The Tim Ferriss Show - #749: Michael Lewis and Martine Rothblatt

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Starting point is 00:03:22 slash Tim. Go to shopify.com slash Tim to take your business to the next level today. One more time, organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to sit down with world-class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives. This episode is a two-for-one, and that's

Starting point is 00:04:16 because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about, and passed 1 billion downloads. To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes. And internally, we've been calling these the super combo episodes because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle. Perhaps you missed an episode. Just trust me on this one. We went to great pains

Starting point is 00:05:01 to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests, you can find that and more at Tim.blog slash combo. And now, without further ado, please enjoy and thank you for listening. First up, Michael Lewis, the number one New York Times bestselling author of more than 15 books, including Moneyball, The Blind Side, and The Big Short, which were made into major motion pictures, and his latest, Going Infinite, which delves into the rise and fall of FTX and its founder, Sam Bankman Freed, a topic Michael also explores in depth in his critically acclaimed podcast, Against the Rules. You can learn more about Michael at michaellewiswrites.com.

Starting point is 00:05:54 I'm looking at a paragraph from brainpickings.org, which is run by Maria Popova, who I'm very fond of. And there's a piece on your writing process. She may have been quoting a different source, but I just want to read something quickly, and then we can discuss. These are your words. Before I wrote my first book in 1989, the sum total of my earnings as a writer over four years of freelancing was about $3,000. So it did appear to be financial suicide when I quit my job at Salomon Brothers, where I'd been working for a couple of years and where I'd just gotten a bonus of $225,000, which they'd promised they'd double the following year to take a $40,000 book advance for a book that took a year and a half to write.

Starting point is 00:06:34 Was that a hard decision, or was it something you'd just been biding your time for? You put it very well. It was something I'd been biding my time for. When I went into Solomon Brothers, I knew that this was a temp gig. I'd be there for a few years. And I was there more out of curiosity about how this world worked than I was to advance a career. In fact, aside from the money, which I liked, I didn't think really much about the career at Solomon Brothers because I knew I could only hang on, my interest would only last for so long. And I was intensely interested in it as I was learning about it. But when I kind of figured it all out and got a sense of how it all worked and there weren't any more questions I had that needed to be answered, I really started to get bored. But the whole time I was there, I was writing. I got myself

Starting point is 00:07:22 in trouble because I naturally tend to write kind of about what's around me. And so I started to write things about this great boom that was happening on Wall Street was really the beginning of what we still live with this notion of 22 or 23 year olds rolling on and making a fortune. The sums of money being made on Wall Street and the share of the economy it occupied was expanding rapidly. And no one quite understood why. So there was a natural market for me to sort of try to explain it. And I mentioned the Wall Street Journal asked me to write op-eds for them. I wrote an op-ed arguing that investment bankers were overpaid. And in the bottom of the op-ed, it said Michael Lewis is an associate with Solomon Brothers in London.

Starting point is 00:08:06 Oh, God. But, you know, I tell you, I must have like a blind streak, right? Because my reaction was, wow, great piece. You know, when they sent me the galleys or whatever it was, I said, this is fabulous. And I didn't even think, what are the people at Solomon Brothers going to think? Except maybe they're going to be thinking it's so cool that I wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal. I got to work the next day, and there's a fellow who ran all of Solomon Brothers International.

Starting point is 00:08:31 Delightful guy. He was the guy who had hired me in the first place. And he was ashen-faced sitting at my desk with this little newspaper on his lap. And he said, Michael, I mean, it was really not in anger. It was more in sadness. He said, Michael, you have no idea of the damage you've done.

Starting point is 00:08:47 And I was kind of like, what do you mean? He said, this thing is being picked up all over the United States, and we've had a crisis meeting overnight of the Salomon Brothers board, what to do about it. They couldn't or wouldn't have fired me because I had just flukily started to generate a whole lot of money for them, like a whole lot of money. I was essentially a salesperson. And I had at that point the second biggest money generating account in the entire firm. And the person would speak only to me,

Starting point is 00:09:18 even though I'd only been there a year and a half. It was basically the most sophisticated hedge fund sort of manager in Europe. And so they didn't want to fire me because they didn't want to lose him. He said to me, my boss said, what are we going to do about this? And I said, I don't really want to do anything about this. And he said, well, we need you to stop writing.

Starting point is 00:09:37 And I said, I'm not going to stop writing. It's what I love to do. And he had the bright idea. He said, could you write under a different name? And I said, no problem. I can do that. And he said, what name are you said, could you write under a different name? And I said, no problem. I can do that. And he said, what name are you going to use? Actually just popped into my head, I'll use my mother's maiden name. So I wrote under the name Diana Bleeker for maybe the next nine months or year, maybe not quite that long, but I wrote half a dozen pieces. They got

Starting point is 00:10:00 better and better. I was getting better and better because I had better and better editing. So Michael Kinsley, who was then editing The New Republic, had walked into my life. And he was teach-giving me writing lessons, basically, in the way he edited the pieces. But the pieces Diana Bleeker was writing, I mean, I really felt off the leash

Starting point is 00:10:18 because nobody could trace it back to me. I was almost describing the trading floor around me in pieces. And people were circulating. It was really great. I was sitting in London trading floor around me in pieces. And people were circulating. It was really great. I was sitting in London at my desk doing my business, and I would watch people Xeroxing articles I'd written in the New Republic under Diana Bleeker and pass them out on the trading floor. And so I had a sense that like, God, people are hungry for this. People are laughing. People were, it was just working. Now the money part of it, what happened was I came home one night to my house in London, picked up a phone call, and it was a man named

Starting point is 00:10:52 Ned Chase, who happens to be Chevy Chase's dad, who was a senior editor at Simon & Schuster. And he said, I figured out who Diana Bleeker was, and I got your number. I never found out how he did that. We think you should write a book. And at that point, I thought, I'm out. If someone will publish a book by me, I'm not hanging around the Wall Street firm any longer. I did hang around an extra three months to get my bonus. But the minute I saw the money hit the bank account and I knew they couldn't take it back, I left. And not because I, you know, disliked them. It was just, I loved a lot of the guys there. Mostly, it was almost all guys. I really liked my bosses, generally. I just was bored with the work and I had this other thing I love to do. You know, I had two conversations

Starting point is 00:11:36 in which people tried to say, oh, don't do that. Don't walk away from a sure fortune to go take a flyer on writing a book. One was my bosses who took me into a room. And this tells you just how innocent an age it was. I mean, these days you'd be in a room with lawyers, right? And you'd be told you signed this non-disclosure agreement and you're writing anything about anything. They didn't care about it. They were worried about my sanity.

Starting point is 00:12:10 They were actually worried about my sanity. They were actually worried about my career. They couldn't believe that I was going to walk away from this really cushy situation and go and do that other thing. So they were trying to help me. And I just said, you know, I got this feeling I got to do this. My father said, you know, you really could just wait. You really could just collect some millions of dollars and then write your books. But the problem was I was, what, 27 at the time? I looked ahead of me and I looked at people who were 35 or 37 and they seemed ancient and they seemed completely stuck. Like they made so much money and their lives had adapted to the making of money. They depended on the making of money. I just thought there's no way I'd spend a lot of time here and still even want to do this.

Starting point is 00:12:49 I'd be trapped, and I don't want to do that. So I ignored all that advice and just went and did it, and it worked out, you know? That was Liar's Poker. Liar's Poker, at least I've read, was intended to be a cautionary tale of sorts. It's not how everybody took it. I mean, it's a very exciting book.

Starting point is 00:13:07 The thing is, it's like a funny book. It was a funny story. It's a very, very funny book. And it's also an incredible story because you're seeing this transformation of this industry and the effect on all these young people. But I had only one kind of moralistic thought in mind when I wrote it, because I really just thought, my models that moralistic thought in mind when I wrote it, because I really

Starting point is 00:13:25 just thought my models that I had in my head when I wrote it were education of Henry Adams and Rousseau's Confessions. The model was just tell the world what happened exactly as you remember it, and that's enough. You don't need to layer on an interpretation of what happened. What happens, good enough. And the extent I wanted kind of to push the reader in any direction, it was just really young readers, like people in college, that I hoped would read it and would say, yeah, I now know what this is. Yeah, there's money there.

Starting point is 00:14:01 But a lot of it's kind of silly. And I have these other things I want to do with my life and I'm going to go do them. So I'm not going to be seduced by Goldman Sachs or have Goldman Sachs prey on my anxiety about my future when I'm walking out of my college. I'm going to go do what I'm meant to do. And I felt that way because I had watched classmates at Princeton just naturally drift into the arms of the investment banks because they felt they couldn't resist the money and they were anxious about not being successes. Then what happens is the book comes out

Starting point is 00:14:31 and the book makes it seem, because it was, as business goes, incredibly colorful and entertaining and lucrative. And I had dozens of letters a day from young readers saying, Dear Mr. Lewis, I really loved your how-to book about Wall Street, about how to make money on Wall Street, and I'm hoping that there's some tips in there that you didn't put in there that you could let me know so I have an edge.

Starting point is 00:14:57 It just fueled the desire of young people to want to do it more, and I didn't see that coming. And that's something, I don't know, anybody who writes books, I think, learns that you write a book, but the reader reads a book. And the reader may read a book that's entirely different from what you thought you wrote. And you can't really do that much about it. How do you think about, if you do, ambition? And this may not be a good question, but it seems like from what I've read, the overt ambition that kind of people wear on their shirt sleeves in certainly many parts of Wall Street, you find

Starting point is 00:15:32 off-putting or maybe in bad taste, but you certainly don't shy away from ambitious projects, right? How do you personally think about ambitious? And I don't want to put words in your mouth either. No, no. It's an interesting way to frame the question. How do I think about ambition? And I don't want to put words in your mouth either. No, no, it's an interesting way to frame the question. How do I think about ambition? Well, I could tell you I thought it was so comical that I was going to be in this ambitious money-making world that the week before I went to Salomon Brothers, I went into Paul Stewart, this men's store,

Starting point is 00:16:01 because I saw it through their window. I saw they had red suspenders with little gold dollar signs on them. And I thought, this is like a way to make fun of the whole thing. And nobody thought it was funny. Nobody thought it was like, you can't wear that shit around here until you, you can't wear that shit until you are a big enough deal to wear that shit. I've always been enormously ambitious in a way. I've always wanted my life to be great, like really great. I'm competitive, like very competitive. And I love competitive sports. I love winning. I don't particularly

Starting point is 00:16:32 like losing. I guess, number one, I don't accept money as an accurate measure or any kind of real measure of whether you're winning or losing. So money doesn't hold that, doesn't have that hold on me. Fame a bit more. I mean, I would say a lust for attention and fame is probably closer to a vice of mine than a lust for money and fortune. But even that I find I get tired of, and it doesn't interest me that much. I don't think I'm a maximizer in that I'm not trying to get a lot of a thing. It's more, if I'm trying to maximize anything, it's a feeling.

