The Tim Ferriss Show - #82: Sam Kass on Trials by Fire and Cooking for The Obamas

Episode Date: June 17, 2015

Sam Kass almost became a pro baseball player. Instead, he pivoted a history major into becoming the private chef for the Obamas in the White House. He then broke into national nutrition policy and was named #11 on Fast Company magazine's 2011 list of "100 Most Creative People" for his work, which focused on establishing private-sector partnerships to reduce childhood obesity to just 5% by 2030. His story is amazing, his career turns are unexpected, and his trials by fire are hilarious. In this conversation, we talk about: - Baseball and the art of fielding - His odd leap to the culinary world and his escapades in Austria - How he met the Obamas - His favorite books, routines, and breakfast eggs - Simple cooking tricks and common mistakes - Nutrition, top-soil depletion, and organic food - Why he doesn’t like black pepper - And much, much more... Show notes (links, resources, books, etc.) for this episode can be found at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast And...please visit the sponsors for this episode! I've used them both. Mizzen + Main makes the only “dress” shirts I now travel with — fancy enough for important dinners but made from athletic, sweat-wicking material. No more ironing, no more steaming, no more hassle. Click here to see the exact shirts I wear most often. 99Designs is the world’s largest marketplace of graphic designers. I used 99Designs to rapid prototype the cover for The 4-Hour Body, which hit #1 New York Times. Here are some of the impressive results. Click this link and get a free $99 upgrade.  Give it a test run… ***If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews!For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Visit tim.blog/sponsor and fill out the form.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

optimal minimal at this altitude i can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking can i ask you a personal question now what is your appropriate time i'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton this episode is brought to you by ag1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement, and the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins,

probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it

out. Go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkag1, the number one, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Last time, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers. And it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday, I send out five bullet points, super short, of the coolest things I've found that week, which sometimes includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self-experiments, hacks, tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers, have asked me for something short and action-packed for a very long time. Because

after all, the podcast, the books, they can be quite long. And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week. It's free. It's always going to be free. And you can learn more at Tim.blog forward slash Friday. That's Tim.blog forward slash Friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast, some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with. And little known fact, I've met probably 25% of them because they first subscribed to Five Bullet Friday.

So you'll be in good company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So check it out, tim.blog forward slash Friday. If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot and you can of course easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss staring out through my window at the eucalyptus

trees swaying in the breeze, but that's enough poetry for this episode of the Tim Ferriss show. The Tim Ferriss show, of course, like every other episode is intended to help you deconstruct excellence, world-class performers to pull out the tricks, routines, habits, books, et cetera, that you can use, you can emulate to improve results in your own life. And guests vary from hedge fund traders to, that doesn't make any sense at all, hedge fund managers to top performing angel investors to people like Arnold Schwarzenegger on the celebrity front, chess prodigies. And in this case, we have not only a chef, but a chef plus policymaker plus would-be professional athlete. His name is Sam Kass. Sam is a fascinating guy.

He went from getting a history major at UChicago. Before that, he was on the professional baseball track, then became private chef for the Obamas, and then ended up the senior policy advisor for nutrition at the White House. He ran or helped to run, as executive director, the Let's Move campaign, which used private sector partnerships to pursue the goal of reducing childhood obesity to just 5% by 2030. And for that, he was named number 11 on Fast Company Magazine's 2011 list of the 100 most creative people. And it's such a multifaceted story. Sam is a hilarious storyteller, and there are a lot of really concrete takeaways. The book that he could not recall offhand in this episode is A History of World Agriculture by Marcel Mazoyer and Lawrence Rudart, R-O-U-D-A-R-T. So in addition to the Art of Fielding, Ottolenghi's books, and some of the others that he mentioned, there you have it, a history of world agriculture. So now without further ado, please enjoy my conversation and our conversation with Sam Cass.

Sam, welcome to the show. So good to be here, man. I'm excited. Yeah, it's an interview that I've been really looking forward to, and I am very, very hopped up on caffeine. This is an Amish morning for me. I know this is – I'm usually a 10 a.m., 11 a.m. kind of guy because I'm a night owl. So I'm going to jump into some morning questions in a second, but I wanted to first congratulate you on the James Beard Foundation Leadership Awards. Thank you. Yeah, that means a lot. James Beard has been an incredible organization.

I mean, they're like the Oscars for chefs, but they've taken up a lot of the important issues around food and nutrition and health and sustainability. So they have an award for that. And yeah, it's a great honor. I'm excited. Yeah. So for those who don't know, the Leadership awards, and this is from their website, quote, recognize specific outstanding initiatives as well as bodies of work and lifetime achievement. So that's a hell of a tagline. And

we're going to get into all that. But first, a very important question. Eggs. How do you prefer to make eggs in the morning? So I actually have been eating a lot of eggs these days. And, you know, the eggs are one of the hardest things to cook. Some of the great chefs in the world, they're actually, their test for a new cook would be how to make an omelet would be like their one master test. So I actually like eggs always, almost always soft though. So either a soft boiled egg, I'll do eggs over easy or really soft scrambled eggs. Um, I guess the, the, the trick for soft scrambled eggs is I, uh, you know, if you get your butter knife, not, I crack the egg straight into the pan, let them cook for a second and then mix them up. And then before you think they're done, take them out. Cause

they'll harden a little bit as bit as they sit on the plate. But I'll eat eggs pretty much any way. And are you a tea guy, a coffee guy, none of the above? Both, all of the above. I'll do coffee in the morning, a little half and half. And then either a little coffee in the midday or tea. And then I'll definitely have some tea at night um some chamomile tea or mint tea or something but uh yeah i i drink them both how do you have any particular like uh do you have any particular type of coffee or way of of prepping or is it

just you know what just treat it as fuel whatever will get me through the day you know i i wouldn't say that i'm like one of those coffee like lunatics who like, you know, is wild, you know, about every specific thing and talks about it like wine. But I appreciate a good cup of coffee. And I really, one of my least favorite things is a terrible cup of coffee. Yeah, I just, I can't, I can't drink it. So I'm a big Stumptown guy, you know, Blue Bottle does a great cup of coffee. There's some really good coffee out there. So I'm a big Stumptown guy. You know, Blue Bottle does a great cup of coffee. There's some really good coffee out there. So I do French press in the morning, real simple, some half and half. Nothing crazy.

What does the – well, actually, I'm going to ask the morning routine question a little bit later on. But you mentioned coffee snobs, and this is kind of a good segue because you live in Brooklyn, but you came from a town that is actually really well known for coffee these days, which is Chicago. Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong. I could get some of my bio incorrect, but you grew up with parents who were both teachers. Is that correct? My dad's a teacher, was growing up.

He worked in the Ford factory when I was very young, and then he changed jobs to become a teacher, was growing up. He worked in the Ford factory when I was very young and then he changed jobs to become a teacher. My mom has been in science education stuff but more from museums and now she's at the National Science Foundation. Lots of teachers. My uncle are teachers, my cousins are teachers, my sisters are teachers. I come from an educational family. What was, uh, what was that like growing up? I mean, how did that impact you or affect you? Um, I, I, it probably was more of how I pushed back against it than how it, that was probably the strongest influence. I wanted to be a professional baseball player from the time I was like three all the way through college, to be honest. And I went to junior

college trying to make it to the major league. So I, you know, as my parents pleaded with me to dig into the books and hit them harder, all I wanted to do was take batting practice and, you know, go after some fly balls. So it came back to me when I transferred in college and then beyond. Do you have brothers and sisters? I have a younger sister who's still in Chicago. Got it. And you ultimately in college ended up at UChicago. And what drew you to baseball?

Why did you play baseball? So I love baseball for a number of reasons. One, it is so hard. I mean, if you are successful 30% of the time for your whole career, you'll be a Hall of Famer. That means if you fail 7 out of 10 times, you're one of the greatest players in the history of the game. And so that constant challenge and constant challenge to get better, something that always

really drew me. It's also a team sport, so you have the camaraderie that is really powerful and those bonds with your teammates. But it's also an utterly individual sport. So unlike soccer, basketball, where if you're having a bad game, you kind of blend in. If you make an error in baseball or you strike out with the bases loaded, everybody knows you messed up. So you really have to take responsibility and you're held accountable for your actions. And I think those kind of lessons of discipline, hard work, but also accountability and learning how to fail.

And even if you failed five times in a row, that sixth time you get a shot at it may be the most important time can win the game. And how do you mentally prepare yourself to walk into that moment clear headed and, and not carrying the baggage from those previous failures, which could, you know, impede your ability to be successful when it mattered. Like those are the kind of things that I just loved about baseball and it really served me well in all other aspects of life. And you had a, you had a very good batting average. I have read that it was ranked among the best in program history at University of Chicago. Is that accurate? Yeah, I haven't checked recently. I'm sure some of the younger guys have taken over. When I left, I think I was number three. But we were at U of C for the education, not the baseball, but we had a very good team. I played two years of junior college baseball just trying to get drafted, where basically all I did was play ball.

Six hours a day, seven days a week, literally, and sprint training in the morning. That's all we did. So U of C was a little different. It was two hours a day, five days a week. And I'll never forget the first practice when Coach outlined our schedule and said that on Thursdays we didn't practice because we had science labs. I just almost passed out. I didn't even know what he was talking about. Science labs, not baseball?

