouragement. That's just an excuse to be able to say why you didn't give somebody an opportunity because they didn't have this. But I think there's more people that can actually learn on the job training, unless it's something like you have to code at Microsoft or Apple, or you have to, and even that, there's geniuses that learn this stuff at home. They're not learning it from a textbook. And so I just think it's all bullshit, to be honest with you. Yeah. it seems like people came around on it, whether they like to or not, end up on the same page. What would you say are any of the best investments you've made? And I'll

Starting point is 00:28:12 explain what I mean. You have taken a very unorthodox path to get to where you are. You have studied and you've learned and observed, like you mentioned, from a very young age. So for instance, I'll just give a couple examples. Warren Buffett would say one of his best investments, maybe his best investment, was taking a public speaking course, Dale Carnegie, because it sort of amplified everything he was able to do. A lot of people on the podcast have put time into something or energy into something that paid dividends later. What have been some of the best investments of time or energy or money that you've put in in terms of something that laid the ground for something that happened later? For me, it was the dry runs, getting out on that road, driving to get in front of a family and coming up short.

Starting point is 00:28:58 I think it really allows you to decide if this is something you really want to do. And if so, now I have to figure out ways to get better because I didn't play the money game. When I got into this business, I didn't play the money game. I didn't play the cut your fee game. I didn't do any of that. All the stuff that's still going on now, I didn't do that. And I was up against the bigger agencies that had the perception, the cachet, and they had the alliances within these universities and things like that to help them, give them information, give families the number or give the number of families, and then sit a kid in a room and tell them, don't tell them not to go somewhere because they don't want that on them, but they will tell them why they should go here.

Starting point is 00:29:40 So now when you call the coach, they say, well, I didn't tell them not to come with you, but you didn't tell them they should either. But you told them they should for this company that you happen to be represented by and stuff like that. So I had to deal with all those type of things and navigate my way around that, which I did. But that was one of the best investments for sure. And then I think the other thing was just kind of investing in self, knowing that and believing that despite the shortcomings, just stay at it. It'll turn. And again, in the dice game,

Starting point is 00:30:11 we used to have to be able to say, can you stand the rain? A guy is throwing point after point after point and you would have to stand in there and stand the rain and eventually they turn and things go the other way. So I was prepared. So when you mentioned you weren't playing the money game, do you mean that you were not cutting your fees as a way to try to make yourself more attractive? Could you say a bit more about

Starting point is 00:30:34 that? Yeah. Not cutting my fees is a way to make yourself, because everyone, people don't believe in your work practice or your expertise. And then the bigger companies, they're able to do that because they're just rolling it all into their annual revenue. So if you got 25 different verticals, okay, so sports is one of them and you roll it into it. And they look at it as, you know, we'll charge the higher less, we'll charge the middle more, and we'll charge the lower the max. And they'll be appreciative to be here because we probably shouldn't be representing them anyway and then we'll roll it all up and at the end of the day it goes on our books and i have a clear understanding of the business and so when you are

Starting point is 00:31:17 on your own you don't have that you can't do that and so i was able to get players to spite that and it actually drove them crazy and still does to this day. Yeah, better drove them crazy. So what were your selling points? The big agencies have all of the stuff that we could probably guess they would use to sell, right? We've got all this coverage, we've got all these verticals, we can expand in these following ways, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What did you find over time as you're putting in reps and learning after coming up short and then improving, what were your main selling points that allowed you to get some of those key early folks?

Starting point is 00:31:56 I think there was a genuineness. They can feel that in the room. There was an actual real care for who they were as individuals and as families. I just thought different. I led with education. I wasn't selling anything because I found out very early there's nothing to sell. You know, you can go in with your PowerPoint. You know, back in the day, we put the CD in and show all these other people that the company represented. But the reality was those people were never going to touch those people. And those people don't actually care about the people that's in this room.

