The Tim Ferriss Show - #866: Sami Inkinen of Virta Health — Reversing Type 2 Diabetes, Rowing 2,750 Miles, and Lessons from Fixing Metabolic Health in 100,000+ People

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

Sami Inkinen (@samiinkinen) is a Finnish-born, Stanford-trained entrepreneur and the founder and CEO/president of Trulia and Virta Health. Virta is on a mission to reverse metabolic disease in one billion people using technology, AI, and nutrition. A world-class endurance athlete, Sami is a triathlon age-group world champion and an 8-hour, 24-minute Ironman finisher, having completed the Hawaii Ironman World Championship seven times.This episode is brought to you by:Eight Sleep Pod Cover 5 sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: EightSleep.com/TimAG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: DrinkAG1.com/TimWealthfront high-yield cash account: Wealthfront.com/Tim Wealthfront disclaimer: New clients get 3.30% base APY from program banks + additional 0.75% boost for 3 months on your uninvested cash (max $150k balance). Terms and conditions apply. The Cash Account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC (“WFB”) member FINRA/SIPC, not a bank. The base APY as of 1/30/26 is representative, can change, and requires no minimum. Tim Ferriss, a non-client, receives compensation from WFB for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of WFB, which creates a conflict of interest. Individual experiences and outcomes will differ. Instant withdrawals may be limited by your receiving firm and other factors. Investment advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, not bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value.*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsorsSign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where I deconstruct world-class performers. This conversation is incredibly tactical and practical, lots of detail that you can use. I took a lot of notes. Sami Incanen is my guest. He is the founder and CEO of Verta Health, which aims to reverse metabolic disease in one billion people using nutrition and technology. And based on his texts to me over months, what he and Vita have been able to do with people who have Practically no money, practically no time, blows my mind. I mean, imagine completely transforming yourself if you only were able to eat at McDonald's as a truck driver. I mean, it's really, it's just mind-blowing stuff. In any case, we'll get to it. He previously co-founded Trulia is a triathlon age group world champion and once rode 2,750 miles from California to Hawaii. Imagine that with your arms. Maybe you've taken a flight between those two. It is not a short flight with his wife, unsupported, setting a world record to raise awareness of sugars link to diabetes. His stories, nuts, his cultivated abilities, which are all scaffolded on habits that you can imitate,

are really, really consummately impressive. So I'll leave it at that. Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with the one and only Sami Incanon. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start. shake. Can I answer your personal question? Now we'll have seen an appropriate time. I'm a cybernetic organism,

living tissue over metal endoskelet. I will start, I suppose, with something that I can potentially use immediately or some variant thereof. Do you still schedule your week or at least

workouts each Sunday? And I'm reading here, this is from a blog post, schedule everything. This is top five tips getting and staying in shape for people who are busy. I spend 10 to 20 minutes every Sunday scheduling most of my workouts in detail similar to any other appointments in my calendar. Like with most unscheduled tasks and to-dos, they'll fall between the cracks on the other. And with proper scheduling, you've managed to get in your workouts with 150 plus annual travel days, changing cities, super early wake-ups and delayed flights, et cetera. So this is kind of a micro question. that edges into the macro just around planning and scheduling.

But do you still take time out each Sunday to go through these things? 100%. 100%. It's every Sunday. I just find a structure allows flexibility and spontaneity. If you don't have structure, like nothing gets done, at least in my life. And not that my life is super special, but, you know, two pretty young kids, happily married, running a company growing that doesn't employing.

and then trying to be a kind of semi-athlete in the process, if I don't schedule, it's not going to happen. So I spent about 15 minutes at the end of each week that Sunday. Professionally kind of list three things that absolutely have to get done, and then I schedule a few things, including workouts, and it works very well. When do you do that on Sunday? This could be a long conversation,

but it's either early morning before the kids wake up and kind of Sunday gets going, Or if I don't have it done by Sunday afternoon, then it's after 7 p.m. when everybody else kind of quiets down and I take my own time. Verta. How many employees do you have right now? Yeah, Verta. So we're about 1,000 employees. And the caveat these days, of course, is don't brag about employees because the more

employees you have less you leverage AI. So it's... But, you know, I guess mentioning 1,000 employees, it's a real company. And I was growing fast, so it takes a amount of effort. So about 1,000 people. Well, the good news is, like so many companies in the news these days, if you did end up overhiring during COVID or something, you cannot say we made a mistake. You can just say we're using AI to improve efficiency when you have layoffs. But we won't dwell on that.

The question I had is what type of training in your life right now are you currently scheduling each week? Well, what about training? So this is sort of physical training. So it's really in two buckets. The primary focus is really endurance sports around cycling. So I do a lot of mountain bike racing as well as road bike racing. So that's essentially endurance training. So I'd say 90% is cycling related and that's my core workout.

That essentially happens in the morning every day, 99% of time. It's one of the first things. It's not the very, very first thing in the morning. So that's one. we can go into morning routines and stuff like that in a second if that's interesting. But I do a little bit of just sort of core work, pretty much first thing after waking up. So I don't even have to schedule that.

That's sort of a non-negotiable before the brain even boots up. I've done my kind of core work. But cardiovascular work is the main. Let's not tease. Let's just hop right into it. So what does the morning look like? upon waking up and what time are you getting up? Let's separate into traveling and not traveling.

Traveling for work, not traveling. Let's not traveling. I wake up 5 a.m. latest, like this morning, the alarm was 445, so I wake up pretty early. And I have the amazing privilege and luxury that the second I roll off the bed, I jump into a lake or pond. You know, it's not a long time, maybe like a minute, It's just cold water, a couple of strokes, but it's essentially, it's like a freezing cold shower.

And this is a mountain lake, so we're talking like 40 degree weather pretty much straight off the bed. And after that, maybe just like a minute or two of some air squats and jumps and core, like literally core work, nothing too special. So that's like some supermans and leg races and stuff like that. And I do it because I raise bicycles quite a bit, and I have some lower back issues. And core work, it just never gets done unless it's the very, very first thing in the morning. And then I'll throw in a couple of pushups there. So it's, you know, that's five to ten minutes, straight off the bed, jump into the lake, tripping wet, a little bit core, a little bit jumps, a little bit this and that.

And I'm just a huge, not just a believer, but the practical experience I've had is kind of mood, follows movement and emotion. So before I even ruminate or think anything, I've already been in a lake and done five or ten minutes of co-work and some jumping and get the heart rate up for a little bit. And that's pretty much the first five, ten minutes. And then the other thing I try to do always right after is do something useful for other people. Do something useful for other people. What is that in practice when I'm not traveling? It's preparing coffee for my work. wife and emptying the dishwasher. Sounds very simple. But that's like 15 minutes after I've woken up, I haven't had a second to think about a ruminate. Oh, my back's hurting, oh my God,

someone's work or whatever that is. It's like a 15 minute sort of boot up sequence. And it's like life's rocking. And then kind of I'm ready to go and do the other things. Don't worry. I won't have you give the minute by minute for your entire day. But after you have done that, so you've made coffee for your wife, you've emptied the dishwasher, then what? Are you having your first intake of coffee? What does the next kind of 30 to 60 minutes look like for you? Man, sounds like you're a mind reader. So I do drink coffee. So that's time for an espresso or a cup of coffee at that point. And everybody else is still sleeping in a house. I sit down and basically I write down kind of my sleep, how many hours I slept.

And I kind of have a little diary. It's a spreadsheet online. 16 years of data now. And I also write three things I'm grateful for. So this is kind of little gratitude journal, super, super simple things. And I try to focus on the mundane, such as, you know, leaves in the aspentries or warm temperature. It's just simple things, very, very simple things. So I do that and write down a few things. And then I usually work for about an hour, so like clean email and slacks or maybe I have like a

20-minute writing thing. So this is kind of my CEO job. So I try to do about hour of that. And then whenever my wife wakes up, then we have sort of a 15, 20-minute couples moment, drink coffee and took about life. It's a really wonderful moment there. So that's kind of the very morning and then my real workout usually happens between sort of 6.30 and 8.30, like exercise. And then after that, get to office. Exception would be if I have any meetings that are across time zones, then, you know, it could be a 6 am. Zoom or something like that. But before that, I've always done my swimming in a lake and a little bit core and maybe a cup of espresso. That's a routine. And pretty much repeated that for more than a day.

decade and it's nothing too special. I always say people ask like, what's the signs behind? I say, listen, if it doesn't feel good, it's not right for you. If it feels good, repeated. So, I mean, I suppose there are different types of fun, right? There's type one, type two, maybe type three, fun, which is just embracing the suck. God, I can't remember who sent this to me. It was a friend of mine. Maybe you recall who this. is because I'm sure I pinged you about it. But they were driving up some windy, incredibly steep road in the mountains. They were taking a video from their car of some lunatic who I think they called

a lunatic. Look at this fucking guy. He's crazy on what you could envision listeners or watchers as incredibly long rollerblades. They're basically skis with a single track of wheels on them and poles doing uphill, I suppose, Nordic skating, let's just call it, going up this unending incline. And they're like, God, who is that lunatic? And of course, who did it end up being, ended up being Sami. So fun means different things, or feeling good, means different things in different contexts. But the reason for people who are wondering, why am I digging into all these details? Number one, I like the details and the details matter. But you have always impressed me, with the number of important pillars that you're able to methodically schedule into your life.

And furthermore, within those pillars, how you're able to operate at a very high level in multiple domains. So that's why I'm asking about the specifics, because these things, much like workouts, tend not to happen accidentally. if you don't schedule them, particularly with the number of moving pieces that you have, and frankly, the number of moving pieces that any person probably has, things will not manifest magically. And I'm curious, we talked about the single day.

Do you have any type of, I know for training you almost certainly do, have like weekly and monthly architectures, particularly with competitions, but from a work, could be work, could be physical, perspective, do you have a consistent weekly architecture of any type where, say, you might batch certain types of tasks or meetings or otherwise on certain days or anything like that? Or is it pretty much Monday to Friday, more or less the same daily routine? I do have a system. Well, a couple of things first, kind of, I think it's good to remind when myself or anyone's

like, oh, here's the system. And the reality is life happens all the time. So let's just remember that. You're running a company. You have kids. Crap hits the fan all the time or at this frequently. So obviously you have to be flexible. So what I'm going to share next is the kind of beautiful, clean scenario

where you can kind of live with your structure. But the reality is you're running a company. Yeah, exactly. It's 24-7 and the Sunday afternoon walk with your kids or your spouse may not happen because you need to address the crisis. But let me start with, you mentioned, like, oh, I'm kind of impressed how many things you can do. Honestly, the biggest secret is saying no to 99% of the things that many people consider

quote, normal. So what you care gets done. And sometimes people ask me like, wow, so many sacrifices. You're trying to be an athlete and your CEO and a founder and trying to be a parent as well and you even travel with your kids. You must have so many sacrifice. I actually find that saying no is incredibly liberating in life. I'm way happier that I'm married to one person versus five.

It's awesome. There's no way I could be a CEO of many companies. I love the kind of focus. And so I actually find it personally in life. When you find something that kind of fills your cup and is satisfying and gratifying, just having the one or two things that I focus on and then go all in. Rather than a sacrifice, it's like a happy place for me. So anyway, so I would say that's my biggest secret. Back in the day, this was 2004 maybe, I had someone approached me in a coffee shop

and said, good day, mate, and introduce himself, who was that? It turned out to be the founder of AG1. Believe it or not, way back in the day. And people often ask me, what has survived after 20 plus years of testing every supplement under the sun just about what actually has stayed in the rotation, in the toolbox. This episode sponsor, AG1, is at the top of that very, very short list. I started using it close to 15 years ago when it was still called Athletic Greens. I put it in the four-hour body, didn't get paid to put it in there, and it's outlasted almost everything else that I've tried. One scoop covers your nutritional bases, right, fills the gaps. You want to eat good food, of course, but 75 plus ingredients including probiotics, B vitamins, and hold

Whole Food Nutrients act as, in my opinion, pretty cheap nutritional insurance. I take it first thing every morning with cold water. And at this point, it's automatic like brushing my teeth. If you're looking for one simple daily habit that supports gut health and fills common nutrient gaps, this is where I'd start. So check them out. Subscribe today to try the next gen of AG1. Listeners will also get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 welcome kit, and AG1 travel packs with your first order. So start your journey with AG1's next gen and experience the difference firsthand. Simply go to drinkag1.com slash tim. That's drinkag1.com slash Tim.

