The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 136: Unseen Academicals Pt. 1 (Reticule! In the Boudoir)

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 1 of our recap of “Unseen Academicals”. Megapode! Mallard! Many types of shoe!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Unseen Academicals - Colin Smythe Author Terry Pratchett knighted - The BooksellerUnseen Academicals Interview 5live - YouTubeOxford dons go quackers - The GuardianMegapode - Wikipedia The Folklore of Discworld - Sir Terry Pratchett Lisa goes to Military School - YouTube Everything to Play For: The QI Book of Sport - Faber Spillikins - Jane Austen articles and blog Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

I don't know how much my voice is going to hold up. If you kind of trail off into an indistinct croaking, I'll take over and, you know, finish each other's sandwiches. No, Francine, no. What? Oh, all right, like, you don't like frozen. Yeah, right. Go get a lensit. Going get a lensit.

We're talking about, like, how incredible the internet is fucking being this week. We've had fucked up Wonka. My favorite. I'm calling it now my favorite thing of 2024. Oh yeah, 100%. I know really in on the 1st of March as we record listeners. Very very specifically the AI generated the unknown, the evil chocolate maker that lives in the walls.

Beautiful. I mean, it's the posters for me that have done it. Um, you know, the catchy tones and the enriching. We will, I guess we will link to something in the show notes, listeners, if you somehow miss all of this, because I don't think I

can summarize it in a way that does it justice. I'll try very briefly, but I will link something. If somehow you've missed it listeners, this was an event in Glasgow that advertised itself as this not Willy Wonka, but Willy's chocolate experience because Willy Wonka is owned by Hasbro and that was in the small print. Using these AI generated images to make it look all fantastical and like what you'd expect. And then people turned up and it was like an unseasonal version of the terrible Winter Wonderland story we get every year. Yeah, it's that way creepier because it involved this odd monster that the AI had the AI generated

scripted thrown up. Cool. And now he lives in the walls, the unknown who lives in the walls, of course. And he by the way, in the script was meant to be sucked up by a giant vacuum cleaner. But the guy who played Willy Wonka turned up on the day was like, Yeah, so I've just read the script that you gave me last night, by the way. And I needed vacuum cleaner. And the guy who'd given them the script, he clearly hadn't even read it. I was like, Oh, hadn't even read it.

I was like, oh, we don't have that. Just improvised. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. And kids were given like a quarter of a cup of lemonade and one jelly bean each. So depressing. Tesco Valley lemonade as well, I think. Or Tesco and Brian, whatever it is.

The, the, the, the oompa-loompa, I'd say, is like the, the shining star. I feel so sorry for that woman. Cause there's just one picture of her looking like she's miserable and working in a meth lab. And she is like genuinely a children's entertainer and works very hard and does not deserve to be known for this. No, but I think the tide has turned there because obviously everyone was using that as the meme for like, fuck my life, which was very funny. But now she came out and did

an interview and like a couple of TikTok videos about it. And everyone's found other pictures of her now like really trying her best to like interact with the kids and make it a bit better for them. And like, now everyone's calling her like, you know, fucking legend of the year kind of thing. So I think that's good. I think that's good. I think it should work out well for her. But I saw somebody on TikTok saying that the guy who played Wonka who'd also come out and do interviews is actually a twat. But I saw somebody on TikTok saying that the guy who played Wonka, who'd also come out and do interviews, is actually a twat.

So I saw that as well. He was like a teacher and dating one of his students. And yeah, just a whole other. But maybe I don't know, it was just someone I saw on TikTok. So that could just be nothing. It may be fun. What's amazing is that this happened and took over the whole internet on the same day as the prominent turf reading pornographic Harry Potter fanfiction massively zoomed in on her phone on the train that someone else was. Oh, did you? I did. I think the only thing I cared about this week was the Wonka thing.

It came out on like the same day as the Wonka thing and it was Helen Joyce who runs, if you haven't heard of Helen Joyce, very prominent transphobe. She wrote a horrible book about trans kids that was also managed to be racist and anti-semitic. And I think she was recently in the news for like... You shocked me. These turfs are also bigots in every other direction. Gasp. Filling the book like on a library, an LGBTQ library display and it wasn't even one of the library... Yeah, this woman.

So this person was on a train and looked over and was like... She was looking at stuff on a phone, I guess it was like really like middle aged zoomed in and was like, oh my god, I just saw someone doing like a sex matters stuff thing. And then was like, Holy shit, I just realized it's it's Helen Joyce. Holy shit. Now I'm pretty sure she's reading pornographic Harry Potter fanfiction on the train. I mean, there was like a horrible pal clutching moralizing like, Oh, you say we're being pervy

about kids and you're being pervy about kids and like, I was like, no, no, it's just really funny. Because she's friends with JK Rowling and she's reading the pornographic Harry Potter. Don't get me wrong, it is kind of weird to read stuff about schoolchildren fucking. Like, I'm not going to pretend that's not fucking weird. But can we just lean on, let's not really kill her more than turning it into another argument that people try and take seriously. Yeah, this doesn't need to be a moral panic. You don't need to call it child sexual exploitation material, which people were like it is it's

fan fiction about fictional characters. But also it is really fucking funny that she was reading that shit on the train and that she's you know, close personal friends with J.K. Rowling. I hope the next time they see each other it's not brought out. But it's just really awkward. Yeah, I mean she's claimed it was like research for something that she published two years ago. Of course. Oh no, what's this in my bookmarks? And it's, yeah. So there's that and the Willy Wonka thing. Oh, and Kate Middleton's missing, apparently. Oh, yeah, that's the thing. The BBC report it on that now. They've held off for quite

a while. Yeah. We're in the world is the Princess of Wales. Oh, I hope she's okay, I guess. Oh, no, not I guess. I hope she's all right. Yeah, I don't think it's as interesting a conspiracy as a lot of the internet seem to think. Oh yeah, I mean, this is one of those things this is like when you tell me about like your work stuff. Like, I have no skin in this game, I'm in it for the goss. I want to know what the goss is. Oh, yeah, no, it's like why she hasn't made a public appearance since December. And I am sure it is nothing actually ridiculous. And as a human being, obviously, I hope it's like why she hasn't made a public appearance since December and I am sure it is nothing actually ridiculous and as a human being obviously I hope she's not you know secretly died. Hmm.

But like also I want to know what the goss is and I love wild speculation on the internet. Speaking of wild speculation on the internet my favorite not least favorite and favorite. We had shit on Twitter today because you know how the Twitter algorithm has now like gone to absolute extreme. Like if you click on one tweet, that's they will show you another 20 of those. Yeah. You know, there's a hexagon on Saturn's pole. Yeah. Yeah, apparently that's a demon hexagon on Saturn's pole. I didn't. Well, apparently that's a demon enclave or something. Yeah, no, I did see that tweet. I was aware of conspiracy theorists are absolutely bizarre to me. Yeah, like that this particular flavour of them. The hexagon assassin is a demon enclave flavour, which is kind of specific, but also like not.

Well, I think it's one of those ones that you click a couple threads down and it's it's always anti-Semitism somehow. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, a bit of a slightly fav here as well, because I saw one person say, Black cube like Mecca, somehow in the middle of that hexagon. Wow. Yeah. Just why do we need conspiracy theorize? Why can we not enjoy the wonder that is there's a fucking hexagon on Saturn? I don't know. I think some people really, really need to feel... Well, I don't know. There's two ways I can look at this. Some people really need to feel like they know something, that other people don't, is their way to feel clever. Yeah.

And I think there's a lot of people who have this kind of underlying sense of dread, whether that's a kind of natural reaction to how the world is or some kind of mental illness that hasn't been properly treated. And it's more comforting to latch onto something like that. And it is to find an actual reason for feeling this way all the time. All right, see, that's way too well thought out. Also, you know, the demons on satan do kind of reach into your brain a lot of the time. Yeah, they do. Do you think they were there before or after the rings?

And that's before or after sharks? Oh, I forgot about the thing with the sharks. Do you think sharks live in the Saturn hexagon? GF Yes. I was learning about the Leviathan this week. Lindsay Necoll, who I follow on Twitter and YouTube, is doing a long-form version of her History of the World series and also has a video on Megalodon versus Leviathan, the huge predatory whale thing and the Megalodon and that's pretty good here. Loretta This still likes me. Right, I have no way to segue us so I'm just gonna go straight in. Do you want to make a podcast?

Loretta Speaking of sharks. Do you want to make a podcast? Gia I would love to make a podcast. Let's make one. Let's make one. Let's make a podcast. Also, let's make one. Let's make one. Let's make a podcast. That's it. Hello and welcome to the Giselle Maky Frater podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratjist's Discord series, One This Time in Chronological Order. I'm Joanna Hagan. I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part one of our discussion of unseen academics. Note on spoilers. This is a spoiler light podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book Unseen Academicals. But we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discord series. We're saving any and all discussion of the final Discord novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you dear listener can

come on the journey with us. Pushing a peas pudding stand ahead of us. Have you actually had peas pudding? No, neither hot nor cold nor from a pan ten days on. This is making me really want some peas. What's it taste like? Kind of like mushy peas but like drier. I remember it tasting of vinegar.

It doesn't sound good but like it is. Okay. I mean, I believe you if it's one of the street foods. It's in northern. There's definitely elements of it being a northern thing. And maybe I don't like it. Maybe I'm just being proud of my heritage. Yeah, I've accidentally engaged in class warfare and I do apologize. If it makes feel better, I also think jelly deals sound bad. I mean, different areas, similar class strata, also jelly deals are fucking gross. I've tried. Oh, you have. Okay.

