The Tim Ferriss Show - #76: Rick Rubin, The Seclusive Zen Master

Episode Date: May 15, 2015

Rick Rubin has been called "the most important [music] producer of the last 20 years" by MTV. Rick is also revered as something of a Zen master across industries, and he is as deep as he is soft-spoken. He rarely grants interviews, and one condition of doing this one was the setting: his hyper-heated barrel sauna at home. [Show notes can be found at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast] In this episode, we delve into how Rick helps artists (e.g. Jay Z, Shakira, Johnny Cash, etc.) produce their best work. Not only that, we also discuss Rick's step-by-step experience losing 135+ pounds. He describes underwater weightlifting stories, training with Laird Hamilton, testing different diets, and much more. Rick's resume includes everyone from Johnny Cash to Jay Z. His metal artists include groups like Black Sabbath, Slayer, System of a Down, Metallica, Rage Against the Machine, and Linkin Park. He's worked with pop artists like Shakira, Adele, Sheryl Crow, Lana Del Rey, and Lady Gaga. He's also been credited with helping to popularize hip hop with artists like LL Cool J, The Beastie Boys, Eminem, Jay Z, and Kanye West. And that's just a small sample. This conversation teaches a cohesive lesson in breaking down complex skills with deep and subtle problem solving. The sauna caused the microphones to burn our hands and us to nearly pass out. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, folks! I think it adds a hilarious element to the whole thing, but it's not without risks. Enjoy! Last but not least, if you haven't seen my new TV show, which is #1 on iTunes as I write this, please check out The Tim Ferriss Experiment! There are 13 episodes, including ones with surfer Laird Hamilton and "top 10 drummer of all-time" Stewart Copeland. ### This episode is sponsored by Onnit. I have used Onnit products for years. If you look in my kitchen or in my garage you will find Alpha BRAIN, chewable melatonin (for resetting my clock while traveling), kettlebells, maces, battle ropes, and steel clubs. It sounds like a torture chamber, and it basically is. A torture chamber for self-improvement! Ah, the lovely pain. To see a list of my favorite pills, potions, and heavy tools, click here. This podcast is also brought to you by 99Designs, the world’s largest marketplace of graphic designers. Did you know I used 99Designs to rapid prototype the cover for The 4-Hour Body? Here are some of the impressive results. Click this link and get a free $99 upgrade. ***If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews!For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Visit tim.blog/sponsor and fill out the form.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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tim.blog forward slash Friday. If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot and you can, of course, easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Guten Tag, my sexy little munchkins. This is Tim Ferriss in a very echo-laden wooden room on an island. And we'll be hearing more about that in a future episode with Chris Saka. But in the meantime, I am so excited to present an episode that was very, very physically demanding. And this conversation you are about to listen to is with none other than Rick Rubin. And if you don't recognize that name, well, the bio could seem almost fabricated. It is so impressive. So he has been called the most important producer, that's music producer of the

last 20 years by MTV. And in 2007, he appeared on Time's 100 most influential people in the world list. Why would he appear on such a list? Well, if you could imagine, say, in the book world, that you named every author you could think of off the top of your head, all the name brand folks, and then found out that one agent and one editor were responsible for all of them, you'd be dumbfounded. And that's pretty much the case when you look at the discography of Rick Rubin. So he was the former co-president of Columbia Records. He was co-founder along with Russell Simmons of Death Jam Records and helped to popularize hip hop music by working with the Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Public Enemy Run DMC, for instance. And I'm not going to give the whole list because it's too long, but here are just some of the artists that he has worked with. Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys, which I already mentioned, Johnny Cash,

Slayer, Jay-Z, and he appeared in the 99 Problems video, Danzig, Dixie Chicks, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Black Sabbath, Slipknot, Metallica, ACDC, Aerosmith, Linkin Park, Weezer, The Cult, Neil Diamond, Mick Jagger, System of a Down. It goes on and on. And the genres span from, say, Lady Gaga to ZZ Top to Shakira and everything in between. Kanye West, Eminem, you name it. So he's a fascinating guy. Very much a Zen monk in his temperament. And I've gotten to know Rick over the last few years.

And he insisted that we do the podcast in his sauna, which is a barrel sauna that makes your head melt. It is so intense. So this is a very challenging episode. I hope you get some laughs out of it. And what you will realize very quickly is you have to listen intently to Rick's answers. So Rick has sort of layers behind layers behind layers. So he'll tell you something and you're like, wow, I'm not sure I actually get what that means. And then months later, it'll dawn on you. Oh, my God, there are so many different depths to that answer. I didn't pick up on it the first time around.

So you will have to interpret and ponder a lot of what Rick brings up. But I hope you enjoy this. I enjoyed it, although I nearly had heat stroke. And without further ado, here is Rick Rubin. Well, almost without further ado, folks, one more ado. I forgot to mention, if you are interested in music, be sure to check out the drumming episode of the Tim Ferriss Experiment, which is my TV show. It's been the number one TV season on iTunes now for some time, amazingly. But if you go to itunes.com forward slash tim ferris two r's two s's you can

see a bunch of bonus footage all the episodes including the drumming episode where i am trained by stewart copeland the founding drummer of the police widely considered one of the top 10 drummers of all time his teaching method resembles doc from back to the future it is an amazing experience and i only had a few days with the gun against my head to train to then play to a sold out auditorium as the drummer for Foreigner, which was a nervous breakdown inducing to say the least. So you can check it out, itunes.com forward slash Tim Ferriss, two R's and two S's. And now here is Rick Rubin. Rick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

And this setting is somewhat unique, and I've been looking forward to it slash fearing it ever since you first mentioned it to me. Where are we right now? We are sitting in a sauna. We are sitting in a very hot barrel sauna, and I was told that was one of the conditions for having this conversation and it's uh such an impressive barrel sauna it's indoors that i wanted to get the specs for it when i first saw it and you have a heater that has to be what four times the size of the off the shelf heater that would go into such a heater yeah it's a it's a much bigger heater than for the size of the room that we're in. And I'm sitting on the floor because I have such little confidence in my ability to withstand heat compared to you.