So it was an adjustment for me. But it was one of the greatest things. Probably the best decision I've ever made was to go there. And well, like you said, I mean, if you go to say Iowa for wrestling, I mean, wrestling is your career in college. Academics are secondary. But at UChicago, you have obviously very strenuous academic program. What did you do that other players didn't do that allowed you to not only make it through UChicago and the academics, but to have that high a batting average or that good a batting average? That's a good question. I'm not exactly sure I know a definitive answer to that. I mean,

I had come from such a rigorous baseball background where a lot of the other guys were, you know, came for, you know, were sort of playing baseball secondarily, that, you know, that part came really easy to me. And, you know, I think the part that was a real adjustment that I could learn from them was like how to really hit the books in a way that I had never had to hit the books before. And how do you organize all that classwork? And, you know, the expectation is you're supposed to read like five books a week. I mean, I mean, that was like absurd to me going in. So, you know, I learned from them about how to balance that side of it. And from my side, you know, I think the discipline and how do you efficiently use your time, both in the, you know, in the gym, in batting practice, like how do you make the most of what you're, you know,

what you're trying to get out of it, I think was something that I could bring, you know, to the guys and was able to be successful on both sides. And the major you ended up choosing was history? Was that an immediate choice? Did you know you wanted to do history? How did you arrive at that? You know, I looked at a couple other majors. But I arrived at history because, you know, at the time, there's a lot of things swirling in politics, there's a lot of,

you know, there's a lot of work, there's like, you know, the first Gulf War, and there's a lot of things going on that that I was paying attention to, that I didn't really understand what was happening. And, and I and I realized that if I wanted to understand the world around me and politics and everything that was happening, having a much better grasp on history and where these things have come from was going to help me. And I think that really propelled me to focus in on history, which I love. I'm a history geek. Do you have any favorite history books or biographies? Oh, man, that's so tough. That's so tough. I don't know if I have one. I'll tell you,

I like some obscure ones, and I've got to get to the author, but there's a history of agriculture book that completely changed my perspective, and it's kind of boring, but when you look at, if you're a geek and you look at the impact of simple tools have had on our society, the transformational shifts, like we forget how fundamental that stuff is. So I'll get back to you on that. There's so many great biographies and great history books. Cool. Yeah. The, the, uh, I'll put the, the title of the book and so on in the show notes.

So we'll come back to that. All right. show notes. So we'll come back to that. How did you then, this is kind of the missing piece in the SamCast puzzle that I haven't immediately been able to figure out. How did you go then from majoring in history at UChicago to food? How did you become interested in food? So I had always sort of loved food. As a kid, I kind of liked to cook, but I had no notion of ever pursuing it professionally in any way. And when I was at U of C, my friend was a sous chef at this restaurant in Chicago. And I didn't know him super well, but I said, oh, one day, I think I'll go to culinary school when I'm old and just so I can learn how to cook for like my kids and wife whenever they decide to show up.

And he was like, you know, well, don't do that. Just come in and hang out at the restaurant. See what you think. So I went in. It was like an Italian American spot in Chicago. Nothing, you know, nice place, nothing too fancy. And and I loved it. And so I ended up just showing up and like, you know,

scrubbing potatoes and hanging out and trying to learn some things. And the chef said, well, if you're going to keep showing up, I guess I got to pay you. So he did. But, I mean, it was pretty much an unmitigated disaster. Like I knew nothing. But I always work hard. So they threw me on the line to work the pasta station.

And, oh, my God, it was – the dishes that the chef let me send to the table most often came back because they were just unedible. So it was a rough start. But so I had that one summer, and then I finished U of C, and I had one semester left. And I kind of kicked my way into an abroad program. I got waitlisted and made a strong plea with the dean to let me into one of the programs. I didn't care where I went and ended up going to Vienna. And I said to the head of the program, I worked this one summer in a restaurant. I'm interested in food. Maybe there's a pastry shop or something I can go hang in, hang out at once a week or something. Totally casual. So I landed in Vienna and she said, so my husband's

uncle's friend from college son rides bicycles with the sous chef of the best restaurant in Vienna. That's literally what it was. And she's like, you know, he can meet you tomorrow if you're interested. She's like, all right. So I meet this dude, crazy guy, and he comes up to me and says, are you the Yankee who wants to cook on the street? And I said, I am. And he said, all right, well, come to the restaurant tomorrow. And so I did. And it was a Michelin star, like best restaurant in Vienna. It was incredible. I knew nothing about food. And they ended up taking me in and training me sort of old school

European style, like kick your butt until you can you know, until you, you know, can't take it anymore and you figure it out. And, uh, lots of stories from that, from that, from that place. But that's sort of how I really was propelled into it. So, uh, a few things I just want to explain for people, maybe not in the industry. So a sous chef is, I guess that means under chef, right? That's kind of the second in command in the kitchen. Is that fair? Just like sous vide is under, under is, I guess that means under chef, right? That's kind of the second in command in the kitchen. Is that a fair way of putting it?

Just like sous vide is under pressure, I guess. And so there are a lot of stories. I know we talked about one over dinner the other night, and I can't skip it. So could you tell people about your sort of baptism by fire in that kitchen? So many stories. Uh, I think the one, yeah, the, the, the, the fever dream, the fever dream. Yeah. So, uh, so it was December and, uh, and that's the busiest time of the year by far for this restaurant. Uh, and the, um, the guy who did all the fish meats and sauces had to have surgery.

And so the executive chef had to take over for him. And now he was like 40 and was a super talented guy, but was like not cooking anymore. Like he was running things and being out with the guests and, you know, doing his thing. So he was really unhappy about having to cook the line during the most busy time of the year. So he walked in when we got news and was like, all right, Yankee, you're with me. And so he had this huge incentive to teach me how to prep everything as fast as possible because he didn't want to have to do it. So he taught me how to make all the sauces, prep all the meats, cook everything. And so then we would work the service together. But in the middle of the month, on a Friday, the chef came down with

like 104 fever and was completely laid out. And it just so happened that my best friend, who was a Rhodes Scholar at the time, was coming to visit me from England. And so, you know, we're supposed to go hang out. I was supposed to have the weekend off and we were just going to hang. And so he shows up and I'm like, hey man, you're coming with me. I'm putting you in a chef coat like we can't leave. And they had the breakfast cooked, this guy Wolfgang, who was an awesome dude. But he was like doing platters of fruit. And he was a good cook, but he didn't cook dinner service.

He never had. So it was the three of us trying to figure out this dinner service and it was pretty funny uh but the at the end of the night the sous chef said all right wolfgang you got to take the day off um it's it's the two yankees on the stove tomorrow night and like the kitchen went silent like all the cooks were like like they couldn't believe it and so we figured out this system my friends are smart guys so he So we studied the words in German of the different, like, fish and meats and whatever we needed. So the next night we had, like, a great – we were packed. And so the sous chef would call out the order. My friend would take out the fish or the meat, and then I would cook it. And as I'm cooking, on the other side of me, also cooking and facing me,

was the guy who did all the vegetables and side dishes that would go with my meat or fish. And I'd look up and he would just be standing there kind of with his mouth open, completely in awe of what was going on. Because that station that we were working was like what people would work their whole careers for. It's an incredibly prestigious, well-paid position. And here were these two Americans who knew nothing about cooking working in the Michelin star restaurant on the hardest station in the kitchen. It was hysterical. And we made it. Like we basically got through without any catastrophe. And I'll never forget when the last ticket went out, the sous chef, his name was Alois.

He turns around and he said, Yankees, we won. And then like, just in German shouted for bottles of champagne and bottles of beer. And, and we had a good old party that night. It was it was a it was a ton of fun. And I remember hearing this story and just having my jaw drop open because I've had, of course, very limited exposure to food and restaurants. But during the writing of The 4-Hour Chef, when we first met up in DC, I remember going into a handful of restaurants, obviously different restaurants have very different environments. But when you look at a line, not at a Michelin star restaurant, but just at any restaurant during a busy period and like