You guys know I love wearables. I'm sure you do as well. And they're great, but they give you data. Typically, they do not give you solutions. That's why I absolutely love the pod by this episode sponsor, Ate's Sleep. I've been using their stuff for many, many years now. It fits over your existing mattress, tracks your heart rate with 99% accuracy,

plus respiratory rate, HRV, and sleep stages. It is wild how much it correlates accurately to the stuff that you wear on you. Then the pods autopilot analyzes your biometrics and automatically adjust your bed temperature while you sleep with independent temperature control for couples. Also important for a domestic peace. Users report falling asleep up to 44% faster. This matches with my experience. I've experimented with all sorts of stuff, countless sleep aids, and I've yet to come across a better

solution that both measures and fixes my sleep within the same system. Summers don't need to mean terrible sleep.com. That's spelled out, E-I-G-H-T, 8Sleep.com slash Tim, and use code Tim for $350 off of the Pod 5. With their 30-day trial and free returns, you can try it out risk-free. So check it out, 8Sleep.com slash Tim. I think a lot of people will hear what you're saying and theoretically agree with it. And yet most people are unable to embrace that in practice for whatever reason. And it doesn't mean they're not capable of doing it, but they don't do it. Why do you think people have trouble saying no or the default as people are inclined to overcomit or the

they do the 99% of things that are quote unquote normal that you say no to. Why do you think not more people do what you're describing? Honestly, if I had a perfect answer, I'd probably write a book about it, but it's all your all your spare time. Here's my guess. I think one might just be a narrative. I can't tell you how many times someone has it must be sacrificing so much to be able to do what you do. And I'm sure you could say the same for an Olympic athlete. Like, there's so many sacrifices, but if you're an Olympic athlete, focus on your sport and your craft, sure, you can't do 99% of things, quote normal people do, but it's probably incredibly satisfying to be able to do that one thing for the five or 10 or 15 years of your life.

So that's what I meant. So maybe it's a narrative that, oh, if I say no to all these, whatever that is, or movie night every night or some distraction, whatever, staying on social media and watching Netflix, four hours a day, oh, it's a sacrifice not to do that. So that's my guess. One thing that's a narrative in our minds, like, oh, you want to do all these consumption things that maybe take time away from the thing that could move your life or profession forward.

So that could be one. And then the other thing is, I think this sort of life structure that if you don't have a basic, we can go back to your original question, what's kind of your architecture, what's your structure? If you've never taken the time to take a step back and say, hey, how am I allocating my time? It's very easy to let the universe of entropy to kind of take control of your time, whether that's your inbox or text messages from others or phone calls. So it's actually very, very easy let the world run your life as opposed to you. Let's talk about the weekly architecture and then I am going to come back to this particular

question that I asked, but let's take a breather on that and we'd love to hear more about the weekly architecture or other architectures outside of the daily. Again, this is sort of in an optimal world, but I would say professionally, I do try to group kind of similar type of tasks into specific days. So just to give you an example, Monday is filled with a lot of kind of group and leadership meetings and stuff like that. So there's one kind of context switching, that it's meetings in front of the whole company and in front of leadership team and so forth. So that's Monday.

Tuesday, I try to have all my one-on-ones. Again, one type of context switching. And as an introvert, that takes a lot of energy, by the way, as important it is and sometimes are enjoyable, but the kind of one person after another, it's pretty draining for me personally. How many direct reports do you have? I should say this has changed all the time. There's been 15, there's been 10, and I had eight for a long time, but for the last couple of months I've had two, only two, which is a very small number. And again, that could be another one-hour conversation.

But when you're building a grow company, you always have to ask yourself, what's most important for this year? And there's not really kind of a schoolbook perfect kind of approach. But anyways, it's two right now. So Tuesday is that Wednesday, I actually tried to reserve for thinking and writing, thinking and writing. So the default is no meetings. And one example of writing that I do, I write a team letter for the whole company from the CEO. So I've now written 553 of them. Wow. So you do that every week.

Every week. And there's like a one topic. And again, another topic we could dive into. but what I find is that it's, as the company has scale, there are a few things that are very scalable. Like whether my email hits five inboxes or thousand, obviously doesn't take any time away from me. But I can give context, explain what's happening,

what's important, what's happening in the outside world, what's happening inside the company, and then every employee feels hopefully some level of connection. That's one example. There's a couple of things that I've kind of repeated ever since day one, and now a thousand employees scale, still very scalable. But that's just one example.

It could be preparing for board meeting or thinking about strategy, which sounds very high-flying. But I would say one thing that's very, very easy as a CEO of a growth company is to fool yourself that you're productive and useful by being busy. But if you miss a decision,

something around a corner, no amount of knocking tasks of the to-do list is going to compensate that. And it's almost like managing your own brain and feelings. It's hard not to have a tidely scheduled calendar, but in fact, having that time open for like, you can go for a walk and think about the problem. So anyway, so that's kind of my Wednesday. And then Thursday and Friday is a lot of internal client work and those kinds of things.

But usually that's not too structured. But that's just a little bit of a typical week. On Wednesday, when you're doing the writing and thinking, what are some of the ways that you structure your thinking? There's unstructured thinking. You can go for a walk and kind of ponder and allow the void to invite, hopefully some type of insight. But then there's structured thinking.

And I guess to the extent that I know you at all, I would say I'm inclined to think you probably have some prompts or structure or an approach to doing thinking. What does that look like? Or how would you speak to that? Typically, the way my brain works is the actual thinking and problem solving happens 24-7. And I'll give you a specific example. My workouts every morning, which is about an hour, I want to have, unless it's a very, very, very high intensity,

that's one of the best times where my thinking happens. And sort of problem-solving and new ideas and creativity happens there. And then for the Wednesday, I actually just block like an hour and say, it's almost like the time to get the words and the thoughts and whatever that might be off my brain to a paper, obviously, in the cloud. Unless I have to do a very kind of left brain mathematical deterministic problem solving thing, like literally like, okay, let's look at how do we improve crush margin or something like that. The created work does not happen at the desk for me. And I'll give you one thing that I noticed, this was, especially during COVID and COVID hit, I was listening a lot of podcasts and music and audiobooks on 100% of my workouts. It was maybe like a year.

And I realized that problem solving and the creativity almost like stopped. So now I have a rule that maximum of half of my workout, I can listen to Tim Perry's. I said, sorry. So if your download numbers are going down or listening numbers, so I'm just good. Damn it, Sami. I need all the help I can get.

So if the brain is in a consumption mode, you're kind of just filling in the cup. And I've noticed the creative thoughts and the problem solving that's happening kind of in a backwards, background processing is not happening. So anyways, it's a tactical thing that I've noticed

that too much audio book podcasts kind of filling the brain and it stops creating stuff. It's very interesting. That's at least my personal experience. So I'm very conscious of on those moments when I'm, you know, exercising or walking or driving somewhere that there's kind of like a cutoff point. No more listening. Just let your brain do its thing.

And then the Wednesday comes in. It's more like, okay, now I kind of have the framework in my head. Take an hour and a half to, I don't know, write about next year's priorities. So this is going to, the new product we're going to launch. Or even these team letters that I, write. I actually write them in my brain when I'm away from the desk and then when I sit down, it just... That actually leads into my follow-up question. And I can't imagine I'm the only person wondering this, which is when you're doing these workouts, let's just say it's an hour and a half

to two hours, the real workouts, right, in the morning. I would imagine quite a lot percolates and comes up. And if you're doing that Monday, Tuesday, maybe also Saturday, Sunday, etc. By the time you get to Wednesday, if I have not taken some step to maybe verbally record some of that or make short notes in a notebook for cues for later, I would be doubtful that I would be able to recall the good ideas that I had earlier in the week. Do you just have a preternatural inclination to be able to remember all that stuff? Or do you take some type of shorthand after the workout so that you can use those then on Wednesday as prompts. How does that work?

Essentially, I write emails to myself or strong notes. It's the same thing. So there's tidbits along the week and then I have it for Wednesday. And then half may be in the brain and half is written somewhere so I don't forget it all. And you just send yourself an email after the workout with some time note. Yeah, yeah. What is an example of what you might cover in a team, slash company email on a Wednesday, and how long is that?

That is, like you mentioned earlier, one of the things you've repeated since day one would be an example that you can share. Could be hypothetical, but just like, what might you put into that, and how long is it? Absolutely. Well, there's sort of half a standard structure, so there's a quote from, again,

we can go into details, but we're in a business of reversing metabolic disease and helping people get healthy with nutrition. So we treat patients like real humans, hundreds of thousands. So half of it is this existing structure. There's a quote from a patient, so we're always kind of lead with, this is why we're here, and here's kind of a positive feedback from a patient. And then there's some business metrics, like how much we've grown, and what are the priorities, and just a reminder of this year's key objectives. So half is like that. And then

the most important other half is topic of the week. So topic of the week is essentially my as a CEO founder essay. I think that's what you were asking. I would. say they're raffling two or three categories. One is what has happened in an external world, what's the context there, and how does that affect us? One example, this is a real world example that I've written quite a bit about. Since we use nutrition as the core tool, but obviously our providers use all the tools in the toolkit, one of the things that has really changed in addressing obesity and metabolic disease over the last couple of years is the GLB1 drugs. So this about the, you know, the ozempics of the world. And so I've had a number of letters discussing

how do these drugs potentially affect how we take care of our patients and what's the impact in our business. So that would be sort of externality and how is it affecting our strategy. So that's one example. The other category is career and personal advice to our team members, like how to make most out of your experience working at Verto. And around that sort of, sort of, kind of stuff that we discussed. We've discussed now, like personal productivity and how do you make most out of? So that's, I would say, is the second category. And then 30 is just internal, this is what happened, this is what it means for us.

So honestly, I kind of like it. It's my personal outlet and sometimes said, hey, 530 plus essays, there's a book in the making. All we need to do is upload it to chat, TPT, and we have a book ready to be published. So I promised I would come back to a thread, which I realize is probably a misworded question. The question I asked was why people have trouble doing what you do, which is saying no to 99% of the things that normals do or feel compelled to do, to your point about the narrative. And I realize that's perhaps not the right question. The right question might be, what advice would you give to someone who is, having trouble saying no or focusing on just a few things,

but I can make it much more specific because I think the more we can imagine it, perhaps the easier it is to dig into this. So let's say that you had a relatively new hire who is on the younger side, but a 10x engineer or some equivalent of that, someone who is clearly a superstar, but who is not established the type of architecture, and routine that you have in your life. And let's just say you sense that they are on the path to burnout,

which is going to be bad for them. It's going to be bad for the company. It's going to be bad for the patients you serve. And you want to stage an intervention to help them correct course. I imagine you may have even had these conversations. What might that conversation or coaching look like? Well, funny enough, this has been one of the topics of my team letters, one of the 530.

I would separate it into two things, my advice. One would be this sort of planning. Literally, it would be very simple. Sit down for five minutes on a Sunday evening before the week starts and write down what absolutely completely needs to get done next week, super duper simple, professionally and personally. And schedule it into your calendar. like literally and if you have the flexibility then like block two hours in the mornings to get those

two or three things done and then when life happens or work happens everything else kind of comes off to that so that to me would be the number one thing and then I would couple that when Monday comes or Tuesday comes you know whether you work in an office on a remote setting do not let the universe control your time so this means absolutely no notifications. Maybe if you have to get text message for, I don't know, family emergence or something, but take everything else out and you kind of create that sacred space

where you can do that, whether that's writing or coding or cold calling 15 prospects or whatever that is. It's super duper simple, but it's so easy to then sort of, again, Monday comes, Tuesday comes, and then the world takes over. And you're like, oh my God, it's 4 p.m. I haven't done the thing.

So I'd say that would be the one category. And then the second category, we get to the second. For some people listening, if they sit down for 10 minutes on Sunday to write down the things that must get done professionally and personally, they might have a list of 20 things in each category. So are we talking about one thing, three things in each category? I know this seems like very persnickety, but this seems like a possible failure point for people. So what does your suggestion there? It's probably one or two things, but this again, we could launch into another part, which is obviously you need to an architecture,

annual thinking, planning. What is the business need, for example? Like, I have, in fact, I just have a text file, ASCII file on my computer. Here's the four things to remember as the CEO now and 20 years from now. Here's the three things for this year. And here's the three things for this week. I literally have a text file and I just update it every Sunday. And a whole other topic, which I'm sure some people think I'm crazy, is I have a 15-year plan for myself, which I kind of accidentally stumbled.

