The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 155: The Shepherd's Crown Pt. 2 (What Fools These Bortals Be!)

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “The Shepherd’s Crown”. Pines! Flumes! Pack a Banana! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Reynard the Fox - Wikipedia Ozzy Man Reviews: Lumberjack Log Rolling - YouTube Lord Lankin - Steeleye Span - YoutubeOn the Ambiguity of Elves : Folklore: Vol 122, No 1  Dew Ponds to the Rescue - Country Life Building a Dew Pond (in Popular Science) - Google Books Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Got to spend the afternoon reading about elves in folklore, which is also a delight. A way I like to spend my time, although I did have to force myself not to look up what the leech book was. I want the leech book. I don't know what the leech book is, but I want it. I usually manage to wangle a day off somewhere for the sake of having a little mooch around the Christmas market, drinking a lot of mulled wine. I've gone off mulled wine, I realised, last Christmas. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I went to the Bath Christmas market, which wasn't the best I've ever been to. It was pretty much all Mold wine, fancy cheese, fancy beer, fancy shaving implements, candles.

That was the whole market all over Bath. It was wonderful. There's very much a coffee taste aspect to these markets now, isn't there? Once they reach critical mass. There's only so much they can do. And yes, I was wondering around drinking mulled wine, and I've just realized it's sweet, and I end up spilling it on my hand, and then it's sticky and also cold, and my glove is potentially now sticky and cold. Yeah, see, it's one thing when we were wasted. Yeah. I think that's the thing. I don't think I drink enough to get drunk anymore.

I think you have to have quite a lot of mulled wine for it to be fun to drink mulled wine while you're walking around I think. Yeah and I don't want to drink that much anymore. I'm no longer that person. No would you still like mulled wine like indoors on a Christmas evening? Maybe but then I tried that but then I had some while I was decorating last year and maybe it's just Waitress Changes for me or something but again didn't do it for me. I think this year I'm going to year I'm going to make a nice mulled cider. I still love a hot chocolate. I do love a hot chocolate. Oh, I might make fancy hot chocolate this weekend. Yeah, there you go. New Christmasy plan.

That's not really every winter. Weekly fancy hot chocolate has become a bit of a Sunday tradition on the basis that seasonal depression is horrible and I will deal with that with vast quantities of whipped cream. I don't know if there's any other medical way to do it. Yeah, no, I assume whipped cream is how I treat most things. Looking at my neglected packets of vitamin D. I have been very strictly taking my vitamin D every day, but I think I also need my weekly whipped cream.

Oh, yeah. Now that's going to start sounding dirty. What makes that? Do you make like a different fancy one each week? What are you going to do? I like to vary the flavors. The key thing is using dark chocolate and melting it in milk rather than using any kind of instant stuff and then finding whatever I've got in the cupboard to make interesting flavored ones. So a bit of cinnamon is always nice

in there. Nutella is great. Biscoff, maple biscoff, hot chocolate, very good combo. Is there a maple biscoff or do you just add maple to your biscoff? No, I add maple syrup and biscoff to my hot chocolate. The point is, it's not quite as thick as like Spanish hot chocolate, but it's not far off. And then it is on the cusp of soup. On the cusp of soup. And then freshly whipped cream. That's a nice poem name. That's unambiguously a poem title as well. Not a drag name or a band name.

Yeah, that's definitely a poem on the cusp of soup. I'm not, I'm going to forget it in the next two minutes. I was writing down weather metaphors earlier, I'm clearly feeling poetic. Write me some poetry. I'd write some but I'm scared about what it'll unlock in me. I haven't written poetry for a while. No you haven't have you? I thought you shared anyway. No I couldn't. That sounded really accusatory, I didn't know.

I'm writing secret poetry. You're writing secret poetry, you slag. Slutty, slutty poetry. No, I have not been writing slutty poetry or secret poetry. I'm trying to keep my fiction energies in one direction, well, three directions. I can't write just one thing, Francine. No, no, no, that's madness. I can't write just one thing, Francine. No, no, no. That's madness. So we've got the sapphic gingerbread Frankenstein story, we've got the young adult something

and the weird fairy tale true crime podcast. You got nowhere with that? Apart from writing random notes and imaginary banter, nowhere. I think the imaginary banter is the main thing, isn't it? It takes us, you wouldn't believe listeners, hours every week to write this banter nowhere. I think the imaginary banter is the main thing, isn't it? I mean, it takes us, you wouldn't believe listeners, hours every week to write this banter. Oh yeah, this is, I work really hard on these scripts. That was actually an artistic miracle, especially if you listen to the, like, the unedited version, which sounds very much like we just stumble over fucking every other sentence, but actually.

No, no, I work really hard on these scripts. No, I'm trying to not fall too deeply into doing the True Crime Fairy Tale podcast idea on the basis that if I write it, then I'm actually going to decide it's a good idea to try and record it and get other people to voice things. Okay, isn't that generally the point in writing these things? It is, yeah, but I feel like that one will just send me down the rabbit hole on a project I do not have time for that will not go anywhere. I know full well at what point I'm going to end up giving up on that project and it will

be before it is completed. Oh well, give me a call when you want a hand. Oh yeah, no, it will happen. I know full well it will happen. The script says that I should next ask you, do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Lie?

Not convincing. Hello and welcome to The True Shall Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry and Prancet's Discworld series, one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Prancing Carol. And this is part two of our discussion of The Shepherd's Crown. Oh, it is. The final Discworld novel.

Oh, it is. Yeah, again, nothing but that. Note on spoilers before we crack on. We were a spoiler-like podcast. Heavy spoilers for all of Discworld, possibly. Definitely spoilers for The Shepherds' Crown up through Chapter 13, but not beyond. If you haven't read The Shepherds' Crown, don't listen. If you haven't read the first six chapters of The Shepherds' Crown, definitely don't come and listen to this. Why are you here? Please, guys.

You've done this in a really weird way and at this point we can't help you. Consider yourself spoiler warned. You have to say something about the journey. Oh God, yeah. Thank you for coming on the journey with us. Doing loop the loops to your trial the set on fire. I had a good one, so you had to say it, sorry. Fine.

We're an unknown spoiler warning territory here. Thank you for reminding me that yes, we are on a journey. We have not completed the journey yet. We still have a few chapters to go. But right now today we are talking about chapters seven through 13, inclusive of the Shepherd's Crown. Quick follow up. We were talking about bacon numbers and trying to remember what the other potential connective number was last week. And Ellen reminded us that the other relationship count is the ERDOS number, which is Paul ERDOS, the Hungarian mathematician, it's how close you are to having co-authored a paper with Paul ERDOS. Out of curiosity, I did check and Professor Ian Stewart, previous guest of the podcast, an Erdos number of three.

Superb. Now hang on because there was even a third one and I'll now look it up. Erdos bacon Sabbath number. It's whether you share a music credit with Black Sabbath. Ah, excellent. I guess. And now we can add. I think Erdos bacon is the proper one. I think that sounds like a fun little extra mashup. But yes, thank you, Ellen, because that gave me enough to actually search for it. Perfect. Francine, do you want to tell us what happened previously on the Shepard's Crown?

Yeah. Previously on the Shepard's Crown. Something bad is coming. The Kelda can feel it and her inkling grows stronger as the disc loses one of its most powerful defenders. Tiffany, with the blessing of the bees, steps into Granny's metaphorical boots – not the real ones, they are safely under the bed – and stretches herself thin across two steadings. Meanwhile, a pleasant young fellow with a devilishly intelligent goat is en route to Lanka, chivered along by the wind and a wish to be a witch. Love him. Kept it simple. en route to Lancor, chivvied along by the wind and wished to be a witch. Love him. Kept it simple. Love it. Beautiful. Okay, in this section, again chapter seven through thirteen, in chapter seven, Mrs Ewig decides Tiffany isn't coping and pops by for a visit.

She offers patronising counsel but Tiffany turns her down and instead puts the feagles to work. The elves are carousing until the two-shirts train derails them and off the lathe throws his swarf. In chapter eight, Joe Aching discusses the baron at the baron's where the beer's seeming weak while Tiffany flies overhead. Roland pays a visit to Tiffany and asks her to do her duty, Dick. Back in Fairyland. Such a dick. Why, Rowland? You can appear in one book and not be a dick. That's impossible. Yeah. Rowland, don't be a dick challenge failed. Sorry, please carry on.

Back in Fairyland and the Queen is furious. The elves turn and her wings are ordered torn as rain turns to hail and thunder and lightning are invoked. In chapter 9, Geoffrey arrives at Tiffany's cottage and is invited in for tea. He wants to become a witch and at nanny's suggestion, takes on the role of the backhouse boy and goes out toenail clipping. Chapter 10, Peaseblossom makes declarations and Miss Tick teaches shambel making. There's lightning in the sky and magic in the air. Music plays in fairyland and elms are making forays. Meanwhile, Geoffrey is keeping an eye on the old men while Mephistopheles rounds up sheep. Tiffany takes Jeffrey to meet the

Kelder and Jeannie sees the peace in him. Tiffany decides to take Jeffrey to the city. In Chapter 11, Tiffany makes inquiries about a broomstick before visiting Proust, and then Preston. Jeffrey flies on a new old stick. In Chapter 12, the Queen is thrown from Fairyland and Tiffany wakes. She's fetched to the mound where the torn Queen waits and Kelda can't see her head. Tiffany suggests a potential redemption. In chapter 13, elves are causing trouble, and Martin and Frank arrive at a logging camp with hopes of riding the flumes. Mr Slack pats a predictive pine and sees horror. He sends the boys away, but not fast enough as

the elves come. They're causing chaos everywhere as they ride out and Hearn the hunted is hiding. Poor Hearn. Poor Hearn. He never has a nice time of it, does he? He really doesn't. On account of his purpose in life. Yeah, there is that. A helicopter and loin cloth watch. Helicopter. Hamish the aviator is aviating away. There he is. Return of an old helicopter. Return of an old helicopter. Well, I'm feeling nostalgic.