40 menus open at the same time, it is complete chaos. I mean, you have to be Dr. Octopus to work one of the hotlines. So it's like you guys were kind of yanked out of the audience by the conductor of the orchestra and asked to do violin solos. It's, it's a, I can't believe you guys made it through that. What was your internal self-talk when you got the news or when you walked in for that evening? I mean, how did you prep yourself for that? Because unlike baseball, right, like if you're putting out every three out of ten dishes is working in the restaurant. Like you get punched in the face. So what was your self-talk to get through that? It's a great, I mean, I think the key in a restaurant and the key in any kind of high pressure situation,

like I think 75% of success is staying calm and not losing your nerve. And the rest you figure out but once you lose your once you lose your your your calm everything else starts falling apart fast and in a restaurant situation is the tickets start piling up and like everybody else's is waiting on you so and particularly in this like the timing would have to be perfect because you go up on six dishes and the the guy who's doing all the side stuff has like cooked all this and he's got to get to the next round so your timing has to be right on and if you're too slow all his stuff

gets he has you know it gets overcooked and he's got to cook it again right so you can really throw things off um so i think the key thing was like mentally preparing myself like when something goes wrong you just stay calm and stay the course and i think the other thing one of the first thing the sous chefs taught me like he gave me some really fundamental rules, which have lasted me kind of throughout everything I do. One is the first is never serve anything you wouldn't want to eat, like never serve crap. It's like rule number one, rule number two, which is just true. Just, you know, you can have a high standard on everything you do. Rule number two was when things get really busy, instead of just like,

like plowing ahead and just trying to work as fast as you can and just go through all the tickets, he always would tell me, step back and come up with a plan. So look at which dishes you have and figure out what's the most efficient way to cook them. So if you have five of one thing, don't just cook them one at a time, like get them out, prep them together, and do them together. So those kind of like fundamental rules I tried to hold really close. And you just come up with a good system. I think every great restaurant has an incredibly strong system that when the pressure gets heated, you know, heated up and everything's moving super fast, you rely on that system to move you through. And I think that was key. We came up with a good system to move you through. And I think that was key. We came up with

a good system and out it went. So I know you're not focusing on too many things at any one time, focus on cooking the things that my friend was giving me and it worked really well. It was so fascinating for me to visit different kitchens and look at the layouts and the methods because there were really sort of the internal workings of the executive chef thrown out into this, the architecture of the room and the process and all that. And just being so surprised at, for instance, Alinea in Chicago and how quiet it is. There's no yelling.

There's no screaming. It's more like an operating table. Yeah. there's no screaming. It's more like a operating table. What is the most unusual restaurant that puts out very good food that you've come across in terms of just how it works? Well, the craziest kitchen I've ever seen, like, so I worked at a VEC, which is one in Chicago, one of America's great restaurants. And, you know, it was really a wine bar that ended up putting out such good food that it's won James Beard awards and all kinds of other accolades just because the food ended up just kicking butt, but it was not set up for that at all. So it was a teeny line of three people,

one big wood burning and gas burning, like kind of oven and a little stove. And what people do out of that, it's just what what people do out of that it's just what we were doing out of that was was incredible but the kitchen that's like blows me away the most is the kitchen here in brooklyn actually uh at frankie's 457 it's so tiny it's literally like two guys on two uh induction burners in a space that's like, I don't know, like five feet by 10 feet. And they cook for this huge restaurant at quality. It's like one of my favorite restaurants in America. What was the name again? Frankie's 457. It's unbelievably good. And it's like, you look at these two guys back there with

two induction burners and I just don't know i just don't know how they do it and the menu is huge i mean it's it's still and it's delicious so what people can do out of very small spaces is um is pretty incredible so the for for people who don't know what an induction burner is and didn't correct me for r'm wrong induction burner is basically a stove top that you plug in and you can put on a countertop maybe it's the size of like a large dinner plate i mean it depends on what kind you get but he uses as i understand it magnets to heat metal so you could actually take the pot off put your hand right on the burner and not burn your hand you got to make sure you don't have rings on but um, um, that actually, uh, raises

this, this, this question of kind of elegance, right? Because, uh, one of the questions I was going to ask you later is what, you know, what's the most interesting meal you could make in a dorm room, right? And you could, you could, I mean, induction burners in a five by 10 foot space. I mean, that's basically a dorm room that these guys are cooking in, it sounds like. If you had to limit your herbs or spices to three choices for the rest of your life, what would your three choices be? Herbs or spices? Oh, my God. What a horrible, horrible question. Only three?

Yeah. Or, you know what? I'll give you a little bit of wiggle room. A handful. A handful. A handful. I mean, I'd have to have chilies of some kinds, any kinds. There's lots of kinds. But, you know, some chilies I would have to have.

Any herbs or spices. I'd probably have to take basil and tarragon. I'm a huge tarragon guy. Um, spices. I mean, oh my God, how do I pick just one? Uh, Oh God. I don't know. Like cumin is a big, is a, is a really versatile, big spice. I love pink peppercorns, although I don't know if that makes the cut. Yeah, that's a really hard question. Oh, I know. That's why.

This is to make the shopping list for myself. Now, tarragon kind of revolutionized eggs for me. Tarragon and white truffle sea salt, of all things, which was recommended by a friend of mine. How do you use tarragon? Oh, man, you can use tarragon and white truffle sea salt, of all things, which was recommended by a friend of mine. How do you use tarragon? Oh, man, you can use tarragon on anything. I love it in straight in salads. You could chop it up with some parsley and some basil, and you can put that on fish. I use tarragon on steak. Tarragon, like a little tarragon and maybe a little butter on a steak is delicious um uh anything seafood i find tarragon goes also really well with so you could do if you're doing a pasta like lemon you know a lemon tarragon something seafood pasta filling the blank on

the seafood you pretty much can't go wrong um so i it's it's it's one of those interesting now you gotta be careful because you can use, it's strong. So you can overuse it pretty quickly. But if you use it gently, it's a beautiful flavor. You mentioned steak. What is your favorite cut of steak and why? I guess favorite, I guess I'd have to be a ribeye guy. But I eat a lot of skirt steak, a lot of hanger steak. I love braising.

So, you know, lots of different, you different – the braising cuts, ribs, and such. But if I'm going to have my last steak, it would be a ribeye. When you're cooking ribeye for yourself, just for Sam, nobody else, how do you cook it? Grill. If I'm doing it for myself, but really if i'm doing it for anybody i just throw it on the grill really simple um and like medium rare to rare and olive oil salts and just sometimes pepper sometimes not i'm not a big pepper guy so i don't put black pepper on much on pretty much anything really um but a steak is the kind of the one

thing that i'd be open to that and yeah and away you go nothing nothing fancy and you put the olive oil and salt on beforehand or afterwards beforehand yeah and if i and if i'm gonna do an herb like sometimes i'll put tarragon or some rosemary uh i always do that afterwards because i find that when you put it on before, it just burns and you lose the flavor. But if you hit it afterwards, particularly if you're going to sear it on the grill and then finish in the oven for a few minutes, which is often the way to do it if you have a thick cut, you put that on so it cooks a little bit to round out the flavor, but it doesn't kill the flavor. Yeah, I always um finish sort of sear and then finish at the

oven at a low temperature and uh just let the butter and whatever herbs i'm going to use kind of soak in from the top down yeah uh the so the pet the pepper point you mentioned not much of a black pepper guy but you also mentioned the pink peppercorns so what what would you use pink peppercorns for which i've never used or I don't think I've ever used? Yeah, you could. I mean, so you could use them on any meat. They, like, go great on, like, pork or if you grind them up as a rub on pork or you could do on steak as well. You can do a fun dressing, a salad dressing with them as part of it. But it becomes part of a flavor, whereas, like like for me, black pepper, it's used like

salt, right? And we use it on everything, but salt doesn't, salt becomes part of the flavor. It elevates the flavor. Whereas pepper like layers on top of the flavor. And it's, it always just kind of blankets things for me. And I don't know, I just, I don't, I'm just not a fan, uh, uh, of, of that sort of ubiquitous pepper flavor on everything. Um, so on the flip side, if, uh, aside from tarragon, if someone, if one of your very close friends were to say, you know, I love Sam, but he really overuses this ingredient, what would that ingredient or condiment or herb or spice be? I don't know, probably garlic, but we all are guilty of using garlic too much because it's just so damn good. It just makes everything better. I literally have minced garlic in my

tea right now. I'm not kidding. So yeah, I'm guilty of the same sin oh god uh how did you first meet the obamas um so uh so we're both from hyde park and hyde park is on the south side chicago like where the university of chicago is and and um you know when he was a professor actually i had known him just from the neighborhood and the first, now first lady, when I was in high school. And then, but then lost touch with them for many years and got reconnected with them when I came back from my time in Vienna and then subsequent travels around the world. I sort of traveled for about four or five years through Vienna and then passed it. So I got reconnected with them right as the campaign was getting going. And was that through a VEC or how did you guys end up reconnecting?

So we reconnected because when I was in Vienna, I was actually there illegally. I had no worker's permit or anything and ended up sort of getting run out of town. Yeah, that's a story for another day. So then I spent about four more years past that cooking and traveling, and I ended up getting connected to a family that had a place in New Zealand, and so I cooked a couple seasons down in New Zealand and they were from Chicago. So I, after the second season, I came back with them to, um, to Chicago to work part time. And the, the father of that family knew, uh, the first lady and happened to run into her, um, on, on a plane and they got to talking and,

you know, and he was telling them, telling the first lady about, uh, you know, me cooking for them. And, and, and she's like, Oh, Sam, I haven't seen him in years. And so we got reconnected. And, uh, you know, back then there was no staff. It was basically just them, grandma, little, they had a little bit of help, but not much. So started helping out the first lady as she had to get on the campaign trail more and more when the kids were still very young. And so started helping her out with cooking some better food for them. What meals, what were some favorite meals during that intense campaigning period? Oh, you know, that's all top secret.

