The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 134: Making Money Pt. 2 (Bacchanalian Hysterical Dancers)

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This w...eek, Part 2 of our recap of “Making Money”. Dancing! Desert Islands! Pencils! Potatoes! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: thetruthshallmakeyefretpod@gmail.comPatreon: Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:If There’s a Man Among Ye: The Tale of Pirate Queens Anne Bonny and Mary Read - Smithsonian Magazine ‘Help! I’ve been spotted!’ Terry Pratchett on Thief, his favourite video game - The Guardian Cabinets of Curiosities and The Origin of Collecting - Sotheby’sTally stick - Wikipedia  Music: Chris Collins, 

Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 we're both just highlighting random things in the document today, which is the sure sign that we're both bit sleepy. I went to play Crazy Golf last night. I'm bad at that. So is that the new one in town? Yes. Yeah. Ah, cool. It's very much as I said in the group chat built for millennials. There was very...
Starting point is 00:00:18 Wow, I can't remember what year it was. But when I was 18, kind of playlist. 2010s, like late 2000s, like 2000s early, 20 turns. Yeah, exactly. And like neon stuff and like UV lights, not all that very, very reminiscent. Yeah, if that had been around when we were teenagers, we would never have left.
Starting point is 00:00:35 No. And I think they've got escape rooms as well, which I've never done, have you? I hate the idea of doing an escape room. Oh, that surprises me. I like like logic puzzles and stuff. Yeah. Um, but I'm a screaming control freak.
Starting point is 00:00:49 Uh, so I would struggle with doing that with almost any people. Hmm. Uh, and I do get a bit claustrophobic and it's not so much tight spaces. Like I'm not allowed to leave the space and I think I would get really furious really quickly. Fair enough. Yeah. So yeah, the idea that just really doesn't feel to me.
Starting point is 00:01:06 I did decide that if I went with my group of friends, that we were going to bring our partners because we're all different flavours of neurotic and have married quite sensible and good people. See, this is the problem with the idea of me doing an escape room. I'm a screaming control freak. And I like logic puzzles. I'm not very good at them. That's not true. It depends on the sort of puzzle. Okay. But I feel like what I would mostly do in an escape room can only be described as screeching delegation. Oh, no. I'm not sure if that's a bad name or a
Starting point is 00:01:44 Drag name or a... Drag name or... Drag name or... An unfortunately medical complaint. Ah, the screeching... no, I can't even... The screeching delegation of querm possibly like a genetic contingent. The oratory stenolism I can eat cod now. Exactly. Oh yeah, so I've been going through a deep and complex emotional crisis.
Starting point is 00:02:08 Go on. Well, the reboot of the original Tomb Raider games comes out on Valentine's Day. And I thought I'd pre-ordered it on Steam, but I hadn't. That's not really the crisis. Okay, good. I can't decide now that I know I haven't pre-ordered it on Steam, whether to get it on PC or PlayStation. Because on the one hand, I like a PlayStation game, I like being able to sit and play on the
Starting point is 00:02:29 sofa, I've already got a couple of games on the go on Steam. But on the other hand, I played two, and I'm getting this for Tomb Raider 2, which is my favourite on which I grew up playing and you know, have most of memorised, I played it on the computer. It would feel wrong to not play it on the computer. I was going to say, I get it on whatever you played it on the computer. It would feel wrong to not play it on the computer. I was going to say, I get it on whatever you played it on first. Yeah. So I'm leaning PC, but I feel like maybe I'm not getting enough use out of my shiny PlayStation. Yeah. But you're such a replayer of games anyway. You can play it on PC and then like
Starting point is 00:02:57 in a year when you want to replay it, you can buy the PS4 version, PS5 version. Yeah, which will probably be really cheap. But also, final fantasy seven rebirth comes out soon. So I'll definitely be getting some use out my PlayStation. I saw the trailer of that looked bad, but probably good people who are in final fantasy. I don't know anything about it. So all I saw was like, cut to scantily clad anime women cut to annoying looking cartoon animal cut to like, none of this seems like it goes together. It can't that's the joy of Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy seven was like, I mean, it's an iconic game. But it was also like formative for me as a kid. It was really loved. And you think that's bad. Try and comprehend Kingdom Hearts, both the concept
Starting point is 00:03:42 and plot. It's Final Fantasy meets Disney. See, I think I love these games when I was kid, I absolutely would and plot. It's fun or fun to see me. It's Disney. See, I think I love these games when I was kid. I absolutely would have done and then if I had, I'd probably love them now because nostalgia, but I think it's too late for me to try now. No, it's fair. You don't have to. I don't like turn based combat anyway. Yeah, no, I struggle with turn based combat, which is made Baldur's Gate 3 really fun. I'm like nearly at the end of it, but I've got a couple of really big and wing fights to get to and I'm so tempted to just chuck the difficulty right down so I can like find out what happens
Starting point is 00:04:12 at the end of the game. Loretta Oh, I've been watching our flag means Das, speaking of storyline. Gareth Oh, I haven't started watching the new series yet. Loretta Yeah. Gareth Because, writing. But I'm really looking forward to watching the new series, even though sad
Starting point is 00:04:25 because it's now over. But mini-driver. Yeah, if you like the character. Yeah, she's, it's Aunt Bonnie, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yes. I know some of these. I think you're dead to me did an episode on her, actually. Or I've read something about her somewhere. Yeah, quite possibly. I definitely listened to that. Could have been you're dead to me, could have been noble blood or she wasn wasn't aristocrat I think?
Starting point is 00:04:47 Loretta No. Oh, I've also been knitting. I'm making the like fisherman style jumper that Chris Evans wears in Knives Out. Gaby Oh, the one that pays for a picture of on Twitter. Loretta Yes, I finished the back, which means I've knit a large square. Gaby You've knitted a cape., which means I have knit a large square. You've knitted a cape. I have knitted a cape.
Starting point is 00:05:12 And what is a jumper but two capes and some tubes? That is basically what I'm making. It's very exciting for me. I'm glad. I'm glad. I think that sounds like a good healthy outlet for emotion knitting. Knitting is actually called a good outlet. For me it makes me cross. That's fine. I mean, it does really humble me and make me confront whether or not I can actually count to three. Which I think is important for you.
Starting point is 00:05:34 Yeah, I think I need that. But also there's a kind of repetitive stabbing motion that I think now I don't work in a kitchen. I kind of need a bit of that in my life as an outlet. Repetitive stabbing motions. Honestly, the reason that restaurants have stuff that needs to be crushed on a menu is so that chefs have an opportunity to just hit something with a mallet or a rolling pin. Yeah, it's actually the only reason meat is tenderised, isn't it? It doesn't need it. It's just to let chefs play with that mallet.
Starting point is 00:06:00 Yeah, it's just to help the chefs de-stress. Don't come at me, I know there's actual reasons for tendering. I looked at my microphone when I said that, like if the listeners are kind of living in it. Just the really pedantic ones. Yes, I cursed them and trapped them in my microphone to listen to me be slightly wrong forevermore. There's a warning to all of you. I think you've actually mispronounced chef there, Joanna.
Starting point is 00:06:26 Chef. Shut a shelf. Show. Oh, well, we're both mentally stable. Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, I think that would really help cement our mental stability. Let's make a podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Trisha Mickey Freightighter podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one us time in Cornelius Clawdor.
Starting point is 00:06:50 I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this week is part two of Making Money. Oh yeah. The long middle bit. The long middle bit chapters four through seven. Inclusive. Got that first.
Starting point is 00:07:04 I wasn't going to say it this time. Okay. bit chapters four through seven. Inclusive. Got that first. I wasn't going to say it this time. Okay. The joke gets higher if I said it every time. I think I'm just chipping that along. Excellent. Okay. Now on spoilers, before we crack on, we are a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book making money,
Starting point is 00:07:22 but we will not be spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series and we're saving any in all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepard's Ground, until we get there so you dear listener can come on the journey with us. Creeping silently through a scary bank at night. Excellent. I'm going to talk about that in a bit. I'm really excited to talk about that. Follow up quickly. A few people via email and discord contacted us to give us some context for the German translation of the book title. So Rebecca's email because Rebecca was the first one to get in. Well done. Lou Peter up on the fridge. We've put your email on the podcast for it, just metaphysical, but what is it these days?
