The Tim Ferriss Show - #89: Laird Hamilton, The King of Big Wave Surfing (Plus: Gabrielle Reece and Brian MacKenzie)

Episode Date: July 15, 2015

Laird Hamilton (@LairdLife) is widely considered the greatest big wave surfer of all-time and an innovator in board sports. He’s the creator of tow-in surfing, and largely responsible for the rebirth of stand-up paddle boarding. Hamilton starred in multiple surfing films and was the centerpiece of Riding Giants, a documentary about big wave surfing. A contributing editor for Men’s Journal, he has been featured on Oprah, Charlie Rose, 60 Minutes, and The Ellen Degeneres Show. Laird was also the featured expert in the surfing episode of The Tim Ferriss Experiment. Laird is known for using his healthy lifestyle to raise money for charities including, Race Across America, Pipeline for a Cure for Cystic Fibrosis, Rain Catcher, and Muscular Dystrophy. Gabrielle Reece (@GabbyReece) has been named one of the “20 Most Influential Women Sports,” and is best known her success in volleyball, modeling, and for a starring role as a trainer on The Biggest Loser. A volleyball champion, Elle magazine called Reece, “One of the five most beautiful women in the world.” Reece used her crossover success to become the first female athlete to ever design a shoe for Nike. Brian MacKenzie (@iamunscared) is the founder of CrossFit Endurance and the author of the New York Times best-selling book Unbreakable Runner. MacKenzie created controversy by suggesting a counterintuitive approach to distance running, which challenges high-mileage runs, high-carb diets, and incorporates intense strength training to conquer everything from 5K runs to ultra marathons. He was also prominently featured in The Four-Hour Body where he showed how you could prepare for a marathon in record time.  MacKenzie has been featured in Runner’s World, Men’s Journal, ESPN, Outside, and the Economist. In this episode we cover a lot of ground, including: Challenging your beliefs and physicality with underwater weightlifting, elevation masks, and exercise efficiency Laird Hamilton's potent magic yellow energy elixir The characteristics linked to success How to cultivate a thriving relationship: Training, Confidants and Value Systems Laird's formula for invention in sports Advice for an older, perhaps beat up, athlete seeking to get back to high-level performance Laird Hamilton's mantra of "training for life" [1:08:39] Links, resources, and show notes from this episode can be found at http://fourhourworkweek.com/podcast This episode is sponsored by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could only use one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is, inevitably, Athletic Greens. It is your all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in the The 4-Hour Body and did not get paid to do so. Get 50% off your order at https://www.AthleticGreens.com/Tim This podcast is also brought to you by 99Designs, the world’s largest marketplace of graphic designers. Did you know I used 99Designs to rapid prototype the cover for The 4-Hour Body? Here are some of the impressive results. Click this link and get a free $99 upgrade: http://www.99designs.com/tim Give it a test run. Enjoy!***If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews!For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Visit tim.blog/sponsor and fill out the form.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So check it out, tim.blog forward slash Friday. If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot and you can, of course, easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you. Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. And welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where I deconstruct world-class performers to tease out and pull out the routines, the habits, the breakfasts, the favorite books, the behaviors, and so on that you can use in your own life. Borrow from these individuals who have achieved the pinnacle of whatever their chosen field might be, whether that's chess, hedge fund, managing sports, acting government, you name it, military, it goes on exciting folks. And I was very nervous about the tech and managing all of the cables and so on, but it turned out even better than I could have possibly hoped. It was after a workout with these people who all could kick my ass in so many ways, it is impossible to count. And that is a

good thing because if you are the strongest person in the room, if you are the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. And we have three people. So we have first Laird Hamilton, who is widely considered the greatest big wave surfer of all time. He is also a very innovative influencer in modern board sports and surfing. So he is considered either the creator or certainly popularizer of toe and surfing, which allows him and now many, many other people to surf waves bigger than ever before possible and is largely responsible for the rebirth of standup paddleboarding. If you've seen people stand up paddleboarding, chances are on some level you have Laird to thank for it. Laird has starred in many surfing films

and was the centerpiece of Riding Giants, a documentary about big wave surfing, which if you have not seen, you have to see. It'll make your palms sweat within the first few minutes. It's insanity. And he's also considered the rider of the heaviest wave of all time, or at least at the time that Surfing Magazine had him on the cover. And the only caption was, oh my God. So he's been a contributing editor for Men's Journal. He's been on Oprah, Charlie Rose, 60 Minutes, The Ellen DeGeneres Show. And he's also very well known, and I admire Laird for this, for using his lifestyle and his skill set to raise money for charities, including Race Across America, Pipeline for a Cure for Cysticic fibrosis, rain catcher, and muscular dystrophy, et cetera. He's an awesome dude. And the only person perhaps as intimidatingly awesome is his wife, Gabrielle Reese. Gabby has been named one of the 20 most influential women in sports

and is best known for her fantastic success in volleyball. but she's of course also done modeling. She's had starring roles as a trainer on the biggest loser. And, uh, Reese is just incredible. And I've had a chance to work out with Gabby. Uh, she is every bit as incredible as Laird and they're both about a foot taller than I am, but, um, let's not go there. That's okay. I feel okay. In my, my gnomish like stature. In any case, uh, Gabby has also used her sort of crossover success in these different fields to become the first female athlete to ever design a shoe for Nike. And she now serves as a fitness expert for Yahoo health among many, many other things. The last person in our little menage a four, I don't know how to say that in French is a Brian McKenzie. He is the founder of CrossFit endurance and the author of the New York times

bestselling book, unbreakable runner. Uh, Brian has created a lot of controversy and he was featured in the four hour body for a lot of it by suggesting a very counterintuitive approach to distance running, uh, in which he challenges high mileage runs, high carb diets, and incorporates a lot of intense strength training. In some cases, very brief strength training to conquer everything from five Ks to ultra marathons. And many of you out there have used his protocol, his sort of eight week to 12 week protocol in the four hour body to go from running nothing to running marathons and ultra marathons in record time. So congratulations. And Laird, for those of you who didn't see it, was also one of my surfing coaches in the Tim Ferris experiment. So just check that out, itunes.com forward slash Tim Ferris, two R's and

two S's. And without further ado, here is Laird, Gabby, and Brian. Guys, welcome to the show. I'm so thrilled to have you guys here. And I thought that we could just start off with a description of what just happened, because I came in here this morning terrified of this workout. And Brian had something else in mind. And I came out of the workout really exhausted, feeling great, and having done things in the workout I didn't think I was capable of. And I was hoping, Laird, maybe you could just describe the training a little bit. That seems like a perfect scenario. No, I was very surprised. Yeah, it did all those things to you. Well, and, and, uh, I mean, ultimately I think it's about challenging your beliefs, but also challenging your, you know, your physicality.

So, I mean, within that scenario of, you know, the things that we've done, which were thermal regulating the heat, the ice, the pool, the, the, the lack of breath, the, the effort of, you know, of swimming and jumping and, you know, the pool, the lack of breath, the effort of swimming and jumping and all the physical stuff. I mean, there's just so many things happening simultaneously. I think it really is about just complete confusion. Yeah. And what I also realized, and for those people who are not familiar with Lyritt's pool, and why would you be, there are stairs, there's a staircase built into the middle of the pool so that people can walk down. But then you might think, well, wouldn't you just float up to the surface?

But you have everyone weighed down with giant dumbbells. With giant dumbbells. Well, it's not a set of steps that brings you into the pool. These are steps that are underwater in the middle of the pool. Correct. Yeah. Correct. And what I realized.

It's for when it's empty. Right. Exactly. So you can do your workouts when the pool is empty. And, uh, uh, the, uh, so Gabby, you gave me some very good advice. I just remember holding dumbbells and you're like, your eyes don't need to be as wide open. I just looked like, I don't know, a cat in a corner, I guess, probably bug-eyed and faster is not better. And I was hoping maybe you could just elaborate on that.

Because I think it's a really interesting concept that translates not just to the workout in the pool, but to a lot of things. Well, we were just saying that earlier that it's very true to life that it is more about with purpose and with a calm manner at times can actually be more effective. And so the water really exaggerates all of that and also forces you to sort of yield to that method. And so really just looking around takes up oxygen. And actually you did very well today, so you have to give yourself some credit.

Thank you. But a lot of times we're so focused and our eyes open. Like when you play land sports and you go to focus, you do open your eyes. Right. Really widely. It's a focus mechanism, right? Right. But in the pool, it's quite opposite where you have to relax.

Everything that you can relax, so all the air goes to the places that are doing the work. Right. Your eyes, your jaw, everything has to relax. And then it's moving in a way that you're, it's what, what amount of oxygen are you giving up for the amount of effort you're putting in and finding that sort of sweet spot of this, this effort, especially when you're not doing like really heavy, heavy weight. Right. And it's more about the pool training, obviously. And Rick, who we both know, Rick Rubin, who's been on the podcast has talked about this. And you were talking excited about these days, one of the answers was the breath training. And I just love to hear what you were doing with the breath training, sort of what some of the results you've seen, uh, because it's such a fundamental aspect of all life and sports, but, uh, having been exposed to like Wim Hof and so on, it's sort of come to the forefront of my mind, but this is my first time ever really playing around with it, doing an exhale, then trying to swim lengths of a pool, which is completely different. But what is, what

has been, um, what has been your experience and how are you doing some of that training? Um, well, I, I first was given that training mask by a buddy of mine in Hawaii, in Kauai elevation training mask, elevation training mask. And, you know, I, I at it, and it was a little weirded out by it. But with anything I get, I'm like, I'm going to screw around with it. And if it makes sense for me to screw around with it, I'll continue to screw around with it. If it doesn't, I'll toss it. And I immediately got a response out of my diaphragm. Like when I took a breath.

You had to use your diaphragm. I had to use my diaphragm. And for those people who don't have the visual, the mask, I guess it looks almost like a mask. Bane mask. You could use, right, a bane mask for construction, right? You have the ventilation. Correct. You can change the amount of airflow that's permitted. Correct. Right. Correct. So you can go, their whole scheme is from like 3,000 feet to 18,000 feet, and you can change all of those settings. Laird likes to play around with it with a little further which is typical um which is good you know so unlike him hey i know it's very unlike him so at any rate i i got a a quick understanding of this mask and i saw something

that i have seen fault in with every athlete i've really ever worked with is like when you see a spinal fault or you see a mechanical fault meaning meaning their posture, postures off positions off. So if I'm in, I'm making a quarter extremity violation, I am literally probably most likely making that fault with spinal mechanics, extremity violation, meaning one of your limbs is doing something funny. Now your limb is actually compensating for making up for the lack of stability that's going on here. So think of being overextended or being flexed too far forward. If I flex too far forward, I run into a wall when I breathe.

If I overextend, I run into a wall when I breathe. If I don't, I can breathe. And this showed me immediately that I could get people who did not understand this concept, which is a very hard thing to come by. I mean we could talk about it right now, and people are probably like, okay, whatever. But if I put the mask on, I immediately go to my nose. So I'm using my nose to breathe, which is, yes, you should be drawing in your breath for most of your breathing through your nose. And you're forcing that diaphragm to work. So getting that concept down and then being introduced to Laird and Gabby through my friend Kai,

I came up here and it was, it was just, it's exactly like Laird said, it's a, you know, it's mass confusion. We're confusing it. We're,

we're kind of tossing the entire nuts and bolts at you. And then it's exactly as Gabby's explaining in the fact that it's like, look, and bolts at you and then it's exactly as gabby's explaining in the fact that it's like look you actually have to be conscious of what's really going on and controlled and like hey where are you focused where are you doing are you the energy of oh my god that facial expression is literally costing you energy right that cost must you reps yeah yeah no exactly that. It costs you reps. That costs you reps. Or getting to the other side. And then all your friends see you not make it.