Honorable mention to the broomstick of Theseus. Yes, of course. And for loincloth, of course, we have old Mr. Price's unmentionables, now much more mentionable thanks to the protections of the Fiegls. We also got Tiffany's traveling pants. And she does, but I didn't want to... I was going to end up shoehorning in a sisterhood of the traveling pants reference if I did that and I didn't feel like we needed to go there.

Cool, cool, cool. Quotes. It was a sound which enveloped the whole of the chalk, a screaming whistle which screeched around the hill, setting everyone's teeth on edge. Down in the valley, the air now seemed to be full of fire as a huge iron monster tore along the silvery trail towards the town, clouds of steam marking its path." Lively. Can you say the word enveloped for me so I can edit that? Enveloped. Yeah, I heard myself say it weird as I said it. I heard it.

Now say it and don't sound angry. It was a sound which enveloped the whole of the chalk. Less angry. Okay. Thank you for deciding to edit that and not just leaving it in for people to correct my weird pronunciation later. I mean, if I was going to do social media properly, that would be the clip I would use for like engagement day. Yeah.

But I don't like engagement that's just correcting us. Yeah, I know that me neither. I'm all right without it. Anyway, so this is Kate Bush songs. I did use your rant. Fucking rant. Rant. It's too late now.

I put the episode out years ago. But I just gave you the clip, Francine. God, why can you not go back and do that? I mean, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I put the episode out years ago. I just gave you the clip front saying, God, why can you not go back in time? Anyway, yeah, no, cool description of a train, bro.

Yeah. What's your quote? Mystic smiled again. Why were people so keen to look at a sunrise, a rainbow, a flash of lightning or a dark cloud and feel responsible for it. Excellent line. Well, it's magical thinking, isn't it? Which is quite fun because they are actually magically thinking. Yes. And it somehow falls into the, if you trust in your dreams and wish upon a star, you'll get pipped to the post by someone doing the work.

Yes. I did like how the shamambles described or like the void where the shambles would be, the kind of boiling of the air. That was pretty cool. Because that hadn't been described by that before. That's a fun theme going through the books actually, because last week, obviously, I went back to Equal Rights and the description of Tiffany, not Tiffany the other one, learning magic and the kind of visual metaphors there. And it's been all sorts. Very much. And then of course you get Rincewind when he gets his sorcerous power.

Oh yeah, of course. Because the whole world's full of magic, isn't it? Yeah, that's the one. Sorry guys, spoilers from four years ago. Again, I don't think we're a spoiler-like podcast anymore. The only thing we can't spoil is the final few chapters of The Shepherd's Crown. Everything is fair game. Anyway, so now we can really talk about it. Small gods. The eagle. The eagle. Do you know what? I think one of our

listeners said that they were saving small gods. Oh my god. It might have just been one of the replies on our TikTok. Quite possibly. Instead of The Shepherd's Crown, they'd save small gods. Yeah, which... Anyway, yelling randomly about an eagle, I think it's fine. Yeah, I don't think that's a massive spoiler. Yeah, spoilers, there's an eagle and small gods. Right, we're talking about the book The Shepherds' Crown though. Tiffany, let's start with the characters. Let's start with our Armbane gal. I thought this interaction with her and Mrs. Eowig at the beginning is very interesting because Because Mrs. Eerwig says to her, a witch of high standing should never be seen doing the washing. And Tiffany obviously makes this

point of, I'm doing the hard work, I'm doing the work that's in front of me. And then thanks to herself. But granny was never seen doing the washing. And I think it's something quite interesting about having, she hasn't learned how to cultivate her own story yet. I was thinking back to this idea of granny having this reputation of her garden, that it's safer to stay away from it. And that's a good story to cultivate if you are bad at building fences. And Tiffany hasn't quite spun these stories around. She's aware of the idea. She knows about boffo, obviously. And she lived with mistreason and she can teach it to someone else. She's aware of the idea, she knows about boffo obviously, and she lived with mistreason, and she can teach it to someone else, she taught it to anagrammar, but she doesn't have it herself

yet. Not for everything, definitely. But you can see how it's now going to evolve, can't you, because the fecal's going to do it like magically. Yes. The clean laundry will appear while Tiffany's elsewhere doing something. But I think she's also learned to try and have some more control over it, because obviously we saw that not go well in I Shall Wear Midnight, and she had the Fiegls clean someone's house while they were there. Yeah, it proved to be quite upsetting. Yeah, it's interesting that through, you know, through all the bullshit of Missy Iwigs there, there was a good piece of advice just put across in such a shit way that, yeah, it was almost ignored. How do you think Granny got around it then without her Fiegls?

I think that we don't need to know. I think there's some curtains we don't need to peek behind. Wow, okay. Suddenly concerned about Granny's privacy? No, I think Granny was just too relevant to the plot to be doing laundry. That's true. Narrative, yeah. Narrativeum did that laundry. Narrativeum did that laundry. Narrativeum did do that laundry. Well, also, I think, not so much there's more people to help, but Granny did not do everything for Lanka. She was not fully in charge of this. She was not the only witch there. I mean, Tiffany still isn't the only witch there. Nanny is still there. The daughters

and Laura cooking. But I think it's just Tiffany's under a lot more scrutiny than granny is, as we see granny in the books, because granny has already got such a reputation that she doesn't have the scrutiny. Yeah, and granny might also have felt a little bit more authority over the village people to be able to say, you do his laundry. Yeah, Tiffany doesn't have that relationship, especially because she doesn't live there. No, yeah.

Not full time. The stuff with Preston is a small scene, but I really like those moments. I like the relationship is not neatly tied up at the end of I Shall Wear Midnight and they have zero issues to face. Yeah. Because that would be a boring story. And also just so unrealistic. What are you going to do with them? Just leave them at home. And I like the very obvious parallel between them and Granny and Ridcully. Yes. Because Ridcully really voiced it in that way and like, alas, our dreams came

true. Yeah. And these two alas for their relationship. Their dreams are coming true. They're doing really well in their careers of choice. Yeah. The scene with Mrs. Proust when Tiffany is crying, and she's genuinely admitting the stress about the relationship, I feel bad that I keep pointing out the bits where Tiffany's clearly having a breakdown because she's very tired and stressed.

Well, that is most of this section to be fair. That is a lot of this section. Tiffany is very tired. We can't picture around it. Again, let her sleep. Yeah, I'm glad the people are doing the laundry. And I'm glad she got her little escape to the city for a night. Laundry sounds horrible. It's horrible enough with our modern ways of doing it. There are mangles involved in this situation. No one needs that. No, people used to get so injured doing laundry.

Yeah. They just take up so much time. Apparently there's a Stephen King story about a mangle. Is that? That's haunted or something. Yeah, I heard that. Oh, interesting. Yeah. But yeah, Tiffany, it's when Tiffany gets to be at her most human when she gets to have

that moment with Proust and it's similar to like going to see her parents. Tiffany doesn't get a lot of opportunities to not be big and in control and powerful and get to have these, I am very human and this is all very difficult. And I kind of love that she gets to have that with Proust specifically. Yeah, it is nice. Usually it would maybe be with Nanny Og, but whenever she's in Lankan now, she just so flat out. Exactly. Can't lose that momentum. But yeah, she's stepped away for a minute.

But also knowing it doesn't hurt her reputation as you know, the senior witch to be able to go to these older witches and be human and look for comfort and support from them. Because these older witches understand. Exactly. I mean, it was right at the end of the last section, wasn't it? She said, she admitted to Mystic that she was struggling and the world didn't end. Mystic didn't point a finger at her and cackle or whatever. There's no shame in the fact that she needs this help and support. Exactly.

But yes, the nice moment when she does get to spend time with Preston, and the time for talking was over, and it was just Tiffany and Preston snatching the moment and saying more with their eyes than any words could convey. And it was magic, a different kind of magic. What kind of magic does it's like sentimental. Yeah. I thought it was a very sweet moment. It was a very sweet moment. It's also a very teenage girl moment where she sends herself out to spy before getting there.

Yeah, yeah. Have a look and also maybe having a little think about those ziggareenas. Yeah. You're very pretty and my boyfriend is not looking at you. Fantastic. There we go. But it's a great moment because it's a very teenage girl moment but it also helps with her like cool badass witch reputation. She didn't even need to ask where to go. She just knew. And also does highlight that she's still very spontaneous in a bad way. Teenagers are. You have learned your fucking lesson, surely.