Starting point is 00:08:10 Rebecca writes, I want to tell you the German title, Schöne Schöne, is a pun or play on words. We use the phrase Schöne Schöne, I'm sorry for pronunciation guys, which means pretty shine or gleam for someone or something holding up a pretty facade when there's really nothing nice underneath literally or metaphorically. Rebecca also can't congratulate you on your pronunciation, by the way. Oh, that's good to know. And yes, thank you, Ravek, for a wonderful extended sentence that sums up isn't language fascinating, because it is and I love it. Isn't it though? And also a big thanks to Tamsin on the Discord who has sent us some cool suggestions for folkloric fun, accidental alliteration, and some lists that we can use to go hunting the green man in various churches
Starting point is 00:08:54 and things, which we're very excited about. Because I've been thinking I want to start like looking for green men everywhere, because that's my newest like symbology that I'm very interested in for all reasons. And that's just very much in Joanna's field of interest as well. So we're, we're thinking about going adventuring to all churches. Very creepy, very good. Maybe we'll bump into Black Shack along the way. Who needs? Baby.
Starting point is 00:09:16 I was just thinking we'd stop for a nice cup of tea and a scone, but fine. We'll both. It's fine. Oh, no, not scone. It's because we'll argue. Do you want to tell us what happened previously on making money? Certainly. Previously on making money.
Starting point is 00:09:29 Moist von Lippwig has shimmied the post office into functionality, which is, you know, great, obviously, but when you're hanging onto your life by your fingernails, having tried to break into your own office, you've got to reevaluate your career path. And if moist won't, veterinary will. The patrician is determined to get his money worth and whether he likes it or not, it looks like moist is going to make bank for the city. Sometimes you get two angels. Excellent. What happens now? What happens now, Joanna? A lot. Why did I make this section so chunky? So in Chapter 4, last week in the chronology of the book, not last week on the podcast,
Starting point is 00:10:09 Heter Thor visited the man who makes things and picked up a particular stygium ring and left with peppermint in the air. Also, Adora leaves her mind behind. Currently, moist is in the wrong black coach. Cosmo offers a canine purchase and a few lazy threats and moist disembarks to pop to the palace and interrupt a meeting. Veterinary sends moist to make money. At the bank, moist and Mr. Fussport signs some papers and Sakurisa gets moist in mouth running a mock as he announces he's ditching the gold. Moist gets a new sweet and the gladus narrowly avoids a scandal as desert islands, gold and signatures dance and moist finally makes money. Her Cosmo enjoys his new ring and the lavishes and their lawyers talk money. Cosmo remembers
Starting point is 00:10:50 something about Mr Benton, Pucci gets curious. In Chapter 5, moist goes down to the joke shop to test his new dollar and watches it spend up and down 10th Egg Street. He gets into the first cab and rapidly amps again after some unexpected Pucci, only to get back to the bank and knocked out by a back rub. As crowns clamour at the bank, moist offers interesting interest rates and everyone wants a bank note. There's a concerning man in black in the crowd, but Bent's busy fretting about the gold. Moist heads to teamer in spools and suggests setting up in the mint as the money-making begins. The last piece of the puzzle is, unfortunately, soon
Starting point is 00:11:20 to be hanged. Meanwhile, Mr. Bent gets a visitor. Cosmo wants moist out of the picture. In Chapter 6, moist pops into the Tanty and grabs a hold of Elswick Jenkins. After a brief wet weather escape, Elswick is safely delivered into the arms of the bank's underground Igor. Igor changes Elswick's mind as Krebins comes face to face with his old pal Albert Spangler. The arrival of Adora means a trip to see the wizard, and an expanding cabinet reveals old Omnium markings on ancient Gollum limbs. Help with translation is needed, which is a job for the Department of Postmortem Communications. In Chapter 7, Mr Fussbot has a time of it with Toffee.
Starting point is 00:11:56 Adora tells Moist about four deep-singing golden Gollums, now headed to Ankh-Morpork under the sea. In the not-necromancey department, Hicks summons Professor Fleed for some umnion translation. Meanwhile, in the counting house, the thing happens. Mr Bent has made a mistake. In Hubert's domain, there's something off in the air and Exorbit's lost his talents. At the time's back offices, Cribbins has found something good, and Moist makes it back to the bank to find Mr Bent missing and Miss Drapes in disarray. Well, I say. Goodness. Goodness.
Starting point is 00:12:25 Goodness me. So Helicopter and Lonecloth watch for Helicopter, Exorbit Clamps, Turnip, Gently Bouncing. I will not be taking questions at this time. Very well. And for Lonecloth, Poochie in Dishabil. Dishabil. Dishabil. I'm not saying that right, I don't care. I don't know, I had to look it up.
Starting point is 00:12:47 You're the French. I've got quite a few words today. You're the French one on the podcast, Francine. Buf. Quotes. Je ne comprends pas. Generally works. I don't know. Just read. I'm going to just read it a little bit. Si tu es là. Sorry, what? Quote, yeah. Mine is from Moist Musing on gods. Moist had heard that there were maybe millions of little gods floating around in the world, living under rocks, blown about like tumbleweed, clinging to the topmost branches of trees. They awaited the big moment, the lucky break that might end up with a temple and a priesthood
Starting point is 00:13:22 and worshipers to call your own. But they hadn't come here and it was easy to see why. Gods wanted belief, not rational thinking. Building the temple first was like giving a pair of wonderful shoes to a man with no legs. Building a temple didn't believe you believed in gods, it just meant you believed in architecture. And I like the resurgence of the shoes and the man with no legs after what Mr. Bent says in the first section. Oh yeah. Very good. Yes. When Adorabelle is telling Moist about the discovery of very ancient, very deep-down golems, how did he find out they were down there? Well, it's nowhere. The usual way. One of our golems heard the singing.
Starting point is 00:14:05 Imagine that. It's been underground for sixty thousand years. In the night under the world, in the pressure of the depths, in the crushing of the dark, a golem sang. There were no words. The song was older than words. It was older than tongues. It was the call of the common clay, and it carried for miles.
Starting point is 00:14:24 It travelled along fault lines, made crystals sing in harmony in dark, unmeasured caverns, followed rivers that never saw the sun, and out of the ground and up the legs of the Golem from the Golem Trust. He was pulling a wagon loaded with coal along the region's one road. When he arrived in Antmoleport, he told the Trust. That was what the Trust did. It found Golems. Such a good moment. It is. Practice likes a song that travels for many moons and many miles and the...
Starting point is 00:14:53 Actually, a concept I'm getting excited about visiting in the long earth. Oh yeah, that'll be fun. I can't wait to talk about that. So let's get characters then. We'll start with our leading man, Moist Fund Lipty. He's given him. He's now is he is now running the bank. Yeah, he's accepted it to nobody's surprise at all. Absolutely. Nobody's I like that he sort of starts with getting it cleaned up and says to Ben when you don't know what to do comb your hair and clean your shoes. It's kind of nice that he can because he couldn't really do that at the post office. There was a bit too much. There was and then it burnt down. And then it burnt down. Yeah. I like that as a little bit of
Starting point is 00:15:29 advice anyway, actually. It's general depression advice, isn't it? When you're absolutely stuck, just like at the very least, just try and brush your hair. Yeah. Pums and clothes. That might help a bit. Maybe. There's a nice sort of a callback to winter Smith, the description voiced from someone's granny. My granny says that if it's true, a man's got enough iron in his blood to make a nail that you've got enough brass in your neck to make a doorknob. No, thanks, man. She speaks her mind, does my granny?
Starting point is 00:15:58 For English as a second language listeners, you might not be familiar brass neck is saying someone's got brass neck is a bit like saying someone's got balls. Yeah. Yeah. They're overly confident. Yes. But yeah, the that that whole bit I liked actually the most fun, that big kind of going back to his roots of small traders and big that now now he's, you know, not being a shared. No, he's been very legitimate in his little street full of small traders and trying to get to like the the brass tacks of humanity.