I just can't disclose. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You know, look, and during that time and all the way through, I mean, there's never been any interest in fancy food at all. Really simple food that everybody's going to like, you know, lots of chicken or lean proteins, lots of fish. We always do whole grains. So if we're doing rice, there's always brown rice and always, you know, good serving of vegetables. And just, you know, nothing, it's always,

I think the thing that people, you know, think about when they think of private chef, you think, oh, fancy food, but really you're in your home your home right so people don't want to feel like they're in a restaurant and that's same is true in the white house and i think um so we always kept it really really simple um and never never did anything i mean we ate like everybody else eats nothing nothing crazy we'd love a good burger, you know? Um, so things like that. What if, if hypothetically, uh, you had, let's say, you know, five years from now, you decide, you know what, just for the hell of it, I'm going to have a couple of restaurants in Chicago. And, uh, you go back at some point, you're the owner and you, you decide to kind of

hang out at one of the restaurants and lo and behold, the Obamas come in for dinner. And they say, Sam, make us whatever you think. We'll bring back the memories. What would you make them? What would I bring back the memories? What would I make them? That's a great question. I guess the first thing I'd say is it depends on what the season is, because I think one of the keys to great food is cooking with the season um summertime summertime so summertime i'd probably start with the like a really nice tomato salad because um one of the best things about cooking the white house has been the first day's garden and we got to pick you know awesome produce right out of the garden right before dinner so i'd probably start with an awesome tomato salad, maybe do some barbecued

chicken with some good spice. I don't know, maybe some potatoes and just a bunch of vegetables. So we would pick like zucchini and I'd do zucchini and basil, maybe a little eggplant or some peppers. I don't know. It just depends what's going on. We've grown some great corn, so maybe do some really good corn with that. Something like that. What would the tomato salad look like? I love tomatoes.

If you've got great tomatoes, you don't want to do much to them. I think if you don't have great tomatoes, then you've got to work with them some. But you probably should just do a different salad then. I like it with a little onion. And on this one, I typically have a red onion really thinly sliced. One of my big things, I hate thickly sliced red onion. It's like as thin as you can slice it, thinner the better. But actually, in the tomato salad, a white onion finely cut too is good

with some nice olive oil and, you know, like a white balsamic is really nice on tomato salad. It's got a touch of sweetness. And any number of herbs, like, you know, you could do whole leaf parsley and some basil, maybe throw in some like green beans or wax beans in there that are blanched. Something like that, you know, sounds pretty good to me. That sounds great. What other pet peeves do you have aside from overuse of pepper, thickly sliced onions? I love pet peeves. I've got a million of them myself. So what other things make you crazy when it comes to food? I think the thing that makes me the most crazy in food

is just when people try too hard and they try to be something that they're not. There's nothing more that I love than a perfect fried wing or an awesome burger, but I hate when there's food that looks all fancy but tastes like crap. Like, it's like just, you know, if you can do food that's beautiful and super well composed and, like, I appreciate that too. It's not that I don't like that. But if you're just throwing foam everywhere and doing all some weird concoctions because that's sort of trendy, like I hate the trends in food.

I like real just well-executed food. And you can tell it has a lot of love in it and a lot of authenticity in it. And I think that for me is most important. So I think generally that's the thing that determines my experience in eating somebody's food. That was something that really surprised me when I got to know quite a few chefs in writing the four-hour chef was that when they came to visit, say, my house for dinner or someone else's house, the last thing they wanted to have was a five-course meal. The last thing they wanted to have was some type of foam sprayed onto their plate with like tweezer cuisine on top of it.

They're just like, no, just give me like a really fatty burger or something really simple that I can enjoy consuming. Uh, the, uh, what, what made, uh, the White House garden unique? Cause I know that that a lot of thought went into that and I've become, I've never gardened, uh, but I've become very fascinated by it because I I went to this village called Ogimi in Okinawa at one point, it has the longest median lifespan in the world. And I just noticed that nearly everyone gardened in some capacity. Interesting. So what made the White House garden unique?

Well, there's a lot unique about that garden. You know, one is the first garden since Eleanor Roosevelt's Victory Garden during World War II, which was a really powerful, symbolic garden. But it was actually quite small and really didn't produce food to eat. So the White House Garden, the First Age Garden, is really the first garden since the late 1890s that actually produced food. And, you know, it was designed, its whole purpose was to really shine a light on food, where it comes from, how it's grown, how hard it is to grow good food and really lift up farmers all over America that are, you know, producing the nourishment that we need to survive and make it educational. And I think that's really, you know, so it was a working life garden that we ate from every day.

But also we had kids come down for tours on a weekly basis. The kids would come and plant with the first lady and then harvest and cook with her a couple of times a year. We had a compost to really talk about the importance of giving back to the soil, building soil for fertility, which is a huge issue across the country. And we also had the first ever beehive on the White House grounds, which is just awesome. And we got tons of honey, but also could talk to the kids about pollinators and why they're so important. And we have a huge, huge problem with colony collapse disorder. We're losing bees and other pollinators at, you know, really alarming rates,

which have massive implications for our economy and our ability to produce food. So, you know, I think when you look at the whole picture and what it's accomplished, since that garden's been garden planted gardening across the country has skyrocketed. It's up over 30%. Um, and, uh, so it's been, uh, really exciting and, and it was just, it was a ton of fun. And, uh, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important. Uh, the magnitude of the impact of bees is something I, I never really understood and I still need to understand more. But people talk about the butterfly effect and I feel like the bee effect,

sort of the ripple, the cascade of different sort of ecosystem changes that bees are involved with is really astonishing. The second thing I would encourage people to look into is what you mentioned, which is the soil depletion. And I remember at one point, maybe one of the listeners can, can find this, but seeing data that, uh, I believe it was from China that looked at the incidence and frequency of, uh, cancer diagnosis in different regions in China. And you could pretty much predict how much cancer there would be based on, uh, topsoil depletion in different regions because they would end up with trace mineral deficiencies like selenium and so on. Um, and, uh, I remember reading about this at one point of something like in certain areas because of, uh, monocrops, you know, like the

wheat and soy and so on in the U S the topsoil has gone from whatever, 10 feet to like 10 inches. And what do you think needs to be done or what can be done to help reverse that trend? So there's a lot that needs to be done. And I'd say it's a topic that doesn't get anywhere near the attention that it deserves. But everything is based on the health of our soil. It is the reason why we have such a prosperous nation was that we had the best soil in the world. And it helped us produce a surplus of crops, which allowed big parts of our population to go on and build and create and do other things. And the dramatic loss across the nation on our topsoil is something that couldn't be a more important issue, and it couldn't be a harder one to get people excited about,

because it's like, ah, dirt, what are you talking about? There's lots of things that need to be done, And I think they're starting to see some change. I think people are starting to wake up to this. We need to do a much better job at rotating our crops to rebuild fertility. Right now we're basically growing just a couple crops and using synthetic fertilizers to sort of make up for the lack of fertility in the soil. That's a problem. We're having all kinds of problems stemming from that. Runoff in our water, massive algae blooms in the Gulf, killing sea life. There's lots of challenges going on there. So I think we need to rotate crops. I think we need to change our practices

to really focus on rebuilding that fertility using different sources of fertilizer, natural fertilizers. And you're starting to see people taking back some of that land and rebuilding, and hopefully that will continue to grow. And people, I mean, I think are going to continually have to ask, you know, work on, you know, sourcing food that's coming from farmers that are, you know, doing those kind of practices that are more sustainable. I think the thing that people don't realize is that if we use those kind of practices, that is one of the best tools we have to sequester carbon.

So agriculture is not only a challenge when it comes to sustainability and our environmental challenges with greenhouse gas emissions, it's a significant producer of. But actually, unlike other aspects of the challenge, it can actually be part of the solution. And so there's exciting opportunity there that we don't see in too many other sectors that need to change. Yeah, I'm excited about the potential for kind of soil replenishment because I feel like it could be effective in marketing product. Does that make sense? Like there's a, there's a kind of economic self-interest that I think could be harnessed if somebody could create the proper campaign.

Um, what, uh, what do you see or what do you think the future is, if any of, uh, say organic subsidies, uh, for people who really want to, or large companies that really want to produce organic produce, but view it as cost prohibitive or something along those lines? Yeah. So this is obviously a very complicated, complicated question and a really complicated politics. I think the place, and this again, is hard to get people super excited about, but I think the place to really start is in research. So over the last about 50 years, we poured the vast majority, I mean, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars into researching just a

couple of crops. And fruits and vegetables writ large have not gotten, mostly it's gone to corn and soy, some wheat, but mostly corn and soy. And that has allowed corn and soy to be produced much more efficiently than it used to. And so a lot of the price difference we talk about, like the relative cost of, say, sugar and other things versus a fruit or a vegetable is because we figured out how to grow those crops much more efficiently. And so if we invest that same kind of research to try to figure out how to grow fruits and vegetables more efficiently, we're going to make up a lot of the ground. Now, part of the challenge is that the people who are currently growing, say, the fruits and vegetables, no matter whether they're doing it organic or not organic, they like

the fact that they're the only ones growing it. So they not support subsidies for other people to grow more fruits and vegetables. That's interesting. So there's really tough politics because in Washington, if the people you're trying to help are against you, it's going to be very hard to move anything through. It's hard to move anything through if they're with you because there's always going to be people on the other side fighting very hard and investing a lot of money and seeing that not happen. So on this particular one, the politics are really hard to get Congress to shift where we're putting some of these subsidies.