And this has made more sense to me in being not only somebody who is a competitive swimmer, somebody who's a coach, somebody who's worked but I specialize in movement but it's you will get efficient in that pool very quickly. Right, because all of the any energy leak is exaggerated.

Yes. Right. And just so people have a visual once again, the first exercise we did in the pool, I guess I had, I want to say started with 15 pound weights and dumbbells and then moved up, but you're sort of sinking to the bottom of the pool and then doing a shoulder press as you jump up to the bottom of the pool and then doing a shoulder press as you jump up to the surface of the pool. And then you're bringing your arms down to your sides, almost like you're swimming a stroke. And that's when you... Like a jumping jack.

Like a jumping jack. And that's when... In a big circle. In a big circle. And that's when you take the breath at the top. And so immediately I was like, oh, I'm holding my breath underwater, but I have to start exhaling as soon as I go underwater. Otherwise, I'm going to have to exhale and inhale at the top, and that's when I'm going to swallow water. And you're also going to shorten your amount of air you can get in if you have to blow out and breathe in, which is all, again, counterintuitive.

Cost money, baby. You know, exactly. Cost money. And what was just so, the learning curve was so fascinating to me because even after 10 reps or 15 reps, I was like, oh, that thing that I was freaking out about on rep three or four, completely unnecessary. Right. And then, uh, Gabby, I think you, you mentioned this to me as I was doing one of the exercises

I was even more terrified of, which was holding a dumbbell to my chest and swimming underwater back and forth across the box. That's called the ammo box, uh, is if you feel like you can make it, uh, exhale a little bit, which is so counterintuitive. That might've been B Mac. Right.

Yeah. Uh, but that's a trigger to your brain. And you make room too. Yeah. Well, it also gives you time because your brain goes, Oh,

I'm exhaling. I'm going to be inhaling. Right. So the brain, so again, it's a little bit of a confusion. Like you confuse yourself. Yeah.

And maybe you confuse your confuse your instincts, right? Like the breath holding, the exhale drill. You want to breathe in. As soon as you exhale, you have a mechanism that's designed to breathe in. Because you have pressure on the diaphragm. You want to breathe in. But once you teach the body to resist against that and know it's okay that you're not going to breathe in right now because you still have the oxygen, then it leads you to a new place. And what is – we've drained these glasses, but Larry, can you elaborate on this very potent

yellow elixir? It is good. I put air in my chest. Tim wanted to take a nap, but now he is ready to climb Everest. Thermogenerated. Yeah. And so we were doing the in-pool exercises and then we would do ice bath for three, at least three minutes. Minimum. Yep. And then about 15 minutes minimum in the hot box, the barrels on at 220. So I was about to take, I felt like I was ready for a nap and then I had this magic concoction. What is in this beverage? Well, that was fresh, fresh squeezed turmeric root. Yeah, and you have a whole box of this turmeric root.

That he has sent from Kauai, let's say. But you can get it at the store. Yeah. But fresh squeezed turmeric root, liquid pepper extract, and then raw honey and apple cider vinegar. And water. Yeah. Of course. To dilute it.

So that was fully diluted, by the way. No, that's intense. Yeah. But I really enjoyed it. And you also showed me something earlier, which is about the size of a large cat. It is a mushroom. What type of mushroom is this? Yeah.

It's called a chaga. Chaga. Chaga, which is- Pretty uncommon. Hard to find from what I understand. Yeah, rare, but rare more because it's unknown, but also its uniqueness of the habitat it comes from. Yeah. And then the ability to use it.

And most people just don't know about it. Yeah. But it's the most powerful mushroom in the world. They say the spores are found in the stratosphere. They found chaga spores like in the stratosphere in space. Well, isn't it the only mushroom, too, that grows on a living organism? Yeah. And doesn't take from it.

It's not living off of the tree. It's actually supplying the tree. It's a symbiotic relationship. I think today the theme for me has just been fear so far, my own fear. So I'd love to talk about that just a little bit. All three of you, I think have sort of befriended fear in some ways, but so Gabby, when, when you were competing or even now, obviously world-class athlete, what was your self-talk like before a big match or before a big event how would you prepare yourself for that well you know i'm not going to answer my voice i want to preface i want to help you

out with the question because i met gabby on a show called the extremist yeah and she was the host when i met her right right right and she came to interview me. And she had already interviewed like 60 other people and done an aspect of their sport. So for her, before a match in volleyball, like I respect that as an athlete. But for her to go out and jump out of a plane, to go hang gliding on some crazy, to do a dragster bike. I mean, these are because you're going into, I don't, I think, I mean, you can ask her the question, she can answer it instead of me, but ultimately ask her the question of where, what was more heavy, like before a big match that you were going to play, or like get on a drag bike that you've never been on and release the clutch and go zero to 60 in a

second. No, that's helpful. That's very helpful. So I feel like even more of a weakling and coward than I did before I asked the question, but let me, I have to say that when you, when you, when you practice many hours and you dedicate a lot of time to something, it does have a different value. You know, if I was doing MTV sport to the extremists, there was a margin of, I'm going to do the best I can. Yeah. And certainly, you know,

Laird always jokes that if there's, if there's like something on the line, then I'm very good. Like really focused. Like if you said to me, Hey, Gabrielle, let's go for a mountain bike ride.

And we're going to go for like three hours. It's totally rad and extreme and go downhill. I'd be like, I'm good. Yeah. But if you said, Hey, there's this point in purpose and we're going to,

I would do it then. So I'm a little different that way. You need the stakes or the incentive or the point of it. Kind of. And that's maybe not great, actually. I'll be honest with you. So volleyball, I had a different emotional attachment because I invested a lot of time, and it meant a lot to me.

Yeah. So I had a different expectation going into it. I would kind of go through a ritual that would get me into a different head, expectation, right? Going into it. Um, I would kind of go through a ritual that would get me into a different headspace where I was switching from, you know, me as a person to me, the competitor. But, um, what did the ritual look like? You know, it was sort of like the hair goes up in a ponytail and then you start putting some block on and then they put my, I clean my glasses. I put those on. It was all very thought out. I would detach away from everyone except my teammates.

How long did that pre-game ritual last? I didn't need long, maybe 15, 20 minutes. I was superstitious, too. I would never compete in the color red. If I wore something and played badly, I would not use that visor or hair tie or pair of glasses again. Right. So I did have those weird things. But I think, like any athlete will tell you,

there's certain things that I wish I had been better at. It took me, I think having children has made me less concerned with making everybody happy. Right. And I think even when I was competing, I was really concerned about how people felt. Right. So that was hard because it's hard to try to be, oh, you're trying to kick ass, but then you really concerned about how people felt. Um, so that was hard cause it's

hard to try to be, Oh, you're trying to kick ass, but then you're worried about how people feel. It's a bad dynamic. So I did have, I would change personality, but I will truthfully say that I also, I think I held myself back. So coming back to the parenting comment, so having kids has made you care less about what people think. Well, you just straight get meaner. You just get meaner. Cause you have no time.

To people outside of your kids or to the kids also? Everybody. Okay. No, I think, you know, listen, you have less time.

And also as a woman, we're taught as young girls, Hey, be nice. It's if you're nice girls act like this. And so it takes a long time to get to a place to go. Okay. There, I'm going to do things, say, and believe in things that people aren't going to like, and I'm going to be okay with that. Men do that so much easier, and it takes women a very long time.

And the only athletes I've seen that do it very easily are generally the youngest girl with all older brothers. They understand it's not personal much sooner than girls. And the other thing I always say is I wasn't really groomed to be a champion. Like Kerry Walsh, for example, her whole life was groomed. She was told at an early age, you're a winner. You can win. It's okay to win. Expect to win. I fell into winning and learning to win. And so that was another thing I had to overcome. How did you fall into winning? By being really tall and being decently athletic and getting into sports. But you didn't have the sort of familial support?

I didn't at all. And I was a late bloomer and all these things. So it was all like, well, is it okay to win? And it's kind of going good. It was all that weird sort of things that you had to overcome. So I think there's a lot of things you learn and children put things into real perspective for you. Age puts things into perspective and those usually happen kind of simultaneous. Yeah.

And you, again, you have less time, so you kind of cut through the crap. Cut through the chase. Yeah. Brian, so you've worked with a lot of athletes. You know a lot of world-class coaches. You've traveled a ton. When you think of the word successful, who's the first person that comes to mind? Well, these two are easily at that list. That's because you're sitting here.

Well, you asked the question. I'm sitting in front of two people. How about his wife? He's married to one. He has a badass wife. My wife. You swore when he said that. Yeah.

So what are the characteristics? Why do you? Without knowing who they were or what they were. I knew who Laird was. I knew who Gabby was. But irrelevant to the situation and what I was brought into and how I met them. And at the top of that sits happiness. You take away the financial side of stuff. You take away the extreme.

You take away the – like, hey, you know career the like hey i was at the pinnacle of sport like i was you know i i was a world-class athlete you take that away and you see how a dynamic is working and you see how people are functioning and they're happy they're surrounded by people who are happy they are it's it's a it's an ecosystem in itself um so i i think that's you know it's easy to just say that because they're sitting right here you know and because it's the truth you know um i know plenty of people like that but i also know plenty of people that are miserable that you know you would say oh they're so successful and it's like what do you consider that right if you use the bank account, maybe. Yeah. The bank account or like, even like just behavior.

Yeah. Like behavior of, uh, like I'm threatened by you. I'm, I'm insecure about this stuff. Like, it's like, yeah, you got some stuff to work on still. Yeah. Before we can, I'm not, I'm, I'm out of this situation. Like I've got to exit from this. It would, it just doesn't work enough for me.

Yeah. Like in the happiness, let's talk about that for a second. I'm out of this situation. I've got to exit from this. It just doesn't work enough for me. So the happiness, let's talk about that for a second. Because one thing that really struck me and why I like hanging out with you guys also and have wanted to hang out more was when I was filming for the Tim Ferriss experiment. We did the surfing episode, which was a blast. And thank you guys both for putting up with me for that period of time. And I suppose putting up with me now also, but the, the, the memory that comes to me when people are like, Oh, how was it? What was it like hanging out with them? And I, and it's the time at home when you were joking around with the kids and like doing the steam baths and the, the ice baths. That's, I was like, you know, it's not just the really, really, really good athletes who have maintained an unbelievable level of physical performance.

Uh, it's that you, you seem to have a very kind of integrated life, uh, with as spouses and then with the kids. Uh, but you obviously had, had, uh, some challenges growing up wasn't easy what have you uh laird like how have you guys thought about parenting and what you are trying to do differently with your kids well i think that it's our you know i think for everyone you maybe want to be the parent that you didn't have or you right or maybe you want to be the parent you think you want it right you know you also of course you, depending on the relationship with your parents, if you had an incredible one, then you want to try to be the parent that you had. So there was parents I – some of the parents I had were parents I want to be and some of the parents I had were parents I didn't want to be. And so you try to do the best you can, and you go from your instincts.

You go from your heart. I mean, when you really look at it, if I look at the most important thing for me in parenting, being parented as a young child was being loved. I go like being loved was probably – and if I can just – loving your children can override a lot of wrongs. Yeah. I mean, how do you demonstrate that? Well, I mean, that sounds like a weird question. But we do it really different. I know a lot of smart people who are just not good parents.

We do it different. They try, but they're not good. We do it different. So, for example, Reese, our middle daughter, who is more similar to Laird and very emotional, she would be going through something and- Thank you. No, she is. I know.