Starting point is 00:16:30 Yeah, while also feel like he's feeling like he's willing and dealing and you know, still being very moistish. Yeah. But small scale stepdances, tapdances. He's as he's talking to at one point, he thinks to himself, my really a bastard or am I just really good at thinking like one is when he's about donating to charity but not too publicly. Loretta Yeah. People find that anyway. Gareth And I like, we don't get much like self-reflection or character growth for Moist and This One because he kind of did all that already in going post
Starting point is 00:16:59 all. So it's like to have the little moments whereas he's thinking about it. Loretta Yeah. You get, I think you get a bit more of the, the understandable aftershocks of, you know, quite how harsh veterinary was on him at the beginning, like he's getting, it's mentioned that he has like nightmares and flashbacks to being hanged, which obviously, yeah, which is like a good bit of character background, I think, to, to reiterate. Yeah, deepening to it. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:17:24 Um, and I like, you know, where you do get his in a monologue and he's actually thinking about what he's doing, he's thinking about the escape plans and the blackjack in his pocket and all of these things. And it's all so that he knows he doesn't have to stay. Yes. And that means he has to find reasons to stay. And it's very sweet that then Adora turns up. Yeah. Lovely timing. And then that Nari obviously is the kind of antagonist. He's kind of antagonizing him. Speaking of, you know, he's having the flashbacks to being hanged and stuff. When he goes to interrupt that meeting after getting out of the coach, I mean, it's a nice little bit of horror that he's taken into this hall of death masks by Veteran Ari. But he starts almost confronting Veteran Ari and we get a really rare tone switch where we actually
Starting point is 00:18:14 see Veteran Ari losing his patience, which isn't something we get much. No. He snaps, no Mr. Litwig, you signed up to die, snapped Veteran Ari, his voice suddenly as cold and deadly as a falling icicle. He does sound a bit frustrated throughout that Nora, I think. Yeah, more so than usual. I think he's a little concerned. I've said like he was actually taken aback by moist lack of interest in devices. Yeah. And most like no, I don't really think that at all that now is that really was because veterinary doesn't have many foils or people
Starting point is 00:18:46 to get to talk to. So just as like, moist doesn't really have anyone to open up to. So he ends up opening up to Vesanari about a door. I think Vesanari probably has his own element of I want someone to see how clever I'm fucking being. Yes, and expects that moist will engage in that with the devices and the artificers guild. Yeah. Yeah, vimes isn't quite it because although vimes is a bit of a foil, it's different subjects. And vimes is never going to be like, Oh,
Starting point is 00:19:10 clever devices and artists, those girls, he's going to be like, what crimes is this going to create? Yeah. And what paper is this going to create? Yeah. There's, I mean, there's some fun, best, best scenario moments when he's kind of winding up moist about the Owlswick hanging. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, I mean, there's some fun, vets, vets and Ari moments when he's kind of winding up moist about the Owlswick hanging. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a fun moment where he's sort of trying to get moist to eat something and vets and Ari leaned forward as if inviting moist to join a conspiracy and added, I believe the cook does kippers for the guards, very fortifying. And all of this all of him winding moist up in that scene is while he's very carefully
Starting point is 00:19:45 dissecting and eating just the white of a boiled egg. Very, very creepy. Very sinister. Oh, and a lovely bit of metaphor in the city bleeds, Mr. Litvig, and you are the clot I need. Oh yeah, that's a beautiful one. Another bit of British slang clot is a slang word for idiot, quite old fashioned, but... Double meaning, a pun or play on words.
Starting point is 00:20:10 Surely not. In our disc world. Speaking of metaphors actually. I always like to keep an eye on any weather metaphors around veterinary and there's a good moment when he's having the conversation outside with the Stygian ring with moist. There was a patch of pale gold among the billows like the yolk of an egg. Yeah, just doubling up on the egg. Yep. But very nice in the concept of the soup of the afternoon. Maybe it's an egg drop soup.
Starting point is 00:20:39 Oh, yeah. I liked the little bit of well building around weather actually mentioning that more crimes tended to happen on rainy nights now because rain washed away the smell and the welds couldn't track you. That's a nice bit of specifically angle for a quail building because on round world I think rainy nights, rain in general times to dampen crime, literally and metaphorically. You tear. The pew, not my words. ROP Waffles, who we learn has finally passed away in this and
Starting point is 00:21:07 Vesinario puts this down. I think we all suspected. I thought he might have done. But we can't let that go past without acknowledging our fallen soldier. No, and very sweet, did he pick out the white ones or whichever it was that Waffles didn't like? Yep. Well then Waffles, you've stank up the place for a good few years. Completely unfounded headcanon that Gaspoage pops to the grave every day and eats the dog biscuit. No, I like that. Let's have that. But yeah, Vesanari is catching on, although he doesn't
Starting point is 00:21:38 know the reason yet. Everything Cosmo Lavish is doing stash here to forth with the ring and the shoes and the yeah. It's gonna be a bit creepy, isn't it? Yeah. Why is someone doing this particular? Yeah. Yeah. So Cosmo. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, very, um, uh, the Duke from weird sisters vibes with the, with the ring and the building madness and madness around the pain and the floating above it and the the the gammy hand. Yes, specifically. I've read that and I was like, Oh, do you know what? I thought this was what happened. But at the same time, I thought I was mixing it up
Starting point is 00:22:16 with weird sisters. Because this is one of those books I haven't read that many times, making money, to be honest. Yeah. And so it's, I'm still having some nice surprises along the way. But yeah, the ring, I was like, it's too small, isn't it? No, no, no, no, I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of the dude, but no, I'm not having injured hands and madness connected to it is a running theme in Discworld. Yes. And an interesting one that's really well written here, I am going to throw in my blanket thought on
Starting point is 00:22:49 depictions of Cosmo and Pucci as fat that I'm not a big fan of the tone. Yeah, I feel like we've gone backwards on that a little. Yeah, and I'm not saying you can't have a fat villain and it's interesting with Cosmo to do the kind of physical different from veterinary in multiple ways, but there's a lot of like sneering tone in the depictions of it, like it's implying that their appearances are moral failing. And I think they've got enough moral failings. Yeah. So yes, that's my little run. And just take that as as read for the
Starting point is 00:23:15 rest of the book. I liked Cosmo. I like the Cosmo, although he is clearly very mad. Yes, does have and you get to see it showcased a level of calm and intelligence that perhaps most of his relatives don't. Yes. And you get to see it particularly when he deals with Poochian. I think that's easier because he knows her very well and because she is very, very, very her. Yeah. But I think even when he's dealing with the rest of them, if three too uneral. He doesn't
Starting point is 00:23:46 do badly. It just doesn't land well. Yeah, is there not receptive to the kind of calm? Yeah. If only he could do the eyebrow that would sort it all, I think. I love that he's had a device constructed that pulled at one eyebrow repeatedly by means of clockwork. Yeah. Maybe I should do that. Whenever he tries to raise an eyebrow. He's just looks
Starting point is 00:24:09 like he's having some kind of small seizure. That's what I don't like if I try and raise one eyebrow. I like this kind of villain character. He's so single-mindedly focused that he can't be objective about his own actions at all. Yes. I think it's a really fun kind of villain. I also just like a bit of the depth on the Assassin's Guild thing, like Moist Assumes, Assassin Tram and not an assassin probably had a note from his mother saying he was excused from stabbing. Yeah. And yet the follow up of Cosmo believes that the Assassin's Guild has become
Starting point is 00:24:39 too stylised and not murdery enough. Yeah. Yeah. He is a certain like genre of Pratchett villain, which is functional madman. Yes. He is functioning very well at the moment still day to day. But whenever you see him out of the public eye, he's just absolutely bonkers. Yeah. And you can feel that not raised eyebrow, but eyebrow twitching is just all the way pummelling under the, the twitching eyebrow is pummelling under the surface. Oh no.
Starting point is 00:25:16 And then, yeah, here to for, great name. Great name. Interesting choice of career path. I don't, well, he, he he never meant it to be like this. No, but I feel like he's there. You know, run with it a little much. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think this immediate struggling with the way of his actions
Starting point is 00:25:35 after the ring makers murdered, which is that he never meant it to be like this. He never meant for anyone to die. And then he threw up. Like I can not sympathize with the actions running away from him because he's a bit of a fucking idiot. But I think it's a really interesting character. Yeah, I think he's like low-grade dickhead. He wouldn't have been like evil without this. Yeah. I also quite like it as a, you know, he's bullshit his way into this position with Cosmo by carefully manipulating the truth and
Starting point is 00:26:06 getting these things. He's scamming Cosmo. It's a shit moist. And that was a horrible two words to put together. Litvig's name makes these kind of short phrases very dangerous. I can't just call him Litvig, though, because I feel like I'm a schoolteacher telling him off. Litvig. Yeah, Tesco Valley moist on Litvig. I can't just call him lip big though, because I feel like I'm a school teacher telling him off. Lip big. Yeah, Tesco Valley moist on lip big. That's better than shit moist and cranberry.
Starting point is 00:26:30 Oh yeah, yet another yet another flavor of villain. Yeah, Scary, shiny murderer. Scary. More reminiscent of the band sheath and anything else I'd say. Yeah, the henchmeny thing. I like this idea of when Cosmo didn't require a service, he sat in red books all day. That's upset here to fall. If a man were in a literate thug, things would in some way be better, more understandable.