It actually could be useful, and I updated it every year. And again, we can take that offline or take a bookmark, how that came about. It's been incredibly helpful. And again, I want to highlight, structure allows spontaneity and flexibility. But if you don't have that architecture, then obviously on a Sunday evening, it's like, oh, should I write a book? or get a new job or just do this project that my boss was asking. So if you don't have that North Star, you could be kind of spinning like a compass. I did take you off track because you were saying,

block these things out in the calendar like Sunday, five to ten minutes, block those things out in your calendar if you can, two hours first thing in the morning. Do not let the universe dictate your, how you use your time, block out notifications, and then you said the second thing. Yeah, second bucket. this is probably the most important, as it relates to kind of like a burnout,

and you're just kind of, you're falling apart. And I'm going to knock here on my wood, my table, not too hard to create any noise, but I founded my first software company in April 2000. So now it's weird. We're here in 2026.

So that's 26 years, running, building, fast growth companies, and I haven't cracked yet. And again, caveat is it could happen. tonight. But there's a few things I've learned. I think these are applicable to, especially any knowledge worker, where kind of like everything is just coming to your brain and it's very

easy to get stressed and anxious and crack. And I've written about this as well. Here's my formula that has worked for me very well. One, you have to take care of your sort of foundational or metabolic health. That's what is it? It's sleep, nutrition, exercises. That's kind of one. If you are metabolically very, very unhealthy, it's very, very likely you're going to crack under pressure.

So that's one. Second one is, it's very helpful to have, especially for kind of founder's CEO types, but for anyone, have at least two or three kind of identities or outlets. For me, it's kind of parent-husband, one, CEO, two, and then want to be athlete. And so if one's failing, hopefully at least two, the other areas, outlets in my life were like, oh, it's going okay. And by the way, it's never that I'm rocking and winning and ringing the bell in all three

at the same time. And it's very healthful. It's almost like a Jedi mental trick, like, oh, my God, work sucks. but at least my kids love me today. So having that outlet, in particular founder types, younger ones, it's often the opposite. They're sort of proud of the fact that I only have one thing and I'm ready and willing to die for my company.

Well, that's all well and good when everything's going well, but you have the first kind of speed bump and then everything falls a bar. So that's the second thing, I would say. Third one is have peers outside of your company that you can kind of let your hair down. Sorry, sorry, that announced. your head down and relax. For me, it's a group of CEOs. Other CEOs was, oh my God, can you believe, can you believe these employers are bitching again? But obviously, you can't say that in front of the company. So having that kind of, personally for me,

it's been YPO, the Young President's Organization since, I guess, 2008. So now it's, for me, it's not anymore why the young, it's just P.O. I'm all enough. So I have that. And then I think the last fourth one I would say is everyone has their own tools, but just understanding how your mind worked. It could be meditation, could be some other tools, but that's been a process for myself to just realize that if you are just attached to your thoughts, eventually they're going to get you, and you can't really think yourself out of the whole that you've thought yourself into. So unless you can take a step back and kind of like observe, like, oh my God, my brain's having the life of its own. So that's kind of the tool that I would not do crack. So foundational health,

you know, have different outlets, identities, have peers you can talk. It could be friends as well. And then some sort of understanding and kind of way of taming your mind, if you will, of being able to see that the mind has the life of its own. That's been helpful for me. And I will say, again, could happen tonight, but I haven't touched any prescription drug for anything sort of mind-related. That toolkit has kind of kept me head above the water so far for 25, 26 years. I have a very left-turned question for you. Hopefully it won't be incredibly offensive. But I was just thinking when you were like, I would knock on wood, but I don't want to make any noise.

And then you're like, and let my hair down, no offense, sorry. And you're very polite. And I've only been to Finland once. I was walking around and, of course, went to the obligatory saunas and so on, which I actually can tie into my story. But I was walking around, and in the maybe two days that I was in Helsinki, I thought to myself,

I lived in Japan, I speak Japanese, I'm still close to my host family, who I stayed with when I was 15, and I thought, Finnish people feel like white Japanese people. That was my feeling there. And the reason it ties into the sauna, different contexts, but if you go to Japan,

everything is very restrained, very polite, people don't stare you in the eye when you're walking down the street. In Japan, though, if the boss says we need to go out and drink, when you drink, okay, and if the boss says you have to drink, you have to drink. But you go out and you can get really loud and you can get really boisterous. You're allowed to say things when you've had some alcohol that basically everyone agrees they're going to forget the next day like it never happened. Now, I can't take it that far with Finland, but when I went to the,

the saunas, one thing that I was very surprised by is that they sell huge steinglasses of beer that people bring into the saunas. And I was like, oh, this is where they let their hair down. Okay. Am I totally off base? I don't know if you've spent time in Japan, but culturally, I felt like in my 48 or 72 hours of exposure, I was like, wow, this is actually, even finish itself has some of like the phoneme, some of the sounds of Japanese. I mean, it's Sounds like I'm really overreaching now. But am I just an insane person? Or do you feel like there's something possibly there?

I think there's similarities. And you're definitely the connoisseur of a Japanese culture versus me, having just been to Tokyo and a few other places a couple of times. But that kind of space and distance and politeness that people, well, actually, there's no distance in Tokyo, obviously. But sort of emotionally, there is a kind of distance. in Finland and Japan versus when I came to America,

2003 moved to California. It's like everyone's on your face and everything's freaking awesome. And it took a couple of years to, it was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Just come on, like, give me space and everything's not awesome. So yeah, maybe there are similarities.

And then, yeah, alcohol, I'm sure, has been a mental health tool, not very effective at that in Finland for many, many decades. But sauna, I will, I have to, well, first of all, there's five and a half million people in Finland, and there are more than three million saunas, more than three million saunas. It's a crazy number. So on average, you have one to two people per sauna in Finland.

Babies used to be delivered in sauna. Really? In Finland, because it's the clean bacteria dies in a heat. It's warm, sterilized, it's warm water. I think my mom was delivered in sauna. I was in a hospital, just to be clear. So Sauna is beyond being part of the culture. It's part of the DNA.

And it's culturally, it's an amazing place, actually, not just kind of let loose in your head down, but you don't have your uniform. You don't have your titles. You don't have your whatever, social economic, singles, symbols, fancy waters. And kind of everyone comes together, whether that's family or your friends or your community.

And yes, Sano is definitely a place where a lot of things happen in Finland. And we could talk about Sons and its role in a culture, but it's something way beyond cold bonds in Sondon. Yeah, why is that? Why is it so prevalent in Finland? Because it seems like, and I'm sure you've seen this, but there are certain studies in the world of psychedelics where it's like they did brain imaging in one study

that they've been slicing over and over again and torturing the data again and again to just produce more and more papers on this one study that was done so long ago. It seems like the same group of like 140 fins has been dissected five million times in various announcements around sonnas. But why is it so prevalent there

versus other places? I don't know the origin story. Yeah. And hopefully there's a historian who will check me on. this, but it definitely goes back hundreds, let's say many hundreds of years where it was sort of necessary. So, you know, Finland, four seasons, incredibly cold winters. So Sana was a place to kind of basically heat and warm up in a winter. It was also a place where, you know, you could

dehydrate food. So that's kind of how it goes way back when. And obviously now, you know, it's not and necessary to stay warm and it's not necessary to dry your food. But I think that's kind of where it started. And then initial salons were kind of ducked into the side of a mountain. And then you just, you burn wood on top of rocks. And then, you know, you extinguish the fire. And then you make sure that the smokes goes away. And, you know, the rocks stay hot for a long time ago.

And that was the original. It's called, they will still have that kind of saunas today. It's called smoke sauna. Essentially, you don't have a way to get the smoke out other than, open the door. So there's no fireplace where the smoke just goes through a chimney. So that's called a smoke sauna. And it's a special sauna experience. And obviously it takes

much more time to heat it and make it safe. Because you don't want to go there when there's smoke. But I think that's kind of the history. And then somehow I'm missing the link how it became sort of like a culture. But now nobody will build a house without a sound. Like literally there. First is worse a sauna. And then let's figure out if there's space for a bathroom. Like that's kind of the order.

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It's pretty fancy, and there's a word. You could probably tell me what it is. It's like Lle. or something like that. Yeah, there we go. There we go. So this is what the act of throwing water on the stones? Is that what that refers to?

Or the sound that it makes? I don't know what the name of the actual location means. But the reason I bring it up is they had, I have never experienced so many varieties of sauna, and they had a smoke sauna room. And in my mind, looking at the menu of options before going in, I'm like, okay, I get it. It's a hot room.

How different could it be? But the experiences in the feeling in the body and the way it penetrates your being is very different. I was shocked because I've spent so much time in dry saunas in the U.S. And I expect it. And I've also done steam rooms and so on. But I did not expect there to be such a broad palette of experience in sonnas. Yeah. So that's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess Eskimos have dozen or so words for snow because they're not. know every nuance and, you know, kind of detail. And Finns have dozens of words for different things around sauna that you can't even translate. Lul is probably the most important. You judge the sauna and its quality based on Lulu.

And Lulu is essentially it's after you throw water into the rocks, the fireplace, the rocks, and then the steam comes up. It's not the steam. It's not the heat. It's the, I guess you could say, the spirit of the steam, but how it feels, how it lands. And let me tell you, there's a million different variations how it happens. Is it too hot? Is it too kind of sharp?

Is it soft? Does it sort of linger around? And how does it feel on your body? That is Lulu. And you judge the quality of the sauna based on a Lulu. And there's a whole science to it, kind of like how big is the space. Like barrel sound is a very, to get the Lodoo right in a barrel sounder, which by the way I have at my house,

it's very, very hard because it's too small. The fireplace, you can't get high enough and you should be sitting above the fireplace. So, yeah, Lo lu is, if you know one word, Lerlu, and you want to impress Finns, you go to a sauna and I say, what a fantastic Lerlu.

I feel like I need to reach out to the Finnish tourism board to sponsor this episode. Get people headed over to Finland. I really enjoyed it. It was a very short trip, but hopefully I'll have a chance to get back. Let's talk about metabolic health because certainly Verta, we can talk about Verta. And a part of the impetus for this conversation was tons and tons of text messages back and forth.

Some of them I'm sure we can't talk about publicly necessarily because it's internal data or whatever. But I would have, say, a conversation with Dominic Agostino, who some long-term listeners will know, synthesizes novel exogenous, meaning supplemental ketones and so on. And I was, for instance, I gave one example, facing a bit of an enigma in my own experience, which was I've gone into ketosis, and I know that's a very kind of sloppy way of putting it, but let's just say getting into ketosis. So eating a predominantly fat-based diet or even doing it through fasting, getting to a point where I feel like my brain has switched over to ketones.

And I was lamenting to Dom, Dominic, that my devices were telling me I was not in ketosis. And I found this implausible because after so many years of experimenting with it, I feel like I have a very good bead on when my cognition clicks over and is actually operating at a much faster kind of CPU capacity. But my fingerpricks with, say, a precision extra device or the keto mojo were telling me I was basically not ketosis. And very confusingly, even with a breath-based, I think it's ketone air or something like that, pretty primitive device.

But even with that, I was being given a negative. And you sent me a text showing your bar graph over the last 10. years or something of measurable ketone levels going down over time, even though presumably you're increasingly and increasingly fat adapted. And I was like, of course Sami has this data. And then you have some fascinating, fascinating data. I have certainly never seen anywhere else looking at different cohorts with various combinations of things with or without, say, dietary ketosis. That is part of the reason I wanted to have you on. You're just such a meticulous thinker around these things and data cruncher. But let's maybe just define some terms

before we get into things. What is metabolic health? And maybe you could tell your personal story because my understanding is at some point yours need a sub 10% body fat, but your report card in terms of biomarkers and so on came back and you're pre-diabetic is my recollection. But perhaps you could take that TED talk I just gave and use it as a leaping off point for discussing, defining metabolic health and then talking about your own personal journey, maybe as a starting point. First, the caveat, which is that I do have two muscles to crease, but I'm not a medical doctor and I don't play one on the internet. And I'm sure in this conversation will kind of go into that area. So I just want to be clear. I'm not giving medical advice to anyone and I'm not a medical doctor,

but obviously have a lot of experience with the topic that you just asked. I guess the personal story, so just rewind, not quite all the way back to Finland, but again, my background is not in medical field, a physicist by training, and in fact started my crew in a nuclear power plant way back when in Finland, when it was still fashionable, and I guess nuclear power plant is coming back to fashion now, now again, which is just to show that my background is in sort of science and technology, not in healthcare. However, I've been essentially an athlete all my life, cross-country skier, bi-athlete, came to America,

started doing triathlons. Well, you had to ski to school at one point, right? Yeah, sounds very idyllic. Maybe that was a punishment by my parents. So Nordic skiing to school, indeed, first grade through sixth. Sounds terrible, actually. And the biathlon came handy, so carrying a rifle, so I could shoot the bears when they were attacking along the way, which may or may not be true.