Straight up. And our younger daughter, more similar to Gabby, is a ruthless killer. True. Anyway, so Reese would be upset about something and I'd be like, well, let's talk about it. How are you feeling? What's going on? Reese, I mean, Laird would walk in the room, kind of take one look at her and just grab her and put her on the floor and hug her. And so I think one thing is we've learned is we try our best to be an allied

front. We never let the kids feel like they can wedge between us ever. So that's very helpful. That's for sure. And I think, believe it or not, Laird is more touchy, feely, love them. Well, they're also girls. I mean, if we had some sons, there might be a different relationship. Maybe. That's true. Because it's male-female at a certain point. It's daddy's little girls and mommy's little boys. It's just the nature, the dynamic. I mean, I had a mother that I had an incredible relationship with,

and you just have that male-female connection. That's true. You just don't with, you know, same sex. Two bullsacks, yeah. Yeah. So I think you have that. And then, you know, I make sure, like, I understand the nuances. Like, their favorite, they need this certain clothing and, like, lessons.

And then they can talk to me about their girl stuff. Yeah. And, you know, they know I'm not going to surprise them. Like I'm setting. But we're inclusive too. And we treat them like adults. We've always spoken to them like adults. Yeah.

We, we treat them like, like a, like an adult. We, you know, what do they say? Treat them like an honored guest.

In your home. Don't act like one, you know, but, but ultimately, you know, we treat, we treat them.

We take them with us. When we go, we all go together. When we go to eat somewhere, I mean, we go to dinner parties where no one brings their kids, but we bring our kids because otherwise we don't go. And the people that invite us know that, hey, if they come, they're coming with the- It's our family. Yeah. And we're tough on them.

We're tough on them. In what ways are you tough on them. We're, we're, we're tough on them. I mean, we just like, if they do something where that could be perceived as not using really good judgment, there's no like, well, honey, you know, we don't do that in this house. It's straight up like, what are you doing? Yeah. You know? So I think there's a direct, we have a very direct style of parenting, which thank goodness our children are a certain way, because for me personally, my kids are very stubborn and strong willed and everything else. But it would be much because for me personally, my kids are very stubborn and strong-willed and everything else. But it would be much harder for me if I had a kid that I'd have to coddle more because I don't know that verbiage as well.

But listen, I've had to say I'm sorry many times. That's another thing you learn as a parent. You have to learn to say sorry because you blow it. So you can, it's, sometimes you can go, Hey, you know what? I'm, I am extra tired today and I, my fuse is short and I am being unfair to you and I'm sorry. Like you have to learn that you're imperfect and, and kind of open that door up to like, there's times that you go, Hey, you know, I always say to my girls, do you feel loved enough? You know, because you want to know. And they're like, Oh, come on, mom. But I think you should ask.

Yeah, well, just asking says a lot, right? Even if they brush it off, like I would imagine kids. Well, it's also respect. By asking them respect. And also you're showing them it's okay to not be perfect because we're not perfect either. So we're not demanding some perfection out of them, which is totally unobtainable. Who can do that? But having said that, like right now, our almost 20-year-old daughter, she doesn't love us right now.

Right. Straight up. Yeah. She's not loving us right now. Yeah. So okay. Yeah. So it's not like, ooh, la, la, la.

And what's interesting, because Brian's comment talking about, that happiness or contentment or is a sign of success. And I always said as a parent to be a successful parent would be that you could raise a content human. Cause I don't know that many. So if you could actually be a parent that raises a content human, good parenting. Yeah. Yeah. And what I've, what I've also noticed just with, with you guys and then, uh, Brian and I, it's, I want to get your take on a bunch of things, is that you have, you mentioned the kind of wrestling to the ground. You have a very physical relationship with your kids. Oh.

And I think it's, no, no, no. But it's like, it's a very, as someone who's only recently gotten back into physical play, doing stuff like acro yoga, it's been incredibly effective at anxiety reduction, relaxation, and just feeling grounded and connected to other people. So I think that's also something that has struck me is just how you use a lot of physical interaction with your kids. But think about Hawaii too. If my kids were here and you go to leave, they're going to get up and

walk you to the door and say goodbye. In Hawaii, when you see an auntie or an uncle, you give them a hug. Right. There's a touching component of like tactile and all more how like, I mean, think about even animals, right? Yeah. Like if my kid does something and I'm going to grab her arm. Right, right. Even if it's physical and play, but it's just physical. In general, yeah. We're connected. But I also think that the physical is a, but it's just physical. In general, yeah.

We're connected. But I also think that the physical is a reflection of the emotional. Okay. Because if you do yoga and it's an intense position and you're having all this stuff, but this is for spiritual enlightenment. This is to come to a higher level of consciousness, but it's a physical act. So in a way, this physical relationship we have makes them mentally stronger, makes them mentally, you know, all these things are just reflection, these physical reflections of these emotional states. So all of a sudden, emotionally, they're a lot more open and do new things and handle and be tough and all that stuff.

Well, it's like the training in the pool earlier, the same element of transfer. Brian, you looked like you had something to say. I do have another question i think this all adds to the this this is happiness this is they're having fun with their kids yeah you i don't see there's only really a couple other people and the other person that really comes to mind when the same way that there's a family like this is kelly yeah star and and everything the star i mean I'm a part of that family. Like I am literally, I, I don't live there anymore. I used to live five doors down,

but I go up there, I stay at the house. I'm with the girls. I help the girls get ready. I'll take them to school. I'll like the whole process is this whole auntie uncle, this whole thing of being happy. And are we having fun? If we're not having fun, what are we doing? But they seem even happier than we are. Sometimes I feel like Laird and I are like rough around the edges a little bit. Like, you know, like there's no secrets and it's kind of, you know, like I feel like when I see Kelly, it feels like lighter and nicer. I envy that in some people.

I'm like, yes, but Kelly's Kelly. But you two, there has been very rare that I have seen it almost a, the same type of dynamic happening where you have a husband wife combination that is, is that works in the dynamic that it does. Well, here's a question for you. So the two examples that you brought up,

yes. Right. Kelly, Juliet, two of you, they work out together. Yeah. Right.

And so you, people say sometimes that, you know, those who work out together, Juliet, two of you, they work out together. Yeah. Right? And so people say sometimes that those who work out together stay together. Can you think of anybody offhand who does not exercise together? Spouses who are very happy in the same way. Can you guys? I'm just curious. Yeah. You can. Because I have friends, they function better when the two live their worlds and then they

come together. Right. Because in a way, even though Laird and I are independent, they function better when the two live their worlds and then they come together. Right. Because in a way, even though Laird and I are independent, I think we both need that touchstone with each other. Right. To kind of check in. Well, and it isn't maybe even the training because the joke is the only time we train together is in the pool because it's underwater and we can't talk. Because we don't train together on the land. Yeah, yeah.

Like Laird is my confidant and someone that I go to, to get bounce ideas off her and a mentor in other ways, but we don't actually train together too many, too bossy, both. Right. So that's the running joke. Like we don't, so the pool, it's cool. Cause her class is too hard. Oh yeah. Right. Like the joke is like we can train in the pool because we're under the water because we can't smack talk at each other. Just like you should do it like this. No, I should do it like that. You know what I'm saying? We used to play volleyball. It was bad. I used to be

the practice dummy. Yeah, it was bad. I would ride home in the back of the truck with the dogs. Because we'd fight. Like I would be in the back with the dogs in the truck. And I'd be driving the car. I'm like that underneath my breath and Larry would be sitting there and the dogs would be licking his face and he'd be pissed. And my team would win on some bad call.

And he'd be like, oh, you girls feel good about winning like that? You're going to win like that? And we're like, yeah. You don't get it. Any way to win. And Laird just can't understand that. So to be honest, let's not glorify. We do things together, but there's a lot of space. Because when you... Days are long and years, right? We're going on 20 years. It's like you have to find that pace. And there's some people, if they had nine to five jobs, maybe they should train together.

Yeah, right. So we have a different deal. But the number one thing in all successful relationships, 10,000 couples, there's only one thing that everybody had in common. No matter what the dynamic, because there's all the different dynamics, one thing that everybody had in common, no matter what the dynamic. Because there's all the different dynamics, one thing only. What is it? Great sex. That's a good call.

Yeah. That's a good call. Probably right. That was probably the second thing. Yeah. The first thing, that the man respected the woman. Yeah. Number one thing that the man, I guarantee you, that Kelly respects his wife.

He does. You can see the way he talks about her. He does. I guarantee you. Oh, yeah. I'll take him apart limb by limb. No, she has. Well, Brian respects his wife.

Yeah, and I respect his wife. It's exactly it. So that's the right narrative. Those three couples right away respect the man. But can I say one thing? And I know in all those dynamics different, like the woman's a bedridden, the male's a bedridden, she's dominant, he's dominant, whatever. But ultimately more times than not, if the woman can refrain from trying to change or

mother her partner, she has a greater opportunity of putting herself in a position where the guy will respect you. Yeah. It's just, it's support. That's it. It's support. A man needs support. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I love you guys and you're all strong, but you're very fragile. Oh, yeah. And you need to be supported and help you fully realize your voice, whatever that is. Well, of course, because we're expendable, and so we have to go out and die for you at some point. Yes. So we better get it supported. You better support me because I'm going to go run in front of Tyrannosaurus Rex for you.

Yeah, and get mowed down. So how do you best support, as a woman, how do you best support your partner without mothering? Well, I had a great education, first and foremost. I'll be honest with you. I picked a partner who there was just no chance in hell, right? So Laird said to me, the first couple of years we were together, and unfortunately his mom passed away the second year we were together. I had a mom, and she died.

And he made it very clear. So what it did is it left me off the hook. Meaning, I don't need another mom. Don't mother me. And so what it did is it made me switch my brain right then where, hey, that's off the table. Because women by nature, we can't help it. We're nurturers. Right? So

sometimes that seeps over. Like, hey, honey, that joke was kind of inappropriate at the dinner table. You're talking kind of loud. It's all that. And then what happens is we somehow, because the man's trying to be loving and stuff, they pacify us and then they change all the ways we want them to and then then we don't want them. So it's a great thing where you just say, hey, I'm going to pick a partner that I feel like our value system is similar. We may

get there very differently, but our kind of how we line up on some of the big items are the same. And also what you learn is, for example, Laird is, when you're with Laird, you feel really loved. Like when he directs that at you, it's for real, right? But it's connected to, I'm restless,

I need adventure, all these other things. So you sort of say, you start to understand, hey, these things over here that make this person who they are, I'm going to love all of it. Right. Ignore the fact that he talks over me.

Yeah, these are small things. Because you have to start looking at the big things. They're doing the best they can. They're honest. It's like all these important things. And you let it ride. Oh yeah, they're here. That's another story. When I was like, I think I was 27 or 8 and Laird said to me, I said something about, I took things way more personal. Of course you do. And then you go, oh yeah, that's not my thing. He said, I said something and Laird goes, yeah, but I'm here every night. And in my mind I thought, well, duh, I'm here every night too. But I didn't really know what that meant. For a man to say, hey, I'm going to really try to be

with one woman. they're giving you most of what they got. Yeah. They're giving you like 80%. Yeah. And for a woman, maybe she's giving you 35. Right. Right.

So it's like to understand too, like understand people's language on how they give. Yeah. Let's say I was very shy and I came out and I was having a very nice sort of conversation with you. Maybe I'm giving you 200% because of my nature. Exactly. So I think it's also starting to understand who they are, they're giving how they can give, and receiving it that way.

But don't try to change them. Because I always tell my friends, if you want to be with a king, you have to treat them like a king. And if you're always like, do this, they're a pile in the corner. Brian, I'm going to shift gears for a second here. Um, what is the, this is going to be a jarring transition,

but that's my specialty as an interviewer. Uh, awkward segues, uh, your most gifted book, what book? And I'm going to ask you guys the same question. What gift,

what book or books have you gifted the most other people? That it's probably between two. All right. Uh, Dow Day Ching or, um, the, uh,

it's Dan Millman, uh, way, way of the peaceful warrior. Yes. Way of the peaceful warrior. Cool. That's,

that's like a starter for anybody. Like I mentor our work with who's looking. Why is that a starter? Because it takes you from a basic, like, hey, here's what's going on, to here's potential. Got it. Here's ultimate potential. You can't fathom that. But if you continue to put one foot in front of the other, you can achieve these things.