But we do have the alternate, which is the bath just outside of this door. And you and I have gone back and forth, of course, quite a few times with this type of cycling. But what is right outside of this door? A metal tub filled with ice. It is a metal tub about four feet, three and a half feet off the ground, full of ice. Looks like if you were to say what a horse trough times two, something like that. Something like that. It's got to be maximum low fifties, something like that.

I think it's about today. It's probably about 38 degrees. Oh my God. All right. So we have two mics on the floor. I'm hoping won't explode or melt down. We have the H4 and the H6. And we have water, ice, heat. Nothing could go wrong.

I'm looking forward to it. So Rick, I was hoping perhaps we could start with a discussion of your physical transformation. And I'd love for you to perhaps just describe to people, I mean, you're, in my mind, the sort of the picture of fitness in a lot of ways now, and we've been paddleboarding before and you summarily whoop my ass every time we go out. I'm always impressed. There are a lot of things contributing to my, my lack of competency and fear there. But,

uh, where, where were you and how did you end up undergoing this, this physical transformation? Because you've lost how much weight at this point? How much fat? I lost at the peak moment. I lost the between 135 and 140 pounds.

And I always thought I was eating a healthy diet. I was vegan for 20-something years, and all organic, vegan, really, you know, very strict with what I ate. And doing that, I got up to 318 pounds. And I read a book by a guy named Stu Middleman who ran 1,000 miles in 11 days, and I remember reading that and just thinking, wow, it's like I can barely walk down the block. And this guy ran 1,000 miles in 11 days, and it just seemed so inspiring.

So I read his book, and in the book he talked about a guy named phil maffetone who i'd never heard of before and he said in stew's book he gets to the part where he said well i met this doctor phil maffetone and he changed the way i trained and he changed the way i ate and he changed all these things and then all of a sudden i was able to do all these things it's like okay i want to find ph to find Phil Maffetone. So, um, I, I found him online. I sent him an email and he was, um, living in Florida. And I asked if, if, you know, I could become his patient. And he said that, uh, he had just stopped treating patients and retired from being a doctor. It's like, that's terrible news. But the reason he decided to stop being a doctor was he decided to become a songwriter.

And I said, oh, it's interesting. Funny you should mention that. Yeah, it's like I'm involved in songwriting and the music world. Maybe we can trade. Maybe I can help you with your songwriting and you can help me with my health and fitness. And he liked the idea and we ended up meeting a few months later and then met several times and became friends. And then he eventually ended up moving into my house and lived in my house for about two years. And I did everything he said, and I got much healthier. My metabolism got turned on.

The hours that I was sleeping shifted. For most of my life, I stayed up all night and slept most of the day. And when I was in college, I never took a class before 3 p.m. because I knew I wouldn't go. And this was at NYU? At NYU. So I'm used to living a night lifestyle. I remember even in high school, I missed the first

three classes of school so many times that it was really an issue. But it was just I'd learned to be up on, I'd learned to be a late night person. And it kind of suited the music life like it worked well with my life. And one of the first things that Phil suggested when we got together was, um, I slept with blackout blinds and I usually didn't leave the house until the sun was setting. And he said, from now on, when you wake up, I want you to go outside. Oh, as soon as you wake up, open the blinds and go outside, naked if possible, and be in the sun for 20 minutes. And when he said it, I remember thinking it'd be the same as him saying,

I want you to jump off this ledge. It sounded like the most terrifying, based on the way I lived my life, that just sounded terrible. What time was he recommending that you wake up? most terrifying based on the way I lived my life. That just sounded terrible. Right. Um, what time was he recommending that you wake up? Well, he,

by the time we started, it kept moving down and it, and it, um, it went from three o'clock to probably noon to 11 to nine. And it just sort of happened naturally. And he knew that if I immediately went in the sun, that naturally my body would want to start waking up earlier

and going to sleep earlier. It was the first time ever that my circadian rhythm was kicking in. I never knew that there was such a thing or knew what that was. So he got me to connect to that. And I did everything he said, changed my diet, started eating some animal protein. I was, as I said, a devout vegan, so eggs and fish were the first things that I would eat. And even then, I never liked eggs and I never liked fish. So I ate them more like medicine. Um, and slowly I got healthier and healthier and healthier and, um, more and more fit,

but I was still very heavy and I was heavy for a long time. What age were you when you brought him into your house or how long ago is this? Yeah. I'm going to guess. I'm going to guess I was probably late thirties. And how, if you don't mind me asking, yeah, it's like 10 years ago, 10, 12 years ago,

something like that. So you, you were changing your diet. What were some of the other things that he had you change? He had me do 20 minutes of low heart rate exercise, aerobic activity every day. And he had me start wearing a heart rate monitor. And my heart rate, I would get into, for me, walking up a flight of stairs would be an aerobic activity.

So I had to really watch what I was doing to stay. An aerobic activity, yeah. So I had to work hard to stay in the anaerobic space. Or the aerobic space, you mean. In the aerobic space. Below that anaerobic potential. Yeah, it's getting, you mean. In the aerobic space. Below that.

It's getting hot in here. Yeah, it's getting hot in here. Time to take off all your clothes. My hands burning holding the mic. I tried to wrap them in napkins. I remember you did mention those might get hot, but sorry. I digress. So to stay within the aerobic threshold, you had to work very hard.

Yes. And again, my health changed, but I still stayed very heavy. And after two years of time, I probably lost a little bit of weight, but not much. But I was much healthier and much more alive and much better than I was before. And after that period of time, Phil said to me, you know, anyone else who made the changes you made out of everyone he's ever dealt with 99% out of a hundred people, you know, 99 out of a hundred people would have dropped all their weight. For some reason, there's something else going on with you that's holding onto the weight. So, and so I just accepted that that's how it was.