I will not call something gross until I have attempted to eat it. I won't eat something until scientists have worked out its life cycle. No, I like that. Let eels be a mystery for unseen. Sometimes you just don't need to know. There are baby eel eating contests on the continent still, except baby eels are quite not endangered exactly, but protected now because they were going that way. Um, and so they make them out of strips of

fish, I think basically, but in one place and I can't remember which they didn't think this was realistic enough, they make tiny little faces in them as well. Well, we've gone wildly off topic and I haven't even got to the follow up from last month yet. It's a quick bit of follow up before we get on with Unseen Academicals. Thank you for everyone who pointed out that the magical lock thing we were thinking of was the lock-in hogfather that Sidney was picking. Some lovely examples of political embarrassment. Ed Miliband, bacon sandwich is one I hadn't thought of, which is- That was a good one, yeah.

That fills me with fucking rage that they destroyed his career over looking a bit weird. Oh, I mean, they didn't. Not entirely. That was a thing they focused on. I mean, they didn't. That was not entirely. That was a that was just a thing they focused on. I mean, I think we've proven over the last decade that you can put as many incredibly compromising pictures of a politician in a newspaper as you want, and it doesn't change which way that I it's going. I think Ed Miliband was not going to be far and established the damn shame considering what happened. But I know, but I feel like it's just easier to be better over the bacon sandwich than

everything else. Yeah, everything else is a bit much. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, another follow up. Just more layers of the China making money pun. Well, China, China means making it something appearing nicer than it seems, this is an email from Sid, by the way. It could also refer to the expression Shona Shisa, literally nice shit, an expression of exasperation about something having gone wrong, which also fits the themes of the book

rather well. So thank you for that further context, Sid, and for showing us your gorgeous summoning dark tattoo. It's very pretty. I think the Germans might have had a better title than us on this one for sure. Yeah, I mean making money does work. It does work. It's double meaning. It's good. But I think the Germans ended up with like a quadruple meaning.

Well, I think the German language just has more opportunities to do that. Yeah, we should learn German to expand our Punning Horizons, I think. I tried learning German and part of it is that Duolingo just sucks and then part of it was every time I tried to speak German in Germany, everyone very nicely spoke back to me in English. Oh, painful, isn't it? At least with Spanish, like people replied to me in Spanish and then I have to apologise. Yeah, but that's alarming as well.

Anyway, you're like, hola! And then they start talking like you knew what the language was, you're like, oh no! I'm in Turkey and I didn't even know the phrase, but no, sorry, I'm English. Right, we can't stay on topic today. It's just not going to happen. There's quite poorly today listeners. And so today we're going to find out what happened if Joanna doesn't have the strength to corral me.

And I'm going to try my best to Anna. I'm sorry, I'll drink a bit more caffeine. Thank you for answering. I appreciate it. Um, for the things you want to introduce us to the book Unseen Academicals. Certainly. Unseen Academicals is the 37th Deathsguard Novel. It was published in October 2009. Fun fact about the early editions, some of them, Salden Waterstones, were issued with four footballers of Ankmoreport collectible cards. So you're like trading cards, which is fun.

Rob Wilkins thought the unseen academic was or thinks that unseen academic was Terry's funniest, which is a nice little fun trivia from the book that he wrote. I like the footnames. I like the footnames. Thank you. This, I think, this book is our first, like, real visit downstairs at the Unseen University since Equal Rights. Yeah, I would say so.

It's a wizards book. It's in the wizards arc, but we very much get a whole new world in this one, which is quite fun. Who'd have thought there was yet another one hiding in Angkor Forg. Now, I was reading, as I usually usually do some interviews and reviews and things. I'll link some of the interviews. But the reviews, I rubbed me the wrong way a little bit. This seems to be to me about the time where this kind of kindly old gnome misconception really sat in. There's a lot of kind of like, oh, his illness doesn't even show you stuff, which is, you know, yeah. But also, there are just

a couple of quotes that I saw like, repeat in a few places. So the first few desk wall books were extremely funny. The 30-odd since then have elapsed into gentle satire with everything from death to Hollywood examined under Teru's benign eye. That's Virginia Blackburn, Sunday Express. You can't call what practice does satire. It's far too good-natured for that, but he has a satirist instinct for the observed, an Akata-unist's eye for the telling detail, Peter Ingham, The Daily Teograph. I feel like if you're reading especially the last five or six, yeah, and you think that gentle satire benign Nearly satire is where we find it. You're not really understanding. You didn't pick up monster stretchman then did you? No, I mean you didn't even really read the Tiffany Aking books, which a lot of things, but I wouldn't call them gentle

you didn't even really read the Tiffany Aking books, which a lot of things, but I wouldn't call them gentle. Sad. Yeah, all of it. Yeah. I mean, Night Watch is the most obvious yelling at the... Like, it gets dark here, yeah. System, yeah. Anyway, just rub me up the wrong way slightly.

All of the reviews are positive, but they have been for many years at this point for the Discworld books, because now, you know, everyone knows you Terry Fratchett is. Yeah. And this is not long. He got his, like, knighthood just after this, I believe. Just before I think, because he has mentioned us, Sir Terry. Oh, okay. So around this time, I think, like the now much deserved Sir Terry. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was my, that was my, my thoughts on those reviews. Listeners,

tell me what do you think about them? How do you feel like going into this one? Is this one you've read, March? Is this one you'd like? Is this a? Yeah. I mean, considering it's a subject, I'm not that like into football, which you'd think would put it on the same level as moving pictures for me. This is one I've read a lot actually. I think maybe because it came out, you know, 2009, which is probably my peak reading and rereading of Discworld, kind of years was 2005 to 2012, whatever. And yeah, I like it. I haven't read it recently enough to remember every single bit of it. So it is a joy that I'm less surprised by the twists and turns than I was from making

money. How about you? I've been really looking forward to getting to this one. This is actually one of the ones I've not reread much because I got into Discworld a bit later than you. So we're almost at the point where I started getting the books as they came out. I think I should wear midnight was the first time I got a Discworld book, like on release day. And it was a new Discworld book. I was still like working my way through at that point. And this is just before I should wear midnight. Obviously it's around the same time as nation. But yeah, so I just ended up having I've ended up not rereading it much because I don't, I tend to reread by, before we started the podcast, I tended to reread by arc and I didn't tend to go to the wizards books.

I tended to reread like all the witches books or all the watch books or all the moist books. Because if you're wrong opinions about rinse went here. Yeah, no, I'm like, Oh, it's a wizard's book. I don't love those and it's about football. And I don't love that. And then I pick it up and I'm like, Oh, wait, no, this is a really good book. And it's really funny. And there's, you know, gentle Shakespeare parody. It's not really gentle. You hit over the head with it very heavily. Much like a well polished fan.

Yeah. So I'm really excited to talk about this one because I don't think I've mentally given it enough credit and it's a really good book. They're all really good books. But Gasp. Sorry, I'm making broad statements now. I don't think we've come across one yet accepting perhaps that one science of discworld books that we've had a negative reaction to. And even that was mainly just me and I was in a bad mood that month. So we struggled a bit with Eric, but I was in a really bad mood that month. And also

we struggled because we tried to make three episodes out of a novella. Hmm. Yeah, we, we hobbited it. Yeah. It didn't work. God damn it, Peter Jackson. If we didn't, oh, if we'd introduced Radagaster Brown, would it be fine? Right. There we go. Always introduce Radigaster Brown when you're trying to get three episodes out of the novella.

All right. This is a very long book, though. So what's the first third of it looking like? And where do we start and where do we finish? Well, I thought we'd start at the beginning. Radical, radical concept, but I'm going to go with it. First thing. Starting whistle, if you will. Oh, Francie. Football. My one mission going into this is that by the third episode I will not just understand

the offside rule but be able to explain the offside rule. Listeners, do not message me and explain to me the offside rule. I have to do this on my own. I'm sure I've explained the offside rule to you before. I'm sure you have. That doesn't mean I've retained it. No, no, no, no. Every time I watch football, someone explains the offside rule to me. I've never retained it in my life. No, that's fair. Same as both of us with cricket. Sorry, please carry on. Anyway, yeah. So this section begins at the beginning and ends page 173 in the

Cawkea paperback. With the line, she will not find you wanting in either department. GEM Wiggle the eyebrows. GEM Wiggle the eyebrows as much as you like. In this section, at midnight in the Royal Art Museum, shelves explode with a find. At 2am in the Unseen University, the candle nave makes its rounds. Ho the megapode! A tradition is being celebrated. The wizards await the snack trolley and Ridcully remembers the dean before the pickle train interrupts. Ponder has found an unhonoured tradition. In the night kitchen, Juliet is late

thanks to the football, nut dribbles, Trev kicks a can and Glenda reads furtively on the bus home. The wizards argue football and Ponder asks about nut aggressively. Trev asks nut a favour and Juliet asks Glenda about Trev. This isn't a very detailed summary because a lot of it is just people asking each other about people and then they go to the football. I also just got the double meaning of dribble for the first time so that's good. Amazing, well done, good effort. And at veterinary ask Rid College to oversee a football overhaul and the arts chancellor makes plans to see the next game afoot. It's match day, the crowds are shoving and the librarian's looking on. Nut meets Trev's friends, the wizards are searching for the ball, and as Nut finds Glenda

in the shove, Trev saves Juliet from certain concussion. Nut scores a goal and Trev orchestrates a run for it, but the Stolop brothers start a fight. Andy joins the almost fray and Trev attempts de-escalation, but a wallop from a stollop stops Nutt's heart. That's got it, I'm proud of that. That's too funny. Trevor talks to the watch and Nutt wakes unarmed and hungry. An eagle warns Trevor and Glenda sets to pies via a brief cup of tea and a threat for otomy. Juliet's father has been

invited to a footballers banquet and he's concerned. Back at the university, Nazi snore the pies and Trev's had a bit of a shock. A chase lunch comes in handy and Nazi sits down to write a poem on Trev's behalf. The next morning, an old vase promises a new game and there's tonkers aplenty. A chase lunch. I've just realised I haven't written it down anywhere in here so I just want to quickly enjoy Nuts Planet. There's so much I might inadvertently pull! Also Tonka under use. I feel like we should bring Tonka into everyday conversation. Wasn't it one of the recruits' names in Monster's Regiment?

