The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 150: Dodger Pt. 3 (Are You Metaphoring This Metaphor?)

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Dodger”. Rats! Rings! Shiny Shoes! Find us on the internet:Email: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Things we blathered on about:Stottie cake - Wikipedia The Worst Cat - TumblrCrossbones Graveyard201 : Street entertainers in Victorian times – Jeffrey Green. Historian Story of cities #14: London's Great Stink heralds a wonder of the industrial world - The Guardian Tales of the underworld - The GuardianSome Punch cartoons on the subject: 1848, 1849, 1858, 1883 You're Dead to Me, Christmas with Charles Dickens - BBCAlexander Morison - Wikipedia Thomas Monro (art collector) - Wikipedia Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

the Discord's been caught in controversy by discussing where the North is. What's your opinion on that? In England, sorry, I should say. I announced today that unless you've traveled from Scotland, you're definitely North once you've seen the angel. I did visit the home of Greggs. I had Stotties for the first time in ages. I brought a couple of Stotties home with me. Stottie. It's a very specific kind of bread roll that you get up in the northeast. It's not one of those like another word for a bread roll depending on where you are in the country things. It's not a barm. It's not a barm or a bap or a cob or whatever else we're calling it. But they're like

wider and slightly flatter and bigger and they're cooked in a certain way so they rise a bit slower and they have a very distinct texture and I love them and have so far. I haven't managed to recreate them at home yet. I've found a lot of different recipes. It's a very simple bread dough. I think getting the texture right is in how you cook it because it's a... Have you ever had like oven bottom muffins? Maybe. You get them in the supermarket every now and then. It's more like that because the idea is it's cooked in the base of the oven so it's cooked

at a slightly lower temperature with the heat coming more from the bottom and it means it lifts slightly slower so it's slightly chewier as a whole thing. But it's delightful for me. I mean the very very traditional is ham and peas pudding. I won't be doing that. I didn't bring any peas pudding delightful for me. I mean, the very, very traditional is ham and peas pudding. I won't be doing that. I didn't bring any peas pudding home with me. Not hot nor cold? No, no, or in the pot or nine days old. I've never made peas as in peas pudding. I'm not sure I want to start now.

But I will be. I'm not sure I know how to start. I know it's yellow split peas. I might have accidentally made something similar. I've definitely made a split pea soup. Yeah, it's a similar thing. It's some ham, some broth type situation. Jordy hummus. But no, I will be using one of my lovely stotties to make bacon and sausage sandwiches tomorrow. And then I'm sure the other one will end up filled with leftovers from tomorrow's roast dinner. Oh, super. Diving straight back into the big cooking. Did your books arrive?

Nope. Oh, fuck off. Jesus. Nope. Listeners, if you're waiting for an update on my friend's book coming out, I am assured very, very soon it has been delayed, unfortunately, because of a malfunction with the printers, which I have decided to find funny. Yeah, you're very convincing in that. Hilarious. What a laugh. Books are coming. As soon as I have them, the lovely people who've ordered

books from me will have them and also they will be in shops, I believe, of the book variety. Probably not in your local butchers. Worth a shot. Go in and ask. If enough people ask. Yeah, if enough people ask, maybe they'll think, well, maybe there's something in this particular book. Maybe we should stock this. Not a fishmongers. No, that would be silly. No, that would be ridiculous. That Pygmy Hippo that's famous now, that's cute. Yeah, love that. Very big fan of the Pygmy Hippo that's famous now. Do you remember the worst cat blog? The what?

The worst cat Tumblr blog. It was years and years ago, maybe not how many years ago, a few years ago. And it was basically lots of pictures of these pygmy hippos except they were captioned like they were cats. Right. And it was captioned with things like, I just prefer my cat to be less rubbery than this. And like, this is a terrible cat, it needs oiling. Wonderful. Love this. What else has been going on? Are you aware of Gigi on Twitter, the Dr Who thread? I'm side aware of it because I think I've seen you reply or comment on it once or twice, but please explain.

It's so amazing. So someone who's like a big House of the Dragon fan and loves Matt Smith in that show was like, okay, cool. So I'm going to try Doctor Who for the first time, obviously starting with Matt Smith and has just fallen in love with it and has somehow managed to just not be spoiled on really anything about it and is live tweeting the whole experience. And it's just so wholesome and wonderful to watch. It's made me really want to rewatch Doctor Who. I can see managing to not have spoilers actually to be fair. I feel like if you're not on Doctor Who Twitter, when's it going to come up?

Exactly. And all the stuff that spoilers is like, yeah, it's only stuff that's like talked about within Doctor Who, but seeing them react to things like the reveal of who River Song is. And they just watched, they've got a friend who is a Doctor Who fan who's helping them curate a watch and so sent them back to watch a few pre-Matt Smith episodes and they just watched the big anniversary one where it's Matt Smith and David Tennant and John Hurt. So they've only got one Matt Smith episode left and I'm genuinely concerned for this complete stranger on the internet and how they're going to cope with that.

Who was after Matt Smith? Peter Capaldi. That's right. Because I got reminded of possibly one of my favourite moments in television ever, which is in the anniversary episode because it had already been announced that Peter Capaldi was going to be the next Doctor and they do a bit where all of the doctors across time are doing the thing and they're like, it's all 12 of them. And then someone says, no, all 13. And that's just a close up of Peter Capaldi's furious eyebrows.

He does. I've been rewatching some of the thick of it over the last few days. So I love him. I love him very deeply. He's a wonderful man. An angry, angry man he plays. Yes. As far as I know, delightful in real life. Yeah. But I've never heard a bad thing about Peter Capaldi, but he God, he plays angry well. And God, he's got good eyebrows. What's next month? Raising steam. Which will be fun. I'm looking forward to that. World of Poo. Yeah. One thing to say in that tiny voice.

Yes, World of Poo. I'm aware. I can't remember when we were going to do that. That next week? Probably next month. Next month, okay. Because we can talk about Mrs. Branshaw's railway handbook at the same time. That's right. I remember now. All of that, however, is in the future. We are in the current present. Jesus.

The current present, which is now. The current present, which is everything's happening now. Now. Except for you listeners, this is happening two days ago. Yes. And you're listening two days from now. Now I've upset Joanna, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, don't do that to me Francine. I had to walk up a hill all the months upset Joanna, I'm sorry. Yeah, don't do that to me, Francine. I had to walk up a hill all the months. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that happens when you leave the flatlands. They've got hills.

Yeah, it's a shock every time I go to Devon. Also, Google Maps did try and kill us. Oh, yeah? Yeah, the hotel we were staying in was right on the quayside and it's kind of under the bridge. So when we were just halfway across the Titan Bridge, Google Maps was just like, yeah, turn right, you're at your destination. Turning right would have very much put us in a river. Sure.

But I mean, we were technically above our destination. I'm glad you didn't drive into the river. Yes, we successfully didn't drive into the river. And as I didn't drown at the weekend, it's still the weekend, there's still time. Francine, would you like to make a podcast? Yes, let's make a podcast and not drown doing it. Excellent. Hello and welcome to The Truth Shall Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are usually reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one of Simon Chronological Order. I'm Joanna Hagan.

And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part three of our discussion of Dodger. It is. And it's also our 150th episode, Joanna. It is our 150th episode. I cannot believe I've not put a hat on. Right, no spoilers before we crack on. This is a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book Dodger, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series past Snuff, and of course we're saving it any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you, dear listeners,

can come on the journey with us. With a quick stop off in Somerset just to take in the local colour. Absolutely. A little stroll around the Mendips, dear. Little stare into the skies, darling. Wonderful. Love a little stare into the skies. Mouillevaux. Right. I can't think of anything to follow up on, although I'm sure there are plenty.

We'll save them. We'll save them for a rainy day. We'll save them for a rainy day. Francine, do you want to tell us what happened previously on Dodger? Certainly I do. Previously on Dodger. Dodger's danger comes from high places and the demon Barbara Fleet Street is somehow the least of his troubles, but his plan is simplicity itself. With the help of a couple of esteemed friends, he moves his young lady into the care of an aristocrat who has a heart of gold, and rather a lot of it in the coffers too, which always helps. As it happens, Dodger himself has come into a bit of cash which he modestly splashes around in the baths and tailors of London.