Stop doing this Tiffany oh my god oh in an war fork as well it might not even be on purpose if you're too close to beers something might just wander into you who comes back possessed by a bogeyman throwing a blanket over herself neither of us want to be in this situation you guys my little sitcoms smell of sitcoms. Oh, Jeffrey. Jeffrey, Jeffrey. What a wonderful person. What a wonderful person. I really like presenting himself at Tiffany's door. I want to be a witch is a nice full circle thing. That is what granny did very many, many, many moons ago.

So many moons. Presented herself at a witch's door and said, I want to be a witch. Teach me please. Yeah. So Tiffany did to Mystic almost. Yeah. Not at a door because Mystic was slightly more alfresco. Transient. Yeah. Yes. I like alfresco. Let's go with alfresco. Alfresco witch. But yes, Jeffrey, you know, has this line, I never thought of myself as a man. I don't think I'm anything, I'm just me. And the non-binaryness of Jeffrey is something that Rihanna and Gabrielle went into a bit more in Tiffany Akin's Guide to being a witch as well. And obviously, I really like this character for some reason. Yeah, weird. Yeah, so I feel I can say fine young fellow. That's not terribly...

Yeah. I mean, the book still obviously refers to Jeffrey as a boy quite a lot on with he and pronouns. Yeah. He's very carrot-esque in his supernatural ability to calm. I didn't think about the carrot comparison actually, but yeah, that's very much it, this calm weaving. But where carrot sort of inspires people to be the slightly better version of themselves because he has this front of naivety that people are these better versions of themselves. I think with Jeffrey is slightly more innate. It's not an expectation. Yeah, it's a well, this happens to be a very good thing. It's quite interesting that this kind of new flavor of Frat Trek character has arrived right in the last books.

And I'm calling Preston and Jeffrey two of the same genus or something. You know what I mean? Just this young man who has got not a scrap of traditional masculinity about them and yet is command commander room in a way. Yeah, it's interesting how far away it is from the archetype, the stock character that Pratchett created for the first few books. He said these are all played by the same actor and it was Victor from Moving Pictures and it was the original Carrot in God's Guards.

Yeah, and Paterik. Yes. And now we're all the way here with these really rich and varied characters. And like I said, this sort of actually nah, let's not do gender. Do want to be a witch though. Yeah. Definitely want to be a witch, not a wizard. Not a wizard. Have you met wizards? Good grief. Oh grief. I think a calm weaver, by the way, walking into the university might tear a hole in the space time continuum. I just think he couldn't physically walk into the, you know, like, you know, we get those fantasy stories where like the doors never where you expect it to be and you keep walking and it's yeah, I

feel like it would be that. Like it? Yeah, like a force field. Yeah. walking and it's yeah, I feel like it would be that. Like it? Yeah, like forcefield. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't think Jeffrey could physically be introduced to the Dean. No, and the Dean, of course, is not Chancellor. If you would be so kind to remember. So sorry. Chancellor Dean from Brasenac University. Chancellor Dean. Thank you. Yes. Like King Prince Charles.

from Brasenac University. The Arch-Chancellor Dean, thank you. Yes, like King Prince Charles. Exactly. Look, his name is The Dean, even if he's not Chancellor now. I forgot his real name. I think it was Henry. It was Henry. You're right. Yes, well done. It's just not as good a name as Mustrum. Mustrum is such a good name. Wrong name. Icon. He should rip his shirt off on top of a train. Anyway, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey was far too young for that sort of thing. Jeffrey is far too young for that sort of thing. But yeah, this idea of he's good with goats, he's good with the old men. He notices this problem and he notices. He notices because he's quiet enough and calm enough to watch and notice things and Tiffany realizes it like when he's getting the new broomstick. When he's not anxious, he radiates calmness which means he sees more things and finds more things than other people do and it makes him open to new things. Which makes him really perfect as a witch candidate. But yeah, this idea of calm weaving, of creating this piece. And because he is calm, because he is quiet,

he is so observant and he sees this underlying issue of old men being in the way. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting as another, spoil's not the right word, but like a contrast to Tiffany. And we've had a few of those in the last few Tiffany books, where the supporting characters almost highlight her weaknesses, not in a mean way, just in a Tiffany, it's not the archetypal perfect Mary through character who's good at everything. Like she has to work really hard to be as good as she is. She's got some obviously some real natural deep power, but she has to constantly strive to be good at this, that, the other. And you get people like Letitia,

who are very good at, she was just very good at magic naturally, wasn't she? Yeah. And Jeffrey, who's just perfect people. And Tiffany is, he's not that. Yeah, no, she's not. But she's old enough now to understand that that's not like, definitely not a threat to her. He's an opportunity. Like, okay, fantastic. Can you go and calm people down for me then? Because I've got shit to do. It doesn't matter that I'm not the best at literally everything. Rhyme Weatherback certainly wasn't a calm weaver, put it that way.

And it's interesting because we've watched Tiffany literally growing up from being sort of eight or so years old and we've remen to being an adult in this very new, but a very young adult in this very new position of authority. So recognizing her flaws is this huge part of her maturing as a character. And she's sort of gone from thinking bitchy things a lot and correcting herself to thinking bitchy things occasionally and correcting herself. Yeah, and correcting herself, I think, with more understanding. Yeah. She has more empathy. But I think she has more empathy for herself as well. She

isn't constantly... She's being held to a very high standard by the other witches, but I think she has more empathy for herself as well. She's being held to a very high standard by the other witches, but I think she's being more realistic about the standard she can hold herself to. Which I think is an underrated part of growing up or maturing. Because growing up is not maybe the right word because I think certainly you and I didn't get there till our mid-20s and beyond. Yeah, no, I was not super, yeah, you know what, actually I am good enough in my early 20s because I can't afford therapy. No. Anyway, Tiffany's dad, I wanted to

mention quickly. Every Saturday night wherever he actually sat, he held the chair in the pub, was the fount of all knowledge. I love him as the unofficial ruler of the chalk. The Baron is in charge, but he is the one quietly saying to the Baron, maybe you need to look in this direction, maybe this would be where some of the money could be going. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to remember, he's Granny Aking's son. All the focus is on Tiffany because she's gone off to be a witch, but she's gone off to be a witch. So Joe Aking's son. All the focus is on Tiffany because she's gone off to be a witch. She's gone off to be a witch. So Joe Aking is still very much in the driving seat there. And I really love just the whole pub scene we get with Joe and chatting to people and the jokes about the weak beer and stuff. Obviously there's little bits of foreshadowing with stuff like the

beer and it's the elves fucking about and there's some stuff about Baron and Letitia. But it's mostly just a really nice slice of life scene. You get to see who Joe Aking is outside of just being Tiffany's dad and you get to see his role on the chalk and get to see this camaraderie in the pub and stuff. I really like it. It is really nice to see a pub scene. You don't get that many pub scenes do you on this world? Apart from very dramatic brawls. on this world apart from very dramatic brawls. We've had a few in Angmorpork. We haven't had many country pub scenes until very recently. Yeah and having it as a slice of life scene. We had pub scenes in Snuff but they were all very driving the plot or driving the character. Whereas this is more of a here is life and it's like in a book like this where

the elves are coming and causing chaos, it's nice to have a here is life as a here is what we fight for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially as the next little cut scenes are also upsetting, it's a good contrast to them as well. Very much so, yeah. And then Roland and Letitia, we've already called Roland a dick. So that's done. Letitia's doing well, though. Letitia's doing well. She's talking about her in the pub saying she doesn't put on airs. She goes around and congratulates families when they have a new baby. Yeah.

She seems to have... And talks to the women. Yes. Which is important that the women have someone to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if Tiffany has given her a couple of things to cover in these topics as well. Yeah. She's almost, it's sort of the Joe Aking role, but for women. Yeah.

Where Joe Aking's like keeping an eye on what everyone else is feeling and maybe passing that on to the Baron. Letitia is keeping in close eye on what the women are feeling and being that more accessible side of the women are feeling and being that more accessible side of the relationship between her and the Baron, being the approachable one. Yeah. Well, having insulted Rowland correctly, worth pointing out that he's determined to not be exactly the same as this father, as he's taking out the bits that might make his life easier, being a blustering bully, and

instead trying to substitute them with something he's extremely bad at, which is diplomacy. Yeah. Maybe he'll get there. Hopefully one day. He's still so young. We've been so nice to Tiffany for being so young. I know. He's just- I'll be pacing us out for books. The broomstick needs to come out. It does. I also like the fear that he's worried that the joke that Letitia will have had some sort of conversation with Tiffany and he's particularly worried about something being described as

small and I do, I feel sorry for him there. Yeah. Anyway, moving on to another dickhead, Mrs. Eerwig. Yeah. Yeah. Jingle, jingle. The bad manners thing, sitting down without being asked. And somebody's rocking chair. Yeah. Such a personal chair to choose. And then saying, my dear girl, and Tiffany correcting her and saying women multiple times, which I like. I feel very strongly that there are some kinds of manners. I don't really care about manners and etiquette and stuff as a matter of course. I think you can

tell. But you can tell when someone is having bad manners on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. And it is a particular way of being rude because it's very difficult to call someone else on without sounding like you've got a broomstick up your bum. Yeah. Well, yeah, if somebody comes in and does something poorly mannered, then they just don't know. Yeah. Exactly. I'm never going to judge someone.