Starting point is 00:26:55 Yes, this man is intelligent and chooses to be a murderous bastard. Which is much harder. Yeah. And then Pucci. And then Pucci. Oh, Pucci. I kind of love Pucci as a character. I just wild as a really good. Oh, she tried to make self esteem do the work of self
Starting point is 00:27:19 respect. Hmm. It's such a great description. Yeah. It's a lot of neat terms of phrases like that in this book, actually. Yeah. Some real fucking gems. But yeah, we could probably draw parallels to a lot of socialites, like over the centuries,
Starting point is 00:27:34 but she is just wonderfully aware and non-aware at the same time. And completely obnoxious. I love just a purely obnoxious character. Oh, yeah. I think it's a really fun thing to read. It's probably a very very thing to write. A table by herself, a voice like a sore encountering a nail with a slight additional touch of foghorn. And was always referred to as a society beauty. Yeah. What the hell is that? Demarred Pucci's massive quicitiveness was hampered by the
Starting point is 00:28:04 attention span of a kitten. I related in that moment. The leaping attention span conversation was just very funny to read. Yeah, it was. And especially like the different like information traveling at different speeds through her brain. So you can't you can't imagine she's forgotten what she's dropped for now. You gotta it must be difficult. imagine she's forgotten what she's dropped for now. It must be difficult. Yeah, it's sort of like playing 3D chess with an irate chimpanzee. And yes, and then the briefly the assorted lavishes, which as you pointed out sounds like a nice selection box, doesn't it? It does. I love this all assembled with lawyers in tow and this kind of returning
Starting point is 00:28:42 theme I love Cosmo would set out tables in a pattern that represented to the best of his knowledge the current state of the alliances and minor fratricidal wars that was a lot of shifting and scraping and threats of legal action before people settled down. Absolutely. My favourite minor lavish obviously is what's her name? Josephine. Josephine, yeah. Yeah, now I'm racing for Josephine. Yeah. Just for the description of her wearing a necklace of emeralds reflecting greenish light on her face. Yes. Very cool. More of this green and gold imagery. Very snaky. And then Cosmo's actually reaction to her just when he breaks trying to be smart from a minute and just goes, shut up, said Cosmo calmly.
Starting point is 00:29:25 Shut up. Yeah, I think there's something about it again. It's a different flavour of obnoxious tapoochee, but an obnoxious character is fun. An obnoxious character that can get under Cosmo's skin as he's doing his best veterinary. Yeah, yeah. Shut up. Shut up. Doing a bit.
Starting point is 00:29:42 Guys. Yeah. And I like the idea of them like Like, obviously, this whole thing is very Italian, not quite Italian crime family, but Italian, wealthy family that was pretty much the same thing a few centuries ago, like, you know, I mean, like, definitely hints of turned up to 11. And yeah, just absolutely I love the lawyer then jumping in. That's great. And then Mr. Bent. Oh, yeah, he's getting interesting.
Starting point is 00:30:11 He's having a day. So I can't remember if it was we actually saw this in the first section, but I definitely know to say that his first name is Malvolio. Yeah, which means it will or something, right? So yeah, it comes from Italian, it means it will. But more importantly, it's a character in 12th Night, the Shakespeare play. Which fun connection that there's a really good National Theatre live version of 12th Night in which Tamsin Greg plays Malvello. Tamsin Greg, who played Sakharissa Kripslock in the Going Pastel TV adaptation. Link all things together. Malvello is an interesting character. I'll talk about it a bit more next week, but the sort of summary is that he's very puritanical,
Starting point is 00:30:51 but because emotions and things, he ends up acting like the fool. Oh, okay. Nice. So, yeah, there's a very cool name choice for that. Do you know if he's Cosmo called in Matthew at one point? And then Malcolm. He just keeps having this whole conversation about how important you are to the family on never getting his name right.
Starting point is 00:31:09 Oh, mate. And what is he, what I like genuinely, I've read the third part of the book for this read through, I can't remember what the fucking twist is here, but with Cosmo, like remembering what his dad said, and like him, like keeping some stuff that is covered. And I love the kind of inbuilt clue that you only get if you know, just called the fact that he stays at Mrs. Cakes house. Yes. So there's something about it. Yeah. Something supernatural or just very, very odd.
Starting point is 00:31:37 But yeah, love it. And there's a particular one spot in the car for it. It's very nice, very nice little mystery in the middle of all of this enjoying it. And his small room at Mrs. Cakes is very much that sense of like being in a cupboard when I knew Switch is how he's described in the first section, which listeners appointed out was a reference to an 80s bank advert that neither of us have seen. But yeah, for some inexplicable reason. Why not? Oh, I'll try and find that.
Starting point is 00:32:04 Oh, I'll try and find that. One of my favourite lines in the book entirely, he made a razzmatazz sound like some esoteric perversion. Razzmatazz. I think it's written out phonetically in the book as razzmatazz. Razzmatazz, sir. But the way his breakdown, I mean obviously the breakdown kind of happens because he makes a mistake, but the way you see it building up is he really struggles with what moist is doing. He has this rant to, don't you understand, there must be something which
Starting point is 00:32:34 has a worth that goes beyond fashion and politics are worth that endures and have come into Zeta. I don't know what you want me to do. Yeah. I really feel for him in this section. Yeah. want me to do. Yeah, I really feel for him in this section. Yeah. And then he's like, in this middle of a moral crisis, when he's trying to do his maths. And what's really interesting, of course, is that we are getting the explanation at that point that he's not doing calculations, he just knows the
Starting point is 00:32:58 answer. And so it's not just that he makes a mistake in his calculations, something has gone wrong. Yes. Something has come on the core of him, it's not working properly. And that's obviously much scarier than even if you're usually very diligent making a mistake. Yeah. Um, and there was this horror, there's this sort of scary bit where he's having this inner turmoil, he's talking to himself as he's working in the counseling house.
Starting point is 00:33:23 Uh, it was this voice was a hated little part of himself. He'd beaten and starved and pumped back into his wardrobe for years. It wasn't the voice of his conscience. He was the voice of his conscience. It was the voice of the mask. I'm assuming by that it is not referring to the 90s Jim Carrey movie, also starring Cameron Diaz. I hope not, because that's a very specific voice that I don't think would suit Mr. Mav a very specific voice that I don't think would suit Mr Mavolia Bent. No, I don't think it would. Then we get a sweet little, of course, Miss Drapes running after her, running after him as soon as possible. I know Miss Drapes. And she still loves him. She had a little hysteric in the loo herself.
Starting point is 00:34:03 Well, who's among us? Us? Who's the man? Us here to fall? Have not. Why am I here to fall? Huh? Or was that just a general? I don't know. Yes, yes.
Starting point is 00:34:14 It was a general here to fall. Yeah. I started to call me here to fall. Yes. No, I was just just the word here to fall fit. And obviously it was in my brain for other reasons. I don't know. I'd rather be a heart.
Starting point is 00:34:24 And by that, I mean the character, not you. Dearheart Adorabelle. Dearheart, I love that little term in Dearman's actually, that should come back. Yeah, I do quite like Dearheart. I like that she has this conversation about 50 foot high killer golems with moisture. Of course, you would think of that.
Starting point is 00:34:42 Yes. And it's very very gendered. It's men have to think of that. And it's very gendered. It's men have to think of 50 foot high killer golems. Golems, sorry. Before enough before somebody else does. Which is Leonardo, Leonard of Quermes argument. Yes. Of course with his.
Starting point is 00:34:58 And there's a nice moment. Moist is kind of jealous that Professor Fleed's flirting with her and she's not, I mean, she can't stab her heel through his foot because she can but as he's not corporeal, it probably won't have much of an effect. And he's sort of a little bit jealous and she turns around to him and says, you flirt with people all the time, you flirt with the whole world, that's what makes it interesting. Yes, yes. Yes, you can't be moist onfig and get annoyed that your girlfriend is flirting
Starting point is 00:35:29 with somebody else. That's not how that works at all. Loretta No, absolutely not. Loretta By the way, it's kind of unrendered pork fun. Loretta Oh, lovely. Loretta Yeah. Yeah. So all these, every name in this seems to have a meaning, so I've just been looking them up as I go along. But yeah,orabelle's people skills, I would say shining through in this one. She's been very well with the dwarves. She's done very well with the necromancer. No, sorry. The what was it?