But yeah, so I was an athlete and have been athlete all those years. And then after coming to America, started doing triathlons and pretty high-level athlete, again, we're not talking about the Olympic gold medals, but as an amateur and, you know, many, many Hawaii Iron Mans, I think seven of those world championship races and even won the world championships in my age group as a triathlete, 2012, I believe. And I keep that all as a background context because my view on metabolic health and sort of chronic disease, type 2 diabetes and obesity was, this is very embarrassing to admit, was the following, which is, it's ridiculous.

It's very simple. People know exactly what to do, most people, most Americans, they just don't do it. And as a result, we have just obese people everywhere. Everyone has pre-diabetes or type 2 diabetes. By the way, it's more than 50% of American adults. Now the data is, I think, 93%, this is the public period number, 93% of the number, 93% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy in one way or another American adults. And, you know, either you have a high blood pressure or your lipid's off or you obese,

or you have type two diabetes or pre-diabetes. And my view, as judgmental as I was, was always, listen, ridiculous. You know what to do, but you're not doing it. You're eating too much. You're just eating too much and you're not exercising. You lose her, and that's why I pay too many taxes. Because health goes five trillion a year, of which almost all. all of it is metabolic culture related.

So that was my view. And I'm very, very embarrassed to say that's how I was thinking, sort of judging people. Like, you're unhealthy for reasons that are 100% in your control. And then I got the moment where I had to eat a lot of humble pie. And I discovered that despite, you know, being, I don't know, 10% body fat, fat, dicks or whatever. And, you know, exercising 15 hours a week and performing well as a triathlete.

I was pre-diabetic. All the numbers are often. essentially on my way to type 2 diabetes. And I was like, shit, wait, I'm not one of those people with no willpower. I'm not one of those lazy people. I'm not one of those, quote, unquote, middle of America, 300 pounds, you know, seat belt extender. Like, that's not me.

Seriously? What's going on here? And this was 2012, around the time my previous company, Trulia, went public. And I was like, well, first I have to figure this out for myself, because, you know, If I can't avoid being metabolically unhealthy, nobody can. Well, guess what? Nobody can. That is the status quo in America today with so many people metabolically unhealthy.

And I got me very interested in this whole topic of what is actually driving poor metabolic health? And fortunately met with amazing scientists who kind of helped me understand that fundamentally obesity type 2 diabetes and the other conditions that result from poor metabolic health, It's not a personal choice. People don't wake up on a Monday morning and say, I want to gain 200 pounds and develop type 2 diabetes. That sounds awesome. And sticking an insulin needle to my body for the next 10 years every day,

awesome. Sign me up. No, it's not lack of willpower. However, nutrition and food is the number one driver of poor metabolic health. And if you know how to use nutrition, if you know how to use nutrition to actually improve and reverse, your metabolic health, you can take an average, let's just call it 300 pound, middle of America, truck driver or average person that we people on the coast often look like, oh, it's your fault,

and systematically reverse the condition nutritionally. And essentially, that's what we've done at Verta Health now with more than quarter million patients and, you know, scaling fast. But let me just pause there. That's kind of the, how did a Nordic skier physicist from. they might get interesting in metabolic health and then we can take this down to different paths. Let's hop in. I want to start with, well, as you might expect, a question about diet. I want to know what, looking back, what the problem was with your diet and also, this is, of course, a leading

question, so feel free to discard it if it's not a good question. But how large a role does high fructose corn syrup play broadly in the, you? the US in metabolic dysfunction, right? If that just were removed from the market, what impact would that have? But let's begin with just your personal retrospective. Hindsight 2020, what was wrong with your diet? When you were exercising 15 hours a week, roughly 10% body fat, performing well in competition, what was wrong with your diet? Number one question I get like, oh, was it your genetics? Because you were exosters so much. obviously genes play a part in everything

but I just want to remind that given about 60% of American adults 6-0 either have type 2 diabetes or pre-diabetes today clearly it's not like our gene pool has changed so it can't really be genes or if 93% American adults are metabolically unhealthy

it's not like our genes have changed so no it's not that Sami was the n equals 1-1 thin with very very bad genes this is happening to a lot of people so that's I'll say one thing the first one is there The second thing is that it is possible to be skinny and lean and metabolically unhealthy.

Some kind of people have certain background, especially kind of in Asia, it's more common that you don't gain 100 pounds, but you're very metabolically unhealthy. Also, you can out exercise the calories and burn and not gain massive amount of fat, but you can still be elevated blood sugar, elevated insulin, and be insulin resistant. And that's basically what I was doing. It's very, very hard, and I can tell you that I was hungry for 15 years as an athlete. It's like, I'm always more hungry than I could. And if I eat to my appetite, I'm going to gain fat. I can't do that as an athlete. So now I'm going to answer your question.

So my N equals one, I'm absolutely convinced because I was able to fix and improve it is, I was eating six meals a day of essentially incredibly high. carbohydrate, an incredibly high-closemic index foods and practically no fat for 10 plus years. So you weren't eating Twinkies. We're talking about rice, things like white rice, or what are we talking about? Rice, bread, apples, granula bars, ketchup, pasta, pasta, pasta. You know, anything that has a glucose molecule turns into blood sugar. And sure, if it's in an apple or if it's lots of fiber, it comes very, very slowly.

but if you're eating 4,000 calories a day, of which 3,000 is carbs, do the mat, 750 grams of carbs a day or more. And so you basically trip feeding sugar into your veins constantly. Jamper juice in the afternoon, once I like a diet, tired. I just remember it was my diet all the time. When you're in your 20s, you can overdose. People say dose makes the poison. That's true.

you can tolerate for a long time, but once you get to your 30s, you know, it gets very hard. So very convinced that that was it. What are some of the more surprising things that you have seen within Fertile Health now that you have more than an equals one? And what do the interventions look like?

Let's start from the front end of your question. What's the most surprising? The most surprising is, is that we've been able to be successful with literally anyone. And I'll give you one example. And why is that surprising? Even overcoming my own concept of it's all about willpower. I have this, but it's like people are maybe not as educated as I am.

Maybe they're kind of busy lives. Maybe they don't have my willpower or kind of the willpower of willpower Olympians. So that's been one of the most surprising. We work with Native American tribes, 800 or so large employers, there's truck drivers. We've analyzed outcomes based on what's called ADI, so area deprivation index.

So you take all zip codes in America and you rank them by average income and exactly the same outcomes. We looked at race, ethnicities, exactly the same outcomes. And these are like large scale, tens of thousands, 100,000 of thousands of patients.

So that's one that's been very surprising, which is to say if you fix the biology, you fix the outcomes. This isn't, oh, you didn't even go to high school and you have a very busy life, so we need some sort of extra full power training. No, you fix the biology, you fix the body and the outcome. So that's number one. Number two is the magnitude of improvements. So to give you a couple of examples, someone may have had diabetes, type 2 diabetes for 15 years. They are on 100 units of insulin a day, sticking the insulin needle three times a day for 10 years. And we can reverse that kind of state of type 2 diabetes in 6 to 9 months and then sustain it for long term.

13% average body weight loss. And this is kind of like on an intent to treat basis, not 1,000 start. and then you calculate results based on five successful ones. No, you calculate the average results from all the thousand. So 13%. So in our clinical trial, that was about 30 pounds or so. Average weight loss at one year and sustained, and mostly fat because we did dexas cancer as well.

I would say the third one is the broad spectrum effects. Some of these are peer reviewed, so we've been able to show not just blood sugar down and reversing type 2 diabetes, not just weight loss, but we've been able to so up to 75% reduction in liver disease. It used to be called fatty liver disease, but scientists changed it to liver disease, and so it's called MASH and MASSOld. By the way, it's cost $100 billion a year in America today. There's one FDA-approved drug today.

One FDA-approved drug today for MASH. It's one type of liver disease. It costs $45,000 a year. No kidding. And it came out to market last year, first time, 2025, billion. dollars in sales. We deliver similar results nutritionally. I think this is public. This is in our texts. Paper just accepted through peer review, treating stage four, there is no stage five, if I'm remembering correctly, metastatic pancreatic cancer, right? This is bad news. This is super, super bad news. I mean,

this is kind of, also if my memory serves, this is kind of like a steep jobs type situation. But this is treating stage four metastatic pancreatic cancer with three chemo drugs. That's one. arm versus same drugs and on Vrida trying to get patients into ketosis remotely. And do you want to describe the results of that? This was a very well controlled, a randomized control trial for states for metastatic pancreatic cancer. We ran the trial with a number of academic oncology centers, so this wasn't just us, a very well-controlled randomized controlled trial. And before I talk about the results, It's just a reminder. Cancratic cancer is number two or number three killer,

depending on the year of cancers in America. So it's very deadly. It's usually diagnosed kind of too late, so it states for metastatic stage. And the life expectancy is usually sort of 12 to 18 months or 12 months. It's very, very deadly cancer. And so we had a trial where we had one arm, where we randomized people.

It was chemo, three drugs. and then another arm, as you mentioned, same drugs, exactly same therapy, plus the Vrta Nutrition Therapy. And we were able to show just about 35% life extension on average in that arm, so chemo plus Verta. Again, it's a very deadly disease, so 35% is stunning, but of course, you know, we're still counting months. It's not that you go from 12 months to 12 years, on average. But I guess that, going back to your earlier question, that shows the power of metabolic health and poor metabolic health and what might be possible.

What is absolutely possible is reversing type D diabetes, losing weight, preventing liver disease. We didn't even talk about kidney disease and other things. The fact that we can drive outcomes even with some cancers, and I will say some cancers, I can't say like, oh, nutrition can cure cancer. not quite, but poor metabolic health. And in our case, we didn't really define the poor metabolic health in the beginning, but essentially it's high glucose levels, high fasting insulin levels, and what you then might call insulin systems. Your body is primarily burning sugar and you're constantly hungry, you're constantly craving.

So even if you're 100 pounds overweight, you're hungry and you want to eat more of that stuff. That's kind of the typical state of poor metabolic health. and then it manifests itself with type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, fatty liver disease, often, eventually chronic kidney disease, and many other things. And seems like, again, not the medical doctor here, but many cancers thrive in that kind of environment, in that kind of poor metabolic health. I don't think that's controversial. It says the non-doctor to the non-doctor, but certain cancers, not all, are very glycolytic, right? I mean, they're really really, dependent on a steady fuel of sugar to simplify it. Dom, I think for people who want to hear more on

that, also, Dominic D'Agostino has spoken about it quite a bit in a couple of my conversations with him. What I want to ask you about, because we've teased it a little bit, the Verda Nutrition Therapy, I'm looking at the Verda Quick Guide right now, and if you don't mind, I'll lay out some of it because this is where for me this is where probably the magic is embedded and i want to learn more about how you guys get the compliance the adherence that you do because that to me has always been this very elusive i don't want to say missing link but challenging link with anything approaching what we might consider a ketogenic diet and i want you to also dispel if i'm making a false equivalence with the ketogenic diet, but you have curbiore carbohydrates.

Aim to begin around 30 grams per day just as needed. And you have some very important stuff in here, right? Measure total carbs, not net carbs. This is where people try sometimes outsmart themselves. And then you give examples of what that can look like. And then building your plate, like what does an actual meal plate look like? Non-starchy vegetables, moderate protein, added fat, salt and extras, et cetera.

