The Tim Ferriss Show - The Random Show — Ketones for Cognition, Tim’s Best Lab Results in 10+ Years, How Kevin Hit 100 Days Sober, Home Defense, Vibe Coding Unleashed, and More

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Welcome to another wide-ranging "Random Show" episode that I recorded with my close friend Kevin Rose (digg.com)! We cover Kevin's sobriety journey and marking 100 days without alcohol, my results with the ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting, GLP-1 agonists, home security, the future of Venture Capital, AI, authenticating yourself online in a world of deepfakes and anonymity, the cultural shift toward human-to-human connection, Roblox, and more. Enjoy!This episode is brought to you by:Momentous high-quality creatine to sharpen the mind: https://livemomentous.com/Tim (Code TIM for up to 35% off.)David Protein Bars with 28g of protein, 150 calories, and 0g of sugar: https://davidprotein.com/Tim (Buy 4 cartons, get the 5th free.)AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://DrinkAG1.com/Tim (1-year supply of Vitamin D plus 5 free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase.)Timestamps:[00:00:00] Start.[00:06:54] Kevin celebrates 100 days sober! Why and how?[00:15:16] Nanoblocks: Kevin's new Japanese micro-building hobby.[00:18:16] The Slow TV movement and Craig Mod's ambient recordings.[00:20:58] Craving analog experiences and wilderness trekking.[00:22:24] Writing with background movies.[00:23:42] High hopes for The Naked Gun reboot.[00:24:35] Kevin's improved communication since quitting alcohol.[00:26:28] My health interventions for cognitive protection.[00:29:00] How ketogenic diet and 16/8 intermittent fasting led to my best lab results in 10+ years.[00:33:35] Weight control regimens we don't recommend.[00:39:51] Exogenous ketones: Qitone vs. premium options.[00:50:32] How glucose tolerance tests work.[00:51:58] Microdosing GLP-1 (tirzepatide) for glucose control.[00:54:12] DORA sleep medications and neuroprotective effects.[00:56:55] Belsomra trial and cost considerations.[00:57:52] Sauna temperature optimization based on Rhonda Patrick's research.[01:00:28] There are no biological free lunches.[01:03:27] The time Kevin found a homeless person in his closet.[01:06:11] Modern home security and privacy measures.[01:19:42] Pondering how we survived childhood.[01:24:23] AI-driven venture capital landscape changes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, boys and girls. Oh, Duky Hauser, hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, deep baritone. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. This one is a random show with my good buddy, Kevin Rose. Kevin Rose partner at True Ventures, venture capitalist prior to that, incredibly successful, angel investor. Also, serial entrepreneur, founder of dig.com, DIGG.com. They are rebooting that.

Keep an eye on it. He's doing it with Alexis O'Hanian, co-founder of Reddit and other folks. So something to watch. We cover a lot in this random show. But before we get to some topics, I must say, got to do it. Right now, I am launching my first and ever card game called Coyote. Coyotegame.com. You can find it everywhere. Amazon, Target, Walmart. It's in 8,000 retail locations. I did this with the geniuses at Exploding Kittens. And it's been a labor of love. Such a fun project for the last two years. Tested it with 100 plus family. thousands of people now. And it's working. It's going nuts. So you need some fun. You need some analog. You need some social interaction. You definitely need more laughs in this crazy chaotic world of hours. So check out coyotegame.com. It has 300 million plus views on social of gameplay. And if inventory is low, stuff is selling out in a lot of places, just stick around. There is more and more and more stock flowing into all the channels,

including Amazon. So please check it out, coyotegame.com. And you can watch some videos right there. You'll see one on social that did 40 million plus by itself. So if you want to see what that recipe looks like, check it out. And topic-wise, we cover a ton in this episode. We cover Kevin hitting the 100 days with no drinks and how he did it. We talk about microdosing GLP-1s, home defense, home self-defense. We talk about the changing landscape of tech and vibe coding and what you can do if you have no engineering background, no programming experience, just what you can do now with new tools is mind-blowing and how that's going to disrupt a lot of venture capital and how startups are built. And then on my side, let me get my trusty composition

notebook. I talk about a lot of health experiments that have paid off different things that I have played with and tracked with various types of blood tests and biomarkers. And there's a lot. There's a lot. I am feeling, and certainly has reflected in my blood work, looking better than I have in more than a decade. And I was starting, I think, from a pretty good baseline. So there's a lot in this episode with Mr. Kevin Rose. So without further ado, and maybe a few words from the sponsors to make this program possible, enjoy this wide-ranging, I think pretty hilarious conversation with the fast tap dancing, Kevin Rose. Creatine isn't just for muscle, it turns out.

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At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question? Now I would have seen an appropriate time. What if I did the algorithm? I'm a cybernetic organism,

living tissue over metal antioscelogen. Three, two. Ferris Show Hello boys and girls ladies and germs Kev-Kev Random show here we are again

here we are good to see as well crazy listeners and viewers out there we have a lot to talk about this is going to be an action-packed episode features all sorts of new biological hacks

psycho-emotional hacks even includes some homeless people hiding in a closet. And that is not a metaphor. We'll get to that eventually. But let's kick off with a huge congrats, man. 100 days. Why is 100 days significant? What is the milestone? The milestone is no alcohol for 100 days. Fucking A man. Congratulations. That is huge. That is huge. Especially given how much of an alcoholic like I was. Well, let's dive into it because I have over the decades, I guess, at this point, right, seen you take a stab at sobriety many different times and the success is varied,

but nothing has approached 100 days. Nothing. Yeah. Nothing. Well, I mean, don't make it seem like it's that bad. I mean, when you were laying under those overpasses, just. Hey, listen, you've also taken a stab at non-subriety with me. many times. I know, I know. Well, I was going to say 100 days sober, even for someone who does not

consider themselves a drinker, but let's just say for someone who drinks occasionally socially, like that's a meaningful period of time. That's a quarter of the year, more than a quarter of the year. So I'm sure we've talked about this. We've tracked it a little bit over time. But what made the difference this time around? Let's reiterate that for folks. And maybe your answer's changed. I think that initially it was fear of death, which was largely driven by my doctor calling me up and saying your liver enzymes are like, you know, whatever it was, 5x, 7x, what they should be. Oh, wow. Okay. So that was number one. But just to get people a benchmark of kind of where I was at drinking wise, my journey with alcohol has been one of, it's been one of a love affair. I've definitely enjoyed the drinks. But for me, it's never been about drinking to blackout or drinking. to even like any type of illness or sickness, it's just kind of consistency, meaning that when COVID happened, I was like sober as could be for the first three weeks.

And then I'm like, hey, you know, what do we have to do? We should just drink a little bit. Like, I think everybody's going to be okay. At first I was like, got to get my immune system like, on point, you know? And then I just kind of gave that up. And there was a lot of, you know, loneliness. And I was out in the woods in the middle of nowhere in Oregon and had some young kids. I was like, oh, let's just crack a bottle of wine.

So it was a very common, very normal thing for us as a household. Yeah, for a lot of people. To just crack a bottle and just finish the whole bottle between two people, you know? And that became the norm. For me, I was always asking myself, can I take a day or two off per week? Which I think would be a good healthy thing. But then if you just add up the amount of drinks, even with taking a day or two off, if you're doing three drinks a night, that's a lot of drinks every month.

It's a lot. And just to put that also in a broader context, part of the reason I've never lived full-time in New York City and part of the reason some of my friends have moved out of New York City is not because New York City is a bad place, but at least in the social circles by and large that I know, finishing a bottle of wine between two people, let's call that two and a half drinks apiece, would be a light night in New York City. And to do that minimum three nights, but three, four, five, six nights per week. In a lot of the night. of the groups I know at least that is just par for the course right yeah yeah the issue is that when

you get into your 40s and you have all that cumulative damage of decades you realize like well things start to shut down like your liver so I think that's yeah that was the first sign but only have one liver so you want to take care of that baby yeah the nice thing obviously about the liver is that if until you're at that point of no return it's pretty damn good at healing itself and my liver enzymes snap back to normal ranges within, you know, four weeks, which is great to see. But when I think about when have I truly given it a break? When have I truly taken more? And I've taken a month off here or there. You know, there's like those dry January. And I would have a dampish January where like you have like a drink or two, but still kind of dry January. And so that was the norm. And then

I just said, if I can't go three months, and actually my therapist told me this, she said, you know, Kevin, it's kind of a golf clap at one month. Three months is where the magic happens in terms of how you feel, your energy, your mood, weight loss, glucose control, all of the things that you've said you want to have, you know, but can you do it? And it is really challenging to go three months for someone like myself that it is a crutch around social situations. it is a crutch around, you know, if I'm being honest, like when you have a partner where you're dealing with a couple little kids and it can be challenging with the kiddos and with the logistics of a household and all of a sudden you're just like, ah, I had a hard

long day at work and I had a long day at home and I have some good wine sitting right there. It's very easy to tap into that, you know? Yeah. What would you say made the difference this time around? You had the health scare or at least the doctor saying like, hey, hot shot. It was surrounding myself with people that had done this before. How did you find them? Well, I think we're at the age that I'm sure you probably can check this box as well,

where I know right now three people that have successfully done 12-step programs. Sure. Easily three. We have a couple of friends in common that are now sober and have done these programs. And yeah, that's exactly it. And you just, you reach out to them and say, hey, what did you do? What about these 12 steps has worked for you? I was always kind of put off by the religious aspect of some of the 12-step stuff.

It just seemed to me like a little, I don't know, I didn't really think I had it that bad. But I knew that there were people that, and I had seen this, that stuck to it with the help and support of these people. And they gather around you and really give you kind of a toolkit to lean into. And for me, that has been really understanding that it's not about the three months. it's just about winning today. And so if you can reframe it as like, just not today, yeah, I can have a drink tomorrow, but just not today. Not today, Satan.

Not today, Satan. Yeah, exactly. And it sounds so silly. No, it doesn't. Little tiny things. Eternity, well, I guess we're not going to live for all eternity unless you believe some people on the internet. But until you die is a long time, or at least you hope it's a long time, right?

But like today or tomorrow, today, it's very digestible. Yeah, 100%. And so that was a big thing. And having those friends, and the first thing they did being, you know, some of them are, one still in AA and two or XAA, is that what we do here is we can just give you our numbers and you call anytime you're having a craving or you think you're getting close to not pulling this off because we want to see you succeed. And I think that's a powerful thing to be able to have a hotline to someone that is like,

I've been here. It sucks. Yes, yes, you can get to two weeks. But do you want to white knuckle this the entire way by yourself? or do you want someone that's going to go have a tea with you and sit with you for an evening on a day that's particularly hard, you know? And so I think after you get to kind of six, well, I'm just speaking for myself, but when I got to six or ish weeks,

the kind of headachey kind of desire of it all faded away a little bit. And then I found a bunch of shit that I really enjoyed doing that was not drinking. And I think that's the other big thing you have to do is you have to really figure out what is going to fill that space. Smoking, copious, rents, a weed. Yeah, I mean, I started cocaine and I just did a bunch of weed, but other than that, no, I don't, I wish I liked weed. I didn't like weed for some reason. I think Sigmund Freud for a while was viewing cocaine as the solution to heroin. I'm not making that up. It's like a very famous psychoanalyst. Anyway, but that's not that. You didn't go for snow blindness. No, but I did go for this. Look at this.

Oh, okay. Now, this looks like a Japanese. is Lego-ish. Those are nanoblocks? Yes. So this is called nanoblocks, and it's one of the things I wanted to talk about today. All right. So nanoblocks are from Japan, and I did a little research, and essentially, they were able to find a way around a lot of the Lego patents. And they've created, look at how small this block is. Yeah, you're holding it up. If you listen to audio. Yeah, it's about the size of a baby aspirin. I mean, it's tiny. Right. Exactly. And so they literally sell nanoblock branded tweezers to put these things together. That's the most Japanese thing I can imagine at this moment.