Starting point is 00:35:54 Department of Department of Postmortem Communications did very well there. Didn't quite fall out with the librarian bird. Well, that's because she's very gallant and throws things at moist instead. Well, yes. A gallant banana. Oh, honestly, you can't open doors for women. You can't throw bananas at their husbands instead of them. You can't do anything these days.
Starting point is 00:36:21 Speaking of women, saccharous a cribslock. Speaking of women, Sakurisa Kripslock. Speaking of women, here's another one. Haven't we moved on? Sakurisa Kripslock. Lovely bit of character in this one actually. I feel like she's got more character in this than she did in The Truth. Yeah, I really love her and Moist is a platonic pairing. Yeah, absolutely. I can see him properly, properly given it like,
Starting point is 00:36:49 obnoxiously journalistic stuff. And I love it. And he's fully aware and he knows how to play it. But also like his, as I said, his mouth runs away with him. I can kind of see him when a friend needs to work something out, like kind of setting up an interview, because he knows once he gets in front of the busy pencil, he's sometimes manages to start putting it all together. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, because that was Clip, Fripp's lock obviously knows the trick. She like puts away the pencil, puts away the notebook. I'm always like, I know your game. I'm not going full for it. She's like, you were obviously you were eventually. So I'm just going to just going to hang around on the questions until I trigger the Fripp wire
Starting point is 00:37:24 that makes you start dancing for me. my front page please, thank you. Yeah, she asked him this is gonna be fun, isn't it? Which is a really nice like she knows what the vibe is with Moise now and she knows how to make this work and make this run. There's also just the lovely like name, lovely line. Bark circumspectly at the nice lady with the busy pencil, Mr Fussbot. And then William DeWerd, who we only see, sort of, we don't see, but he's there. Right. We glimps him through a rolling fog of polysyllables.
Starting point is 00:37:58 Excellent sentence. The times believe moys from lippie to be on the hole and all things considered taking the long to your one thing with another, probably the right man in the right job. Moise thinks of it, we're probably the same age, but he wrote editorials that suggested his bum was stuffed with tweed. Yeah. And wrote as though he was chipping the letters into a stone, which of course he used to be an engraver. So, not far off. And then who else
Starting point is 00:38:27 we got? Oh, Harry King. Harry King's here. Harry King is here in all his miasmic glory. Beautiful. I really love that, as in the truth, Harry King kind of has the real social cachet to make an idea work and catch on. harry king kind of has the real social cache to make an idea work and catch on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you go to harry king. Except this is such a good idea that you didn't have to go to harry king harry king went to you. Yeah. And he's willing to do a deal with anybody who is not going to be like the. What's the establishment basically? Yeah, not be fuckers who who won't work with him on this that of the other who won't
Starting point is 00:39:08 Let his wife into the functions who won't speak to him and properly or do proper handshakes. Yeah With the truth there was this like shared underdog feeling between William DeWer and he talked about someone trying to take my toshirun And yeah here it's less like a fellow underdog thing with moisture so much as you're another person who's had to fight to get to where you are, even if you haven't done it quite the same way I have. Loretta And they're very much new guard, aren't they? Both of them. They both got the kind of influence that a guild leader would have without being in the guilds. Gaby Yes. And they're dealing with a family like the lavishers this old money. Yeah, must be very satisfying for Harry King actually to not only get what he needs for
Starting point is 00:39:51 the business but do so while knowing he's cocking a snook at the lavishers. Yes. Well, I'm sure he wouldn't put it that way. Harry King's never cocked a snook in his life. And then Owlswick Jenkins who gets renamed Exorbit Clamp. Which I didn't look into actually. I very briefly didn't really find much, but I could be wrong. So dear listeners, do tell us.
Starting point is 00:40:14 He's really interesting. Like when Moise first gets reminded of him, he recalled the watery fright and eyes and the expression of helpless puzzlement. And I think it's really fascinating when it goes deeper into into Elnswick and why he's so good at what he does, but why he also did what he did to get himself almost hanged. He wasn't in any proper sense a madman. He was by certain standards very sane, faced with a world too busy, complex and incomprehensible to deal with. He'd reduced it to a small bubble just big enough to hold him in his palette. It was nice and quiet in there.
Starting point is 00:40:50 Yeah, it's almost like some events neurosis taken to extreme, isn't it? That's yeah, I'm just going to block everything out by being very good at this one thing. And very neatly shut away. He's fault, he's folded away into his cupboard, he doesn't come out for the day. No. And he's found himself almost two folded away to sometimes understand things that maybe he needs to understand, like forgery is illegal. Yeah. The Discworld fandom website, by the way, said that Exorbit seems to suggest the
Starting point is 00:41:20 Exorbit-wise operation used in computer programming to test certain conditions that Cetary probably would have used on the Olsenclair stuff. Oh, cool. So there we go. IT reference. Oh, that's nice. We're very ATs in our references today that we're not going to go. But yes, when the nastiness of his brain goes into the turnip, the art stops working and moist as to sort of gently explain to
Starting point is 00:41:46 we go that all those nasty little details or what made him him. Yes, we've got a speed run evolution of the morality around the bottom. Yeah, which is nice to get it out of the way quickly, isn't it? Yeah, it's horrible. It's like, on one hand, obviously, you want him to be happy on the other hand. Well, well, it's a bit of an odd one, isn't it? Because moist wants him to be unhappy again, so we can make art. But he can sell it to Eagle and the rest of us by saying he's not him anymore. Is
Starting point is 00:42:19 he? Yeah. Hi. But I feel like there's some, there's probably some sympathy there as well. Like, or Ellswick is one of the only people who can relate to moist on the level of what it's like to nearly be hanged. Yeah. Yeah. I like that he's got enough women vigoring themselves to kick moist in the nuts and runaway. Yes.
Starting point is 00:42:37 I support that. Not enough common sense to not go straight home back to his paints. Yeah. But he tried. And his little, his little like, holding his paint to his mouth and going, actually, I'm out of Agathean White, it is most vexing. Well, I imagine it would be quite vexing. Cribbins. Cribbins. Cribbins, who turns up in his Omnion. Yes, I'm a pleasant man. I kind of feel a little bit like Kribbins is one B-plot too many and arguably could be
Starting point is 00:43:09 removed from the book without the book really losing a lot. Not that I don't like the character, I think it's clever, I think it's funny, I like the conversation he has with Baranese, especially the God of the Month club thing. But yeah, I think it, and I'm thinking about this because obviously this is one of the longer disc world books. I think this might even clock in at the longest. I'm not actually going to say compare page numbers and shit because life is short. Yeah, I, I don't love him as a subplot. But I'm not sure how much of that is just because my visceral dislike of reading about his teeth.
Starting point is 00:43:41 Also that also that and it's very good writing. It is too good. I don't like it. It makes me very uncomfortable. You have Amesbury and Peggy. That's the one time I'm going to make this joke. Sorry. He's also arguably doesn't need to be there. It's sort of there for the solving the plot hole of what if someone tried to poison the dog and then that's... You don't need every... No, every minor character needs to be anywhere.
Starting point is 00:44:09 No. But just as a contrast to Crimmins, like I have a lot more fun with Ainsbury and Peggy and that as a silly not even B plot just there as a thing. And the garlic problem, which is a ridiculous problem and I love it and it's very funny. Yes. And how delighted Ainsbury is that Adore Bell's love of whatever the fuck you're feeding her. Various bits of animal that. I didn't look into whatever the one was she had like colapses. Yeah. Do you know what they're not?
Starting point is 00:44:35 I didn't look up colapses. I don't want to. I don't want to ruin it for Adore Bell. And I say this is someone who eats, you know, I firmly believe that if you're going to eat an animal, you should eat all the bits and. I don't because they taste very bad. I don't eat animals anymore anyway. But when I did, I did not feel the need to eat the bits that had awful taste and texture. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't eat the, but like I'll eat stuff like haggis, which is
Starting point is 00:44:58 Yeah, oh yeah, that's fine. You made it taste nice and not have gross texture anymore. Whatever. Yeah. I did try and translate the Kwamean to English via Google. Oh, yeah. So what did you get? Name of a Kettle. Why am I boldly laughed at by the gods? Yeah. Yeah. Same. Yeah. I expect there's something slightly more sensible in that. There might not be. That could be it. And I'm not going to look for anything further. And I might start shouting name of a kettle. Name of a kettle. Good way to not swear. Name of a kettle.
Starting point is 00:45:32 Hang on. What are some brand names of kettles? This is very tragic. I don't know the brand names of kettles. There's like, there's definitely some that like, like, okay, no, I'm doing research live on the podcast again. No, I'm stopping. Don't worry about it. GLaDOS. I want to talk about her as a character.