Starting point is 00:32:24 So, you know, you're showing that as if it's all one family and it's not. And so I just really shine a light on that. And the people that gave me an opportunity, I did right by them, which got me the next opportunity. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify is the all-in-one commerce platform that powers millions of businesses worldwide, including me, including mine. What business, you might ask? Well, this year, one way I've scratched my own itch is by creating

Starting point is 00:33:01 Cockpunch Coffee. It's a long story. All proceeds on my end go to my foundation, Saisei Foundation, to fund research for mental health, etc. Anyway, we use Shopify for the online storefront, and my team raves about how simple and easy it is to use. Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. Doesn't matter if you're selling satin sheets from Shopify's in-person POS system or offering organic olive oil on Shopify's all-in-one e-commerce platform. However you interact with your customers, you're covered. Shopify powers

Starting point is 00:33:30 10% of all e-commerce in the United States. Plus, Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way if you have questions. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. So check it out. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify. That's S-H-O-P-I-F-Y, shopify.com slash Tim. One more time, all lowercase, shopify.com slash Tim. You said in a GQ interview, which had a great title, it's a Rich Paul Powerbroker of the year, that the biggest obstacle or one of the biggest obstacles for young players in learning how to become a pro or be a pro is establishing infrastructure. What do you mean by infrastructure? Most guys, that's athletes especially,

Starting point is 00:34:15 they've come from an environment to where everyone along the way has made it about them. And so if you have the mentality that it's only about me, then you're not going to value other people and what their capabilities are, what their expertise is. But if you're a walking corporation, we can't name one corporation that does not have infrastructure. Organization. They have an organizational chart. They have people that do certain things, and there's clarity within that infrastructure. But it comes with the costs. And so most athletes don't want to do what? They don't want to pay anybody to do anything because

Starting point is 00:34:50 along the way, everyone has did things for them for free, but it wasn't really for free. It was to be able to be standing there next to them at a time where there was actually something to gain. So I'll sacrifice this now, when you're an amateur, to be able to stand next to you to get some crumbs or whatever the case, when you become a pro. And whatever their aspirations were, if it was to hang out, the girls, to travel, whatever it is, the money, whatever it was, but you see what they did. Basically, you created something that ultimately became your own demise because upfront, you taught them wrong. You taught them, oh, I'm doing this out of love. I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. All to turn it around on them when they start making money and say,

Starting point is 00:35:41 remember when I did this or I did that? Well, that's not fair to the player. And it's also not fair to yourself. What the conversation should be like is, look, I understand you don't have the ability to pay for anything. And if you're a parent, I'm doing it out of love. I love you. You're my kid. But if you're somebody else, just be honest with it. Hey, look, I'm going to do all I can to help you get to where you need to go. Once you get there, if there's an opportunity for me, then I'm going to do all I can to position myself to where if you give me that opportunity, I can then be of value to you. Very simple. Yeah. When free isn't free, right? It's an unclear prepayment for things to come later. That's when it seems like things can get extremely messy. How do you help them when they, say, sign with you or even just start to develop a relationship

Starting point is 00:36:34 with you to take the first steps for building out infrastructure? What are some of the first steps that you might recommend? I would say checks and balances, really getting the proper financial team in place. And that's everybody from a CPA to the guy who manages your investment portfolio or the company that managed your investment portfolio. Really having somebody monitor that because that's a very fragile thing there. But at the same time, deciding what it is that you want. I like to live a certain way now that I understand better on how to live. And so if you are a single man with no family, do you really need a 20,000 square foot home? Probably not.

Starting point is 00:37:20 Right? You're not going to be home half the time. Do you really need to fly private? Probably not. So there's different ways to go about it. But what's most important? Should you hire a chef? Yes, you should. Should you take a shortcut on that? No, you shouldn't. Do you know the difference between a chef and a cook? You should find that out because this is very important. Your chef should then go and sit with your nutritionist on your team and figure out,

Starting point is 00:37:44 you should do all the testing, everything you need, because your body ultimately is the engine that keeps you running. That's how you make your money. What are some of the key ingredients for sort of emotional support and stability? I'm just imagining young athletes who are suddenly in the limelight. They have all the temptations. They have a lot of pressure. There must be, and I know a few professional athletes who've gone through these periods,