Exactly. And so the instructions are horrific, which actually makes it more fun. Look at this. Look at this bad boy. Oh, wow. Okay. So he's holding up a cherry blossom tree. It's actually awesome.

It's kind of mesmerizing in that lo-fi kind of way. Right. And it probably has, I'm just going to guess here one. 857 pieces. No, this was, this was 2,500, I think, pieces. Oh, my God. Yeah. So this will take you a good, solid week.

It'll keep your hands. Idle hands of the devil's workshop, but not if you have nanoblocks. Yeah, exactly. So I will say that little hobbies like this, especially ones that you can do with your kids. Yeah, so this one back here is also a lot. Oh, that's, I guess, I'm blanking on the exact name. The Great Wave, Hokosai. Almost everyone will have seen this in some form or fashion.

That's cool. That's very cool. Yeah, so that actually is legit Lego. This is not Nanoblocks, but this one is really cool. We talked about that one once before, but I think these things are great to have. These little hobbies are great to have. And nanoblocks, I will say, if you go on Amazon, they sell them on there, they have horrible reviews. And the reason why the reviews are so bad is because the instructions,

like I said, are horrific. But once you understand the way that the Japanese want you to do it, there is a method to their madness, and they all work the same way. So it takes you like an hour and a half to be like, why are they telling me to put it like, what does that arrow mean? And then you understand the aerosystems,

because there's a lot of Japanese, a little bit of sprinkled English throughout the instructions. Probably doesn't help very much. Right, but look at this kit here. Oh, right. So they have these cute little kids. Cup of noodle. basically that little ramen yeah 140 pieces ages 12 plus yeah so this ramen is going to be about

the size of like yeah like a shot glass exactly but it's super tiny and it'll take you like eight hours to put that together but they're so fun they're so fun and they have a massive Godzilla that's cool so two things number one if a video on youtube doesn't exist already you should just create a video which is like let me explain how to use these fucking things right that would be a great service to humanity. You know, what's funny is I'm actually doing that. I'm going to do a live, there's this whole movement right now where people go out, actually Craig Mod is quite good at this, where he'll go out, you had him on your podcast, fantastic, all things Japan, Craig Bond's the best. He has gone out and he's done these ambient recordings where he just goes to these like rural

parts of Japan. Yeah. And he just sets up his mic and he just, you'd listen to the street traffic, you listen to the people doing various tasks. And there's something to be said about, they call this slow TV at this movement. Like there's this whole thing where people watch people groom and sheer sheep using this. No, but I saw this guy who has a podcast that is sort of, I guess, interviewing thought leaders. And he didn't disclose this in the tweet, but the tweet was like, there is an account of a Norwegian truck driver, this is on YouTube, just driving through different parts of the

countryside in Norway, and it has like five million subscribers or something. And he said, meanwhile, there are other podcasts. that do this on YouTube, and they only have 9,000 subscribers link. He didn't disclose that it was actually his account. But yeah, the slow, I suppose, what's the right word, sort of living vicariously as a fly on the wall with things that seem very day-to-day. Like Craig Mod has a super relaxing.

It's hard for me to explain exactly what it is. Maybe it's just a mild antidote to digital loneliness. Maybe that's part of it. but he went to a Japanese jazz listening bar or a jazz listening cafe where it's full of vinyl, people sit there in true Japanese fashion, like practically dead silent, just listening to the owner who's effective of the DJ

put on different vinyl. And he got all the- I've been to this bar. Okay, all the ambient sounds. And Craig Mod, what a gem. Definitely look him up. Yes, the name is M-O-D. as you heard.

Yeah, and I will say that I've talked to Craig about, I asked him and said, hey, how do you get this? Why does it sound so amazing? Like, what's your secret here? And he uses these binaural microphones. Essentially, they go into his ears. And so he plugs them into his ears and then into a solid state recording device. And so you're listening as though you're sitting in his ears because there's a mic on each side.

And so that's the left and right audio channels. And it creates this illusion of like a depth of all. audio as you're listening, which is just brilliant. Yeah. And it's so much fun. There is a massive movement, and I get it, Tim. Like, we are so addicted to our devices that I don't know, maybe it's because I'm getting in my late 40s, but I desperately crave more analog in my life.

Yeah, more analog. More so than I ever have. For sure. Do you find that to be the case with yourself? Oh, 100%. I mean, next week, I'm going on this wilderness trek in Montana. and Idaho. They're just going to be off-grid and just with a couple of close friends. And sure, you could bring, say, a solar charger and try to use your phone, but I'm just going to

leave mine behind. I don't need it. What am I going to do? You just bring in your printed playboys. You're going to all analog. I'm bringing the stash from the late 80s. I kept those with my D&D from childhood when I packed them out. And analog more and more analog. We are just evolved to thrive and feel at ease in analog environments, which isn't to say all digital is bad, but it's certainly past a point. The self-soothing becomes a poison. And it's, I don't think we need to convince any of one of that. You see it everywhere. So it makes sense that even in a digital sphere, this type of slow viewing, I was going to say cat on the wall, not I'm sure

what that would be. Maybe it's, it sounds like a Japanese t-shirt, but fly on the wall, experience, it allows people to put something in the background. I used to do this when I was writing my books. So four hour work week, I don't even know if you know this. So four hour work week, four our body, four our chef. I would do most of my writing late at night. And a lot of authors I know who are productive, not saying I'm one of the most productive at all, but either write very early when everyone's asleep or they write very late when everyone is asleep. The upside is you can focus. The downside is it can feel very, very isolating. So I would sit in my TV room and I would put on music, but I would always put on movies

to watch. So I had people around on the screen. And these were movies that I would just watch on repeat. So I've seen for the first set of movies for the four-hour work week, it was Sean of the Dead and the first Jason Bourne. And then for the four-hard body, it was Snatch. And It was the first movie I chose that popped up on Amazon Prime, which is Babe, masterpiece of a movie. So I watched Snatch and Babe like 5,000 times each. It's, I mean, absolutely high hundreds each. But it's just to have something in the background that is comforting while I'm isolated and I'm listening to music and writing. So it makes sense to me.

You know, The Naked Gun is coming back. Yes, I do. I sell the reviews and I'm like, God, I hope it's true because the Naked Gun was so good. Yes. Liam Neeson is actually a fantastic actor, despite the fact that he's made some version of taken like 789 times. But the guy has chops. But in the same way, you know, Johnny Depp has chops. But when they did a remake of Willie Walker and the Chocolate Factory, I was like, oh, don't do it. Gene Wilder's going to be really hard to top. That's going to be really tough. So I'm optimistic in a way, I suppose, with movies that I haven't been in a long time. So I'm decided to check out the naked gun. I'm just curious to see if they're going to keep up with the, because the naked gun you could not make today. Well, maybe you could again now. As it was. I mean, yeah, you'd have to be some script doctoring for sure. Before we get to the naked gun, I just want to. Yes. I want to make an observation, which is,

you know, you and I text a lot and we're in, you know, one ridiculous small friend group thread. and since you cut alcohol out, the tone of your communication is completely different in the sense that you basically don't complain anymore, effectively gone as far as complaining, but I think that's just related to the ups and downs that are maybe more noticeable when you're drinking and all the effects on metabolism and insulin sensitivity and so on. but it's like your general tone and existence and demeanor is so much more stable in its positivity since you stop drinking. So I just wanted to mention that because it's very noticeable.

That's interesting. Not that you were like bitching and moaning all the time before, but the change is very noticeable. Yeah, because I feel like your bitching has gone up. Yeah, you know. You get older. Something's not right here. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I appreciate you saying that. I feel as though, well, I will say you never know how much you should share on podcasts and whatnot, but I'm going to go out here. I know my wife's going to listen to this, but I might as well say anyway, you argue less when you're both not drinking. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you and I are always, you know, we've been known to text each other various grievances with our partners and people we've been seeing. Yeah, you need to do it. Yeah, you need to do it.

You need an outlet. You need an outlet. It's like, you need somebody to vent too. Yeah. But I would say holistically, so if you even took the partner piece out of it, just in general, you're much more upbeat. And it's noticeable. And, you know, I want to mention something that I'm pretty sure we haven't.

I didn't want to repeat myself. So I used AI to summarize our last few random shows. And a few things that I've done, I'm pretty sure. since our last conversation were interventions for health also. And the primary drivers behind that were not any type of medical emergency, but I'm now caring for two family members who have rapidly deteriorating cognitive health. And this is very common in my family, lots of Parkinson's, lots of Alzheimer's in particular. And what I've noticed is that some of these people who seem hardest hit by Alzheimer's are, say, APOE33. They shouldn't have a high predisposition to

Alzheimer's, and I'm APOE3-4, so I'm like, fuck, if I'm, as we understand it now, something like 2.5 times more likely than the kind of population average to be predisposed to Alzheimer's, this is something I want to look at very, very closely, because there are some interventions out there and you and I have invested in hopefully some new interventions to come in the forecoming years, but that's going to take some time. By the time the symptoms are really obvious, it's very, very hard to treat something like Alzheimer's, which doesn't mean that the interventions don't work. It just means they might not work at that stage. So I'm really trying to, and I've already been taking a lot of mental health and cognitive kind of neuronal

health thing seriously. So I started wondering, and this is just a hypothesis, but if it's possible that I have inherited some mitochondrial dysfunction and looked at ways to improve mitochondrial health, which would include increased Zone 2 training, for instance, right? I hate Zone 2, but yeah, it's so boring. It's annoying. It's like flossing. It's just like worst.

It's not fun, but it's mild enough that you can throw on something on Netflix or listen to a podcast. So Zone 2, it's boring, but you've got to do it. And I've been finding more interesting ways to do that. But in addition to that, looking at some old friends that I thought were worth dusting off and revisiting, like ketosis and the ketogenic diet. So I'll give you the punchline and then I'll back up. So did my blood draw and also an oral glucose tolerance test, which we should really talk about, because that's just such an important tool in the toolkit to see.

how sensitive you are with respect to insulin sensitivity or insensitive, glucose disposal, etc. Getting fasting glucose isn't enough. You can get false good news if that's timed luckily or well. Right. So I've had my best lab results, and I get three or four tests a year, probably my best lab results in the last decade most recently. And I would attribute that to a few things.

I used ketogenic diet very straightforward. You have to figure out a few meals that work for you. For me, it was a big salad with like rib I cut on top with some cheese. You have to figure out something that doesn't make you feel like a human cheese cloth every day because you really want to keep your protein moderate. You can't have too much protein on the ketogenic diet. If you want to sustain high levels of high millimolar concentration of ketones and I test all this with a finger prick, I shifted naturally like ketosis first to initiate some adaptations. And for everything I read, it takes about, I knew I didn't want to do it super long term. It's just too boring and too disgusting.