Starting point is 00:45:51 So she's gotten very into etiquette after reading Lady Deidre Wacken's Prudent Advice for a Young Woman. Absolutely. Hence, you know, we can't be in a bedroom together. We're unmarried with moist. And then I started thinking about her and I was like, of course she is firmly believing this is actually good stuff. She's reading, she's a Golem. Words are so powerful to her. Yeah, exactly. And I think-
Starting point is 00:46:16 And I'd write it down unless it was truth. Exactly. And I think it's a really wonderful bit of storytelling. Yeah. Yeah, she's been given new instructions. Yes. Also, they are just big, cuddly babies really, it's just very funny when put into golem capitals. Who told you that? One of the count girls. And therefore it must be true. Of course. And Adora Bell's kind of lack of jealousy when she thought it was a human and then utter confusion and anger where she realised it was a golem. And Moise like almost disappointment at the lack of jealousy?
Starting point is 00:46:51 Can I not have a little bit of jealousy as a triad? Oh go on, feel a bit threatened. Feel, come on, let's pretend I'm not like the world's biggest wife guy for three minutes, come on. It's possibly my favourite thing about Moise character is just how much of a wife guy he is. Yeah. Quick for you when I mentioned Dibbler, who wants a loan for a new Barrow. And I love that Moise immediately dreams much bigger than Dibbler can imagine. Moise goes franchised to play Barrow. Barrow.
Starting point is 00:47:20 Yeah. Look, there's one for $15. You can't miss this opportunity. And Claude Maximilian Overton transpire did. I think this is the first time we get this full name. What else? The first time we get this full name, I wouldn't be surprised if we've heard a different one before. But yes. We'll see MOT. Obviously, only stands for that and doesn't stand for cut me own throat in any way shape or form. Well, no, absolutely not. That would be bizarre.
Starting point is 00:47:48 Yes. And then let's talk locations. Yeah, back to Bofo. We go to Bofo Novelty in Joke Shop, proprietor Jay Proust. Who is, as it turns out, willing to play along with Moist's nonsense, thus making him the bigger character than he might have been. Loretta Yes. It also just delights me that we get the physical boffo shop after so much
Starting point is 00:48:11 boffo in Winter Smith. Gaby Oh, God, yeah. Loretta That's another nice, like, oh, I've got this detail in the world. That means I can put it there too. That's a fun thing. And I like this idea as well of just Tent Egg Street, this small traders street where people care very much about what they're doing in these very small ways. Yeah. These were men who saw far more farlings than dollars was another one I had noted down as
Starting point is 00:48:35 very neat turnip rays. And then I put these bits in locations as well, but we have the cabinets of curiosity. Yeah. I fucking love cabinet curiosity. Obviously, this one's a bit more dimensional than the one we used to. But anyone who's not familiar, by the way, excellent rabbit hole folder. So cabinets of curiosities like collections of esoteric objects that are held by mainly by aristocrats, very popular 1600s 1700s, a cabinet used to mean room, which
Starting point is 00:49:03 is why this makes a bit more sense. But yeah, it's like tritism, natural history, and archaeology, and exploration. So this cabinet of curiosity is just like that taken up to the absolute max, obviously, because any more dimensions would be silly. A classic bag of holding, but with end mounts where the end is the number of items in an 11 dimensional universe, which are not currently alive, not pink and can fit into a cubicle drawer 14.14 inches on the side, divided by P. I think that's what I said, yeah.
Starting point is 00:49:29 And bag of holding is a D&D term as well. So that's a nice extra level of nerd in there. The wrong sort of question thing. That's very science of this world. Is that science or discord? Yeah, I think it ties in with like the lies to children theme that runs through science. I feel like it's from one of the proper discord books where I know that is the right kind of question or that is the right question. I'll have to look into that then. Okay, cool. And yeah, brief, you know, with the
Starting point is 00:50:00 cameos, we've got the chair of indefinite studies for a sins and ponder Stevens for his sins. What sins are those? I just say it for something to say. We like we like the honesty. I like honesty. I volunteer. The ponder has somehow got a reputation outside of the university for being the only one who does any work.
Starting point is 00:50:21 Yes, which he wouldn't like perpetuated in front of the others, even if it's obviously true. Yeah, this is a very, no, we all work equally very hard. Obviously me. I got whispering stuff the mic can't pick up on our completely audio format. That's really good Joanna. And then a little further down the corridor of the university. The Department of Postmortem Communications mined the squid. Which definitely didn't used to be the Necromancy Department, no matter what's underneath that flaking paint. Can we just, can we all play nicely and stop looking at that? Thank you.
Starting point is 00:50:56 I love the constant, no it's not Necromancy jokes, while also having to do all the very ritualistic Necromancy stuff because that's what Fleed expects. Yeah, absolutely. And the sort of 10ccs of mouse blood type jokes that refer back to the rise of Ashkent. This is clearly just getting scooting through a loophole in Vettnari's dislike of necromancy, I guess. Yeah. One of the lines in this that made me full on like out loud belly laugh when I first read it. Did you see Tis Pity? She's an instructor in unarmed combat.
Starting point is 00:51:30 Oh, go on. No, I just thought it was really funny, like as a play name. Oh, good. I figured it was a reference that I didn't get. Well, it's a Shakespearean sort of title, but like, it would be like Tis Pity. She's a shrew, not Tis Pity, she's a... I think there is an actual play that's a Tis Pity, she's something that's not Shakespeare, and I'm forgetting what it is, and I'm sure a listener can tell me if I'm getting something wrong there. But also, I just like the kind of insufferable amdram, and we're just trying
Starting point is 00:52:00 to get out the, oh, and the, which night did she go? Because there's always that one night where something really funny happens. But he knows not to push it. Hi, I've remembered the wrong kind of right kind of question that's thud when Vimes is talking to the priest dwarf. Oh, how clever. Yeah. There we go. Excellent. Right, so little bits we liked.
Starting point is 00:52:22 Yes. Another hat. Another hat. We like our hats, our meaningful hats. Now we have another. We have a faded black top hat. There's the item of station for the chairman of the Royal Bank, which I quite like on its own, but Moisturize needs to be glittery. And I suppose Moistvondit Vig knows what he likes. I think I think he could have pulled it off with a kind of faded glamour style, but and that doesn't dazzle does it? No, so he buys some glitter and some glue and covers the hat and glitter. I like that
Starting point is 00:52:51 he does it himself. He doesn't go and have a gold top hat made. He makes his top hat gold. Yeah, yeah. But the kind of handy glue that has the brush on the inside of the pot. Yes. Lovely little detail. That really struck a core memory in me. Yeah. Also genius that I am, I clocked the gold hat thing and was like, oh yeah, and there's
Starting point is 00:53:09 a thing about gold hats in the Great Gatsby and went and looked it up and found the thing and then realised I already talked about all of this in going post-al. Anyway, we like a hat and now we have another. And now we have another. So Moise makes the mistake of getting into the first cab. Yes. This is the Pucci in Disabela bit. But we get a really good sudden point of view switch that I really love. Moise gets into the cab and then it switches to Colin and Nobby.
Starting point is 00:53:39 And kind of commentating and kind of saying, now you see that was good. As he leaps out the other side of the car. And it's a fun. It's the camera. It's a very filmic moment as it switches, like point of view. But it's also a really nice one to quickly deliver the temperature of the city is this whole thing that's going on with Novi and his lack of takers for a book
Starting point is 00:53:59 on this, because everyone has assumed moist is going to win. Yeah, yeah. It's a nice call back to going postal and exactly. exactly. Thank goodness the book's on any more though. Also, just live calling and I'll be just watching it happen. This is fine. We're not going to interrupt this. Angle to fractal. Fractal angles. That is all. No, just concepts that moist trying to cover his house basically, and saying he'd hoped he'd covered all the angles, but angles were what did they call it? It's done by Electric University. I guess angles were fractal. Each one was small, full of smaller
Starting point is 00:54:36 angles. You couldn't cover them all, which I like very much. These bite articles, contingency, plans are never universal, especially not if you're doing weird shit like creeping around a bank and breaking people out of jail. And which leads me nicely to what I was going to say before that I read something the other day and I haven't had a chance to follow up and read more about this yet but apparently looking at fractals is actually quite good for your mental health. It scratches an itch in your brain, which is why looking at leafless trees in winter against the skyline when it's sort of black and sun setting is something satisfying about that. And it's something to do with the fact that it's fractals, these fractal twigs spiraling off the
Starting point is 00:55:20 branches. So I'm going to jump down right about right at hold at some point. Yeah. All right, no, I can't think about this too much now. Okay. So yeah, sneaking past guards in a dark bank. Yeah. This is when moisture's sneaking out of the bank the second time. The floors of the bank all opened onto the main hall, which like the one in the post office went from ground floor to roof. Sometimes, depending on the layout, a guard on a floor above could see the floor below. Sometimes the guards walked over on carpeted marble. Sometimes on the upper floors, they crossed patches of fine tiling which rang like a bell. And I love this because it's really video game-ish. It is, yeah.