Starting point is 00:17:14 And it's a feeling that that was a kick-ass book. I can look at something and just say, that is a great piece of work. That feeling is what I'm kind of always gunning for, and it's a pretty private feeling. And I think over time, I mean, you must have found this too, that the response that I have to external validation has become muted and numbed. And when I got a glowing review for Liar's Poker, and it went to the top of the New York Times bestseller list, it was like dancing all over my kitchen. I mean, I was just happy as a clam. I couldn't believe that it was like I just

Starting point is 00:17:50 won the Super Bowl. And now I don't read the reviews. I sometimes forget whether a book is on the New York Times bestseller list or not. I'm not paying as much attention to it. It doesn't gratify me in the same way. But the gratification I get from looking at something that I think I've done that's really good is at least as great as it was back then. I think I'm tapping into that. I think I'm tapping into like the pleasure I got when I was just all by myself in a room laughing at my own jokes. It's sort of like maximizing self-satisfaction, which is maybe not the most attractive trait that my ambition is to maximize my self-satisfaction, which is maybe not the most attractive trait that my ambition is to maximize my self-satisfaction. Maybe that's my ambition. Let's jump into the process associated

Starting point is 00:18:35 with the maximizing the self-satisfaction. You mentioned laughing at your own jokes. I have read that you sometimes write late at night, say midnight. You put on a headset and play the same soundtrack of, say, 20 songs over and over again. Is that something that you still do? Yes. In fact, I did it yesterday. Kids screwed up my natural writing rhythm. My natural rhythm would be to kind of start about four in the afternoon and write till three in the morning and sleep until noon.

Starting point is 00:19:06 But you can't do that with kids. So I now, I'm not as likely to be found late at night at my desk, though it happens sometimes. But whenever I'm writing, I have headphones on and I have a soundtrack I write to. And the soundtrack changes. It changes book to book.

Starting point is 00:19:24 And it's got to the point where both my wife and my kids will recommend songs for the soundtrack for whatever the next project is. And I'll build a soundtrack intentionally. And the music is, you know, it's all over the map. It tends to be very up, but it tends to be music that I just stop hearing. And I noticed something really funny just the last couple of weeks because I'm working on something now, the second season of my podcast, where I have a different relation to music.

Starting point is 00:19:54 The podcast is about coaching, and the last episode, which I have still not written, it's the only episode I haven't written, is me getting coached in something I'm incredibly uncomfortable doing, and it's singing. I've been doing voice lessons an hour every day for the last three months. And there's a song I sing, and I'm not going to tell you which one it is, that I'm going to have to sing, that I've

Starting point is 00:20:15 been practicing, that happens to be on my soundtrack. And now I realize I have to remove it because it kicks my brain into a different space. All of a sudden, I hear it, and it's like Pavlovian. I've got to belt out the tune. I've got to worry about hitting a high note, and it screws up my writing. And so I've just been hitting skip because I've been reluctant to change it, but I'm just going to have to remove it. So the music puts me in, the purpose of it is to shut out the possibility of interruption. I can't hear knocks on the door, phones, people dropping packages on the front porch, anything. I'm just in my own space. And I kind of cease to hear the sound.

Starting point is 00:20:51 You mentioned Michael, was it Kinsley? Is that right? The editor? The editor of the New Republic. What made him a good editor, or what did you learn from him? Can you remember anything that he helped tighten or improve? So Michael Kinsley had a gift for creating writers. There are dozens of people who were young writers then who he had profound influence on and careers that he just launched. And it's

Starting point is 00:21:19 an odd assortment. And I was one of those people. I think what happens with writers who come up in a conventional way, like through creative writing programs or by writing for their circle of friends, is they get treated too politely. Their work gets treated too politely. So they don't hear a really withering critique of their work. And Michael Kinsley could not help himself. He delivered the most withering critiques of your work. And Michael Kinsley could not help himself. He delivered the most withering critiques of your work. The kind of throat-clearing, phony first paragraph, which was totally

Starting point is 00:21:51 unnecessary. It would come back, and it'd be just a big X through it. Why did you even write that? Start here. It would be, I can remember, I had learned a word that was just a completely obscure word. And I even remember the word, but I don't know how to pronounce it. It's Chthonian. It starts C-H. I think it means of the underworld. And I remember working it into the piece and like a big circle around it saying, you fucking phony. You know, what do you do? What'd you do? Go into the thesaurus? It was just like making merciless fun of me. My byline at the very beginning, I thought it sounded good. It was for it to be Michael M. Lewis. My middle name is Monroe.

Starting point is 00:22:32 I thought a middle initial kind of fancied it up. He put a big circle around it and said, don't do that. You know, don't be one of those people. You're not Michael M. Lewis. You're Michael Lewis. He was all the preposterous things that you naturally tend to do when you're putting, you know, words on paper. He identified all of them as vices and stopped you from them. And so, in addition, he was unbelievably gifted at saying what a good story was. You started to learn what was interesting and what wasn't just talking to him, just by how he responded to what you said. It was a kind of feedback that everybody should get, but that most people are too tender and

Starting point is 00:23:11 sensitive to deliver. It's a funny thing. I think that this happens in speech too. I think that there's lots of inefficiency in human conversation, that people do all kinds of things they really shouldn't do, and that other people make fun of them for doing. People are endlessly telling stories about what some other person said, making fun of them. And it shouldn't be that way. We should be very efficient conversationalists because we do it all the time,

Starting point is 00:23:34 but we aren't because we don't get feedback because people are too polite. And I think people are too polite with other people's writing. And what Michael Kinsley, his great gift, in addition to being a kind of genius, was he just couldn't be polite. He was just so blunt. I'm Michael Lewis on my books instead of Michael M. Lewis because of Michael Kinsley. I have a question for you about, maybe this isn't the right word, but productive laziness. I was looking at an article that talked about a speaking

Starting point is 00:24:02 gig from 2017, Qualtrics. you might know where this is going, but the quote that stuck out to me was attributed to you, people waste years of their lives not being willing to waste hours of their lives. And I don't know if that prompts any memories, but is that something you could elaborate on? Sure, that wasn't a quote for me, it was a quote from one of my characters,

Starting point is 00:24:21 Amos Tversky, he's one of the main characters in the Undoing Project. And it resonated with me. What he meant was that people don't back away from their work, and especially the need to always seem busy or be busy stops people from finding things that are really worth doing and sifting the ones that are worth doing from the ones that aren't worth doing. So it resonates with me because I am not a person who always has to be doing something. And in fact, my natural state is probably inert, that I can really just lay around and screw off and procrastinate with the best of them.

Starting point is 00:25:00 And it's partly because of how I grew up. I mean, I grew up in New Orleans, and there was not a whole lot of value attached to either ambition or career achievement. You were who you were because of how you were and who your family was and what neighborhood you grew up in and where you went to school. You were always so well-defined by your environment that trying to change it by doing stuff didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. And my father used to tell me, and it was, and I believed this until I was about 20, on our family coat of arms, there was a motto in Latin. And the motto was, do as little as possible and that unwillingly, for it is better to receive a slight reprimand

Starting point is 00:25:42 than to perform an arduous task. And he would just say that, like, just keep that in mind. We live by these words. And so that's my kind of where I was coming from just generally. And I found this thing that didn't feel like work. So it didn't feel like an attempt at achievement. Not that achievement was bad. It's just that's not why I was doing it.

Starting point is 00:26:10 But having said that, you know, I do find that being able to back away and get yourself, myself, in a state of mind in which I can say, it's okay if I never write anything else. It's okay if I never write another book. It's okay if I don't do anything for six months. And I can afford that now. And that's nice to be able, it's a luxury to be able to afford it. But I think a lot of people who can afford it don't actually take advantage of the luxury, because I think that doing that, putting yourself in a state of mind where, all right, I've got to make an argument about why I need to write another book, because I don't have to, changes your relationship to potential stories and potential material. It requires the material to rise to the level of interest where you feel obliged to engage with it. So you're not doing it just because you

Starting point is 00:26:52 got to write another book. You're doing it because how can I not write this? And it serves my own sloth and indolence, serves as a kind of filter. And the filter is, no, I don't have to do that, so I'm not going to do that. I don't particularly want to do that, so I'm just not going to do that. And even if you tell me that, oh, it's got big bestseller written all over it, I'm not interested because it keeps me off that path.

Starting point is 00:27:17 I think it's been very useful because it does two things at once. One is it raises the level of the bar that the material has to jump over to get to me. So the material is going to have to be really good if I'm going to engage with it. And two, it stops me from doing the same thing over and over again just to be successful.

Starting point is 00:27:37 It enables me to, almost encourages me to move around and do surprising things. And I think readers and audiences really appreciate and will engage with the writer who's willing to take risks. That, yeah, they like their writers, some of their writers to just keep doing the same things over and over again, but they'll follow you if you take a brave risk. Since I'm not doing it, I'm not trying to create the next surefire bestseller. I'm led to other and sometimes unlikely material. So the books end up being about a lot of different things.

Starting point is 00:28:14 What are some of the questions or thresholds that indicate the material has risen above the necessary hurdles? I found one question. I don't know if this is you or not, so feel free to confirm or deny, but would I be sad if this story didn't get told? Yeah, that's funny. That is one. It's a really good question because there's not a clear-cut rule that I follow except feeling. And there are a couple of feelings that I associate with the desire to write a book. One is a feeling that if I don't do it, it won't properly get done

Starting point is 00:28:53 because I have some privileged access to the story. And there are lots of different ways you can have privileged access to the story, but the sense that, yeah, this book really should be written and someone needs to do it, and that someone is clearly me. The second and related feeling is I have an obligation to the material. It isn't the material has an obligation to me as a writer. It's I have an obligation to this material. And once I have that feeling, I have a motive. I have a motive,

Starting point is 00:29:21 and whether I'm fooling myself or not, it's a motive that's a deeper and more inspiring motive than, oh, I got to make a living or, oh, I got to get a book on the bestseller list or, oh, I got to have something to tell my friends when they ask me, what are you doing? It's the highest motive. It's I have an obligation. I have a duty. And I've had that feeling with every book I've written. How it gets to that point, I mean, they take their different paths to that point. But it obviously is some feeling in myself that this is an important story. If you could put a message, a quote, a question, anything at all on a billboard, metaphorically speaking, that would reach billions of people. Does anything come to mind, non-commercial, that you might put on a billboard,

Starting point is 00:30:08 saying a mantra, something you remind yourself of, anything at all? It's going to sound trite, whatever I say. And let me just say that I live in the world's capital of bumper stickers. At Berkeley, California, there are more bumper stickers per automobile than anywhere else in the world.

Starting point is 00:30:25 It's been scientifically proven. You can walk down the street, and it's mostly political stuff, but it's just like people getting their point across in bumper stickers. And I have never had a bumper sticker on my car because it's not one thing I've ever wanted to say over and over forever. I'm not a bumper sticker or quote guy. However, if you say I got to put it up on a billboard, I would take the mantra of my high school baseball coach, one of the greatest men I've ever known, who is actually the subject of one of the podcast episodes. And he would just say it routinely, and he just kind of became part of you. He would say, don't be good, be great. And he'd say it to you as he handed you the ball to go out to pitch a game.

Starting point is 00:31:05 He'd say it to you when you were working out. And you just, having that in mind, it's the kind of thing I try to keep in mind when I'm working on something. Good is not okay. If you're going to do it, be great. Push yourself. And it's hard.