Yeah. If somebody comes in and they are the kind of person who knows exactly what you should ask. How to behave. Like Mrs. Ewig. Yeah. It's like, but I've got to say even, even if it was somebody like who had better intentions, I feel like going to sit in somebody's rocking chair, someone recently deceased's rocking chair. Oh, yeah, that is like, come on, mate. that is like, come on mate. No, that is just a straight up dick move from Top to Bottom. Tiffany standing up to her is great though, saying, you'll impress me if you go around the houses and not before. Excellent line. Absolutely. It's nice to just see Tiffany standing up for herself. I was wondering, did Mrs. Ewig, Mrs. Ewig never found out that Anna Grandma had to go to Tiffany for help, did she necessarily? I know a lot of the witches know because Nanny Ogg told them. I think Mrs. Ewig knows and would never ever acknowledge that fact in a million years,

even if Anagrama went to her directly and said, stop being addicted to Tiffany, Tiffany really helped me when I was starting out in my cottage. She'd say, oh, that's so nice of you to lie like that, Anagrama. Exactly. It's simply a fact that won't, much like Jeffrey can't enter the university, certain bits of information just can't enter Mrs. Ewig's brain. And she's the Lord Rust. Yeah, slides off. Yeah.

Smooth brain. Smooth brain. Anyway, oh, we've got Nanny in here. I pretty much just wanted to mention Nanny for the line, Tiffany saw a suggestive grin on Nanny's wrinkled face as if an apple was leering at her. Because it's a beautiful line of description. But I do also like just Tiffany, Nanny showing up to the Tiffany having a boy sleeping in the stables. Obviously nothing would be going on but immediately suggestively winking because it's fun. Yeah, it is. Also that she is very quickly worn around. Yes.

Worn over. Yeah, Jeffrey is, yeah, Jeffrey charms her very quickly. And that she gives Mephistopheles the nickname the Mints of Darkness. Which I feel like is a joke that Terry Brantcher has been waiting to use for like the cartoon very many, many years ago. Mephistopheles, by the way, isn't noted here as a character, so can we just quickly acknowledge the badassness of him being in the centre of a circle of feral goats?

Yes. On top of the hill. That's very good and satanic, that is. Yeah, excellent. Well done. 10 out of 10 Mephistopheles. Oh, also being a sheep goat. Also being a sheep goat. I wonder if that's ever been a thing. They are. I believe that a goat could herd sheep. The thing is, with a sheep dog, like you can teach a sheep dog to herd sheep and it will do it, it will do a good

job. You could absolutely show a goat how to herd sheep. Would a goat be fucking willing to herd sheep or would it tell you to fuck off? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe some goats are up for damn things, no? No, I think they're all below jury. He's really good with goats. Yeah, he's good with sheep. I just think it's a fantasy to think a goat would do anything other than tell you to fuck off.

Yeah. All right. I think all goats are capable of herding sheep. I don't think goats are willing to herd sheep. All right. I don't know why I've decided to die on this hill. No, it's fine. It's fine. I mean, I asked and I'm pleased with you for being so confident. Yeah. Listeners, if you know any goats that have been persuaded to do things, not necessarily even herding sheep, just things, anything other than telling you

to fuck off, please write in answers on a Kashmir junk file. Is Kashmir made of goat? Kashmir is made of goat, isn't it? Yeah. But it's like a specific goat. Mrs. Proust, again, I just want to mention briefly because I like how accepting she is of Tiffany and Tiffany's role. And she wasn't there. She didn't even see the bees doing their thing. She just goes, yeah, no, I've met you. You are incredibly competent.

But yeah, I mean, she knew Granny not really well, but they met. They had very mutual respect. They were like, OK. And she's like, OK, your Granny's protégé. So yeah. Yeah. And she's like, okay, your granny's protégé. So yeah. I just, I like that there are, again, as I was talking about Tiffany getting to have

a human moment with Mrs. Proust, I like that this is not coming at Tiffany from all directions. This is coming at Tiffany from the directions we'd expect, but she is also getting a lot of respect. Yeah. That's good. It's nice. And then Becky Pardner and Nancy Artbright. Two very good names. Excellent names. So these are the two girls

that are making shambles with Miss Tick. She's testing them out for magical ability. Yeah. And that's your really, the quote that you picked, which is a really great line. There's them, the thunder and lightning roles and they both, one of them is like, yeah, I did that with my shamble. Yeah. But I was also wondering, because the names sound familiar and I didn't get the, because I don't have the ebook, I'd have to physically look in the book, I couldn't be bothered to get it unchecked. But I think these are the same two girls that at the beginning of the scouring fair and I shall wear midnight present Tiffany with

the posy. So I like the idea that they've grown up and started having witchy ideas. Um, yeah, wait, hold on. I just Googled that and it's obviously coming up with tucking uprights. Type of jam doughnut. You are correct. I am. Look at me go. Two little girls, Becky Pardner and Nancy upright, come up to Tiffany to hand her a bouquet of flowers, which include sweet mumbles, ladies' pillows, seven leaf clover, a sprig of old man's trousers, jack in the wall, love lies bleeding, and little white and red flowers called forget me lots, which we also loved.

Heather Miedkowski Yes, delightful. Jess Well then you two, you're good at flowers and yes, they had that old thing, didn't they? Asking her about having a boyfriend. Heather Miedkowski Did she have a bow? Jess Yeah. Jess And now they sort of maybe think that magic can help them get a boyfriend. Yes. Yeah. But they've both got this natural talent for it. They have got natural talent. They can make shambles.

Interesting that despite being proved otherwise with Tiffany, Miss Tick's still sticking with her. It's unlikely it'll be a witch, because she can't make shambles or anything. Yes. Well, Miss Tick is not going to let a little thing like being wrong let her think that she's actually wrong about something. No, no, of course not. No, you can't be an effective witch if you start thinking like that. Exactly. It's ridiculous. Yeah, you can't start feeling self doubt when you're tied up in the bottom of a pond breathing through a reed. No, no, best not to. I think that's the time we really want to be confident. You want to get the ips, yeah.

Oh, and lastly on characters, Maggie, Jeannie's daughter. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Which is, you know, like another nice spin on stories like Jeffrey's, is that she is a feagal and she's female, but she doesn't want to be a Keldr. She wants to be like all the other feagals. She wants to be drinking and fighting. She says the word husband like it was an abomination. What I find interesting is you see her sort of playing the, but dad, I want to be a warrior, but Rob's genuinely worried that Ginny hasn't taught her the Hiddlins and the Kelder lore and everything. And it's sort of a, it is not about what she's been taught, it's about what she wants to do.

Yes. I learned today, I think it must have been no such thing as fish or something, that apparently many, many types of ant like start ant nests and run it with two queens. I know we always do bees and bees. But I think sometimes we do need more ants on this podcast. Yeah, and also if one of them dies of an illness or something, their friend chews them up and buries the pieces so that nobody else gets ill. If one of us die of a horrible infectious disease when we're running a castle, I'd like to think we won't chop each other up, we'll pay someone else to do it.

Yeah, we'll pay someone else to do it. I'm not chopping you up personally. In a loving way. Yeah, no, exactly. I think it is the more loving thing to not do it really if you're not an ant. Yes, as we're not ants. I'm glad I've introduced you to that subject. Right. No, I'm glad we've discussed it. It's always good to make your wishes known. that subject. Right.

I'm glad we've discussed it. It's always good to make your wishes known. We haven't agreed on the pink jug and basin set yet. Mostly because neither of us has one. But no, but if all right, let's say now if one of us acquire pink jug and basin set, and dies before the other, it can go to the other obviously. Yeah, obviously. Cool. Okay, well, I know I'm getting you for Christmas. Anyway, location wise. Well, that's long term investment. Love that. I'm pretty sure you're going to outlive me. Let's be fair, Francine. Out of the two of us, you are physically healthier.

And more determined to achieve immortality. Also that. Although it doesn't always work out well for emperors. Oh, God. What if we both end up immortal? Like, I think at that point we'd have to agree on shared custody of the pink dragon basin set. We could probably just get another. Yeah. Spoils the bit though, doesn't it?

It does spoil the bit, no you're right. We'll have some weird centuries-long argument. Railway arches Joanna, you've written down railway arches, say something about it. Yeah, locations, I just want to mention the railway arches because again, we're seeing the railway have this long-term effect on the whole world. But in Angkor Pork, it means that because there is a railway now, there are railway arches and you get the sort of thing you get in railway arches. There's a magic in the cavernous space under railway arches, a mystery known only to those who work there. There are always puddles, even if it hasn't rained for weeks, and those puddles are glossy and slimy. The air above, filled with the taint of oil and working man's armpit.