Yeah, Tonka and Lofty. Yeah, that's right. I know that's not what's meant here. Yes. Yeah. I know that's not what's meant here. Yes, different. Are you pulling my character from a completely different series? The helicopter in Loink Gloss Watch for Helicopter, Trives Well Kicked, can. But not through. Oh, it doesn't spin. No, you're quite right. Sorry. It's all about the spin.

It's all about the spin. For Loink Gloss, I'm going with the reticule in the boudoir. The reticule in the boudoir. This is mustard with the reticule in the boudoir. Recycle in the boudoir. Just planning to get the discus first. Anyway, that was tenuous. Quotes are my first. Can you go

first? I've just talked a lot. Yeah, no, absolutely. Sorry. The librarian was not very familiar with love, which had always struck him as a bit ethereal and soppy. But kindness, on the other hand, was practical. You knew where you were with kindness, especially if you were holding a pie that had just given you. I just really like the librarians a little bit in here. I think the librarian gets some lovely moments. On the Keep Track of it is kind of explained, but in a very sort of sort of unfamiliar eyes. Yeah.

Yeah, it was good. And I like that Glenda sometimes makes them a banana pie. I want a banana pie. No, I've read that. I really want Bonofi pie. There's this Italian restaurant I used to go to in Norwich all the time and it's closed down, which makes me really sad. And they used to do the best Bonofi pie.

Does a Bonofi pie always have to be like a cheesecake? No, Bonofi pie absolutely doesn't have to be a cheesecake. It can be like toffee and bananas, which is what it should be, because that's why it's called Bonofi. Yeah, yeah. The last couple of times I've had it, I've been a bit upset, obviously, but I'm like, this is just a banana and toffee cheesecake. No, maybe I should learn how to make one. Maybe I'll make you one. Anyway, um, sorry,

my quotes before yours. This is Vesemari. Only temporally. Only temporally. And physically in the book. Yeah, all right, yeah. And not the show plan. And not the show plan. That's my initials first. I did it that way when I first made the show plan five years ago and it's stuck. This is Vesenari talking to Red Cully. Look at them.

Ranks, files, he said, waving a hand over the little stone figures. Locked in everlasting conflict at the whim of the player. They fight, they fall, and they cannot turn back because the whips drive them on, and all they know is whips, kill or be killed. Darkness in front of them, darkness behind them, darkness and whips in their heads. But what if he could take one out of this game? Get him before the whips do. Take him to a place without whips. What might he become?

One creature. One singular being. Would you deny them that chance? You had three men hanged last week, said Ridcully, without quite understanding why. It's... extremely evocative of something very abstract. Mmm. It's... It's really evocative of something very abstract. Mm.

It's really well written. It's more cerebral than we get to see veterinary be regularly. Mm. Like, I think he often gets to stand up and do a metaphor at whoever he's having a meeting with. Mm-mm. It weaponized metaphors very much the order of the day with veterinary. But it's not usually quite so honest

This is a shared secret as opposed to vets and Ari knowing something other people don't he shares this sort of secret of nut with riddicolor Yeah and So it puts it's it's a lot sharper and harsher than as usual weaponised metaphors This isn't prawns being flicked across semaphore towers This isn't prawns being flicked across semaphore towers. But it should be. And it sets up also really nicely something later in the book. Yeah, these little glimpses at the beginning I think have done very well.

Yes. So characters. We've got quite a few new people on this one. Let's start with Mr. Nut. Mr. Nut. Mr. Nut, oh he has the spherical head. He has the spherical head and the earnest, very helpful expression. Yes, a little slicked back keenness I think somebody said. Yes. I really like that, so this is kind of new, he's referred to as goblin a lot, Trev calls him gobo. Um, although it's hinted that there's a bit more than just him being a goblin. Yeah. Um, but Pratt explains directly why he's not starting in the watch, uh, because the new species is normally introduced

in a watchbook. And I think it's quite nice that it's just dealt with straight away yet. No, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. We're doing something else. Yeah. Yeah. I want to play with the candles. And his automatic troubler and the way he when he's like stressed and towards the end of the section when he's so miserable and feeling guilty. And so while he's psychoanalyzing, Travis also just sits there and makes candles as a way

to comfort himself and reassure himself that he has worth. He's an incredibly sympathetic character from the off. Yeah. When he's almost crying, when Glenda's like, what the fuck are you? It's like paraphrase. What? When he's very empathetic as well, he picks up very quickly that the candle nave did not

allow that candle to go out. You know, he only goes, what do you mean once? Which is, you know, this is one of those nice recurring themes through Discworld as well, isn't it? It's like, this is the same scone. Yeah, it's gone. Or it's, you know, my colleague. It's the sheep of sheep of this year. So I was about to say the sheep of this year sway, you know, the woolly tails being replaced, but it's still the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How many jumpers can you make out of the sheep of these years before? I do. Actually, the specific idea of like the flame going out thing. It's not quite the ship of Theseus idea, but just this idea of yes, this flame never goes out and it's never gone out three times.

Yeah. Well, the Olympic flame. Yeah. Kind of thing, isn't it? Yeah. Like, of course, sometimes there's a, I think I've talked about it on here before, but Trini Canavan, fancy author I like. And there's a mild thing with a religion in one of her books, their big temple, they've got a flame that never goes out. And someone that is getting it all and says, so how often has it gone out then? They said, oh, like this many times and we always make sure people, you know, do know if it happens. Yeah. And

then it just is something that sometimes happens because we're the very reasonable religion. Yeah. And I just, I always like it as a detail. Yeah, that is nice. I really gotta read those. I think maybe I did read some of them, but I don't know. It was during that period where I was just absolutely garbling down fancy comics, yeah, yeah. Which was quite some time ago. And yet, and yes, I still not read the next Patrick Ross, this one. Yeah, fine. Don't, it's fine. It's fine, Francine. I like, he's sort of speculating on the goblin thing and it was a word with an ox train load of baggage. It didn't matter what you said or did, or made the train run right over you. And this one, he's thinking about how he brought stuff to this village that he'd made. And his history with Pastor Oates, which I love, you know.

Miterly. The quiet Rev. Miterly praiseworthy IE who exalted Thalm Oates. He's having a bit of a time now, isn't he? Well done him. Yeah, I think Granny would approve. I think she would approve. I wonder how old he is now. We should probably look at the timeline or something. But I guess he's, because he was a youngster, wasn't he? He was very good.

In Lord's and Lady's, no. Masquerade. No. No, uh, Cabbage Oculum. Cabbage Oculum. I will. I've got an excuse. I've actually written Masquerade down here.

We've covered like 30 odd bucks. We've all got excuses. Um, and yeah, N nuts history with this lady ship. It's I think it's implied who she is, but she's not named in this section. She is. Oh, she does get names. Just at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. This is me taking in so much detail.

I love Trav's. I think it was Trav. Replying to Nut who's like, it's a nut with two Ts. I was like, do you find the second T helps? No, not really. No, that was the Smeams. That's right. Smeams. What are names? Smeams. Yeah. Oh, it's very evocative name, isn't it? Smeams. Oh, I know what you're like. Another couple of nut moments I really love, sort of flirting with Glenda in a very specific way. You are very kind and a very handsome lady with your two enormous chests that indicate

bountifulness and fecundity and Glenda having to go and get definitions before she can be properly furious. I like that she went to find the definitions before deciding before reacting properly. I like that she went to find the definitions before deciding before reacting properly. I also liked his improved compliment later on about her elbows that certainly nicely dimpled and tightly folded. Everything about his little flotation with Glenda is great. And then again towards the laser in the section, really fucking dark moment where he says, um, Trevor asked him, why was it so important to lift the anvil? I was chained to the anvil. Is a real thud in the middle of what's otherwise like a not particularly dark conversation. Yeah, yeah, it's nice. Yeah, no, it is nice. The kind of little community they've got in the, in the cellar there of the, they don't exactly know all of each other's past, but they all know

that something bad has must have happened to each of them. And obviously, nuts turned out to be a tad more dramatic than Trev was expecting. But also not helping and knowing he can quite happily take care of more of the work, which means that the others just get to exist down there somewhere safe because the world doesn't really suit them up above. Yeah, so Trev. Trevor. I'll note that anyone who doesn't have English as a first language might not know that Trevor likely likely is probably, I'm guessing, like a little sideway reference to likely lad. Yes. Which is kind of a bit of

an ambiguous phrase, but it can mean like someone likely to cause trouble or someone likely to succeed. It's quite a northern phrase in my experience. But I had a quick look. Apparently earliest evidence is from 1684. The OED has from John Bunyan. Fun. Awesome. I like the kicked can being referred to as a leetmeteef, like motif, just so I like leetmeteef as a word. I can't say. Yeah, we haven't used that in a good few books time. No, it's back. I like his relationship with Nutt is immediately non-antistic. And there's almost like a split

second where you think it kind of could be antagonistic like nuts doing his job for him. And he's calling him gobo and nut is obviously not a huge fan of being called gobo. Loretta No. Sarah But you can see the like almost sympathetic caring nature of it sort of developed very quickly. Loretta Yeah. I mean, he also does have a go at using the long words, doesn't he? Snaps a little bit, but it seems to be more that he's scared for his safety than yeah, like he's trying to teach him how to get by by existing in this particular way and Nut points out at least one occasion where Trevor forgets to talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