I'd love for you to describe what you have found to work when you're getting people started and just what you've picked up over time in terms of the most helpful components, I was going to say ingredients, but not food ingredients, ingredients for getting people to adhere to these diets. Because my assumption, which may be incorrect, is, okay, I, Tim Ferrary, I can go to Whole Foods and buy salmon and vegetables and this and that. A lot of people in economically depressed circumstances or areas or fill in the blank, buy a lot of their, what some people would consider sort of unhealthy food because it's very inexpensive and it's readily available. And like having spent time around a number of Native American reservations, it's like,

man, you live in, there are food deserts in the United States. So what if you found, what have you learned over the course because your data set is so incredible. It's just like such a rich and amazing data set. What have you learned about helping with adherence and compliance or modifying the diet itself? I will brag, because you said we have big data set. We absolutely have the largest data set of metabolic disease reversal in the world. Millions of patient use data and data points from each patient every single day, not just qualitative information, but blood by markers. Yeah, so let me try to peel the onion to answer your question because it's a lot goes into it. So I guess just to take a step back, yes, we use nutrition, individualized

nutrition as the core therapy to treat our patients. It is our own protocol. I say our own protocol because any kind of generic label that you put into it, people go to Google and they Google and they can go wrong in 1,000 different ways. So anyway, so we use our own protocol, but yes, to address and reverse insulin assistance, you do have to reduce your total carbohydrate intake. And we have those response curves to know that the more and the better you do it, the better outcomes you typically see. But that's sort of a number one thing I will say that.

Yes, we use nutrition as a therapy to reverse metabolic disease. and I will say that as a physicist, using nutrition as a drug or as a therapy is harder than sort of nuclear physics. Why, for all the reasons you mentioned? Because every person makes a medical decision three to four times a day. That's when you eat. It's different today versus tomorrow, and then it's different between individuals. So it is a very, very hard puzzle to solve. Fortunately, computers and software is very helpful about that. So that's kind of one, individual as nutrition. And number two, so what does it take and how do we approach? Key piece, even if you know exactly what somebody should eat,

is you kind of need the support system. And I guess that's my tech background, and other things it comes to play that everything we do, we do virtually. So what we can do is we can monitor your biomarkers remotely. We give you tools to do that. We can track blood ketones, blood glucose, your weight and other things.

And then we have actual real medical doctors, not me, who are full-time employees who monitor you and coaches who can then make adjustments. Is that collected through continuous glucose monitors and is it also blood draws or is it mostly some type of continuous monitoring? It's all of the above. Some patients get a CGM and some it's a fingerbook,

but not everybody gets a CGM. Depends on the situation. We do lab draws one to two times a year, so that obviously doesn't, can't happen daily. Yeah, I got it. With the finger prick, that's some type of Bluetooth-enabled thing that automatically syncs the data. So they're not manually having to enter any values. No, no, no.

Close to cloud and gets to us. And I say that because it's kind of like, if you say like, oh, here's how to eat. Here's a brochure or a book or something. It's kind of like telling to a car driver that just hold onto the steering wheel straight. It's going to be awesome. And here's break and gas pedal. And you know what's going to happen. The car is going to be beautiful stay on the road until the first corner.

It's like, ooh, forgot to mention that we may need to adjust, turn left, turn right. And so it's the same thing with nutrition, that unless you have this kind of a platform, there's constant adjustments and constant adjustment. It's kind of like a self-driving car. But then if you have the cameras, white lane and yellow lane align, and you kind of try to keep it in between. So with the remote monitoring, we can kind of try to keep you between the yellow and a wide lane. So that's the second thing.

The third piece for adherence, we start talking about nutrition. The most important thing early is to understand the constraints that a person has. I'll give you silly examples. If we tell a vegan to have bacon and eggs for breakfast, you know what happens.

They can say, F, you see, K, I'm out. There's no way to convince a vegan to have bacon and extra breakfast, and vice versa. There's other things, obviously. If you are, we work with U.S. foods, LARB's kind of actually food delivery, full service is truck drivers. Their concept of a lump is McDonald's. We can't tell them, oh, yes, the least go shop whole food, so area one, and then go home

and cook at homes. It's like, okay, McDonald's it is. We're going to reverse your diabetes on McDonald's diet. And by the way, we do that. I don't want that to get buried. What are some sample meals that people might get out of McDonald's or something like that? Perfect. Yeah. So that's the next step with food. And maybe I'll give an example. It's like, okay, now that we know you are a truck driver and you will never become a vegan, you can never become a vegan. Obviously, I'm tongue and cheek here, but most of them don't. I'm not a vegan either, and I'm not sure if you're probably not either, right? Yeah. And by the way, we have many, many successful vegan patients. So I know, sorry if I started to diet war here. but so okay so example you structure okay so macronosities it may not be the pinnacle of hell but we can reverse your metabolic disease with that and let's forget the organics that we'll do that later if you

can here's what you do you go there say all right well you want your burger maybe you even add extra cheese but please ask them to drop the bun and just have like a lettuce strap get that then you go to the condiments yeah maya might be fine but don't take the ketchup because we're going to educate you and tell you that ketchup is colored sugar. You can't have that. Yeah, you want your soda. You really want your soda. Water is not enough.

Okay, so go for the Diet Coke. Don't take the soda with the sugar. Again, somebody's listening like, oh, Diet Coke's bad for you. I totally agree. I'd rather drink water, but again, let's not let perfection be the enemy of progress. So that would be a McDonald's kind of a session.

And off you go. So that's kind of the second step with food. And then the third one is really empowering the patient, with, we can talk about AI, like AI-based tools. You go to a restaurant or you're trying to cook something. You can take a picture and we're instantaneous to say, like, hey, what kind of adjustment should you make? And tie that to your actual situation.

So how do you change that? And this happens every day, two, three, four times a day. And that's the kind of the self-driving car analogy that a car that goes straight is fantastic until you have a corner. And that's 100% of the diets in America, today. So you can't do one size it's all. And then before you have a follow-up question, this is

mind-blowing for people and ties to your earlier question as well. The adherence of Verta patients, again, which are like real Americans, not Sami real Americans, is twice as high at one year as

taking a JLB one drug. We have 83% adherence, retention of patients at one year, and look at any of the public available data, people stick to JLP once like 40%, maybe 50%, 30 to 50%, why is that?

Number one reason is the user perceived benefits. It's like, I can't believe, I feel this good. I can't believe I've lost 35 pounds. I can't believe I don't need to stick the insulin needle to my body. The stories that we hear from people is like, I'm 65, I thought I don't see my grandkids grow.

And I have so much energy that I'm gardening the first time in 20 years, or whatever that is. And you know this. When you're feeling really, really bad, you're sick and everything's hurting, and then that suddenly goes away. That's like, life is freaking awesome.

And so I think the number one reason is the benefits are so strong versus like a calorie-restricted diet way, like, this sucks, but I'm going to look good on a beach, at least for a week. How did the experience of benefits differ from GLP-1s? Just because we're segueing directly from that,

And certainly a lot of people listening will either directly themselves have experienced or know someone who has lost 35 pounds and feels more energy because the GLP ones do make you slightly more catatonic for the people who are wondering why they might feel sharper. That's actually one very plausible piece of the puzzle. But how do the perceived benefits differ in a way? And maybe there's more to explain it. and I'm sure there is, the sort of two-times GLP-1 adherence at one year. I guess that's what you said, right? So I'm just trying to identify where those two interventions diverge. First, I will say, our verted providers prescribe both oral and injectable GLP-1s

when appropriate and unnecessary and when our client, the plan sponsor like an employer, a health plan, have them in a plan design. So I just wanted to mention that so that. nobody thinks like, oh, this is some sort of nutrition dogma. No, there's effective pharmaceuticals, and especially JLB ones in obesity and metabolic disease contexts, are way better than the 1980s and 90s diet pills. So it's a real, real innovation.

You guys don't prescribe fan-fan to your patients? We don't. We don't. By the way, there are companies that do that to low cost of JLB ones, who absolutely we don't do that. I'll sound from very basics. The GLB ones 100% affect your application. appetite, so they change how much you eat. So you eat less. But they alone don't change what you eat.

So that's a starting point. And if you don't change what you eat, you're not going to be perfectly or even optimally, metabolically healthy. And so one example is you lower appetite, you eat less. But the second you come off these trucks, all the data shows that your weight sky rockets and more likely than not, you gain fat and you've lost muscle. By the way, we've shown the patients who come to us on GLB once, and once they discontinued the drug, for whatever reason, a personal choice or side effects, we've been able to sustain that weight loss.

This is probably some period of data. 18 months out. Soon we will have even longer-term data. But 18 months, no weight regain. Why? Because we start changing what you eat while you're on the drug. And if you do that. But to kind of sharpen the point to your question,

And obviously, we know the side effects of health and nutrition. None. Every drug has side effects. So that's sort of one thing. And these JLP ones are tolerated much better than many, many other drugs. But there's a lot of things. Nasha and stomach issues. It's interesting, we've surveyed the patients who are on JLP ones in our care.

80% of them say I either want to severely reduce the dependence on these drugs, so get completely awful. So this idea, which is prevalent, at least in the press, like, Americans just want to take a pill and keep taking the pill for the rest of their lives. Most people, if given the choice, if given choice, to be healthy without, they don't want to be taking drugs. Hopefully that answers the question of, like, what are the user-perceit benefits? Well, there's no user side effects when you're eating healthy food, but with the drugs, you usually have that. I'm not the expert to talk to kind of how energy-level, or kind of excitement or mood and things like that changed.

I think lots of data will come out when millions of people on these Shelby ones for years, but eager to see what happens. But there's definitely a lot of things to be fully aware, like lean body mass, in elderly population 65 plus people who lose a lot of weight than Shilpe once. Yeah.

Very kind of alarming reports coming up. Mm-hmm. So I want to get granular again with just a, hypothetical example of a vegan because this word has come up a couple times. And in a way, in my mind, I've always envisioned that as a tougher nut to crack than McDonald's. Just because so many, how should I put this, this is true across the board if you just walk through any grocery store, including whole foods. There are a lot of junk foods masquerading as health foods, which are full of ingredients that are terrible for you, incredibly high glycemic, meaning they're going to spike your blood sugar.

we can talk about like glycemic index versus glycemic load, but suffice to say, if you eat it and you check your blood sugar within 90 minutes, it's going to be a lot higher. And this seems to be true of a lot of vegetarian or vegan food also. So what would be an example of how a diet plan or, let's just say a meal or a day of meals for a vegan, let's just say, on the Verta program? Again, I will say everything has to be individualized, but to use kind of average figures, we rarely have to massively change protein intake for our patients. Maybe surprisingly to some people, the standard of American diet has a, no, keep or take. Maybe it's a little bit on a low side, but more or less the right amount of protein.

By the way, that's the most expensive maximum trend. So sometimes people are like, oh, when you start treating your patients, it must be so much more expensive. Well, actually, protein is the most expensive. We rarely change that a lot. In vegan context, that's probably the hardest thing to get right, to get sufficient amount of protein and you really have to get at least 1.2 grams per kilo, kilo, one kilo is 2.2 pounds of protein per lean or kind of normal body weight. So if you're 80 kilo, 80 kilo person, which is 176 pounds, that would be kind of lean person. You're kind of a lean person. You're kind of, 100 grams of protein a day is sort of minimum. You have to. So that's probably the hardest.

And vegans know this very well. You have to look at like nuts and tofu and many to rely on soy and are you willing to eat eggs. That would be one. So we figure out again with the patient, like, okay, what are you willing to eat? Are you able to have dairy? Some people are okay, but that's probably the hardest user to make sure that people get adequate protein. and protein is really essentially it's the only max nutrient that doesn't really store itself. So you kind of have to get it a couple of times, two to three times a day to maintain your body mass. Then after that, it's actually interesting to get the sufficient calories if there's a lot of crap, vegan food, meaning sugar or, you know, corn flakes or whatever, then we start replacing those

with healthy fats. And this is also a miscontrored. Like, oh, it must be so expensive because corn, is subsidized, hence, you can have an immediate amount of corn calories cost nothing. Well, guess what? You can buy 9,000 calories, so one liter of high-quality olive oil from Costco for like a, what does it cost, two bucks? So it's a misconception. So the cheap subsidized sugar calories can actually be replaced at the same cost. Now, if you're very, very overweight, you don't want to be replacing those calories because guess what? You want your body to give the

fat calories. And then around the kind of healthy vegan food, then we guide the patient towards sort of leafier, less starchy vegetable absence. So you can eat very sumptuous vegan food. And I think we even have, because this was a misconception in our very early day, so we've been pretty vocal. We have a bunch of patients who are vegan. If somebody Googles further health on vegan diet or something, there's a couple of our patients have sort of openly shared what they eat, but it's totally manageable. In fact, you just kind of end up throwing out the window the crap vegan food. So I don't know, sugar frosted corn flakes would be a perfect example of that or orange juice or something like that, which I love oranges,

but orange juice is essential soda. Tell me if I'm hearing this correctly. So it sounds like if you reduce the high glycemic junk that someone is consuming, you're going to, over time, improve metabolic health. But is it fair to say that, for instance, the truck driver who's eating the lettuce-wrapped cheeseburgers and drinking Diet Coke, like, man, you do that for depending on the size of the person and blah, blah, blah, blah, obviously. Like if it's a male, I don't know, maybe in three to five days, that person's probably clocking in at, who knows, zero point.