You can do what you set your mind out to if you're willing to take those steps. It may not happen tomorrow, but it can happen. And I think Tao Te Ching is just once you get to a certain level, it's like, wow. Like every little piece is like, whoa. Layers upon layers upon layers. That can make sense at any point of the day for me at this point. And that's, I think, the beauty in it. Cool.

Thank you. Gabby? Oh my goodness. I think, you know, this sounds ridiculous, but I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 15. And I gave that book to a lot of people because it shifted just sort of how I looked at certain things. And obviously on the simple read, I think I've given The Alchemist to quite a lot of young people because it's

that reminder as you go out in the world and you're looking for all these things that sometimes it is within us or right. You know, again, we laugh like we're back on Kauai, later grew up on Kauai. Right. You know, it's like you go around the whole world and sometimes what you're looking for is right in front of you.

Yeah. And I think it's more true to the idea of even, um, something about yourself or marriage or whatever. It's like, it's just right there. Yeah. You just have to work at it.

With Atlas Shrugged. It's very popular in Silicon Valley, of course. Is it? It's very, very popular. I was 15 when I read that book. That's a big book. That's a big book to tackle. I was a much heavier person when I was younger. I lightened up a lot.

Is that still a book that you would give to people, or is that just for a period of time? I think it was in my, the world is not as it seems of phase in my life, you know, probably till I was about 23 or four, but I think it's just sort of a good reminder about, it's not about not taking things at face value, but it's about maybe creating your own truth because we don't, we can't really figure out any other truth. Right.

An objective truth that applies to everyone. So I think I certainly would give it now, but maybe I would give other books now. Got it. Laird? Well, I'm going to go big here. At one point, I felt there was only one book, in my opinion, in the world, which was the Bible.

Okay. And I've been through it quite a few times. And you were raised religious? No. You were not? No. All right. Okay. And, uh, and I, and I've been through it quite a few times and you were, you were raised religious. No, you were not. No. All right. No. And, uh, but that's where I found the truth that I found that the, and I found that, and I didn't gift it as much as that. I gifted the teachings in it. And I think the parables are such a, I love parable teaching because it's so tangible. But when you look at just the basis of what – and what I find is that when you find the truth, it doesn't matter what the religion is because the truth is a golden thread that winds its way through all kinds of stuff. And so that just was the first book that I found a lot of truth in it. And then I was able to share that with people,

parables, and, and then you run into so many situations in your life. And if you just look at basically the 10 commandments and you live that way, it would increase the quality of your life. Now, you know, as a young kid books that had the most influence on me,

you know, I mean, uh, you know, the Lord of the Rings was like a huge thing when I was young. My mom read those books to me and, and, uh, Rings was like a huge thing. When I was young, my mom read those books to me and, and like before I could even read. And so I went through the trilogy of those as a young man and, you know, Jonathan Livingston Siegel and the Dune and all these other fantasy books. But,

but the Bible really, I mean, that thing just had, you know, and then now if you came, if you asked me today, like what book am I gifting everybody today? Well, I'm gifting Natural Born Heroes. Like, that's my book of the year. We have a book club in our – Yeah, they have a man book club. A man book club. It's comedy. No kidding.

In the gym, it's comedy. In the gym, we train together. And then we have the book of the week or the book of the month. And whoever gets one, we go. And, of course, Rick's always a big contributor to Hutchie too. And I'm just, everybody's contributing, you know, uh, and they'll all get it. Deep survival is another great deep survival. Yeah. Lawrence Gonzalez, that's an incredible book. Um, and speaking about just fear and dealing with dealing with, um, fear fear but this natural born heroes is my that's my

latest kind of craze just because of you know again but all of these all fiction i mean all all uh you know not no fiction it's non-fiction non-fiction truth right it's all because i don't my the way my mind works i i don't want i don don't want, I mean, I was almost like I had the fiction when I was young to create imagination and fantasy, but really what I hunger is truth. Like what is the truth? What are facts? Give me information that I can apply. I want to be able to apply this stuff to life. So here's a question about some truth and testing truth that I'm really curious to ask you. And that is, uh, you're into testing stuff, you know, every once in a while, every once in a while when I'm walking around with a drip bag attached to me and like an implant occasionally, uh, you're known as an innovator in the sort of

water sports world, whether it's toe and surfing, uh, foil board, board, or any number of other things. Golf now. Exactly. Land now. Exactly. He's evolved. He's grown legs, moved on to land. What has enabled you to contribute in that way?

Because people have been playing in the water for a very long time. What are the characteristics or the moments that led to you being able to have these breakthroughs or contribute to these innovations? I think a combination of a couple things. I think there's a little bit of a formula that I've been fortunate enough to be subjected to through how I was raised and then, you know, like again, being exposed to, you know, the Lord of the Rings and Dune and some of these really incredible imagination. So development of imagination. But, you know, Thomas Edison is quoted as saying, you know, all you need to be an inventor is an imagination and a pile of junk. Right.

And so, you know, and I lived at the end of a road that, you know, where you didn't call people to fix stuff. You fixed it. And, you know, you didn't have anything that was you couldn't go buy stuff. You people to fix stuff. You fixed it. And you didn't have anything that was – you couldn't go buy stuff. You had to make stuff. And so – and then I grew up in a way where I was – there was racial thing because I was not liked for how I was born. So then I would be like, well, why would I be worried about what people think when I do something that makes them upset? Right. They're already upset.

They're already upset. They're upset for how I was born. So some of those things where you have an imagination and you're willing to subject yourself to failure, that's a big part of it. Of any innovation, you've got to be willing to crash and burn at the cost of looking like a fool, people laughing at you, and not letting that dictate what you do. I think peer pressure, if it was up to other people, they wouldn't let you do anything. No one would create anything because somebody, oh what's that that's a stupid whether it's your dad or you know i mean i i used to have you know i had a teacher tell me once in school you can't eat your surfboard you know oh you're not you can't eat your a boy you can't eat your surfboard meaning you're not

like that's not going to pay the bills no you're never going to make a life out of out of using that or i'm just saying but those are all the that worked you know i'm just saying, but those are all the – That worked. You know, I'm just saying. Worst advice ever. Or maybe you take that as fuel. Wrong guy to say that. I'll show you. But so I think it's all – I think those are a lot of the factors, right? Those are the key elements, I think, if you look at anybody who's willing to subject themselves to failure and – And relentless pursuit

once it's in the wheelhouse it is like the hunt is not going away talk about it and write it down give me an example of what's an experience what's an example

of the obsessiveness or the persistence it's, it's obnoxious. It's obnoxious. No, no. I'll give you, I mean, I am sure. Give us an example of the obsessiveness or the persistence. Well, it's weird because it isn't, it's weird. It's not so destructively obsessive, but it's just this tone that you've kind of noticed. God, that's still there, huh? Is stand-up paddling. Okay. So 1998 or seven or so, Laird decided, oh, I'm going to try that. It's another way to train.

And he was on a longboard using kayak paddles and then taping handles. And then before you know it, we're driving to some guy's house who he's asked to make Malama. Is that what it was? And on Maui, like extended wooden paddles. So he did for the canoe paddlers in Hawaii. So Laird went to him and said, oh, can you make it longer? And then breaking that one

and breaking another one. And then just trying new boards and, oh, that guy doesn't have boards, blanks big enough for standup paddle boards. So I got to find a guy, oh, there's a guy in San Diego, just like going nonstop, nonstop, break things, go out. And then on top of it, do it every day, like downwinder, another downwinder. What's a downwinder? So in Maui, when it's too windy to surf, maybe that means the wind's probably up. And in Maui, it's very windy. So he gets dropped off at one point and then goes with the wind down. Got it. And stand-up paddling, that was really one of the best first things that he used it for. And then

he incorporated surfing later. But I mean, just persistent and constant every day, even foiling. I really, if I look at foiling, it's like Laird ultimately has been practicing rigorously for the last seven years, quietly, patiently to get a ride and maybe another ride coming, but a ride that he had this winter on a wave that he's been secretly thinking about probably for 40 years of his life. So there's a patience, but a relentlessness that I'm like, wow, that is kudos to you that you can hang in there and do that.

Are you that simple that you just can say, hold on now. I mean, no, it's pretty impressive though. I mean, you've, you of course have exhibited.

No, no, it's very different. I would never, because you've achieved a lot in many different, no, it's very different. What is different? Because you've achieved a lot in many different areas. So how is it different? Laird says, like, I'm, you know, stern, I'm a low, steady flame. Laird goes at it at a different degree.

He gets there much quicker. Burns hot for a very long period of time. Yeah. And also, just physically that he can express himself for that kind of endurance is different. A lot of mine is mental. It's just different. But I really respect that in Laird because also he does it when no one's watching. He doesn't tell any, he's not talking about it unless it's to have a conversation about how to approach it, attack it, improve it.

And so it is a very personal quest that he's on for reasons of his own. Like one day we were driving up PCH and there was like literally all these stand-up paddlers out there. And I can remember clearly when it was Laird dragging his one friend Locke out there for seven or eight years before anyone was stand-up paddling. And I said, how does that make you feel? And he goes, I knew I was having so much fun. So it was never the idea of like, oh, I'm going to somehow bring this into modern day. It was, I'm doing this for myself because I have an idea that I want to express.

And so it's one of the things I appreciate. Or will it bring me fun and enjoyment? Straight up. Well, maybe that's part of the reason you guys are happy. That's, I mean, high on the list. right you're laughing laird so what's what's happening over there well could you explain to people also because the the foil boarding now this is takes my like fear factor to a whole new level because you're basically well why don't you explain it for folks but it's not like you just jump off the board if you if things are going sideways right i mean you're a cat you're a cat so what is a samurai sword what is it what is a Well, why don't you explain it for folks? But it's not like you just jump off the board if things are going sideways, right? I know.

You're attached to a samurai sword. What is a foil board? Well, it's a surfboard or just a board like a wakeboard with a big strut like a foil, which is – you see the America's Cup guys are using them, and it's a big shaft. It's three feet. It's over three feet long. Yeah, 48 inches tall. Beneath the board. Beneath the board. It's like a big fin. it's a big it's a big shaft three feet it's over three feet long yeah 48 inches beneath the board beneath the board it's like a big fin it's a hybrid it's a big fin that makes the board fly off the water but you're attached to it with snowboard boots and bindings um which you know you don't swim well with boots right and uh but it's it's something that we've kind of came upon as as you know all of it's about an evolution to try to ride the biggest surf in the world.

And so we, first we started and, uh, you know, with prone guns conventionally and then prone guns, like when you lay down on these big guns and then we knew that guns is the, the size of the border. When it's a gun, it's designed for giant waves. They're big, long. It's what, it's what, uh, all the, you know, the modern manual way to catch waves is. I mean, and it's an ancient way of doing it. But it's the – we found a cap, and we realized there was a ceiling, and then we –

And that's because the bigger waves move faster, or – Bigger waves move faster. We're not able to physically – Keep up. Keep up. And that's where the concept of towing came from. Right. The idea of being towed onto one and using the power to match the speed of the wave in order to ride bigger surf.

And when we did that, it allowed us to ride smaller equipment that was actually faster. Right. And then we could perform on these giant waves. And when you say giant, just for people who may not be familiar with big wave surfing, what are we talking? Well, I mean, you start – giant starts at 50-foot faces and then it goes above. So 60, 70, 80-foot faces, I mean, that's giant. Big surf is – when we say it's big, it's 50 and below. And then when it goes to giant and then then it goes to ridiculous or enormous, whatever. There's giant.