There's a lot of this like, putting on a particular front of my to be so when you get like the my fair lady joke, it kind of hammers home, everyone's doing some version of that. Yeah, absolutely. You've also got this lovely trope of the, the prodigal son almost of the, the son who has this incredible talent in a specific area that he doesn't want to have it in because it fucked up his family in some way and his dad in this case. And that's quite a nice trope that you see in a lot of stories. Done very well here. But the can being the stand-in for the ball as well is great, especially when you, you know, when you realise a bit later that they've never really kicked a ball around the can. The can is his, his

icon. Yeah. Yeah, the can is the thing that you can kick around the ball in football is a thing that will possibly break your toes if you actually kick it. Yeah. And his sort of realisation that he needs to get away from the shove, which starts setting up like the big thing that gets really explored in the next section. And it's when night is injured and everything and he has his parting words to Carta, because obviously this group, the dimwell massive posse, not as misunderstood and thought it's

called the dimwell massive pussy. And he says something to Carta like, it's called the well massive pussy. And he says something to Carter like it's funny. It's funny and it's sort of sad and hopeless it is. Because he can see how there's they've put themselves into this tiny little world and they need to stop doing it. And he can see his life kind of unrolled before him because he's watched all their fathers do this exact life. Yeah. And I think when Nutsus is forcing him to confront the memories and says, but you hate him because he became a mortal man dying on the cobbles. Yeah, that's a whole bit.

But then of course, him doing a very nice fainting just long enough for Juliet to bring him something to wake him up again. Yes. Which is a little callback, I think, callback exactly but reminiscent of what's a face in masquerade. Who used to do that. Fainted for just long enough to be revived. Yeah. I don't think he does it. He's doing it on purpose, though. No, but he does sit up at the exact moment. You know, it is very not things and it said, oh, you seem to have, Glenda does. Yeah, you seem to have parked up at exactly the right times.

So Glenda, who I fucking love Glenda so much. She's my favourite, she's definitely a witch and I love her. She's my favourite character. Is that in Rihanna Practitsburg Is she mentioned as a nearly witch in that? I will check. We'll check on the break, shall we? I meant to check that before we started recording. Okay. Because I feel like she was and if not, I've just wrecked on that in my head. Yeah. It's never occurred to me reading this before. This is the first time it's occurred to

me. I also, I love Glenda a lot more on this read through the normal. But yeah, when she's, she gets in from work and but now she cooks an early breakfast for widow Crowdy who occupied the house on the other side and can get about much these days and made her comfortable. She did the chores and finally went to bed and a half past eight and able to wake her up by throwing gravel at her window. He wanted her to come and look at his father described as poorly in the day began she never needs to buy an alarm clock. Like that's witch shit. It is witch shit. Yeah. And I feel like these amazing pies, like all of our witches have something they're very, very good at.

Like something like that. Just me and the cheese, my granny and the honey and the granny and the bees or a peculiar and her pigs. Yeah, Nanny and the scumble. Yeah Maybe not that nearly mainly apples I really feel like Glenda were like Trev needed, you know Not unlocking the door in his head and that kind of intense psycho analysis Glenda just needs to get drunk with Nani Og and she'll be fine. Not that she's like not fine in the book anyway, but yeah, no, I just I think she's such a wonderful, well-written character. The book never says she's a witch, but she's written as if she is one of the witches. Just in a very different setting, but it's still a very villagey setting.

It is the small villages that develop within bigger cities. It's Dolly sisters where vines grew up. No, he grew up on Cockbill Street. That's right. But that's Dolly sisters. Dolly sisters, I believe, is one of the locations of the riots. There you go. There you go. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the riot where like kid gets trampled by a horse or something. Oh, yeah. Sorry. That was pressing anyway.

On the things that aren't being trampled by horses. No, but Glenda's, I love her like obsession with bad novels. I love the fact that she's learning all these words that she can't pronounce. Is that the one that sounds like forks pass? That's yeah, that's why Glenda knew Elocution, Torrid, Boudoir and Reticule, although she wasn't too sad about Reticule and Boudoir and avoided using them, which in the general scheme of things was not hard. I had to look up Reticule. That's like a little some type of bag.

Yeah. Yeah. And her side job, her selling the dream, which is selling cosmetics to trolls that are being made by Adwoa from that lovely bit of world building. Amazing bit of world body is very like Avon Lady kind of thing. It's have you seen Edward Cisnerhans? Yeah. Yeah.

So the woman in that and she's she's doing all the Avhorns? Yeah. Yeah. So the woman in that and she's, she's doing all the AVE on sale. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it very much reminded me of that. Yeah. The heavy dollar. Um, so the, the trolls in our part of the middle class, which is really nice bit of like, uh, times moving on, but at the same time, like a nod towards the fact that all

of this high level diplomacy stuff that we've looked at before doesn't necessarily translate to the, the Dwarf or a nod towards the fact that all of this high level diplomacy stuff that we've looked at before doesn't necessarily translate to the the Dwarf or the Troll on the street. Yeah. So instead we see this stuff and you kind of get her thinking on how Coombe Valley has affected it a bit. It does just become more and more of a realised city every time we read an outmoral thought but it doesn't, it's brilliant. We do and it means it can introduce the character like Glenda who we've never met before and

have her like leap fully formed off the page. Yeah. She's got a setting. Because she's got a setting and she fits into that setting and then you put in with the kitchen and the night kitchen. Oh, the night kitchen by the way. I say that's a nice little recurring theme of like the night version of whatever it is. There's a good place to start your character often. Like the night watch and the night kitchen. Yeah, especially putting in like, this is all downstairs at the university, but then

within the downstairs, there's these microcosms are like night kitchen versus day kitchen. And technically, we're all under Mrs. Whitlow, but she thinks more of say the day girls than the night girls. Yeah, but it's great because it's, is it liminal? Is it liminal? It's nearly liminal. It could be a little bit liminal around the ears. It could be.

There's definitely a lot of pies. There was a tweet or something like that. I really liked that was going around the other day. There was something like, if you ever wake up at two or three a.m. and you're terrified, just remember that somewhere the bakers are already at work and somebody else is reflecting. Yeah, no, I'm a baker. Just think me like I'm already in there, putting the doughnuts in the oven and there'll be nice

more for you when you get off and just think about that and it is comforting actually. Oh, I love that. You have a wake up feeling all alone and scared in the middle of the night. The bakers are already at work. It's okay. The world is happening. Oh, I love that. And involves bread. Which is important. It is. There's also a lot of Glenda stuff I just find really relatable when she's trying to work out

which, what kind of jam would work in the tuna, spaghetti and jam as I would sprinkle. I didn't think of you very much there, yeah. Especially quince. Quince, maybe chilli jam. I don't have a thing about quince. I just like quince. It's an original fruit, Joanna. It is an original fruit. It's very exciting don't have a thing about quints. I just like quints. GEM It's an original fruit, Joanna. Joanna It is an original fruit.

GEM It's very exciting. You told me about the citron. You told me about the quints. I liked the original fruits. GEM Anyway, before I start talking about quints on the book, I'll say. Joanna The quints essential to... GEM Oh, I just set Joanna's recovery back a full week, sorry. Oh, I just set Joanna's recovery back a full week. So anyway, when they've come back from

the football match, and you start to see Juliet almost challenging Glenda a little bit, but in a very quiet way, and she says this, I'm being busy, takes your mind off things. And she knew that's what you always say. And then she just goes straight into thinking through the pies and what order she'll do things in. So while Boar and Apricots and we've got mutton pies and tracklements and pork pies and there's oysters they'll do for the wet pie and the sea pie and the stargazing.

And right now I'll blend some pastries at what? Yeah. That's very, speaking as someone who like has worked in kitchens and gone in and set up prep lists and completely ignored conversations that were happening while doing so. I liked how gentle how gentle her reaction to not eating all the pies was as well because it it shows that the pies are an outlet as much as a passion, you know, good when you get all the fill that for her like think you're doing so good at it and not eat all the pies like oh my god,

she's gonna be furious. and she's not furious and not only because she's got some already maturing I didn't know mature pie was a thing whatever but also because you know she made the pies they're made now that bit the process of making the pies was the point does that make sense? Yeah it's like oh my God you've screwed me over by it's just okay I want my little pies yeah I'm glad you liked it. you've screwed me over by it's just okay, I will make more pies. And then when she, the moment again sort of later in the scene where she confronts like her own simmering anger and you get this bit in italics of why are you so angry sometimes, what went wrong, you got there and there was no there there, you wanted to seek querm from an open carriage,

well a nice young man drank champagne out of your slipper. You never did because there are funny lot in querm and you can trust the water and how did that champagne thing work and what happened if you this is why Glenna needs to sit down with any odd just so she can learn how that works. Yeah, very that in a run cranny weather wax, couldn't it? If an in slightly different tone of voice. The end bit anyway, not that she'd have ever wanted that. What would happen if your toe trouble played up? Yeah.

But that whole rant's very like third thoughts. That feels like something Tiffany, a conversation Tiffany would have with herself. Yeah, yeah. While furiously making cheeses. While furiously making cheeses, exactly. I mean, they take the troll chair and she's, she's worried about curtain twitching neighbors and letting the side up. Yeah.