Cleaned and dressed and accompanied by Solomon, he dines with gentry, is accosted in the gents and gently shoves Disraeli in the direction of the Suez. Also I think he had a fight in there somewhere which I forgot to mention. There was a little bit of rustling here and there, wasn't there? Right. Well, in this section, which begins at the beginning of chapter 13 and goes all the way to the end of the book. And then a little bit further. And then a little bit further and then sort of a little bit backwards and upside down. Pass through at least one extra dimension, as you do. In chapter 13,

Dodge is tangled in politics and clutching the address of an embassy and under the cover of night and pass an undercover peeler, Dodger goes stealing, grabs documents, unscremes the coach, leaves the mark of Mr Punch and frees the horses before burning the stables. The next morning, the plan begins in earnest. Playing the old lady, he claims the corpse of a lost girl at the coroner's before reincarnating in the sewers, getting advice from Mrs Holland and getting a warning about the outlander. In chapter 14, Dodger and Solomon attend the theatre and Dodger shares his plan. Simplicity agrees and Angela suggests a dash of twelfth night. The next morning, an old woman with a handcart takes a boat ride, collects her

body, distributes potatoes and buys lavender. Dodger positions the body and accepts an invitation from the Peelers for a chat with Bob. Inquiries are being made about the Outlander and Peel would like to know about the documents from the embassy, but Dodger hasn't done, seen or heard nothing. Honest. Honest gov. Honest gov. In Chapter 15, 7pm approaches and it's time for a sewer exertion. Alongside Charlie, Disraeli and Basilgut, there's a handsome young footman of Angela's in attendance. Down below, Disraeli proves himself a toshur and Simplicity Roger finds a ring. And there's the noise of a crowbar as the light dies down. The plan's off and

the group's out. Dodger's not alone. The rats are running and as he pins an intruder, the Outlander makes herself known. Simplicity appears from the shadows and renders the assassin unconscious and Charlie and the police arrive in time to find Dodger distraught over Simplicity's apparent end. After interrogations and handshakes, Dodger takes his still alive love out into the London night. In chapter 16, Dodger gets a job offer and condolences and the next day an old woman and her granddaughter take a coach to Bristol. A young man and a redhead enjoy cheese, cider and the mendips as they learn the local language. Meanwhile, Angela visits Solomon and lets him know the highest authority is taking an interest. Back in London,

Dodger meets Serendipity on a bridge in the Attend de Grave before seeing the entertainments and a summons to the palace comes. There's bows, curtsies, recognition and knighthood and Dodger gets a job. Finally, he has the time of his life in Paris." That's odd. I feel like more stories would end with someone having the time of their life in Paris. Yes, especially if they're skittering through the sewers. A helicopter and loincloth watch. For helicopter, we have the unfortunate case of the twinging screws. Yeah.

It is unfortunate. It is unfortunate, but definitely helicopterish. A more somber helicopter than you. It is unfortunate. It is unfortunate but definitely helicopterish. A more somber helicopter than you. A very somber helicopter. Somber loincloth as well. I've gone for the scandalous choice to wear breeches. Scandalous breeches. Scandalous breeches, yeah. The shape of them. The shape of their legs. Scandalous breeches. Fabric tubes. Horrifying. Quotes. Have we got favourite quotes?

Mine first. We've got some favourite quotes. Yes, you go first. I've got to slip between these bloody windows. He spent half an hour cleaning and chopping vegetables and welcomed it because the attention to detail meant the inner dodger could think about what he was going to do next, which is a short one, but I really enjoy it because it's very, very relatable. I do all my best thinking. You do like talking vegetables and plotting.

Yeah, I do all my best thinking while chopping. Mine is, she seemed very keen to speak like they did in the Somerset accent, which might have been called bucolic because it was slow. It was indeed slow because it dealt with things that were slow, like cheese and milk and the seasons and smuggling and the brewing of fiery liquors in places where the excise men dare not go. And in those places, while the speech was slow, thought and action could be very fast indeed." And I picked that because it's very nicely written then because it kind of ties in with our chat last week about time and place. It also links quite nicely with mine actually, the idea of thinking very fast while

letting something happen slowly. Yeah. Letting your mind do its work while something else is happening. Yes, although I think you do chop vegetables somewhat faster than me. Quite possibly, only if I've remembered to sharpen the knives. Right, let's talk about Dodger then. Okay. Well, we know about all the characters, but I feel like we should probably start with Dodger. So should we start with Dodger as old lady?

Love Dodger as old lady. Six days away from a good wash, warts never before had he seen such terrible warts. Such terrible warts. An awful wig. Dried full teeth. Yeah, I think he really did go full boffo with this. Whatever the round world equivalent of that shop is was definitely found by his French friend. Yes, very much so. Party crazy. That's right, yeah. Party crazy brackets established 1852.

To be fair, that shop feels like it's been there since 1852. Sorry, listeners, this is a shop in our hometown. They're so unhappy whenever you go in. No one is happy in there. There's signs everywhere for it. Like they want customers, but you go in and they don't. They're furious when people shop there. The party shop and everyone's so angry. don't. They're furious when people shop there. The party shop and everyone's so angry. It is your classic sort of a few costumes, couple of masks. I tried to get some decorations for your 30th birthday in there and they looked at me like

I'd like asked for something obscene. I love party crazy. It's a great shop. Favorite place in the world. It is wonderful. Sorry, anyway. It comforts me knowing I know where I can go and buy a pair of glow in the dark eyelashes if I find myself in need of such a thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's nice to support local businesses

when you're buying insane items like that. Yes. As Dodger, I believe would. As Dodger, I believe, supports supporting local businesses. I really like the scene of just handing out as many baked potatoes as possible. Yeah, absolutely. It's very, very Pratchett to be concerned about the old ladies of a situation and also to believe that potatoes can at least temporarily solve.

I really felt the Pratchett rage and I think some of this really came from like the Mayhew book as well. When he's talking about the old women who are sieving through dust in hope of a fathering. Toothless old ladies with that fallen in look to the face that made you think of witches. Yeah. And his footnote, wasn't it? It's quite an unusual footnote in that it directly references the real world. And there are a couple of those in here, aren't there? But there's a few, yes, things were actually like this footnotes. But I felt like the bit of the prajati rage in that one. Yeah, absolutely. And yes, I think he there was an in that interview,

I keep talking about that I linked a couple of weeks ago, he was talking about how yeah, the the make you thing obviously very much influenced he was writing about, and how all the details were so hard to get in and which ones he had to pick. And yeah, because he was just saying like, I find all of these really interesting, but I can't do it justice, because he went to boring the reader with so many things. But I think, I think he did a good balance with it. because he went to boring the reader with so many things. But I think he did a good balance with it. Yeah, I think it's good here. It's not there. Nothing's there just for the sake of being there. No, no. It all serves a purpose. I definitely get his temptation to just keep writing and writing about every little detail

because the book's just so full of everything, just so many interesting things. And yeah, just getting Dodger as like our eyes for it. It's a really fun way of doing it. I like how he did his little prep evening of the potatoes part of it and going and like seeing everyone in the pub and like making sure he's been really nice to exactly the right people. Yeah, and that he's been known and been talked about. sure he'd been really nice to exactly the right people. Yeah, and that he's been known and been talked about. I really like as well, right at the beginning of the section when he goes to the embassy and he runs, and there's this whole section of just sort of he'd liked running because the thief he couldn't arrest was seen dead. Now he ran like he'd never run before. He was running through the streets in what seemed like

a frenzy of acceleration. And then people are blowing the whistles and feeling stupid because Dodger was a rapidly dwindling bit of darkness in a city full of stuff. LW It reminds me of how you run in a dream when it's going well. MG Yes. LW Or a video game. MG We were making some comparison to Dodger and Moist and I think that's that similar thing of that necessary

running that need to be moving. It's a nice contrast to the end of this section where obviously with your quote they go to Somersault and it's slow and they're not running. They're sitting and watching the stars. Yeah, which is the way you run in the countryside. You go hurry and throw, people talk. Not really relevant to anything but just a moment I really liked was Solomon compares Dodger to Abraham and clarifies, not Abraham from Temple, the Abraham who was prepared to sacrifice his son to the Lord and Dodger's response of, well, we are not going to have any of that sort of thing. And Dodger asked, what was it he asked Solomon to explain to God in the end? Oh, the bit about the marriage.