There's big. There's giant. There's enormous. And then everybody can get into 82.5 feet and all that stuff. But we found a cap at manual. Then we found a cap. Ultimately, we found a cap with toe-in. For toe-in.

And where's the cap? Probably in the range of 100 feet. the and the where's the cap at probably about in the range of 100 feet so that's that's that's and we know there's a cap there we know that there's an ability he knows because he's been there yeah so we know there's a cap and so at that point and in the continual pursuit it was how do we get where what are we going to need to do and we know that the only way we can do that is to not be on the surface because surface tension is the thing that creates the most drag, which is what is stopping us once the waves are moving at a certain speed. How did you do – now, the – what was the moment or the conversation or the event where it was like, holy shit, we could do this. Because the idea of putting the strut and having that foil-like effect on a board, it hadn't occurred previously.

Well, no, it actually, there was, it was, you know, it's none of this, I always say there's no new idea, just a new application of an old idea. So this, there's a seated foil called an air chair that somebody had in the garage on Maui. And one summer we were playing around and some of my friend goes, Oh, this guy's got this weird contraption. So we went over the house. It was in the corner,

had dust on it, cobwebs. And we're like, Hey, what's that? Oh, some stupid thing called an air chair. I mean,

it wasn't bad enough that he would let us keep it, but we got it and we wrote it and we were in it. Now were you being towed behind something something and you're strapped to it? Yeah. Mike Murphy created it. Yeah. Yeah. And you're strapped to it with a seat.

Like, and I thought it was for handicapped initially because the position was very, you're strapped with a belt. Yeah. You're in it. And that's a bad position. You have to tow people behind boats with them.

Yeah. And now they have a new one. So they would. Yeah. So now they have one called the sky ski where they do flips and people ride these things and do amazing things on them and you're towed behind a boat like a water ski boat and uh and so we got one and the first thing that we we wanted to do was stand on it because we go listen seating is not our thing again part of our motto you know stand up stand up on the golf board stand up on stand up paddling stand up like standing up better position to be in.

We're humans. You know, seated is not great. Crawling is not wonderful. Laying down is even worse. So we, uh, you know, so we started to stand on it. And as soon as we stood up, we go, oh, we can stand. I mean, it wasn't, it was hard cause we were, you know, using the seat and kind of, and we didn't have bindings. And so, uh, I asked sounds extremely precarious, very bad. And it's got,

and it has a big sharp blade on the bottom of it. So it's not something you don't want to be attached to because if the thing comes around, it's, you know, that could be a bad, you know, the Reaper, there's a problem. And, uh, but so then we just took, we took that and, uh, and we asked the guy if it was okay, if we, if we, uh, played with it as long as we didn't damage any of it. And he said, sure. So I took the foil out of the board and I took a wakeboard and we made kind of a makeshift housing so that the foil could fit on there.

And I put snowboard boots on it because we had been doing a lot of snowboarding and we booted ourselves to it. And within the first day or two, all of a sudden we're standing on this thing and flying. And as soon as we stood and flew and we knew we could control it, we were like, oh, now we have to go on the waves. We were like, this is going to be for wave riding. But did you tow behind a ski or your boat for like almost three years?

Maybe more. Yeah, in flat water. Like there's practice, lots of practice. Yeah. Not to mention, weren't you messing around with the hippity hop? Wasn't that the hippity hop? Or was that for toe surfing? No, the hippity hop was for, that was flotation device.

What is the hippity hop? Laird used to go out in front of our house in Maui with a hippity hop, and he would try to do it with spare air. Wait, I'm so lost. What is a hippity hop? What? You don't know what a hippity hop is? I have no idea what a hippity hop is.

It sounds like a rapper's delight, but no, the giant ball when you were a kid. You used to bounce around. Hippity hop. Laird used to buy hippity hops. It's a physio ball with like a kettlebell horns on it. And like the face of a horse on it or something.

Laird used to take those, fold them up really small and attach it to spare air, which is like basically one shot of air if you're for a diver or somebody under. And in case he was trying to figure out ways to have water. It was pre-flotation. And we were in the giant surf. We were still

kind of searching for flotation because we were worried about... Pre-flotation, you mean like the vests? Yeah. Pre-LifeVest, I guess. Yeah, but this was pre us using life vest in giant surf now it's now it's everybody uses flotation devices in the giant so so he can there's just let's just say there's a lot of stages between like now laird is riding with terry and they're doing it in kawaii to three or four years behind boats and skis, one broken foot.

We used them with kites because we were in the beginning of the conception of kiting as well. Kiteboarding. Yeah. I mean, more or less, the modern towboard is what made kiteboarding possible initially. And then the wakeboards came in after. But we were the first ones to get the French kites with the blow-up kites. The non-restartable k French, the non-restartable air ramp.

Let's talk about it. Where you just release the guy and he'd just fly as far as he could until he crashed and then it was over. Over. And sometimes you'd be like two miles out to sea with a giant quilt. Have you ever tried to swim with a quilt? It's very hard. Like a giant quilt.

I have enough trouble swimming without any type of encumbrance. With a quilt and a lunch tray. So literally the board was like a lunch tray and a quilt it's like you're two miles out and you're looking at the shore and you're like this is not a good day i mean it's good until you crash and then it's good but it all leads you it all leads you so how does the hippie hop with the rabbit face fit into all this well because it's all i'm just saying it was all part of like simultaneously trying to figure out the equipment and how to ride it and use it how to be safer and make it possible so would he be like on the foil board with the hippie up between

his legs or smart for that he'd be with it folded up and then he'd go out where there was some you know white water messing around and then he'd implode get dropped off and then pull it and then it'd pop up and see how we started just seeing if it was okay. So we'd have a pre-inflated hippity hop tied to our waist. So then we'd get dropped off in front of a giant wave. But we realized that the hippity hop would just bang you in the head. And you'd come up and you'd be face down and the hippity hop would be out of the water, but you would still be under.

So we stopped the hippity hop. This goes back to what she was talking about with the whole in whole incessant like I'm just going to do this. But here's the thing is I actually know guys who have taken – who have attempted to do the foil boarding and they just gave up because they're like it's too hard. It's too difficult. want to invest themselves into something, which is like, which is also why a lot of this stuff just works with like with the relationships that they have. And even the relationship I have with them is it, it is a, it's a commitment. It's a full commitment. Now, why do you think, why do you think Laird has the stick-to-itiveness when these other people don't? Do you think it's, and I'm not, I won't make it totally a multiple choice question, but these are the options kind

of running through my head, right? Just having observed how you guys live. Is it something innate possible, right? Is it influences that he's had? Is it the peer group that he surrounds himself with or some other factor or all? See all of the above? Yeah. Because I grew up in a very similar fashion um where i was very

rebellious where i was told i wasn't going to be able to do things i didn't i i screwed around i did and now it's like you come around full circle to that to where you learn how to get good at what something you were good at and where he learned early on is what it seems is that wow this worked this happened i'm making a living off of surfing or whatever that was that like, and he's not doing it in a contest. He's doing it on his own. Like she's grown up in an environment where it wasn't the greatest family environment to where she's thriving. And they've, they've created this whole thing where, you know, I was able to do things that I shouldn't, like I was told I wasn't going to do. And I did. And it was because of the, I was so passionate about what I was doing and I was willing to

commit to that and continue to see the results of what that brought that that became, oh, this is what makes sense. I mean, I just wrote something on an Instagram post yesterday kind of about this, where it's like, if you don't have the ability to pay attention enough to your training that to understand what rest is you're now in an OCD like behavior to where it's like you don't even understand how you're going to get better at something where it's just paying attention and it's like hey if I'm paying attention he said a key thing there paying attention but also paying attention but also part of paying attention is being aware of what's happening and seeing it before it's done and so i mean at the end it's about envisioning it too right you can see what you have to be able to see it to continue to pursue

it okay this is a really this is a super important point so for yourself what would be an example of that of seeing it and being able to well just any any one of the things i've been involved with so knowing knowing like for example we were able to foil some giant surf this this season now we up until then we haven't really ever been i was in doubt of being able to even though in in instinctually i knew that this is definitely the way to do this. This is the – but I didn't – I haven't seen it. And again, it's that ability to see it before it's – Envision it.

Yeah, envision it. To know it. And then you have all those other things that you need to pursue. But you have to actually be able to see it well enough to keep you motivated. So Brian, I have a question for you because you've worked with so many athletes. And I might want to ask you guys the same question. And that is – and Kelly is an expert at this as well. But what would your advice be to a, say – it doesn't really matter the age, 30, 35, 40, you know, Kelly's an expert at this as well, but, uh, what would your advice be to a,

say, uh, it doesn't really matter the age 30, 35, 40 doesn't matter, but a former athlete who's beaten themselves up may or may not be me. Uh, no,

it's not me, but, uh, somebody who's really just, uh, beaten the shit out of themselves who wants to either continue training or get back to the point where they're competing and God knows what, right.

You've, you've observed so many athletes. Um, what should they do more of? What should they do less of? More humility, more humility. Yeah.

I think, well, that's why I thought it was so important that you come up here. Yeah. Was it wasn't, Oh, I need to, I need a dose tim with humility it's

no it's like hey come see what it's like to apply something that you can do for the rest of your life yeah yep if you can't see what you're doing if you think at 20 that i can just bang away and go as heavy as i want as hard as i want long as I want, and it's not going to have repercussions. You're not looking at it correctly. And I've been there. I've done it. And I think this goes to – like this also comes around to I've learned a lot in the fact that I know – like for one, I don't have the only program. I don't – like what I'm putting out isn't the only way.

There are a thousand ways. It's no longer about me being right. It's no, and that's a lot with what they're doing. It's not about being right. It's, I see the potential of this. And yeah, the world now knows stand up paddle. Like they now know it. And it's not about i'm right this was me like it's not that it's not you know i think it's where as an athlete if you've beaten yourself up to the point to where it's like i've got to deal with

this injury i've got to deal with this stuff i'm not what i used to be it well, you have a lifetime right now. What do you want to do? Is it about winning? Is it about being the best at something or is it about how, how much better can I be tomorrow at what I'm doing today? And can I just chip away at a little of that? And that is what they have. Not only I have learned to surround myself with as people who are doing that, but that's what these two are doing. That's what Kelly's doing. That's what you've done with your career is you've literally immersed yourself into an environment where you have bred. I'm going to meet people who want to be in the long game. And, and, and that's what it's about. And, and it really ultimately comes down to that.

And that is for life we call that training that is what kind of training you're doing training for life that that yeah that's what the truth is there's nothing further from that is this is what the truth is and there can't be two sides professional athlete you know i mean i have a bunch of friends that are professionalized but one particular one and we were talking about his training and everything and i said go, let me just say what my perspective is. When I, when you asked me about training, train in a way so that when you're done playing, you can go do all the things you want to do. And I don't mean sit around and drink whiskey and smoke cigars. I mean, the things you want to do physically, like all of the things you want to do. So have a, have a training routine and go about your playing so that when you're done

doing that, you can walk. Maybe that'd be great. How about you can run? How about you can swim? How about you can bike? How about you can go water, ski, snow, ski, or whatever things you want to do, because there's obviously some things you're still going to want to do. Right.

And, you know, and, and so I think that's that's the the focus is right it's like training for life like training in a way that's sustainable that you can handle you like you said you can't just take the hammering for the next 60 years and then wonder well man i can't even walk and even when you do it that way it's still you have to do all the pieces too. You got to remember that, you know, as an athlete, you got to have, it's the whole picture. It's not just the physical, it's the eating, it's the sleeping, it's the relationships. It's all of those things, what you're putting in your brain, what you're putting in your mouth. I mean, these are all who you're hanging out with. All of that stuff is going to feed into the performance. Right. And I, so I noticed for instance, one thing I'd,

I'd never seen before. I've seen people roll out on foam rollers. I've seen people roll out on weird looking devices that, you know, Kelly makes that look like sexual, you know, toys. I've never seen someone roll out on a weight plate before.