Which, uh, I think we'll, I'm gonna say for next week, so I'm assuming we're both going to get really angry about some of the, uh, the class crab bucket stuff. Yeah. This is the book where we, we have a fully realized crab bucket rants, I think. That perhaps it's been building up to for quite some time. Yeah. Right. I'm very, I'm very much looking forward to talking about that. I did text you when I was doing the initial read through of the book and say like, we don't really need to

record the episode, we can just bitch about crab, say fucking crab bucket for a bit and we're pretty much done. Copy based. So Juliet, I love the descriptions of her. There's something so completely unpervy about it. She's like this just ethereal. The only physical description we've got so far telling me if I'm wrong is like her milky blue eyes was the only one I picked up on

and like perfect hands but it's not. I think there's some stuff about her being thin, like compared to Glenda like their different shapes. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, again, not to not to keep going back to the early days. But this would have been a very different description in the first 10 discol for some reason. Which is just not hygienic when making pies. Guys, don't wear a bikini while making pies. What she had went beyond beauty.

It was a sort of distillation of beauty that travelled around with her, uncoiling itself into the surrounding ether. I've been reading Welcome to the OC, the oral history, which is this really great book Alan Sappham all just released at the end of last year. And the whole thing's really interesting. There's tons of interviews with all the writers and cast and producers and everyone who made the show. But all the description of Juliet really remind me of in this book when everyone talks about when they first cast Misha Barton and how she was just so ridiculously pretty. I know I know I've had a lot of places doing it. There's like, there's an anecdote from, yeah, especially when she was like a 17, 18

and first getting cast on the show, she was just this absolute ethereal model beauty. There's like an anecdote from one of them, like're like, yeah, no, we've all had like a cast thing out and it was before the show had come out. So no one knew who all these people were yet because we've mostly cast unknowns. And I was, you know, stood there with her and these two girls came running up and asked to take a picture. And I said, to the girls, you know, oh, where'd you recognize her from? So we don't, she's just so pretty. Yeah. Oh, so I felt like there's a lot of that in the description of Julia, which does mean I'm now just imagining her as Marissa in the OC. That'll work, I think. Yeah.

Yeah, it's another lovely, again, to draw slight comparison to Moving Pictures. That's a bit, Moving Pictures was kind of a wizard book, wasn't it? Yeah, it was in the art. It was the introduction of Ponder Stevens is in the impetus. Of course it was. Yeah. But yeah, it's that same kind of star quality thing, right? Yes. It's this, you know, magic has entered the world. Juliet is an avatar of something, not in quite such a blatant way as ginger.

But it is very much. Yeah. But yeah, this isn't entirely normal. No, there's something more to it's that and then she's dating people like rotten Johnny So it's like a logical extension of the Jack syndrome thing from thud. Yeah Yeah, no b nobs extended edition. Yeah Except unfortunately, they're not as nice as no b nobs apart from Tre obviously, who is not the Nobby Nobs of this scenario. No. No relation. And all the other one. You get these moments, she's doing these things like insistently parenting other opinions.

So she's like, oh, go back to where he came from. And none of it sticks, you know, she says go back to where he came from and Glenda says it sticks, you know, she says, go back to where he came from. And Glenda says, that'd be trickle my own. She's like, Oh, they're on a K football team. I guess I don't hate them. Yeah. And Glenda's frustrated with them, but she doesn't explain why, like, maybe it's wrong or she didn't have a conversation about it. She just, you know, Glenda does this stuff for us. She she used to play with dolls for her. I think she remembers. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. She opens the door for her and everything. I think if I haven't read

her head this time, but if I remember correctly, we get a bit of a, a realization at some point, don't we? Yes. But yeah, yeah. But so when she slips, Trev, the, the favor, the little badge, it's like possibly the most assertive thing she's ever done for herself. It's a really great moment, even if it is, you know, the first thing she's done, she stood up for herself for the sake of a boy, but it's better than now.

Yeah, I mean, you know, we can go too far with the anti-romance thing in books when it's, you know, it's an in the stars thing. This one, isn't it? Yeah, obviously, it's also there's a play on Romeo and Juliet here, their rival football teams, which are described as both alike in villainy, which is two football teams, both alike in villainy, in Fair Ankh Moorpork, where we lay our scene. When football grudge breaks to new mutiny and uncivil kicking makes civil hands unclean. Perfect. There we go. I'm not going to start talking about the fateful loins because it's going to get weird.

Smeams. Smeams. I don't want to go from loins to smeams. From loins to Smeams. The natural progression. There's another just very fun, very well written character, as we said. He's so aware of his own importance. It doesn't occur to him that the wizards could just step outside and from the teaming crowds hire another man capable of climbing ladders with pockets full of candles. He was irreplaceable just like every

other candle made before him. Yeah. I sometimes worry that that's me. And it's sort of, oh yeah, I mean obviously they're doing something important, but the candles lad, it's really about the candles. Well you wouldn't be able to see. And he says to Nutt, want of ambition is the curse of the labouring class, which I'm kind of putting a pin in now to talk about when we get into some of the big thematic stuff next week. So, from Smeems, let's move slightly further up the University ladder.

Rocketing up the Step ladder. To the Arts Chancellor, let's talk about Rid Cully. Yay, oh we get new Rid Cully lore dropping. More Rid Cully lore, just more Rid Cully. Love it. More Rid Cully, Rid Cully all the time. So, the Dean has left and gone to work at a different University. Traitor! Traitor, which was a terrible thing to say to work at a different university. Loretta! Loretta!

Which was a terrible thing to say to two dimples in leather. The little detail about the university being like someone's dog as in the mood reflects that of its master. The university vibe being very much dependent on whether it was in a good mood or not. And so Ponda's looking at these traditions to kind of keep him distracted. Yeah. And the teen thing. Which actually the university may like a dog is nice when you remember Granny borrowing

the university. Oh, of course, yeah. And sort of feeling like the building had an overwhelming urge to have its tummy scratched. Yes. Oh, I'd forgotten that. Oh, lovely. It all nicely ties back in together. There's also, Ridicully gets one of my favourite moments, which is after he gets a kick of the can and he sends it absolutely flying and then Ridicully

walked on sedately while the years fell back on him like snow. Oh, that was gorgeous. Yeah. That was a beautiful moment. Yeah, learning about his granddad being like a and like the constant tripping up of the the other faculty there like accidentally sliding off his granddad. Yeah. But yeah, he was like, he was a prize fighter. He was, he was this, he was that, uh, oh, you know, but some of him and me and everyone looking at his huge fucking hands like, me and everyone looking at his huge fucking hands like, yeah, anyway. Yeah. But we all know that red color is from a slightly different stock to the rest of them. But I love I love some of the little moments of admiration from the author he gets in here like, not not trembling even a little

bit when Fetnari brings up the football like he had been he had been arch chancellor in the days where to you know, building cut the wrong time means you're going to get stuff crocodile to the back of the head. Yeah. I think that's how that went. And also just the mention that he's got half a mile of trout screaming stream in his study. Oh yeah. The the dimensions that everybody's opening in their

offices is a fun little detail. How many of them got the idea from the last continent when they all? Oh, yeah. Because that one's so well. Yeah. I mean, the wizards are the type to suffer through that and go, yeah, no, obviously, that's what we should be doing. Absolutely. As long as there's no pineapples. As long as there's no pineapples. As long as there's no pineapples.

Senior Angler. Bad taste, that man. So, Ponda. Ponda Stibbins now has 12 jobs and I meant to go back and list them all, but I decided I did not have the energy. Yeah. So, I've delegated it to Ponda Stibbins and he's going to get it back to me. He's being referred to just as master of traditions. We don't, I think most people know that the master of traditions is obviously going to

be Ponda because Ponda gets all the jobs. And he's taken the job on specifically to keep Ridcully distracted. And because the last one was found very dead. Very dead. But very healthy, you know, for a part of dust, stable. It'd be worse. He starts asking Ridcully about nut and he actually stands up to Ridcully, you know, Ridcully saying, you know, sort of don't worry about it. That simply will not do.

Ridcully swayed backwards like a man subjected to an attack by a hitherto comatose sheep. Well, quite. You can only imagine the Ridcully likes them a little more after this. You can. Further down on that same page, Ridcully gets a reminded reminder of the demon again and says, how sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless Dean, which is another Shakespeare reference as a reference to King Lear. How sharp within a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child. But that ponder also wins even more of Rick Kelly's admiration doesn't he because he says like, Oh, yeah, I got offered a job there as well. And Rick Kelly is like, Oh, how much did they offer you? And I was like, I didn't ask.

Yeah. Rick Kelly's like, Oh, good man. Good man. Good man. Anyway, here's some terrifying news. As requested. Um, and then wizards comma other. Wizards comma other.

We've got some lovely job titles and moments. Oh, good. I'm glad you got this. Professor of Recon-dite phenomena. I love that one. I love that one because he's the one who gets the line. They're deciding what snacks they want to order up after the megapode chase. I could toy fit.

Recon-dite ones, I would hope. I could toy fitfully with a little fruit. Yes, I could. Now, he needs a little fruit. Yeah, I could toy fully. Now he needs a shea's lung. You can never go out lounging when no one's around. Anguishing. The egregious professor of... She's lung, she's lung.

No, I thought that was him. On the shea's lung, on the shea's lung. On the lung. The egregious professor of grammar and usage who made me think of you for no reason. No, just a wild associations. Yeah, she was not for you. And we get a bit more, Dr Hicks gets a bit more expanded here as the, uh, doing the officially evil stuff.

Oh, it's fun, isn't it? It's a little bit, um, croly, isn't it? Yeah, the synths of croly. And I have to do the bad things. That's my, that's my role. And it's very low stakes evil. Apart from, um, putting flyers around around productions and people's focus. That's just fucking wrong.