And plus, I really need to watch my lipid profile. Yeah, that's my problem. But based on the reading that I was doing, it seemed like three to four weeks of serious ketosis was enough to initiate some durable changes. And then maybe if you do that, at least, and this is speculation, but once every six months, once every year, that you can keep the metabolic machinery. where you want it. And so I did four weeks and I was like enough, but I started leaning into intermittent fasting towards the end of that and experimenting with 16-8. So what that means is 16 hours

of fasting, eight hours of eating. Eight hours could be noon to 8 o'clock, could be 2 p.m. to 10, and then continued with the ketogenic diet, but just two meals a day, typically like 1 at 2 o'clock and then 1 at, say, you know, 8 or 9. And then shifted back. to a non-ketogenic diet. And this is going somewhere, folks, because the ketogenic diet may have nothing to do with it, but the combination of doing three to four weeks of ketosis and then doing intermittent fasting for the last two months. But at the time of my blood test, it was only about four weeks in. My insulin sensitivity, which my family, just as a team, sucks at, right? Like, genetically, I am not predisposed to having great glucose disposal or insulin sensitivity.

and that's a huge driver for accelerated neurodegenerative disease. If you have high blood pressure, if you have chronically elevated glucose or insulin and or insulin, all of these things drive degeneration cognitively. And people can learn all sorts of stuff about 16-8 intermittent fasting from Rhonda Patrick and she's had a number of scientists on her podcast. There's also a guy I recommend with some reservations. but Martin Burkin, who really popularized to his credit 168, and worked with a lot of clients and his audience. So he had very interesting data, but his editorial tone is not for everybody.

He will not die from confidence deficiency. I'll put it that way. Nonetheless, his recommendations around intermittent fasting plus resistance training are very compelling. So I would suggest people to check that out. a byproduct of this, and this was very unexpected, my mood is so elevated and stable now, it's kind of hard for me to believe that I didn't figure this out sooner. And I think part of that was as a competitive athlete, especially growing up when we grew up, it was like, okay, small meals every like four hours, right? Something like that was the dogma.

And I think that was a just enough. smoke screen that I was able to cover up insulin and sensitivity. Because if I didn't eat frequently, I would start to crash and then get grumpy and then I would boost it back up with granted a healthy meal, but I was still eating very, very consistently. And in doing this, my mood on average has just been so much higher, so much more stable for, I would say, the last eight weeks. I don't have any intention of changing. That's amazing. I think I could do the intermittent fasting indefinitely. And on top of that, I'll say, one of my concerns, and part of the reason I didn't try this sooner, is that if you don't incorporate resistance training, and if you don't

get enough protein, I was just going to ask you that. You can lose a lot of muscle mass. Right. And I remember doing Dexa scans way back in the day. I started doing Dexa before the four-hour body in 2010. And the owners of these decks of facilities would tell me the vast majority of people who try intermittent fasting think they're losing fat but they're losing muscle mass and their body composition goes upside down effectively and I judged it harshly and I judged it prematurely so in animal models and also certainly if you look at what Martin and some of his clients have done that need not be the case and you're not necessarily going to pack on tons of muscle but you can lose fat while preserving or moderately gaining muscle.

So I'm still getting stronger in my workouts. It's interesting how fat loss works, too. And Martin's observed this. A lot of people have observed this, but it's not caloric deficit and you lose a predictable amount every week. Sure. If you were a closed system,

blah, blah, blah, law of thermodynamics. Yeah, it should just be pure math. But what seems to happen, at least with me, really seeing anything, not really seeing anything, not really seeing anything. And then all of a sudden, in week four or five, you just seem to drop a lot of body fat. I don't have a great explanation for that, but I'm sure there is a good explanation. It's that MCT oil that you're taken with the, you're running to the bathroom. Yeah, just letting everything pass through.

But what I will say is that I have used just about every diet imaginable. And I would say one criticism I would have of some of what Martin recommends is he advises people to consume like somewhere along the lines if they can tolerate it like 400 to 800 milligrams of caffeine a day to aid in fat loss. And yes, that will aid in fat loss. Yeah, and lack of sleep. Yeah, I don't want the sleep architecture disruption. And also, it's like you can get away with a lot if you're taking stimulants. And this is said as someone who for a long time, I was first introduced to pre-workout stimulants by an older student when I was wrestling in high school. Let me guess.

Inno Explode. It was so Enno Explode, Little Reds. Yeah. NO Explode is like a later iteration, but at that point, this guy was giving me the cobbled together, you can't really do this anymore, and I don't recommend it. Finfin and shit? No, not fan fan, effedrine caffeine, aspirin, the ECA stack. And that will rip body fat off of your body, but you are not getting a biological

free lunch. You are really hammering yourself and your system. Did you ever hit Broncade? Broncade is probably a Fedron. Yeah, I know, but did you ever hit it when you were younger? Actually, an inhaler? Or what do you mean? Yeah, because that's what people would do. Like, the bodybuilders would hit bronchade and then they would put on sweatshirts and go like on the treadmill and just sweat their faces off. No, I didn't do that. Six-pack abs. No. You would buy primatine mist tablets and don't do this, folks. It's not good for you. Also, if you you try to buy private chemist tablets, now you have to show your driver's license because I believe you can, there are labs or probably trailers is more accurate description. People will use that

as a precursor to produce methamphetamine, is my understanding, which is why it's very tightly controlled. So suffice to say, don't do that. And I've been very wary of any regimen that requires a lot of stimulants, is I guess what I'm trying to say. And the only time that I have reliable if you look at every single male in my family, it's kind of comical. Like, you can spot them from a mile away. And like abdominal fat, I know this isn't unique to my family, but it's like nobody in the history of my family on either side has ever had six-pack abs, except for me when I was taking disgusting quantities of stimulants.

But this time around doing the resistance training plus intermittent fasting, and yes, some of it could be explained by reduced caloric intake, but I think there's more to it. the abdominal fat's finally coming off. And this is at 48, you know, I'm no spring chicken. So I've been very impressed that I'm able to do that. Some of the benefits of a ketogenic diet have people said joint pain goes away. They get some of these other things. So another reason in addition to mitochondrial health that I want to ketosis is because of the potent anti-inflammatory effects

and some of the chronic back pain that long-term listeners will be sick of hearing about. So that was another reason why I did the ketosis. I felt the anti-inflammatory effects of that much more so than just the intermittent fasting with a quote-unquote regular diet that's higher in carbohydrates. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Many of you know how deeply I love Japan and its culture of unwavering dedication to craft, refinement, commitment to continuous improvement. But why do I bring this all up? Well, the same focus on improving one thing over the span of years is found in today's sponsor, AG1. They are now

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So start your journey with AG1's next gen and experience the difference firsthand. Simply go to drinkag1.com slash tim. That's drinkag1.com slash Tim. I have also been adding in with my, let's just call it, normal diet, intermittent fasting, exogenous ketones. So supplemental ketones in the morning. Because I also, I want to give credit where credit is due, Rhonda Patrick and I've had a lot of texts back and forth. Ronda Patrick, for people who don't know, I think, God, did you, maybe you introduced me to her age. She was like podcast number 12 for me out of 800 and something. which I didn't realize. It was so early. She's a PhD. She is a scientist and researcher. She has published in very credible journals. And it's just a great resource for separating fact from fiction in so many different domains. And her dad, I believe it was, was diagnosed with Parkinson's. And she's been public about this. And so we were trading notes on all different things. And we were talking about ketosis. And if you're in ketosis, what about intermittent fasting? If you have a tablespoon of heavy cream. And

in your coffee in the beginning? Are you sacrificing autophagy? You know, this kind of cellular self-eating slash cleanup. And she sent me a case study of an Alzheimer's patient pretty progressed Alzheimer's, like very impaired function, who was given a ketone monoester. So this is a liquid that you're basically just a shot two or three times a day. And the, I recognize this is an N of one. So take it with a huge grain of salt, but still a huge regain in function. I mean, astonishing recovery of function and mood and personality. So I figured, well, let me experiment with this because I might want to suggest it to people in my family, but I'm not going to do that until I understand exactly what I'm dealing

with from a first person perspective. And adding in, for instance, one option, a mutual friend of ours, I'm not going to dox him, but recommended ketone, Q-I-T-O-N-E, and it's a powder that you can add into your coffee and mix up as a creamer, which is what I do. Wait, can me ask you one question,

Tim, before you go on with this one, you and I were on a call, not a public call, but a phone call. And you mentioned that you found the best, basically, ketones on the market that you believed in time.

And this was recently. So are these the ones? These are not those ones in part because this is going to make you sound like a dick. I will share that one soon. They're very expensive. I'll tell you offline the reason, and people are going to hate me for saying this, but it's like, I want this stuff for my family and this producer has very, very limited inventory.

So I want to make sure that I can get this stuff. And furthermore, I think it's really premature to start just like dosing your elderly parents or aunts and uncles with this. I still have some open questions about concerns and long-term health, et cetera. So I want to do some more digging. This is not that one. Okay, is this one palatable? This one is palatable. Because you should tell people with like the hardcore stuff is no joke, right?

Like it's almost cruel to be giving it to someone with dementia and that you're asking them to chug gasoline. Yeah, I thought it was going to be worse than it is. But I also have a stomach of iron and have choked down so much disgusting shit over my life that I think, I mean, I was having dating a lovely girl right now. And I made some salad and she tried to eat it. And she's like, this is inedible. This is so disgusting.

Why did you put so much vinegar on it? And I did put way too much vinegar on it. And like, she almost puked at the table. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm just shoving it down my maw. So I don't know if I'm the best reference for palatable. But they've improved a lot. They used to taste like jet fuel based on reports.

And I wasn't even willing to do it because literally, I think he's been public about this. Peter Atea, famous doc, trained at Hopkins, Stanford, et cetera. A lot of people will know him. He told me about the first time he tried the OG ketone mono esters, and he took a shot, and he basically had to run to the sink and, like, white knuckle the sides of the sink as he's dry heaving for like 10 minutes. And I was like, no thanks, no thanks. But this ketone, the Q-I-T-O-N-E, it is very palatable.

You just mix it in with your coffee. what I will say to folks is just public service announcement, your GI distress may vary. So you might be fine. You might not be fine. Just chase it with an emodium. You'll be fine. Yeah. And of particular danger is caffeine, ketones, and creatine, which is also great to take.

Well, NACT. But yeah, if you take any two of those four, you're in the danger zone. If you take three or four out of the four, there's coin toss disaster pants. just stay close to the bathroom. You do get used to it. But I just used this ketone this morning, for instance, because the stuff at some point that I hope to share when they get their production ramped up, number one, it does taste pretty awful. It's pretty god awful. And then second, it's very expensive. I mean, it's like $20 to $30 a dose. Wow. It's very, very expensive. So if you're going to be giving someone this particular exogenous ketone two or three times

a day on an ongoing basis, we have to figure out a more economical solution because outside of the 1% of 1% no one's going to be able to afford that. So, Tim, for people that are listening and they're hearing you talk about two different ketones here, it begs the question. If you are pricking yourself, doing a blood work afterwards, and finding out what your ketone levels are or peeing on a strip or however you're doing it. Obviously, you can tell that these things work and I've done it myself because you take them and then you literally go do the test and you know, and a half hour later for five minutes later, you see that your ketone bodies are elevated

and you're like, okay, it's in my system. It's working. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but I can feel it. It's like a light switch. Yeah, you can absolutely feel it. Cognitively, your brain, also cardiac tissue loves ketones. Yes, brain juice. It's just like it's brain juice and finish what you're saying and then I'll add something. My question for you is, why would you even consider the more expensive $20 to $30 when there are so many other readily available, you know, call it in the $5 to $7 kind of range ketones that are out there on market? Like, what are the advantages of that $30 model? It's hard for me not to docks the supplier by giving too much detail. But what I will say is this, subjectively, and I've checked with a few people who have tested it, nothing feels like these ketones.