Starting point is 00:38:13 periods that are very challenging. And certainly after retirement or the end of their playing years, some very challenging times. What have you seen in terms of the best ways to support? That could be from your side. It could be other ingredients, player health on that side of the ledger. Nowadays, I think there needs to be someone that players need to talk to and be open-minded to having a therapist to get stuff off their chest because they deal with a lot. They deal with a

Starting point is 00:38:38 lot. I think it's also important for players to not feel entitled to do things. Oftentimes, they feel like they have to take on all of this onus to do something for other people, and that's not real. Because when it comes down to it, if you ask probably 80% of the players that aren't in the position they used to be in and ask them who can do for them, it's not going to be many, if any, for that matter. Meaning people who are willing to help them? Yeah, of course yeah and then how are they positioning themselves to where when the ball stops it's not about just having a ton

Starting point is 00:39:11 of money like how can i do something else how can i be perceived while playing as someone who can transition and do something else there's this idea that i made a lot of money i don't have to do nothing else well that's not true because you made a lot of money, I don't have to do nothing else. Well, that's not true because you made a lot of money, but you didn't diversify your portfolio. Unless your money is making money for you and you live a lifestyle in which your 8% or your 10% or whatever it is, return each year is able to pay your bills and your taxes on your home and stuff like that, then you got to go to work. You have to go to work. And it's a big difference when you've made $50 million this year and then next year you made nothing. It's just tough. Yeah. What do you say to the players when they

Starting point is 00:39:58 start to take on that onus you were mentioning? So people come to them and ask them for things. I'm sure it happens all the time from many different directions, from people they've met along the way, from new people. When you see someone who's about to take on too much or accept that, what does that conversation look like? They come to me with the conversation. It's very real. I don't really have a lot of gray in me. It's pretty black and white, even though I have on a gray Clutch Athletics hoodie. It's pretty black and white for me because that's how life is, right? Life is, there's no gray in it, man. It's outside of the days, 300 of the days in Cleveland, Ohio, that's gray, but there's no real gray in it, man.

Starting point is 00:40:39 I just want them to understand how important it is to get their ducks in a row at their youngest age, because that's when they make their money, at their youngest age. The average person makes their money between the age of 45 and 65. The average athlete makes their money between the age of 19 and 25, maybe 30 if they get that far. It's so hard. And then learning when to jump off that dream train, right? Yes, I know you thought you was going to be a Hall of Famer.

Starting point is 00:41:07 You thought you was going to be an all-NBA guy. You thought you was going to play 15 years in the league. But if you play two or three or five, save your money, do the things while playing to learn how this business actually operates and start to position yourself to where I can still be around the game in a different form. When you look at guys, there's a reason why top coaches aren't really ex-players or ex-star players. Let me say that, ex-star players, because they wasn't allowed to have the ego that most star players have. And so they actually become better coaches. When you look at a Ty Liu, when you look at a guy like Adrian Griffiths getting the opportunity now in Milwaukee,

Starting point is 00:41:50 well-deserved, overly deserved. When you look at guys like Quinn Snyder, who, you know, Quinn played ball. He was a good player. You know, he wasn't John Stockton, right? But he's a hell of a coach and he's going to make more money as a coach than he would as a player. T. Lou has already done it. Darvin Hamm's going to do it. When you really think about this, because I studied this stuff, a guy like Jamal Mosley, he tried to play ball and play ball a little bit, but whatever.

Starting point is 00:42:19 But as a coach, he's going to be what he paid his dues, went from development to this, to that, and just have the time. Give yourself time and be patient and do the little things necessary to continue to reposition yourself, and it's going to happen for you. And that can be a part of the ecosystem of sport, in any sport for that matter. So you mentioned ego, and I'd love to focus on this for a second because it seems like LeBron has never been known as someone who's ego-driven. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, of course,

Starting point is 00:42:58 but as someone that talented and that driven, obviously putting in intense amounts of work and dedication. One could imagine a world in which a person like that would be very ego-driven. And certainly, there are counterexamples. What do you think it is that has led him to be that way? Or is he just that way right out of the box? I think he's that way, but also, LeBron's from Akron, Ohio. If you've ever been to Akron, there's not much there. So there wasn't these things that allowed him to develop this ego per se. When you think about his friends, same guys he went to high school with,