Starting point is 00:31:21 And, you know, don't just stop when it's good enough. That's what I would stick on a billboard. It's one of those things that's in the billboard of my mind. Don't be good, be great. I love it. That's Billy Fitzgerald. Billy Fitzgerald. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors,

Starting point is 00:31:42 and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement, and the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food source nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your

Starting point is 00:32:24 first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out. Go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkag1, the number one, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Last time, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Check it out. 1996, to save the life of one of her daughters. You can learn more about Dr. Rothblatt and the work of United Therapeutics at unither.com. Martin or Dr. Rothblatt, both, welcome to the show. Thank you for making the time. Thanks so much, Tim. Just Martin's fine. All right. And this interview, as my listeners might imagine, was challenging in the best way to prepare for because there are a million and one directions that we can go with just this bio alone, which is, of course, a snapshot, a distillation of much more that you have done. And I thought we could start in perhaps an unlikely place, and that is Alan Watts.

Starting point is 00:33:46 I have read that you are a fan of Alan Watts, and specifically the book, subtitled On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Really Are. Could you please explain, if that is true, why that is the case? Yes, thanks, Tim. Alan Watts has a really unique ability to see the dialectic aspect of everything in nature. By that, I mean that there's a kind of a yin-yang aspect to everything in nature. And he points out that, for example, you can't have a crest of a wave without the bottom of a wave. And it has helped me whenever I see things in life that seem negative to be able to look at it in another way and see the positive in it.

Starting point is 00:34:34 When were you first introduced to his work? How did that come about? I was first introduced to it through the literature of this philosophy called transhumanism, sort of the idea that people can transcend some biological human limitations. A friend of mine, Frank Sazanowski, who is the head of the National Organization on Rare Diseases, pointed me in the direction of some Jesuits. He himself is both a Jesuit and an FDA lawyer, but he pointed me in the direction of some Jesuits. He himself is both a Jesuit and an FDA lawyer, but he pointed me in the direction of some Jesuits, such as Teilhard du Chardon from France and other individuals here in the US. And then from those Jesuits, they referred to Alan Watts.

Starting point is 00:35:20 I'm not sure if he was actually a Jesuit, but he undertook some religious training both in China, I think, and in the U.S. He was a radio announcer for many years in San Francisco, I think during the 70s or 80s. I don't know if you remember, Tim, the film of a few years ago, Her, in which like a computer— I do. Yep. So I was watching that movie, which kind of is interesting to me because it epitomized or it visualized the concept of computers becoming sentient. And in the middle of that movie, there's a scene in which Alan Watts appears. And I stood up in the movie theater and I said, oh my God, Alan Watts. Did you ultimately find the presentation in that movie to be compelling as it relates to

Starting point is 00:36:10 sort of sentient intelligence? I did. I thought it was an accurate depiction of a likely way that sentience would begin to arise in our society, basically by being very, very useful to people, cleaning up their inboxes, stuff like that. This may be a good place, and we're going to be all over the place in non-linear fashion. Bina48, who or what is Bina48, if I'm pronouncing that correctly? Yep, you've got it perfectly. So Bina's the name of my partner, and we've been married for about 40 years. And when she was 48, we undertook a joint project to try to create a digital simulacra or a digital copy of her basic personality with a lot of her memories and thoughts. And we thought this would be a very nice project as a combination

Starting point is 00:37:01 of science and art to encourage young people, get them more excited about computer science and women in particular, girls in particular. So we contracted with a couple of companies who were experts in both the software engineering side and in the physical modeling of a face that moves exactly like a human face does. You might imagine there's this exhibit at Disney World, Disneyland of like Lincoln and whatnot, something like that, but more realistic. We built this project. And since that time, Bina48 has thrilled audiences all around the world. I'm sure she has inspired hundreds, if not thousands of girls to go into computer science.

Starting point is 00:37:46 And she continues to get better and better, more and more advanced software. I don't know if you have watched the series Black Mirror before, but I find some of their episodes to be very strong. And in one of them, a significant other is effectively resurrected by pulling data and patterns and therefore mannerisms and so on from effectively social media accounts. So pulling from the cloud and feeding into this simulacrum or model of someone who used to be or in this case still is. How far away do you think we are from being able to do something along those lines convincingly? Yes, Tim. So I am a fan of the Black Mirror series, and there are a few other somewhat similar series that are streaming now, Upload and whatnot. So it's an idea that's catching on. And even at a very basic level, social media firms like Twitter,

Starting point is 00:38:48 for example, and probably Facebook as well, offer an opportunity that after a person passes away, their account can remain active. And I believe in the case of Twitter can even continue tweeting in the way that you once tweeted. So I think this general idea is it's a trend. It's only going to grow more and more prevalent as software does a better and better job of copying the human personality. Sometime in this century, for sure, and maybe in just like two or three decades, I think that there will be a digital copy of a person, another word is like a digital doppelganger of a person, who will claim to be the original person. And they may make that claim before or after the person died. And then psychologists and lawyers

Starting point is 00:39:41 and theologians and philosophers will have to grapple with, is this just like a really super fancy digital photo album, or is this actually some form of digital sentience? When you were growing up, who were your role models or inspirations? Was there anyone in particular who stood out to you when you were in high school or at the very beginning, let's just call it freshman year, of your undergrad as icons worth emulating, or lesser known, role models worth emulating? Did anyone really stick out for you? I think that in terms of authors, I was very influenced by Robert Heinlein, the science fiction author.

Starting point is 00:40:25 Sure. Yeah, Stranger in a Strange Land and so on. Absolutely. It was so brilliant. And then a few years ago when his widow released the uncensored, unedited version of Stranger in a Strange Land, it's like three times larger and like no holds barred. I just savored every page of that. My favorite book of all of his is Time Enough for Love, in which he covers almost every topic under the sun. So Heinlein's characters were somewhat of role models for me, like Lazarus Long is a common character in some Heinlein books. In the public sphere, I was very much enamored with Robert Kennedy. His positive, progressive approach to the world was something that endeared me to him,

Starting point is 00:41:15 so I looked up to him. Those are a couple of the role models that I had at that time. You seem to be good at many things, of course, just based on the bio alone. But what strikes me is how quickly you were able to develop expertise in new fields. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to bring up what was mentioned at the very beginning of your bio, and that is United Therapeutics, a biotechnology company. She started to save the life of one of her daughters. I'd love for you to provide some context for this and tell a bit of the story, just because people will want to hear it. And then the follow-up, just to plant the seed for it, is how you learned biology. Because my understanding is you

Starting point is 00:42:07 didn't have much in terms of background in biology. That's a huge mouthful of a question, but if you could give us a bit of the background, that would be extremely helpful, and we can use that as a jumping off point. Sure. So it's kind of funny that you can go all the way through undergraduate at a great place like UCLA and never be required to take a life science course, but that was the case. So the last biology class I had was in high school. And here, suddenly I was faced with a situation as an adult while running SiriusXM that our youngest daughter is diagnosed with a fatal illness. She can't even walk up a couple of stairs to the front door, and there are no medicines approved for it. I finally got her to the best doctor one could find, the head of pediatric cardiology at Children's National

Starting point is 00:43:06 Medical Center in the middle of Washington, D.C. And the doctor said, you know, this is an extremely rare disease. No one knows why it arises. All the patients die within two to three years. He had only seen two or three other kids with it, and they both died. And all you can do is hope for a lung transplant. So, Tim, I was completely crushed. I just saw black. I didn't know what to do. And the only thing I could think of doing while she was in the intensive care ward night after night, and myself and Bina would tag team staying there with her, was once she fell asleep to go down into the library and to just begin learning about what was this illness she had, which they told me was called pulmonary arterial hypertension, and why were there no treatments available for it.

Starting point is 00:44:00 So I just began reading and reading and reading. Most of the time I read things, I didn't understand what they were talking about because there were these long medical words and chemical words that I never learned in law school or we never had to deal with in electrical engineering. But of course, there were dictionaries and I looked up the words in a dictionary. And they had college-level anatomy textbooks. So what I didn't know, I just kept going backwards in academia, I guess you would say backwards in learning or pedagogia, until I would even get to a high school-level textbook that would explain something. And I said, okay, I get that. And I kept taking notes and just educated myself night after night until I learned everything I needed to know. were chatting about before recording. There's a lot of luck involved, and it doesn't mean that your path is replicable by any set of parents who are caught in a tragic situation similar to what

Starting point is 00:45:12 you experienced. But nonetheless, you were able to ultimately track down, I suppose it's fair to say, a molecule, a drug of some type. Would you mind describing for listeners the process then of attempting to secure the ability to utilize in any fashion this drug or to license it? If you could describe that, I have a number of questions that will stem off of it. There are a gazillion articles published on every type of medical research you could imagine. I mean, it's just a bottomless well. There are literally hundreds of different types of medical journals. Each of those journals have, you know, every year thousands of articles published across

Starting point is 00:46:00 them. So it's difficult to find the information that you need. But in law school, we learn a very useful skill. This skill goes by the name of shepherdizing after this type of index that they have in law school called shepherds. So what shepherdizing involves is when a judge writes a decision, like the Supreme Court issues a decision, they drop a lot of footnotes. And of course, one thing lawyers love to do is make footnotes and references. And then what you're supposed to do as a good lawyer is to look up all of the footnotes

Starting point is 00:46:37 and the references that that Supreme Court or lower court case referred to. And then the shepherdizing process is after you get all of those references to then look up all of the references in those other articles. And ultimately, you get to a point of diminishing returns where three, four, five levels down, the references are all circling back around on themselves. So I applied that shepherdizing process to these medical articles. And somewhat like doctors, whenever a researcher publishes an article, they make footnotes and citations to other people's research who they relied upon. So I would get all of those articles and read those.

Starting point is 00:47:22 And then I would follow up on all of the references in those. Finally, I read about a molecule that a researcher at GlaxoWelcome had written in which they described testing this molecule for congestive heart failure, and it failed in its test of congestive heart failure. It did not work. But in the article, they had charts of what the molecule did. And the one thing that the molecule did that grabbed my attention was that it reduced the pressure between the lung and the heart, which is called the pulmonary artery. It reduced the pulmonary artery pressure while leaving the pressures in all of the rest of the body perfectly fine. Well, that's exactly the problem with pulmonary arterial hypertension, the people who have this disease. I'll make a quick footnote that when my daughter was diagnosed,

Starting point is 00:48:19 2,000 people in the U.S. had disease. Because medicines have become so much better and because we've been able to, like you mentioned in the introduction, get all of these approvals, there are now 50,000 people in America alone living with it. So it's likely that people listening to your podcast will know somebody or another

Starting point is 00:48:40 who has pulmonary arterial hypertension. And I read this article and I said, wow, just when I need this tiny stretch of artery, just between the heart and the lungs, this molecule somehow talks to that tiny stretch of artery and leaves the whole rest of the body alone. That was the holy grail that I was looking for. So I looked at where the author of the article was from. He was from GlaxoWelcome in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina. And I made a beeline down to him and asked him if he could develop this molecule that he'd found for my daughter's disease.