Really? Nothing. Not even close. It's the Bugatti of exogenous ketones. You flip on the switch. And for instance, I'm doing a lot of media interviews and stuff right now because this coyote game and we could talk about that at some point. I mean, that's very analog, as analog as it gets. I'm doing a lot of media. And historically, what would I have done? Because I want to be sharp, even in the afternoon, I would have tea or coffee. But then that fucks up your sleep so badly. And it turns into this vicious cycle. So now I just take the exogenous ketones in the afternoons. And if anything, it's going to help you sleep, which is something you observe with the ketogenic diet that's really wild, is that you're, at least personally, and this is true for a lot of people, your sleep requirements go down. And when you wake up, I'm not a morning person historically. It doesn't take me an hour to get up to speed. When I'm in ketosis, I wake up and I am ready to go, nine or ten out of ten. So I would say for a lot of folks, though, at least based on the reviews and reports that I've read, the diester, this ketone,

Q-I-T-O-N-E, it's more than enough to get a taste test for whether or not you're going to get any response. It's hard for me to imagine anyone not getting a response because we're evolved to produce and consume ketones. And I'll just say also that I have found it very helpful to think of Alzheimer's, and this is simplifying things, and I'm not the first person to say this, as type 3 diabetes, brain diabetes. And that is part of the reason why this is so interesting to me. Not only is a possible treatment or something that could reduce symptoms,

maybe restore function, but also for preventative purposes. If I can do, as I did for a long time, I did for many years, I did a seven-day water-only fast per year, and then I would do a three-day water-only fast once a quarter. I still think that's a good idea. But for whatever reason in the last few years, I became less tolerant of that. I would do a 70-fast, and I would get really dizzy if I stood up. I would have memory problems. And I think it was increasing insulin insensitivity in part that caused that.

and now that I'm doing this 16-8 intermittent fasting and I'll occasionally just switch it up and ketosis takes a little while to get into. So there's a bit of an on-ramp. But now that I'm doing this and also feeding my system with exogenous ketones, my working hypothesis is that I'm keeping that ketone machinery busy so that it doesn't atrophy. And my expectation is, and I'm going to test this again soon is the next time I do three days pretty easy for me at this point. But a seven day, let's just say, water only fast. By the way, you don't need to lose much, if any, muscle mass doing that either. But that's a whole separate conversation. It's kind of counterintuitive. I will be able to test this hypothesis. Did all this stuff help? Does doing, I think doing 168 by itself

probably helps you with an extended fast. So we'll see. We'll see. But my feeling is that I'm late to the party in a sense, but that intermittent fasting is very interesting and it's compelling from a compliance perspective because, for instance, well, I just think of my parents or anybody. It's like, I can get so many people to change their behavior on the planet and my parents will not listen to a thing I say. So it's very hard to get people to change what they eat. I think it's easier to change when people eat. and just from the perspective of trying to grease the wheels for behavioral change and people who are resistant, who have failed a lot before, this is very interesting.

Yeah. People really underestimate what snacking does to keep their glucose levels elevated. Because when you have that full eight hours plus of downtime, of no eating, and you really give your body a chance to, like, for me, I'm just like you, where I did a glucose tolerance test. And I stayed elevated for way too long. Yeah. So for people that don't know, when you go to a fancy doc like Peter Tia or some of these other concierge doctors, and you can ask your normal GP to do this. And some of them will if you have a cool one and they're on top of it. But they'll essentially sit down with you and they will give you a straight glucose drink. So it's,

think of like Gatorade syrup. Like if it were just pure syrup, right? And you drink that. And then they're going to, one, draw your blood at baseline, and then they'll pick intervals. I can't remember what it is. Tim, do you know at the top of your head? Yeah, every 30 minutes for two hours. Right. And then they're testing for insulin's response and also worries your glucose over time. And ideally, you want to see a spike up, not too high, and then a rapid kind of return to a normal baseline, right? And mine just stays elevated for like 5x too long. You know, it just hovers around that, like, 135, forever.

And it just, you know, so that could be my muscles aren't sensitized. They're not taking up enough glucose. There's, I have metabolic dysfunction. It could be a handful of different things. And so I'm actually taking a different approach than you in that I also have been talking to Ronda a lot. Phone a friend. Poor Ronda. Yeah, exactly.

Poor Ronda. So she told me not too long ago, maybe this was like six months ago. She was like, there are people and this is not an endorsement of this, but there are people that are micro-dosing GLP-1s now. Yeah, so I want to hear more about this. Yeah, so I started microdosing basically about two months ago, terseptitide. Zep-bound.

Right, it goes by Zep-bound or on the glucose side, Manjuro for people to have glucose and diabetes issues. So there's two brands for it. Zep-bound is if you want the fat loss. It's the same drug. So essentially, the lowest dose you can get that in is two and a half milligrams, but they sell it in vials now. So if you grab yourself an insulin syringe,

you can give yourself a little under, what is it, the insulin syringes, a little under one unit, basically. IU, yeah, international unit. Yeah, so a little under one unit of that compound. And I notice immediately, not immediately, but over the course of a week, because that's how long you microdose it for,

I have lower just standard resting glucose, and then also my spikes don't get near as high. I probably trim 30% off the spikes, and my return to baseline is so much better. And so I'm kind of repairing that through a little bit of a hack. And so there's a bunch of people now that are starting to think of this as more of a longevity drug. And we've known this that people that take these drugs, they have fewer cardiovascular events. So there are other benefits of GLP ones other than just kind of look good, right?

So obviously, I'm not doing it for the weight loss. I need more for weight loss. But, you know, if I can see one ab, I'm not going to be pissed. I'll take a two-pack at this point. Yeah, exactly. But try the 16-8, man. It's been wild to watch. Well, I mean, you're talking to the guy that created zero,

the intermittent fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've definitely done my fair share of 16-8. It's just like it takes some time, just like the long-term durable changes, and I don't mean indefinite changes, but with the ketogenic diet, like it really took a few weeks,

and then there was a step function in terms of change. A few more things about GLP-1 agonists, So I have some of my relatives with the neurodegenerative disease on tersetide, low-dose terseptitide. And by the way, folks, talk to your doctors. We are fucking not doctors. We're clowns on the internet. So just like, this is pro-science at best.

At best. Yeah. Pro-science B-b-b-binus. So they're on tersetide. That's with supervision of very competent doctors for the metabolic dysfunction, primarily. So glucose control, et cetera. some of these, and I'm not sure which in particular have been studied,

but some of these GLP ones appear to have neuroprotective effects also. So that is very interesting to me. There's actually, I think they're called Dora's as sleep medication also appear to have some neuroprotective effects primarily, or at least relevant to me, related to Alzheimer's. What was the name of the one? I can't remember the name of it. The sleep medication. It's a class.

so let me get this right there's a name for that i just got a prescription to one of these and i had to pay out of pocket for it because i didn't qualify obviously for insurance and it was insane well let me just finish my thought for a second here so yeah yeah yeah so i want to hear about this so i said nora or dora i think i'm thinking of uh mixing up my words here but i'm pretty sure and do your homework folks that dora is dual or and receptor antagonists. And I've been thinking, because you and I probably still use occasional or continuous tracidone for help with sleep. I don't use trisone anymore. You don't? Okay. I've been thinking of replacing that with Adora, obviously with medical supervision, because now that I'm an

adult and I can see what's going on, because as a kid, I had a grandmother who kind of disintegrated under the weight of Alzheimer's, but I was too young to really know what was going on. Now that I'm an adult, and I can see the personality changes, the anxiety, the depression, everything that comes with it, I am looking for a full stack of capped downside, ideally well-studied, low-risk, but potential upside interventions. So you tried some of these? What happened? Yeah, I have one. I'm trying to find the name of it. I'll have to go into my pharmacy and look. You know, to your pharmacy. Well, I have an online pharmacy. No, but it's legit. It's Amazon pharmacy. I'll just say it. Amazon pharmacy.

You just had like a dedicated, next to your red room, you have a dedicated pharmacy. You're the one with the bedroom, bitch. Well, you know, that's true. That's true. Cut that out. Tomato tomato. Yeah, exactly. Whatever floats your boat. So I tried Belsamra. No idea. Sounds like a Japanimation character. Yeah, exactly. So Belsomra is the one that I tried. And it was, I want to say,

about $600 off prescription, which was just insane. Yeah, that's pricey. But, you know, I just wanted to see what it would do. Yeah, it was $600. So so far, I only tried it one time. And it was great, but I don't know. I've also been sleeping a lot better now that I have not quit alcohol, you know? And so I would say that I need to try it again.

So it's on my to-do list. It's sitting in the cabinet. I'll give you something next time you come, once you get your doctor. to say that you're allowed to have. Yeah, yeah, we're great. Fucking black market, bro trades. What could go wrong? Give me some of your ketones.

Your quality ketones. Yeah, exactly, exactly. My off the back of a truck, Bugatti ketones. All right, so I want to give, not to make this like the Ronda show, but I want to give her two more nods. Two other changes I've made. 10 grams of creatine. No, I've been doing that for a long, long time.

But I have up to the quantity, yeah. And actually, if I'm feeling deprived of sleep, like my HRV, my heart rate variability was really low this morning. So I took 20 grams today to try to compensate for some of the effects of sleep deprivation. But the most important, maybe most important one is that I reduce the temperature of my sauna based on some conversations with Rana. So I'm no longer doing 194 plus throwing lots of water on the rocks, which is what I've been doing for many, many years. Yeah, it's high. but I reduced it to like 175, 180. Yeah.

And that's based on some literature and studies that Ronda cited out of Finland. Now, I don't know how well designed these are. I haven't read them myself, but I'm like, you know what? It kind of makes sense to me. I mean, I feel like I am cooking a steak and my head happens to be the steak at 194 plus, whereas at 180, it's less microwave in my head and more of a. a full-body thermic effect because too hot could be actually something that accelerates dementia. So it's like, oh, good Lord, okay.

Well, she found a study that too hot is not good for you. Like there actually was a study that showed you get to the inverse at too hot. And that 174-ish, 5-ish is kind of the sweet spot for 20 minutes. Are you wearing a felt hat? I'm not wearing a felt hat. I probably should because I don't really. Yeah, because I'll get hot enough wearing the, I guess it's a wool hat. Yeah, the pros, that's what I mean.

Yeah, if you go to like Coney Island or some of these Russian bath houses with people with lots of tattoos you shouldn't fuck around with, then not only will they have the hat, have you ever seen them wear in the oven mitts? The wool mitts. Yeah, they're these like, they look like oven mitts. There are these wool mittens that the super hardcore will wear. Oh, damn, I got to get that. Sit in there forever. And people might think, wait, doesn't it will keep you warm? It's like, well, actually wool can do both.

it's an insulator so it can keep the cold out, but it can also keep the hot out from what it's covering. So that's a good point. I should start wearing my little Kebler elf hat. Again, I do have one here. The other one that I'll mention just because I'm sure there are people listening who have if not chronic pain, then occasional pain. I mean, particularly as you just accumulate life, bumps and bruises along the way. I have begun to, and I really try not to take oral anti-inflammatories much at all. There was about a year and a half when I was on prescription anti-inflammatories and all this stuff, which is just systemically not great for you, but I needed it at the time for back pain. Curcumin phytosome from Thorne. So really

switching from inseds like ibuprofen, aka advil or naproxin sodium, aka a leave, just shifting away from that stuff to curcumin. Everybody should read the blog post article called no biological free lunch. But like, there is some trade-off. And part of the reason I stopped using curcumin on a regular basis, which also seems to have some potential effects on slowing the onset of neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's. So it seems to have a lot of applications. But if I used it daily for, say, a week or two, and then I stopped, I would be incredibly sore for a few days afterwards. And I was like, I don't love that. So I'll probably cycle on and off. But I have shifted to Thornbrand, and I have no dog in that fight, nothing to gain from saying

that curcumin phytosm. Those are a few. Now, you've got a lot on your list. I haven't gone too far into the Google Doc, but where should we start? We've covered, well, where should we start? We've already started. Before we move on from this topic, though, I think it's important to mention is that when I first started doing the ketogenic diet with Peter Tia as my physician, he was running my blood work. And I am one of the unique individuals that, because heart disease runs in my family, I have that genetic marker that essentially hates saturated fat. And so my APOB shot up through the roof so much so that he goes, he freaked out. And he was like, okay, you can never do the ketogenic diet again. Abort. Abort. Yeah, aboard. So if you're going to do the ketogenic diet, definitely get your

blood work done. Check your APOB. Make sure you're working with your doc. It's not a free lunch for everyone. No, it's not. And also, I'll say so I'm a cholesterol hyper absorber. So I also have to be very careful of saturated fat intake. So if I'm not in ketosis, I really do watch any type of saturated fat intake. Also have to be careful around MCT oil to a certain extent. But since I am on medication already for controlling some of that, my body was actually able to tolerate the ketogenic quite well. But the point of all of this is you need a professional tracking this and helping you to understand what you're working with. Because, I mean, the number of people who got really into, back in the day, bulletproof coffee. Oh, my God. I had so many of those. And then realized, oh, shit, my labs are so bad that it looks like I could have a heart attack tomorrow. You just have to know thyself. And that begins with measurement and professional guidance. So yeah, thanks for saying that. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about people in your house.