LH – Lovely. JL – Which I think is excellent to make sure we know these have also become a part of Aincmore. LH – I would like to put forward the theory that this is the industrial revolution, evolution, of the magic shop that disappears. JL – Ah, perfect shop that disappears. These people can go in the back and find whatever it is which turns into whatever you wanted. Well and that because I think there's one big connecting dimension in the back of these arches and the back of those shops. Do you think the railway arches kind of go into the back room of those shops? Yes. Which is why they don't

necessarily need to move? Yes very very much so. Okay, cool. Good. They're all connected to the cosmic back room. The cosmic back room. The cosmic back room. If I say it one more time, it might make sense. Probably not though. Now I don't think so. Little bits we liked. Do you like things? I like lots of things. Reynard the Fox. Yeah. So, Joe Aking in the pub over here sort of chat between two old boys, one's explaining the difference between sort of cat prints and fox prints and the cat she walked like this you old bugger but Reynard he do walk like this.

Which really is something about he do walk. I know the accent here is very like old-cuntrified. Yeah. But a bit of me, it's a very similar cadence to Cajun and Creole accents. So I sort of heard it like that at first. Yeah, it was very similar to that to me. Where is the chalk down? So I've forgotten again.

Mendips. I'm about it. Somewhere around there. We already do a lot like this. Yeah, somewhere around there. You already walked like this. You sent me a link earlier to the Pratchett lecture Imaginary World's Real Stories, the Catherine Briggs Memorial Lecture, November 1999. There's a nice little paragraph in here. One of the aspects of the series that truly capitalizes on all that reading is the Kingdom of Lanka, which I suspect is a somewhat idealized version of the little fold in the Chiltern Hills

where I grew up, stirred in with the western area of the Mendips where I spent a great deal of my adult life in a cottage which had previously belonged to Violet Alford's brother. It was there that I once heard an old man in a cider house refer to a fox as Reynard quite unselfconsciously." Yeah. This is an old school term for fox. I think I know it more from fiction than I do from anyone referring to a Fox's Reignard in real life. Yeah, same. It seems like one of those things that I've always known that it must just be

from coming up in books. Yeah, I don't know anyone. I can't imagine anyone I know saying it. No, and there's a reference to it in the first section of this book as well. Old MacTavish refers to the Fox's Reynard as well. Oh, does it? Yeah. Again, yeah. It just doesn't even clock, does it? Unless, as in here, attention is drawn to it. Yeah. So looking at the origin of Reynard as the nickname for fox, and this is one of those,

there were two paths in a word. I could either give the sort of quick summary that I mostly got from Wikipedia or I could have gone down a massive rabbit hole about medieval literature and I did the former because there were only so many hours in the day and only so long will allow this podcast episode to be. Yeah, no, that's fair. I did set a limit for everyone's sanity. Yeah. So expect me to come back to this topic at some point. Please. But Reynald the Fox is a trickster character.

We like a trickster. Yeah. Fox is as tricksters in European folklore that dates back to at least the fourth century. Obviously Fox is as trickster characters in especially East Asian, Japanese folklore and things goes back quite possibly even further. Yeah. goes back quite possibly even further. Reynard the Fox is part of a cycle of anthropomorphic fables that date to around the 12th century. So Le Romande de Reynard, which is an old French story written around 1170 by P.S. and Cloud. That's theoretically the core story that inspired

this whole literary cycle. It's possible that there are some things that go back further, but I think that's the earliest and biggest recording we have of Reynard the Fox. These stories were very popular throughout the late Middle Ages and beyond that, but this is really the core of them is around the 12th century with these stories. It's sort of fables with a stock set of characters. Again, just from Wikipedia, but theables with a stock set of characters. And again, just from Wikipedia, but the cat within this stock set of characters is called Timur or something like that. And Wikipedia does have a C. Tibalt referring to the character in Romeo and Juliet, whose nickname is the Prince of Cats. So I don't know if Shakespeare was referencing these stories, but it is likely. So it's Tybalt and not like very smug kind of.

Yes. Like the clever. Yeah. And like I said, so the character in Romeo and Juliet is called the Prince of Cats is likely that that was a reference to these medieval stories. They would have been commonly known enough that. And they've been so widely used, these characters, haven't they? That you say it and you know what the cat is.

You know the character of the cat exactly yeah um and there's an antagonistic wolf uh whose name comes clearly from uh Norse influence so there's there's obviously all of those influences would be there in French and English literary tradition in the middle ages lots of uh lots of Norse influence on the Albs, do you? But these were... What's the Norse in this one? There is quite a bit of Norse, actually. But yeah, so these stories were so ubiquitous and so present

that Reynard actually became the most commonly used name for fox in Old French. Okay, cool. Before that, I think it was closer to the Latin, the Vulpus. They're kind of like what happened with Robin Redbreast here. Yeah, very much so. And so yeah, and now it's stuck around Reynard in English. It's an older term, it's fallen out of fashion. But at one point, yeah, it was the word for fox in French. It became very commonly used in English as well. So I thought that was really interesting. That is really interesting.

I've got the medieval bestiary thing behind me. Not now, not now. Okay. Okay, but after the recording, can you find me a weird picture of a fox, please? Yes, I absolutely will. Thank you. What did you like? I liked clashing familiars.

Yeah, staying on the animal theme. Mephistopheles and you meeting for the first time, I rather liked. Oh, yeah, I like that. She beckoned the boy in. She saw you stroll past the apple tree and suddenly stop her back arching and her tail fluffing out to a remarkable size as she spotted the goat. There was a pregnant pause as the two eyed each other up. And Tiffany could have sworn she saw a quick flash of fluorescent light greenish yellow purple magic color then all was suddenly calm as if there had been an

agreement signed and sealed the goat returned with snibbling incredible yeah i love um i love goat as a familiar which uh it's weird we haven't seen it before actually I suppose, I'm just well. And we've just had goats around haven't we, they've just been around. We haven't had that many familiars really. Yeah we don't really have like familiars in this sense when it comes to the witches. Not until Griebo. I don't think even Griebo's really a familiar, he's just a presence. Just an acquaintance.

No yeah he's a presence. Just an acquaintance. No, yeah, he's a cat. He's just the cat. Yeah. And yeah, you I think is a familiar. Yes, but who she's familiar with. Yes. Yeah, this was nice. I thought that the two huge personalities just deciding to not make this into a sorcery style war. Yeah, it's almost the we're each, no, critical mass isn't quite the right word. Neither of us can gain any more by gaining dominance over the other. So we may as well agree here and now not to. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there'd be a much better way to word that, but I'm not the writer here. Mutual issue or destruction. There we go. Not quite that either, but yes, we know what we mean. Quiet listeners.

I don't expect us to make it clear what we mean to the listenership of our podcast. Terrible script this week, Joanna. What else did you like? I also liked the log flumes, which aren't as fun as normal log flumes. But yes, so the problem with the lumberjack working this high up in the mountains was the distance from the remote camps to the main cart track, and explains how you'd therefore ride the logs down in a flume, which was what log flumes came from. I just thought it was quite a fun thing to suddenly have in Discworld. It's a fun thing on round worlds. You have people who've broken records over the years and have ridden a very long way, very fast on these things.

And it all sounds absolutely terrifying, to be honest. You also get lumberjack competitions in America or Canada, North America, let's just say North America, where the two lumberjacks like stand on a special log. And I think it's got like metal spinny bit on the outside on it and like run on the log in the river. Right. Try and be the last one on it. That's the thing. I saw that on Aussie Man Reviews, just unconnected to this. Excellent. Yeah. So yeah, to keep this as a little bit I like rather than obscure reference, I'll leave it there and link Aussie Man. And obviously, it'd be remiss if you didn't say yes, there are lumberjacks in there for jokes about wearing women's clothing and singing. Yeah, yeah. I think we mentioned that last week as well, didn't we? And then,

Patrick can't resist. Yeah. It was in, I think, when we were talking about Bradshaw's Guide. That's right. Yes, yes. Last month, yes. It's a truth universally acknowledged that one can't mention a lumberjack. Yes. But yeah, a floom herder. I don't know if that's ever been around well termed, but I rather love it for this one. Lots of fun little herds. Yes, I enjoy that one. Also, a good way to get away from a massacre, as it turns out.

Yes, it turns out right down a hill, right on a mountain on a log flume. Noted. Particularly handy if a massacre is taking place at a theme park. Generally, I would say this is only a good solution if the alternative is death by elf because this does have a really high potential of horrible death. There is also that. But it's a nicer death than death by elf. That's very true.

If you're getting attacked by say wolves, maybe try and fight the wolves rather than jumping on a log for a Mickey if you don't have any experience. The problem with getting attacked by wolves is that I'd probably try and befriend the wolves. I know they're dangerous wild animals that I can't befriend them, but I think I'm different. Yeah, obviously. It's the better thing. It's the better thing.

It's the better thing. Yeah. And it's why it's really for the best that we're not allowed in North American woods. I have personally been banned from forested areas in North America. There's very little harmful wildlife in this part of the world. What you're going to get is a badger, a wild boar, a wild boar might be a problem. Yeah, I don't think we've got many looking at wild boars for Christmas purposes. For Christmas card purposes, not for cooking because I don't eat pig.