Yeah. Yeah. So do you reckon this would be fine? Because like, obviously, God was not paying attention when those guys got married. Solomon's like, yeah, no, that sounds fine. If it's not, I'll sort of... I'll have a word. A word in his shell like, ah! And yet the moment, the praying moments I really enjoyed. The lack of sign after the first prayer. A little rat, rat on your foot. Yeah, but you don't know if it's a sign or not. And if there was a sign, there should

be a sign on it to show that it was a sign, so you definitely knew it was a sign. And then guessing the actual sign after praying to Closina at the theatre, watching Julius Caesar and Shakespeare apparently providing the handy sign. Yes. There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at the flood leads on to fortune. That does sound pretty bang on. Yeah. A little on the nose if anything.

I haven't watched Julius Caesar. No, I haven't. I haven't read anything really. I'm vaguely familiar with the play but I've never seen a production of it. I should rectify that. Yeah. You don't see it advertised much too. Where we live usually the Shakespeare productions are the outdoors ones and they're always a Midsummer Night's Dream. Yeah, you do get a few that pass through the local theatre but it's more whatever's currently

on the GCSE syllabus, they'll time them around that so then people can take GCSE groups. So, Macbeth and Twelfth Night happen a lot. Ah, Shakespeare. Ah, Shakespeare. Oh, at one point they said, oh, we will need a little Twelfth Night around this plan and I just realised I don't really know the plot of Twelfth Night either. I think the Twelfth Night is then getting Simplicity to dress up as a boy because the plot of Twelfth Night is Viola pretending to be a guy and I love Twelfth. That's one

of my favourite plays I've been to see was that really good production of Twelfth Night that we went to that was slightly mad. Yeah, that was a bit mad. That was the grab the audience up for a tequila drinking contest on stage and hand out pizza. That was a good show. That was fun. There is also a really good national theatre production of Twelfth Night that they did as one of their National Theatre Live things. So I think you can get it on their website. They put a bunch of it up on YouTube during the lockdown. I think they're taking it down again, but you can watch a lot of these on their website.

With Tams and Greg as Marvoglio. That was really fun. She was very good in that. I bet she is a good Shakespearean. Yeah. Anyway, the lady, speaking of praying. With a lady. I like Dodger's sort of description of it because he's not 100% convinced, but he's convinced enough to believe in her and pray to her. And describing it to Basilgirt is, I've never seen her, but when you're by yourself you get a feeling that someone's just walked past and there's a change in the air and then you look down all the rats are running very fast in the same direction.

Which is nice as this sort of semi-belief but also slightly dressed up because he's playing the past a bit with Basilgert. But really a great little foreshadowing moment because then you do get later on, it goes quiet and then all the rats are running in the same direction. And it is a lady. You were Catholic. Did you do much talking to saints instead of God? That's a part of Catholicism I find interesting. Yeah, praying for intercession. So you say, it's not so much you're praying to a saint, but the idea is you're praying for intercession. It's not so much you're praying to a saint, but the idea is you're praying for intercession. So rather than praying to God directly, you're praying to say, Mary

is the popular one, praying to the Virgin Mary for her to intercede with God on your behalf. That's the idea of praying the rosary. That's praying to Mary because you're doing a shit ton of Hail Mary's. LH I think we must have talked on the show before, probably around small gods about all the household gods and things becoming mixed up with saints and stuff a bit later. MG Yeah, when you get the Romans going Roman Catholic. LH Yeah, yeah. The lady reminded me a bit of that, reminded me of like an old pagan god

turned saint later. I wouldn't be surprised if... Yeah, there's hints of that to it. I like it as an idea. I also like the detail of Dodger buying the lady a lovely shiny pair of shoes and dropping them down to the sewer. Yeah, because he's always going on about how he'd hate being barefoot down there. And how she apparently does wear shoes and not boots. She gets to wear nice proper shoes. Yeah. So that was a nice detail. Solomon.

Solomon. Solomon. More like bits of his backstory that we get, including he can read most of the languages in Europe, but not Welsh. Yeah, no not Welsh. Which for Welsh is a challenge. And we're meeting royalty at the end of sort of A, doing the Masonic handshake with Prince Albert. And then yeah, we've had lots of stories about you. King of Sweden tells a good one. So if it was the one about the racehorse in the lodge, unfortunately, it was true.

Love that. Yeah, obviously, again, it's one of those, like it's better not having the details, but you do kind of want a little spinoff. Oh, yeah. I'd read The Adventures of Solomon. Yeah. That sounds like a Bible book though, doesn't it? I also like, because we're reading a Pratchett book, but one, normally if we're reading a Pratchett book with police in, it's the watchbooks and so we're fairly on the police's side. But with this, it's quite nice to have Solomon delivering a line like, I always think one should lie to policemen. This is so very good for the soul and indeed good for policemen. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even in this one, like the police, because we've got the peelers, they're not put across as these bastards. Oh yeah. We're not

anti-police, but we also get nice lines like that. Yeah. It's good to see. And it does remind me a bit of Moist von Lippeck again, doesn't it? There might be a hint of them in Solomon. Yeah, I feel like sort of Solomon and Dodger together make a moist. Worst thing I've ever said on the podcast. Not the worst thing. I'm not squeamish about the word, but it's just, you know, in certain contexts, just adds that thud to the end of a nice sentence, doesn't it? Very cratchety. Oh, and Onan, Dodger, fully explains to the young Queen Victoria,

why Onan is called Onan, and Queen Victoria is amused. She is very much amused. I was very much amused was the actual things she used to say in letters. I don't think there was one instance of her saying, we are not amused. No. Onan is a reference to the biblical Onan from the Old Testament who was ordered to lie with his deceased brother's wife as was the custom of lever at marriage and he did not want to perform his duty because the offspring would not be his in title. Instead, spilled his seed on the ground. Although what he was doing there was the pull-out method, onanism has become a popular phrase for masturbation. Just filling one seed.

Yes. For further information, please see Monty Python, otherwise known as Joanna's Only Sex Education because of the Catholic thing. Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great. Sorry. But yes, so we have a masturbatory dog. Yes. Yeah, well, I'm guessing he humped somebody's leg. Yeah.

Or similar. Quite a few somebodies, I would assume. But he did get nice bone for lint, is that what you say? And I am very happy for his wonderful bone. Yeah. Or for him and his wonderful bone. Anyway, I'm not sure we need to talk about masturbation and wonderful bone in the same sentence. Simplicity. Simplicity or? Or serendipity.

Or Roger. Yes. Also Roger. Roger the Dodger, one of the best Vino characters. I did love Roger the Dodger. Yeah, underrated. Minnie the Minx was my favourite, obviously. Yeah, I could flip the divinity. Obviously, Nasher. Big fan. Well, yeah, Nasher is a hero. I think, yeah Roger the Dodger, that fan favourite. Anyway, sorry, Rod Simplisty. I just had a cycle backwards in my head there. Did you hear the cassette tape noise?

Yeah, yeah. The Simplisty who giving up her wedding ring again kind of echoes this, this all sets up that conversation that Dodger then has with Solomon, and she says, I don't think God was ever in my marriage. Which I thought was a good moment. I also love the, when she says, I trust my Dodger completely and Dodger thinks of it and the echoes of it bounced among his bones. I thought that was a wonderful line. Oh yeah. I was, sorry, my notes are just fucking everywhere aren't they, there was a bit about the world turning gold when she came out dressed all beautifully at the before they went to the theatre I want to say. Oh, simplicity who smiled when she saw Dodger

and turned the whole world into gold. And it's an interesting one actually that Pratchett describes Dodger's fun outfits and Solomon's in quite a lot of detail, but things like this just that simplicity look beautiful. Even though she'd been gone for a while getting ready and everything. It's very much like her, you know, she was dressed in evening wear, very rich, cool stuff, but Dodger dressing up in a suit is very much like a plot point. So yeah, I feel like he focused on the right places. I know how I feel about it. I think I enjoy is there are a few sort of lines about it

and references in the books to the fact that simplicity is not thin. And I think he handles it a lot better than he has writing other fat women in the past. I actually quite enjoyed the line. Simplicity with great presence of mind sat on the woman and dodged a thought, thank goodness for all that heavy German sausage. I think it's the fact that she's so presented as an object of desire along with any comments about her fatness. I find it's less mean-spirited than some way Pratchett can sometimes write larger people. Yeah. And it's nice to see her as an object of desire like this in the Victorian times when it's all very TB-centric with the...