But at least I felt a lot better. My life was a lot better. I was a lot happier. And then a mentor of mine whose name is Mo Austin, he's a guy who ran Warner Brothers Records for 35 years. He worked for Frank Sinatra. Real inspiring guy in the music business. He suggested, I went out to lunch with him one day,

and he said, you know, Rick, I'm really worried about you. I know you watch what you eat, and I know that you walk on the beach every day and exercise, but you're really getting big, and I'm worried. So he said, I'm going to get the name of a nutritionist and I want you to go to my guy and I want you to do whatever he says. I said, okay, fine. Like I, and I knew it wouldn't work because I knew that my whole life I had a weight problem my whole life. I've tried every diet and nothing ever worked. And, um, but I, you know, I would do

anything for most. So I went again, open-minded, but not believing it would work willing to try, but not believing it would work. And, um, the nutritionist put me on a high-protein, low-calorie diet, and I'd never done a low-calorie diet before. And over 14 months, I lost 130 pounds, 135 pounds. Yeah, and that changed everything. And I will say, if I didn't do the work with Phil first, I don't believe that the diet would have worked. It was sort of a combination of things in order. It was like the metabolism got turned on. I started being in tune with circadian rhythm.

I was stimulating my aerobic system every day. Um, and was, I built a base and then with the right diet was able to drop the weight quickly. Well, what's so interesting about that. And I have a couple of more questions about what the nutritionist prescribed, but is that in my experience with say tens of thousands of readers following various diets, including the slow carb diet, it makes perfect sense because you were, you were adding things in, in the beginning, as opposed to having everything prohibited and you're adding elements in. And then once you've added those lifestyle components, uh, at that point you were able to, to change the, uh, the diet and then experience the, uh, wow, that is hot.

It is hot. It is hot. I was going to say, even with Phil, though, I changed my diet. It just was like almond butter was something that I was allowed to eat because in Phil's world, almond butter is healthy. So I probably ate a third of a jar of almond butter every day. That's my issue with things like almond butter. These domino foods you have. Exactly. So the idea of Phil has a belief and so many people have a belief that calories don't count.

And I understand that. But if you eat 10,000 calories a day, you're probably going to gain weight. You're not going to lose weight. So it's like there is a point where calories do make a difference. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, there are cases where if it's a question of between 4,500 and 5,000 calories, it's like, okay, yes, bourbon calories, sugar calories, and fat calories are very different. But if you're eating 10,000 calories of almond butter

before you go to bed, which I will do if I have almond butter in my house, then best not to have it in my house. So when you lost the 130, 140 pounds over that period of time, how many meals were you eating per day and how many of them were whole food versus liquid to lose the weight? I was having seven protein shakes a day that were, um, high protein things. They were like, uh, egg protein. J Rob egg protein was one of them. Uh, Tara's way, way protein was another. And, um, did you alternate those or combine them? No, at first I did only egg and then the, the way came later. And, uh, at first I couldn't tolerate the way for some reason that the way made me uncomfortable. Once I lost a bunch of weight, I could eat the way. Um, so egg was first.

That makes, that also makes sense i mean having any amount of lactose or dairy reintroduced after being vegan for such a long period of time yeah a lot of people have noticed who say try to reintroduce animal proteins feel sick but it's because they they lack the enzymes at that point after say 10 years of not consuming meat to digest it properly uh do you want to do an ice round or do you want me to do an ice round? Because I feel like I'm getting close. Yeah, I'd say why don't you do an ice round and then I'll do an ice round because you're at higher elevation.

I'm sitting on the floor for those people who can't see. Yeah, this is no joke. Oh god even 200 it's not even 200 it's about 190 holy crap 195 degrees in here all right so hopefully we'll be up to about 220 oh good lord 220 that's uh yeah that's a well-done steak right there. It's very well done. All right. I will hang out in here, and I will see you out there in a minute. I'm holding both mics now. I'm sitting on the floor. Two containers of water, and I have a Russian spa hat on. They make you look somewhat like the Keebler elves. And mine has a lion on it. And

I have to only guess the Cyrillic says spa lion, which is appropriate because I think of myself as a spa lion. On a related note, folks, if I do dive heatstroke in here, it's been lovely knowing you, and I'm going to press stop now to save my breath for the ice round.

We'll be back. And we're back. Refresh refreshed after some, I think we're getting colder adding ice, but it was at about 44 degrees Fahrenheit. So, Rick, you had mentioned this gent or doctor or lady from UCLA. Who was that? The doctor at UCLA who helped me lose the weight's name was Dr. Heber, H E B E R. And he really, um, he's of, of everything I tried, nothing ever worked until Dr. Heber. And do you still follow the general diet or have you been able to, after losing that weight, uh, modify that. I've, I've modified it in that I still, um, eat a lot of protein and don't have any grain. Um, yeah, really not no carbs and, uh, keep, while I probably don't restrict calories as much as I did in the weight loss phase,

I'm aware of it. I'm aware of them and don't let them get out of control. Right. You've developed a sensitivity and awareness. And for a period of time I used an app. Um, I think it was called fitness pal, if I can remember correctly, where you put in all the food that you eat and it tells you the calories and just kind of keep a log. And what was just helpful about it is if you pay attention to calories for, let's say, a we're following something like the Atkins diet, for instance, you develop a sensitivity to hidden sugars and carbs. And sort of net carbohydrate. So I'd love to shift gears a little bit and ask you about music producing.

Let's perhaps take even a step back and ask, when people ask you what you do, how do you answer that question? I don't know how to answer that question. You don't know how to answer it? No. So what does a, let's perhaps start with definitions then. What does a music producer do? For those people not familiar with it.

Well, I don't know what music producers do. Okay. I can tell you what I do. Okay, let's do that. Which is I help get the best performance from an artist, help them pick their material or develop their material, and help set the course for the direction of what they're doing creatively. And how did you end up initially becoming involved with that type of work?

I don't know how you usually do, and I guess you can do it in many different ways. Some people might start as a recording engineer and then graduate to a record producer. Some people might be successful artists and then transition into being record producers. In my case, I was just really a fan of music, a comedic from the point of view of being a fan. What did you study at NYU? I started as a philosophy major, and then after two years, I switched to film and television because all of my friends were in film and television, and it just seemed like more fun. Was it more fun?