Anyway, Shakespeare references. I thought I said I'd keep this as an ongoing bit. We have the line, quote, and who says it, what fools these mortals be, peas blossom roared, which is a great obviously... Orthof. Portal. Thank you. Sorry. Oh, it's too late in the podcast for us to worry about mispronouncing things. I'm

very sorry. I was going to say. Thank you. Which is great in itself, you know, what fools these mortals be is a great line from Midsummer Night's Dream, but in Midsummer Night's Dream is oh lord what fools these mortals be and here we have what fools these mortals, I'm doing it, I can't stop doing it now. In Midsummer Night's Dream we have oh lord what fools these mortals be and here we have what fools these mortals be peas blossom roared. So it kind of subverts the line, it moves that. It's not quite the same. Stillambic pentameter. Stillambic pentameter.

Yeah, it is. What fools these vortals be, these blossoms roared. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it moves that lord to roared at the back of the line and it subverts the shape of the line in the process and it goes from funny to menacing in the process. I thought it was a very clever writing moment. Very nice. And we also have, obviously, with the elf in Kershens, we have Elsie who abandons her little

sister because she's gazing lovingly into the eyes of her father's donkey, which is obviously referenced in Midsummer Night's Dream again, Titania falling in love with the donkey. Me thought I was enamored of an ass. Bottom? Bottom, yes. And then not a Shakespeare reference, but I did look up because, so we have Peas, Blossom, Cobbs, Webber, Mustard Seed, which is referenced to Tanya's attendance in Midsummer Night's Dream, no moth. And then we also have the other elf is Lord Lankin. And for some

reason in my head, I just skipped over that mention. I was like, oh yeah, Lankin, because he wrote something about fairies. It's not what it's referencing at all. And I'm not sure who I was, maybe I was thinking of Philip Larkin for some reason. I don't know. Lord Lankin is an English folk ballad, also called Lankin or Long Lankin. So I'll link in the show notes, there's a really good version of it. Lankin, LinkedIn. Yeah. There's a really good version of it, unsurprisingly, by Steele Ice Band. And that is the version I'll link in the show notes.

It's very good. It's a very dark story. It's a very dark song. Oh, not from Steele Ice Band, surely? Well, I know. Such a lighthearted and shallow look at folklore usually from Steele Ice Band. Thomas the Rhymer, cry, cry, cry. Don't remind me of Thomas the Rhymer, cry, cry, cry. Don't remind me of Thomas the Rhymer. It's not time to start crying in the podcast.

But just a quick from the song, beware of long lankin that lives amongst the gorse, beware the moss, beware the maw, beware of long lankin. Be sure the doors are bolted well, this lankin should creep in. And he wears the moss in here. Yes, exactly. So very cool detail, very nice reference. And yeah, like I said, I'll link to the song down below. Have a listen. It's a good song. I will. Nice. Thank you. Good find. I was wondering if something was a quote. It sounded almost Shakespearean, but it might just be because Pratchett's good at writing words. You know what he's like. writing words. You know what he's like. Quite good writer that Pratchett. Hang on, in the bloody folklore book again. Sorry.

Borsal. What are they like? Oh, here we are. It's when the miller is ground up an elf. Well, the mills of Stank grind slow, yet they grind them exceeding small. That sounds like something, doesn't it? well the mills of Stank grind slow yet they grind them exceeding small. I don't like something doesn't it? It does sound like something but I didn't recognise it like as a Shakespeare quote. That's not to say it's not one that's just not one I recognised. Okay, cool cool cool.

It was the bigger stuff then I mean let's talk about the elves. Yeah. They do. God they were they were really being little bastards today weren't they? They were. Normally if I was gonna have a big conversation about the villain of the piece I would obviously do it in the third section of the book but I want to talk about it here because here is where we got the horror intention and also... Yeah, we've got other things to talk about next week.

Yeah, I'm assuming I'm going to be quite distracting next week. We're not thinking about that. So yeah, Elves is a recurring villain in the Discworld books. I think they're up there with the auditors for the most terrifying Pratchett villain. I think the auditors just take it but... I see. I think I'd argue on the side of the elves for being scarier than auditors, but I can't remember where I sat on auditors being the scariest anyway. Yeah, that's a good point. As usual, I'm going to start arguing with myself, my past self. To be honest, I may not actually believe it.

I may just be trying to avoid accusations of recency bias. Who knows what I truly believe, Fancy, and I fucking don't. The thing is, Pratchett doesn't have many recurring villains. He tends to go for recurring thematic villainy. But the elves are present through multiple books. We have them in Lords and Ladies and then obviously the Queen and Fairyland as the villain in We Free Men and then we're here. But thematically the idea of a villain like the elves is something that's there in a lot of the witches books. There's something about this just casual disregard for humanity or for life. And it's part of the reason I put them up there with the auditors is because it's a similar flavour of villainy, but it's got very different vibes to it. I think the best way I could sum

it up is the auditors are passive where the elves are active. Like the elves don't care and think they're better. The auditors don't care and think they're better, but they think the solution is to get rid of all that, whereas the elves just want to. They do seem to care of the auditors actually. Yeah, they care that it's not like them, whereas the elves want things to be not like them, so they've got something to go and fuck around with. But they have that similar disregard. Yeah, I think the auditors and the elves would not get along. No, absolutely not. Would not join forces, which I think we could all be grateful for.

Thank goodness. Yeah. Good. Imagine an audience addressed in most disgusting. Yeah, so but if you look at so Carpe Jugulam, you have the vampires treating people as things, it's very literal version of this theme, which is a broad Lilith, her casual disregard for the actual real lives of the people she's turning into characters, especially if you think about something like the wolf scene, which is so jarringly dark in that otherwise quite entertaining book. Yeah, God. The winter smith, again, winter smith just doesn't care, life is not important, it's

the ice and so you get that really visceral representation of it with the snow burying the lambs and Tiffany's father almost throwing himself on the fire. You can go all the way back to Weird Sisters that the king and horrible duchessy queen, just their disregard for the kingdom and the kingdom hurting as a result and needing to be saved. Possibly stretching a bit there to make a point. But I think the Duchess definitely less so the King. Yeah, the King is a mad little puppet. Yeah. I would argue, do you know, that some of the non witchy villains that are more Elvish, I would say Casser and T-Time are closer to the elves to me. Yeah, no, definitely. I agree. Just through the straight parallel of burning everything down just to see what

happens kind of thing. Yeah, no, I agree with you there. Similar lack of motive, perhaps is what I'm saying. Yeah, just straight up chaos for the sake of chaos almost. Especially Karsa, T-type, slightly different because I think there's also a... He's got some ambition there, hasn't he? He's got curiosity. The elves are distinctly uncurious. Yeah, so curious in the way a cat is. This is interesting for a minute.

Yeah, exactly. I'm bored now. Push the opposite side. I love cats, by the way, guys, but they are little bastards. Famously, cats and curiosity, not the best of friends. No. And famously, cats and curiosity, not the best of friends. No. But yeah, bringing the elves back as a villain here, it brings Tiffany's journey full circle in a really cool way because you go from her fighting the Queen of Fairyland in We Free Men to dealing with elves like a full incursion here.

Yeah. And you get, ooh, it's like a three, it's a rule of three. We've got three elf books. We've got Tiffany, no, sorry, we've got Granny. Lots of ladies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we've got Tiffany and now we've got Tiffany growing up into the new granny. This is very narrative. Oh, I like this. Yeah. This is again, this is the maidens starting the journey towards the Crone. Very nice. Yeah. The elves in the background, terrible background.

Terrible, terrible. Speaking of terrible backgrounds, love how it's always described how poorly they render their backgrounds when they're in a mood. Yes. Couldn't be bothered doing the magical forest. Paint bits of grass colouring themselves in as the flick queen walks past you. Like me insisting on playing Skyrim when my PlayStation was not up to it. Me trying to run Dragon Age Origins on my PC when it's old and the PC isn't old as

glitchy as well because the game is. Yeah, you can hear the fan on the metaphorical laptop of Fairyland. But Pranchi writes the horror of them really well, these incursions hammering home this utter callousness. The way the barrier breaking is like the idea of the barrier is such a big deal, like in Lords and Ladies it's the stones and what happens if anything makes the stones fall or allows them to start getting through. In We Free Men, it's Tiffany and the land holding that barrier strong. And then here it falls like it's nothing. The gate between the worlds gave them very little trouble. They pushed through. The barrier is weak.

No granny. Yeah, because no granny and because Tiffany is fully capable of stepping into her shoes, but she's busy and sleep deprived. And this I think is a very important lesson about properly staffing your crews. Very much so. Look, if you keep running on a skeleton crew in McDonald's, I'm just saying, might be the end of the world somehow. Elves. Elves. Fucking elves all off in your burgers.

And then yeah, the logging camp attack going into a montage. So you have in the camp attack, I thought a really great line that there was something enchanting about them, something that crept behind the hard exteriors of the lumberjacks and made them fall to their knees, sobbing for their mothers, dropping their axes. Easy prey. And then just a couple of pages later you have, old mother Griggs woke up with her hair in a terrible tangle and a bed full of thistles tearing into her aged skin, while an elf laughed in glee as its mount, a young heifer collapsed to her knees, exhausted from the nighttime revels. That just little paragraph was an incredible moment, like horror. Really good writing.