Oh yeah, waifs fainting dramatically at every opportunity. Yeah, you could have easily gone that route, especially as she's a damsel under stress. That is a criticism I have. I got a new edition of Dodger because this isn't a Disco World book, so I'm not going for as much matching all the other things on my shelf. So obviously, this is an audio medium, so it's really great to show things. But I wanted to get at least one of these newer editions that Korgi have released recently. I do really like them. But all the illustrations of Simplistic, there are little illustrations like at the head of each chapter, she is drawn as

waif-like. And it's very stylized. So I do get why it's done that. But also, it's easy to do if you're not paying attention. Yeah, because you could miss all the lines that Simplistic is not thin as well. They are sort of our fan comments mostly. But yeah, so that annoyed me slightly. Yeah. Although I really like the illustration style. It's, what's her name? Laura Ellen Anderson. Okay, cool. If I remember, I'll try and, it's been a while since I hunted down the, there's

always a page full of the various book covers, isn't there? Yeah. But yeah, so well done, Simplicity slash Serendipity. Serendipity. And who is also now registered. And yes, there's a red letter next to Hannah. And Indigo, apparently, for Dodger's hair. I didn't know you could dye one's hair with Indigo. No, I didn't know that. I suppose it makes sense. Because he was sort of mousy. I think he was described as sort of mousy-haired before, wasn't he? Yeah, mousy-blond. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've been picturing him with black hair through the whole book, because again, I'm slightly thinking of Dodger and Oliver Twist.

Yeah. I think he's been kind of red-haired in my book. There's hints of red-haired to to it actually. Angela, I just wanted to mention briefly for this one wonderful line. She had once proposed marriage to the Duke of Wellington and Wellington known to be a good tactician had carefully and respectfully declined. And she did. Did she? I didn't, partly because I didn't have time to do much research. I just

left that in a too good to check pile in my brain. I think it was in practice also as a note. Either that or was just in what I was trying to read about the beekeeping thing. Also possible. But yeah, but yeah, she was, oh god, sorry. Keeps getting, I've got a plank here by the way. That's my desk on my bed. Fantastic. But yeah, no, Yeah, she's really cool. We've got to do some... Let's just do a bonus episode on that. Yeah. I think that'd make a nice little spin-off actually, just taking a couple of these characters and looking at them properly because we keep skimming the sapphires and going, no, we don't have time. And then Robert Peel again, I wanted to talk about just briefly because again, I quite

like the idea of comparing him to both veterinary and vines. And there's a moment where I think when he's called Stodger in to ask about what happened at the embassy and says, have you ever heard the phrase, you're so sharp, you might cut yourself? And that felt very veterinary. But what I found interesting is when you have this character who is a copper and also a politician, he is not ineffective, but like almost he's not as as good politically as like a veterinarian. He's not quite as powerful a copper as like vines. Yeah, yeah, especially because he's working within real world or round world politics. Which isn't as centrally controlled as that. He's not a benevolent tyrant. And yeah, no, you're right, though, because I think Vimes

starts getting frustrated when he can't act like a copper because of his political role. when he can't act like a copper because of his political role. And Vettnari obviously uses Vimes as the copper because he can't be his own terrier. Yes. I like the plainclothes policeman being bad at it though. I like to imagine there's at least one Fred and Nobby out there. Although there's a great line about, oh no, I'm not thinking of playing close policeman at all. I'm thinking of Monstrous Regiment, but he's supposed to go undercover and Jacrim has shined up his brass a little bit. But I feel like there's a bit of Fred and Nobby there as well. Although I will note, the London bridge will soon go missing.

Although I will note, the London bridge will soon go missing. And then the Outlander. I like this as a reveal thing. You have the set up for the Outlander for Mrs. Holland. No one knows what he looks like. No one's friends with him. The only thing anyone knows is that he likes the ladies. He'll always have a girl on his arm, never the same one twice. LWIPE Yes.

STACEY And I feel like it's not the most shocking plot twist Pratchett has ever done. I feel like it's very well telegraphed and it's written really well, but I think you can definitely see it coming. LWIPE I didn't. STACEY Oh, okay. In that case, I'm gonna feel really smug and clever. I guess. You don't have to. It's still a kids book. I'm fully aware of that. Thank you.

No, no, I just, I did not remember it. But yeah. But yes, as you say, it's not like a, but it's a, I like that. It was, I wrote a note, which did make sense at 2am when I was reading. It's like, it's like a dog wearing a costume. And you know, they when you get these dogs that are wearing a costume that's bigger than that, and it makes them like the legs or, you know, it's like now now the dog is wearing a costume. And it's like a little dog in an armchair type thing. They're just wearing a huge. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the little part of the costume. For some reason, that comparison made a lot of sense.

Oh, no, I kind of see what you mean. Like the trappings around the idea of the Outlander are so much bigger than the actual Outlander herself. It was a girl not much bigger than Simplicity and slightly thinner. to and slightly thinner. Yeah. Yeah, that Yeah, that kind of made sense to me then. But yeah, I I wish I wish we'd had more of her. Yeah, I feel like anything her backstory her. She wasn't it wasn't a scary villain. Yeah, if I think of it being introduced as a threat slightly earlier, because the first mention of the Outlander is the end of the first section for us, the end of chapter six in that smoky room interlude. And I think you need more of it. I think we needed more of it in the last few chapters for it to be especially because she's taken out so quickly. You get, ah, it wasn't what you expected. Still unconscious though. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, because there weren't even

that many actions by her, like she killed what's his job, the boring criminal. And that was kind of it. I feel like there was some editing out of some Outlander stuff for the tea. some editing out of some Outlander stuff for property sake. Yeah, yeah. Because it will go very dark with this kids book, but there are limit kids books, but there are still limits, I guess. You know what, I called it kids book just then. Is this a young adult book? I think this one was pitched as young. Yes, because it's corky. So it's young adult. But I think it's young adult rather than kids. I'd say it's young adult. I show where Midnight is probably the easiest comparison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that slash winter Smith kind of level. It's not like Wee Free Men.

No. No. Yeah, yeah, there is some talking around stuff that the minor then. Actually, that's not fair practice never been more. Anyway, fair Pratchett's never been one. But anyway, doesn't matter. Point is, I think it was not a particularly scary villain. But then saying that, I suppose that, oh my god, I'm gonna sound like a wanker, the real villain of this book, of course, is society. But that is true. I think Pratchett's villain in here is the grinding poverty of London. Yes. And how impossible it is to escape, how difficult it is to escape, not impossible, but difficult. Yeah. And the fact that there is another villain from on high and from a different country pursuing the protagonist's love interest is interesting. And that even the Outlander exists as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Even the Outlander exists as a tool. Yeah. Yeah. I would have, I think, I feel like it would have potentially not, you know, what's the phrase, armchair base, baseballing here. But if you could have a moment of something like Dodger hesitating or not hesitating because it's a woman and struggling on how to do violence in the same way. Yeah.

Yeah. Not saying like, oh, I really want to see this bloke hit a woman, but you know what I mean? Like having to, like having that be the reveal and then having Dodger to wrestle with it a minute. Because obviously it's neatly sold why we don't see Dodger like doing any violence against a woman because simplicity comes out and does violence instead. And obviously I really support simplicity doing violence. Yeah, she needed to get that out of her system, I think. Yeah, I think that helped. And I do think just, you know, advice for listeners, if you're going to knock

someone out, it is best to sit on them afterwards to keep them down. And that's why I eat so much German sausage. No. I found out when I did the new trailer for the podcast the other week, I tracked down that cliff of you eating sausage and bed with your boots on or something. You posted a picture of it, I think, but I tracked down the cliff of you talking about it and it didn't fit into the trailer in the end. But I had a fun little rabbit hole finding that hole. Sarah- No, I filmed myself doing it.

Sarah- Yeah, you did. Sarah- From the boots up to the sausage. Sarah- Yeah. So anyway, that was good. Sarah- From the boots up to the sausage. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that was good. From the boots up to the sausage. From the boots to the sausage. German's tale. Yes, newer listeners go back and find me sausage in bed wearing boots.