Now, on the organic side, which is a different set of questions, I think the market's going to have to continue to drive the change. And you're seeing organic, you know, continue to grow at a very rapid rate, although it's a still a very small part of the overall food economy. But I think the more consumers demand it, I think the more it's going to get grown, and it's going to become increasingly more affordable for farmers to produce it when we get some more scale there. Yeah, it's such a thorny, gnarly topic. And I would suggest, just as a side note for folks who perhaps want to eat organic but have to pick and choose for financial reasons or otherwise, there's a list called the Dirty Dozen, and I think it might be the Clean 15, which is sort of the 12 items, produce items that are best avoided that have the highest concentrations of pesticides. But I think the research is really, as you noted, super important because it's one thing in the abstract to say organic is better for reasons A, B, and C and avoiding synthetic pesticides. But if someone could actually look at, say, the endocrine impact of estrogenic compounds that are found in synthetic fertilizers that therefore affect

fertility or whatever, then I think it could get more airtime. I will say just one thing on this point, though. I think people should try to eat organic when they can, but I think they need to eat fruits and vegetables first and foremost. So I think part of the thing to be concerned about is, well, I would much rather people eat conventional, any conventional fruit or vegetable than like organic chips or organic cupcakes. And I think we're getting better. People are raising more awareness. Our agricultural practices are getting better, largely because this is getting more and more expensive. So farmers are learning how to be more diligent about their applications. There's obviously a lot longer to go, but there's going to be some things where we're going to need

some insecticides and some pesticides. And I think that's okay as long as they're being used responsibly. But I don't want people, I think part of the thing we need to avoid is sort of fear-based, if you eat this, it's going to kill you because there's just not the evidence there. There's reasons for serious concern and continual engagement and pushing on some of these topics. But it shouldn't keep anybody from consuming that balanced diet that we know is important. There was an article that came out recently by Steve Case called The Future of Food is Food. What are your thoughts on meal replacements like Soylent and so on? So I actually tweeted about that article. I couldn't agree with Steve more.

I mean, Steve basically makes the argument that sort of high-tech, like artificially put together drinks that are based on some science, kind of could replace food. And I think the vision for the folks at Soylent is that they can create a perfect meal. So instead of eating a bunch of junk, you can just conveniently drink this. So I don't hate the sort of the vision there in the sense that they're trying to do something good. But if the future is a disgusting, tasteless, soulless beverage to sustain, you know, just to keep us alive, that's not a future I have much interest in being a part of. I think it lacks authenticity. I think it lacks flavor. I think it lacks happiness and joy. And all of that goes into what a good nourishment means to me.

And I think I see a role maybe with elderly people and others for improved sort of dietary supplement meals like that. But I don't think that's a solution that I, for one, have any interest in participating in. I think real good food grown properly that supports the people who are growing it, that supports the health of the people who are eating it, that also is damn good, is where we should all be driving for. Yeah. I've done an about face on this stuff because I've always been a kind of supplement addict and been infatuated with pills and potions and whatnot as supplementation. But I mean, they're called supplements for a reason. And I've really found that echoing the sentiment of, say, Nassim Taleb wrote The Black Swan and Anti-Fragile. fragile. So he uses a term called epistemological or epistemological arrogance, which is overestimating how much you understand about anything as a human. And I think it's, it's

naive to think I've come to this conclusion anyway, that you can, that we would understand every element of what's in an apple, for instance, or what's in a slice of ribeye. There's so much uncharted territory that it's naive to think we could take the four or five things we've isolated, put them in a pill, and confer the same nutritional benefit, for instance. That's kind of point number one. But yeah, it's a very interesting, it's a very fascinating subject. But I've gone completely in the whole food direction, just trying to consume a spectrum of colors every day, for instance. So can I, I want to add something to that. Because I think that is, on the nutritional side,

that basic point and understanding of our limitations couldn't be more right i mean we've tried very hard to kind of reduce uh our health to one vitamin or fiber or this or that in a very reductionist way and utterly miss the interplay between all of these different vitamins, nutrients, fiber, protein, and also, by the way, completely miss how our body processes it. So it's turning out that, you know, we have 100 trillion bacteria in our gut, 100 trillion, which really what we're doing is feeding that bacteria, which then in turn feeds us. And it's going to, the evidence is emerging that the microbiome, the gut bacteria is going to be one of the most important things to focus on in terms of improving our health. And that we've lost quite a bit of diversity in our gut.

But there's a couple hundred species of bacteria in our gut, a little less. And we are just trying to figure out what does what and how they interact. And everybody's different. The complexities here are just trying to figure out what does what and how they interact. Everybody's different. The complexities here are just overwhelming. We know that they need to be fed a high diet of fiber. Lots of fruits and vegetables is basically what they feed. From birth, for a long time, there was parts of breast milk that babies couldn't digest. We didn't understand.

We didn't think they were important. It turns out, actually, all those elements in breast milk are feeding the emerging biome in the young in the baby's gut which is then gives it deals with the immune system and inflammation all these vital things and and digesting of food so there's like the complexity is beyond anything that we can comprehend right now and i think we have continually like like, over and over, tried to say it was, oh, it's fat is the problem. And like, turns out, okay, wait, that's not the problem. Oh, it's a deficiency in omega this. And okay, well, it turns out, well, that's good. But it's not certainly the panacea that was made out to be, you know, every time we do this, we get it wrong.

And so I, I agree with you. I mean, I think there's some things that have been tested over the millennia and, um, which is that kind of balanced, good diet of, you know, whole grains and lots of fruits and vegetables, lean proteins. And I think that's where, um, we, we were safest is when we stay in that kind of, uh, that kind of space. And I'm glad you mentioned safest because it's not just, oops, I didn't cover all my bases. When you take a very reductionist approach, for instance, when the media got its hands on the so-called promises of beta carotene, people started consuming massive amounts of beta carotene in isolation. It can actually cause a lot of problems when you're not sort of consuming it in its natural environment, so to speak. But I'd love to shift gears and ask

some rapid fire questions. They don't have to have rapid answers. But when you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind and why? Well, two people come to mind. Barack Obama and my father, but for wildly different reasons. I mean, Barack Obama's success to me, I measure based on impact and the amount of impact that somebody is trying to have in a positive way on the world around them, not by money or, but it's sort of what you do with the places you've been given. And, you know, there's lots of legitimate disagreements in politics. And I'm sure there's legitimate disagreements with some of the things that the president has done. But he is, you know,

I know firsthand on a daily basis that here's somebody who's trying to, and has had a massive positive impact on the world around him. So that's something that, you know, I very much look up to and admire and, you know, in my much, much, much smaller way, try to figure out how I can have the biggest positive impact on the world around me. And I'd say, but on the flip side, you know, but that takes, you know, there's a lot of ambition that goes with that and, you know, disappointments when you fail. On the flip side, like success, my father is, he is a, he's a fifth grade teacher, has, he just retired after 25 years. He lives an incredibly humble life and, you know, is a, you know, a union guy growing up and, and, and then a teacher and a union guy and sort of in the school. And he, he, he's utterly

content. He, he has a good community of friends. He's, you know, has roof over his head and, and, and meals on his table in fact when i first looked at a restaurant in chicago he had never spent 20 on a meal for himself which i only found out when i invited him in for a meal at the end of my summer time there um so he's just very content in in like the simple pleasures in the sort of a simple life. And I, and that's something that, um, uh, is, you know, I, I also try to take into what success looks like is, is, is that kind of contentness and being appreciative of, of, uh, of what you have. Right. Having the appreciation, not just the drive for achievement. Yeah. What's what book, uh, or what is a book that you've gifted most often or gifted very

often to other people? Hmm. I've gifted, I've been pushing around the art of fielding over the last year or two, uh, by Chad Harbuck. I love that book. Um, it's like, it's, it's, so it's a baseball theme, but it's really about life and all that goes with it and complexities of relationships. And I don't know. There's something – that book just sucked me in. And I love the feeling of being sucked in, which doesn't happen with that intensity too often. So that was a good one. The Art of Fielding.

Are there any documentaries, documentary films, or movies that have sucked you in in that way? I love documentaries. I'm a big fan. And a good and a great movie as well. The last one I just saw actually just came out, which I really loved called Just Eat It. And it's about food waste. Well, we waste 40% of the food we produce, which is just insane. There's no other major life system that is so inefficient. And it's about this couple that basically for, I forget how long, six months, decides to only eat food that has been wasted, that they find thrown away in some way, shape, or form. And it's an unbelievable story. It's really well done.

It's only an hour. Um, I think it just aired on MSNBC actually, but they, they are having to have to give away food. They find so much of it. Um, they can't eat it all. Um, and it's, so it was very powerful, very well done. Um, but that's the one that's top of mind. I'll have to check that out. That, uh, makes me think there's a book, a book I read a long time ago. I think it's called The Man Who Gave Up Money or The Man Who Stopped Using Money, something along those lines. But it delves into sort of the dumpster diving freegan movement, I guess they call them instead of vegans. Really fascinating. Yeah. What $100 or less purchase has had the biggest positive impact on your life in the last six months to a year? Let's just say. Whatever comes to mind. It doesn't have to be in that time frame. Yeah, the recent purchase.