A little, not callback exactly, but we talked fairly recently about what Hagrid and then actually might have talked about in a patron thing. Hagrid and being when a horse or a cow would just be absolutely exhausted for no discernible reason and the answer would be it must have been a witch riding around all night. In this case, it was an elf. And I was reading about elves in folklore in general, because this was an excuse to do so. And there does seem to be a lot of overlap between what people believed of elves and what people believed of witches. And, you know, a little bit of question as to what they meant when they were talking about it at certain points. But yeah, it's very interesting contrast between the individual and the kind of brute massacre thing as well, isn't it? There was like this, you know, one poor old woman being terrorized by an elf and

then this entire Lumberjack camp being massacred. Yeah. And then you have the victory moment within there as well with the mill breaking things down. Yeah. And you you have the victory moment within there as well with the mill breaking things down. Yeah. And you've got to because it's Pratchett, you've got to have at least one reminder that people are fighting back. Yeah. And that was why the, I had that as my quote earlier, the train coming onto the land. It goes back to that GK Chesterton thing of fairy tales don't teach us the dragon exists, they teach us the dragons can be beaten. The fact that there is something that challenges

the elves, there is the train, there is the mill, there is the things that can grind them up and grind them small. Pratchett does not. Elves' wharf. Elves' wharf. Oh, no. Mossy. Yeah, so Pratchett is not just telling us the horror of elves, but he's already shown us that elves can be beaten and they're sort of not even really comforting. It's still really good. It's really horrific, but it is reminding us that they've been beaten before. Yeah, a really interesting way to tie it into the practice kind of recurring theme of

interestingly magical trees. You got this, what's he called his pine? His future pine. Predictive pines. Predictive pine, thank you. Which is a really fun little idea, just a nice little practically and species of tree immediately tied into a horrible foreseeing of somebody losing their literal head. Jesus Christ, man. That was an emotional log flume. It was a good detail. And then you have the moment of the elves challenging each other and that another side of their just massively callous disregard for life, you have Pease Blossom smiling a smile the Queen didn't like, because it cut through the dramatic style of the face he had

chosen to wear. Yeah. There's something about a wrong smile that's a very good horror moment as well. Yes, that's a smile and that's a face and the twin should never meet. You've got this very stereotypical horrible little sociopath pulls the wings off flies. Yes, of course. The fact that they all start agreeing with each other when they start going against the Queen, this idea of disagreement was a normal state of being for Elms, but the mass of warriors were pitiless and dangerous and nasty. They do unite under this umbrella for a bit. And you get, after the Queen's been kicked out, Peasblossom kind of delivers this calls to arms speech. The hootings of mechanical rubbish will be swept away, I thought was a fantastic line. That it's, we're taking back the world, this is ours.

And then added softly, those who are not with us will suffer. And that's a really good ominous, like gripping hero, gripping villain moment. Yeah. Yeah, it's very good returning to almost the tropes of psychotic duke. Yes. Psychotic duke is, I think remains one of the most entertaining Pratchett villains. Yeah, and really strong band name. Also that too. What else did you find doing your research stuff? Oh, just little bits and pieces really that tie in well with how Patrick writes about elves, which is unsurprising because he read a lot about elves. One thing that has been written about quite a lot is that depending on the landscape kind of depends how scary

your elves, your fairies are, which I quite liked. And we talked about before, like how landscape affects folklore, but how it's put here. And I think this is in, yes, this is in an article by Jacqueline Simpson, actually, called On the Ambiquity of Elves, which does talk about Pratchett. It says fairies living beyond the outskirts of cultivated areas, for instance, in woods or marshes, were definitely dangerous and those in remote forests and mountains even more so. Just how grave the danger is corresponds to the nature of the landscape. To be pixie-led in a devin wood is one thing. To be tripped by a leshy so that one loses the path in the depths of a Russian forest is quite another." And that's very true. And we said before, doing

that Pratchett revisits a couple of times this idea of being hurt in a forest as a lumberjack. And how scary that is because of how isolated you are and how brutal the injury is. And I think it's a very, it's very good moment every time it comes up, of just like, oh yeah, oh. Also in that article, this is more of a more ties into the type of villain an elf is. Yeah. It does remain puzzling that elves and fairies could be conceived of as being so morally ambivalent in their dealings with humanity. And we have talked about before how, what practice talked about before, how, what practice talked about for

we talked about for the round world equivalent of how elves changed from being a malevolent force to being a cutesy little fairy thing. Yeah, or a Tolkien esque. Statuesque community. Yeah. But and she said it's doubly puzzling that this concept survived vigorously through long centuries of Christian culture, since Christianity divides the supernatural world into sharply opposed forces of good and evil, angels and saints on the one hand, demons on the other, no grey areas. And this perhaps is the answer. Clear-cut moral divisions do not reflect the way we experience life, where Where good luck and misfortune bear

no relation to virtue and vice. Fantastic. Yeah. And again, we talked before about how Pratchett knows what's frightening and what's frightening is that it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter if you're a sweet old lady. We don't know whether this sweet old lady was a sweet old lady or was an absolute asshole. Doesn't matter. The fact is she was there when an elf wanted to have a bit of fun. Yeah, Pratchett writes, it's him. Yeah, it's why he uses bureaucracy as a villain so much. Because it is cold and it is uncaring. You can be as good or a bad a person as you want, it will not matter to the person with the fucking

spreadsheet. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You treat people as things on both ends of this malevolent spectrum. Yes. Whether you are, let's call them type A and type B personality, a horrible villain. But yeah, both ends are the scariest, aren't they? In the spectrum of flat-tracked villains. You've got the elves on one hand and the auditors on the other. Actually, we should draw out this spectrum. Here's a project. What did I say I was going to do last week? Doesn't matter. This is what we're doing now.

We've got the audit, we've got the auditory spectrum and I want us to place every practical in on this. Please contribute in the discord listeners. Yes. Love this one. Yeah. Answers either in the discord or. On a spreadsheet. What's something really villainous? Yeah, in a spreadsheet or written on something horrible.

Written on a frog. Written on a wall. Poor frog. No, don't write on frogs, dear listeners. On a bit of moss. Are you going to talk about Nightshade a little? I am going to talk about Nightshade a little? I am going to talk about Nightshade a little. I'll see you in there then because Elf Throne is a cure for elf disease. So obviously in a lot of elf folklore, centers on the various terrible things that elves do to you.

We talked before about elf shot and how that's meant to make you ill or make your you. We talked before about elf shot and how that's meant to make you ill or make your livestock ill. Just in general, elf disease, kind of a nebulous term, but elf stone is a cure for elf disease. And it's more commonly known these days as Enchanter's Nightshade. What? Gasp! Amazing. Comes around full circle. Yeah, it must, just in case we need to use it by the way, it must be first laid under the altar and have nine masses sung over it.

Then three bits of it must be given to the patient to eat. And finally, it must be laid on hot embers which are placed near him to make him sweat. Incredible. Okay, it's no good just giving him the, we've got to write down the instructions here. It's like baking. It's got to be scientific.

We can't just do one pot cooking when it comes to curing elf disease. Okay, well you make a note of it and I'll get elf disease. I can't remember that off the top of my head. Right, you go off and get your elf disease. So tell us about Nightshade in the context. Well, to get to Nightshade and talk about Nightshade being kicked out of Fairyland, I get to bring this around to something I didn't think I was going to manage to shoehorn in until the third part of the book, but I've done it here. We're going to talk about the power of belief, Francie. Yeah, well done, Joanna.

Yeah, we're getting talking about the power of belief because the Queen's glamour fades. Thousands of true Chameleon Bingo players are cheering as they listen. I love the confidence there're drawing, they're lovely. Thousands of them. I don't like to look at the statistics, so we're listening. Get the emails, Francie, and I've seen them. I'm just choosing to, I'm going to use the power of belief. I'm going to believe we have thousands of listeners playing the true show, make you

fret bingo. The Queen's glamour fades because the rest of the elves stop believing in her, backing Peas Blossom instead. It's all power of belief. His glamour grows as he gains the backing of the rest of this and then you get this horrifying moment of in the blankness of their eyes, the Queen saw her future drop away, which is great. But when she is thrown from Fairyland, she invokes the most powerful thing she can think of. She invokes the force of thunder and lightning and the wrath of Tiffany Aking, it stings to the bone. It's not just the most powerful force that she can think of, it's the most powerful force she has ever suffered. It's clear in this that the Queen never quite recovered from We Free Men and the iron frying pan. Yeah. Actually, how interesting that she invokes that instead of the King.

Yeah. That's what's still at the forefront of her mind. It's still at the forefront of her mind and the King is probably, she doesn't know the King wouldn't take Peasblossom's side and be boys together. True. probably, she doesn't know the king wouldn't take Pea's Blossom side and be boys together. True. But she knows Tiffany Aking. Exactly. The patriarchy was the real villain all along, obviously. Quack quack motherfuckers. Patriarchy duck is back. We are proper on the retrospective train as we wind towards the end of this podcast. Choo choo motherfuckers. And the Queen gets thrown out of Fairyland, there is no triumph in this villain being defeated. And the Queen gets thrown out of Fairyland, there is no triumph in this villain being

defeated and the Queen is a villain. She has been the primary antagonist in two other disc worlds, but she is nasty. We hated her in Lords and Ladies when she was stealing Verance from Magorot. We were right to. She was a dick, but here there is no triumph in this moment, partly because it's not our hero that's defeated her, it's other dickheads. We know the villainy is still there. And partly because it's just so sad. And because all she really has to fight back with is invoking the belief in thunder and lightning and Tiffany aching. It is important that she has that belief in Tiffany aching. And you get the Queen screamed as she was thrown out of Fairyland, blood staining her shoulders, a scream with a life of its own

which ended in a duppon on the chalk surprising a stoke on the prowl, and I know we'll come back around to duppons. But that scene opens chapter 12, that comes on the heels of Tiffany making nanny laugh, having flown home with Jeffrey. It's an incredible contrast. And then we have her in the mound, we learn her name, we learn she's Nightshade, and you have a great little exchange between the Keldr and Tiffany, a poison, a word. Yes. And...