Starting point is 00:43:38 same guys he go back with now. Yeah, he's LeBron, but they still talk crazy to him and they talk about things and they laugh and joke or whatever and fall out and get back together. That's just life. And then when you think about his business infrastructure, myself, Maverick, Randy, et cetera, we don't really care that he's LeBron per se. He values our opinion. We value him. If we have a discrepancy or disagreement of something, we're not going to hold our tongue because he's LeBron. And that's one aspect of it, but that's not even what's the most important. The most important thing in all of that though is he's not going to look at it as if he can overpower or just do something for the sake of doing it because he is LeBron. See, it takes two to tangle and that has helped him along the way. We all have

Starting point is 00:44:34 disagreements and meetings and so on and so forth. But one thing about him, he's ego-less enough to know when he should listen. And that's just showing people respect and believing in them. And so I think that's helped him tremendously. Now, we all have egos. Don't get me wrong. You have to have an ego to have confidence. But you're not invested in your ego.

Starting point is 00:45:02 You're not leading with the ego. You know when the ego is supposed to come out the room and when it's not. When he's at that, I still call it the Staples Center, he has an ego. He's LeBron James. That's his show. That's his stage. He's there to perform and put on a great show, sometimes too great of a show. If you ask me, I would like to be a little bit more precise with things.

Starting point is 00:45:21 And we debate about that as well. I'd like to talk about how you think about luck. So the name of your memoir is Lucky Me. Why Lucky Me? Why Lucky Me? Look, when you think about it, I grew up in my dad's store. I learned math through playing the numbers and selling beer, wine, cigarettes, et cetera, candy. I was extremely lucky to have that environment. I was extremely lucky to have a dad who believed in me enough to stress education and to teach me things that he knew I was going to need to be successful in life. Not successful for the moment, but successful for the duration. And success,

Starting point is 00:45:56 not necessarily meaning from a finance perspective, but just from a humanity perspective. Extremely lucky. I was extremely lucky to go through some of the things that I went through to help shape me and mold me to understand life's challenges and to be able to survive those thunderstorms emotionally and things like that to get out on the other side. And so in addition to Jay-Z's Lucky Me being my favorite record, there's a number of things I was extremely lucky for. I was able to make it out of an environment to where many didn't. And when I say they didn't, not because they're dead or in jail, but because mentally they just can't see past what's in front of them. And I'm extremely blessed

Starting point is 00:46:35 and lucky to be able to do so to the point to where it's gotten me this far. At the same time, it's a little sarcasm to it because I didn't have my mom. I didn't have many options. My entrepreneurial spirit led me down a road of what some would say was detriment and darkness. At the same time, I was able to persevere through it. And so there's a number of meanings in between it or amongst it, but ultimately, I felt that was the right title. It's a great title. And could you say a bit more about the sort of entrepreneurial impulse leading you into darkness, if I heard you correctly? Could you say a bit more about that chapter? Growing up, we had very little options. And if you had an entrepreneurial spirit, you only could be that entrepreneur through hustles. And that hustle could have been everything from selling jerseys to selling drugs, selling candy to selling inner tubes from a bike. Everything was a hustle. There was no real jobs. There was no real understanding of corporate

Starting point is 00:47:40 America. There was no opportunities and there was no examples, more importantly, to see someone go to work every day, get a raise, get promoted, then go from being promoted, get promoted again, and then become partner. And we didn't have these examples that I have today. So if we flashback, because it seems like, at least based on some of the notes I have in front of me, one of the through lines for you, one of the themes is possibly how you do one thing is how you do everything. And I wanted to ask about the creasing and ironing your jeans as a kid. Is that something that you did? And if so, why did you do that? My sister taught me how to iron my jeans first and foremost. And then once she taught me, it made me feel like I was an adult at a very young age.