Yeah. So one of the things I've been thinking about lately is how one approaches modern day home security in terms of like how you protect yourself. So it was one of the things I wanted to ask you, you know, what you're doing at home because one of the things that I had recently was a homeless person in my closet. I thought you were screwing with me, but this is actually a real thing. Yeah, so basically what happened is, I only say my closet because we ended up getting the place. So real quick for people that aren't aware, I was part of those crazy fires that happened out in California.

We lost our house. Everybody was safe and sound, which is great. And we moved into an apartment. And recently I found a new place to move into. We were touring the house. And my wife is upstairs. She walks out of the room. And she looks at the person that's showing us the house and goes,

there's somebody in the closet and I'm like, what are you talking about? It's an empty house, like a brand new empty house. Like, what are you talking about? And she goes, yeah, I opened the closet door. He was crunched down in the corner and he puts his finger up to his lips and goes, shh, like don't tell anybody. Like nothing more creepy than that. And he walks out and he's like, hey.

And we're like, who are you? And he's like, yeah, I just, you know, I just live in here. And he ended up being like a really nice guy. I was actually kind of impressed because he goes, you know, I make the bed every day. I wash my clothes here because there's a washer and dryer here. And I just, I'm keeping the place nice. But he goes, this is what I do. I felt really bad for him because he said he worked at a car wash.

He makes $500 a month. He can't afford a place to live. And this is what he does. He just crashes in homes that are under construction and they're like newly built homes. and he was then he started bragging he's like you won't believe so in the mansions i've lived in crazy and i was like this is crazy and so he leaves and then he won't leave like he's standing in the driveway like just standing out there and we're like hey buddy like you kind of have to go you know and then he just stands there and we like shut the door we're like okay clearly

he's not a complete of sound mind but he's a nice enough guy yeah and eventually he knocks on the Oregon and he's like, I left all my stuff in the cupboards there and he had all this stuff in the cupboards, peanut butter and like all this stuff. And I was just like, ah, this poor guy. So we ended up sending him some, he had a cell phone. So we, the guy at the realtor was nice enough to send him some, some cash to like help him, you know, get a meal that night and whatnot. But it makes you think especially, I mean, when I was younger, listen, I lived in some really shitty alleys and bad places in San Francisco. So I'm fine with that. But when you have kids, like, it's a different story. It's a different story, right?

And so I immediately started thinking like, what, what do you do? And so I went and did some research online, and this is one of the pepper sprays that I found, all of the home defense stuff that I had before burned in the fire. Yeah. And so I'm basically starting from scratch. And so I bought two pepper sprays and a taser. And I'm just wondering, what does Tim Ferriss do for home protection? I know you do.

You got an AR-15s and shit. Well, all right. So this is not, let me, let's see, there are, it's not weapon advice. No, yeah, this is not professional weapons. Talk to your professional armorer. Yeah, exactly. All right. So I would say a few things.

For me, step number one, there are a few things. We can say, how do we get really good at pulling people out of the river? But then there's like, why are people falling in the river in the first place? And it's actually doesn't have two to. paraphrase. But the point of that is that there's what do I do when someone's in my house or who comes to my house. And then there's, how do we just prevent that from happening in the first place? There's serendipitous accidental slash unpredictable randomness. And then there's like premeditated trying to find you. So I would say that for me, step number one is

choosing very carefully where you live, if you can, and secondly, just paying a lot of attention to privacy. So if you might have people who are going to seek you out, and this is going to become an increasingly relevant problem for anyone who even becomes micro-famous for a second. You think it might not happen. You have, who knows, you're doing something funny. You end up with 3,000 followers on Instagram or TikTok or wherever.

3,000 people is a lot of people. Yeah, all it takes is one crazy one. All it takes is one crazy one. and for that reason there are lots of basics and none of these are foolproof but it's like buying your home through an entity of some type which doesn't need to cost a lot of money but simply to cut down on how easy it is for casual kind of fair weather stalkers to find you never having anything shipped to your home address always having a uPS store or some type of mailbox where everything is sent. Because if someone, for instance, sends anything to your house, maybe they're

trying to be really nice. It's a friend of yours. And they send you one 800 flowers. This is not a real example. I'm just making that up. But they, they send you flowers. And those businesses rent and trade and maybe even sell mailing lists as part of their business. Or they get hacked. Or they get hacked. Like before you know it, you're doxxed. Your home addresses everywhere. So I would say that thinking about privacy and honestly trying to red team yourself that's just to say we won't get into what that actually means but it's the basics are have one of your friends who's smart pretend to be a stalker and try to find you right preferably somebody who has some technical chops or is at least tech savvy because just because someone's crazy does not mean they're stupid there's

actually a lot of unstable smart people out there. So that's step number one for me. Since taking all of that stuff seriously, I very rarely had to deal with any type of stalker issues. People in my, I haven't, yeah, the people in the closet are a thing of the past. College years. Yeah, then I would say, I never thought that high rises condos would be of any interest to me, but there are added layers of security. So my place in Austin is way the hell off of ground floor. There are multiple, I don't want to say security points, but you need a key and a fob to get through the elevators and to get past the front desk and to do these various things. So I would also consider that as a viable option if you currently have or expect to have

any type of real public exposure, right? And again, this seems like a problem for the 1% of the 1% of the top creators. That's not going to be the case. And increasingly, this is a problem, even for people who are micro-famous to a few thousand people. So that's step number one, but you're very savvy with a lot of that kind of stuff. On a home security level, and you mentioned the kids, you and I have shot firearms together. We did three-gun shooting training with Terran Tactical? Way back in the day before he was everywhere. Tim Ferriss Experiment. Yeah, good for him. Yeah, we did a lot with Terran over the spend of a few days, like a bunch of training before he did the John Wick movies and everything else, right? That's where Keanu Reeves trains. That's an amazing spot. So we both know how to shoot guns. And I have firearms and so on. I'm not recommending that for everybody. If I had kids, I would rethink that really, really strongly. Because kids are smart. And yes, you can have like biometric. safes and this, then, the other thing. But, you know, Jim Jeffries does sort of a hilarious and tragically realistic reenactment of gun stuff in the U.S. He's from Australia. He's

hilarious and very politically incorrect. If you want to check out his comedy, he's been on the podcast too. But basically, it's like if you want your guns ready to go, you need to be able to get them quickly. Okay. But if you want them secure enough that your kids are insured against some type horrible accident, which is sadly pretty common, then you need them really, really fail safe in their protection, right? So they're sort of moving the right direction with taser and so on. Some people obviously have physical security. I think physical security is often overrated compared to digital security, frankly. So for instance, it's like if you have physical security for a portion of the day or at your home, and then you're constantly posting where you are

on social media in real time or you're putting your family on actually publicly accessible social media. It's like, I remember this friend of mine wasn't really thinking about it, right? Because he doesn't have a lot of exposure to crazy people, but has become better known in his niche sphere. And he was at the grocery store with his kids and somebody recognized his kid and was like, oh, that's so-and-so. Like, recognized his kid, not him. Right. That's spooky as fuck. Yeah, people have done that with my dog. Yeah. They actually see Toaster and they're like, oh, there's Toaster, and I'm not even there.

Yeah. And they see Toaster and they can recognize it, which is crazy. So I would say if you're intending on having people familiar with how to use a taser or pepper spray or any of that stuff, first of all, even with firearms, most police officers in a pinch will not be able to hit someone under dark conditions at any decent distance. I mean, and that's not to insult police officers. It's very, very hard, which is why people use bear spray instead of firearms, oftentimes, with bears. It's just easier to get the job done. So you might consider, because that little pepper spray that you just showed me, the effective range of that is probably going to be pretty low. It's like 10 feet, yeah.

But it is the highest concentration. Like this is like the heat tested. You know they have those ratings on them? Yeah. This is the highest legal concentration you can get, which I think is like 2.4. You can just get a bear spray that you can hit them at 25 feet. Yeah. And I mean, if you get to that point, right, and with a taser, I've played around with tasers before, amazing tool, but just like anything else, it takes a good amount of practice to be able to hit anything with that, particularly under duress, right? So what I'm training for, say, bow hunting, which I've done for 10 plus years now, the way that I'll train a lot of the time as I'm getting closer to the season is I'll do a bunch of kettlebell swings outside until my heart rate is peak. my hands are kind of shaking, and then I will grab the bow. I have the ability to shoot one arrow.

That's it. That's a pass fail. And practicing under those heightened conditions, I think is important if you're going to take it seriously. But when I've talked to my military friends, I know this is like uncorking a lot here, but sure, they're very good with handguns and they're very good, certainly with kind of their primary weapon system. And I'll talk to some of them about, say, hand-to-hand combat stuff. And yes, they're fundamentally, if they get to Tier 1 operator, they're kind of mutants and they're physically very, very, very impressive. And all of them can fight hand-to-hand. But the point they'll make, because they're not trying to become a black belt and jujitsu necessarily, although some of them are, they'll say, if it gets to the point

where I am having hand-to-hand combat, 17 things have gone wrong. Like, you never want to get to that point. Sure, you want to know enough that you can cover the base. Like, if it ever got to the point where you're tasing someone or your wife is having to use pepper spray, a lot of things proceeding and preventing that would have had to have gone wrong, right? Right. So I don't know if that's a satisfying answer. I do think, and I'm saying this is someone who takes certain precautions for natural disaster,

etc. But a lot of the prepper stuff misses the plot, I think, past a certain. point. And as much as we would all like to think that we're Steven Segal in the movies, not in real life, plus Jason Bourne, plus American sniper, we're not. Trust me. So out to prevention is worth a pandacure for sure. I mean, how are you thinking about it? Because, I mean, you're living in L.A. where it's not exactly marauders in Mad Max, but like you, there, there are some issues right it is certainly depending on the block you're on a roll of the dice on who's going to confront you and that becomes very clear at about 3 a.m. every night

yeah because you just hear the zombies in the street that are strung out screaming their brains out like just going crazy yeah and so it's less about someone's going to rob me it's more who's going to stumble into the yard or hop the fence or whatever it may be. So I've already put up those little spikies that will cut you wide open if you try and hop the fence. So those are, you know, you get those on Amazon. I got those. I put those all around the perimeter. So that's been good. I think about the pepper spray is more like I'm taking my kids out to the park or out to some place where, you know, you could bounce into someone. And for me, it's just like I don't want to engage. Like, could I take out a crazy person?

No, you don't want to engage. You don't want to engage. You don't want to engage. You don't want to engage. I mean, nobody's going to win. Everybody's going to get hurt. And if they have a knife, you're going to get stabbed or cut. Right. There's no way around it. You're not going to pull.