It was. I think it's Natalie Maynard, the Dixie Chicks. Yeah. It said, and this is paraphrasing, but that you let music be discovered, not manufactured. And this, this, what does she mean by that? Or what do you think she means by that? Well, we have we try to go on a journey and let the artist discover who they are. And in the process, um,

the best art comes from them. It's like getting to be their true selves and trying to take away all of the... There are so many things that get in the way of the artistic process. For example, any commercial considerations usually get in the way. If you're thinking about making music that's going to get on the radio, chances are you won't be using your, your own voice to its, um, most potent, um, most singular, um, you know, finding what your personal gift is. So that's one of many things. It's getting closer to the source and not being distracted by any nonsense

that would get in the way of the art being as good as it could be. What are other things that get in the way of artists producing their best work? Hmm. Concern about what other people think, uh, competition,

wanting to do better than someone else. Um, see what other things self doubt. Um, let's see, what other things? Self-doubt. Um, ego. What manifestation of ego? They might not be willing to edit themselves enough or work hard enough at, you know, if I can write ten great songs in five minutes each and those are the best songs and I'm just going to record them and put them out, then those might not be as good as the ones that you develop over a longer period of time, for example. That might be an egotistical artist who thinks everything I do is just great. When you have the opposite, when you have an artist who is doubting themselves, how do you help them through that?

Or what do you recommend? Yeah. I have a lot. I mean, just speaking personally, I have continuous self-doubt as a writer. I think most artists do. That's more of the more typically self-doubt is the case. I think if your goal is to be better than you were, you know, if you're competing only with yourself, it's a more realistic, um, it's a more realistic place to be. You know, if you say, I'm, I don't want to write songs unless

I could write songs better than the Beatles. It's, it's a hard road. But if you say, I want to write a better song tomorrow than the song I wrote yesterday, that's a realistic, that's something that can be done. And if you write a better song than you wrote yesterday every day, then you continue to get better and better and better. And it really is small steps. And also trying not to think too much because so much of it is more of a the job is

it's more emotion and heart work than it is head work. Like the head comes in after to look at what the heart has presented and to organize it. But the initial inspiration comes from a different place, and it's not the head, and it's not an intellectual activity. It's more inspiration. So the key first is to really do whatever activities you can to tune into inspiration and things like meditating help and diving into art in

general. It doesn't have to be even your modality. I mean, going to museums and looking at beautiful art can help you write better songs, reading great novels, reading great works of art. Seeing a great movie could inspire a great song. Reading poetry. So I would say being in, submerging yourself in great art and the more you can do to get out of the mode of competition where you're looking at what other people are doing and wanting to be better than them or be inspired by them. I'd say the only way to use the inspiration of other artists is if you submerge yourself in the greatest works of all time, which is a great thing to do. If you listen to the greatest music ever made, that would be a better way to work through

to find your own voice to matter today than listening to what's on the radio now and thinking, I want to compete with this. So it's more like a stepping back and looking at a bigger picture than what's going on at the moment. Speaking as someone who is not very well-versed with music, I don't feel highly literate when it comes to music. I enjoy music, but, uh, hanging

out with, with you and Neil Strauss, certainly I feel like I'm lacking perhaps vocabulary to, uh, and a lot of references. Are there any, for people who feel like they're in my shoes, are there any particular albums, uh, that you would, you could offer as a, as a starting point, not the end all be all, but just as a, as a starting point for appreciating a good world-class contemporary music, meaning not necessarily could be classical music, but are there any recommendations? I would, I would just start by listening to the,

the greats, which you can look at, like, um, if you look at search online for mojo's top 100 albums of all time or Rolling Stone's top 100 albums or any trusted sources top 100 albums and start listening to what are of the medium of music, say a specific film or a specific trip or a specific book that catalyzed a breakthrough in the work that you did? Let me think about that for a sec.

Yeah, I wouldn't say breakthrough, because it's a more personal thing than that, so it doesn't come as much from the outside. But I get inspiration every day, you know, every day from either what I'm reading or watching a sunset or noticing the amount of birds that fly overhead and what they look like and their different shapes and paying attention or hearing the sound of the waves. All of those things speak to me. When you're looking at the horizon balance that we see in nature. That's sort of the perfect version of, you know, if you can make a piece of music that can take your breath away as much as a beautiful sunset, you've done well.

So, um, you know, any opportunity to see dolphins swim or see, you know, see something beautiful. That's not your run of the mill experience, or even could be a beautiful cloud filled sky. Um,

we're, you know, on a particularly clear night when you can really see lots of stars. Those are all inspiring things and help turn on the muse of recognizing kind of a greater vision of either what's possible or what's beautiful than, you know, something that you see in a magazine that's, you know, advertisement that they're to entice you to buy it. Right. And was, can you talk a little bit about the, when you realized that you were good at working

with musicians or music? When did, uh, when did that happen? Yeah. When did that happen? you realized that you were good at working with musicians or music? When did, when did that happen? Yeah. When did that happen? And are there any particular, whether it's instances or artists where you're like,

wow, I think I might actually have a knack for this. Well, I started right from the beginning. I started having a lot of success and it, um, I did it. I really made music as a hobby while I was in college and thought I would have a real job and then I would make music as my

hobby and I thought I would have a job to support my music habit and then the first album I produced was by LL Cool J he was 16 at the time and I think it cost us about $8,000

to record and sold 900,000 copies. And that was a good start. And then the second one was Beastie Boys, which I think sold, I don't know, 9 or 10 million. And from then on, just a lot of records sold a lot right from the beginning. So I'll say it took a long time for me to understand that that doesn't always happen. It's an unusual series of events. But after a long time of working with a lot of artists and seeing a lot of success, it became clear that I could support artists in doing good work, and people seemed to appreciate it. What are some of the things or characteristics that make you perhaps different from other people who work with musicians?

It's hard to know because I don't know so well what other people do, but I don't think we do the same thing. I think there are some producers who make beats for artists, and there was a time that I did that early in my career. I did that early in my career. I did that. Still, on occasion, we'll do it if it makes sense with the project that I'm doing. I think it's unusual that I get to work in lots of different genres

and get to make heavy metal records and rap records and country records and spiritual records, all different kinds. I think that's unusual and just lucky. And I think that might come from the fact that I come from it from that fan perspective. And I like all kinds of music, and I get to examine them. And the fact that I've been able to work on so many different kinds of music over such a long period of time gives me a good perspective

because when I come into a new project, it's rare that I'm going to the studio to work on another of what I was just working on. So let's say, for example, I was a heavy metal producer and all I did for the last 30 years was produce heavy metal. I don't know how fresh those records would be today. But now if I get to produce a heavy metal record, like the last one I did, I guess would be the last black Sabbath album. It was really fun. Cause I hadn't made a record like that in a long time.