Yeah. Evil. Nasty. And then bloodlose, miscellaneous And then blood loads, miscellaneous. Blood loads, miscellaneous. Well, we this the first time I think we get like any character from the blood loads as opposed to them just sort of being terrifying figures in the background for the wizards. Yeah, so it's one of them called was it frankly, Otomy or something? You've got Alph Nob's No Relation and then yeah, Frank Otomy who's the nasty one who pops into the kitchen, he's referring to the wizards pointies.

Coming from otomy, it was an invitation to greasy conspiracy. Very good, isn't it? Yuck. This is sort of unlikable by everyone's Gggh, very good, isn't it? Yuck. It's a sort of unlikable by everyone-ness about him. That's very good writing. And it's interesting that this is like a hereditary position that we learn. And I like the details that the wizards just get. This kind of low level fear of them for either, because they are an entity of childhood fear. Yes, it's great. So Vesinari, not a blood low.

Not a blood low. On good form, I'm going to say. On good form today. He's on good form. I think starting a bad project in an own sailing way. Yeah, everything about the football happens, football happens to be very well timed. And he, Vesanori gets the really nice rant about the word cunning. He's talking about a nut, a red curly and Rick Kelly says, you know, Smeams calls that calls not cunning.

And we need cunning in people. We have a street of cunning artificers. And we need cunning in people. We have a street of cunning artificers. The context of the word, cunning, artful, sly, deceptive, shrewd, astute, cute on the ball, and indeed art, a word of any praise and any prejudice. Cunning is a cunning word. It is. I know that coming off the back of both of them going, yes, we know the power of words, that they're arguing, but the power of context. Yes.

It's an important thing. And we get a bit of cunning in a book or two's time, don't we? A little foreshadow there. We do. We'll come back to that particular word, which I enjoy very much. I have to be careful whenever I use the word, because there's obviously the silly spoonerism of what a cunning stunt. Yeah, I think particularly we've got to stop describing stunts that way. We can say clever.

No, clever might have the same problem. Anyway, moving on from Spoonerisms to Andy and the Timwell massive pussy, which is probably massive posse. Thank you. No, sorry. I meant, um, I also like a little bit more lore on that now. I am a lot of dot dot dot relationship. Now, nobody's joined the dots.

I just like that line. And there's a nice, um, yeah. Glenn is thinking about the fact that Juliet really deserves a princess, like which I guess would be veterinary, but no one knows. That doesn't seem right. Yeah. No one knows what side of bed he gets out on or if he gets out of bed at all or if he goes to bed at all. Which is a nice. A very gentle innuendo isn't it? I like it as an innuendo. There's nothing judgemental in the innuendo.

Yeah. Don't know if you're A, don't know if you're straight, don't know if you're Ace. Whatever, probably not right if you're Juliet. Probably not. Anyway, yeah, sorry. So, Andy, who's a very carcer-ish. I was about to say carcer-like. Yeah. Yeah, baby carcer. He's got the mad eyes and tea time and yes, this return to the MadEye villainy, which I find particularly frightening and therefore enjoy in these contexts. And it's fun because there's so much going on in the book that you don't need Andy, but I think he's a really fascinating villain to have.

He's a really good catalyst of a villain. Yeah, and I think he adds that edge to the shove that is more reflective of kind of the football who are looking at some reality of, you know, some real violent, awful stuff in amongst the camaraderie and, you know, the dental brals in the street, whatever. And there are some right, you know, any culture of violence, even if it's, you know, casual, almost fun violence, is always going to have one or two people who just really fucking enjoy hurting people. Yeah. And bring something a bit sharper than everyone else does. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's like, there's meant to be obvious round world parallels

with like the football teams and the rivalries and stuff. But then yeah, there's also the Andes of it all. Loretta Bringing a cutlass to a stick fight, kind of. Sarah Yes. When they all sort of start heading into the shove when they first meet up with him. And someone sort of says, yeah, let's go. And then looks Andy and sort of it was always important things were all right with Andy. Loretta Yeah. His mood is definitely going to affect your whole day in a very different way to recalibrate.

In the stall-up confrontation where Nutt gets hurt and obviously the watch gets involved, again, it's a really different perspective on the watch from obviously from a watchbook but even from like a moist book and how he deals with them. I like the detail that they get referred to as the old Sam quite a lot. Yes, yeah, yeah. The watch was not inclined to get involved in Ali scuffles, but out in the open they had to do something in case the taxpayers complained. And since Tidecoppers didn't like having to do something, they did it again hard, so with any luck they wouldn't have

to do it again any time soon. Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of not the watch that like we know as Fines' watch, but it's also not unbelievable. No, exactly. You get the folk, during the watch books, you generally have to focus on the good watchmen. But at this point, we've got dozens and dozens of little coffers running around, and there are always going to be bad ones. And yeah, Trev's kind of reluctance, but eventually going up to one and

seeing at least it's haddock. It's one of the good ones. And a little blue John revisited. Yes. Morning, blue John. And obviously, Angra turns up as well. And she is very like just I am not happy. I'm done with this shit. Yes. And I have very little patience for you. I've got other things to do. Yes. The football hooliganism thing is something that is pervasive enough that I know a lot about it and I know who you are. And I can smell all of you about and I know you by smell now. And you just fucking give it a break because I'm busy. While looking very, very closely at his throat. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's a contradiction that the watch aren't totally helpful in this book.

But it's definitely another facet of it when you see it from this angle and arguably from the class stater as well. Yeah. And a little lawn cameo is always welcome in the watch house, of course. And it always delights me when Dr. Lawn turns up. Can you send me them when they're actually ill, please? Make sure that they are. Yeah. If you're going to send me someone who's dead, just check things like fucking heartbeat, anything like that.

Okay, good. Thanks. I do like actually another well-building thing, veterinary's policy that if it takes an eagle to bring you back, then you were dead and therefore it's a murder, even if you're alive and walking around. Yeah, interesting little legal niche there. Yes. Right, I haven't marked any locations

because we're in Echmore Park. We're in Echmore Park. There are some locations, but we can look at them next time where we don't have a million new characters to look at. So many things. I love this book. Yeah. All right, little breakdown.

Yes. Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. Beds. So we get this nice thing where a lot of characters get introduced with what their bedrooms are like. Which we've had before. I can't remember if it was beds but it was something like this that we had in a book recently

and I pointed out it was a motif I liked and I can't for the life of me remember what book it was or what the motif was. But there was something along these lines and I couldn't be on the scale through all of my notes for the last few books and find it. Absolutely fair. So for listener remembers. Please. Aunters on elite motif.

Which sounds like it should be a nice bit of stationary, right? It does. So Ridcully has an eight poster bed with a built-in bar and library, Goals. Everyone else who gets intro'd with their bed, the new characters, which is nice. It's a nice way to bring them in very quickly, so Travis is anywhere. Glenda has her Iron Bedframe, Bodice Rippers, and Mr. Wobble, the three-eyed bear, who is their former and lighter than the average bear. Really great detail.

Juliet has her cheap princess bed that is now propped off on barrels, which says so much in one go. Yeah, heartbreaking. And Mr. Nut was seven years old before he found out that sleeping for some people involved a special piece of furniture. So yeah, just really great. Great but erasing. I've seen that a lot. Yeah. If your bed could reflect you as a person somehow, what kind of extras would it have? 8.5.

I think we've got a red collar and a library. Yeah. We're going full red collar, are we? Oh, I'm going absolutely full. I mean, maybe not the half a mile of trout stream, but I think bar, library, TV that comes up out at the end. This isn't really reflecting my personality. This is just what I really want from a bed.

Yeah, you are also quite tired right now. I am really tired. Let's not have any thinking about beds. Oh, you need a mosquito net. I needed making a mosquito net because I got a new bed. Right, sorry. Similes, you like those? I do and love them and practice it better every book I've ever. So my favourite in quite long time, with a sump that caused pigeons to explode away like a detonating daisy, the librarian landed on his chosen rooftop. Ooh, that's a good one.

That's a lovely simile. Love that. I was got Mr. Otomy cleared his throat causing his red Adam's apples to bob up and down like an indecisive sunset. We've got the intensity of nuts outburst to be like opening an oven door. It was a mercy hair hadn't pristled, which isn't quite as poetic but is very effective. I've used the word evocative too much today. What's another word for evocative? Don't ask me. Sorry. Yes, that's unkind. Yes. I've used the word evocative too much today. What's another word for evocative? Don't ask me.

Sorry, yes, that sounds kind. And finally, sometimes arguing with her friend was like punching mist. That's a very good one. Yeah, I did like it. So, how? The megapode. Yay. So, first up, I do want to say, I'm pretty sure the megapode sequence was written for

something else that was meant to be like the gnarly ground sequence that was in the sea and little fishes and then it was taken out. Yeah, dragged out of the pit. It's in a life with footnotes, I think it's mentioned in there. Yeah, I had a look. I couldn't find anything about it in life with footnotes. So that's not to say it's not. I just didn't.

It was mentioned that it was dragged out of the pit. I don't think he said where it came from first. Yes. Okay. But I didn't imagine that. But yes, I love the megapode sequence. There is a phrase neither flesh nor found nor good red herring. This thing was all of them plus some other bits of beast unknown to science nightmare or even kebab. So the hunt for the megapode Oh, and Rincewind plays the megapode. Oh, our camio.

Our little Rincewind camio, which is nice because the megapode is a real Australian bird. Is it indeed? It is. There's an Australian bird called the megapode. Well, is it a cowardly, wizardly type? I'm not sure, but he was in the 4x not too long ago. I wasn't the Rincewind, so yeah, perfect casting choice. And apparently the best, the best megap? Arvind Swindh. So yeah, perfect casting choice. And apparently the best mega-hode. Apparently the best mega-hode.