It was a fun time. Beautiful. So Charles Dickens. Yes. I like the way Dodger feels about Charles's notebook. What, just intimidated by it? Yeah, Charlie watched with his hands in his pockets, a curious and calculating smile, occasionally taking out his damned notebook and scribbling. That's when they're in the sewers together, before everything happens, obviously, when they're just toshing away. It's how people react to me at work when I have a notebook. They're so suspicious. I'm

like, it's because I can't remember everything, guys. I'm not the police. But it is fun with, again, there's the really obvious William DeWaard comparisons with Charlie where he discovers like this power of if you pull a notebook and a pen out, people will suddenly react very differently around you. They do. It's almost another flavor of the someone that's guilty around a policeman thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very similar. Yeah. He's not in there a lot, is he,

Charlie? No. In this section. He's trialling off by this point. But he's around to witness the events. There's a lot of event witnessing. Very important that he witnesses these events, yes. Yeah, oh, I liked the little fact I sent you via voice note late last night. Yep. That Charles Dickens edited Grimaldi's autobiography. That's Joseph Grimaldi, the father of modern clowning. One of Joanna's favorites. One of my favorite people.

I'm reading a lot of Magnus Archive adjacent stuff at the moment because Mm-hmm, one of Joanna's favourites. One of my favourite people. I'm reading a lot of Magnus Archive adjacent stuff at the moment, because obviously a lot of Magnus Archive stuff talks to Victoria in London and say, we've got Smirk, we've got Cromaldi. I'm like, ooh, creepy at Smirk because I was reading about Bedlam. Oh, marvellous. Yeah. Yeah, and then small, I say smaller characters. But yeah, Mrs Holland and Aberdeen Knocker known better off as Bang. Yeah, we're not very teeny weeny. Yes. I love this.

Quite scary. Quite scary. I like all this description of her stuff, a gang all by herself. I do like Pratchett's gift for only needing a sentence or two to completely build this very rich character. Bright blue eyes, which Dodger had often noticed, twinkled with sincerity whenever she told an outright lie. Yeah. Do you know that I think Pratchett, I think these characters that appear for a sentence and aren't that integral to the book are better filled out than the Outlander. I think that's it. Maybe that's the point. The Outlander is only ever meant to be this shadowy, straight in out. I do feel like there

was some edited out. It ended up quite a long book. Yeah, if you think of the Outlander as the hired assassin of the people in the Smoky Room, compare it to something like Pin and Tulip who are so integral to the characters and we get point of view. Again, not having the Outlander's point of view. Yeah, if we're sticking to one. But yeah. Anyway, sorry, Bang and What's It? Yeah, Bang and Knocker. Aberdeen Knocker Brackets, Bang. My favourite butchers. Love a bit of Bang and Whatset. I do like that Pranchett includes a black man and thinks

about what it would have been for a black man in Victorian London and talks about having the scars from chains and things. I said, like is the wrong word, but I'm glad he did it that way. Yeah. And I feel like there was another bit there of more stuff I really want the wrong word, but I'm glad he did it that way. Yeah. And I feel like there was another bit there of more stuff I really want to put in, but there's only so much room for everything, but at least it can be mentioned. Yeah. Yeah.

And then I had a very confusing moment. There was a great line about Mrs. Holland. He knew she always had a twinkle in her eye for Dodger, although it didn't do to rely on a twinkle. And that reminded me of, and I was trying to remember which Discworld book this came from, of a character saying, you can't quote a twinkle, but you can describe it. Then I realized that is not from Discworld, that is an interaction from Gilmore Girls. Oh, I was going to try and think

like, are you thinking about the star you're not meant to be wishing on? I think that's what it was reminding me of. But I feel like also my brain just assumes now if I remember a quote from something and don't remember what it is, like, straight away, it's probably Discworld. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, yeah, that is basically what we've immersed ourselves in for five years. But Gilmore Girls, you say, which fits that? It is, I can remember the context. I remembered the context. I could picture it. It is Rory

Gilmore having seen Senator Obama speaking and asked if he was going to run for president. And apparently he didn't say any yes, but had a twinkle in his eye. Right. Okay. And she wrote about that. Which was like, yeah. Which is just a very specific, really, really puts Gilmore Girls in such a specific place in time. Very cute. And then lastly, of course, again, not really small characters, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Yeah. Little cameo. Royal

audience. Little royal cameo. Tinky. If you're writing Victoria London and you can do it without too much wangling of the plot. Yeah. It was part of the victory laugh. Pratchett loved the victory laugh, especially in later, well, Discworld and later Pratchett books. A properly written victory laugh is a nice thing. And this may be our first royal one. And It's also quite nice, again, you think about comparing these books to Discworld. It's the equivalent of Vimes having that last conversation with veterinary where he asked for a new dartboard. But a bit more royal. Yes. There is a lot more deference, I think. A little bit more. Also, the descriptions, a splendid looking girl, he thought, very knobby,

of course, that went without saying. Her face was blank and Prince Albert was looking at Dodger like a man finding a codfish in his pajamas. That reminds me actually, another thing that Pratchett was saying about Dodger with Victorian slang and the language he had to use. And he had like, just things like using knobby instead of posh, he was like having to make sure he, posh wasn't a thing that they said then. And then he was like, and I kept finding Victorian slang I wanted to use, but I couldn't turn an old bloody thing into a dictionary of Victorian slang. So I just had to pick the ones I really liked. I think he uses the slang very well in this.

Obviously I referenced a couple of my favorites last week. There's nothing he uses where you would need to look it up. No, no. But it's nice too. Yeah. And it doesn't read like someone trying to do Victorian slang. No, I think that's it. And being silly with it. Yeah. Yeah, that must be a hard line to probably not to practice, but that will be a hard line for me to try. Yeah, I feel like it becomes like too far into parody really quickly. Yeah.

So little bits we liked. really quickly. Yeah. So little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. I liked the cemeteries. I could find a lot on Lavender Hill. I think it's just a nice cemetery. It's non-denominational. Yeah. I think Pratchett likes lavender in conjunction with Daz. We hear, I'll see you in lavender twice again in this, which we've talked about before. Yeah, which is, I'll see you in Lavender twice again in this, which we've talked about. Yeah, which is, yeah. But more interestingly, I say crossbones, crossbone graveyard, which is also mentioned as the resting place of Winchester geese. And I think Pratchett explains that in one of the footnotes,

the Winchester geese being sex workers in medieval times, and they were licensed to work in certain Brussels and they were buried in crossbones. But by the time crossbones closed in the 1850s, there were some 15,000 people buried there. And scandalously in the 90s, the eastern part of the cemetery was dug up to work on the Jubilee Line. And since then, there's been a lot of campaigning and a lot of work done to properly protect the graveyard. There's a certain amount of feeling and I agree that it was kind of overlooked because there were paupers and sex workers in these graves and like the powers that be didn't care about as much about them

as they might have done. And so there's been a lot of really cool people working on turning into this garden of remembrance and this shrine. There's a group called the Friends of Crossbones, which is, as the website describes it, an informal network of sex workers, poets, activists, oddballs, and outsiders of all kinds. They worked with Andy Holm, who's known as the Invisible Gardener, to create a wild garden with shrines in it. It's a really cool place. I think I will link to a couple of things about it, some really interesting articles on that. It's been given a lot more legal protection now and is better respected as an integral part

of London history. That's wonderful. I'm glad it's getting that care now. And if anybody can correct me about Lavender Hill as to why Pratchett might have picked that apart from the fact it's a nice cemetery in London, then please let me know. Also, I'm pretty sure this doesn't exist because I searched and I couldn't find anything and also it was meant to be in four farthings, but the Church of Saint Nevers? Yeah, I couldn't find anything about that either and I did have a look. But I like the idea about, I'm sure there is some kind of, I didn't have time to do tons of research, I'm sure there

is a patron saint of not quite things that don't happen, but there's something similar. But St. Neville is a more obvious one. Anyway, sorry. What's something you like? A repast. A repast, is it? Please tell me about those. This is when they're at the theatre and they have their little meal. It was what Solomon called a repast, which was apparently something much more exciting than a meal. There were glorious potted meats and cold cuts and pickles and chutneys to make your eyes water and Solomon's eyes gleam.