And it was a brand new experience. And I was 13, 13 was the last one. Yeah. And, um, that was a great experience. Really fun.

Never worked with those guys before. And we had a great time. So I'm not sure I ever told you the first time I ever saw the name Rick Rubin was actually on the inside of an audio cassette. It was the first heavy metal album I ever bought, which was Rain and Blood. Oh, that's a good one. And I just remember not having – this was pre-internet, of course. And I was just told by my friends, you have to – you will love heavy metal. You should listen to heavy metal.

And I asked what the hardest heavy metal was that could possibly be found. And Rain and Blood came to the lips of those I asked. And I just remember listening to, I think it's Angel of Death, the first track on that, and going, oh my God, what have I gotten myself into? And just fell in love with that band. But how did you go from hip hop to say Slayer? It's, it's, uh,

stylistically so different. It would seem, but how did Slayer come about? Yeah. As I said, it, because I was coming about it with no technical skill, it's not like I knew about hip hop or I knew about heavy metal.

I was a fan of music and I about heavy metal. I was a fan of music and I loved heavy metal and I loved hip hop. So it was more that coming at it from this appreciation and as a fan, knowing what I wanted to hear, knowing that, you know, especially in the case of Slayer, Slayer were an underground metal band who had two albums out on an independent label and were kind of considered, you know, the heaviest band in the world. And when we signed them, there was this terrible fear that Slayer, now doing their first album for a major label, it was going to, you know, they were going to sell out.

Get watered down. Yeah. And which happens all the time. And then the album that we made, Rain and Blood was much harder and worse than anything that anyone ever heard before and it really did come from that I always liked extreme things

and they were extreme and I wanted to maximize it I didn't want to water down the idea of watering things down for a mainstream audience I don't think it applies. I think people want things that are really passionate and the best version that they could be. And often the best version they could be is not for everybody.

The best art divides the audience where, you know, if you put out a record and half the people who hear it absolutely love it and half the people who hear it absolutely hate it, you've done well because it's pushing that, that boundary. If everyone thinks, oh, that's pretty good. Why bother making it? You know, it's sort of, um, doesn't, it doesn't mean much. Lost in the slipstream of time almost as soon as it comes out. I'm going to do a round of ice if that's all right. Absolutely. All right. Let's do round of ice if that's all right. Absolutely.

All right, let's do some more ice and we'll be back. Okay. We are, we are back. And I'd love, I'd love to talk a little bit about say, for instance,

LL Cool J versus Slayer is the way in which you work with those two groups of creatives or in the case of LL Cool J, I don't know how many people were involved on his side, but is, uh, those two groups of creatives or in the case of LL Cool J, I don't know how many people were involved on his side, but is, uh, is there a different approach when giving feedback, when trying to cultivate their ability? It's really different with every single artist and it's, um, you spend time with the artists, you get to know them. And if you, if you listen to people, if you really listen to what people say, usually they tell you everything. If you really listen and pay attention to what people are saying, they'll let you know a lot of stuff. And I just really pay attention to what people say.

And through that, I can then reflect back thoughts that they've told me about themselves that they don't know about themselves and allow them to unlock those doors to get to the places they want to go artistically. Are there any particular examples of that or a story that you could share? Hmm. The first story that comes to mind isn't related to my music work, but it's related to our friend Neil. And just the journey that led to his new book that's about to come out started through him

complaining about something going on in his life that he thought was something that he wanted in his life. And I don't think that he knew that the thing that he wanted was making him unhappy. And through that conversation, he decided to examine that. So that would be an example. It would be the same thing as that. That's the first one

that came to mind, maybe, because we both know Neil. Right. You seem very obviously philosophical, philosophically minded, very calm. And I should thank you also. You and a friend named calm. Uh, and, uh, I should thank you also, uh, you and a friend named Chase Jarvis, actually, uh, he's a world-class photographer, the people who got me into

meditation, uh, consistently with TM. So thank you for that. But have you always been very calm and, uh, I mean, it doesn't, you seem very unperturbed, very unfazed by anything that I've observed. Is that an illusion, or have you always been that way? I'm very lucky in that I learned to meditate when I was young. So I started meditating when I was 14, and I um, a lot for a long time. And through that, I think it has really, um, even, even though I'm not always calm, uh, on the inside, it has at least given me an air of calm and maybe a comparative to other people I've probably come. I know sometimes internally I can get disrupted.

What do you do when you get disrupted? I try to do something like often exercise will make me feel better. Meditating will make me feel better. Ice bath is the greatest of all. King of mood elevators. It's just the magic. It's on ice back and forth. At the end of the fourth or fifth or sixth round of being in an ice tub,

there is nothing in the world that bothers you. It's true. It's very true. It's just like the world is a great place. What are the types of things that disrupt you? Are there any particular patterns? Hmm. I would say usually work things or political related

you know political type things related to work could really bother me they don't fit into my realm of the way I look at life. So I get surprised by those things. Just having to manage, say, the various relationships within a label or something like that? Yeah, I would say more like dealing with business people can often like, wow, you really think

that? You really want to do things that way? It's surprising. How do you, uh, how have you designed, what are some of the ways in which you've designed your life to say, not have to contend with as much of that as possible. Well, I always really try to focus my life around art. So I consider my job, even though there are other parts of my job, I consider my real job, the reason I'm here, is to sit with artists, talk to artists, help artists be better at what they do.

And if I'm not doing it with an artist, I'm doing it with something else. My goal is to make things as good as they could be. Either make whatever it is. I mean, I'm to the point of where I've gone into visit friends in their office and I rearrange the furniture in their office because I'm insane. You know, it would really look better if you move these things this way and you could see the sun coming in through the window here and if you open these blinds and turn this around, this place would feel much more comfortable.

When you think of the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind? It's not such an easy question to answer. Because, I mean, so many things go into what makes someone successful. What are some of those things? I would start with somebody who's happy. I know a great many people who are financially successful and not happy. So I would rule all of them out to start with.