I mean, look, I'm sure there are some people out there who are master ninja disarmers, but here's what you can do. And I think Krav Maga has a lot to offer, but it sometimes instills a false sense of confidence in people. If you think you can disarm someone with a knife to have somebody take a nice big highlighter, hold on to it and be like, I'll give you $10 for every month. mark, you can leave on me and see what happens. You're going to get covered in highlighter. Yeah.

Those are all cuts. So it's not worth engaging. So I think if I had to bet, I'm sure other folks are going to have good ideas here, but I think spray is probably the way to go. Yeah. Spray is the way to go. It's going to have the most margin for error, and you'll have more rounds, per se, than a taser if you miss fire or you miss the target.

Yeah, fun time. So, people in your closet. That was the weirdest house showing I've ever been to. I could also totally see your wife just going. There's a person in the closet. Right, exactly. Like, it didn't free crowd at all. Very calmly. It was very strange.

I had to, I'm glad I kept my cool because I was just like, I get very protective of, especially when my kids are there, you know, and so it's just, yeah, he ended up being a very nice guy. Yeah. And you know, when I was younger, you know, growing up as a townie with a rat tail working in the restaurants on Eastern Long Island, where there are a lot of wealthy people, I would look at them with the hedges and all the protection. And I would just think to myself, what a bunch of assholes. Like, they think they're so important, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm like, yeah, okay, I get it. You don't want some weirdo just like digesting everything you're doing in the house, like someone watching TV. There are a lot of

unstable people out there. I hate to say it. And it's not like they're the majority of the population, but it just takes one. It's funny, I was walking through a grocery store the other day and here in LA and it's so strange because I had this flashback as when I was a kid and my dad would essentially say like, okay, go have fun in the grocery store. Oh, yeah. So I'd just run around and go to the toy aisle and see what they had and just like, you know, try and I grabbed some Twinkies and sneak them into the cart when he wasn't seeing and, you know, stuff like that.

That was like my childhood. And I looked around and I was like, I don't want my kids out of my kids out. of my sight. Like it was just filled with, I mean, there was a lot of people there that were clearly had, either were on drugs or had just taken a step too far in that direction. And we just didn't have that. It wasn't like, I was standard kind of lower middle class growing up. It's just what the drugs weren't as hardcore. You know, we would have alcoholics. Like, that was like kind of it. Like, if you saw somebody down on their luck, they were like an alcoholic, right and now you see people that are sadly just don't have the care and they're talking to themselves

and you know it's brutal it's really brutal and it's tough because there's no easy fix you know yeah so throwing stars and sharks with lasers folks i think that's where we i have throwing stars as a kid so dangerous i should bring it back i was allowed to do another thing literally i just threw out my throwing stars that i got from asian world of martial arts magazine like catalog I think they shipped it from Philadelphia. And I'm just like, I cannot believe I was allowed to play with these. Because what happens? You like throw a throwing start a tree.

It just bounces back and shoots right back at you. No, no, no, no. Here's what we did. So this was the hack. 100% they would just bounce back at you. So my dad, for some unknown reason, let me go into the garage and use his like metal grinder polisher to like, I made him sharper. I made him sharp.

And so mine would stick. in the tree. And so you would go to our front yard and then we're like all these holes in our tree from me just throwing, throwing stars. And like, I think he like kind of looked down. I was like, oh, that's cool. You know, the kids are throwing stars at the tree. Different world. I'm just. Different world. I'm amazed that I'm alive, honestly. Well, that was the same era where he would just be like, we're going to this grocery store jump in the back of the pickup and put your arms over the side. And yeah, the word of advice was like lean up against the back. So your backs are touching the back of the pickup. So you're protected.

Yes, you're protected. That's like the brace position in an airplane in case of impact. You're like, yeah, it's going to do a whole lot. I mean, I remember, sorry, I'll shut up on the reminiscing, but it is kind of wild. So I was into skateboarding. I was never, you were too. I was never terribly good at it, but I had like confidence, way in enthusiasm, way beyond my capabilities. And my parents, to their credit, were cool.

They made a homemade quarter pipe, right? now that sounds cool and I loved it but homemade quarter pipe like the angles aren't quite right and yeah and the way that we would use this because it's like there's just like grass and gravel around is drag it out and like a cars would go by and then you drag that quarter pipe out into the street yes we did the same thing skateboarding and then try not to get hit by traffic and then pull it back for sure we would just leave a quarter pipe sitting in the street and just like and then they'd be like drag it back to the sidewalk and we'd like drag it back and then I used to I had a trampoline in my backyard I was lucky to have my dad eventually

bought us a trampoline at Costco and I used to climb on my roof and jump off the roof onto the trampoline and he would hear me climbing on the roof and he'd come out and be like get off the damn roof and that was kind of it and then he just like watch me jump off the roof onto my back on the trampoline yeah well by a consequence of many mirror we are still here today. Exactly. Exactly. Explains the back pain. Yeah, explain. Yeah, no shit. Jesus. The number, yeah, it's not exactly a total mystery. So I want to hear about something that you texted me and people might be, who knows, I think it's interesting. Let's, let's hear about it. We got books, book recommendations coming. We got all sorts of stuff coming. So don't skip out. Also, shameless plug, coyote game.com just in case it doesn't come up later. It's gone fucking bananas right now, which we should talk about. But it's awesome. Why is you texted me in... Let's go gentle here on what I said exactly.

Okay. All right, you know what? I'm not even going to say it because I don't want to misstep and then put more work on my post-production. All right. What did you say to me? Well, we were talking about venture capital funds. We were talking about venture capital.

And what did you say? The way that I put it is that you had asked me about investing in certain funds. And I said, I would be careful because I would, I believe that venture is in a very, they're not necessarily on sound footing right now. Yeah, this is like the most doctored, Kevin, I've ever seen. Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I work in venture capital, so that's probably part of the reason why, so I have to be careful on what I say here.

So is it fair to say that the gist of what you're saying is VC is going to get, venture capital is going to get a lot harder. I believe it's going to be a lot harder for early stage funds. let's first start with the problem and what's changed. So essentially what we've seen in historically with venture capital is a venture capital can be a fantastic return for investors, if done right, because you get into early stage predominantly technology startups who are doing venture on the tech side. And if you get into the next Uber or Open AI or whatever, you know, pick your unicorn,

the returns are just insane. And they outpace that of pretty much all public. the S&P or whatever it may be. It's just a good asset class to be invested in. Not to have all of your eggs in that basket, but you certainly, a lot of professional investors would want some exposure to venture. Endowments want exposure. Universities. That's where a lot of the LPs, the limits of partners that invest in these funds come from. It's also how the GPs make a lot of their management fees. Yum, yum, yum. That's right. Yeah. So partners at firms both get management fees and they also get

upside in the return on those funds. And also for people who have not enough context, and I would have said this in the intro somewhere, but you have a ridiculous track record with not just creating companies, been investing in super early stage companies. And I've said this to a lot of people, like you're a rare breed because you are good, very good at investing in a whole lot of different asset classes at different stages of size and growth. And it's just it's very hard to do that. So I just want to understand. that Kevin is speaking from a place of being a very good practitioner of this craft. Continue. I appreciate you saying that. Oh, thank you. It's kind of you to say. I've certainly enjoyed

the journey. It's a crazy journey when you get to see these things at a very early stage and watch them grow and have eventual outcomes. But the craziness that's happening right now, it should come as no surprise for people listening, is that AI is the absolute darling of Silicon Valley right now. So everyone is talking about AI. All the funds are geared towards AI. I'm a partner over at True Ventures, I would say nine out of ten deals that we do these days are all AI focused in some regard. There was a couple decades of what Mark Andreessen famously kind coined is software eating the world. And now we've kind of transitioned into this world of AI eating the software. So AI is doing a lot of both retooling of the software to make it

more, I would say, AI dominant in that you need less employees. And AI does a lot more of the heavy shouldering of the burden and work. And so it's causing a lot of disruption all across multiple industries and multiple verticals, starting with customer service, eventually getting into coding and beyond. Drug discovery, I mean, basically everything. And eventually is like, I mean, next 12 months. I mean, it's got to be, I mean, I would imagine law firms are already reading the writing on the wall for, right, hiring of associates for wrote tasks that can be done in 30 seconds

by AI. I know actually a senior partner in a law firm. he is in charge of spearheading a huge AI initiative within the firm for cost cutting and efficiency. Yeah, absolutely. I've seen it on the legal side as well. Our mutual friend Josh Cook

has talked to his junior associates and said, look to your left, look to your right. One of you's not going to be here in the next five years. And it's most likely you're just going to be the AI. Five years is generous. Yeah, five years is very generous.

And so the tea leaves that I'm reading right now where I think the venture is going to have a hard time, is that I would say on non-capital intensive businesses, meaning that if you're building something that is hardware-based, you're building the next robotics company or whatever it may be. You need a lot of capital to kind of get that off the ground. There's no doubt that that's still the case. And so Venture makes a lot of sense. And I feel very fortunate that we were quite good at that particular area in that we've done the Pelotons and the Rings and the Fitbits and all those companies that kind of go off and build on the hardware side.

On the software side, what's happened in the last, I call it 18 months, is that the barrier to entry for a new engineer, you don't even have to be an engineer. They call it vibe coding now. And so if you have an idea, you can spend the next 48 hours, maybe, let's just say double that, watch YouTube videos and be, I would call it a second year computer science student in terms of your kind of efficiency and your ability to deploy. Yes.

So, Tim, even today, like if we started today and we said, okay, listen, we're going to make you watch these 10 videos on cursor and AI and use Claude Code and, you know, insert the four or five most popular AI coding tools right now. I would bet, without a doubt, within four days, you could dream up any app that you could imagine in terms of, you know, the Tim Tim ketone dosing regimen app, whatever it may be, and ketonesuppositories.A.I. Exactly. The Bugatti suppository, ketop's suppositories. Get sued immediately.

That'd be awesome. There's a co-branding deal there somewhere you're missing out on. But I'm not even kidding. You could actually ship that to the app store and have a fully functioning. And how much is it going to cost you? It's going to cost you traditionally. You'd have gone out. You'd hire a designer.

You would have gone out. You would have found an engineer. You probably would have maybe needed a back-in engineer, probably mostly front-in. You know, you'd pick your language. It would have been a whole, call it 250K project. Side end, power top, all those. Right. You know all the angles that you need to hit.

So you're already speaking code. Look at you. But imagine that's 250K traditionally, right? Yeah. That's $50 now. It's so nuts. Because your cursor account is going to be $50 a month. And you can go and you can deploy that on Vosell.

for an extra 20 bucks a month. I don't even know what Vercell is. But I want your help doing this because this is something I want to do. And just to interrupt for a second, and then I want you to tell me what those names correspond to because I haven't been tracking this very closely.

I've been meaning and meaning and meaning to dig into vibe coding. And then in a team thread with my employees, just like in a few hours at night for a couple of weeks, one of my part-time employees created like an app, a website, everything he wanted had to pay a little bit for a Getty image to like use Canva Pro to make some graphics. But all in I think $240 is what he said. And he was using base 44, which six month old solo owned vibe coder base 44 sells to Wix for 80 million in cash. That was June of this year. Then Lovable, right?

There's a host, this is in the same thread, which is why it's right here, top of mind for me. Vibe coding platform, Lovable becomes fastest growing software startup ever. Swedish AI start. I got to love the Swedes, right? I mean, they've got some good stuff. Yeah. Swedish AI startup lovable says it has surpassed 100 million in annual recurring revenue

ARR, just eight months after launch. This makes it the fastest ever software company to reach the milestone, eclipsing the historically rapid growth rates of companies such as Cursor and Whiz. That's bananas. Yeah. Eight months. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Yeah, Lovable, I think, is probably my favorite hosted vibe coding platform that's out there. If you're really taking vibe coding seriously, is seriously as you want to take that statement because it's still not coding. You're kind of viving your way through code. You would be using Cursor, not lovable, but lovable is, it's great. It's a great place to start, actually. Yeah.