I got a Kindle recently, which I hadn't had before, which has been great. I know people. I'm way behind the curve and not the highest tech way to read things, but it's been great because I'm all over the place and so that's helped. I also got an ice bucket

and it's made the rosé that much colder as summer is starting to hit and that's been an investment well worthwhile. That's a good call, ice bucket. Yeah. Love rosé. There's a great, you know, I grew up on Long Island. There's a wonderful rosé from Wolfer Estates. Yeah. Yeah. I know that. It's really good. Yeah. The winemaker Roman is just amazing. Not too expensive either. What does the first 60 minutes of your day look like? What are morning rituals, whether when you were at the White House or now, that have been consistent for you?

So pretty consistent basic routine. The one variable in that, I used to do a lot more. I don't do any more. The first thing I love to do from the perfect world is to do a short stint of meditation for like 10 or 15 minutes. It's been hard for me to keep that. It was impossible for me to do that at the White House for whatever reason. I just think mentally quieting and slowing my mind

was just something that I just wouldn't do as hard as I tried. And exhaustion also played a role, but I wake up and, um, uh, work out, uh, five or six days a week, um, do about 30 minutes of cardio and then do weights of various, uh, sort of sets. Um, what type of cardio do you do? So I'll do 10 minutes, uh, on the bike. And then now I'm been doing like 12-minute interval run, and then I'm doing like another 10 minutes in like 12 incline walking at 3.5 on the treadmill. Sometimes I do the elliptical in there and then and then do weights um and then and then uh so the white house it was always

you know take a shower get ready and then i do oatmeal a banana and coffee since i've been uh out of the white house i've been doing eggs um one of you know a couple ways uh some like whole wheat toast maybe some avocado a a little salmon, and coffee. That's been the routine. And then away I go. Do you do anything in particular before bed? I don't have that same kind of routine at night. Often because nights are like much more variable. The morning has always been the time that I take for myself and carve out.

Because after that, it's like anybody's guess what's going to happen. But try to bring down a little bit. But oftentimes, certainly at the White House, I was working until 1, 2, 3 in the morning pretty consistently. So it was sort of like you worked until you fell off, fell off your chair, crawled up to bed and then got up a few hours later and started doing it all over again. So, so I don't have that thing kind of night routine. Got it. And when you, when you meditated, what type of meditation did you do? What did that, what did that look like? So I, so I, the, the woman who taught me is one of the most amazing people I've ever known. What did that look like?

The woman who taught me is one of the most amazing people I've ever known. She was an 80-year-old woman who was actually from France, who I met when I was traveling on the border of Malaysia and Thailand on an overnight train. She was 80 years old, and she had spent the last 20-plus years of her life just traveling with a teeny little eight-pound backpack, and that's all she had. And she went everywhere, and she was just the most amazing person. But she's not like a formal teacher. So just trying to sit up, have good posture, and just fundamentally relax and focus on my breathing is like as sophisticated as i got um and trying to let your mind relax and and repeating that forcing your mind to get back to that state which is you know it's always been such a challenge it's

so hard um uh has as sort of how i would do it for as long as I could. But when I do it, I feel so much better and so much more grounded and sort of calm through the day. But it takes a lot of discipline to carve out the time in any given day. I found for myself, because I meditate 15 to 20 minutes each morning, usually 20. Two things really interesting. Number one, it takes about 15 minutes for me just to let the dust or the mud settle. So I really only feel like I'm meditating in the calm sense for the last five minutes, but I need the 15 minutes just as a warmup or a cool down maybe. And then secondly, that posture I've noticed if I just sit with very good posture and kind of lengthen my spine, imagine my head being kind of pulled up on a string. Even if I don't get to some sublime state, if I just focus and

sit that way for 20 minutes, there's a huge benefit for me anyway. I feel the same way about that. Yeah. Would love to ask some questions from people on Facebook and Twitter who are very excited that we were going to be chatting. The first is a tough one, but it's from Andrew Zimmern. Love that man. He's awesome. Andrew's great. Also has been on the podcast and he wanted to ask some questions because he hears them very often. He gets asked them very often and is always curious how other people answer them.

So the first is, if it's illegal to sell cigarettes to minors or drugs slash booze, why do we let fast food or sugar drinks into schools? Yeah. So great question. So a couple of points. So one, because of the new standards that are in play, there are no more sugary drinks in schools and those are out. And I actually need to give the, you know, the beverage companies credit. They actually voluntarily, voluntarily pulled out most of those beverages around starting in around 2007. But the new standards utterly eliminate all sugary drinks. You can have a low calorie in high school, you can have a low calorie Gatorade, and you can have no calorie

drinks. So diet sodas are allowed in high schools, not in middle schools, and certainly not in lower schools. So those drinks are out. On the fast food side, I have always been pretty appalled that some of these, particularly the less healthy companies, have set up shop in high schools. Now, this is not ubiquitous by any stretch of the imagination, but they definitely exist in some number. I actually need to look and see because their food does not meet the standards unless they're changing their offerings. So I am not sure where they are in the evolution of either what they're offering in schools or if some of them have had to pull out. The truth is I don't know the answer to that, but I'll dig into that and come back to you on it. But I agree.

I think it's really inappropriate to have a fast food, pretty unhealthy restaurant set up in a, in a high school. I find that to be, I've always found that to be very off putting. Cool. Uh, yeah. Would love for people listening who participate on the blog. Uh, obviously there'll be a post with all the links and resources and so on, including things like, uh, you know, organizations like American farmland trust that I've done stuff with if you want to get involved with some of these things. But I would love to hear ideas for what types of campaigns or angles could be taken to remedy that from folks. I do pay attention to the comments. Next question is from Cinema Air.

This is on Twitter. Best use of wine that's too old to drink. So, you know, depending on the kind of wine and, you know, I think there's probably a little magic depending on where you are and how it goes. But, you know, that's how you make vinegar. So, you know, grape juice turns into vinegar, right? So there you could, depending on how it goes, you can use it kind of in that, in that way. A lot of people use it for cooking, but you know, no, no real chef would say you should, uh, if it's not good to drink with, it's really not good to cook with. So the truth is like, there's, uh, there's not much to do with it. I gotta be honest. I would get, at least not that I know of. I'm maybe somebody out there has got a good thing.

But basically, drink it before it goes bad is my best advice to you. And the thing that if you get just one of those simple air pumps with a rubber top that pulls the air out, you add a week or two, depending on the wine, life to it. And that's what I use. We use that in our house. And it makes a big difference. So that's what I use. You know, we use that in our house. Um, and it makes a big difference. So there's nothing worth, there's like one of the worst feelings in the world is dumping out a half a bottle of wine that you didn't get to finish. So I'm paying the vacuum is really cheap and really effective. I, um, I use the same device, uh, on that point, uh, Stefan, I think it's Stefan, uh, Bendel, what should home chefs stop doing? So wasting wine would be one. Wow. What should home chefs stop doing?

Well, there's, there's a few things. Um, what should home chefs start doing? I need to spend more time with home chefs to give you the best answer. I think dragging the knife across the cutting board as a shovel is something that you're never supposed to do. If you need to move the vegetables or scoop them up, use the backside of the knife. But scraping the knife on the cutting board just drives me crazy. It's just really bad for your knife. Dulls it immediately. Something that I cringe at. I think home cooks need to work with heat, not be afraid of heat more. So particularly when you're searing fish, you need that pan hot. And so getting your pan super hot and then putting

your fish down and leaving it and not touching it and letting it get that nice good sear, good golden brown on it before you touch it is key to fish. Most people don't get their pan hot enough, don't heat it, don't ever get it hot enough, don't take the time to heat it, and then play around with the fish, which ends up really hurting its, its ultimate, um, feel. But I think allowing, I think maybe the one thing that's the big difference between a pro and a home cook is that like the, the, the getting real color on things, be it meat or any vegetable that's on the grill or anything you're putting in the pan, like just let it go. When you think it's like ready, like give it another minute or two and like get that really dark dark color on it it adds a ton of flavor when can you tell that your pan is hot enough for that nice sear on a fish so like when you put the oil in like you don't want it to immediately start smoking like then your oil's

done like don't put it in there if it's like you put it in it's like smoke but like you should see the oil get that kind of those lines into that kind of shimmer. And it should just start to give off a little bit of like, you can see just a little bit of smoke. Um, that's when you're, you're ready to go, but it should be like hot. Like when you put it in, it should be like, like, it should be like, go crazy. Like if it's just like a little mild bubble, like you're not, you weren't ready. And what, What type of oil do you like to use with fish, for instance? You can use a lot. You can use olive oil. It has a lower smoke point, but you can get away with it. I like grapeseed oil. It's a great oil to cook with. You can do high heat canola. It's totally