Let's see. It's not coming so easily. I have to think about that and we'll come back. We can come back to it. How do you, this is a big question, but I'll, I'll ask a very self-interested question. So I'm 37. Of course we've both spent a lot of time around Neil. And I'm not going to spoil the secret because Neil would have going to apoplectic shock. But the next book I'm looking forward to. I just thought of a couple of examples of people who are successful. Let's do it. A good example of someone who's successful is Don Wildman, our friend from the beach. Whom I still have not met.

Yeah, okay. Amazing. He's 80 years old. He did 23 pull-ups on the beach the other day. He's in the Senior Olympics. He retired in his 50s because he wanted to spend his days enjoying life and exercising. And he's one of the most inspiring, uplifting, great, successful people on so many levels, on so many levels.

He'd be probably the first one I think of. Laird's another great example of someone who I would think of as successful. He's a successful human being. And this is Laird Hamilton. Laird Hamilton. For those people who are not familiar with Laird, pretty much, I'd say, uncontroversially thought of as the king of big wave surfing, among other things. Yeah.

I mean, it's not uncommon to hear him referred to as the greatest athlete on earth. He's real, you know, so many athletes of so many disciplines think of him as the best athlete. Also a king of steamer and ice pads. I first started doing the sauna and the ice when they're... Anyway. I first started doing the sauna and the ice when they're anyway, successful. Someone who enjoys their life, um, is great at what they do is curious and continually pushing forward and

wanting to be better than they were yesterday without a, uh, without beating themselves up about it. Don, his name has come up so many times. What are some of the things that you've learned or picked up from him and adopted for yourself? He just seems so positive. And so it seems like nothing gets to him. He's, um,

he can, he can push through anything that's in his way and all the time with a smile on his face and, um, a positive outlook and, uh, and a curious nature. I don't know how many people that are 80 that every time you meet them, teach you something about something new they've learned because they're so curious about a great article or this great book and you have to read this book and you have to go to see this movie and you have to read this book and you have to go to see this movie and you have to do this. And, um, you know, we just came back from snowboarding in Alaska and you got to go see, it was like, it was unbelievable. And just, it's, he's got a wild life. That's inspiring. I've, I've in the last, I'd say three or four years, particularly after my,

my health scare last year with Lyme disease and everything that came of that tried to surround myself not just with the extremely young athletes and performers, but, for instance, this Polish gentleman and his wife, both of whom are world record holders in Olympic weightlifting. But what's so fascinating is how relatively injury-free and mobile they still are in their they're in there, I'd say early sixties at this point. Amazing. And I've tried to really try to spend more time in the last few years modeling what those people do. Uh, do you have a book or books that you've gifted often to other people? Um,

there, there are many, um, There are many. short pieces that could be, could look at them as poems, that if you were to read the book today, you would get one thing from it, and if you pick it up in two years and read it again, it would mean something entirely different. And always on the money, you know, always what you need to read at that period of time. So it's a magic book in that way that

it always fits. I actually took, this is bringing back a memory, I took an entire class on the Tao Te Ching at Princeton when I was an undergrad in East Asian Studies. And it seems on some level that that book does what you do

for musicians, meaning it sort of reflects back truths that they were not aware of themselves or they could not verbalize themselves. Any other books come to mind? Another one that's really nice is a book about meditation called Wherever You Go, There You Are, which is by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

It's a great book if you've never meditated and if you've been meditating for 50 years. If you read this book either way, you will care more about meditation, become a better meditator, and just give insight into why we do it and what the benefits are. Do you have any favorite movies or documentaries? I watch lots of documentaries. Let me think of what's a favorite. Just watched one the other night that was spectacular. New Nick Cave, the English, well, I guess he's Australian, lives in England,

musician, there's a new documentary that's an unusual documentary because it's part documentary and part, I guess, not. You have to see it. But it's called 20,000 Days on Earth. 20,000 Days on Earth. Yeah, so that was the last one that just really like, wow, how great is that? Um, are there any points, uh, have you had any points of, of overwhelm in your length, in your, uh, in your length, in your, that's not a question. I think the heat's getting to my head in your, uh, in your career, it's getting to me because my hand is burning.

Do you experience overwhelm or have you? Yes, I definitely experienced overwhelm. Yeah. Oh, too much going on at one, at one time or, um, often it's, it's's self-imposed. I make it a point to always be there as best as I can be for the artists that I work with and sometimes their needs can overtake my own needs and then I feel overwhelmed because I want to be there for them and then I feel like, oh, I'm not taking care of myself. So finding that balance. What do you do in those situations when you come to that realization?

When I realize it, I'll usually talk to the artist about it and explain the situation. I would say any situation that feels sticky, usually through talking about it with the person that it feels sticky with, almost always it eases very quickly and usually brings you closer together. And do you explain the situation in the way that you just described it to me? Or what is the actual... It just depends on the case, but I might say, you know, I feel really overwhelmed now, this is what's going on with me. Um, can we talk about this later or can, you know, can we readdress this?

Is that okay? Or usually talk about it. How are you feeling? It's getting hot. Uh, you tell me. I'll let you call the rotation of the guards when we go to ice. But I'm very curious. I remember seeing your... I think this is a fine idea.

I will say I will absolve myself of responsibility for hot objects. But your cameo in 99 Problems. Yes. How did that come about? I produced the song for Jay. And then when it was time to make the video, a friend of mine, Mark Romanek, who's a great video maker, made the video. And I think it was Mark's idea. He said, why don't we get Rick in the video?

And Jay agreed, and then they called and asked if I would come. And I love Jay. He's a really great guy, and I thought it would be fun. What are you proudest of as it relates to that track? If it comes to mine, I know you've worked with a lot of tracks. Yeah, I think that just the fact that Jay is one of the most important artists in the world and that that's one of his most popular songs and that we got to do it together is really great. How did you become involved with that song? Or were you involved with the entire album?

I was involved with that song. We went into the studio together. It was going to be his last album, the Black album, his retirement album. And he asked his ten favorite producers to each do one song. And we went into the studio.