Starting point is 00:48:28 And then I started to decide that there's a detail in it and ironing my jeans the way I did and having the creases line up. And then I perfected that. And then from there, I realized that, oh, I can iron really good. So I started to advertise my ability to earn. And so when I would go to my uncle's house or somebody's house and they get dressed to get ready to go to the bar, the club, they can't do two things at once. So I say, hey, I'll earn your clothes for you. And there's going to be a charge for that. And I made money earning clothes, no problem. And I think that the detail of it and my preciseness of it allowed them to trust me more. And the more they trusted me, the more I can charge. So now ironing jeans is one thing, but if I'm ironing silk pants or a silk shirt and I knew how to adjust the iron to wool and linen and so on and so forth, and I built a good business. I made money every which way like that. But then

Starting point is 00:49:26 me understanding that and willing and wanting to align those creases properly and take my time to do it and prepare as such with the iron and the water and light starch and things like that, that quote that you made, how you do one thing is how you do everything, that's at its foundation and your approach to it. Because whatever arena you're in, just your approach to that, that detail, staying that detail oriented will allow you to progress. So that's what that meant. Usually I wouldn't ask about something in the background, but I have to ask, what is the polar bear statue in the background behind you? Looks like a polar bear. Oh, yeah. That's just interior design.

Starting point is 00:50:15 Okay. I have a thing for polar bears. That's why I was asking. Yeah. But that's an Ernie Barnes behind me, that picture. Okay. Can you tell me more about the Ernie Barnes piece? You seem like somebody who chooses things. I mean, I imagine these things aren't just thrown in your house. No, no, they're placed, yeah, properly. But the Ernie Barnes painting, Ernie Barnes is a well-known black artist. He's most known for the cover of Marvin Gaye's album.

Starting point is 00:50:43 Yeah, I recognize the style. I've never seen that piece, but I recognize the style. The picture at the end of Good Times, that painting is called The Sugar Shack. Eddie Murphy actually owns the original one, from my understanding. And I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase this piece. This is called The Runway. Growing up, I watched Good Times a lot, didn't know anything about art, saw that picture the whole time. And then as I got more into art, I watched Good Times a lot, didn't know anything about art, saw that picture the whole time. And then as I got more into art, I started to learn different artists. And Ernie Barnes was somebody I wanted to make sure I had in my collection.

Starting point is 00:51:12 What is player empowerment? What does that mean? Player empowerment, I know that people use this a lot, but it's really player choice. I think that oftentimes people say, as player empowerment, you get confused with like, oh, a player can just do whatever they want. No, that's not the case. I think player empowerment comes through the lens of education, understanding that you do have a choice, flexibility, and just having a mindset that I don't necessarily have to play my career or put my career on the same track as somebody else's because that's what the media or anybody around my game would expect

Starting point is 00:51:58 me to do. And the example of that is Reggie Miller was a great player. He spent his whole time with the Indiana Pacers. Dirk Nowitzki was a great player. He spent his whole time with the Indiana Pacers. Dirk Nowitzki was a great player. He spent his whole time with the Mavericks. Kobe was a great player. He spent his whole time with the Lakers. But LeBron and KD are great players. They've been on several teams. That doesn't make them any lesser than a legend or icon as those other guys that's just named. But because these people get on these media platforms and try to create a narrative of what's right, what's wrong, and how something should go versus how it shouldn't. No, everybody's career and their journey is their journey. But I think it's a

Starting point is 00:52:37 misconception with player empowerment because it's not like they can write their own checks or they own the teams. So it's only so much power within that empowerment. But I think the empowerment is for players to empower other players to do as you feel necessary within the lines of your professional positioning and obviously your contract. But don't feel the need to have your journey look like someone else's. Yeah. Self-authoring. I mean, with choice and educated choice, like you mentioned, who were the most important influences in developing your confidence? Again, going back to my dad, first and foremost, my brother, even to this day, when I call my brother about something, he's like, and I'll be talking to him like, bro,