Well, actually that Kelly, Kelly brought that and had the 45 pounds, and I was like, that's funny because I was just, somebody else had just given me the kettlebell. So the kettlebell was a wicked one until I got the platter from Kelly. Oh, you see. Did you see, give you the... So you're using the handle of the kettlebell.

Yeah, you handle the kettlebell on your psoas. On the psoas, in the gut. And then he won, Kelly one-upped me with the 45-pound platter. But I didn't have that one by the pool, so I used a 10-pound platter. Just to get in there. Just the plate. Yeah.

I think another important thing that Brian was saying is that hopefully you hope all of us, and you do this all the time, you're the ultimate student. Because you have to adjust. You always have to adjust and be open. Like, this was working, but maybe I should change it. Because it's a moving target. And be open to other people's information and not be threatened by it and give it a try if you're not good at it or whatever. I think that that's a really important thing because then you can keep growing and evolving. So for those athletes, I think it's

just be open and be a student, but then you have to be disciplined. So when you also have to be willing to accept your, your weaknesses and cultivate those, you know, it's like, it's funny because everybody, the strong people all go lift weights. So the flexibly people all go do yoga. Yeah. And you're like, wait, all you flexible people should go bang some iron and all you big weightlifters should go do some yoga. And all, you know, it's like, but we always gravitate towards our strengths because we want to be in our glory. So we're like, I avoid stretching like a plate, but I'm, I'm now just sore enough and hurt enough that I'm like, okay, it's time. I get it. I get it. But being the student, being the student, being the teacher, being the student, all that, and also, and again, the willingness to fail being one of the key elements to all those things is ever present because that means you're willing to subject yourself to, okay, somebody knows something I don't know.

That's failure. Right. Some new thing you haven't done before that you're not going to be good at. Yeah. Like people want to come in and be good at stuff. That's why the foil board drives half the guys away. Cause they can't just get on it and rip it the first time. Well,

not just the foil board, but like Brian, you're saying that, uh, I mean, obviously a lot of very good athletes come in and do the pool workout. And it's like, that's a big humility sandwich right there.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not good at it. It hits a lot of panic buttons. Well, that's also what leads out people. Yeah. Except Taylor.

We brought a girl, a rower up here. Um, that's also what leads out people. Yeah, except Taylor. We brought a rower up here. Rower like crew rower? Yeah. She rode with my wife in 2012 Olympics. The gods gave her it all. Yeah. And we brought her up here and we put her in the pool and everybody was just like. It was astounding.

She had the elements though because she was already a phenomenal swimmer. Yeah. Super strong. Lungs, heart. You know, again, good for her. She had the elements, though, because she was already a phenomenal swimmer. Yeah. Super strong. Lungs, heart. You know, again, having those key. The components. And she was very humble, but it was odd. Yeah.

She has all the physical attributes, but she was very humble. She wanted to learn. It was weird. It was weird. It was weird. It was weird. It was weird. It was weird.

It was weird. It was weird. It was weird. It was weird. It was weird. Perfect disposition. It was so weird. Yes.

Perfect disposition, because you put might and aggression over there, the water goes, oh, mighty, aggressive, perfect. I'll just drown you. So, yes. And normally, as males, we just implement aggression and power to something. Just muscle it. Yeah. And that here.

You're not going to muscle the pool. I'm sorry. So you mentioned weaknesses and strengths. And I wanted to touch on something that you mentioned to me earlier today, which I found very interesting. When we were doing the ammo box, ammo box exercise. And you talked about isolating limbs and isolating weaknesses. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Well,

we'll just, I mean, you know, and, and listen, we know that if you work on being more ambidextrous that you get better, it's like, you know, you know,

you throw knives with your right hand and you're really good at it. We'll start throwing them with your left hand. It actually makes you better with your right. But again, about isolation of the weaknesses is about being realistic about what your flaws are and working on those. And that's why anything to do with instability, when you talk about balance or in the pool, it really is going to exaggerate those places that normally you can compensate. It's hard to compensate in the pool when you have to swim with your left hand if you have a big dumbbell in your right hand because there's no other left hand there's only the one you have and if it doesn't work you got

to figure out how to make it work right and you can really and it really shows you you can really see you know you throw a ball with your left hand if you're right-handed and you feel like oh my gosh whose arm is this i can't even use this arm this arm or kick with your left leg. Or even when you go into stretching and you look at stretching, why is my right hamstring so much looser than my left hamstring? Why is my quad, my left quad so much tighter than my right quad? All those things, those are all weaknesses at the end. And what do you feel like your current weaknesses are that you're working on? Oh, it's ongoing. I got a lot of destruction.

I've been beating myself up for a long time. So my weaknesses have more to do with damage. But I got some hip flexor, something going on with my right leg because of the load that I put on it. Why your right leg? Well, it's my back leg in surfing, but it's also because my left leg's been broken seven times so um that's in surfing or other things uh other surfing and other things but i broke my ankle a bunch of times an arch and a bunch of all the metatarsals and stuff on the left the left ankle and the left foot has taken a lot of the of the impact and so my right's been

carrying it you know for all these extra years so it's got you know my my right leg has a couple maybe five or ten more years of use than my left leg so i'm dealing with that with that uh and and and the fact is that we're all asymmetrical definitely we're all i mean even i mean i told the girls the other day i go look at the tennis players i go look at their throwing hand and they're like, oh, my goodness, the guy's one arm is so much bigger than the other one. But you don't even see it unless you look for it. Focus on it. Exactly.

So, I mean, but I think that that's – again, those are the – right now, like I said, it's a hip thing. It's a – I mean, there's always – and it's a lucid thing. It's moving and it shifts around. But even with that, you're very disciplined. Like I have to say, Laird is a good patient. Like if he has homework, he does his homework. If he's told to do stretches, he does his stretches. So you're always –

But that's come out of necessity. That's because I've been hurt so many times. I mean you really don't learn anything about yourself ultimately until you've been injured. Again, back to failure. Back to failure, whether something failed or you did something that made you crash and get hurt but at the end you also the thing is that like even brian mentioned earlier the something that you have that you've discovered is he has the faith that they both go well if i do this then i'll probably be a little better tomorrow so they have that faith faith. And that too, Laird knows, okay, if I'm not feeling well, if I keep trying different things and I stay open and I do my homework,

I can probably be proactive in helping myself get better. And I think those elements are important because sometimes what happens is sometimes if people aren't feeling well, they're this aged athlete or whatever, they're so far under it, they don't have that faith anymore. The belief. Or they don't understand how to unravel that knot. And so I think it's like priming the pump. Sometimes the water doesn't come out right away, but then if you just keep going, it'll start to flow. And I think certainly in this situation, these guys have seen it enough times. And I think that that's a really important thing for people to figure out.

Well, if you have the fortune to actually have been through it and had success then it gives you hope definitely you know when it says you're one time when you've been perfectly iron man forever and all of a sudden something happens you're like the whole the whole house breaks and you're in shock and you can't where if you've been through it and you've recovered once and then you did it and had another thing and you've had enough stuff but you've made it back through it you you know, you, it builds the belief that you can do it. I think another piece of, of this, and I'd love to ask you about this, Brian, uh, is that a lot of athletes surround themselves with people who love to commiserate. So an athlete will be like, Oh, well, you know, I just turned 30 and you know, once you turn 30, like, Oh my God,

my aching joints. No, I know you guys are both covering your faces. And the reason is, you know, I've, uh, but this is so common. And then everyone sits around and bitches and moans and they use that as an excuse. Media and society too. Yeah. But what I love about, you know, hanging out with you guys are like Titus, right? I guess it was like, there's a huge, there's a photograph. So Titus was in the surfing episode of the, of, uh, the Tim Ferriss experiment, the TV

show and walked into his garage. And there's this photo of him surfing a 50 plus foot wave. And I'm like, what is that? And he goes, Oh yeah, it was my 50th birthday. I was just like,

I have no excuses. Like shame on me forever. Even thinking I have an excuse and, uh, hanging out with Rick for instance. And then I guess, um, the name is Don Wildman.

Is that, um, yeah, picture of him back there. Could you explain to people? And then Brian, I'd love to ask you, outside of the examples I just gave, sort of who inspires you in that same way? My only coach, really, I'm working with right now is just turned 62, a former four-time world record holder in Olympic weightlifting. And he can still do

what he used to do. I mean, not necessarily the same weights, but cold. You can just go out and jump into like ass to heels, snatch and tennis shoes. Uh, and it's so inspiring to me because whenever I'm like, Oh, woe is me. Like, Oh my poor left ankle. I'm like, suck it up. Ferris, like, give me a break. So Wildman, can you explain? Well, Don Wildman, 82. You know, 80 days of snowboarding last year. I just went heli snowboarding with him like a month ago or two months ago in Alaska. Just, you know, I mean, heli boarding is a rigorous activity, a week straight, you know, 15, 16 runs a day.

You know, third, fourth day you know third fourth day you're you're wobbly not a word out of the out of the gunslinger and uh you know he just is like you know but but when you meet him you know you you his his his hunger for for information his his his youthful enthusiasm you know it's like i think that is such a key element when you look at any of these guys you see an enthusiasm in him and I think that's what happens to a lot of athletes I think they just lose their enthusiasm their burnout they've been doing their

sports since they were 5 or 10 and they've been in the pressure around it and so I believe ultimately that it's a conscious decision with a physical manifestation and so Don was never accepting it as being, you know, he, you know, the guy that hold the, you know, he, he always gives you stuff like the guy that held the Olympic record for lifting was 52 or 54 before steroids and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. You know, when you see that and, and, and, but what's great about somebody like Don, who's my, my guy that I look to is that just, there it is.

Yeah. You don't have to imagine what it looks like. There it is. It's alive. It's well, I mean, you, you, I put Don on a bicycle and I can take pretty much almost anybody on a bicycle, unless you're like a professional bicycle list and he will hammer you, you will be hammereded and you will be asking me how old is the guy up in the front with the gray hair like 82 he's gonna hammer and he can still do

what like 15 17 pull-ups i mean oh yeah he's a pull-up machine amongst other things yeah amongst that's just so that's just a small that's a small tip of the iceberg. What would you attribute that to? Like why has he not lost his enthusiasm? And maybe a different way of putting it is for people who are like, God, I would love to have that enthusiasm, but I just don't. Like how do I develop that? What do I do? Like I'm willing to work. Like what do I do to have that youthful enthusiasm?

Well, I mean, I think in his case, he's got a couple driving forces i mean he has guilt and and he loves to eat so that's one like don has a unique thing about that that he can implement like he wants to eat whatever he wants and i mean and he loves to eat like you know cakes and pies and ice cream and like he'll just devour that stuff but he at the same time at at the same time he wants to be he wants to be he be – he's not going to be fat. He doesn't want any fat on his body. And so for him, he's earning it. Like in this particular case, he's earning it, right?

And also too, he always says it takes the piss and vinegar out of you. You know what I mean? Like he knows how it affects his mood and how it makes him feel. And so once you subject yourself to it for long enough and you're consistent enough, you know, it's, you start to get addicted to that. You're like, food tastes great. My sleeping's great. My sex is unbelievable. I'm just, you know, it's like all this stuff where he just, and then you don't want to lose that. And then you use that becomes the new normal, right? That's the norm. And then you don norm. And then that becomes the driving force.

And then it's easier. And it's never an option. You never make it. It's like Gabby says. It's not like you don't choose whether you want to brush your teeth or not. You don't go, I'm not going to brush my teeth this week. I don't need to do that. It's just something that you do.