Starting point is 00:49:18 Was it an immediate handing over of the keys to the kingdom? A big all caps yes? No, it was actually a big all caps no. Unfortunately, the individual who had written the article had actually retired a few months earlier, and the person that I ended up meeting with who was in charge of research and development said that this was just one article. It was an incidental finding. In any event, this disease afflicted so few people, it was completely unrealistic to expect GlaxoWelcome to develop this molecule for my daughter and other people with that disease. And I asked him, his name's Bob Bell. He's now a venture capitalist and very successful gentleman. I asked Dr. Bell, I said, what would it take for you to develop this medicine? He said,

Starting point is 00:50:12 well, it probably would take, you couldn't do it. We only develop medicines if they have more than a billion dollars a year in revenue potential. He said, but it's possible you could buy it from us if you had a real pharmaceutical company with real pharmaceutical expertise. I could then introduce you to the business development people at GlaxoWelcome. So over the course of the next several months, I created a brand new biotechnology company. I was able to have a Nobel laureate who was formerly associated with Glaxo Wellcome become head of a scientific advisory board. And I re-approached Glaxo Wellcome and I said, I have all the things that you asked for. Can you sell me this drug and we'll develop it ourselves? Well, Tim, it turns out that everybody I asked said, well, you have to get somebody else in

Starting point is 00:51:05 the company to agree. And that's how it is in a big bureaucracy. It turned out that we had to have 15 different executives sign the same piece of paper to agree to license this drug to me. Finally, it happened. And all they wanted really was $25,000 and a promise of 10% of any money that I would ever get from this molecule. I think they agreed to that only because I kept bugging them. I was in their face all the time. Also, because I believe a serendipitous factor was that Dr. Bell's sister had contracted a form of pulmonary hypertension from the time I first

Starting point is 00:51:46 met him toward the end of this process. And he became a product champion for me within GlaxoWelcome. I mean, that was just purest luck or serendipity, whatever you want to say. And then they really didn't think this molecule had any chance at all. And they were really just doing it to get rid of me, I think. But still, all 15 people had to sign it. After we successfully developed this molecule, we have over time paid more than a billion dollars just in royalties to GlaxoWelcome because that molecule has saved thousands of people's lives. It has produced a billion dollars a year in revenue year after year after year for us. And Bob Bell, when I invited him to our 15th anniversary,

Starting point is 00:52:33 and he came with his sister who is still alive and on our medicine, and he said this was the absolute best transaction that GlaxoWelcome had ever done. So in hindsight, what did they miss? What accidentally got deleted from the spreadsheet? Or what assumption or assumptions were incorrect that they missed this opportunity so completely? I think there were probably like maybe three main ones. The first one, and I can say this kind of from firsthand knowledge since I am now the head of a pharmaceutical company, the odds of any molecule actually working in the human body are less than one in a hundred. I mean, the human body is so complicated.

Starting point is 00:53:19 It's like a massive set of very precisely keyed locks. And every molecule is like a random key. And the chance that you would have a molecule that opened a lock that fixed some dysfunction in the body rather than causing some harm to the body is less than 1 in 100. So first of all, they figured the chance of this thing working just in general was less than 100. Secondly, they thought to themselves, even if it worked a little bit, there's only 2,000 people in the whole country with this disease. They didn't really think that if it worked really well, the number of people would keep accumulating. I see what you're saying. If you have these people who would have died otherwise not dying, then that treatment

Starting point is 00:54:05 cohort is just going to grow and grow and grow. Is that what you mean? Exactly. I thought about it like I was getting subscribers at SiriusXM. People said to me, oh, Martin, you'll be lucky to have 100,000 subscribers. I said, well, if I keep them, and I get another 100,000 the next year, then I'll be up to $200,000. And then maybe $400,000, $800,000. Now we have $30 million. They didn't think in that subscriber mindset. That was the second problem. The third problem is that they didn't really imagine that the healthcare system would pay

Starting point is 00:54:40 something like $100,000 per year for this medicine. And at the time, this was in the early to about 20 years ago, early 2000s. I think like the average price for an expensive medicine was perhaps $10,000 a year for a patient or $10,000 for a course of treatment. Because of advances in things like precision medicine and gene therapy, there are many, many medicines now that cost over $100,000 a year, mostly for rare diseases. And the healthcare system pays for them because so few people have these diseases that even though the medicines are expensive, it's a drop in the bucket compared to diseases like hypertension or common illnesses, asthma, that afflict tens of millions of people. So the healthcare system doesn't really mind

Starting point is 00:55:34 paying a lot of money if it's a rare disease. And the people at GlaxoWelcome were clueless about this. They were actually looking for the big billion-dollar blockbusters, not for the rare diseases. So those were their three omissions. They failed to be Alan Watsian. They failed to see that because something is big underneath, that means that there's something else that's small. And that was what Alan Watts would always say. He says, something is good only because something else is bad. At the very least, I mean, it's a valuable thought exercise when you're looking at the assumptions that you're making. And what an incredible story. You mentioned Sirius. We haven't spent any time on Sirius just yet. When did you first fall in love or become intoxicated or enchanted by satellite systems or electrical engineering,

Starting point is 00:56:28 I suppose, but you can take whichever one is more interesting to tackle. You're absolutely right that I fell in love and I was intoxicated by satellite communications. It seemed to me kind of magical that we can put a machine way out in space and that the machine can do amazing things across the whole face of the planet. My first real moment of first love, if you will, was at a remote NASA tracking station in the Indian Ocean. And I had left UCLA to travel around the world, really hitchhike around the world. And I found myself in the Indian Ocean on a set of islands called the Seychelles. And on these islands at the top of the mountain in the middle of the main island, there was a NASA tracking station.

Starting point is 00:57:17 And I went up into it and I was probably a pretty grungy 19-year-old at that point in time. But the engineers inside there were kind and patient with me, and they explained to me how their satellite antennas were communicating with satellites in all different orbits around the Earth and even all the way out to Jupiter. And I asked them, I said, would it be possible for somebody to put a satellite up there and have it broadcast information back to the entire Earth? And they said, if you made a powerful enough satellite, then the receiving equipment on Earth could be so small that you could hold it in the palm of your hand. And I could have kissed the guy. I just said, wow, that's the purpose of my life. And I made a beeline back to UCLA. I changed my major to communication studies. I did an

Starting point is 00:58:14 undergraduate thesis on direct broadcast satellites. I did a joint JD-MBA degree where I published multiple articles on satellite communications. I worked at Hughes Aircraft Company, which was a big manufacturer of satellites back then and helped design a satellite to cover South America. And then ultimately went out on my own with my dream goal, which was SiriusXM. What did it feel like, if you can remember, to have that answer given to you, or that direction, rather, given to you, the purpose given to you, did it feel a certain way, that type of conviction or that type of belief? What do you recall?

Starting point is 00:58:57 Yeah, Tim, it's the best feeling. It's the best feeling. And actually, I don't think it really has anything to do with age. I felt like the same kind of feeling when I was driving one of the first Teslas, and I was looking at the manual, and I saw how much electrical power it output. And there's a very simple correlation between horsepower and electrical power, between kilowatts and horsepower. It's almost one-to-one, not exactly. And I was already a helicopter pilot, and helicopter engines are always quoted in terms of their horsepower. So right away, I said, wow, this car has enough power to actually lift a

Starting point is 00:59:39 helicopter. I had that same kind of, this is the purpose of my life, is to make an electric helicopter. So you can get this kind of excitement at any point in life. I think probably the best way to describe a 10 would be like a lightning bolt to your soul. You know, I was asking about biology earlier, but I would be very curious, since you mentioned also that there were no, well, the requirements as such in undergrad did require you to take any additional biology classes. If you were trying to teach, let's just say, a class, and you could pick the age or it could be a set of classes, scientific literacy, being able to have enough basic fluency to provide more surface area for those lightning bolts, if that makes any sense,

Starting point is 01:00:27 right? When you're looking at a manual or having a conversation with an engineer or reading a scientific study. Do you have any thoughts on how we could cultivate more scientific literacy, if that's the right phrase to use? Yeah, I think that's a great phrase to use. I think what's necessary is that you have to relate science to people's everyday lives. And one of the greatest people at doing this, and to go back to the beginning of the interview when you asked me who was a role model for me, I should have said Carl Sagan

Starting point is 01:01:02 was like an amazing, amazing role model to me. I watched the Cosmos series over and over again. And Carl Sagan was a genius at being able to take scientific concepts and relate them to people's everyday life. And if you remember from watching those series, the iconic image of him taking a dandelion and blowing it and describing that this is how a star spreads out its gas throughout the galaxy, those type of step-by-step instructions, ladders to get from one place to another, is the way I think to build scientific literacy. And I would ask my

Starting point is 01:01:46 students to think about anything that's important in their life, whatever it might be. And from whatever they said was important to their life, I would then begin wrapping that in kind of layers and layers of basic scientific concepts that pertain to what was important to them. Are there any, not science fiction authors per se, but science authors or elucidators of science who have written anything that would be appropriate for a lay audience? If someone is listening and they see their blind spots, which I know by definition is kind of impossible, but if they recognize they don't have enough scientific fluency or as much as they would like, but they want to try to cultivate that, do you have any recommendations for them?

Starting point is 01:02:31 There's a lot of books like that. One of my favorites is a book by a historian of science named Thomas Kuhn. He was one of the most famous historians of science, and his book is perennially in print. It's called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. In this book, he goes through about 10 different revolutions in science, where everybody thought the world was one way, and then kind of like a crazy person would say, no, I think it's like a different way, and gradually set about proving it's a different way and created a revolution in science. And he explains this in very lay terms. He takes you through the science of gravity, for example, with Isaac Newton,

Starting point is 01:03:26 science of relativity with Einstein, electricity with Maxwell, and so on, in a very step-by-step fashion to make the science accessible. And in the way, his main point in writing this book is to teach people critical thinking, to teach people to question authority. Ultimately, all science is about is just saying, why? Why? Like every two, three, four-year-old kid knows how to do that, right? Why? Why? Why? And I think Thomas Kuhn does a great job of that in his book. I should also point out, and please feel free to correct me if I'm oversimplifying, but the why, why, why is not just for four-year-olds. It's not just for scientists in lab coats or whatever people envision scientists to be. It's also extremely helpful in situations like

Starting point is 01:04:21 those you found yourself in with GlaxoWelcome and attempting to license. I mean, constantly pushing for explanation and clicking on those footnotes to go to the footnotes to ultimately get to some point of leverage where you can move things around. It seems like it's also not just an intensely interesting and academically rewarding approach to thought, but an immensely practical approach to life. At least that's how it seems from reading so many of your stories. neurons are lighting up in your brain, and it's lighting up the pleasure centers too. So I really believe that there's nothing more exciting than having a realization about something, coming to an inspiration about something, which is why books and reading are so magical. Another science fiction writer who I feel does such a great job of explaining concepts that can inspire people is Octavia Butler. She wrote a lot of books. One of them very well known is Parable of the Sower, Parable of the Talents. And in these books, she gives people an appreciation of questioning authority. So I'm not sure what it was that my parents did. I don't really remember them specifically encouraging my questioning of them. In fact, I do remember my father discouraging

Starting point is 01:05:52 it. But nevertheless, what happened to me was I absorbed the American culture. And the American culture is a culture of questioning authority. I recently heard one of the latest interviews with Tony Fauci when people were asking him, why is it that Americans won't do these basic public health steps to stop the pandemic? And he said, you know, American culture does not like to be told what to do. American culture is dyed-in-the-wool question authority. You'd be hard-pressed to find another country where it would be more difficult to get people to follow a single rule for everybody than the United States. So it's that American cultural ethic of questioning authority that I know is deep in my mental DNA.