It's a supper. It's a supper. I was thinking about these names you have for this kind of meat, with picky tea. It's picky tea. It's girl dinner. It's not girl dinner because girl dinner turned into a really weird trend. It's what girl dinner should have become. It's what girl dinner should be. I was just thinking about all of these names for meals, like summing up just this really wonderful idea of sitting around and sharing things like this and how much I love that. It's a very fantasy novel thing. Obviously, we talked about food in

fantasy a lot. I can talk about food for hours. But it's also, it's the sort of meal you put together after you've done some hard work like, you know, toiling in the fields or watching Shakespeare. I do toil. You do toil in a field. It is a garden. It's a garden. It's a place. Yes. And then afterwards, I have a glorious repast. Wonderful. Yeah, along those lines, I'll tell you what, even now, This is a garden. This is a garden. It's close enough. Yes. And then afterwards I have a glorious repast. Wonderful. Yeah.

Along those lines, I'll tell you what, even now the words midnight feast make me feel like, ooh. Yes. Ooh. Yeah. Okay. Like if it's midnight and I'm snacky, I'm like, I'm going to have a little midnight feast.

Yeah. Then it's a midnight feast. Like a pack of poo loops. Like it's a midnight feast. And it makes me feel like a little girl at sleep over. I tell you what, one of the best things, toast is better eaten between midnight and dawn. Okay. I don't know what it is, but there's something about when it's late at night and you've, I'm not talking about like making toast when you get home drunk either. It's a very specific

like it's late at night, maybe you've ended up watching something or working late, you've ended up not sleeping and you've realised you need like an extra sort of second dinner, little supper situation before you go to bed and you eat toast at like after midnight, midnight feast toast. I'll try that. The closest I usually get is like a 10 o'clock, I had a small dinner but I should have eaten more cheese on toast situation, which I can never really be bothered with at midnight. But normal toast is a contender. Just buttered or do you put things on it? See, I feel like for between midnight and dawn, it's just buttered toast. Like

obviously in the in the normal hours of the day, I do like a Nutella on toast. But but for the late night snack, it's got to be buttered toast. It's like one of the best bits in the world is not so much having the dinner, but leaving the rest of dinner sort of a little bit on the side. Roast dinners and leaving the leftover roast potatoes and the gravy on the side. And whenever you wander past them, just grabbing a little potato and a little bit gravy and having a little snack. MS. So nice. It's nearly roast dinner season for me. It's still a little warm for me to be

making roast dinner, but I will. We've got a new kitchen, which I haven't got to grips with yet. It's got a very old oven in it, which is not really big enough for a proper roast, but we will see. It's from the year 2000, according to the manual. Excellent. So that's going to be replaced at some point. I was going to say, I'm assuming you're considering replacing that one. Yeah. Yeah. It's electric found. So it's not, if it was a gas, what I'd be like prioritizing it. But the other door springs shut with the force of a bear trap.

That's quite terrifying. It sounds a little bit like a bone taking off. I think I love about where I've moved into is that the kitchen had just been newly done. So it's not just a brand new oven, but it's the one, the sort that's halfway up a wall. Gorgeous. Which means it's so shiny and really easy to clean because I don't have to bend down. Which means I do actually clean it. Yeah, I think we'll, yeah, because it's not urgent.

I think I'm willing to save up for a bit and get a decent oven for him. I do think having a good oven is a thing worth having. Anyway. I love keeper advice when we get to the point. Yeah. Fan ovens are good. I like a fan oven.

I do like a separate grill. Mine doesn't have a separate grill, which is a bit, it has a grill, but it's part of the main oven. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, sorry. Anyway, yes. Dancing Stone was the other thing I liked, which is- Oh, yeah, tell me, tell me, tell me. When they're in the mendips and being taken back, took a minor detour on the way to show them the field wherein there was a stone, which it was said, possibly by people who drank all that cider, came alive on some nights and danced around the field.

We were talking about this the other day, and I think you pulled out a quote from Pratchett, I think from an interview, possibly that folklore interview with Jacqueline Simpson. I'm 90% sure it was that one. It may actually not have been on the podcast. It might have been at the live thing we did where Pratchett was shown stones that apparently danced and he never went to go and... It was from our live folklore talk and it was Pratchett and Jacqueline Simpson talking about these stones that potentially dance. And I think Pratchett saying- And if you went up at midnight on a certain night. Yeah. And Pratchett was saying he didn't want to go and see if it danced or not because

he wanted to always think that it could rather than go and see it not dancing. So I thought it was really wonderful that he has the dancing stone in here because obviously it is a very real thing because this area where they're in, the Somerset area, that's Pratchett's stomping ground. No one can stomp quite like a dancing stone. Well, yeah, I mean a dancing stone can stomp. That was a tricky sentence. What else did you like? I also liked, what else did I like? That's a very good question, bridge entertainments. So when I was reading this bit, I was first of all thinking, oh yeah, I'll do a really

fun bit like on the old like fairs and everything they used to have on the bridges and everything like that. And then I realized most of the stuff I was remembering was from more medieval times. And I know they did have like lots of street entertainers and stuff like that Victorian times. But the really, really cool stuff on London Bridge, I think was quite a while beforehand. However, I think it was still just a really nice description. The men who lifted heavy weights and the crown and anchor men, the man who sold hand sandwiches and the man who could stand on his hands upside down. Finally, as the golden light of evening made London look more like a pagan temple, all bronze and shiny, and turned the Thames into a

second Ganges, they went home totally ignoring the punch and Judy man. That was nearly my quote. Yeah, no, man who made ham sandwiches. Oh, my it's so good. But yeah. And so yeah, there were some really cool, like, bizarre kind of, what's the word? Types of entertainment genres of entertainment that you get in London. And there's one particular blog that just seems to dedicate itself to describing the ones that were arrested, which was fun. Yeah, which I will link. But one of them was, oh, where is it? William Johnson was earning his living as a street acrobat performing in Hammersmith Broadway, West London, in late March 1877 carrying weights in his mouth to exhibit his

strengths when a bricklayer pushed him over, struck him in the face and threw water from a horse drop over him. The bricklayer was sent to prison for one month for the hard labor. Like, why? This whole thing is just some random violence either from or towards these street performers. Yeah, amazing. So yeah, I'll link to that. That was my favourite thing I found in street performers. Sorry to the random people struck by this violence, but it was some time ago. But it's funny. That reminds me actually, when we were talking about mustaches, we do or don't like the other week, and we were saying we like the big walrusy mustaches, but not the twiddley curly. I will allow for one exception, which is that I think the twiddley curly ones are perfect specifically for Victorian weightlifters.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're allowed their twiddley curly mustaches. I've also actually softened on the topic since last week, so I'm in a better mood. Oh, yeah, that's fine. But no, I'll allow them on Victorian weightlifters. You can have one of those moustaches if you're wearing one of those sort of onesies with the little shorts. Oh, yeah. And, and or Victorian bathers. So if you're going to the sea and you're getting changed to one of those little cupboards and wheels. Yes, then you're allowed a twirly mustache. I'm not sure if it was only women who use those, but either way.

I'm sure men must have done I'm sure they weren't like wandering around on the beach tackle out. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Wasn't there a thing of the little cupboards on wheels where it was so women could go into the water without going into the water publicly as well. Oh god, maybe that was it. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. That was something at the Discworld convention we didn't partake in was- The Victorian bathing session.

Yeah, the Victorian bathing session, which I'd probably be up for getting a Victorian bathing suit. I would. It's just I can't let my hair go in water with chlorine in it. Oh yeah. But I mean just like for beach purpose. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, I have considered getting like a men's style Victorian bathing suit because I don't like swimming costumes. I get weird tan lines though. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. Somehow I've taken this further off track than we got with the toast. Well, we're talking about water. Why don't we talk about sewers, Francine?