7 plus millimols, millimolars, I'm not sure you say it, ketones, beta-hydroxybutyrate, I would imagine. But in the vegan example, maybe you're simply reducing the glycemic load, but maybe not getting deeply into ketosis, just because the question in my mind was related to the protein, right? How do you consume tofu, tempe, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, while keeping your total carb count low? It doesn't immediately seem possible to me unless they're willing to eat eggs. right, but if we take eggs off the table, then it seems like you can significantly improve metabolic health, but it may not be through the vehicle of what would technically be considered ketogenic. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, that's why we don't really use the key to the key. Because, again, for two main reasons. One, you Google it and you get your version that you can either love or hate and likely it's wrong. And then two is it's all on a spectrum of. kind of a dose response curve, and we never want to let sort of perfection be the enemy of progress. And the less you have hunger and cravings and the better you feel, more sustainable and easier everything is, including just life. And that's what we teach to our patients. And you can kind of be anywhere in the dose response curve and be successful. The further you are, we can pretty much

predict not just your help outcomes year out, but even the healthcare. cost savings, which is sort of insane. Because drug companies do these trials. You take one pill, this is what happens, take two pills, this, and then you kind of want to optimize where you want to be on a curve. Our therapy is no different. We show this to pay. We educate.

We say, it's your choice and you get here. The beauty is that we empower people so they can make their choice. And then the beauty also is that you don't have to be perfect, and you can still be very, very successful. Average diet is so bad, honestly, that it's relatively easy to make you early progress. Yeah, the standard American diet, sad. I just loved it. The acronym is sad. It's so good. Whoever came up with that. God bless you. What a great acronym. I want to get back to your training. So we're going to get off of Verta in a moment. But I want to say just for people who maybe have heard the last few conversations I've had with Dominic, I am deeply interested in ketosis and the ketosis and the ketogenic diet and exogenous ketones.

but I think Verda is is approaching this the right way with a greater degree of flexibility. And I would also just point to, for instance, the low carb diet and the four hour body, it is not a ketogenic diet. You're consuming legumes. You're consuming a lot of fiber in the form of beans or lentils, etc. It is not ketogenic in any way. But it does reduce or eliminate processed food. it eliminates most starchy carbohydrates except for one day a week. And the types of transformations that you can see metabolically are just remarkable.

And granted, you know, that is a book. So it, by nature of its format, is a kind of one size, hopefully fits most, whereas Ferda is much more adaptable and customized for the left-right turns that you described. But I wanted to just underscore the fact that I am not a keto purist by any stretch of the imagination. and most of the time I am not in ketosis, although I do spend time in that range. So I want to hop from Verta to a question around training.

So just in brief, what is, and I'm not sure this number even exists, but what is it an average non-athlete V-O-2 max, and what is your VO2 max? I think for, I'm freaking old, by the way, I just turned, do you know how old I am?

I don't know how old you are. You've got those impeccable finished genetics. I have no idea. Oh, my God. I turned 50 in December. Oh, nice. Congratulations. Yeah.

So I'm very, very old. This is at least what my... Not that old. Two kids tell me who I like 10 or something. But I think at this age in particular, or even like a 30-year-old fit male, so V-O-2 max is measured relative to your body weight. So it's how much oxygen you can consume, your body can utilize. So it's milliliters per kilo per minute.

I think it's maybe 40 would be on the average side 4 or 0 maybe or 35 or 40 or 45 my measured is more than 80 80 milliliters this is pretty high

very high the caveat is it was measured like a couple of years ago so it's probably a little bit lower today the max V-O2

max tends to go a little bit down as you age you can still kind of increase the percentage of that that you can produce for 5 or 10

or 15 or 20 minutes But yeah, it's kind of very, very high. I think the highest ever measured recently, it's more than 100. But if you're 90, you're kind of Olympic, 85 to 90 gets you to Olympic podium in endurance sports. And again, that's not the one and only measure. There's a lot of other things. But if you're above 90, you should not be doing a podcast. You should be in the Olympics.

Well, good news, bad news. I'm going to stick with the podcasting. I am definitely not above 90. So the reason I'm bringing this up is that in conversations with my doctors and people I really trust as well as a number of podcast guests like Tommy Wood, Dr. Tommy Wood, who is a neuroscientist and phenomenal athlete also. The topic of endurance training as it factors in, I hesitate to use some of these labels, but endurance slash aerobic training as it factors in, you'll see very quickly why I'm struggling with terms, factors into. health span and longevity. It's become a topic de jure in the last handful of years in particular. And the way it's been presented to me is, and I'm particularly interested in this for its implications for cognitive health and potential volumetric changes and the hippocampus and so on

with certain types of training, but given that I have Alzheimer's in my family. But the way I've been taught to think about it is that, let's just say zone two is the base of the pyramid, and then VO2 max is the height of the pyramid. And you're trying to maximize the total surface area slash size of that two-dimensional pyramid. And I will confess, I'm very ashamed to confess, I hate sitting on a stationary bike. I absolutely loathe it. I find it so boring. And I also just see these long-term changes in the sort of kifosis, like the hunchback postures of some long-term cyclists. And I want nothing to do with that. I have enough back.

issues as it is. So my question for you is when you're trying to get a normie to do more endurance like training. And I am on the path. I have some spinal issues with the lumbar and sacral, sort of kind of segments of the spine, which I all bore everybody with right now. But I'm hoping to get to a point where I can actually do sports I enjoy like jiu-jitsu or other things, which at least for high-intensity interval training, mimic something like the Norwegian four by four really well. So I could do a round of four minutes, take three minutes off, do another round of four minutes. And like maybe it's four minutes on, four minutes off or three minutes off, but close enough if I'm doing it consistently. But as it stands right now,

I can't really do incline treadmill with, say, a rucksack or something for Zone 2 because of the hip extension and the issues that causes in the lower back. So despite my best efforts to avoid the stationary bike, I keep on ending up on this damn stationary bike. And road biking just scares me too much with the traffic, say, in a place like Austin. Everyone I know here has done road biking for more than a handful of years has had some type of accident. What would be your advice for someone who's like trying to get literally back in the saddle to do some training? How do you think about this type of training as it fits into health span and so on? Because I I'm not intrinsically someone who enjoys this particular type of training.

And I remember for the four-hour body, I was in South Africa at the Sports Science Institute of South Africa, and they did a muscle biop my quadricep, my vastis lateralis. And they looked at all the enzymes. And I can't imitate a good, quality, strong South African accent. It's pretty good. It's a great accent. But years, I can't even say years. That's how you ferret out in South Africans or the North English.

But the point is he came back and he showed me these charts of enzymes like citrate synthase, which seemed to be correlated to endurance capacity. And basically his message was tertius. I think that was his name. He said, this flat line is Homer Simpson and here is your line, which is like infinitely below Homer Simpson. So I don't think I'm very well built for this stuff. This was a long litany of complaints. But how would you suggest, I think, about this kind of training?

Because it seems important. I'm not sure how to make it more interesting. I do find the interval stuff a little more compelling, and it keeps my attention more than the zone too, but it seems like you kind of want to do both. What are your thoughts? I'm just turning this into a therapy session. Sure.

Asking the non-coach, a coaching question, my favorite topic, pretending to be an expert. I will take it. I will take it, yeah. So my approach to, I've had a coach, and then I'm essentially 95% of my life, I self-coached myself because I take it as an interesting puzzle to try to learn and then surprise, surprise as an entrepreneur, I don't really want to be told what to do.

So ended up self-coaching. So based on that experience and with that caveat, first of all, on a high level, my approach basically in everything in business, metabolic health training is kind of nailed the basics, less marginal gains than crazy. And I know it's boring and doesn't sell a lot of supplements and stuff, but it's like, nail the basics, less marginal games than crazy. And when you do that, you get sort of, that's when you actually get the 99% of the results.

And for training specifically, also, whatever you want to accomplish, and you've done a lot of sports and lifting. The very basics are very simple. It's progressive overload and specificity. Like progressive overload and specificity. If you don't have progressive overload, even if it's just walking or hiking or running,

you aren't going to get better. Initially, when you've done nothing, come off the couch. It's like very easy, progressive overload. It's like, do anything and you get better. And then the other one is just the sort of specificity. Like, if you want to be a sprinter, you can't train like a marathon runner and vice versa. And, you know, if you want to squat a lot, benchpress isn't going to help a lot. So it's literally those principles that I use. But to give specific advice to you, what you just said, to get the cardiovascular stimuli, you obviously have to get your muscles burning oxygen, using oxygen, and then burning either bad or carbs,

and your heart rate up. So you need to do something for that. The reason cycling or any kind of a bike thing is so widely used, it doesn't take space, and if it's indoors, it's very safe, and it's very safe, and it's low impact. It's all impact. So one thing I would say for the bike is, and Austin has a lot of good bike stores. I have two indoor-ableness. bikes upstairs. One was set up by tech from Mello Johnny. So I've got the bike. There you go. So one is bike fit. If there's someone who's like a PT and a bike fitter and say, hey, I have these XYC issues, fit this bike to specifically work for me as much as I hate it. So that's one thing where you could like get the handlebar crazy high or something like that. Maybe even do a lot of

standing. By the way, those are fun workouts to kind of, I don't know, do like three minute standing, a three-minute seat, or three-minute standing, or whatever. So that would be sort of one thing to consider for the bike that you get a fit

that's specifically for your back issues. It may not be the world's most aerodynamic, but if it's stationary bike, who cares? So that's one. The other thing,

you don't have a lot of snow around, but I know you occasionally go to places with snow. Nordic skiing and sort of skinning, obviously fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic. Skinning, I love.

I love skinning. If I'm outside, I'm not going to get hit by car. If I could do skinning every day, I would. And my back actually loves it. So yes, I'm 100% behind skinning. And then, of course, often people who kind of totally destroyed their knees and hate swimming, which I hate swimming personally as a triadly, well, elements of it are beautifully. You go underwater and it's kind of like meditation, but more than 20 minutes and it's like, please give me a break. See, I will take the swimming over the cycling. I went and did some swimming

yesterday. I'm up for the swimming. And then if you live in the mountains, it's very, very easy to get sort of zone one, zone two by just walking even without extra weight. So you go up, up, and sort of speedwalk. And then maybe the last one I say, if you have the self-confidence,

not feel too embarrassed, is Nordic walking. So Nordic skiers to summertime. You either walk or run with them, but you basically have poles and you go uphill. You'll probably get an extra 10 beats, heartbeat, and kind of a higher level exercise. So it's kind of like jogging uphill with pulse.

Poles, yeah. Obviously, you could just walk and then use it. I could get into that. I use pulse. Yeah, I could get into that. And then to the sort of V-O-2 max, so building a better aerobic engine in like zone 2 does help your V-O-2 max 2. And then, of course, if you lower your body fat, body weight,

the kind of denominator in the calculation improves. But specifically VL2 max training, you actually get the adaptation pretty quick, So I don't do it all the time crazy a month because it can also burn you out. The two most common ways to really hit VOTM max is either you do sort of 30 seconds on-offs for a lot, like you go very hard and then 30-second easy, but then essentially you kind of keep hitting the VL2 max oxygen consumption or sort of two to four minutes all out. They're very, very hard or two to three minutes all out and then you take three minutes off and you do that, whatever, four or five minutes, four or five times.

So those are the most effective, I would say, and typical ways to specifically get your V-O-2 max up. But they can burn you out if you do too many of those. And so, like, for me personally, what I do typically closer to like a specific event or race, it may be like three weeks where I do two of them a week. So just like six workouts. And then I drop it to, I don't know, one every two weeks. or something.