Okay. So the point being. is that venture capitalists, what they do at the seed stage and the early stage is, it's their job to go out. Find entrepreneurs that are building exciting new products. Write that first, call it, you know, one, two, three million dollar check. Yeah. Get their ownership.

I don't need to get on bended knee for $240. Exactly. So what's going to happen is you're going to have 10x the amount of ideas hitting the market because anyone can code and probably even greater than that. I call it 50X. So we're going to try and fail a lot faster, which is great. And then you're going to have, and I've already seen this, startups that are one or two people, full investment, call it to their first million users, might be a couple of few thousand dollars. And they're already profitable and on their way to great things.

And yes, they're going to have, it's going to be buggy right now because the code is a little bit janky and a little bit half broken. That's going to get fixed real fast. Exactly. And in a year, it's going to be. Just, if it's second year a CS student right now in a year to be full on college grad, and you're off to the races. And you don't need to raise venture capital. Why would you? Why? Yeah. And also, how would venture capitalists even begin to filter and sort the winners from the losers? There's going to be so many. With that volume. Right. You can't have coffee dates with even one,

one hundredth of those founders, nor would they necessarily take the coffee to begin with. Exactly. Maybe if they just want to meet. is sure, and maybe at later stages, if they're going to be really fueling massive growth. But here's a question for you. You've got kids. I don't have any that I know of. I hope to change that at some point soon. But how are you thinking about educating your girls?

I would say, I don't believe there's a profession that is really kind of immune to the AI wave. I believe it's going to touch anything and everything that's out there. And so at the end of the day, this is really tough because I think the answer is the lamest one, which is you should be doing what you're most passionate about and where you can find your life's work and artists and crafts, handmade goods, things of that nature that will stand out and still be desirable because of the human touch side of things. So you're saying, I should buy a lot of Etsy. Yeah, I just can say, but then you just turn into an Etsy wool hat maker for saunas.

It's kind of your gig. Mitz. Sonna Mitz. I'm all about the Sond of Mitz. It's wild because for the last two decades of my career, I would have said computer science, computer science, like, it's all about, you know, these tech jobs and the tech industry that's the future. And I think if someone was just going into college and they said, hey, should I study CS? I don't think I would say yes. But I don't know where to point people because everything.

is kind of effed, you know? Yeah. I mean, there is, there is, and this isn't like Schadenfreude on my side, like wanting to celebrate the misery of others, but there is kind of this, like, poetic justice to techies creating tools that are killing themselves that people thought would take away kind of working class blue collar jobs.

And nope, surprise, bitch, we're taking all the coding jobs. We're taking all of the white collar jobs. Those are going to get smashed. I mean, so many of those jobs that are basically occupied by people who have helped create these tools are going to get obliterated. You know what's really interesting about that? It's a great insight. And one of the things that I have found, which is pretty exciting, actually, is that a lot of

technical people that I know that are very senior computer science, like hardcore, they're like, screw AI. Yes, it can look at my computer. code base and tell me where to look for something, but I am going to be the one that manually writes that code because ego, ego, ego, you know, that plays out. And then you have the scrappy designer that's the creative that says, I have never coded in my life, but I have a lot of ideas. And all of a sudden, that person is empowered, that creative is empowered in a way that they have never been empowered. Yeah, that's exciting. It's interesting because

And Dresen Horwidge, I actually did a post about this. It was just the LinkedIn post or something. Or they said, we're looking for designers to be the next CEOs. Where they were really brilliant in saying, actually, the next wave, forever, we've always said, technical co-founders, who's your technical co-founders? Who's your technical team? What's the technical shop? That's been the kind of lens at which we've evaluated the quality of a startup.

I think that really shifts to more of the creative side. I don't think VC is dead. I think what happens is that valuation is. go up, which is great. It means entrepreneurs give away less their company. And you fund them at a later stage. Because ultimately, if you're going and you've really hit the ball out of the park, you need to go from two to 200 people for a variety of different things that you need. It turns out you need a lot of stuff as a startup, not just more engineers. You're going to need some working capital. And VCs, that's what VCs will step in. And also, to be clear, and correct me if I'm

getting this wrong, but there are many sectors and many categories where venture capital or some source of financing is still inevitable, right? It's like if you're creating an anderil, you need cash, right? If you're producing something that has a hardware component, right? You're going to need some cash. Exactly. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I've thought, and I don't know if this is just a simplistic, primitive way to think about it, but I I'm really wondering, with everybody focusing on the hottest girl at the dance, which is AI and everything that has AI slapped on it, what are the neglected, unsexy, really fast-growing sectors, right?

And it makes me think of, I remember somebody showed me a chart. Somebody could look this up. We'll put it in the show notes. But if you just invested in Domino's pizza at the right time, like it would have smashed every tech company. Right. The growth rate was just shocking to behold, right? And it's like, what's the equivalent of Domino's pizza that has nothing to do, at least

at its core, AI, right? So in some sense, maybe it's outside of the overbearing influence of that. So maybe there's less likelihood of it getting completely disrupted, although, like you said, nothing is immune. But like Coca-Cola is going to be Coca-Cola. I don't want to invest in poison, so I'm not going to, no offense, Coke. like invest in that but there are certain things that may be fast growing and maybe more predictable and I'm just wondering what those things are so I have two that I think I've identified and I have

no crystal ball I have crystal balls but I use them for myself that didn't sound right yeah got to be careful you get end up in the ER they could be painful at times let's rephrase that this is my best guess at kind of where I see the puck going on a couple of different fronts. One is that I believe that, well, I know that's to be certain. Actually, it's kind of the same bet in just two slightly different ways, which is that the lifeblood of AI should come as no surprise. It's human data. It is human generated, actual human created data. In order for it to learn, to evolve, to understand where humanity is going, it has to drink from the blood of us humans to serve us. Such a nice

vampire man servant. So polite. This is why Reddit is getting $50 million plus a year to train on their data is why the Tim Ferriss blog should be charging AI to train on all of the original content that you've written. So what I really liked was a move that Cloudflare did here just a few weeks ago where they said, okay, everyone in the world uses Cloudflare that is their DNS more or less because they have anti-DDoS protection and all that good stuff, which is a fancy way of saying that your service day up and they're really good. Keep your side up. Yep.

Yeah, they keep your side up. So what they have done is they said if you own original content, like a Tim Ferriss, we can block the AI bots so we won't let them train in our data. But we're also going to create a marketplace. Oh, that's fucking brilliant. If you want to sell to the AI companies, they can bid to actually license your data. Yeah. Isn't that brilliant?

That is brilliant. And the first thing that comes to mind is, I mean, there are a lot of smart people working in these AI companies because they just use way back machine to scrape all your stuff anyway. But I imagine Cloudflare is thinking about it. But yeah. Well, I mean, that's also, it's always going to be the most recent stuff as well, right? Like there's no doubt they could go get a copy of Wikipedia and train on that. And they have.

But they're going to need, what does Tim Ferriss think about, you know, the latest gLP ones? And that's going to come out next month, right? So they always need to be training on the latest stuff. So that's one. And part of the reason why, and I swear this isn't a self-plugged, but part of the reason what we're Alexis O'Hanian, the co-founder of Reddit and myself are rebooting dig.com, is that we believe that human authenticated original content is going to be so important to safeguard.

Because if all these social sites are just flooded with bot content, it's just good. Just looking at the comments on some of these platforms, I'm like 90 plus percent of this is all bot. It's all bot. Here's the crazy thing. It's like you can still tell a little bit that it's bots. But in a few years, or not even that, in a few months, six months. You won't even know it's bots.

You'll just be sitting there being like, wow, that was a really thoughtful review that person wrote about X headphones. And then you'll buy them off Amazon. You'd be like, why the hell of these headphones suck so bad? It's because there were 37 bots and they're all championing these headphones about how they're so amazing. And it's all BS. Everything.

Nothing is to be trusted. So there's this whole theory called the dead internet theory, which is that eventually the internet is just going to be completely overrun by. agents, AI agents that are infinitely patient that will write perfectly screwed up copy, enough for you to believe it, right? Because it can't be perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this is just all going to come.

And so for us, what we're focused on is really creating a safe haven for humans to have real conversation. And that's exciting. So those are the two kind of things that I believe original content creators, as long as you can prove that you're an actual human, are going to be rewarded ultimately, hopefully by the AIs that crawl you. How do you think that authentication is going to work? Because doing like private and public keys and stuff,

there's too much of an education hurdle to make that work, I would think. I think maybe Sam Altman has yet another company that is focused on human authentication. But what do you think is going to actually make the cut and become the standard of the driver's license for proving? Like, this is me. There's so much AI deep fake stuff out there right now with just I can speak personally. and it's so good, and it's within six months, like you said, it's going to be indistinguishable or close to indistinguishable. This is something that I've kind of spent a lot of time thinking pretty deeply about,

and I traded a couple notes with Sam, and I met with the CEO of the retinal scanner company Tools for Humanity. They're making that orb that scans your eyeball and went and met with them, and I actually got my retina scanned and did that whole process. It is not for everyone. I think a lot of people will kind of freak out by that. It is anonymous. Like they've done it in a way that shards your data.

They can't link it back to you, all that good stuff. But that's too much explaining. Consumers are not just going to believe that. They'll use it for their TSA precheck or whatever it may be to skip the line. But I don't think for everyday purchases or general internet trust, it is going to hit scale. They're paying people to do it right now, which I think is probably a signal that you don't quite have the right product if you have to pay people to use it. So, I don't know.

It'll certainly be an authentication method that a lot of sites will use and support. And I could see us doing that as well. I can see users of the internet, let's just say broadly speaking, not wanting to use it for, well, if they had to for a checkout purpose to pay for things, then they would. But having a lot of resistance for, say, just logging into Facebook or Instagram. But as a creator, if I want to give my fans a way to confirm that something is mine, Right. Then I think you're heavily incentivized to use something like that. Right. Yeah. And I think that there's, so there's two sides of the-

But the education part is so hard. Just to teach people what to look for. It's got to become as common in the vernacular as driver's license for people to just know what to look for. If I have to be like, okay, guys, I'm going to teach you the exact watermark and this and that. And watch out for these fakes, though, because they're very similar, but it's never going to work. Right. And that's where I think. there's going to be a couple things. We're talking about a handful of different things here, right? Because we're talking about consumers.

How do I trust another consumer that when they say these headphones are the best headphones, I can really believe that. And then you're talking about how do I know that Tim Ferriss is Tim Ferriss, right? Those are two different things. They're different. I think on the, I'm actually writing an article for Wired right now about this, where the trust is moving from a binary thing where we had binary trust before, meaning that back in the day, and I don't think this is any longer the case, but more or less,

you could go on to Twitter when it was called Twitter, and you would see a blue check box next to someone and say, oh, yeah, that person has been verified or validated in some way, right? So it's a very binary, like, I guess I trust this person because of said box and graphic. Trust is moving to a gradient. And I think it's very much going to be a score or a level-based trust system where trust will be defined by a collection of actions that you take online. collection of proofs that you do online. So a hardcore proof would be I got my retina scanned. I'm showing you that I got my retina scanned. And here's my proof of that. A gradient would be I've been

a paying customer for this service for X number of months. I can prove it. Or I have purchased these headphones. You know, that's what the Amazon verified purchase does. Right. And so there are going to be open standards for that. And it's going to be messy, but it will work. And that if you come on the future version of Dig, for example, if you come on there and you say, hey, I own an aura ring and I love it, anyone can say that. And so how do I trust that? And so one way to trust that is to, there are these fancy technologies. I won't get into it here, but they're called ZK proofs, where you can go in and I can authenticate basically with my aura account and prove to you without exposing who I am, but I can do cryptographic proof that I have owned an aura ring for five years.

have used it daily. And so those types of proofs, almost like the way that we see secure certificates when we check out now on an e-commerce site and we trust them because they are cryptographically secure, we will have those types of proofs for almost anything and everything that exists online. And so when you engage with another user, you'll be able to say, okay, I'm clicking on Tim. How do I know that these are the ketones that he trusts or whatever it may be, and there will be multiple ways to cryptographically prove in a non-geeky way. That's the key here. It can't be something that my mom won't understand.