So this is based on the Mallard Hunt, which is a once a century tradition at All Souls College in Oxford, which is just a weird place, which involves people chasing various, they've used a wooden duck on a stick, a decoy duck at one point, someone running around with a live duck on their head. Oh, beautiful.

Yeah, yeah. I'll link to an article that goes into a lot more detail the last time, because this is done once a century, so the last time was 2001. You missed it. We missed it. Now we're going to have to live forever. Just so you can... Just so I can go and look at them do it and be like, God. From... I don't and look at them do it and be like, God.

I don't know if I'm being so mean. I'm sure it was really fun. And on most days I'll be like, that sounds great. It's probably because my electricity bill came through. Oh yeah, that'll do it. I'm going to start us some kind of megapode hunt type tradition. Okay. We'll do it more often than months of century. Yeah, so from Folklore of Discourse, a description of the Mallard hunt in 1801, that for in the morning at Onlook, who in a nearby college watched the proceedings from his garret window, I had thus a full view of the Lord Mallard and about 40 fellows in a kind of procession on the library roof with immense lighted torches which had a singular effect. I'm sure that all who had the gift of

hearing within half a mile must have been awakened by the manner in which they thundered their chorus. Oh, by the blood of King Edward. Because yet there's a fucking song. Of course there's a song. So yeah, I'll link to some stuff in the show notes about that. But England is just like this, guys. We can't, there were Oxbridge is like this. We can't do anything about it. No. I think it was originally, by the way, based on some literal, literal malard in like the

1400s or something, right? Yeah. They're gone missing. Yeah. out in like the 1400s or something, right? Yeah, they're gone missing. And yeah, yeah. As much as the megapode hunt is because there was an unexpected megapode and it was chased with a great hey rumble low. That's basically how the Malo hunt started. And just they were chasing a duck and now they do it once a century and sing. Beautiful. We need a master of the traditions. What like for the podcast?

We need a pond of stibbons. This whole enterprise would have been a lot more organised. We had a stibbons. Shoes, truth. What are them? Get them on. Run around the world. Oh, all right, fine. So the trees can run around. No, I like run around the world before trees has got his boots on one of Fratjits favourites. And in this book, we get a little extension of that metaphor. While having a little internal ramble about the goddess of truth, because trees is beauty and beauty is female.

Yeah, yeah, don't tell me to go run around the world. Well, I'm saying I'm the least I'm just predicting truth upon you. Okay, yeah. Now, I was the least female. But you have beauty. I don't have to I don't have to subscribe to this thing that only female. No, yeah, no, Ridgally, stopping weird. Yeah. Yeah, Ridgally, he's trying his best. He is. You can see, oh, that was a nice little moment where he like corrected himself from some horrible comment about dwarves in his head. They got mentally corrected himself. And then later on, when Ponda whispers in his ear is like, all right, no, okay, maybe one or possibly two of the staff do wear garters. But that's not the point. And you know, it

would be funny our world if we're all the same. Very cute. Boomer trying his best vibes. Anyway, indeed, as a goddess, she would have lots of shoes, and that's many choices. Comfy shoes for home truths, hobnil boots for unpleasant truths, simple clogs for universal truths and possibly some kind of slipper for self-evident truth. And then of course course we had the slight extension of the truth metaphor going on to, he decided to go for the simple truth and you know, the truth and nothing but the truth, which meant he didn't have to do honesty. Oh, that read culley.

And what kind of truth do you think Doc Martens would be? The plain truth. Plain truth. The plain truth. Flimsy's truth because they don't last the way they used to. Alright, good old Doc, but I don't see any. Oh yeah. Well, it's boots. Tiffany boots.

Tiffany boots. That's the good plain truth. Sorry. Please carry on. No, it's, you've gone from truth to beauty, specifically beauty. Oh, which? Yes. gone from truth to beauty, specifically beauty. Oh, yes. So this is Juliet rising from the peas, putting cart after Trevor saved her life. And this is a footnote. In fact, Juliet's rising from beneath the cart passed relatively unnoticed by all except an art

student. It was almost blinded by light at the spectacle. And many years later, painted the picture known as beauty arising from the peas putting cart attended by cherubs, carrying hot dogs and pies. It was widely regarded as a masterpiece, although no one could ever work it out exactly what the hell it was all about. But it was beautiful and so it was true. Oh. Anyway, what a lovely painting to imagine. What a lovely painting to imagine. And it was beautiful and so it was true, which just nicely loops everything together.

It does, doesn't it? And if only I'd realised that. Speaking of beauty, truth and pleasing scansion. Power tree. Truth is beauty. Which is one of those weird things where the first time I ever heard that poem reference was on The Simpsons and in the context of it being disgusted at military school so in my head it's just... Giddy drood sir! Giddy drood sir! Yes, me saying weird! I was clearly like the specific era of Simpsons we both grew up with. I was about to tangent. Poetry.

Tangent on my podcast. Fonda Stevens won't hear of it. Berser! Yeah, Berser's suspicious, that's suspiciously absent. Much like his knowledge of the decimal point. Fonda's murdered him. I don't think he's murdered him. I think he's put him somewhere. So yes, hopefully somewhere safe. Put him somewhere nice and padded. Yeah. Um, nut has looked into poetry in his spooning knowledge into his head

phase and his photo. Unfortunate term of phrase. Carry on. There's lots of stuff I really love about nuts, like sort of discovery and learning. The wonderful bit with the librarians talking to the blacksmith about the philosophers he's found and the blacksmith kind of with the permanent dirty grin about it. And the obvious fallacy joke, which is never not funny to me. Yeah. But on poetry, she laughed and said it was a frivolity, although quite helpful as a tutorial on the use of vocabulary, scansion, rhythm and effect as a means to an end to

it, getting a young lady to take all her clothes off. Yeah. Not quite sure why you would want that, but okay. When he's giving the poem to Trevor and says, you've got to read it by yourself, you can't with her there. She's got to read it by herself, you can't be there. Her clothes might fall off. I'm sorry, I can't do anything about it, apparently it happens. Unseemly. And this idea of, there's no hanky-panky promise, but it does also imply that should hanky or panky occur, you won't be found wanting. Yes, exactly. Which is partly why I ended on that bit.

It's a lovely bit of joy to me, and I like taking the piss out of poetry, having been a very serious poet in my time. Oh, very serious. And also a very unserious one, at times. Also very unserious at times. Speaking of serious things, talking points, Francine, talk to me about your big thoughts. Well, speak of poetry in fact, Joanna. There's more a foundation of a big thought, but laying the foundation for the seam of kindness and worth. I think it's lovely seeing the building blocks in the first third here. And indeed, the first couple of lines, I sing but not of love for love is blind, but celebrate instead the meuse of kindness. Not obviously being it is implied he's writing this about Glenda, because Juliet, what was it,

some kind of ghost? It's very pretty ghost. Yes, yes, yes. But Glenda, those elbows, those dimples, those pies, those pies. How old is that? I've never really got a grasp on this, by the way. I don't really have a grasp on that, like, although Glenda and Juliet at the same age, and I would like put Juliet like late teens, early 20s and Trevor's the same thing, Glenda is somehow not. Although that's obviously a bit more intentional yet not no idea. Like cheese or wine. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. But yes. So this right away, we can say this is this is what not values and this is a big part of Glenda's personality and valuing kindness over love and over beauty. And this coming from somebody who's have had to learn about worth from scratch is quite interesting. And so he's been taught specifically, but it has also come

upon this kind of in his own head, I think, of what being worthy is. The words of the lady echoing his head a lot and some of them are smile at people, like them, be helpful, accumulate worth. accumulate worth. And this idea that kindness kind of comes from what do I mean, like a conscious choice to like people. I think I've gone on before about how I like the idea of love. And I guess in this case, kindness, although it's more obvious with kindness, but being as much of a verb as it is an noun, like you make a decision to do loving or kind things. And that leads to better things. I think also you get the inklings of something we'll get more into in the next section, perhaps, or maybe a second after, the kind of dark and inverted commas side of kindness, the kind of people pleasing. And Glenda remembering her mom saying she was a saint

that woman. No, no, sorry, someone else says I remember your mom, she was a saint that woman always had a helping hand for everyone. Yes, and didn't they grab said Glenda to herself, she was lucky to die with all her fingers. Yeah. And Glenda, despite that is kind of stepping into her mother's shoes very much. At the same time, I think you can see how she kind of has this subtle manipulation through kindness going. And I didn't think that's at all conscious. I think that's just something a lot of people please us learn without realising it. And it kind of in the worst case scenario, maybe not the worst case scenario, but in a more extreme version of this, it comes out in that trope of like the, oh, I'm such a

martyr. I do this for you. I do that for you. Think crazy ex-girlfriend. Yeah, I do all this for you. I didn't ask you. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's mad. All of this is mad. Your whole point loops back right around to your quote, the librarian, kindness over love. Exactly. Banana pie is over beauty. Yes. I take a banana pie over a pretty lady any day. No, I don't believe you.

Depends on the banana pie. Depends on the pretty lady. Depends on the time of day. And yeah, just a just I mean, I mentioned, um, Rid Kelly's like self correction as well. But I think this is another lovely example of, and usually you get it in the watchbooks, as we've said, with the new species and everything. But we've got another real somatic dig at bigotry from Pratchett in this.