You can burn out, then the VO2 max isn't just not going to infinitely keep going up, bad news. And so maybe that's how I think

about finer sport where you can comfortably and enjoyably do an hour or so of cardio, whatever that is. And then this

would be my advice. Think strategically when you do your like a VO2 block and that could be just three weeks or maybe it's two weeks every quarter

or something like that, and then the maintenance dose, again, I'm using dangerous terms here, because who knows what the optimal dose is. But constantly pushing the VO2 max, I think it's just the entry risk. It burns you out, and it's not going to do anything,

because once you reach your VOTOMX ceiling, you kind of are there. Broader question I want to ask you about is sort of what exercise dogma or sacred cows you have stress tested because I was looking at, this is a blog post that you wrote,

this is a while ago, and I actually don't have written down here the title, but it's about hacking your running speed in four weeks, and I'm tempted to read this whole thing, but I'll just read some of it. So my total running time averaged

one hour, 55 minutes per week. It's a four-step protocol for four weeks. So first, and I won't read all of this, but develop muscular endurance by running 10 to 15 minutes every day. That might surprise people. It's like, hmm, that's more achievable than I would have expected. And you contrast that with the conventional approach of doing like a long run once a week

and increasing the distance each week. So I'm not going to steal the thunder. I want you to, we could comment on this as an example, but then broadly speaking, just kind of like unfounded sacred cows because, man, there are so many everywhere. Not just an exercise, but everywhere. Number two, build your cardiovascular engine with all out. I think this is 10 by one minutes set once a week on a treadmill for regulating effort. So the total workout is less than 35 minutes.

You give links to scientific evidence. Number three, pliometrics for quick improvements in running efficiency. Even highly trained endurance runners seem to improve their running times in a few weeks of pliometrics, which is not that much. Roughly five minute routine three times a week, three times 12 explosive box jumps, three times 12 jumps for max height, which sometimes replaced with skipping into a hill I don't know what skipping into a hill is. Maybe you can explain that.

And this approach took 40 seconds or roughly 10% per mile off my best running speed in four weeks leading up to a competition. Typically, a 5% improvement per year is a huge jump. I mean, that's kind of bananas. And then you also added the note. Simultaneously, he gained about a pound or two of body weight, so my speed gain wasn't due to change in body weight. So this seems to, and I just confess that I hate endurance stuff. I'm really waiting into the deep end of my ignorance pool here, but this seems to fly in the face of a lot of conventional recommendations.

So I was hoping you could, you can speak to anything that I mentioned, but also just broadly speaking, dogma in exercise. Because there's so much crap, and there's so many things that never really get stress tested in daily living, health, wellness, you hear all this crap all the time where it's like, you only use 10% of your brain. That's not true. Like evolution wouldn't allow that to be the case, right? Drink eight glasses of water a day.

It's like, well, really kind of depends. I mean, there's so many recommendations you hear over and over again. So what have you uncovered? Well, first of all, that particular, like, oh, my God, I need to get fast in running, came. I wanted to do a triathlon. This is already a couple of years. Actually, just about 10 years ago. Wanted to do a triathlon.

and I was training to row across the Pacific Ocean with my wife in a robot, which is a whole other conferences we're going to have. And I had stopped kind of running, and I was lifting weights, doing a lot of front squads. I was weighing 200 pounds. And like right now, I'm kind of in a cycling scene. So my weight's like 177 pounds. I was 23 pounds heavier. It's a lot heavier.

And I was like, whoa, how do I go from zero to hero in note? I want to be the Tim Ferriss of running. Like, how do I hack this? You don't want to be the Tim Ferriss of running. I can tell you. That is my Achilles. So how do I hack this? And in that approach, I basically, I wanted to slice and dice running performance,

or at least the minimum fancy Silicon Valley term, first-ringibles, but into its contributing parts. Like, what are the one or two, three things you need to have? One, muscular endurance. Like, you can be cardiovascular fit, but go and run a downhill for 30 minutes or even 10 minutes. Like, your legs are noodles. You can't continue running. So you need minimum dose for muscular endurance.

runs so that your legs don't fall apart. And I think I was training for like a triathlon that had a half a marathon. So 13 miles, 13 by 1 miles to run. So muscular endurance was one. Then there was the efficiency you mentioned and so forth. But anyways, to go back to the actual broader question, a couple of things for me. One, especially for endurance sports, one is triathlon and for like a marathon running and other things.

One is like, you massive load and volume and you kind of get more and more tired. over like six weeks, eight weeks, maybe 12 weeks, and then you taper for two or three weeks. And you hope that after your last crazy week, in two or three weeks, you dig yourself out of the hole, and then you're super fast on a race day. It's like literally you're on a knife stitch all the time. And I completely changed that in the last four or five years I was really competing in triathlon, which is I want to be ready to race almost at the end of every week, meaning progressive overload, but stay vibrant. And no matter how hard of a workout I do say on a Saturday or Sunday,

by Wednesday I have to be ready to hit hard and feel like I can do almost like my best numbers. Personally, I found that more effective, avoided any kind of overtraining. And I think when you're lifting weights at the gym, this concept is very easy to grasp, much easier to grasp. It's like, let's say do your bench press. And for three weeks, your reps or weights just keeps going,

down. Everybody would be like, what the if? Like, clearly I'm not either eating enough or I'm lifting too often, but endurance athletes do exactly that. They kind of keep grinding, grinding, grinding, they get more tired, and they hope they get out of the hole. So that would be one thing that

basically training in a way where you progressive overload, you hit your body, but then in sort of three to four days, you are back better, faster, stronger than ever. And then you keep repeating that. personally I found that at least for myself way safer, way more objective. And I always knew, oh, I'm getting stronger.

Oh, I'm getting more tired. All right, I'm going to take two days off or maybe I have a full rest week. So I would say that's one thing. The second thing, again, I'm not a running coach or running expert per se, but especially if you have a multi-sport approach, it's way better to train the cardiovascular engine on a low-impact machine. So cycling. So if you're like doing triathlon, I've done much.

more than 10 full distance ironments and fastest was 8 hours 24 minutes which is pretty fast for an amateur especially before all the aerodynamic gains that people now have on bikes so maybe I could take 10 15 minutes off of that but 824 is pretty fast I run a 256 marathon off the bike I think was yeah 256 2 hours 56 minutes after swim and a bike so reasonably fast but my longest run to be able to run a marathon in a triathlon was usually one hour or 20 minutes which is like I don't know nine or 10 miles

so just as an example that would be the second thing that I don't think you need specificity in that sense if you need to build a cardiovascular engine do it in a way that doesn't beat your body down so like cycling versus running so I think that would be one thing

and then let's leave the nutrition aside but that's like a war like how much should you eat carbs versus this and do carb loading and all that. Needless to say, I'm personally a huge believer that as long as you sort of fuel the work while you do it, you don't have to gain

because glycogen stores three grams of water. So if you have 600 grams, let's say 600 grams of carbs glycogen in your body, so that's 2400 calories, you have another 1,800 grams of water. So it's 2.4 kilos. So that's 5 or 6 pounds. If you're fully loaded, I haven't found even for very long distance.

You don't need to gain 5 or 6 pounds. If you drip feed and fuel the actual work, you get to the same results. Controversal statement, but that's my experience. I recommend people read the blog post also. And since you mentioned it, and we're probably not going to go for a six-hour conversation, I can't not mention the rowing 24-100. hundred plus miles with your wife. I think that was 43 days plus, 43 days, three hours, something like that, which is, sounds like,

I mean, it really sounds like a divorce camp to me. And we could spend another three hours just talking about this insane decision to throw for that 2,750 miles, roughly, from California to Hawaii. I mean, the flight itself is pretty long from California to Hawaii. But my question is around domestic peace or minimizing violence. And I was looking at this piece in USA Today. And it says that you had a written and signed formal document that not only described how you would treat each other in the journey, but even how you would respond to specific complaints in Christ. It's like the only thing more Sami than rowing, you know, almost 3,000 miles.

is having this document. So I wanted to hear about this document and if it was as helpful as you hoped it would be. And also anything else that you guys figured out in terms of not killing each other over that period of time being stuck on a boat. For listeners, the context is, indeed, it's 2,400 nautical miles

from Monterey, California to Hawaii, Waikiki Beach, the shortest distance. But weather wasn't really our friend. And so we ended up doing 2,750 nautical miles. And I think it was 45 days and three hours, but who's counting? So essentially, a month and a half, almost seven weeks of rowing with my wife and completely unsupported. I just want to be clear, no helicopters, no follow boats. Like, they weren't like submarines around us and helicopters dropping bonbons.

So it was just two of us. First of all, there's so many life lessons. And if you team are fortunate to find a woman of your life, that's definitely a way to test the relationship's longevity. Yeah, yeah. If you survive it both and come out together, and I will say this, we have been married for four years,

we have known each other for six years, having gone through that experience and hopping off the boat on a platform on Waikiki Beach and hugging my wife, that still is the sweetest moment in my life and hugging her and knowing there's only one person on this planet who knows exactly,

exactly what we went through, and it's my freaking wife. And the fact that we got it through, we got it through together. No amount of hardship is going to break this, including having kids. But anyways, so it certainly was life transforming experience in many ways. The documents, it served two purposes. One, in a kind of preparation phase, I maybe mistakenly wanted to make sure that my wife is 100% in. I was like, this is what it's going to take. This isn't show up in two weeks and start rowing.

It's going to be a halftime job for six months to even get physically ready and kind of train and know how to jump into survival suit. It's a half-time job. So part of it, the document was like, I'm signing into this. I'm not going to give up. Which sounds like husband is asking why I have to do that, but yes, that's me. And then the other half was about behaviors on the boat. and the most important piece of the document that served us very, very well is the following.

Any and every decision once it's made is water under the bridge. Because we had to make a lot of decisions around, you know, safety and navigation, and do we go this, and all that, lots of decisions every day. What do we do today? And you would never know if that was the right decision. because the weather changes and it's one thing to do that at home and then

you go to work and you forget it, but you basically stuck in a small stinky box in 45 days. There's unlimited opportunities to get back to it and kind of bigger about it. That was incredibly helpful and served us very well.

The one thing I will say and then you can ask other questions, we had a lot of time, obviously, 45 days, three hours. We started about six, six, seven hours, a day, so there's 18 hours a day to talk, listen, be together, can't escape, can't go to the bathroom, can't lock the door, go to the bedroom, you cannot. And so some of it was silence, some of it was we had to fill the airwaves and we had all kinds of questions to each

other. And one of the questions my wife had to me was, I think we were running out of questions. He said, listen, of all our friends, if it wasn't me, who would you marry? And as a diligent an engineer, I stepped into that trap and answered it going through friend by friend, landing on the very specific one. But anyways, that is a question no married or unmarried person should ever answer, but I answer. When you were done with your very thoughtful engineer's response to that question, how did she respond? And later was she like, yeah, I just wanted to like,

I just, for whatever reason, wanted to throw a Molotov cocktail into the boat and see what would happen. I mean, like, what happened afterwards? Well, immediate response, I remember it vividly sadly. It was, I can't believe that's the last one I would think. And, yeah, I had to explain myself out of it. But, yeah, it was a life transforming trip during which I made several big life decisions, one of which we made together, which was to start a family, which also is a common. complicated, obviously big decision to have kids. And entering the boat, we were both convinced

that life's too good to destroy it with children. And we literally changed our minds within the hour at the same time independently, which is quite something. So, all right, you decided to start a family, meaning you made the decision to start a family on the boat, or you actually started trying to have a family on the boat? Both, actually. So I think we were about seven or ten days into the trip. It was very, very stormy early and I had had enough kind of white space to ruminate about life and it was like a lightning strike. I still cannot explain this feeling of like, you know, I was in my 30s. What is there to do? You know, I could start five more companies and I don't know, put my name on the side of a hospital,

which I don't want. What's the meaning? Essentially, it's the existential crisis. Like, what can a human do? What's worthy of the life? And obviously there's a number of things, but the lightning that hit me was, wow, can you imagine raising a child? That's incredible. And I turned to my wife and said, listen, this is kind of weird because we talked about this and we don't want, but I just feel we should start a family. And her immediate response was, well, I've been thinking about exactly the same for the last 24 hours, exactly the same last 24 hours. And then and there, it was, this is it, it's going to happen. And my wife happens to be even more decisive than I am.

So we had an iridium satellite phone. This is time way before Starlink, which is, works, but you know, you can send like a text message barely. And she texted to her girlfriend, who obviously wasn't drawing, and said, hey, can you, I'm going to give you some data. Can you start tracking my evaluation cycles? so you can tell us, text us back, when is the exact timing?

And we sure tried on a boat, and I will say that was the least romantic moment for both of us. And the fun part of this story is there's a little bit of a mystery, but we got off the boat just about 10 years and 9 months ago now, and my oldest daughter is 10 years old.