Well, exactly. But no. Well, the other thing Don does that's very genius, it goes back to what Brian said, which is he solicits people to be in his group because no man can really do it alone. So he always has these guys around him, most of them quite a bit younger. So the energy goes into the pot and everybody rolls. Or girls. Yeah.

Yeah. Like his girl. Well, yeah. One girl. Yeah. But I'm just saying, but he's got a girl. But he loves to be a host and bring people with him and do things. He'll give you the bike.

He'll get your music set up for you. He'll do everything for you. Well, it seems like you're doing that. Do you think it's odd that he does that, that they do that? Starrett does that. Aaron and I do that. Like, it's like we invite, like I'm picking up a girl this afternoon at LAX who's going to be staying with us for a week to train and participate.

And, you know, it's like this is. Thank you for your 80 units of energy contribution to the pot. Yeah. The average has gone up. Now we're going to absorb that. Yeah. And also, too, it also confirms that it's like a reminder. Yeah.

You know, because, again, it's like Gabby said with the stand-up paddlers. At the end, when you go through what you went through today and I see your face and I know what it did to you. And I know later you'll be like sitting somewhere and you'll want to go to sleep. I'll be like, I'll be like, Hey, just give me the call. Like call me. Cause I want, cause it's confirmation of you that you're not alone. Cause when you're alone in something, a lonely place is a, is a, is an unmotivated place. Oh, that's a great way. It's an unmotivated place oh that's a great way you know it's an

unmotivated when you're long it's very unique to find a complete loner that has full maximum motivation really motive we we are communal we are communal but that's why we're subjected to all of this peer pressure too right we're subjected to social pressure of hey now you're 30 you're over here what are you going to do now? So, you know what I mean? But that's social stuff that we implement. So, but we, the reverse is that is, Hey, we're all together and you're 60, you're 70, I'm 50, I'm he's 30. We're all going, let's go. Yeah. So definitely. I was talking to my, my, my trainer's wife,

who's awesome and she also has a couple of world records, uh, and a super sweetheart. And she's, I guess, 55 around there. And she was, she said to me, she's like, you know, when people start to get old, she's, and she said, it's when they stop jumping, when they stop jumping. And, uh, you know, we can talk about whether that's right or wrong, but the, the followup was even more interesting to me because she has a daughter, a young daughter, and there was something stuck up in a tree. And she got up into the tree, and her daughter was like, Mom, be careful. It's really high.

And she climbed up 20, 25 feet, got the thing out, climbed back down. She's like, do you know what it says to a daughter to see her mom, who's 55, effortlessly go up into a tree, get it, and come down? It just shows her possibilities. or it'll make her. It's like, you know, sometimes like your kids see you train like you, like we train, they might be like, maybe I don't want to train. Maybe I don't want to climb trees. Mom's crazy. Brian, who other, speaking of crazy people, speaking of crazy people, Brian, who else sort of inspires you, people you look up to as say a Don Wildman type? It doesn't have to be someone older than you, but like who are the people you look to as inspiration when maybe you're feeling overwhelmed or burned out or fill in the blank?

I do a decent amount of reading and a decent amount of watching of documentaries and a decent amount of being voyeuristic with people who are creative, regardless of that creativity. A lot of it has to do with food sometimes food yeah well it's just you you look at what they're doing like 20 years ago maybe a little longer uh chefs were not looked at as anything right they were just here you're in the back cooking right you now if you've paid enough attention they are these masterful creators of things. One of the best documentaries I've ever seen is a movie called Spinning Plates. Spinning Plates. Spinning Plates.

It's a must-see if you're really looking to progress yourself because there's a guy by the name of – his name is Grant, and he runs one of the top seven restaurants in the world. And he has this way of dealing with food much like you see a lot of great chefs at this point where there's no country is he in he's in the united states his name grant akits yes yes grant akits okay so and alinea yes alinea yeah so he's got alinea but so they're following alinea but they're also following a homestead in like Iowa that's just this family-run place that the entire community goes to. And then they're following this Mexican place in Tucson, which is barely making it. And they play the entire show, and you're watching this movie, this documentary on all of these places and as they're progressing in their trials, their tribulations and all this stuff. And at the end, Grant has seen the entire thing. And you think he's this like demigod of, of food. And he explains what he does and he goes, and you know, and what I'm

doing is, is if somebody can come to my restaurant and they feel that they taste the food and they feel it and I get, and they come to ask in the back if they can talk to the chef and they say, hey, I feel like I know you. And he goes, that's exactly what I'm going. That's exactly what I want to do. In essence, that's what I do is it's like I want people to see how I see the world. Don't take everything I do, but let it inspire you to some degree. But he literally goes at the end of this thing, the Mexican restaurant is doing the exact same thing.

And it failed at that point in the movie. It literally, they, they had had, they went bankrupt and they didn't make it. And you know, it didn't last. And he's like, but nobody understood that nobody, because they think because it's not flashy and it's this thing that they're not getting that experience yet. It was that experience and that homestead, that's the exact same thing I'm doing. They're just expressing themselves in another way through this and we're not taking the time to understand that and i think that's where one of the missing links is with a lot of

people is we want this great huge massive inspiration but the fact is is every bit of inspiration you need or want is in front of you and anything you want if you're willing to go the length to be obsessive enough about it yeah and and i think that it like it's not just food with me it's like i just watched some coach do something the other day who i remember this kid like seven years ago at my buddy's gym and he was just this little kid who was just learning and wanting to understand he's doing things right now from a gymnastics perspective that he's showing people through social media of him doing things and how he sees the world that is just amazing and i'm like fuck i i get so much out of that and i'm like i'm gonna go and do some

stuff that's like inspiring me to do that and it's whether it's what you choose to get out of things i think what's his name his name is col Colin parody. Colin parody. Yeah. Cool. Check it out. No, I think it's, it's so true. I mean the, like you were saying, um, Laird that there, you know, no new ideas, just sort of old concepts that he has applied to new areas. It's like, you don't have to look in fitness to find inspiration, to be better in fitness. You can, you can look at someone like Grant. Grant's amazing. Of course.

Yeah. I mean, he cooked for, I think it was a period of one or two years with no taste because he had advanced tongue cancer. Like, uh, who was it?

Beethoven, I think who composed without being able to hear just insane. Uh, so I, I want to be really, uh, this is, this is so much fun,

but I want to be respectful of your time. So I'll just ask one or two more questions. Um, so why don't we start with, um, and I'll ask the same, same question of all three of you, but, uh, Gabby, uh, ladies first, uh, what advice would you give to your 30 year old self? Oh, well, I always say I would have, and I mentioned this earlier, but certainly not to take anything personal, but also maybe don't hold yourself back. I think sometimes, and I think this is a trait of a female more than of a male. We have a tendency sometimes to sit on our talents and potentials because we don't want to offend anyone or we don't want to be singled out.

You know, I heard a great story. I had a coach once that said he was an assistant coach to the men's USA volleyball team. And in this game, it was one point and the coach said, looked straight at Karch Karai and said, I need you to put this ball away and you to win this game. And it was like, boom. Okay. And he said it was amazing. And then he did it.

And then he had his opportunity. He was coaching a bunch of women at a very high level. And he did the same thing to the athlete that was the one. And everyone, it didn't work because all the other, it was like a singling out that women, we have a hard time with. Instead of understanding that you can be singled out, but still for the greater good. Right.

So I think I would have maybe not tried to, I think I sat on some of my talents a little bit. And also I think I certainly, like I said, I took things personally. So I would tell that person, like, don't take it personal. You know, I tell my kids, learn how to say, I'm sorry, that doesn't work for me. Again, I've learned a lot from being around men. I respect a lot of traits. You can, you can deliver a message without emotion. Usually women, in order to finally stand up for themselves, they have to be kind of ramped up and then it just comes out ballistic instead of like, no, that doesn't work for me. And then we don't, and also not to then second

guess that after you've laid that line down. Um, I think that that's really important. And then we don't, and also not to then second guess that after you've laid that line down. I think that that's really important. And I think, you know, it's important to like, if you have gifts and talents, whatever they are, don't feel guilty and bad or weird about it. And, and, but you know, you don't have to be a schmuck. I mean, you don't have to, you know, I always tell kids, if you're on the team, you're lucky. And if you're the best one, you're the luckiest. So it's calibrating all of that. I think I would have done that.

But, you know, we always say we're grateful for it because it gets you where you are. Grateful for? For whatever things you had to go through that you didn't or didn't do. So the notion of regret is, it's not that it's pointless, but, you know, it's sort of like that gets you to where you, where you are. Yeah. Good advice. Good advice for anybody. Uh, Laird, what advice would you give your 30 year old self? Stop drinking now. Oh my God. That's genius.

Stop drinking, drinking now. Stop drinking right now And patent all your ideas Good advice They go together well too Yeah Stop drinking right now Forget about the patents

Or if you file your patents And you're drunk also Kind of messy Yeah That is good advice uh brian what about you um 30 i think patient be patient be patient be more patient and what if what if your 30 year old self was like fuck that why should i be patient well that's why you know you don't understand just be patient you know i i think i was in a in a big rush at 30 you

know i'm 40 now and so it's like decades gone by and it's like if you know i i am so i mean i'm like wow like being paid like i am so much more patient now and there's much more work to be done but it's like it's just when it's piecemeal and it's, it's this just, okay. It makes so much more sense when you're putting stuff together. What has helped you most to become more patient? Um, I honestly, the experience, you know, and the relationships that I have, you know, the relationships that I used to have versus what I have now, wow. It's just better inputs. It's not even better inputs.

They're just real people. This is real. This is really real. I have a wife that is just amazing, that understands me on a level that it's like, hey, you need to do your thing. You need to do it. I support it. Go. I get it.

I have crazy behavior. I get fixated on things that I'm doing, and it's like she's like she may not get it, but she gets it. And that's so hard to come by when you're 30. I didn't date girls. And that was my problem, maybe, that it was like I wasn't patient enough to date girls when I was 30 or to be involved with women that I was at 30 that understood stuff like that.

To be involved with people and women like that is truly a blessing. So patience is definitely a big one at 30. What about you? What about you? What about me? Yeah. Yeah. I would, uh, I would have told myself start meditating. It's not just for hippies who play the didgeridoo. Start sitting down.

Rick is actually Rick Rubin's one of the, the, he and another friend, I was just going through a very anxious, rushed, like aggressive period where I had a short fuse and was just in a rush to get everything done. And, uh, spoke with two close friends. One was Chase Jarvis, world-class photographer, amazing guy. And, uh, he was like, you know, maybe you should try TM, you know, transcendental meditation. And there are many types of meditation. And then I was like, ah,

1500 bucks to get a mantra. No, thanks. That sounds like a cult. And then, uh, then I had coffee with Rick and he's like, have you ever thought about TM? And I'm like, God damn it. This TM. All right, fine. Uh, but just, uh, I would have said there, there are many, I worry with these hypotheticals of screwing up, like causing an unintended butterfly effect in the past. I'm like, no, no, I wouldn't have changed anything. I'm not sure I want to change anything, but the, I, I, it's hard for me to see how taking 20 minutes first thing in the morning to meditate would have produced any bad results for me. Well, that's back to patience. Yeah. Exactly.

You know what's interesting too in that book that Laird talks about? The Natural Born Heroes? Natural Born Heroes. If you're hunched forward, well, first of all, if you're hunched forward, you go into flight or flight, right? You have a physiological response. And now that we're all on our gadgets, we're all perpetually in this position. So it creates anxiety. And so there's things, and we're not in our predatorial. And we're not looking around.

We're not looking around. We're not looking around. So we're in this position, and then we have an instinctual thing to know what's going on around us, and we don't while we're doing it. And that just grinds on our system. So I think we're actually putting ourselves unknowingly in positions physically that are also creating an emotional response, one of them being anxiety and angst, because we're not living fully or closer to our natural state that we should be in. Totally agree.