Starting point is 01:06:52 So we were chatting just a few minutes ago about realizations, inspiration. I'd like to ask if we flashback to, well, we could flashback to any point in time that you choose, really. How did you relate to or think about gender in your youth? And you can choose what youth means. And I guess I'm wondering if there were any flashes of realization, or if you came sort of pre-installed with a certain orientation or way of thinking about it or feeling about it. Whatever you could say to speak to your experience of gender when you were younger, I would love to hear it. Sure. So it is related to this question of authority, Tim. Around teenage years, I had a constant vision of myself, not as a male, but as a female. And of course, I said to myself,

Starting point is 01:07:47 WTF? Why am I thinking like this? I can't imagine anybody else is thinking like this. But nevertheless, the thoughts were real, and the feelings were real, and the feelings were visceral. Could you describe the feelings? Because I think I'm certainly very interested in what form that takes. Is it a discomfort of some type? Is it a longing? How did it feel for you? So first I should say that I think the transgender feeling is different for every single transgender person. And talking about my feelings, I don't want to give the impression that these are going to be the feelings of other transgendered people because as a community, we're as heterogeneous as anybody else. So for me, it was really a matter of just visualizing myself in a female form.

Starting point is 01:08:41 And there was not any dislike of my male form. Again, it was kind of very Alan Wattsian in that I saw myself as male only because the opposite of male was female. So I can also see myself as female. And this was the way my mind was working. And when I say I saw myself, it was just kind of like a physiologic embodiment. Obviously, I knew like boys and girls and men and women's bodies were different. So I was stuck with this visualization of myself as a woman, wherein I was very much trapped in a male body. It was the prevailing view that this was a completely unacceptable way to be. So the authority was, no, this is not possible.

Starting point is 01:09:30 People are only male or female, and never the twain shall meet. So again, this American, Paul Revere-ish question authority mindset got me reading. And I found once again that there was a vast literature on transgenderism, transsexualism, Native American people who were two-spirited, communities in India and other parts of Asia that identified as neither male nor female. So even though this was never something I learned in junior high or high school or elementary school or really anywhere in American culture in, say, the 1990s, I learned through books that humanity was not either strictly male or strictly female. And as I began to question authority, I began to say to myself, why can't I also come out as not strictly male

Starting point is 01:10:26 and not strictly female? When I think a lot of listeners hear the words male and female, they think of the physiological differences that you might put side by side looking at physical characteristics. When you say not totally male or female or not cleanly bifurcated into solely those two categories, do you mean to say masculine and feminine traits are just a short hop, skip, and a jump from masculine and feminine apparel, depending on how people dress. They're a short hop, skip, and a jump from masculine and feminine hairstyles in an age, that was the time of Prince and Boy George and whatnot. And then you get to masculine and feminine manicures, like why can't a guy paint his nails? And then you get to next questions of secondary and primary sex organs and some people wishing to take hormones to alter their actual physiology and ultimately go through surgery to alter their physiology. And I found that there was actually like a vast literature following,

Starting point is 01:11:53 again, footnotes to footnotes, references to references. I was like, oh my God, it is possible to in fact alter your physiology to match your psychology. What appear to be the most intelligent researchers in this area are opining that this is a safe and healthy thing to do for people who feel that they are kind of, quote-unquote, trapped in the wrong body. From, say, zero to 100%, how well do you feel you have your physiology matching your own psychology at the moment? 100%. 100%. 100%. What were the biggest or the most important decisions, actions that you took? Did any surprise you to have a disproportionate effect on increasing that

Starting point is 01:12:46 percentage? Nope. I think that every part of the transition process kind of fell in place. It was not something that happens on a day. It's kind of, you get to a point of diminishing returns. So over a period of years, I gradually transitioned. And I think even to this point, I'm still in a transition process. I kind of went from a pure male to a more, I would say not pure, but I would say, you know, knocking on the female door to a point today where I feel very comfortable identifying as trans binary, meaning that I embrace both the masculine and feminine aspects of myself completely. Looking at the introduction, which I read at the top of the show, so to speak, there is a line about leading efforts of the transgender community to establish

Starting point is 01:13:40 their own health law standards and of the International Bar Association to protect, and this is the part I want to ask you to elaborate on, autonomy rights and genetic information via an international treaty. What are autonomy rights and genetic information? Sure. So autonomy, it's just a fancy word for saying that people should be able to make up their own mind, that people should have the power, the authority, the freedom to decide what to do with their own body. And genetic rights, of course, refers to the human genome, the DNA that we all have. Now, there is a tremendous diversity of human genomes out there. There are people who, because of their DNA, they are pretty much immune to some kind of

Starting point is 01:14:27 cancers, whereas other people, because of their DNA, it's very likely that they'll get those type of cancers. There are some people, because of their DNA, they almost cannot feel pain. They have an extremely high tolerance for pain. There are other people, because of their DNA, that the slightest pinprick, you know, will send them screaming. So once Craig Venter and Francis Collins led the effort to decode the human genome, and about the year 2000, all types of pharmaceutical companies and academic researchers began scouring the world to engage in what's called genetic mining or genome mining, meaning going to different populations of people around the world, often that have been intermarried for quite a while. So their genomes are kind of concentrated

Starting point is 01:15:19 and trying to learn something from those communities' DNA that can then be translated into useful pharmaceuticals to help everybody else have some of the strengths or less of the weaknesses of those isolated populations. What I was concerned with is that if people extract the DNA from these remote communities, that they in fact do so only with the consent of those communities or with the consent of the elected representatives of those communities so that they can have some fair financial return for their natural endowment. I see. So it's similar in a sense to preventing, say, biopiracy from the Amazon, where you have these tribes who are not providing their own human genetic information, but are,

Starting point is 01:16:12 say, acting as a wellspring of ethnobotany and providing source materials for creating pharmaceuticals. And you would want there to be some recompense to those groups. Translating that into your own sort of endogenous genetics would be what you're referring to. That's fascinating. Never even thought about that. Are there any examples you could give of these sort of tightly knit clusters, maybe the clusters is too small a word, of people who are being studied for this reason for medicinal purposes? There are actually many, many dozens, and there are quite a few companies who specialize in this type of area. The population that comes top of mind to me, Tim, right now, because it's such a fascinating story and it relates to my own activities in organ manufacturing, is a community of people living in Ecuador and Peru, very close-knit, intermarried, that are all a kind of dwarfism. And these individuals, they rarely grow taller than four feet tall. And it was discovered just over the past 15, 20 years, that they are descendants of Jews from 2,000 years ago

Starting point is 01:17:28 who were forced into a diaspora across the Mediterranean after the Roman occupation of Palestine. And in that ancient time, these people were a very small stature, but it was just part of the human diversity. They ended up as a group mostly ending up in Spain. And then when the Inquisition took hold, their descendants, who were still very small, they left Spain, they went to the New World. And because the Inquisition still had some type of a hand in the larger population centers of what's now Peru and Ecuador. They went out into the rural areas, and there they lived for several hundred years. And it turns out that this population, they have one gene that makes their body not receptive to growth hormone. All of us, naturally,

Starting point is 01:18:19 we produce a growth hormone, and the cells of our bodies have a receptor for that growth hormone. And when the growth hormone locks into the receptor, we begin growing. This population of people in Peru and Ecuador, they lack the growth hormone. That gene fell off like 2000 years ago and they kept passing it on and on, not much growth hormone receptor. So they're perfectly intelligent. They live normal lives. They just don't grow very large. So I found this population fascinating because in my company, United Therapeutics, we're trying to create an unlimited supply of transplantable organs. And one of the ways we do this is by modifying the genome of the pig. And it's kind of like a fluke of nature, Tim, that the pig's organs, their heart, their kidneys, their lungs are very much the same size and functionality as human kidneys, hearts,

Starting point is 01:19:15 and lungs. The only problem is that if you leave a pig on its own, they'll actually grow extremely large. And when these first transplants were done, they had to euthanize the animal recipients of the transplants because the organs from the pig had grown too large. So what we did is we took a page from this population of people in Peru and Ecuador. Western medicine gives them a disease name. It's called Laron's disease, L-A-R-O-N, after this Israeli scientist who discovered what was going on here. So we said, well,

Starting point is 01:19:54 why don't we modify a growth hormone receptor knockout, just like the Laron's population has, into these pigs? So when we transplant the kidneys of these pigs into people, the kidneys won't keep growing and growing as a normal pig can be many hundreds of pounds. Instead, the kidney will just stop growing at the same size as when we transplanted it. And that's working out really well. Let's talk more about organ manufacturing. What are some of the other precursors or requirements for having a sufficient supply of organs to meet whatever demands there are in the U.S. or in the world today? The demands, whether it's in the U.S. or outside the U.S., are huge and are way,

Starting point is 01:20:43 way in excess of the supply. I would say that one of the greatest unmet medical needs today is an adequate supply of transplantable organs. It's a beautiful thing that, you know, before people like Tom Starzl questioned authority and said it was possible to do an organ transplant, In our parents' teenage years and adult years, that would have just been like crazy stuff. Like you take an organ from a dead person, you put it in a live person who has a bad organ and the person comes back to health.

Starting point is 01:21:15 That's about as crazy as it gets, but they did it. You know, they did it. And now standing on their shoulders, we have hundreds of thousands of people clamoring for these organs, yet each year there are only about 30,000 kidneys available for transplant, only around 3,000 hearts, only around 2,000 lungs. And so the gap between the need for these organs and the supply is humongous. Are you still, or I should say United Therapeutics,

Starting point is 01:21:45 currently trying to manipulate the vagus nerve? Is that in process? Yes, that is in process, and it's a fascinating area, Tim. We are very fortunate to work with the father of bioelectronic medicine, Dr. Kevin Tracy. He's the chief medical officer at the Northwell Medical Complex up in the New York area. And by the way, that reminds me, speaking of how can lay people get access to scientific knowledge easily, subscribe to Scientific American. I'm

Starting point is 01:22:20 sorry to put an advertisement in here. But I find Scientific American and National Geographic two of the greatest ways for lay people, which I do consider myself a lay person, to learn about all different types of science that they might not know anything about. So one day I got my Scientific American in the mail and on the cover, it was using electronics to cure diseases. Well, here I am. My whole career has just been electronic engineering, building satellites, and now, because of my daughter, I'm in this medical field, so I'm so excited. It was one of those lightning bolts to the soul. Now I have a chance to bring my male and female side together, to bring my satellite and my biology side together

Starting point is 01:23:05 and merge them. So I got very excited and I had the chance to meet and now work with and support the work of Dr. Tracy. And he taught me a very simple sentence, Tim, which I've subsequently found to be absolutely true in all the research I've read. It is that the nervous system touches every single

Starting point is 01:23:26 cell in your body. The nervous system touches every single cell in our body. The largest nerve in the body, there's one nerve that is way, way larger than all the rest of them. It's the vagus nerve. It starts in our mind. It wraps around our heart, our lungs, our gut. It's an immense nerve. And by stimulating this vagus nerve, it's possible to have positive therapeutic effects in the body. By a fluke of nature, a positive fluke, the vagus nerve comes out to the skin in two and only two places around the left and right ears. There are a couple of different ridges in your earlobe or your ear, I guess how you would say it. And one of them called the simba conchi is the place where the vagus nerve comes out. And if

Starting point is 01:24:20 you electrically stimulate the simba conchi on either the left or the right ear, it's been proven now, again, in lots of published literature, to have positive therapeutic effects on the body. What are some of those positive therapeutic effects? One which has been documented quite extensively is the ability to control Crohn's disease and irritable bowel syndrome, which are two gastrointestinal problems, as well as very high-priced and, I would say, tinged with some potential side effect biologic medicines that are approved by the FDA to treat Crohn's disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Another illness that has been shown

Starting point is 01:25:06 to mediate against is rheumatoid arthritis. And the common factor here is that we have two types of nervous systems. We have a fight-or-flight nervous system, which is the sympathetic nervous system, and we have a rest-and- and digest nervous system, which is called the parasympathetic nervous system. When diseases occur, it's because one of those two nervous systems, the sympathetic one, the fight or flight, takes more of a dominant position in the body and causes a state of inflammation or over-activation. And by stimulating the vagus nerve, you can ramp up the power of the parasympathetic nervous system and calm down this kind of overstressed state that leads to an irritable bowel syndrome or to the inflammation of arthritis.