Okay, let's talk about sewers just for a little bit. Just for a tiny bit, Joanna. So Basil gets a little late addition to the cast of this book. And as it turned out, was a really quite important man in London, wasn't he? Tell me about him for a second in my notes, probably. Gina Hickman I really like the moment when Dodger goes to meet up with the exertion. Of course, Baselgett's already there nursing a little pint. He's not really sure what he's doing with the beer, but as soon as Dodger turns up, right

there and then he's struck up a conversation with Dodger about the nature of the sewers with reference to the amounts of water Dodger had seen and then the prevalence of rats, the danger of being underground and other things of interest to a gentleman as enthusiastic as Baselgett. He was really enthusiastic. He really devoted himself to this work and there's a great moment later on where he's walking around with Disraeli and they began talking about the construction of the sewers with the former tapping the brickwork occasionally and the latter trying not to be drawn into expressing an opinion such as paying for something better. When Baselgett directly says, this should be done, Disraeli says, can't be paid for, and Baselgett says, well, if you can't

pay for it, you will have the stink. It was the big stink that led to. July and August 1859. 1858. Yeah. That'll be the same one. He's talking about now, do we think? I've lost track of which year we're in on Dodger already. I think it's slightly later. It was a bit further into Elizabeth's reign. Okay, cool, cool, cool. I know we mixed around some of the events here and there. The the big stink was to London sewer events, what that big smog we were talking about was to the clean air. It was, um, yeah, this one got so bad that MPs were running out of parliament with handkerchiefs pressed to their faces. I said basically, yeah.

And Babelget then takes the stage and starts making his great improvements at this point. What I particularly liked when I was looking into the London sewers though, was that we've got kind of, you know, a couple weeks ago we were talking about things like the Toshas and the mudlarks and everything. And there are like modern mudlarks around these days, but there are still people obviously working in the sewers, who I think are more the spiritual successors to Toshas. And I found this column from The Guardian in 2005. And by the way, I love The Guardian website has these little yellow boxes at the top that say this article is more than X years old. And usually it's like, oh, this article is more than two years old and it's to stop misinformation spreading, whatever. But I particularly enjoy it when it's, this article

is more than 19 years old. This article can legally purchase a drink. But yeah, so this is written by Blake Morrison, he's a journalist who in this case, I think, comes across very much the Disraeli of the situation, even though he's just a more of a Dickens. But he's clearly very reluctant to be doing this. The men in charge of this who was used to be called the flushers though, and that's who's showing him around. Despite the fancier titles that Mike and Esteem have been given by Thames Water, that's what they think of themselves. And then the flushers around still look healthy,

much like the Toshers did back in the Victorian times, this guy has been reading his mayhew. And yeah, so they go through, keeping the place clean, basically. And then this is when all those fatbergs were first hitting the headlines, I think, in 2005, I'm guessing. And they were talking out, it's fucking awful. Like, 2005, I'm guessing. And they were talking, it's fucking awful. Like, the real enemies, they say are the fast food outlets. Fast food means fat and fat, not shit is what flushers hate. Where a slug of fat is several cubic meters in volume, pressure decking isn't enough, they have to use pickaxes instead. Oh, I may God, right? Yeah. So yeah, at this point in 2005, there were only 39 slushes in charge of trunk sewers in London.

Jumping back to the basil gut stuff quickly, the sewer reform, what I don't know if like is a detail is the right word, but an interesting detail of it is because obviously with the big stink, there was a cholera epidemic. There were two major cholera epidemics in London within 10 years. The sewer reform did solve the cholera epidemic, but people understood it as, or the understanding that people had was that cholera was spread by bad air. Oh, the Mayan stuff. Yeah. By getting rid of the stink, that stopped the spread of cholera. And getting rid of the stink stopped the spread of cholera because it was spread by contaminated water

and by reforming the sewers, that stopped the water from being contaminated that people were drinking. So I quite like that it was, you solved the problem, but you didn't find out what the problem was immediately in the process. Yes. Yes. And I've always liked that as a detail. Oh, I also forgot to mention Disraeli actually successfully toshing, which I was going to shoehorn in a lot more relegately. Oh, I didn't, David. Tell me. No, no, not historically. I mean, within the book.

Oh, I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just realized, I forgot to mention this line anywhere else. So before I forget, Mr. Disraeli, although a gentleman is also a toshah. And I think that was a very good comeback from Dodger after Disraeli's reaction to Dodger turning up to the dinner party. Did you find Charles Dickens writing about the Great Stone? No, I didn't find that one. It was just a letter to a friend, but I can certify that the offensive smells even in

that short width have been of a most head and stomach distending nature. Actually, I thought it was very him. I love that. Yeah, June to August was the absolute worst time for it, wasn't it? Oh yeah, it was the summer and everything gets much worse and soupy. Yeah, there were people pouring lime into the Thames to try and make it smell better. Yeah. Also, just on Dickens quickly, I don't know if I've mentioned this anywhere else in the podcast, but we recommend You're Dead to Me quite a lot and they've got a really nice episode on

Dickens celebrating Christmas throughout the years. Oh, yeah. Lovely. So it's a bit early to start thinking about Christmas as it's fucking September. Oh, surely never. But if you want some more Dickens and there's some really good quotes from a lot of letters So it's a bit early to start thinking about Christmas as it's fucking September. Oh, surely never. If you want some more Dickens and there's some really good quotes from a lot of letters of his and things like receipts from shopping for the meals and stuff. I highly recommend that. I will link that in the show notes just if you want a bit more Dickens. And a bit more punch in general as well.

I think there was, yeah, I don't know about you, but I've come across a bunch of punch illustrations and everything through this. Yeah, no, I'll try for you. I'll definitely find quite a few cool Victorian stuff in the show notes, I think, this time. Yeah, we like cool Victorian things. Do you like cool Victorian things? We've been flagging off the Victorians for five years and it's time that they finally got an episode where we're like, hey, you had some cool stuff. There was a good documentary series called What the Victorians Did for Us because it was a

sequel to, it was What the Romans Did for Us was the first of the documentary series. They were like BBC ones. I remember them coming out when I was a kid because I can't remember who hosted What the Romans Did for Us, but it was someone I liked. Then there was What the Victorians Did for Us that was very interesting. I remember finding it very interesting, but again, it was a kid, maybe not so interesting now. Now I've learned too many things now. Right. So let's go on to some actual book talk. Let's talk about the payoff, shall we? Because we know that I like talking about Terry Bruchett paying stuff off.

Oh, we do. And I've got a coffee to drink. You're just going to let me monologue now. Something I liked as a detail in this is there isn't a who done it mystery like in say the Watchbooks or something. The mystery is how simplicity is going to get out of her predicament. It's Dodger's plan. I like the way Pratchett writes around it before the reveal. We get the set up, we get all this foreshadowing,

but he doesn't show us the plan until it happens despite the fact that we're in Dodger's point of view the whole time. We see all the steps, but we don't know what the hopeful outcome is apart from simplicity getting to choose her life. And so you get a moment like when he talks to Mrs. Holland and he asks her something and then she says, first of all, what you're going to need is, then Dodger learned a lot of things very quickly. And it's one of those things that works very well in writing. It would be like a fade to black on a screen version and it would feel probably a bit cheesy. But it works. It's very moist on lip thing again though, isn't it? Yeah, you see him thinking about how he's going to get out of a predicament, but we don't see him getting out of the predicament until it happens. It skips that bit of his internal monologue to make it more fun for us as readers. The first inklings of his whole

plans are set up in the very first bit. You have the story from Messy Bessy if they found another girl who's jumped off the bridge. Yeah, and that's just kind of disguised as part of the horrors of the... Yeah, it's done very subtly. You don't think of that setting up anything, but you see the old lady then going to the coroners and saying, the sweet girl had come up from somewhere in Kent and seeking to improve herself. A dreadful engine, if she did but know it, that took the hopeful, the innocent and ultimately the living and turned them into something else. And it doesn't stop being sad about the thing. Although the fact that that happens is convenient for the planet, it doesn't stop being sad that that happens. And I think you see Dodger having

that reaction when he's been putting the tears on as the old woman. He is still crying when he's Dodger having that reaction when he's been putting the tears on as the old woman, he is still crying when he's Dodger. Yeah, absolutely. And we have all of these sort of continuations and payoffs to all of the hero stuff. He's taken on enough of the hero persona that then he saves all the lives of the people in the embassy by not burning it down because he is a hero. Yes, yeah. What do you think about it? I've stopped an embassy full of people being burned alive, so I is a hero. Yes, yeah. What do you think about it?