So there's a little bit of a mystery. what happened and where it happened, but it's very close. When you had that lightning strike, you both, very coincidentally or not, had that lightning strike at roughly the same time, if you tried to explain it, do you think it was just the incredible isolation of the two of you? Was it your wife saying, oh my God, I love Sammy, but I need at least one other person to talk to? if you had to try to explain it, even if it's grasping for straws, what do you think led to that lightning strike? My guess is it was the clarity of thought

when they were no distractions. The clarity of thought. And I think there's even a theory of the brain or the mind is kind of Bayesian. Like you have priors, you have so many priors and you're always stuck in your rigid thinking and, you know, obviously there's science that you can kind of loosen those priors with psychedelics and other things,

and then you kind of see things clearly. I honestly think that there was the ability to think cleanly and clearly, and that's kind of what contributed to it. And what I found in life is ultimately the human experience is 100% subjective. Outside of that, you know, it's just computers, right, and algorithms. but it's 100% subjective. And when you really tune into the subjective experience, oftentimes the biggest decisions in life are based on that.

Like, who do you marry? By the way, I had a spreadsheet for that too, but then I realized, met my wife, I threw the spreadsheet out of the window, and that was it. Same thing about having children. Like, the truly meaningful decisions, they are ultimately subjective in nature. And when you're truly in kind of touch, how does it land?

How does it feel? The answer kind of comes there. And I feel in the middle of the road goal, no email, no nothing, no job, no tasks, no to-dos, or to space, it was much easier to be in touch with that kind of experience and feeling. That's the story I tell, but may or may not be true. Makes sense to me, especially after a period of time of being on the boat, right? once you have the routine aspects more or less on autopilot, of course you have the decisions about angle and direction and so on. But I want to come back to something you said,

which was sure I could start five more companies or have your name on the side of a hospital. I know, as you mentioned, that's not of interest. It seems like you did not, this is from Forbes, so who knows, but did not own a car until you were 36. talks about how minimalist or some might even say austere you have been for certainly a period of time. And you're talking about renting cars from thrifty. It had the cheapest cars, had not bought a watch in 15 years, exercise clothes are all swag from various endurance competitions, which is funny because I sometimes get

shit for wearing all the free swag that I have. Like most of what I wear is free stuff that I've gotten I've never been accused of having a great fashion sense. Yeah, and the rest of his casual wardrobe is 10 copies of the same t-shirts and jeans. Literally this shirt that I have, I basically have crew and V-neck. It's the same brand. It's the same shirt. It's just different colors. So my question is, is that a Sami thing?

Is it a finish thing? And what are some examples of where you have found great value in overcoming that type of frugality? where spending money is actually produced a real improvement in your quality of life. Feels like a two-part question? It is, yeah. Maybe the start is, I think I mentioned earlier, that I find, people say sacrifice or you have to say no to so many things. I actually find saying no and focusing on the essential incredibly liberating, and it's kind of my happy place. And so for some of these, like crap around and too much choice, what colored T-shirt or

what kind of clothes do I put on. I love the fact that things are as simple as they are. And sure, life is way more complicated now than, say, 15 years ago. But I actually like not to clutter my life with money or anything else. Let's put it that way. And keep things very simple. And I'll briefly give the example of the car story. So, yes, I've had my driver license ever since it was possible in Finland.

It was 18. So 18. But I actually, I didn't buy my first car. my wife bought it, maybe I was 36 forced, because I had been renting thrifty car from San Francisco airport for, you know, eight years. Why that? So this is a funny story, but illustrates my point. Well, first of all, I didn't have any credit in America, and I needed a car after I came out to Stanford. So for work reasons, I go to thrifty and rent it. This was like 19 bucks a day. No credit. I could rent it. And then I realized, this is amazing because I travel so much for work.

I don't need to wash the car. I don't need to change the oils. It got broken into twice in San Francisco. I could just drive the $19 a day car to airport and drive out with a new car. I was like, this is so convenient. No worries. Ford Escape, that was my car of choice. And then one week and I came home years, years later, and my wife's like, this is it.

You need to own a car. You're an adult. You can't be renting all the time. And she bought me the same Ford Escape that I had been renting for like seven years. So that was it. So that's kind of what I think, mainly coming from that the sort of simplicity and convenience, focus on the things that matter. Sure, I have fancy bicycles to ride fast, but no cars.

What was the color? I want to know if you threw some flourish in there. Was it white or black or was it like electric blue with a racing stripe? Unfortunately, didn't have flames on the side. It was blue, the one that she bought. I got it. Yeah, yeah, it was. No spoiler on the back. Yeah. No, no spoiler on the back. So there's that. My approach of money is very, very, very simple. The less I have to think about the happier I am. And the fact that earlier success have enough for house and food and leftovers is wonderful. But if I have to be thinking about the leftovers at all, something's wrong. So it's just simplicity is very, very. Buying time is

very helpful. There's some things that just it's good to have kind of service and helpers around. I would say that's good investment. And then the one and only thing where I would say, yeah, I do like sort of living environment to have a house that you, you can endure, not for the sake of it, but to have the kind of little things and conveniences you have, whether that's to be able to exercise or roll into a lake, roll into a lake from your house. So I would say that, but the less I have to think about money, happier I am. It's just focus on a life and that life's happening, forget the money, life's happening, go and make it happen. Do you have any books that you recommend or gift to people more than others?

I am not a big book Gifter other than recommend for my like Verta team and sadly they are like professionally and they are all too kind of well known uncommon that they would add a lot of value there's the well what are they score will take care of itself

high output management what was the first one the score will take care of itself the 49ers coaches Walsh's book and high output management actually the high growth handbook by Elad Gilwitz is much, much, much new, and I know you've entered Elad.

Because that's some professional sitting. I do read a lot. If you want a block for a book that I'd really, really enjoyed over the last year, very inspiring, shows what's possible in life, and a little bit of leaves you wondering, like, what's really true in a universe and whatnot. He said, Trejo by Danny Trejo. Okay. Absolutely mind-blowing book.

Trejo is a period. How he's... Yeah, Machete. He's appeared in a bunch of Robert Rodriguez films. Robert's... Oh, my God. In Austin. That story.

How on earth did you end up picking up that book? In our family, I read a lot, but there's one person who reads more. That's my wife. So I'd say half of my book recommendations come from Herogers C screens, 10 books for everyone that I read, so it's a good filter. And I cried several times. I laughed several times, and I was incredibly insane. inspired and came out reading that book, belief in humanity, and just it was amazing.

If you had given me a million guesses for what you were going to say, I never would have guessed Trejo by Danny Trejo. It's a T-R-E-J-O, right? I'm getting that. Yes, yes. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Okay. Your full surprises, Sami. Also, if you are ever contemplating having a family, that book also gives humility as you think about how much can you affect your kid's life and I'm not going to keep a spoiler but uh all right all right all right highly recommend i'll get it on kindle today i mean we have covered a lot i have a few questions i'd love to ask as we start to wind down but is there anything else that you would like to cover make sure that we discuss or anywhere you'd like to point my audience i mean i'm going to link to everything in the show notes of course they

can find, you know, Verta Health, V-I-R-T-A-V-A-V-T-Halth.com on the website, and we'll include everything where people can find it easily. But is there anything else that you would like us to cover? I think you cover things very, very well. I would say my professional duty is to be an evangelizing and say this very sad metabolic health mess that we find ourselves in America and globally. And this sadly, the common sense thing that, oh, the disease is a lot of, that we talked about type 2 diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular is they are chronic and progressive and the best we can do is to manage them with an ever-increasing load of medications. It's fundamentally not true.

And whether that's spread out something else, I just want to be very clear that there's hope in the horizon and the hope is largely in the form of nutrition, but not in a traditional way that you need to restrict and suffer. So that's sort of my professional duty to bring hope and say, if you're living with type 2 diabetes, and by the way, people who are living with type 2 diabetes, usually their family members, their relatives, and you've seen people lose eyes and limbs and lives because of type 2 diabetes,

to me, mostly completely unnecessarily for the last three, four decades, that that disease, among with other metabolic health conditions, is fundamentally reversible. And you don't hear that from your doctor today, sadly. And it's not doctors for their well-meaning, but you go to medical school. You get literally zero, zero-point-five hours of nutrition

training and nobody tells that conditions like type 2 diabetes can be reversed like systematically not miraculously and so hopefully i can be a messenger of hope that these conditions are reversible especially after i already disclosed that i used to live thinking it's your fault it's your fault you're just lazy you don't have the world power but that's not true nobody gets these things because they're lazy or they decide, it's because of our food environment. And the food environment kind of slowly, but surely poison cells. But a few little tricks and changes, you can actually turn back the clock. So that's my PSA. And I want to say to folks, if you're a large employer, who are the actual customers if it are health, right? Like, who should actually go check out

the website? Yeah. Thank you. That's so nice. Anyone who pays health care costs in America could be should be a customer. If you pay healthcare costs, you are paying for the party of people staying sick and others profiting from the sickness. So this includes self-insured employers, and we work with like 800 of them. So essentially all fortune thousand employers, self-insurer and thousands of others. So all self-insured employers obviously health insurance companies when they take risk on their patients. And this includes the private Medicare advantage, private Medicaid, managed Medicaid organizations, state employee groups. I think we work with 13 out of 50 states today already.

So state employee groups. And then some government entities. There's VA, there's DOD and others. So anyone who pays, any payer who pays healthcare costs could be our customer. And our pitch to them is, guess what? We'll help you make money. Yes, indeed. We'll help you make money.

And as side benefit is, we also save lives. And I say that because the law language of American capitalism is dark. And so when you can help someone else to make money, you're going to be very, very successful. And I love it. Verta has done something that I wasn't sure it could be done. You have, as you already mentioned, I mean, the world's largest data set of this type of metabolic health and disease reversal. And the way that you've been able to refine and engineer and iterate and further polish a program for individualized care, and sort of mass scale adherence, it's mind-boggling to me.

Like, it's really, really incredibly impressive. And I don't want to say I know how much work goes into it, but I think I have an idea of just how challenging that is because I think of myself as someone who kind of specializes in behavioral change. And to your point, you can do a lot of really innovative things once you free yourself from the tyranny of the perfect, not letting perfection be the enemy of progress. and that is the mistake of a one-size-fits-all approach,

like you need to be on the ketogenic diet and you need to hit this minimal concentration of blood, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just not going to work on a mass scale. It just doesn't work. But when you have different ways to help people improve 5, 10, 20%, 50%, the way that moves the needle over time, this is not the right way to put it, but it defies conventional explanation in the way that, as you already put it,

a lot of doctors have been taught in their minimal exposure to, say, nutrition. So the science that you're doing, and I'll say it, so it's on me, but really what you're doing with the controls and with the trials, but also with the cohort analysis and everything else you're doing internally, like the science you're doing is incredibly, incredibly valuable. and I don't just mean that in dollar science. It's valuable to humanity. So I really applaud you for building Verta.

And I just felt like we needed to have this conversation because A, you're just such a freak of nature and I wanted to talk to you about all the things we've talked about. But also because what you've built is something that I wasn't sure it could be built. And with the many text messages and seeing a lot of stuff that just blew my mind, I wanted to have you on. so I'm glad and grateful that you took the time. Yeah, thank you so much.

And honestly, I appreciate those kind words. It's 11 years in the making and never take it for granted. Bigger company, bigger problems, but trying hard every day. Well, I'm going to pick up Trejo, which is not what I expected to be my immediate next step after having this conversation. But for everybody listening, we will link to everyone. everything in the show notes. You can find Sami. Certainly, you can find V-V-V-R-T-A-R-T-A. You can find Sami-Incanan. Good luck with the spelling. S-A-M-I-I-N-K-I-N-E-N-E-N on all of the places. SammyIncanon.com on Instagram, X, et cetera. I'm not sure how active you are on those.

But check out the blog posts for sure. And we'll link to everything. thing. As I mentioned in the show notes, at tim. blog slash podcasts. Just search for Sami S-A-M-I. I can promise who he's the only one. He's going to pop up. Until next time, just be a bit kinder than is necessary to

others, but also to yourself. And take those 20 minutes on Sunday, plan it out, get those things in the calendar. Otherwise, it's going to get crowded out by the universe. And then, woe is you. Woe is us. So take care of that.

And Sami, again, thank you so much for the time. Thank you very much. All right, folks. Until next time, thanks for tuning in. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me

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