Starting point is 01:25:59 This is, in the course of doing all the reading for this conversation, one of those things that really woke me up and made me pay attention for a bunch of reasons. One is relevance to my current life because I've been working with a doctor for about 10 weeks doing heart rate variability training. And there are some researchers with claims, I want to say out of Rutgers and elsewhere, that certain types of HRV training affect vagal tone and via affecting that vagal tone have a host of cascading therapeutic benefits. Whether or not that holds up to scrutiny or not, I don't know. But the second, and I'm embarrassed to even give voice to this. So hopefully this won't just destroy any tiny shred of credibility that I might have as I mentioned it. But I lived in China for a period of time in college,

Starting point is 01:26:54 went to two universities there in Beijing as effectively an exchange student, but it was a one-way exchange. I don't think we had any students in return from China. And the ears are very much utilized in the world of acupuncture. And I'm curious to know if you think that whether by trial and error or otherwise, it's possible that acupuncture stumbled upon the effects without knowing the mechanism of stimulating or affecting the ears to then in turn affect the vagus nerve. I know it's quite a stretch, but when I first read about this access via the ears, that is one thing that jumped to mind because I always kind of poo-pooed and, if I'm being honest, ridiculed the idea of using the ears to access these deep inner points. But here we are. So I don't know if you have any thoughts. Tim, first, your credibility is immense. You would have to actually say something crazy to Denton or what you said is the opposite of crazy. What you said

Starting point is 01:28:05 is extremely insightful and prescient. So as convinced as I was that putting a satellite in geostationary orbit would enable people across the planet to receive radio signals, as convinced as I was that we could have a molecule that would halt the progression of my daughter and other people's disease. That's exactly how convinced I am that the acupuncturists of traditional Chinese medicine did in fact come upon the nerve patterns that are accessible from the earlobe. And one of the first things that Dr. Tracy showed me was a very medically accurate from a Chinese traditional medicine practitioner map of the earlobe in terms of exactly where you put, I'm sorry, I don't know what the official name is of the pins or needles that

Starting point is 01:28:59 they put in your earlobe, and how they map to different parts of the body. And then he showed me on an anatomy map how that traces the lines of the vagus nerve. So, yeah, it is totally true. And why really would it not be true? I mean, you know, thousands of years of Chinese civilization, they have had a chance to do so much trial and error. And they were illiterate civilization for so long. So the results of that trial and error could be passed on and passed on. So I do think it's entirely rational that they would have figured this out. And what I'm hoping for now and what I'm trying to support is there is an opportunity to, what I call in my own words, crack the human neurome. So what that means is that there are unique patterns of amplitudes

Starting point is 01:29:56 and signal lengths and signal voltages that will activate some different part of the vagus nerve than others. And each of these different voltages and wavelengths will correlate to a different part of the human body. We don't know what those are. Right now, we are just kind of, in a way, I would say we're dumber than the acupuncturist because almost all of the work that the FDA has allowed to go forward on vagal nerve stimulation, they all use the same pulse width, the same pulse power, and it works. So that's great. But I think it could work even better if we decoded the human neuron. And I believe in the future, people will be able to put on a pair of like beat headsets and those beat headsets will have gel-less, meaning like you don't need like the EKG kind of gel, gel-less

Starting point is 01:30:52 electrodes, will rest across your Simba Conky and your Traga and the different parts of your earlobe and will provide you a stimulation that matches the particular ailment that you have. Eliminate the ailment without taking any pills, without paying any money to anybody. This is an area I want to keep digging in because it's rare, well, it's pretty much non-existent that I have the opportunity to speak with someone with so much electrical engineering background about the possible applications or implications of technology like this. I'd love to just throw out another group of devices to see if you have any opinions on them one way or the other.

Starting point is 01:31:34 But potential applications of, let's just say, TDCS or TMS, so transcranial direct current stimulation, or other means of stimulating the brain, typically using some type of conducive gel, but not always in the case of a TMS paddle. Have you looked at these technologies or done any reading in the literature related to them? A little bit. I'm aware of a friend of mine has a company that obtained an FDA approval for treating a particular form of brain cancer with this type of technology. So there's this very solid scientific benefit that's been documented. After many years of working through the FDA, I have a world of respect for the rigor that they put into any decision to approve something. So

Starting point is 01:32:23 when they approved it, it meant that it was scientifically proven to work. Something that is quite different from that, but at the same time related to it, Tim, is on the last day of 2019, which was like the last day of the decade, it turned out to be a weekday. I forget if it was a Tuesday or whatever, but the U.S. Patent Office only issues patents on one day of a week. And it was like the one day of a week that they issue them on, whether it's Tuesday or whatever. And it was a patent that I received for a device that I call a Alzheimer's Cognitive Enabler. And this device is worn over the cranium, as you mentioned, and it senses nerve impulses inside the brain. It is connected to a computer with a visual recognition

Starting point is 01:33:17 and a speech comprehension system so that if a patient with Alzheimer's is not able to adequately communicate and appear to recognize the people who are coming into their room, the computer vision recognition system and sound recognition system will talk on behalf of the Alzheimer's patient, say, you know, hello, son, thank you for coming to see me. And it is actually being triggered by recognitions that are deep in the Alzheimer's patient's mind so that more people will come to visit the patient, the patient's stress levels may be lower. So I believe this kind of bridging of electronics

Starting point is 01:33:59 in the mind is really right around the corner. What inspired putting the work into that research and filing that patent? I think part of it was seeing my mother-in-law suffer pretty badly from somewhere on the spectrum between dementia and Alzheimer's. It was never really completely clear where she was at that. And she would recognize us coming in, but she couldn't communicate. And it would have meant a lot to everybody if she would be able to communicate. My own mother is more or less at that point right now as well. Secondly, the work on the BINA48 computer showed me that it was really possible for people to strike up meaningful relationships with the digital version of Bina, the Bina48 robot. And so it was just like, you know,

Starting point is 01:34:55 a very short step from instead of putting all of Bina's or even a good portion of her memories and her personality into this computer, why not actually have the computer's interaction capability, input-output capability, triggered by something like a NeuroSky type of EEG brain interface? And the last piece of it was I was given a Christmas present by a friend of mine, which was one of these NeuroSky headsets that lets you kind of like play a game just with your thoughts by controlling your EEG signals. So that's a consumer product anybody can buy, and it really works. This conversation brings back a lot of memories for me because I have Alzheimer's disease. It's very prevalent on both sides of my family,

Starting point is 01:35:41 and observed both sets of my grandparents deteriorate to the point where at least some of them couldn't recognize immediate family members. And was recently re-watching segments of a documentary I saw called Alive Inside, and the subtitle is A Story of Music and Memory. And what struck me most about this documentary is that not that they could play music from someone's youth to them through headsets and watch them come alive in some really spectacular ways, both physically in terms of kinesiology moving around, but also psychologically. The most impressive part to me is that they would play music for, say, a handful of minutes, five to 10 minutes from someone's youth, and then turn off

Starting point is 01:36:31 the music. And that person could have a perfectly coherent, reasonably fast speed conversation, whereas prior to the administration of the music, they were, from the outside, catatonic, basically. And it makes me wonder what music is doing, I'm sure there are people who study this and probably have a better mechanistic explanation, and how it could be incorporated into therapies intended to counter dementia or advanced Alzheimer's disease, things of this type. Tim, you see, just in this conversation, we are uncovering so many vast new oceans of opportunity for people to learn and study about. To me, music is the foundational human technology, because the first thing that we ever could

Starting point is 01:37:20 become aware of would be the beat of our mother's hearts while we were still in utero. And that beat, that's a rhythm, okay? And after we're born, people may have better or worse rhythm, but there's nobody that cannot detect the sound of a beat and move to it. And then all the different types of melodies and chords that build upon rhythm, it's just fancier and fancier forms of music. So I believe that there's tremendous therapeutic properties to music. It's just been scratched, not even scratched. It's been kind of like blown on, like, and it's there for like all the thousands of young people today who have come up, grown up with more music than ever before to begin to apply this great human cultural technology of music

Starting point is 01:38:13 to the biggest mystery in the entire universe, which is the human mind. I want to come back to the mind, or more accurately, consciousness in a moment. But first, this will seem like a left turn, and it is. I was reading a piece in the Washington Post that covered quite a lot of your life, and there was a segment on love night. I don't know if that's enough of a prompt, but can you tell us what love night is? So when Dina, my partner, and I got married, we each had one child from a previous marriage that each of us had custody of. And then we had two children together. And we were kind of trying to build a blended family that would feel like nobody was a stepmom or a stepdad,

Starting point is 01:39:02 that everybody was just like in one family. And in fact, we cross-adopted each other's kids from our previous marriages. So I was taking the kids to music classes. All of the kids were in the Yamaha music program where they learned piano and violin, instruments like that. And we would practice songs. And I was brought up Jewish, where every Friday night was something that was special. It was the Sabbath, and the family sat down together and had dinner and said a couple of prayers. So Bina and I tried to think, how can we

Starting point is 01:39:41 merge all these things together? The Jewish tradition, the need to create a blended family, the music that we were all enjoying from watching the kids learn to play piano and violin. And we decided to, every Friday night, have a special family ceremony, which we would call Love Night. And we sang a song, which the melody was actually based on one of the kids' songs that they had learned in the Yamaha music program. The words were very simple and affirming. And at Love Night, the core of Love Night was that each person around the table would have an opportunity to say what love meant to them during the past week, during the week from the previous Friday to this Friday.