Starting point is 00:53:31 I'm thinking about doing this. And what do you think? I think it may work. He's like, bro, it's going to work. I've been telling you this since you was a kid. It's going to work. Don't even worry about it. This is his exact conversation. But outside of family, I've had a lot of people who are still confident in me. My Uncle Warren, when I played mini football, they would put the confidence in you. You may not like the words, but you know that they're still in the confidence in you. What kind of things might he say? How did he do that? I played quarterback when I was a mini league football player. And if I switched to receiver or safety, it would just, you know what you're supposed to do. You know how to do it. You

Starting point is 00:54:09 know we worked on it. You know we practiced on it. You can do it. And that was the mentality. And we had the expectation of when Belichick was leading the Patriots, when the Patriots were, if they didn't want to go to the Super Bowl, it was a failed season. That was our mini league team. If we did not go to the city championship, something was wrong. And so you go into practice with that understanding and that mentality and that expectation on you, that's what it was. And even when I was young, gambling, shooting dice, my dad would instill that confidence in me and look I've had some unbelievable comeback you think the Cavs came back from 3-1 you don't know what it's like to to have a hundred dollars and you're down to your last dollar and you 11 years old and

Starting point is 00:55:00 you got one dollar left and you turn that dollar into 200, you roar all the way back. It's like a, it's the, you know, it's, it's the redemption trail. It's an unbelievable feeling to do that. And I had plenty of nights like that, whether it was on the basketball court or whether it was at the dice game. And I think about those moments all the time. Those were some fun times, man. It really was. Yeah. Formative times. So why do a book? There's so much involved. You have to prioritize it. You have to promote it. Why do a book? What does it mean to you and what do you hope it will do in terms of impact for people who read it? I think a book brings a seriousness to it, right? Instead of just kind of doing a visual, I think when people really sit down and read a book, you can really dive into its chapters and read it again and go back. And so the book form was

Starting point is 00:55:58 important. The timing of it was important. Just, you know, you look at the state of the world. How our youth sees the world today, the different perceptions that people may feel like they have without being able to have someone hear them. And so I wanted to write a book to where I shared my experiences, I shared my journey, but also wanted to let people know that you're being heard. And not only are you being heard, you can be in a different place as long as you stay in the moment. I know it may seem dark and gray and bleak and challenging, but you tend to think that everyone's paying attention to you and what you got going on. And so you get discouraged, but in reality, they're not. Everyone has their own problems. So just get through yours, get through them, continue to

Starting point is 00:56:52 push, continue to persevere, and you can end up in a different spot. And I wanted to give kids that example and just people in general, regardless of race, regardless of gender, I just wanted to give you that example. And it was the right time for me because I'm at a place to where I'm honestly comfortable enough. And I feel like I've accomplished enough to allow people in. Because today people want to be Rich Paul. They want to do the things that I do. They want to be an agent because of me. And once I got to that point, I wanted to help them

Starting point is 00:57:26 understand who I really am and why I do the things I do, because it's very misleading to say, oh, this guy became a top agent. He'd done $4 billion in contracts and he didn't go to college. Well- There's more to it. Yeah. That's even a kid, like you're playing Mortal Kombat. It's like just sitting there Well, there's more to it. themselves in that same mirror and like, damn, I don't have to go out here and rob somebody. I don't have to go out here and kill somebody. I don't have to go out here and feel like I'm not being heard. He had the same problems I did. Wow, I see myself in that. And here's an example that I see every day. I can see him. I can touch him, whatever. I'm accessible to people. I like to talk to people when they see me out in the street. That was encouraging for me. What I didn't want to do is write a puff piece. And that's what I

Starting point is 00:58:28 said to my team. I said, if I do a book, it will not be a puff piece. I don't want to write a book on look what I did, look how much money I made. I don't need to do that. That could be the second book. That can't be the first book. The first book, people need to know who I am at my core, what I've been through. And it was therapeutic for me. And I'm glad I did it. It was something that I'm proud of. And hopefully, when people read the book, they feel inspired by it.

Starting point is 00:58:54 And the subtitle is great also. I mean, I love everything about it. Lucky Me, a memoir of changing the odds. And certainly, you've demonstrated that. And just a few closing questions for you. The first is, if you could put anything on a billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, just to get a message out to billions of people. Could be image, could be a quote, could be a word, could be something that's inspired you, anything at all. What might you put on that billboard? Do you have any ideas?