I've stopped an empty full of people being burned alive, so I'm a hero. Yeah, I was the potential criminal here too. And then... Well, potential criminal, potential murderer, definite criminal, successful criminal. The Razor plays off really well sort of with the Outlander stuff. You know, he's built this, he knows that he's adopted the story around the razor, whereas it is just a razor. And maybe the Outlander had spun a little spell that made him bigger and more dangerous than he was. He understands that power of story because he's been forced to live in a version of the

story where he is the hero with Sweeney Todd's razor. Yeah. And then... And he drops the kind of fancy talk around it doesn't he when he gets to this bit and he has to actually use it. That little razor talks to me he's like I'm gonna have to fucking cut you now. Of course something really fucking sharp yeah. And then you have the fog expanding out and concealing the truth about simplicity. When she turns up as Roger, and since Angela was right there, Charlie and Israeli were seeing what they were supposed to see. It was a political fog. Yes, yes. And when he explains enough of what's happened to Charlie afterwards,

it's the fog in which people see what they want to see. Yeah, how do you feel about fog of truth,, Mist of Truth, Extended Metaphor? Do you like it? I like it as a metaphor. I think it works here because we see it from Dodger's point of view, which means, because he's our point of view into the world, he's our rise into the world, we experience it the way he does, where he learns of it, learns how it works and then uses it. Yeah. and then uses it. So you get to continue it as a metaphor where he, if the metaphors are like a runaway horse, he's managed to jump on the horse and ride it. You're metaphoring this metaphor. Yeah. I felt like I went a layer too deep there. In the trifle of the after... No, damn it.

In the repast of the... We're gonna have to add a repast to our food metaphor weather forecast. We'll have to think about that later. We'll have to think about it later. We need to get through this. No, it's going to involve chutney somewhere though. I mean, I think it works as a theme that runs through it because it's telling us as the readers to not take everything at face value either and look through the fog of it all. Yeah, no, it's good. I like it. I think I like it. And then we have some payoff of all the game stuff as well, including a nice moment where Charlie says, there's a game called Find the Lady, but I'm not asking to play it. I just want to know

that there is a lady to be found after Simplicity has died. And then you have this wonderful pay off of the happy families thing where Simplicity explains why she had it. It was something her mum gave it to her and she wanted to have something that was hers and she'd look at it and think that things would be better and now they are. But it's not about the game itself, it's not about how the game is played or what it means, it is just having this nice thing when you have very few other nice things and it was the card game that was important to her, not the ring. Yeah. It's fun that we then see them teaching kids this game when we know how much Solomon feels

that this is a game of deceit. I feel like that's part of the motivation, dodgy things, you know, kids could probably do with learning a little bit of deceit. Might come in handy. And he's learning to read. Yeah, I love her teaching him to read all the details of their little trip. Him sleeping outside her door as well reminded me a lot of the Fall, Verence. Oh yeah, oh, big callback. And you know, he sleeps outside his master's door and then when he becomes king, he sleeps at the foot of the door, he's sleeping at the

door to the kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, no, I like it. I like it as well because, you know, there are little hints throughout that, you know, dodges very into this in a sexual way as well as everything else. But when they're escaping, you'd like them, I'll sleep outside, you sleep in the bed. This is recovery escape time. This is not the real world. And wants to wait until they're married as well. There's the little bit of Victorian morality around it, even though he has not waited for marriage to do anything. Yeah, I feel it's different, doesn't it, for him? Yeah, it's like, right, this is a proper lady. This proper lady, I'm treated like a proper lady. And also we have all the time in the world now, so there is no need to rush. Yeah. It's the slowness of the Somerset and everything. The slowness of the Somerset? Of it all. The Zom-Rosette Of it all. The Somerset of it all.

The Somerset. All right, sorry, I was trying really hard to not do the horrible Mommaset accent. There were results of them damaged to us, so they are. And a lot of damage. But yeah, also on the happy families thing, you then have the happy family man as part of the bridge entertainments. Yes, yes, yes, that's an interesting one. And if they are brought up together with some kindness, they become a happy family. Yeah. And that makes you think a little bit of the Rikuris, doesn't it?

Yeah. And if you think of Dodger being brought up by Solomon with although he's not been raised by Solomon, he was around for a while before he landed in Solomon's attic. But Solomon has raised him with kindness above anything else. but Solomon has raised him with kindness above anything else. And then one last thing that pays off that is a Leo pointing me that is in the last section when Roger Roger Dodger. Sorry, has the conversation with peel. Dick Terping comes up and Dodger says, well, if I was him, I would have told everyone I was going to York, but I wouldn't have actually gone to York. So here, when he's being comforted by everyone, he says, well, I was thinking of going up to York, sir, for a week or two. Then this revelation caused a little excitement

in the room, but after a few minutes discussion, it was agreed that Dodger, who after all had committed no crime and indeed quite possibly the reverse, should of course be allowed to go to York if he wanted to. So he announces he's going to York and then goes to the opposite end of the country. Oh, I didn't spot that. And then the police start looking for him because they've obviously looked for him in York and not found him. Yeah. Ah.

So yeah, I love that as something that Pratchett sets up and pays off of Dodger doing exactly what he said he would do in that situation. Not that he even needed to get away from the police, he just wanted to not be inquired about. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, nice. So yeah, I like how much this book, considering it's not really a mystery, pays itself off and sets everything up as it goes. I think it's just something, perhaps it does well and I love it. I'll tell you what though, Chekov's Storm Surge was not what I remembered and I think

I must have been remembering SNARF in the back of my head. Yeah. Because this starts off with the Storm Surge and I said, oh, we've got two of these in a row pretty much. And it doesn't happen again. And in my head, I was imagining, almost being caught in it in the cold run or, but I think it was, yeah, a danger not used on purpose kind of thing. Yeah. It added this little edge of peril to the, to the sewage without needing to I was trying to think of some terrible red herring joke, but, um, life's too short, life's too short. Something about jelly deals.

Well, let's not say we did. Francine, have you got an obscure reference for me? Sure. I don't think that works, but we're on the record, Joe. video for me. Sure, I don't think that works over on the record Jo. Yes, there is a bonus, a bonus scene to this book, everyone loves a bonus scene. Yes. Where Dodger visits Mr. Sweeney in Bedlam and the device, well first of all it's a Mr. Device who greets them and we've seen devices there so I know him a few times and obviously the devices were the Pendle Witches. Yes, an Athema device in...

That's right. Of course. Hunter and device, very nice pairing. I think they'd be a nice buddy cop show. But they do mention that Mr. Morrison and Mr. Monroe are on the main wards at present, but they've instructed them to allow them to see them. Mr. Morrison and Mr. Monroe were indeed people who were in charge of Bedlam, or big in bed, big in Bedlam, as you say. So Alexander Morrison was a physician and an alienist, which was a name for psychiatrist at the time, which I thought was quite interesting. Yeah. He was Scottish. He came down, worked, worked in London. And he was a, he came down, worked in London, and he was a psychiatrist. Less esteemed, I would say, is Thomas Monroe, who was mainly put down as an art collector and patron, but he was also the

principal physician of the Bethlehem Royal Hospital, Bethlehem, and he resigned in scandal, because he was wanting inhumanity towards his patients. This is the early 1800s. And I think again, that the dates have been messed with a bit here because that was like the 1810s Monroe was around. But yeah, this was around the time that England was finally cottoning on to the fact that the way the criminally insane as they were called, or people who would be in asylums for other reasons were being treated with just awful physical cruelty. Yeah. So it was kind of, we're on the cusp of a turning point at this point.

And obviously it was still bad for a long time and it's still bad in a lot of places and in a lot of ways. But yeah, Monroe was a trap. Good to know. And maybe Morrison was as well, but he was more interesting with it. Excellent. All right. I think that is everything we're going to say about Dodger. We're going to be back properly next month with Raising Steam. However, before then, using Steam. However, before then, we want to properly celebrate managing to do 150 episodes of this podcast. 150 numbered episodes. We're probably at least approaching 200 if we count all the bonuses

and things, right? Yeah, but numbered episodes, we've reached 150. We want to have a bonus episode to celebrate. And for that bonus episode, dear listeners, we would like to hear from you. We would really like to do a mailbag. So please send us any questions you've got for us, any thoughts, rants, bimbling essays, whatever you like. Send it to us in all the usual places. I'm going to say by the 26th of September. We have a deadline. We're going to give you a deadline, which gives you over a week, almost two weeks.

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in costumes. I like the dog in costume thing. I think it worked. Either that or my brain has managed to tune into your 2am wavelength, which is dangerous for the rest of the podcast.