I've been trying to take time every day, at the very least, even if I'm doing a lot of writing, because I also think that we're going to find a lot of visual problems with people who are only focusing between 8 and 12 inches all day long. So I try to get outside and just focus on things in the distance and really take in. Solar gazing, you could work on that. That would really help your vision. We can talk about that. Yeah, that's, that's no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I want to get Wim on the show at some point You know what I love about his delivery? It's a mechanical meditation

It's not a Swami kind of ethereal thing where you're like trying to grab something in space. This is mathematical meditation He's the first one to say I don't have the answer and you know what? This guy's going to be better at it than me and it's okay. It's great. I love it

Yeah, you feel amazing? Alright It's like wow We don't have to get there today. We're going to do the best we can. I'm like, oh, okay. Check that out. That's great. Yeah. I have to check them out. So if you guys could make, this will be the last question before we, I just ask where people can find everything you're all up to. But, um, Brian, if you could make one ask of the people listening or one record or one ask or recommendation what would it be um i i honestly it's like what we're you asked in the um you know sauna it's like what do you what's tickling your fancy and it's the

you know the breathing it being more aware of your breathing because quite honestly it's exactly what gabby just brought up when we were just talking about is when you're you can't breathe correctly when you're here when you're collapsed it's all about a position and that's basically more or less what kelly and i have really worked our careers at is you know it's about position and what you're what the way you move is the i understand what you're saying like i see what's going on inside don't know, you can't lie to me at this point, you know? And so I, I think it, for me, ultimately it's about breathing. And honestly, that's, I would never have arrived at the meditation thing had it not been for the breathing and it, and it being like, this is fun. Like I'm having a blast seeing what I get out of

this and how I feel after doing this and going through this stuff. And I think if people really were willing to figure, see that stuff, you know, to take the time to do that, it takes a couple of weeks and then you're like, wow, this is really something like I have not thought about regardless of what the breathing is. Right. You know, is there, where would you suggest someone start with that? I honestly think people should start with Wim Hof.

Wim Hof method, Google it. You go take it. It's a cheap course for 10 weeks. Of course, we're tweaking and playing with other things, and that's what we do. But I honestly think the guy, and we'll probably get him out here at some point. And it's doable.

Yeah, it's very doable. Very, very doable. The Iceman. Yeah yeah look him up guys he's amazing yeah you don't have to sit in the ice right yeah you know i think it starts there even through that with cold showers the fact is is it's like i i don't care if you're a crossfitter if you're a professional athlete in some other sport if you don't breathe right you're you've got a fault going on you've got something going on and you can expand upon it and you can understand much more. And it was, you know, like I said with the Eckhart Tolle thing, it's like Eckhart's

thing is the breath because the breath is now. There's nothing after. You're not thinking about the past. You're not thinking about the future. You're focused on what's happening right now. And the breath and the spirit are as one because when the baby's slapped on the butt and takes the first breath is when consciousness happens.

My mom said that exact same thing. And when the breath leaves the body. It doesn't hear me. I'm just saying, but when the breath leaves, the spirit leaves. Yes. I mean, that's the breath. That's the spirit. The breath of life.

Yeah. So, Gabby, what would your ask or recommendation be? Well, I ask that everyone, you know, I always say that we only appreciate our health when we don't have it. And I think, you know, through injuries and things I've learned to, uh, appreciate my health. But I think if, you know, sort of besides your friends and family, that the most important thing to covet and take care of is yourself. Even it's just to the best of their ability. Like if you're not walking today, go walk, you know, if you're, if you're still smoking, you know, smoke less. Like it's not about get it all done all at once, but just finding a way to make that a real priority. Um,

and then my ask would be, I always say that I'll go first. And so that means if I'm, uh, checking out at the store, I'll say hello first. If I'm coming across somebody, make eye contact, I'll smile first. That if people would experiment with that in their life a little bit. Being first. Be first. Because not all times, but most times it comes in your favor, but then the response is pretty amazing. You'll see somebody, I was at the park the other day with the kids. Oh my God, Hurricane Harbor, it's like hell. And there was these two women, a little bit older than me. We couldn't be more different, right? And I walked by them and I just looked at them and smiled. This smile came to their face so instantly, they're ready,

but you have to go first because now we're being trained in this world. Nobody's going first anymore. So for me, it's like, take care of yourself. Cause that also helps you go first sooner. If you feel pretty good and go first. I love it. Laird.

Well, they, that's not fair. They went first. They did. They did. They did steal some good material breath. And they went,

but you know, and I think part of, you know, I think, I mean, I, of course the breath is, of course, the breath is – that's our food. That's what we get when we don't eat, and that's the breath of life. And going first and cherishing the temple. I mean – and I think what Gabby said about going first leads to what I think too, And I think – and again, quoting my latest favorite book, Natural Born Heroes, but the compassion, that I think compassion is exercise compassion every day. If you could actually go out and just exercise some form of compassion, no matter what it be, I think that's some powerful stuff.

I think it would be a different world if people went in and were compassionate. I have to remind myself. And that's an ask, but that's also a do for me. I'm asking myself to do it. And again, I use that as, you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, which is, you know, ask of what you want of yourself. And then I think it's probably what, you know, it's like I like stand up. I like foiling. I like this. You know, I like the breathing. Other people will like it too, you know?

So that mine's the, I think I'm going with the compassion. It seems like going first is a good, is a good small step. Yeah. And you know what's important? I think the most important thing from, from all of us would be don't do it. It's about each person doing it their way, that discovery, not, Oh, Laird's way, or Brian's way, or Gabby's way, or Tim's way. It's about, does any of the conversations spark you to motivate you to find your way? Because that is the right way for you. Definitely. I don't believe that any of us believe in saying, this is the way. I mean, certainly breathing,

it's hard to get around it. But ultimately, when do it how do you want to do it whatever that is how do you want to eat whatever outside inside exercise but it's really more about you've got to put energy into finding your way i think physical that's if you want it because we're talking about emotional things but his is physical hers emotional compassion but and then just drink more liquids, hydration, drink more water, like, you know, air and water. It's the, this all goes to, and you just said, it's like be an experiment. And I, we've gotten so far away from that. And I think this is where science has really led us because science has really gotten far

off. And the fact that everybody in science is trying to prove themselves right. And that's not what science is. Science is not about proving yourself right. Science is about learning something new. And that is, if you aren't willing to experiment and learn it your way, that's how it's going to make sense. You're true.

Don't just try Wim's way. I'm like seven different breathing techniques in at this point, which is just radical, but that's where it's led to. And Laird's done it as well. And that's the thing, is be an experiment so that you understand what works and what doesn't, not what some paper is telling you. And also, what's really inspired me hanging out with all of you guys is that another way of looking at experimentation is playing. Like you guys have an element of play that I think many people lose as soon as

they graduate from high school or college and they, they try. Playing. Yeah. And I appreciate that. And also let your play not be so destructive because sometimes we have a tendency as we get older to, to make our play become more like Vegas, Vegas, baby yeah i'm saying more but our play becomes stop drinking now more

of a destructive process and it's like what i said about wildman and i said about every single guy and i guarantee you your trainer yeah has retained his youthful enthusiasm definitely they both play all the time exactly if the mom's climbing trees, then I guarantee you that they rotate. And it's about retention of your youthful enthusiasm. That's really about what it's about, right? It's having fun. And that spirit of that child is what will lead you to be an older child. You'll be older young, but you'll be young.

You'll be young. This is great. I want to close with just asking each of you where we can learn more about what you're up to, your work, and so on. So, Brian? There's about seven. On the internets. She sent a self-addressed stamped envelope, too. I think the easiest way to get a hold of me is through or find out more about what we're doing is is through athlete cell which athlete cell.com which is going to probably transfer that athlete cell so athlete and then

c-e-l-l like you're in a cell block um that you can get a hold of me there or you can find out with our training information stuff like that um i am most active on either twitter or instagram like i will active, get active with people on Twitter who behave. Um, what are your, uh, what's your handle? Uh, at I am unscared, which is also tattooed on his knuckles, which is tattooed on the knuckles. You can see it in the four hour body trailer, which is just another way of me saying, I'm going to deal with humility today. I'm going to deal with fear. Uh, and, and so it's just a constant reminder. So, uh, that, those are both my handles for that. Um, and I'm, I'm pretty active on there.

So cool. Okay. I am unscared on both Twitter and Instagram. Yes. Gabby. Uh, well I have a site, Gabby Reese.com, but most of my energy right now is just for people who aren't good at spelling G A B B Y R E E C E. I know who's re-spelled with a C. But most of my energy right now is in, I developed a curriculum called HI-X, and it's H-I-G-H-X. And so there's HI-X training.com. Which is no joke.

Yeah, check it out, guys. Please do. But there's a community fun aspect kind of to it. But I mean, anyway, so I'm putting a lot of my energy into that at the moment. So that's been my main focus. And how can people... I am active on Instagram and Twitter, which will be funny when you get to Laird. Laird looks less frequent.

He's smart about that. Laird, you're the smartest of us all, honey. But what are your handles? I'm at Gabby Reese. I go with G-A-B-B-Y-R-E-E-C-E on Twitter and Instagram. And if you want to know anything about Laird on his Facebook, I'll tell you what we posted for him in the last few days. He's so funny.

He's like, I don't understand. You're telling me this is more valuable than the actual doing. And I'm like, oh, secretly it's becoming that way in the world we live in. You know, I will say, and maybe this is me being delusional, I think that the doing is still the most important.

Because at least you're having fun. But the social media can add velocity to something that is already going in the right direction. you're having fun. But the social media, the social media can, can add velocity if you, to something that is already going in the right direction. But the, the doing, the doing is still, I take heart.

Like you look at say, Rick, you want to see inactive social media. Look at Rick Rubin stuff. I mean, I think it's one tweet. He doesn't even, he doesn't even talk on the phone.

Yeah. He doesn't talk to his friends. He doesn't talk on the phone either. That's true. Nevermind social media. So the doing can still, you can still sort of stand on the merit, but the social media stuff can definitely

add velocity. Or add speed. So Laird, where can people find your stuff? You can find me in the Pacific Ocean. Dot org. PacificOcean.org Laird.org

Well, you have LairdHamilton.com L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-D. L-A-R-R-Y. That's Laird's favorite thing. People go, they're like, what's your name? Laird. Larry? No, Laird. Lard? He's like, you know. That's the amazing hand in coffee. I just let him go.

I had a guy call me Larry for about three years. I didn't even say it. I didn't even tell him. Why would I tell him? Why would I ruin his, pop his bubble? No, and then, but you can see some of the other stuff like the latest, we just redid the site on golfboard.com. Yeah.

So that's golfboard. Golfboard.com is our company that we started that's just exploding right now. The golf boards are taking over the golf courses. Like stand-up is taking over the ocean. But Laird stand-up and then do we still have our joint stuff? Oh, GabbyandLaird stand up and, and then you will, you are, do we still have a, what our joint stuff? No. Oh, Laird and Gabby Gabby and Laird.com. Yeah. All our health and fitness stuff is, is all free. It's on Gabby G A B B Y and Laird L A I R D.com.

Cool. And we'll put all these links in the show notes guys. So if you missed anything or lost something in your note taking, you can check out the show notes and links and so on at four hour workweek.com forward slash podcast guys. This is awesome. Thanks so much. Really, really good today.

You should be proud. I'm going to come back. I don't want to be one of those. You survived all the time. And you're like, why did he was there once? Yeah. Laird always used to tell guys in a row was more than once.

So I, I hope to come back. Yeah. Nice work, Tim. You're the man you subjected yourself to another test I did, I think I'll need a long nap

this afternoon I'm making shirts pretty soon, XPT I survived I can't wait this is fantastic everybody check out what they're out to, say hi to them on the interwebs, be nice and play

until next time, thanks for listening