That was the first time we worked together and we um we spent a week in the studio trying different things and then eventually came upon this track and uh in the experimentation and he loved it and then the the words came to him sort of magically he sat in the back of the room listening to the track over and over and over again. And after about a half hour, jumped up and said, I've got it, and ran into the other room and did the vocals without writing anything down. that he wrote basically gibberish down on a piece of paper because someone trying to supervise him earlier in his career was so worried that he wasn't taking the recording session seriously, but in fact he didn't write anything down at all. It was just to put them at ease and then freestyle the entire thing.

Is that generally how he operates? That's how he does it, yeah. That's mind-boggling. He's super talented and just a great, great person. Really one of my favorite people. What do you like about him? Everything. He's humble. He's honest. He's a deep soul. He looks at things deeply, understands them deeply, is caring, and

he's just a first-rate person. I think I'm going to get in the ice. All right. Time to move to the ice. And we'll hit pause. If wow is right. Crazy. Crazy is right.

It adds up. It does add up that was a particularly chilly ice bath it's now lower than the minimum measurement which is 40 degrees so i feel like all my skin below my neck is just contracted by 30 it's a good feeling. And you had mentioned this briefly when we were coming in, but who is the person who introduced you to using a sauna? Yeah, the first sauna that I was ever in was a local friend of ours, Chris Chelios, who's a hockey player. And he had the longest hockey professional hockey career of of anyone ever he continued playing professionally until he was 48 years old and um all the people

on the other teams that he was facing at the time were in their 20s so he's really an unbelievable athlete and he um has done sauna every day of his life for the last, you know, since he's been playing. And he could, he believes the reason he had the longevity in the sport and the reason he never got sick and was able to never miss a game and to play for, you know, such a long career was all due to the sauna every day. And he used hot sauna. He was not alternating between hot and cold. He did hot and cold, but he wouldn't necessarily always use an ice bath.

He would do cold showers if not, but he would do 15 or 20 minutes in the sauna, cold shower, 15 or 20 minutes in the sauna, round and round. And how were you introduced to the ice baths? The ice baths came from Joachim Noah, who's my girlfriend's nephew. And he bought an ice tub for Laird because Laird started doing the sauna after Chris started the sauna with our group. We would do it on the beach. Chris has a sauna on the beach, so we would do the sauna even in the wintertime and then

jump into the ocean. And that was how we did the hot and the cold. And then Joaquin suggested we started using the ice tub. And then we started doing that, and that took it to a whole new level. And you've done some very unusual training that sounds terrifying to me, underwater, right? Do you continue to do the underwater training with weights? Yeah, that's something that we do with Laird.

We'll do like 50-pound dumbbells 14 feet underwater. And it's an interesting experience. It's a lot like getting into the ice bath. Like, if you're not used to getting into an ice bath, most people, if you say, get into a tub of ice, they react negatively. They panic. They panic. And when you're underwater holding weights, your brain goes crazy. And it relates to, oh, it's like weight underwater, you die. That's like cement shoes. Right.

So we do all these different exercise weights underwater, and it's really interesting. And keep in mind, folks, don't do this without supervision. Talk to your doctor. But the, uh, what, what is the technique look like? Or an example?

It started, um, Laird has a pool that you can start in the shallow end and walk down to the deep end. And then up the center of the pool, there's a staircase in underwater. So it started with holding heavy weights, walking from the shallow end into the deep end,

and obviously there's a point where you have to take a big breath and hold it, and then you walk down into the deep end, and then you turn around and you walk up the stairs and make it before you run out of breath. And each time you do it, you would make wider and wider circles and get used to being under longer and longer. And then we started adding, once we were completely submerged, start adding maybe curls or shoulder presses

and doing those underwater. And then one day, after we'd been doing this for about a year, Laird came into the gym the next day and he said, I had a dream last night that if we use lighter weights, they'll be heavy enough to keep us down, but light enough where we could get up, where we could jump up to the top. In the deep end. In the deep end?

In the deep end. So you'd be down in the deep end. So now instead of doing one rep and recovering, which was all we could do before, you know, you could do one round, basically, and then be in the shallow end and recover, we started doing these exercises of jumping. So we'd start with maybe 15-pound dumbbells, and you would hold two 15-pound dumbbells, jump into the deep end, sink to the bottom, and jump as hard as you can,

throw your arms over your head, and then kind of do one stroke, pulling your arms down to your sides while holding the dumbbells. And it was just enough to get your head out. And you'd gasp for a breath, and then you'd sink. And we would do that over and over and over again. And, you know, at first, maybe the goal would be to try to get 10 in a row, and it would be really a big deal if we could do 10 in a row. And then, you know, over time, we worked up to being able to do 100 in a row

and then doing it with heavier weights. And then since then, Laird's come up with maybe, I don't know, 50 different exercises that we do with weights underwater, either underwater or in water. And it's wild. He dreams up some really fascinating, not only exercises, but devices. For those people who haven't seen

the foil board, is that what it is? The foil board's amazing. The foil board, yeah. People can Google foil board. He invented stand-up paddling, really. He invented toe-in surfing. He's an amazing... he's got an amazing analytical mind. Do you think, did he develop that in any particular way?

The mind? The analytical mind. I think he's very mechanical to start with. I think he starts with that and very curious and very hardworking. And he's willing to try things and fail at things to be able to do something. So the first day I went to his gym, um, I couldn't do one pushup and really it was through his, uh, his belief and his inspiration that I was able to learn all the different things that I was able to

learn with him. And I remember he showed me one exercise and I couldn't do it at all. And I said, I can't do that. And he said, no, don't say you can't do it. Say you haven't done it yet. And then he'd say, okay, now let's divide it into three pieces. Do the first third of the exercise. And I could do the first third and I'd do the last third of the exercise and I could do that. And I'd do the middle third by itself and I could do the last third of the exercise, and I could do that. And I'd do the middle third by itself, and I could do that. He's like, okay, now put the first two pieces together, and I could do that. And then put the second and third piece together, and I could do that. And then eventually I could do the whole exercise.

But at first it seemed impossible, but he walked me through it. Broke it down for you. Yeah, just taught me how to see past the limitations that I put on myself. What was the exercise? Do you recall what that was? That might have been a jump through. It would be like a burpee with weights where you would, uh, like you do a shoulder press and then you put the weights down on the ground and then hold them,

hold the dumbbells, jump back into a pushup position, then jump up and slide your legs forward through. Right, right. And then jump up into a squat position and then lift up. And that would be one round. That's an intense movement.