And it's another one of those things he's just getting better at as time goes on. Just a, Hey, how about you're not a dick to somebody you don't know anything about? How about that? Why don't we not make you assumption? What if we weren't all complete twats to each other all the time? Shrug, shrug maybe worth a go. Also, moving smoothly on to the main focus of the book, which is like a foot to the ball. Yes, poor boy's fun. Well, we were looking at the Megapody stuff and the folklore of Discworld. There was also a chapter on football. And I've been reading quite a lot about the history of football because I've been reading the QI all to play for, I think

they've called it, but the QI book is sports and that was Anna Shulence, Ginn James Harkin, who too are the presenters on No Such Thing as a Fish, which I don't have stopped going about. But I've written that and it's good book. You can tell it's a good book because I've read a book about the history of sport. But Jackie Simpson. Yes, yes. Not Wilson, not Wilson. I was talking about the kind of the historic game of football and how similarly a lot of people in power have disliked it because of, well, really because of its working class origins, but also because of the misrule and the disorderly nature of it, the violence and the fact it was played on a Sunday.

It is nothing but beastly fury and extreme violence, said Sir Thomas Elliott in 1531. A bloody and murderous practice said the Puritan propagandist Philip Stubbs in 1583. And then that went into a long graphic detail about the violence of it. And then interestingly, and something I do want to read quite a lot more about, but these huge games that used to be played. So on public holidays like show of Tuesday, credit and directors from the book here, crowds would come for miles around from annual mega match, sometimes in open fields, but often in the streets of a city or town. And a game could easily last all day. There were no rules, no limit on the number of players in each team. They would all gather at the town centre and somebody

would throw the ball into middle of the crowd, which immediately turned into a tightly packed, heaving mass of bodies, shoving, kicking and headbutting at one another, while somewhere down out of sight the ball might or might not be advancing slowly towards one of the goals. Today's rugby scrum is a faint, feeble image of this which was the mighty sway or hug. Oh, cool. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And you've been looking more at football in the context of this book, I think.

Yeah. And like, as we said at the start, neither of us are massive football fans. But there's something really fascinating about it. And I love this idea of the shove, this unspoken human connection within a crowd. So you start getting with the football of it all. You have these attendees and these rivalies, the Dolly Tissues and the Dimwell. And I felt like Dimwell especially is meant to evoke the ideas of Millwall, which is sort of a British team, infamous for violence and...

Yeah, there were a couple of films, which his names I should really be able to remember, because my ex was super into all the football and football, religion stuff. Green Street maybe, which I would recommend to anyone who wants to know about that kind of culture. As we see it, Millwall for me is this Dylan Moran has burned a black trying to get himself beaten up in like the pilot episode of Black Books. So yes, our two teams are like in Villainy. I love the explanation of who shouts for who, which is this complicated idea of shifting alliances based on proximity to your team and anti the other team. But yeah, there are lots of teams like that have closer like one on one rivalry. So

like Newcastle and Sunderland's obviously the rivalry I grew up with we don't like Americans because we're Geordies. Which I still feel very... Your best joy reaction. And then you have things like Manchester United, Manchester City and Norwich and Ipswich is like a local one for us as well. Yeah. Although they're fairly chill. I've got like, you know, friend groups, some Norwich and some Ipswich supporters and it's mostly just them gently ripping each other. Oh yeah, like a colleague of mine left recently and he's an Ipswich fan and he got bought a

bunch of Norwich merch. I was like a joke as he left. And like, well he was like, ah, disgusting or whatever. Obviously he didn't like, not anyone over at Ipswich. That would be very weird. So you get these great descriptions of the people who do and don't go to the football. The women fell into two categories. There's been tugged there by the ties of blood or prospective matrimony after which they could stop pretending this bloody mess was in any

way engrossing. And elderly women of a sweet old lady construction who bald indiscriminately in a rising cloud of lavender and peppermint screams of get him down and kick him in the nuts and similar exhortations. LESLIE KENDRICK These were the ones on top of the barricades. LESLIE KENDRICK Yes, I was going to say that's the same flavour of old women. LESLIE KENDRICK We've got a few examples of this through Discworld. Always a delight to come across. And Trev has this little realisation. He's had this thing where the eagle was kind of

trying to warn him about nut. And afterwards he sort of thinks like, oh, he doesn't even go to the football. And then he captures himself. It's a really good moment. He noticed that last thought go past. What he tried to tell himself that someone who didn't watch football wasn't a real person. He couldn't think of a proper answer. He was amazed. He'd even asked the question. Um, that's another good third thoughts moment.

It's the Ridicully catching himself sort of that you mentioned earlier. Yeah. Um, but it's that the football is so, so intensely part of the lives and you think about how Juliet briefly does the go back to where we came from. Oh, trick of mine, they're an all right team. What do you mean he doesn't care about football? Like it's so alien that it's not an intense part of these people's lives. Yeah.

Because you have someone like Glenda who doesn't really care and sort of absentmindedly puts a fight that's something around a wrist or a scarf on just because that's what's done. Yeah, because you shout for your team, don't you? Yeah. And you get obviously a little football you make like the Who Ate All The Pies thing is a reference to like a football shout. Who Ate All The Pies. Who Ate All The Pies. away all the pies. Mr. Nutt, do Mr. Nutt. There was a really great conversation on, I think it was like the casual UK subreddit. Talking about the difference between like American sports

like chants and UK ones and America's very like go team, go team and UK is like, so we've taken this scandal that happened less than 24 hours ago and we've set it to with this classic core all piece and somehow the entire crowd does know it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There are songs I still can't hear without hearing like the alternative football lyrics that my dad used to sing.

Or even just the ones that sung word for word in the stadium. But you hear them in that tone, say like, I'm forever blowing bubbles. It always sounds like a football crowd. Yes. Nice town, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the librarian sums it up, the librarian could smell us,

and the game, seen from outside, was humanity. Yeah. And so you start going into the shower, and although I've never been to a proper football match, and the game, seen from outside, was humanity. And so you start going into the show, and although I've never been to a proper football match, there's something very relatable about this idea of the crowd and this unspoken human connection that it's kind of weird to admit to,

yeah, for us it's gigs, especially festivals. Getting pushed right in the front and the mosh pits. But do you remember as well, just sitting around the campsite at festival and a shout of waaay and it would kind of echo through and come through your bit. And the way it gets described in this pushways shove and something in this spoke to nut came up through the soles of his feet and the palms of his hands and slid into his brain with a beguiling subtlety, warming him, stropping away from himself and leaving him no more than a beating part of the living, moving thing around him. A chant came past it and started somewhere at the other end of the game

and whatever it had been once it was now just four syllables of raw from hundreds of people and many gallons of beer. And as it faded it took the horn belonging feeling away with it, leaving a hole. And he describes the crowd later as the lonely soul trying to reach out to the shared soul of all humanity and possibly much further. And I really love the way this book, especially in this opening, does not come down on a side of anything. It does not say, you know, it looks at the violence, it looks at the fact that the shove is something that Tre feels the need to get out of, that the world is much bigger than this horrible tiny thing they've trapped themselves in, but at the same time, it's completely

loving and gentle when it talks about that wonderful feeling within the shove. Yeah, absolutely. And because it's disc-world as well, it does have a touch of magic to it, to the point where Tre acknowledges it as well and and says you don't speak about it. It is a physical magical phenomenon. And it's particularly poignant for, for not and for Trivac, I guess, but you know, mainly for not being that belonging. There's something that he's never had and desperately wants and- And he has not had to prove his worth to this crowd.

Yeah, yeah, he just is. He's there, so he is. He shoves to be helpful. Yes. With the piece putting a cross ahead of him. He's been casually selling as he goes. Oh, it was such a great moment. Anyway, I don't have like a beautiful conclusion

because fuck, when do I? Have you got an obscure reference finial for me france in Fletcher When they are talking about football before they go to the football I think nut says but is it not a game like spillikin's or halma or thud and a thud we have talked about A length I think I believe we've mentioned it

Once or twice Once or twice So I looked up the other two and they're both real world ones And I said we have talked about a length, I think I believe we've mentioned it once or twice, once or twice. So I looked up the other two and they're both real world ones. Spillikins is basically pick up sticks. And anyone who doesn't know it's a game in which players try to remove sticks using other sticks in a pile that are in a pile of sticks. And we make our own fun, guys. Jane Austen fun fact had a personal set which she valued rather a lot. And so I'll link

to that because why not. And then helmet is a strategy game from late 1800s. It's kind of a 16 by 16 checker board. It's got two or four players. It was released as Chinese checkers at some point, very misleadingly because it's neither checkers nor Chinese. Right, that might be what some people know as. And yeah, I don't look as far into that because I was looking at Jane Austen's spilkins. Spilkins. And it's a better word. It's very fun to say. Amazing. Thank you for that. All right. I think that's everything we're going to say about part one of unseen Academicals. Well done you your voice is still going. Yeah, not totally dead yet We will be back next week

With part two which starts where this ends ends on page 354 in the Corgi paperback with the line take me to Mr. Nut right now Yeah, this is the longest of right now. Yeah, this is the longest of the discos. That is usually where they end. That is usually where they end. It's not where this ends. In the meantime, do you listen to that until next time. You can join our discord link down below. You can follow us on Instagram at the true shall make you for it on Twitter and please go at make you for it pod on Facebook at the true

shall make you for it. Join us I brought it out slash TT SM way if email us your thoughts, queries, castle snacks and football chance. the true shall make you for that. Join us, I've read it, r slash t t s m y f. Email us your thoughts, queries, castle snacks and football chance at the true shall make you for that. If you want to support us financially, go to patreon.com. For the true shall make you for that, we exchange our hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense, which I'm aware I owe you, but guys, I mean, I'll shut up. And until next time, dear listener, don't let us detainee. Actually, Joanna's best Jody absent comes out after a few points. So one day we might be able to arrange that life. Put me drunk near a north and it'll happen.