Starting point is 00:55:56 It's so video game-ish and it's stealth stuff, but particularly there's a game series that Pratchett really loved called Thief. Oh, yeah. And there's a really lovely Guardian Oscar I'll link to, which talks about how much Pratchett loved this game and was a really active participant in the forums. Yeah, we talked about that in the video game special we did. Yeah. Yeah. And a quote from the art school. The Thief moment was me dreamily roping my way from beam to beam across that big hall in the bank while below me the guards patrolled. No other game has offered that. So yeah, I feel like that was meant to be
Starting point is 00:56:28 a really direct nod to these games that he loved and I'm happy. We're going to have to look it up now. I don't know if he's ever spoken on whether it was a direct reference, but it feels like no, I mean, like the game. Oh, yeah. So yeah, one of the biggest stuff. Historical money. I just thought I'd have a quick look at the like history of paper money, which as I think probably everybody knows China had the first paper money all the way back in the seventh century, which was then issued and guaranteed by Kublai Khan by that point, in admiring tones in his interestingly titled chapter, how the great Khan causes the bark of trees made into something like paper to pass for money all over his country. Oh, and that's because the book says something about the Actaian Empire using something like paper money.
Starting point is 00:57:23 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So China was like, by far, the outlist for using it centuries ahead of everybody else. And then kind of by the 11th, 12th century, there were kind of a lot of proto checks and notes all over the world. Say for instance, pilgrims would deposit their valuables with the Knights Templar before heading off to the Holy Land. They'd get a note with the value and then they could redeem that for funds in the Holy Land. So you didn't have to carry treasure with you, I guess, and risk being mugged or, you know, the proper word for that. Highwayman, you know what I mean, banditred. There were less official version, but then eventually the more official version was this thing called the split tally stick, which I think could also be considered part of the ancestry. So in
Starting point is 00:58:09 medieval Europe, which was like chronically short on coin, a stick, you could get a stick often a hazel stick, like squared off, you'd market with a bunch of notches in certain configurations that meant different things, and then split it lengthwise, thus ensuring both sides had a matching series notches. Obviously, it would only then fit back together with the other one. If one person tried to unilaterally change the value of it, it wouldn't match up with the notch on the other side. So it's like quite clever, but simple way
Starting point is 00:58:36 of doing things. And they became more complex and there were various systems. And they were actually still used in rural Switzerland in the 20th century. Oh, wow. In some parts. Yeah. Which I thought was cool. Tally stick. I will link to that because that's its own fun little thing. And then so kind of kind of like in Angkor Pork and as usual Angkor Pork speed running through it. But paper money in Europe was preceded by promissory notes, which are written orders to pay a certain person. And then later, just the bearer, the amount written on it. And so you could also see those as ancestors to checks as well as pay for money kind of common ancestor fronting off.
Starting point is 00:59:13 And then in the 17th century, Goldsmith bankers, which I hadn't heard of before, but it was basically Goldsmiths whose lines of work eventually evolved to include finance stuff like loans and all that. Of London started giving out receipts payable to the bearer, not the depositor. That's attaching the goldsmith's reputation to value of the note, not the account holder's reputation. Right. And he was either, yeah, the value being pegged to an establishment. And this time period also kind of saw the shift in the perception of money, as we see with moist speeches. And money could now be seen as reflection of supply
Starting point is 00:59:49 and demand rather than a physical supply of bullion. As the economist Nicholas Barbon wrote, money was an imaginary value made by a law for convenience of exchange. And then the Bank of England was the first kind of issue permanent banknotes, I think is the word. So once it'd be used again, they were handwritten for a while, and then they were printed, but required the name of the payee and the cashier's signature. And they were finally fully printed in 1855. And the whole rabbit hole, I didn't probably go down, but I might do for next week, because all the like counter-fitting staff and
Starting point is 01:00:22 the kind of arms race for the counterfeitable. Yeah, that's cool. So anyway, the yeah, the this whole like shift in the concept of what money meant like the public eye as well as the finances is, is kind of what moisters against speedrunning, isn't it? Very much speedrunning or trying to side note, I realised I haven't looked closely at some physical money for quite a while because I don't use physical money very often, but I had a five handy. And it does say, I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of five pounds on it. It's just nice.
Starting point is 01:00:58 Yeah. Provided the bearer never asks for five pounds. Fack it. But yeah, seeing this stuff catch on and watching Mojgan was trying to speedrun this. I mean, there's something I talk about so much in this, I love the world building and the way we get to see it expand. But it's nice to look back on the previous stuff. So throughout this book, you kind of, you see these things that have caught on, I know in some places very quickly, signed across a stamp becoming a thing, which even Cosmo
Starting point is 01:01:25 was doing, it's become that commonplace. And the explanation is sort of this, because it makes it legal, see? Yeah. Which, yeah, why not? Just because it does. But my whole idea is that the city can be its own standard. Yeah. Because it's rich enough. That requires a faith in the city that you just don't isn't present in earlier books. Angkor Pork is much more of a lawless wasteland. And it's not
Starting point is 01:01:50 just the rise of the watch, it's the whole industrial revolution that's slowly taking place in it. It's the literal civilisation of the city that allows it to become what's the line the city says in exchange for that gold, you will have all these things. The city is the magician, the alchemist in reverse. It turns worthless gold into everything. Don't you love depending on the protagonist, you get all these different metaphors for the city. So we've talked about four, haven't we, the various time periods would have different metaphors for the brain and things like that. But you get the same with them all pork is
Starting point is 01:02:23 in for moist, you get it in this alchemist, like turning stuff into gold, whatever. We've also seen it as a clock, working like a clock, we've seen it as like a mechanism, we've seen it as all kinds of things. Upturned out here. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Starting point is 01:02:38 Pile of shit probably from Vimes. Indially possible. Well, you have- I love this one in particular though, that was a nice one. In Guards, Guards, Vimes thinks of the city as a woman, a horrible woman that's done him wrong. Yeah. Not that you fissure.
Starting point is 01:02:54 Yeah. Vimes in Guards, Guards is just sad ex-boyfriend. Yeah. I suppose he's quite eloquent for somebody literally in a gutter. Very true. So we've seen we see things like stamp collecting catch on, which is very fun because moist like marvels at how ridiculous this stamp collecting thing. But he's keeping some of the flawed ones that people are really into for a rainy day. He thinks it's ridiculous. It doesn't mean he's not going to be a part of it. Oh, do you know what the name is for the studying collection of paper money?
Starting point is 01:03:25 Oh, no. Notophily, or notophily, something like that. It's like a subtype of numist... Oh, no, numismatics, which like all types of money. Yeah. Nice. So, like notophile. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:03:39 Exactly. Nice. And I mentioned Terry King earlier, the way his social cash out has this incredible power. And he legitimizes the banking by very showily depositing quite a lot of money and then asking for quite a large loan. And it's a nice, you know, I keep jumping back to the truth in these comparisons because I think it's a fun point to compare to. He kind of is okay with the paper money thing, because Timur and Spools get their paper from him. And that paper was a source of contention in the truth who has the access to it,
Starting point is 01:04:15 who can have it and therefore get their endeavor off the ground. And here it's not competition, it's just Harry profiting off paper money. And that's a really fine type of paper, isn't it? Like, Harry's making some, some pretty paper. He's making some pretty paper. I guess the comparison in going postal is when Ben Ari sends a letter instead of a clocks to what was it, Uphold or whatever it was, Daniel or maybe?
Starting point is 01:04:40 Yes. And he literally just obviously can't do that with the bank says this kind of underlying always the government trying to take over the bank, type thing. Yeah. Whereas I'm going postal. It is the government shows and he's going to show his face by sending a letter as the petition. Government, my old travels free, obviously.