Read this white paper. Exactly. It can't be that. So it's going to be a little rough for the next couple of years while we hammer this stuff out. We come up with standards. We figure out with very easy consumer ways to show this. But ultimately, at the end of the day, there needs to be this.

And also, the other thing I was going to tell you is, I believe deeply that here, human connection matters, and that we need to really encourage more of that to happen. So one of the things that we're without trying to spill the beans too early and what we're building a dig is a lot of proof around... I was still thinking about the crystal balls. Go ahead. Yeah. We're not going to spill the, crack the crystal balls on this yet.

But I will say that in person means a lot. And so when you actually gather in a location with other people proving with technology, technology you've actually met in person and had broken bread in person is going to create a trust network that is unlike anything that can be done online. And so that's on us to build and figure out as well, which is going to be pretty exciting. Yeah, I have, this might seem like I'm still in my bags, but I've thought this for a long time, just some, you know, launching a card game literally as we record this. But I am so long analog. And the reason that I'm long analog is that at least one of the silver linings, I think, of this post-truth internet experience, at least for a while.

It's going to be messy AF for a while. Yes. And it's also a cat and mouse game, right? It's not like you create the use authentication. There's no response. It's a cat and mouse kind of cloak and dagger situation. There's so many incentives financial and otherwise to scam people that trust me, the scammers have great. Some of them are really sophisticated. And it's an arms race. And I, speaking as someone who's not an engineer, I'm not a computer scientist, but I would like to think of myself as pretty tech savvy. I've taken social media apps off of my phone for the last handful of years, and I have systems for trying to sort fact from fiction, but it has become so exhausting, and it's going to become 100x exhausting. I'm done with it. I don't want to walk

into this house of fun house mirrors and watch things that are fake, read things. things that are fake, have to decipher what's true and what isn't and get misled. There's so much downside that I really am optimistic, at least I hope, that people are going to actually do what we're evolved to do, we'll just spend more time interacting with humans, IRL. And we're seeing that with running clubs and board game nights and these various offline activities that are exploding in popularity. Who knows if that'll sustain, but you're seeing it in every major city in the United States, at least. And that gives me some hope. Because if there were nothing to offset the opiate addiction of short form video and perfectly tune algorithmic feeds,

we're entertained to death. We're done. This is exactly why I think a big portion of this social site that we're building is going to be about in-person connection. It really has to be. And you actually, Tim, you were a big inspiration for this. One of the things that we talk about, remember when you had your, did those global meetups where people gathered in. Yeah, yeah, that was so far. Do you remember the name of the service that you used? It was, let me get it right. It's river. I think it's river.io. And let me just make sure I'm getting that right. It's get river. dot io in-person event and social platform for communities so i used this service to run the podcast 10th anniversary global meetups around the planet we had 157 cities thousands of people meeting up in

person who have already a bunch of common interests or at least lived experience like they've listen to the podcast. So they have something automatically they can talk about for meeting in person. And it was so much better than I could have ever hoped for. It was so much fun. Some of these meetups had hundreds of people. Some had four or five. And what I hoped would happen and what did happen is a lot of these people have stayed in touch and they're meeting up afterwards. It wasn't just a one and done. Right. Exactly. Great experience. And the team over there was awesome. Yes. So I met with her because of you. And then she was amazing. And we're going to use them for our dig launch. In fact, we're doing a meetup tonight, close to 100 people in

LA, just randomly threw it out there last week. And it's exactly this, where if we can build part of that functionality into the product itself and encourage people with these interests that when you just, you figure out that your weird is not so weird. If you're into Japanese woodworking or the Tim Red Rooms that you love, like whatever you're into. Kevin's Crystal Balls. Yeah, exactly. You can find 10 other people that are and you can go break bread with them and hang out. But I think that is the future because don't get me wrong.

I still want to launch that app and learn about those funky weird things that I would only find online. And you and I trade so many ridiculous videos, I wouldn't want that to go away. No. But I also need to go and get outside and actually breathe. some fresh air and meet people, right? And so I think that has to be a big part of what we do at dig. And a lot of it was inspired by your success there, which is great.

Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know that. And I got it, since we're so on topic, I got to just flash this guy right here. Yes. So as you know, I've been so nervous about this and excited, but so Coyote of this card game, it's fast casual, a couple of minutes to learn, 10 minutes to play. Kids love it. Turns out people have had a few drinks or smoked a little weed. Also love it does not help performance, but does make it pretty hilarious to watch. We'll have to see if that's okay to keep in, but who's called out in front of ours that likes to play games.

And it's finally launching everywhere. Walmart's had the exclusive for a few months, and they've been actually awesome, and it's been a bestseller, and it's started to go kind of bananas and gameplay videos we've texted about this a little bit but gameplay videos online have more than 300 million views now dude which is so amazing it's so crazy congratulations man thanks after the NFTs I'm glad to see you actually doing something that works yeah got to practice my art in a different way and you know we're not going to get into a mud wrestling match of NFTs. I am still going to do a bunch with that cockpunch Legends of Verlata universe. You wait and see. I'm actually going to do a bunch of it. But yeah, it's been going nuts. If people go to Amazon or wherever Target,

it's all over the place. It's 8,000 plus retail locations as of this week. It's feeding into all the locations. That's amazing. And it's actually giving me both flashbacks that are really pleasant and also a little bit PTSD with my first book. because the inventory is not getting to the warehouses fast enough. So it's actually, it can be a little challenging to buy this thing. But hey, soak it all in, man. Enjoy that moment, though, right? Because, like, you're in a great place to even have that issue.

Yeah. And it's so awesome. And you know what's also been super fun is I've played with friends. I've seen all the playtesting with families because we tested it with like 100 plus families. We tested the hell out of this. in so many iterations. And it's ready. Like, it's going. But I had a chance to play with a group of strangers, two different groups of strangers at a game shop in Brooklyn last weekend. And we were recording it for an instructional video. And they're not actors. They're people who love games,

but people I'd never met before. And the amount of fun that we had, that was the real test for me. Right? Because it's like if I have a bunch of my dumb friends and we've had two drinks each and we have so much fun anyway together, it's a warm audience. The game still has to work and it did. But with a group of strangers where it's a little uncomfortable in the beginning and everyone's a little stiff. And then by the end we're like slapping shoulders and high-fiving and laughing our asses off. I was like, okay, I can finally exhale a bit with this thing. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. It's actually on its way. Dude, that is so awesome. Yeah. You caused a micro fight in our house last night because of the game. Was it over whether somebody messed up or not? No. So here's what happened. I was playing Roblox with my kids and then Dari had her headphones in.

And so she couldn't hear me and the kids were asking questions. And I was like, she's listening to her podcast. And I'm like, can you take them out so you can engage with the kids? And she's like, well, if we weren't playing this and we could play something like coyote, then we wouldn't have this issue because we could all play as a family. And I'm like, oh, fuck. Oh, man. A quick, funny note on Roblox, I actually want to interview the founders of Roblox.

It's such an incredible, just such a wonder they've created. And they've also actually, I'm sure you did not know this, maybe you did. They have funded a ton of research related to dietary interventions for various psychiatric conditions, like the ketogenic interventions. So they've actually funded a lot of science related to that. so on a whole bunch of levels. But the reason that I brought up Roblox is because you sent me and Saga this video, this like screen capture of playing Roblox, which is honestly really relaxing.

It's so relaxing to watch. Yeah, the garden that I grew. Yeah, the garden that you grew with the cherry blossoms. Very relaxing to watch. But there is this classical music playing. And I was like, wait a fucking second. You stop drinking and now Kevin's listening to classical music. What is happening here?

It's built into the game. It's built into the game. Grow a garden has millions of users now. I have the beautiful cherry blossom bushes. If anyone wants to come check out my garden. And I built little forest for my kids to play in there. I've got some great bamboo. And I just got a rare little red Zen dragon today, which is cool.

Congratulations. Thank you. There's one percent chance to get it on a roll. And so it's 20 bucks per 10 rolls. Oh, wow. What a bunch of geniuses. Yeah. And I won't even tell you.

What I've done there. I'm not proud. This is like when they're doing their internal presentations. They're like, okay, so Q2 has been great. They're like really, it all hinges on the 1% of overspenders. Here's an avatar. We call it Kevin Rose. Exactly.

We don't know who this user is. Oh, my God. Awesome, man. So nice to see you. Always. Yeah, good to see you as well. Yeah, we got to hang. This is also, all this talking about in person, I'm like, man, we've got to hang in person.

I'm sorry to the, you got family and lots of stuff. I didn't give you a ton of heads up either on the wilderness trip, but we got to do something. Got to do something in person. 100% Japan trip or something. Japan trip. Or I will be in L.A. actually next month. So I'll let you know, either next month or the following. So I'll let you know.

I'll be in L.A. Awesome. Let's do a little meetup. Yeah. Speaking of in person stuff. Kev, kev. all right sweet man well i think you got anything to add for folks anything to tell people if yeah so we that crazy site that i was telling

uh oh yeah yeah um dig dot com with two gs is rebooting g dot com yeah from the old internet's if you remember it from way back in the day it's rebooting alexis and i and my ceo justin are working hard at work on it we want to give people an early invite it's in beta right now if you want to check out kind of a next gen crazy fun social network that is all about news and craziness around the web, email, and we will put you on the early invite list, Tim, two Tims, at dig.com, DIGGG.com, and we will let you skip that list and get you in one of the early invite lists. So Tim, Tim. And just FYI, I'm not going to disclose because I don't know if it's public, but that's a long, like there's a long list. Several hundred thousand

people. The bouncer will be letting you skip and come through the velvet ropes. We've only let 25,000 in so far, and we have a couple hundred thousand people waiting on the wait list. And so far, people are loving it. And we're just getting started. So we've got a lot to build. So fun. So fun. Well, you look great, man. You sound great. Congratulations on the 100 days. That's a big, big deal. It sucks that you feel so much better. I hate it. Because I feel better. I'm like slimming up a little bit. You know, and it's... I assume you're being sarcastic. No, everything seems better. I want to have a couple of drinks, you know? but you're getting to spend money on Roblox instead, you know?

In terms of instead of the vice that kills your liver, you got a vice that kills your bank account, you know, you've got to trade. I will say I've definitely kind of just shifted that funnel of cash over straight to go blocks in the grow garden. That little freaking dragon guy cost me like two grand or something. That's the Kevin I know and love. There you go. He's back.

He's back. Let's do some nanoblocks together. Yeah, I'm down for some nanoblocks. I think I need one that is sub 500 pieces to start with. I'll save this little ramen for you and we'll do it live on video. That'd be fun. 140 pieces. I have Craig Motz set up the audio for us.

Yeah, exactly. All right, cool, man. Awesome to see you, buddy. All right, brother. Talk soon. All right. And everybody listening, I guess we'll probably have some show notes for this. So Timed up blog slash podcast, random show and just look for the newest ones.

All right, everybody. Be well, be kind. and thanks for tuning it. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?

Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter, called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things.

It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your

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