Starting point is 01:40:33 What does love mean to you? And, you know, Bina and I, as the adults, we would say something either sophisticated or simple, like, I love Bina, I love Martine, I love the kids. The kids started off just saying like, what love means to me is like our dogs or our cat, you know, very basic things. But as they grew older, they came into more and more sophisticated definitions and expressions of love until after a couple of decades of this, all of us have heard thousands of different things that love can mean to a person. Now, I'd like to fast forward, and I'm sorry to be on a little riff here, but I want to fast forward to the current COVID pandemic. Our kids are all adults now. They've flown the coop. They have their own kids. And suddenly we are in a situation where we can't

Starting point is 01:41:26 all gather together in any one house for love night. You don't want to travel. You don't want to endanger people, so on and so forth. So we decided to continue the love night tradition, but on Zoom or to be fair, Google Meet. So every Friday night, from my son, who's a captain in the army in Iraq, to his wife, who's on a base in El Paso, to my other son with four grandchildren in Florida, to my daughter in Brooklyn and her kid and her husband and Bita and I, we all get together on Zoom, plus friends of all of ours. The kids were not embarrassed by Love Night. In fact, they wanted to share it with their friends, and their friends were saying like, whoa, this is crazy. This is beautiful. And so we get together

Starting point is 01:42:14 every Friday night. We sing our Love Night song. And now there's about 20 of us. We go around virtually what love meant to us during that previous week. And I would say Love Night is one of the most beautiful parts of my life. Ah, I am so glad that I asked that question. And Love Night, could you give a few more examples of possible answers just to give people a flavor for how people might answer this question. Because I, for instance, would love to try this with my girlfriend, with some of our friends, family, etc. But I would be nervous as the orchestrator that I might get that question and not have the ability to kick things off effectively. So every morning, Bina, my partner, goes out for, takes our two dogs out for a walk with one of her best friends who lives a few houses away. And that best friend now joins our love nights. And last Friday, she said, what love means to me is every morning going out for a walk with Bina and the dogs. Last week, our youngest grandson, Saturn,

Starting point is 01:43:26 he was born in 2010, so he's 10 years old. He said, what love means to me is this. And he pulled a piece of paper. He said, I got a 95 on my math test. And he was just so proud of himself and shared it with us. So those are typical examples of, I think I last time said what love means to me is sitting down at the piano and playing different songs from memory. So to use this as a skipping stone, but I think I'm getting my metaphors mixed up, a launch pad, a lily pad. Pick your choice. To consciousness, do you think that we will be able to, as I've heard you put it once, recapitulate or recreate consciousness synthetically? And does that mean we'll have machines that can love, for instance, in the not-too-distant future? What would it mean

Starting point is 01:44:27 to have created consciousness? Sure. I do believe it's possible. And a great book that I would recommend that goes into this subject in beautiful detail is called The Emotion Machine by Marvin Minsky. And Marvin Minsky is often thought of as the father of artificial intelligence. He was a professor at MIT for a great many years. So in the Emotion Machine book, he really describes exactly how you would go about creating a computer and the type of software that it would take in order for the machine to feel what we feel when we say that we love somebody. And I think it's likely to occur, Tim, because it's hard for me to think of any aspect of life that cannot be replicated if one had sufficiently advanced technology. One of my favorite sayings from another role model, Arthur C. Clarke, is that magic is

Starting point is 01:45:32 indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology. So I think just like we have been able to create an artificial hip, artificial knees, artificial hearts. In my own company, we are building lungs and kidneys. People are creating artificial nerves. People like Elon Musk has formed a whole company, Neuralink, where he's working on downloading a whole human brain. I have little doubt that humans will end up being able to replicate a human mind. Now, whether or not the rest of society accepts it as a human mind or not, I think is going to be a long pitch battle. And that's what is the subject of my book, Virtually Human. That whole book talks about how and when will society accept

Starting point is 01:46:27 digital consciousness as being as conscious as a human. But even if that digital consciousness is not yet at human level, what happens when it's at, say, primate level or at canine level or even at rodent level? If you can get to any of these levels, you could kind of see how it's the same old human effort of keep making incremental improvements that would eventually get you to the human level, where I think that the individual alive today that has the best understanding of this topic is a guy at Google named Ray Kurzweil. He's a director of engineering at Google. And what I love about Ray is he never tires of pointing out that this digital human consciousness, it's human. Human consciousness is a human phenomena. So when we create a digital analog or doppelganger or simulcra, whatever you want to

Starting point is 01:47:27 call it, when we create a her, that her is human. It's not us versus them. It's one. We will have been able to move our mind into a digital substrate, just like if our knees give out, you move it to a mechanical substrate, or if an knees give out, you move it to a mechanical substrate, or if an organ gives out, you transplant it with another organ. Where would you, if you had to, kind of Price is Right style, put a timeline on this? When do you think we'll have rodent or canine level consciousness plus intelligence? Yeah, it's pretty hard to say, Tim, because one thing I am not is I'm not a soothsayer, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a visionary, any of those things. I'm

Starting point is 01:48:11 just a humble technologist and all the projects I work on, they have five-year time horizons because I have difficulty really seeing beyond five years. So every technology I'm working on, it's like I want to get this thing done and out to the public within five years. So every technology I'm working on, it's like, I want to get this thing done and out to the public within five years. Also, I am totally a believer in this adage that futurists usually over-promise in the near term and under-promise in the long term. So what that would mean in this context is you will hear a lot of futurists saying, oh, we'll have digital rats or digital dogs or digital people in 10, 20, or 30 years. They have probably over-promised in the near term. What they have under-promised in the long term is in not 10, 20, 30 years, but in say 80, 90, or 100 years,

Starting point is 01:49:08 there won't be just digital rats, digital dogs, and digital people, but most people will be digital. Exciting, and I suppose for some people, very terrifying at the same time. What are some of the most important ethical questions or considerations related to technology as we move into future decades, in your mind? In my mind, the biggest problem with technology is that people only think about the rights to implement a technology, and they don't think about the obligations they have as somebody creating a technology. And by what I mean by that is, you know, there was this great philosopher of the 20th century, Isaac Berlin, I believe he was German, and he had a real simple message. His message was that for every right, there is an obligation. It's,

Starting point is 01:50:06 again, it's a very Alan Wattsian, sorry to keep coming back to Alan Watts, but it's a very Alan Wattsian point of view that a right only means something in the context of its obligation. So, for example, if I have a right to be a parent, which we think everybody has a right to be a parent, you only have that right to be a parent so long as you comply with your obligation to be at least not a horrible parent. If you're a horrible parent, you will have your children taken away from you, and you'll no longer, in that sense, be a parent. So, with regard to technology, I think there is a point of view that anybody who can

Starting point is 01:50:47 create a technology has a right to make that technology. But I dispute the ethics of that perspective. I think that every right to make a technology is coupled to an obligation to have the consent of anybody who would be adversely affected by that technology. So, for example, my right to build an atomic power plant or a nuclear power plant someplace, I don't just have that right. That right is coupled to an obligation that I have to have the consent of all the surrounding communities of people who could be adversely affected by the implementation of that technology. And it comes into this domain of, in my own field, say, the transplantation of genetically modified pig organs into people. For me to have a right to do

Starting point is 01:51:40 that technology, I have to have the consent of the larger community that that's a safe thing to do. In a democratic country, that consent is issued on behalf of the country by the government, and in the field of health, it's issued by the FDA. So before the FDA permits us to transplant these genetically modified pig organs into people, they want us to demonstrate to them that there is no risk, not a small risk, but no risk of any kind of animal virus seeping into the human population as a result of these animal transplants. So in summary, I believe like an amazing field for the future, a field that will probably in the future have almost as many people with this career as our web designers today, is the field of technoethics. Everybody who wants to create a technology will need to wrap that technology in an ethical envelope of consent. If we look at science over, well, we could look at

Starting point is 01:52:48 it over the last few thousand years, but let's just say the last few hundred years, you mentioned earlier that, I think you were discussing the structure of scientific revolutions, how these breakthroughs, these massive scientific leaps forward seem like complete madness at the time to the vast majority. And we don't have to go that far back to find, say, surgery without or with minimal use of anesthetics on newborns and infants. I mean, this is not the dark ages. This is less than 100 years ago. You see some really appalling things that were taken as best practices or common practice. And one of my friends, who's an outstanding doctor, likes to repeat this, I suppose, adage that you hear among good doctors, which is 50% of what we know is wrong,

Starting point is 01:53:38 we just don't know which 50%. And that seems to always be true. So if we flash forward 10 or 20 years, and I know you're not a profiter as who's there, but I'm curious, or it could be five years as a technologist, what do you think are any of the things we're doing now or believe now that will be shown to be patently absurd or viewed as barbaric or crazy or naive in the near future? Probably a lot of things. Since a lot of what we look back in the past that seems to be barbaric, building on top of your example of the tortuous procedures put onto neonates, people forget that the founder of the American Medical Association, the first doctor who created the American Medical Association, his name was Dr. Gross.

Starting point is 01:54:34 He lived in Philadelphia, and he did not believe in asepsis at all. And so he would do all of his procedures right in his street clothes, infecting everybody. And countless women lost their lives because of having those type of quote-unquote doctors helping with the delivery of the children and ending up creating a septic condition in the mothers. And one of the most famous painters in American history, Thomas Eakins, painted this picture of the Gross Clinic, where Dr. Gross was teaching all the young doctors how to do a procedure, and you see dirt in his shoes and scuffy hands. Then he was followed. The second president of the American Medical Association was a Dr. Agnew, who was the student of Gross. And he had read about the research of Lister in England and became a believer that even though

Starting point is 01:55:32 we can't see these things, germs, they're real. And we need to practice strict septic procedures before we do an operation. A few years later, Thomas Eakins painted the Agnew Clinic, and you see that the doctor is in white smocks and everybody is looking super sterile and clean. So these type of revolutions can occur just like one generation to the next. It's not something that takes a long time. I think that looking at what's going on today in our world, I think the fact that we burn our own house will look to be absolutely bonkers. People would say, well, let me get this right. You've got like, you know, a super thin atmosphere.