Yes. What is the name? What's in the name? What's in the name? The Keldr is not willing to believe much other than... Nightshade by any other name would be- As poisonous. Much of a dick, yeah. Yep, sorry, yours is better. But so instead of triumph in the scene, the Kelder is not willing to believe anything but the worst of nightshade, which is fair, which is very fair.

But she knows she can't see what's coming ahead. And so instead you get Tiffany in this moment. Tiffany says to change in a world of feeling that she stood between two causes of action and what she did next would matter. This she realizes what she's expected was coming her way, what Jeannie warned her about. Because a witch is always on the edge between the light and dark, good and bad, making choices every day, judging her all the time. We've got the liminal. We're in the middle. We've got the power of belief and we've got the liminal. And I'm not just checking boxes off. I think this is an incredible piece of writing to give this villain, this

completely unredeemable villain, any hint of redemption and make the audience believe in it, make the audience actually see that that redemption is possible is just masterful. Yeah, yeah. And it's possible and necessary from the sake of what we love, not just for the sake of redeeming someone so cruel and nasty. It's the sake of, and this is how it works in the best stories, which is redeeming the villain saves the hero. Yeah, saves the hero, saves the land. And it's not just a trite for the sake of, we're going to save the villain because that's

what we do. We don't let anyone die in this Disney movie. Yeah, we're saving the villain because that is what the hero needs. Yeah. And Pratchett's not afraid of killing a villain if the villain needs killing. Well, that's the thing. Pratchett would never write a redemption for Carta or for Tea Time. The closest we have to this in any other book dealing with a villain is the auditor that becomes so human that she chooses Death by Chocolate.

Yes. Yeah. And if you want to think about books, Pranchard books echoing the books that came before, I think Redeeming Nightshade is an echo of an order to become human. It's taking something very inhuman and forcing humanity upon them. Yes. But possibly for the best in this situation. Well, let's hope. Let's hope. Sorry, on Nightshade. No, no, not even on, well, kind of on Nightshade, but Genie, we say, and you're right to say,

that she can't see the good, she can't see the possibility of redemption here. She called Tiffany. She kept Nightshade alive for a reason. And I think it's because she knows she can't see this. But something in her says, this is a choice that needs more than one brain on it because... She has this very, very internal visceral thing that's been handed down to her as a Kelder. They say she recognizes the name Nightshade as the name of the Queen because the Keldas are taught that and pass it on to each other. She is aware that that bias is her and she knows that Tiffany is bias too, but at least there is another angle of thought in the situation.

Have we known Nightshade's name before? No, I think we do learn it for the first time here. Interesting. It's a good name, isn't it? Because it's one, one, it's like a false beauty thing, nightshade as well, isn't it? So, you know, to make you prettier, and then it would kill you on account if you shouldn't drop poison in your eyes. Fun fact. Yeah. Dear listeners, don't drop poison in your eyes. Fun fact. From the botanical podcast. Hello and welcome to the True Show, Make You Fret, a podcast about plants apparently. Two people who can't keep them alive. But we really like the books on folklore.

Speaking of folklore, do you have any more thoughts, any more research, any more ideas? No, I think all of the rest of the folklore stuff fits better in the next section. Amazing. Some shepherd's crony bits you know, bits and pieces. Very excited for that. So yeah, I think that's, I got in power of belief in the liminal as far as I'm concerned, I'm actually done with the podcast like next week is I've just got a free pass. Cool, just be me. Hello and welcome to the true shall make you friend. Help me. Oh no, you frozen. Oh no, I mean, I'll be here. Oh my god, you probably froze there as well. Oh my god, no.

Line. Francine, do you have an obscure reference video for me? I do. I thought I found out what a dew pond was because that sounded pleasant. And it is. Hooray. So a dew pond is an artificial pond. It's usually at the top of a hill and it's for watering livestock specifically. It is much better at retaining water than a normal pond or your average puddle. Heather Miedema Excellent. Emma Miedema Which is obviously very necessary if you want to water your livestock. You're not the kind of farm that can't buckets of water around

every day. Depending on what source you believe, some of them can be hundreds of years old, which is pretty cool. And they were regularly built until fairly recently, until the early 1900s really. So I'm going from a country life article here. The description in the Wiltshire Gazette of December 29, 1922 goes to show, up to 10 years ago, the Dew pond makers started upon their work in September, and they toured the country for a period of six or seven months, making sequence from six to 15 ponds in a season of winter and spring. You need about four weeks, you would take about eight feet of soil out to make a 22 square yard pond.

Wow, really shows how used I am to metric now. I really can't pop it to 22 square yards, but yeah. And then you lay the floor and it has to be covered over with straw. You can't do it in any frosty or inclement weather. You kind of put clay on the bottom, really tread it down. You know how the old way of making dirt floors used to be? Oh, right. Yeah.

That it's that kind of thing, but like a slightly high attack. And then you get like a coat of lime, you've got like that's polished. It's like a really, really labor intensive thing. And it was pretty cheap, like 40 pounds, which I know is not. I know it's quite a lot of money back then. But for something like this. Yeah, that's incredible. I know it's quite a lot of money back then, but for something like this. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, that's incredible. So the idea is that they are fed by dew as well and they're called dewponds because the dew is meant to kind of condense in them and roll in. There's been quite a lot of argument about whether it's just that it gets rained in and it's so waterproof that it doesn't leach out as easily but they do stay full and they

do seem to have been designed to take advantage of things like mist and rain clouds up on the hill. That's pretty cool. I love that. Deep ones are very nice and I kind of want one. I don't need one. Yeah I will also find some cool links because there are diagrams and illustrations and things. Also, you'll love this. A suggestion has also been made that the nursery rhyme about Jack and Jill might refer to collecting water from a dew pond at the top of the hill rather than a well. That would make more sense, wouldn't it?

That would make more sense actually. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Did you then look that up in the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes? No. All right, well, there's your homework. Okay, yes.

You're right. It would be interesting if they do have any kind of reference to that and G-pons and Jack and Jill. You also sent me a weird picture of a fox. Weird picture of a fox, Jack and Jill, villain spectrum. Villain spectrum, yeah. Okay, nice eclectic homework this week. Yeah. Delightful. Okay. I think that's everything we're going to say about part two of The

Shepherd's Crown. We will be back next week with part three, which starts where this one ended and goes to the end of the book. Fairly self-explanatory. If you hit the Ant Moor Pork Archives, you've gone too far. If an angry orangutan comes lurching at you out of the... You've gone into space. Yeah. Sorry, we can't help you now. It was nice having you. I just hope you remember to back up at home.

Right. So yeah, we will be back next week. Also dear listeners, we did a hint on the podcast a while ago about some kind of potential live Christmas episode. We want to announce we are going to be doing an online so you can attend from the comfort of your own home. We're going to stream one. We're going to do streaming. We're streamers now. We're going to do a live stream Hogswatch episode on the 21st of December. I promise not to pull this face the whole time. We're streamers now.

We are one time streamers. We are going to do a live episode. We will be reading letters from the Hogfather. Please dear listeners, send us your letters for the Hogfather because otherwise we'll have to make up content and we don't want to. All the information links, how to join us on the evening itself, it'll probably be about eight o'clock UK time. So hopefully there's some flexibility there for international listeners. All those links will be coming in the next

week or two. So keep an eye on the socials, keep an eye on the disco, keep an eye on the show notes. Keep an eye on the horizon. It won't help with the links, but it can be pretty. It can be. Watch a nice sunrise or sunset. There's your homework listeners. Yes, enjoy nature. Don't go in the woods alone. Oh, God, no. Remember to pack a banana. Bring a horseshoe. Anyway, as we're back next week, in the meantime, you can of course join our discord. There's a link down below. You can follow us on Instagram at the TrueShare Makeyfrat, on Twitter and BlueSky at MakeyfratPod, on Facebook at the TrueShare Makeyfrat, follow us on Instagram at the true show make you fret on Twitter and blue sky at make you fret pod on Facebook at the true show make you fret join us on Reddit r slash TTSM YF email us your thoughts queries castle snacks bits of moss at the

true show make you fret pod at gmail.com we need to make a dress make a dress and if you want to support us financially you can go to patreon.com forward slash the true show make you fret we need to exchange your hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And until next time, dear listener, don't let us detain you. I can't wait to do a live hog father bit. It's going to be so flawless. Remember, on the fly, I can't like photo edit you in. I am fully aware. I wasn't sure if you thought that that had happened like that.

I do not think that that has happened. I'm fully aware that we will have to use practical effects only.