fine. Those are probably the main ones to go with. Peanut oil is awesome, but that's a little expensive. Yeah, I've been playing myself a little bit with avocado oil because it has high omega-3 content, decent smoke point, but it's so rich. Depending on the food, you can easily enhance or completely contaminate what you're trying to make. Next question is from chaos and Nata. Uh, when you fall into a rut in the kitchen, uh, what book resource or person do you turn to for inspiration? Oh, interesting. Um, so I don't, yeah, it's a good, I mean, I try to get out and eat or go to the store or go see and feel and touch and smell is the thing that I try to do when I just sort of feel dead and use the actual ingredients to inspire what I'm going to do. But I'd say the book that I look at, I really don't look at cookbooks a ton anymore, but the one recently that I have is all of Otolenghi's books are awesome. How do you, Oh, wait a second here. I know this name. Uh, how do you spell that name

or the first name? Um, Otolenghi, let me, let me, um, O O T T O L E N. Uh, let me, let me just pull it up for you. Um, O T T O L E N G H I. Um, he is an incredible chef, him and his partner. Uh, actually one is he's, uh, you know, they're a Palestinian and Israeli, uh, uh, team couple. And, um, they have plenty is probably their most famous book, but they have Jerusalem and plenty more. Their books are just spectacular and the recipes are simple, but so delicious. I've definitely cooked a few out of them and they're always, they're always awesome. If someone is new to healthy cooking, where would you suggest they start? What could they start with as anything, yeah. And anything simple they

could, they could use to get the ball rolling in terms of like a dish, uh, dish stocking the kitchen, unstocking the kitchen. It was, it's, it's a general question. So I'd say you can interpret it any way you want. So I think the key is like starting simple. I think people, whenever they approach like, okay, I want to make a change. They think I got to overhaul everything. And so then they try to do a dramatic thing. And then, and then of course it's not sustainable. You can't keep that up. You revert back to kind of who you've been and it, then you just completely stop. So I would think like little things. So one place to start is vinegar. If you want to start small, like getting really good vinegar makes us like a salad go from really uninspired to really delicious.

So one place that I'd actually invest a little, if you're going to invest a little resource in, is getting some really nice vinegar to make really beautiful salads. And salads are like some kind of green, like a good combo is some kind of leaf, some kind of texture, be it um some kind of texture via cucumber or fennel or you know various things acidity so you could add you know any kind of citrus fruit is always great or just a really nice vinegar some nuts of some kind and a cheese of some kind like a parmesan or pecorino or different if you like that kind of basic components it's hard to really make it terrible sometimes cheese can throw you off so you could you know play around with that but you get good texture

you get good flavor and if you have a nice vinegar like the world is yours and that's a really good place to just add some salad on and you know to your dinner is a is a great place to start but i would just try to add a piece of fruit try Try to add another thing of vegetables at dinner. Like if you just start there, those two things. And I think the other main thing to start is drinking more water. There's nothing better than water. The more water you drink, the less sugary beverages you're going to drink, which is really key if you're going to try to live a healthier life. And that's a great place to start. And then from there, you build from there.

Yeah. The water, just to echo that, for people who might be following a diet of any type, slow carb or paleo, whatever, to try to lose fat, if your liver is burdened by even partial dehydration, it's just not going to do a very good job of helping you to oxidize fat. So I've noticed tremendously, even with getting into, say, ketosis, because I'm experimenting with that, the more water I drink, the more I walk, the better off I am, the faster I'll drop into, say, ketosis. But the other thing, just on your point with, um, nuts and cheese, if, if I've, it seems like with almost any dish, if someone wants to impress a dinner guest,

just put Parmesan and sliced almonds on anything. And it looks really, it looks really fancy and it tastes amazing. Uh, and on that note, uh, this is Will McClelland. There may not be a best meal, but what's the best meal to impress a girl with, but it's easy to make? This is, I'm sure a question. This is, guys have a phobia, a lot of guys, of cooking in any capacity. So what would be one meal that might impress a girl but that is easy to make that's funny uh well i was just talking to one of my best friends in fact that guy was with me in vienna and then and he was telling me about a date he was on just yesterday and he was saying oh yeah i cooked that risotto again i you know he's like man you taught me that that one time and i've

grown with that for the last 10 years. I think a risotto is a really good, very easy dish to make that you can do a lot of things with that seems very fancy and impressive but isn't that hard. A basic risotto is you start with an onion or a shallot. You cook that down. You cook your rice. You have a stock of some kind. So you can buy a nice chicken stock or seafood stock, depending on what you're going to put in there and make sure that's hot. And then you're just adding some stock as you go and you,

so sorry, onions. And then you put the rice in, mix that around a little white wine and let that evaporate. And then you're just adding stock as you go until the rice is like done. You want it to be a little, you know, al dente. You want it to be a little, have a little tooth to it. So you don't want it mushy. And then you just finish it with whatever you want. If you're going to have like some scallops in there, you can do a whole seafood thing. You can do a lamb risotto. You can do a vegetable risotto. You can do anything you want. And it's hard to mess it up because you finish it with a little butter, some olive oil, and a bunch of Parmesan cheese. So it's like hard to go wrong there. And it's sort of one of those dishes that it's hard to make it perfect, but it's easy to make it good.

Easy to make it good. God, that's so true for so many things in life, right? So I want to get a little granular on this because I'd actually like to try to make it this weekend. So you take the onions or the shallots. Those are pretty thinly sliced, right? Yeah, you want to dice those up. Dice those up. You want to make them very small dice, like a mince.

Got it. And then you throw that in the pan or pot, I guess pot in this case, with some like olive oil. And you just, would you have olive oil? Would you have some type of oil in there to start with? Yep. Yep. So you have some olive oil. You put that in.

You cook it a little bit. Then you put in your rice. And, you know, depending on how many people you have, you know, cup to two cups, you know, if you're not doing a ton. You know, a cup of rice should probably be enough. Will be enough if it's two people. It will be enough if it's two people. Then you cook that a little bit, get that covered and coated. And then you add, you know, a bit of white wine. Now, is the stock already in there?

The stock's not in there. The stock should be in a separate pot, and it should be hot. You should bring that to a boil and keep that warm. Got it. Okay, so onions, then you cook that down, let it kind of caramelize a little bit? No, actually, you don't want color on it. You don't want color. Okay.

And then you add the rice. Then you add, so you have a cup of rice. How much white wine would you put in there? Yeah, I'm not a great recipe guy. You just want to get a nice couple splashes in there. Yeah, no, there. Like, I don't know, maybe like a quarter cup. Okay. Um, at the most. And then you, you cook that down. So you want, when you, when you know you're, you want to get rid of all the alcohol. So you know that like when you lean over the pot and you kind of put the, what's evaporating kind of, you, you put your nose over that. If it kind of

burns the inside of your nose, you know that nose over that. If it kind of burns the inside of your nose, you know that there's still alcohol burning off. And like once that sort of burning sensation comes and it's just like, okay, that smells good. Then you know, you're, you're ready to go. It should be pretty dry. It should be dry basically. Um, before you then start adding your stock. Got it. And then how long, once you add the stock, is this sort of cocktail, is it on like a medium heat or what's the heat? Yeah. So you want it to be a nice simmer, uncovered simmer. And you only use a wooden spoon because you don't want to damage the rice. And you only want to use a boreal rice, really important, which is a nice starchy rice. So you'll get a good, a nice starchy kind of

broth. And so when you, so yeah, so you, so you just add the stock as you go. So you cook it, you know, it'll start absorbing. You realize, okay, I'll need some more. You start absorbing, you keep adding. And now if you run out of stock, you can finish with water, no problem. You know, you want to heat the water up. You don't want to put in a cold liquid into your risotto because that stops all the cooking process and can start breaking down the rice if you do that too much. I like this idea. I'm going to try this this weekend because it seems like you could also, for instance, with scallops, which are so deceptively easy to cook, you can kind of

muck around with the risotto. And if you're kind of flying by the seat of your pants and half screwing it up since the scallops only take whatever you know four minutes two minutes to cook um you can kind of do it last minute and just drop them in yeah so for like if you're using the base scouts the little guys like basically when your risotto is basically done or just yeah you put them in you just give it a stir and you turn it off and like they'll basically cook through uh just as it settles. Because you'll want – so at the end, so you cook it. It's getting close. Whenever you're done, so like when it's basically done,

then you put in your Parmesan, you put in some butter, you put in a little olive oil, and you give that a good stir. You're going to want to let it just rest for a minute, and it'll kind of come together. If it dries up, like when you put it on the plate, you want it to just kind of relax onto the plate. Like you don't want to hold up and kind of a ball. You don't want to run either. So you may need to add a little stock to make it, you know, it should feel like it's got a little sauce, but it's not saucy. Right. And, but then you can literally add whatever you want, any kind of herbs, any flavor profile that you like. Like if I love basil, asparagus, and

zucchini, I can add that at the end, let that basically warm up, and you guys just have a beautiful risotto. If you're doing scallops, I love like a lemon seafood risotto. So you can add a bunch of lemon juice, a ton of lemon zest, like lots of lemon zest, maybe a squeeze of a lemon and say shrimp and scallops and tarragon. It's a great herb for that one. Killer risotto. So you can, that one will impress any lady, whoever has that. I'm going to try that this Saturday. Question from Kerry Kaminsky. What dish have you most frequently made for house guests? Wow. Most frequently made.

I don't know the answer to that, to be honest with you. I mean, I love the grill. I'm just a grill freak. It's super simple. Less dishes and biggest flavor. So when it's warm, I throw everything on the grill. I grow all the vegetables. Like we grow eggplant.