Starting point is 01:56:18 I mean, you guys saw that from space since the 60s, at least. This atmosphere around your planet is super thin. You have an undeniable record of measurements of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere going up year after year after year. And you continue to just spew without limit greenhouse gases into this atmosphere, despite the fact that people are dying on the shorelines, dying of diseases, et cetera, et cetera, I think they will think we are as stupid as somebody who would light a fire in the middle of their house to try to keep warm and not bother with the smoke that they were choking on. And then if I could add an addendum to that, did you guys know that the earth receives 10,000 times the amount of solar

Starting point is 01:57:06 energy falls right on the earth each day than it uses? 10,000 times the amount of energy it flows. And that's not to talk about the wind, and that's not to talk about the waves, and that's not to talk about the nuclear energy. I think the people in the future may think we were pretty stupid to be so scared of nuclear energy, which has killed a few dozens of people, that we went ahead and just stopped all the nuclear plants and began pouring ungodly amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere that will kill millions of people. That will seem ludicrous to them. I think this is, and I won't keep you too much longer, but I think this, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to comment on or describe your own engineering projects with carbon neutrality or zero emissions as an objective, because this is not just idle hand-waving for you. This is something that you've taken a keen engineering mind to, and I think that was not mentioned in your bio, even though it's yet another one of these examples of extreme curiosity and capability. Could you just describe what you've done in that arena, please? So this is another area that gives me immense enjoyment. Again, another kind of like

Starting point is 01:58:25 lightning bolt to my soul is to try to create infrastructure, buildings and cars and planes and things that have a zero carbon footprint. And I look at it as an intellectual challenge. When I've read that people said, well, we cannot have a zero carbon footprint society until 2050. That's what the authorities say. You know already, Tim, I'm going to say, why? Why not? Why not? Why not? I'm going to question that authority. So about three years ago, we undertook to build a new headquarters for a company in Silver Spring, Maryland, that would have a zero-carbon footprint, not in the best climate, Maryland. It's got its good seasons and its bad seasons, right in the middle of a city. Silver Spring, Maryland is a built-up suburb of Washington,

Starting point is 01:59:17 D.C., and for the manufacture of medicines and stuff, which is somewhat of an energy-intensive activity. So we built a 150,000-square-foot, zero-carbon footprint building, which turned out to be the largest zero-carbon footprint building in the entire world. And we inaugurated it a couple years ago. It turns out we produce more energy than we use each year, now two years running. We did this by just thinking carefully about energy and how to manage it. So for example, we have underneath the building 50 wells, each of which go down 500 feet, and they exchange heat from the building with the coolness of the earth in the summer, bring the coolness back up, and in the winter, they exchange coolness of the building with the steady temperature of the earth

Starting point is 02:00:12 in the winter to keep the building warm. The sides of the building are clouded with solar panels. The entire building has a brain that automatically opens the windows and closes the windows to allow natural ventilation. It's a role model for many other buildings, and lots of designers and engineers have come over there. Another example is in the delivery of our organs. Right now, we refurbish organs, lungs in particular, that a decedent has donated donated or the decedent's family has agreed to the donation. But when the transplant surgeons look at that lung, they say it's too full of fluid and mucus, we can't use it, throw it away. So what United Therapeutics says is give us your lonely, unwanted, unloved lungs, fly them to Silver Spring, Maryland, we will refurbish them,

Starting point is 02:01:04 we'll show through a high-speed digital network to the transplant surgeons all across the country that the organ is good as new through this digital network and bronchoscope and x-ray and all that stuff. And then we fly the lungs back out to them. We've saved over 150 lives this way, Tim. How do you refurbish a lung? First, you have to remove it from the dying body. A dying body is a terrible place to be. So we remove it from the decedent. We cool it down. So we kind of give it a, I won't say we freeze it, but we cool it down very low temperature. We fly it to Maryland

Starting point is 02:01:38 and we put it in a glass dome. And in this glass dome, we have tubes, we have a kind of artificial blood and air pumping. So we've made a kind of isolated artificial body just for that lung. And we have expert technicians who work these, sorry, I don't know the exact name of the equipment, but it sucks out mucus and they operate on the lungs like it was a person, but it's just an isolated pair of lungs. And the transplant doctors who could be in Texas or Florida, wherever, they tell us through the digital screen and the voice, put the bronchoscope down the left side or down the right side or go further. They see this and they know what they want. So our technicians know how to do this. And within four hours, in almost two-thirds of the time, we were able to take what was a non-compliant dead piece of tissue and turn it into a nicely breathing lung.

Starting point is 02:02:34 It's so beautiful to watch, Tim. The lungs go in and out like a butterfly's wings going up and down. In fact, you could see a video of it on that Washington Post article you were mentioning. And then we cool the lungs back down and we fly it to the transplant surgeon. And 100% of the time that they have accepted these lungs, they have had successful lung transplants with, like I mentioned, over 150 people walking out of the hospital. But I mentioned this because this is a lot of flying around, flying here, flying there, helicopters going back and forth, planes.

Starting point is 02:03:08 And if I'm going to make an unlimited supply of organs, and you remember all those numbers we talked about at the beginning of the call, the hundreds of thousands of people who needs these organs, that is going to be a humongous carbon footprint. We could have said to ourselves, well, we're doing such a good thing. We're saving all these lives. We could be permitted to foul our atmosphere because it's balanced by the good things we're doing. But instead, we like to ask ourselves the challenging question, how can we do the good thing and the right thing at the same time? How can we manufacture all these lungs and deliver them with a zero carbon footprint? And the solution came from the technology of electric helicopters,

Starting point is 02:03:52 which are powered by renewable energy that can fly these organs from one place to the other without adding any carbon footprint at all. And I will be a little bit of a soothsayer here. I am absolutely convinced that in this decade, the 2020s, we will be delivering manufactured organs by electric helicopter. I love it. I will say one. I may cheat and sneak in one or two more, but- I love talking with you. Well, likewise, this is just endlessly, endlessly interesting. So many, so many different pathways into the labyrinth. But I need to make sure, I suppose, since my job is supposedly interviewer, that I can find my way back out. I have read that-

Starting point is 02:04:36 Alan Watts will show you the way. Alan Watts will show you the way. He does have a most seductive and hypnotic voice. For those who haven't heard, I recommend. I've read that a favorite saying of yours is, quote, identify the corridors of indifference and run like hell down them, end quote. Can you please speak to that or explain what that means for you? Yes. So identify the corridors of indifference and run like hell down them means to try to find a, I'll put it in business terms, a market area that is ignored, a unmet need, but it doesn't really have to just apply to medicine. It can

Starting point is 02:05:15 apply to any area of life. And the way I would phrase it, Tim, in just like a very natural, almost folklorish way, is that it's better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. In a business school back at UCLA, one person we studied a lot was the experience of General Electric under Jack Welch. And he had an adage, which from a business sense was, I think, very, very smart. He said, if you can't be number one or number two in a market, don't even try because you will have to spend an amount of money equal to the revenues of the number one or number two in that market to become the number one or number two in the market. If you're not the number one or number

Starting point is 02:06:03 two, you will always struggle to be profitable. But if you are the number one or number two in the market. If you're not the number one or number two, you will always struggle to be profitable. But if you are the number one or number two, your profitability is assured. So what that means, translated to all of our activities, is if there's an area, like for example, a number of people have said, you know, we should get involved. We, when I say we, my company, Knight Therapeutics, should get involved in creating a vaccine for COVID. And to me, well, you know, it's not a corridor of indifference. There are dozens of companies working on a vaccine for COVID. So that's not what we would want to do.

Starting point is 02:06:41 It's very unlikely we'd ever be successful on that. Somebody else said, well, how about these people, the COVID long haulers, the people who have survived from a very difficult course of COVID, and they've got chronic lung problems that are bothering them months and likely years after the effect? I said, yes, that's a corridor of indifference. Nobody is thinking about the long haulers, the people who now have chronic lung problems because of the havoc that COVID wracked in their lungs. Let's develop some medicines for these chronic long haulers. Makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. On a related, maybe a related note in some respects, this is a question that doesn't always work, so I'll take the blame if it doesn't. But

Starting point is 02:07:30 if you had a billboard, metaphorically speaking, to get a message, a quote, a word, an image, a question, anything out to billions of people, let's just assume they all speak English for the sake of argument, what might you put on that billboard? I think Apple Computer and Steve Jobs got there before me. Think different. Think different. Why is that important? Because the solutions, you know, Albert Einstein said you can't solve a problem on the same level that it was created. You have to solve it on a different level. If we all think the exact same way, we will never get out of the ruts that we're in. The only way to get out of the problems

Starting point is 02:08:13 that we face is to think differently, to go down the corridor of indifference, to question authority, to be diverse. Thinking different is the pathway to solving problems that exist today. Looking back at everything we've talked about and looking at all of the copious pages of notes for prep in front of me, it strikes me that you've forged many paths for yourself and helped others to do the same by thinking different, but also thinking brightly, coming back to Alan Watts yet again, the yin and the yang, and seeing the positive, looking for the positive in different circumstances, different situations. Do you have any advice or recommendations for people who struggle to do that, who are maybe mired in a sense of, hopelessness might be too strong a word, but those who tend to

Starting point is 02:09:10 see the glass as half full and perhaps as a result of that tend to see half the spectrum of options or solutions? It's a really difficult question to answer, Tim, because everybody's situation is so unique and so different. And I do not doubt that for many, many people, it is just a bad life, whether it started that way or ended up that way. And it's almost impossible to see a way out. The perspective that I take is that I try to stay in touch with my ancestors. I think about the great-grandmothers who had to bear children in the worst of possible circumstances. I think about all of the, like my partner Bina's great-grandmothers, who were picking cotton as slaves and had to work all day being bitten up by

Starting point is 02:10:08 bugs, burning in the sun, feet deep in mud, and then bear a child at the last moment. So whether it's like my great-grandparents from Eastern Europe or hers from the African diaspora, they had nothing to look forward to other than just the hope that they were going to have some children and that maybe those children might have a little bit of a better life than they did. And if not their children, their children's children. So their only purpose in life, their only hope in life, their only joy in life was to make a generation and that maybe that generation would be better. Now, here we are in America or really most any other country in the world. We're at a point now where like eight out of 10 people have a smartphone with access to all the world's

Starting point is 02:10:57 knowledge and information, with access to countless amounts of music and training through YouTube. There are many people in the world still in dire circumstances, but the vast majority of people are doing better than people have ever done before in history. So I say to myself, and I would ask somebody else looking through the world darkly right now, looking at the glass half full, I would say, how much worse it must have been in the past. What do I owe to my grandparents and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents who suffered and toiled, who barely managed to survive to produce another generation? What do I owe to them? I owe to them to make the absolute most possible out of my life,

Starting point is 02:11:43 and that's what I'm going to do. Hot damn, Marti, and I'm ready to get out there and get amongst it. I have so enjoyed this conversation. There are 79 more hours we could do just in round one. I won't subject you to that. And I'm so grateful that you were willing to make the time to have this conversation. Thank you so much. My pleasure being with you, Tim. And is there anything else you would like to say, to suggest or ask of those listening before we

Starting point is 02:12:17 bring this to a close? Two of my best friends and people who I think are the smartest, most creative, most happy-loving people I know. Paul Mann and D.A. Wallach both said to me that your podcast is the best. And Martina, if Tim Ferriss invites you on his podcast, you have to go on it. So thank you, D.A., and thank you, Paul. Well, thanks to them also. For me, I have for many months, my whole team knows this, been hoping to have you on. I had high hopes coming into it. You exceeded all of those high hopes, which seems to be a pattern for you. And I'm just very grateful and happy that we had a chance to connect. So thank you again. And for everyone listening,

Starting point is 02:13:07 you can find Martine on Instagram at transbinary, Twitter at skybiome. We will link to everything in the show notes that have mentioned in this conversation, the books and everything you can imagine that we discussed will be available in the show notes at tim.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time, be kind, practice love night, think different, think brightly, and thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off

Starting point is 02:13:39 and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've

Starting point is 02:14:02 found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog slash Friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog slash Friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

Starting point is 02:14:49 This episode is brought to you by Shopify, one of my absolute favorite companies, and they make some of my favorite products. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. And I've known the team since 2008 or 2009. But prior to that, I wish I had personally had Shopify in the early 2000s when I was running my own e-commerce business. I tell that story in the 4-Hour Workweek, but the tools then were absolutely atrocious and I could only dream of a platform like Shopify. In fact, it was you guys, my dear readers, who introduced me to Shopify when I polled all of you about best e-commerce platforms around 2009, and they've only become better and better since.

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The Tim Ferriss Show - #749: Michael Lewis and Martine Rothblatt

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