Starting point is 01:04:59 And there's also just little details. There's things like the whole needing to get Alzwick Jenkins out of prison and having to go about it the same way, the habeas corpus stuff. There needs to be dockets for prisoners and the need for a paper trail. That's something you see vimes almost establishing in night watch or at least really doubling down on. Yeah, who habeas this corpus? Yes, and it's become so much part of the fabric that it's a joke between these prison guards. Yeah, yeah, even the shitty prison guard who by the way, why is she still working there? Even the shittiest prison guard is like, obviously not going to skimp on the paperwork or not look at the watermark or whatever.
Starting point is 01:05:34 That bit gets done properly. But then you have things like the golems catching on and being forced against. There are protests in the city about it. Which is a really interesting not subplot even, what kind of a subplot, the idea of, you know, the protests against the Industrial Revolution, this is the against the various types of mechanism that, you know, did ruin people's eyes.
Starting point is 01:05:54 And the thing is, it seems like this part of the inevitable progress and this that and the other. And, you know, we could draw some insufferable comparisons to today only insufferable because you can read about it wherever you want. But yeah, like obviously the Golems are sentient and whatever, but at the same time you can see the other people's point that their weight is being driven down by these beings who will, who can and will work 24 hours a day for fuck all.
Starting point is 01:06:22 Yeah. And it means then there's no response of new jobs being formed by it yet. Yes. Yes. And I think Benari's very aware of all of this. And that's rather than just saying, right, quotas have to hire X amount of humans or something, it's looking at undertaking, which is a much bigger picture. Mm-hmm. And so then when you get the pay for money, you get to actually see this catching on in
Starting point is 01:06:44 action as opposed to the well-building stuff where you're seeing things that have caught on, which is why I really love the 10th Egg Street as being the place where this first dollar gets spent and we watch it spent. And so he gives it to to Proust at Boffo's and then Bruce takes it to buy some tobacco and and it goes up and down and he's giving people other dollars is a good effort for doing this one. Yeah, like a tiny little vator test. Yeah, but we have that conversation in the first part between Ben and Mr. Ben and Moist, not Benton and Mr. Moist. About a dollar.
Starting point is 01:07:17 Benton Moist is the most horribly named duo, sorry. About a dollar becoming all sorts of things but remaining a dollar which moist kind of fought against. You know, at least with a potato you can plant a potato. Very rinse when coded, right? By the way. Yeah, all the stuff about those islands and prefer a potato. I mean, I would pick potatoes over gold. Of course. I can't wait to eat some potatoes.
Starting point is 01:07:42 And you like a nice bit of jewellery. I do like a nice bit of jewellery, but I really... Nothing beats potato. You are right. You've got potato. You do need your potato. If we take anything away from Desquale, I hope it's that. Yeah. I think it will be potatoes that we take to Desquale. And I think that's what Sir Terry would have wanted. But yes, we see this in action. We see a dollar become all sorts of things and remain a dollar in the
Starting point is 01:08:06 grow line, a whole new series of money were growing here like mushrooms in the dark and based on bullshit. And it's, it's fun and it's electric, you're watching something that we know happened in the real world happen here and catch on and you can see people almost grabbing the idea and then you get that last studying appointment that they still want the gold to be there. Yes. Yeah. And yeah, you get it. It keeps banks honest, said Mr. Polforth, in that tone of plonking certainty that is the hallmark of that most knowledgeable of beings, the man in the pub. Just goes to show. It just is the same very much the same flavor of person as William DeWords housemate.
Starting point is 01:08:51 Yeah, the table, the one who becomes the reader of the newspaper. Yeah. Stands to reason. Yes, went to the school of my while my dad says. Yeah, I think there's something really wonderful in this book about getting to watch something catch. Yeah, absolutely. And like moists, oh very bad paraphrasing here but saying that you know people don't like change but if you make a change fast enough they just go from one normal thing to the next normal thing and it's fine. But he's doing it in such a different shape to how he
Starting point is 01:09:22 did it in going postal. In going postal he made the change fast enough by doing everything at once. Yeah. Yeah. It was nothing, nothing, nothing right where a post office. Yes. Whereas in this, it's one small thing. It's one dollar bill. But.
Starting point is 01:09:35 But. And that's for next week. But before we go to next week, Francine, have you got an obscure reference video for me? I have. And I've done what I say I try not to do, but I can resist this time, which is take a name meaning for my obscure reference video. And this is Ms Tarantella Lavish, who I can't even remember what she said if she said anything. But was she the one you mentioned poisoning? Oh, could have been. That sounds all right, which would make sense in this context, actually. Yeah. So incredible etymology of history, by the
Starting point is 01:10:05 word tarantula. So in the Italian province of Taranto, the bite of a locally common type of spider, which is named tarantula after the region, was popularly believed to be highly venomous and lead to a hysterical condition known as Tarantism. And this is the kind of dancing mania. And I think we've talked about this before. But it's a specifically regional variation on the hysterical dancing, whatever. In this case, characteristic of Southern Italy, which probably Wikipedia hopefully says
Starting point is 01:10:41 had little to do with spider bites. The Tarantella dance supposedly evolved for a therapy for tarantism. So Francesco Cancelieri, Cancelieri maybe, wrote in his apparently extensive treaties on this entire subject, which kind of want to get my hands on. When one is in the hold of this ill wished beast, one has 100 different feelings at a time, one cries, dances, vomits, trembles, laughs, pales, cries, faints, and one will suffer great pain. And finally, after a few days, if unaided, you die. I mean, that's just a Wednesday morning for me.
Starting point is 01:11:20 Yeah, sweat and anti notes relieve the sick, but the sovereign and the only remedy is music. And he goes on to describe like some really specific observations of this illness, which he says typically afflicts like peasants and makes them indolent on hot summer days. And yeah, the only way the only way to cure it is by this like insane dancing. And I'm not really sure where it where it differentiated from like the dancing was the melody and the dancing was the cure. Yeah, there are two threads here. I don't
Starting point is 01:11:57 seem to I can't seem to separate them properly. But they used to be these organized like manic dances like in churches and things like that. So, and this is just wildly speculating at you, but was it a case of almost preventative rather than cure? If we let everyone go and manically dance for a bit, then they won't randomly manically dance. Maybe, yeah. I mean, I need to read something proper on this instead of like a few separate little articles. I highly recommend this is have a bit of a manic dance. Yeah, preventative manic dance. Yeah, as mad.
Starting point is 01:12:36 But also just as like this probably. Didn't happen, but John Crumpton proposed the ancient Fakkanalian rights that have been suppressed by the Roman Senate in 186 went underground. And this would be the manic dancing reappearing under the guy's emergency therapy for bite victims. But this is not substantiated by like it. Random theory. I love it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm not really sure whether it started as cure or starters as a name for this dance. I'm not sure when it flipped if indeed it did. And it's all just very cool. And apparently nothing to do with the spider. Amazing. I have now got a tarantula by pendulum stuck in my head. Oh, nice.
Starting point is 01:13:21 Just get some actually might go and dance a tarantula to tarantula. Do it. I'm stuck in my head. Oh, nice. Just get song. Actually, I think I might go and dance a Tarantella to Torrentula. Do it. That's what they would have wanted. By them, I mean the Back and Alien, historical dances. Yes. Which is my backing group. Yeah. Oh, no. Joanna and the Back and Alien, historical dances. I'm sorry. Garbled explanation of my obscure reference vinyl, but I feel like that fits the subject matter, so I'm going to leave it there. Yeah, that was perfect. Thank you. I wouldn't have any other way.
Starting point is 01:13:53 Thank you very much for listening to this episode of The True Share Mickey Frat. We'll be back next week with the final part of making money, which starts at chapter 8 and goes right through to the end of the book. Until next time, dear listener, you can join our Discord, link down below, follow us on Instagram at trueshamikifrat on Twitter and Blue Sky at MikiFratPod, on Facebook at the TrueShamikimera, don't ask subreddit community, ask-ttsmyf, email us your thoughts, queries, castles, snacks and tarantellers at trueshamikifratpod at but not tarantulas, and if you want to support this nonsense financially go to forward slash the true shaman key threat, where you can exchange
Starting point is 01:14:26 your hard end pennies for all sorts of bonus things. They are coming. Up to and including historical dancing. Oh, and please do the rating review thing. It helps people find us and tell people about us if you want to tell people say, Hey, there are these really weird fucking people who keep talking about all kinds of shit. You should listen to occasionally better than that. Better than that that because you won't have just been talking for two hours so you'll be able to be more eloquent. Excellent. I believe in you listeners. And until next time, dear listener, don't let us detain you. Hold on, I'm going to pull it back by raising an eyebrow. I'm not going to raise an eyebrow. I can't. I'm going to eat something potato based.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.