What are some of the physical experiments that you're doing these days? Or training protocols that you're experimenting with? There's always so many. I have to think of what's new and different. I've been doing hyperbaric oxygen, and I really like that. That's in a chamber? Yeah. I do the Wim Hof breathing technique.

I just started doing it. There's a Wim Hof 10-week course you can check online, W-I-M-H-O-F. I just started doing, there's a Wim Hough 10-week course you can check online. W-I-M-H-O-F. Just started learning that. He's a fascinating guy. Yeah. He's really into ice. Oh, you can see.

I've never seen anyone more tolerant of ice. I think he has a world record for sitting in a box, basically a cube of ice. And I think didn't he climb Mount Everest just in swim trunks? He has some incredible thermoregulatory capabilities.

Very impressive. He ran a marathon in the desert with no water. That was another one. Just the two extremes of the heat or the cold. The guy's a monster. Yeah.

I really want to get him on the podcast at some point. He'd be a good one. Let's see what else. Those are the ones that come to mind at the moment. What, uh, how do you, just as Laird did for you, when you are working with an artist who believes they can't do something or it's just hitting that wall, what are some of the ways that you help them get past that?

Um, usually I'll give them, um, the homework, like a small doable task. I'll give you an example. There was an artist I was working with recently who hadn't made an album in a long time and was struggling with finishing anything and just had this, like, it was a version of a writer's block, but it was a, I don't know, hard to explain what it was. But I would give him very doable homework assignments that almost seemed like a joke. You know, like, tonight I want you to write one word in this song that needs five lines that you can't finish. I just want one word that you like by tomorrow.

Do you think you'd come up with one word? And usually you'd be like, yeah, I think I can do one word. And then just very quickly, by breaking it down into pieces, like I learned from Laird, and chipping away one step at a time, you can really get through anything. Yeah. Breaking it down into management bites. I remember on the beach we had a zip line.

Not a zip line, you know, the beam that you balance on. Oh, a slack line. Slack line. And Laird was pretty good at it in the beginning, but had never done it before. And he would work for hours. He would just be there hour after hour after hour, falling off and getting back on, falling off and getting back on.

And then of all of the group of people, he was by far the first one who was able to do it. And it wasn't because he just naturally was gifted at it. He knows that anything he sets his mind to learn to do, if he focuses and just continues to not mind falling off and not thinking he's supposed to be good out of the box, learning to be able to do it. That's how you learn things.

I also will say that after having the weight problem that I had for so long, and then finally finding the solution and making the change, it really makes me believe that anything's possible. You know, we can learn, we can train ourselves to do absolutely anything. It's really just getting the right information. If we get, get the right information, we can learn to do anything, whatever it is. Now it doesn't mean we can necessarily, um, be the best in the world at something, but we can be our best at that thing, right? The best version of ourselves and do things that never dreamed of as possible for us. What advice would you give, and I'll ask this for a couple of different ages, but I'll start with your 20-year-old self. What advice would you give your 20-year-old self, if any?

Try to have more fun. Why do you think you weren't having as much fun as you could have at that point? I think I was more driven and, um, I don't know. I want to say almost like I felt like I had something to prove. I don't know if I did have something to prove, but it felt like, I want to say almost like I felt like I had something to prove. I don't know if I did have something to prove, but I felt like doing the work was the most important thing in the world as opposed to doing the work and enjoying the process and, you know, feeling what it was being able to step back and see what it was,

you know, not just be so deeply into it that, um, you know, I feel like I missed a lot of years of my life because I was just in dark room working on music, you know, seven days a week for probably 20 years.

Wow. I recall that makes me think of a story from, uh, Neil Gaiman, the writer when he, I think it was with the success of Sandman, and he was in a huge line of readers who wanted signatures and fans who wanted to tell him stories. And Stephen King pulled him aside and just said, enjoy it. And he didn't. He didn't. He was too caught up in the flow. What about your 30-year-old self?

What advice would you give to your 30-year-old self? I guess I would probably tell myself something that still might apply to me today. I wouldn't have known it at all then. I know it now. It's still not second nature. But to be kinder to myself because I think

I beat myself up a lot. Because I expect a lot from myself, I'll be hard on myself. I don't know that I'm doing anyone any good by doing that. Ah, yeah, that's advice that I need to give myself as well.

When do you tend to beat yourself up? I've, I've, I've made somewhat of a, uh, sport of it. It would seem. Yeah,

it can happen. You know, anytime I can come up with anything that I could be doing to further something and

didn't already think of it and didn't already do it, I might beat myself up about why I've not done that. Now, something I struggle with that I'd love to get your two cents on and, uh, is related to this, which is on one hand, I don't want to beat myself up. On the other hand, I feel like the perfectionism that I have has enabled me to do, achieve whatever modicum of success I've been able to achieve.

And I've heard stories, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but about, for instance, ZZ Top and La Futura and how they worked on it with you from, I guess, I want to say what, 2008 to 2012, something like that. But how they realized the value of you wanting the art to be as perfect as it could be or the best that it could be and taking whatever time and pains necessary to make that possible. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because it's something that I continually struggle with. I want to be easier on myself, but I worry that if I do that, I will lose whatever magic

if there is such a thing that enables me to do what I do. Yeah. I think that ultimately the – I think that's a myth. And I think that your take on things is specific to you and it's not because of your, you've, it's, it's almost like you've won the war and to accept the fact that you've won the war, you have broken through to now you have an audience. People are open to hear, hear what you are interested in, what you learn at, what you're interested in learning about and what you want to share. And, um, you can do that without killing yourself and that killing yourself won't be of service either to you or to your audience.

All right. You know what? Let's – this has been great. I need ice as well. Let's call a close to this. Is there any last parting advice or comment that you'd like to make before we sign off? I think it's too hot for me to know what's even – I don't know what's happening. What's up or down?

Yeah. Very confused at the moment. But I know that this ice bath is going to change everything for the better. All right. Well, on that note, thanks so much, Rick. Thank you. We will both get some ice. I'll let you get out first.