Starting point is 00:59:22 I would put kindness never hurts. Love is never wasted. Unity starts with you. Trust makes it possible. Community is a mentality. And honesty keeps it real. And I think you need all those things to change the way people are living today for the better. You need all those things to

Starting point is 00:59:49 help uplift somebody. You need all those things to unite and collaborate. And you need all those things to be clutch. Rich, I've really enjoyed spending time with you. People can find you on Instagram at Rich Paul, Twitter at Rich Paul 4, the number 4. And certainly they can find the new book, Lucky Me, A Memoir of Changing the Odds, everywhere fine books are sold. Is there anything else you'd like to say or anything you'd like to ask of my audience? Anything at all that you'd like to add before we wind up? First, I would like to say thank you for having me on. I know you're not into sports like that, but obviously, I'm doing something right to get your attention. So I'm happy for that. And to the audience, I just think you don't

Starting point is 01:00:31 have to be in sports. Don't feel like I have to be in sports to read this book. You don't even have to know how to spell sports per se. And I think that it's important to really care about what other people are going through, despite what society teaches us. I think it's important to really care about what other people are going through despite what society teaches us. I think it's important to really dive into other people's experiences because it allows you to try to have a better perspective and a better understanding of people. And so I'm glad to have matured to the point to where I can honestly say that because I grew up in an environment where we didn't care about nothing at all. Well, Rich, I can barely spell sports, but I can spell human and your story is intensely human. And I think it will resonate with a lot of readers and it's a hero's journey of changing the

Starting point is 01:01:21 odds. And I'm very excited to see what it'll do in the world. So Lucky Me, A Memoir of Changing the Odds. And I'm very excited to see what it'll do in the world. So Lucky Me, A Memoir of Changing the Odds is the book, everyone. So please check it out. And thank you so much for taking the time, Rich. This has been a lot of fun. And to everybody listening, we'll include links in the show notes as usual to everything at Tim.blogs.podcast. Until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others and to yourself. And thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter,

Starting point is 01:02:01 my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to

Starting point is 01:02:43 think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash Friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep is a premium mattress brand that provides tailored mattresses based on your sleep preferences. Their lineup includes 14 unique mattresses, including a collection of luxury models, a mattress for big and tall sleepers, We'll see you next time. Models with more responsive foam to cradle your body for essential support in stomach and back sleeping positions and on and on. They have you covered. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix sleep quiz at helixsleep.com slash Tim and find your perfect mattress in less than two minutes.

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Starting point is 01:05:52 time. I've been using it a very, very long time indeed. And I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? What is this stuff? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food source nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. Since 2010, they have improved the formula 52 times in pursuit of making the best foundational nutrition supplement possible using rigorous standards and high quality

Starting point is 01:06:32 ingredients. How many ingredients? 75. And you'd be hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multimineral superfood complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an antioxidant immune support formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens to help manage stress. Now, I do my best always to eat nutrient-dense meals. That is the basic, basic, basic, basic requirement, right? That is why things are called supplements. Of course, that's what I focus on, but it is not always possible. It is not always possible. It is not always

Starting point is 01:07:05 easy. So part of my routine is using AG1 daily. If I'm on the road, on the run, it just makes it easy to get a lot of nutrients at once and to sleep easy knowing that I am checking a lot of important boxes. So each morning, AG1. That's just like brushing my teeth, part of the routine. It's also NSF certified for sports so professional athletes trust it to be safe. And each pouch of AG one contains exactly what is on the label does not contain harmful levels of microbes or heavy metals and is free of 280 banned substances. It's the ultimate nutritional supplement in one easy scoop. So take ownership of your health and try AG one today. You will get a free

Starting point is 01:07:45 one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out. Go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkag1, the number one. drinkag1.com slash Tim. Last time, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Check it out.

The Tim Ferriss Show - #697: Rich Paul — The Power Broker and Superstar Agent Behind LeBron James, Draymond Green, and Others

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