We grow like rapini. We grow peppers, zucchini. I just, it just all goes up there. And it's a really healthy way to cook because you're using very little. You don't need much. You know,

there's no heavy fats or anything. And I've been doing pork chops up there, some steak, even pieces of fish, on what it is shrimp so i don't know i just i just try to keep it fun and simple i think the the one thing is this actually kind of reminds me i think the one other difference between home cooks and and pros is this just acidity level like at when you think it's ready like add another lemon yeah totally we always like pros bump up the the acidity level. When you think it's ready, add another lemon. Yeah, totally. Pros bump up the acidity level, which is one of the secrets. We add a little more acid and it makes everything taste better.

Yeah, it seems like pros use lemon juice as they might use salt a lot of the time. What are some of the mistakes that people make with grilling? What do they make with grilling? One, the grill's not hot, so they end up not getting very good color. Two, I think that's the main mistake. I think they also play with food too. When you throw it on there, let it go let it get that nice color and before you start moving around um and um you know i think grills are best when you get the sear but like if you're doing a piece of meat or even a piece of fish letting it finish in the oven even just for a minute or two depending on how big your piece of of meat is is the best way to do it because it'll cook more

evenly. A lot of times if you're using a really hot grill, you'll get like a lot of well done and then like a little bit of rare or medium rare in the middle, but like the sides will be super dry and tough. So if you get a really hot grill, get a great sear, you lock the flavor and then you finish in the oven and it's always the best way to do it. Yeah. To, to avoid the black and blue steak. Yeah. Um, next question is from Daniel Lohan. Uh, what is the best way to systematically develop and refine your palate? And I'll just, I'll modify that and say, what is, what is one simple way to start systematically developing and refining your palate? Wow. That's an interesting question. I've never, I've never, I've never been asked that. I think,

I think basically just tasting everything you possibly can and really tasting it, like thinking about it, like breaking down the flavor and just paying attention to it. Smelling things. So smell is a really fundamental part of taste, way more than we realize. So I would make sure you're really smelling, touching, and tasting as much as you possibly can. Eat at restaurants. Go to farmer's markets. Try things out. And the more you taste, the more you'll start understanding the subtleties and complexities. I don't know of a resource. I mean, that's just the way I learned is like cooking and tasting things. And that's the way most chefs learn. I don't know of a resource that's like a guide to

palate development. Um, I'm sure there's something out there, but I don't, I don't know of it. Yeah. It's a, it, this was a, this was a question I had to tackle for myself when I was attempting to learn to cook in the beginning. So I would say to Daniel a couple things really helped me. The first was going to restaurants, going to the same restaurant, say five days in a row. And maybe you can't do five days, but going there regularly enough on off days, like Tuesday to Thursday, Monday to Thursday to get to know the staff, always keeping the menu with you when you're eating. So you can, you can read along as you eat dishes. So you know what's in it, like the five or six, seven ingredients, whatever it might

be, uh, smelling your food before you eat it. It looks kind of weird, but it's smelling food before you eat it. Cause I've, I've always had chronic, well, up until I started using, um, kind of sinus rinses, I had chronic sinusitis and I had a lot of trouble smelling. Um, and then, uh, last thing would be for unfamiliar ingredients that are mixed into a dish. And this is part of the reason that you would go during the week, asking them to give you a little bit on the side so that you can taste it individually before you eat it in the mix, I found. And there's a fun book called The Flavor Bible also that is a cool book. And a lot of chefs use that to come up with unusual flavor combinations. Next question is from Abe Diaz.

If you had to pack the essence of life into a burrito, what would that burrito be like? The essence of life into a burrito? Yeah. Meaning like what would the ingredients be? Yeah. The food ingredients? Yeah. Wow.

All right. Here we go um uh okay i think i would have you'd have um uh you know you'd have some brown rice in there for like fortitude sustenance for like you know your grit determination um i would have um, lots of avocado for the richness of life, beauty, color, flavor, excitement. I would have, what would be my protein? I'd definitely have beans. I think beans are like the sea, their growth. They harness promise for me, hope, opportunity, optimism.

I'd have maybe a little skirt steak for strength, but not a lot. I'd have a habanero salsa for like the spice, the excitement, the, to stimulate curiosity, which I think is, uh, the most important or underappreciated quality of, uh, of, of people who live great, successful, awesome lives, which is just, just like being curious about the world around them. So I, I let the, I let the chef throw a mystery, a mystery ingredient in there. How's that? I love it. It looks like, it looks like my cheat day on Saturday is going to be risotto and burritos. If, uh, if just, uh, two more questions, uh, this is, this is really fun. And, uh, people can certainly, uh, let us know if, if they want more, more Sam. I'm sure a lot of people will. Two more questions for you.

The first is if you could give your, let's just say, give yourself advice when you were just graduating from UChicago, what advice would that be? Wow, that's a great question. Well, if i would have given myself advice when i graduated from when i went in i would have said study a little harder you know uh work a little harder but i when i when i left i mean i i think the advice that i um that uh that i live by which it kind of holds which is basically get out there in the world, be open to it, explore it, don't worry about having a clear plan because I didn't know enough

to have a clear plan. And follow things that I really cared about and go all in when I found something that interests me. Because passion is an overstated word. I mean, I think passion develops. So I was really into food and was interested in it. And I threw myself into food. But it didn't become a passion until I really combined. Although I was passionate about it, it wasn't a life passion until I can like combined, you know, food and nourishment with health and sustainability and

politics and policy and what we're doing to really help make sure that all people can live healthy, productive, you know, awesome lives through the food that they're eating. Like that's what sort of became that, that passion. So I think a lot of people are like, find your passion. I think passion comes from a combination of being open, curious, of really going all in. When you find something that you're interested in, then that goes. And I think always just trying to figure out how to do the right thing, trying to remember why you're doing what you're doing, are kind of the lessons that I've tried to live by. And they've served well. what you're doing, um, is, are, are kind of the lessons that I've tried to live by and, and, and they've, they've served well on the, you know, getting out in the world gives you a perspective

on, uh, wherever you are that I found to be transformative and, um, and just a foundation of, of, of who I am. So, um, it's been, uh, it's been good. No, I, I, I really want to underscore something you said that I think is really important. And that is just related to finding your passion. A lot of people ask me how, how can I find my passion? And I think that in their mind, they see this singular thing that is this lightning bolt that knocks them off their feet. And in my case, just like you, it was an unexpected combination of things that came together by trying a lot of things and being not having, in my case,

I didn't have like a five or 10 year plan. It was, uh, I will do the best I can at this, this next gig, whatever that is, and look for doors that open. And, uh, so I, I don't want people to think, to feel like, and I've seen people reflect this, feel like a failure because they, they haven't had a single activity hit them like a, you know, Cupid's arrow or whatever. Um, what, if you could make one ask of the people listening to this, what would that ask be? Oh, great question. What would be my one ask? I think my one ask would just be to be engaged. I think right now we're suffering from lack of engagement around some of the issues that really matter. And there's lots of solutions. There's lots of

different ways to think about it, particularly in food. I think there's nothing more important than making sure our kids are getting food. I mean, we have so many hungry kids in the country. We're wasting so much food. We're not getting enough nourishing food. In the face of climate change, it's going to be even harder to grow healthy food and produce it at an affordable price for people. So the challenges are higher. And while we're so engaging and caring and trying to improve the food system through the choices that we're making every day, there's a start.

And I think for people who really get into it, it's starting to translate that into politics and actually caring about these issues in terms of who's representing us in Washington. And I think that's a, the politicians follow the people and businesses follow the people. Like they try to like shape decisions and they market, et cetera, but in the end they're following. And so we need to lead and then we're leading every single day in ways that sometimes we're aware of and sometimes we're not.

And so I think that kind of awareness and engagement can have a profound impact on what companies are producing and what policies are being made. So I think that's my big ask, at least in my world. But the truth is that that kind of same principle applies to just about any issue. And I think we just, the more we're engaged, the, the, the more democracy works. Agreed. Yeah. Give a damn people. Don't be apathetic. Find, find something to get, get excited about and care about. Uh, Sam, where can people find you on the internet? Uh, where can people find you on, you on Twitter? I guess you're at Chef Sam Cass.

Yep. Yep. At Chef Sam Cass. Instagram is Sam Cass DC. Facebook, to be honest with you, I set that up so long ago, I don't even know what my name is. I have to look that up. I got to get on that, Tim. You're the master of this. Oh, wow. I'm fumbling my way through all of the interwebs one day at a time. Do you have a website where people can also check you out? No, not yet. That is in the works. In process. In process. I will share that with people when it is, for its big debut. Uh, Sam, well, this is, this is great. I really enjoy hanging out. This was a lot of fun. And, uh, for people listening, you can check out the

links to resources, books mentioned, et cetera, uh, in the show notes and those show notes and the show notes for every other, uh, podcast are just at four hour workweek.com forward slash podcast. Uh, but Sam, thank you so much for the time. Tim, it's been awesome, man. You're the best and you're helping people live better lives. And it was an honor to be here with you, man. Thanks, buddy. I'll talk to you soon. All right. Take care. Bye.