The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 156: The Shepherd's Crown Pt. 3 (All These Things That Came Before)

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “The Shepherd’s Crown”. Meat! Two Veg! A Normal Amount of Emotions!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPod | Bluesky: makeyefretpod.bsky.socialInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Fairy loves - Oxford Reference  Apotropaic magic - Wikipedia Inescutcheon - Wikipedia (specifically: de Champagne-La Suze) Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Okay. Are you ready? No. I don't want to, I'm genuinely like struggling to start this. I know. All right. How are you? Are you good? Yeah, I'm good. As I said, I managed to make myself more emotional than I already was by trying to do some kind of flashy full circle thing. I tried to listen to the first couple of soft opens, which we didn't do, I guess, for the first couple of episodes. tried to listen to the first couple of soft opens, which we didn't do, I guess, for the first couple of episodes. No, I think we had a vague idea we were kind of going to, but we didn't. Remember, we used to like

plan our soft opens at one point. Well, yeah, every now and then. I think sporadically through the series, we've had like, bullet points, haven't we? Yeah. But yeah, there was one point where we were quite structured about it. But I honestly think at that point, we ended up with soft opens that were too long, to be honest, because I was less happy to just cut out 10-minute chunks. Yeah. It was something we actually wanted to talk about.

Obviously, now I script them thoroughly. Yeah, of course, now they're scripted. Which is why you're so cross with me all the time for cutting out huge 10 minute chunks. I worked so hard on this once, Francine, you have no idea. Yeah. As I said, first few seconds of the first episode, I hear my sadly past very much missed dog sigh into the microphone, which sets me off. And then the second episode within the soft open, we listened to the patriarchy duck for the first time. And so now I'm like hysterically laughing as well.

Excellent. It's all gone well. I think the main takeaway though was me introducing the first episode. Thus, the first book that we have read in an analytical fashion to regurgitate at you is so I think we can tell why Joanna took over that bit. So I think we can tell why Joanna took over that bit. Yeah, yeah. I feel like... Me ad-living was not... There's a lot that we said in those first episodes and there's a lot... I don't think I've ever actually gone back and listened to them. I don't think... I thought about

doing it for this and then... I've listened to bits and pieces when I wanted to go back and check something or when I just wanted to revisit our seating scones at a table. There's a couple of times I've listened to bits of the just-pre-pandemic ones to kind of torture myself with the bar. Pending doom. Yeah, I've definitely not gone back. I don't think I can go back and listen to any of the stuff around the pandemic, especially considering my whole life caught fire. I was going through some stuff. Honestly, so we've been doing this five years plus a month. And the amount that has changed in my life in those five, well, it's longer because we

started recording this in July 2019. Were those first episodes recorded July 2019? Yeah, because the plan was to record, to always be a month ahead, which had stopped happening by the end of that year. So we recorded in July and we were going to release them in August and then my mother passed away and I was like, can we pause that? Which is why, so they came out in November. Yeah. And then 2020 happened.

2020 definitely happened. So 2019 to 2020 was for funerals, a divorce and egg donation. That was a year. Oh man. And moving house. Yeah, that's right. Yep. Yep.

What a time it's been. What a time. I feel like, you know, we've grown, we've changed. But in a very, very important ways, I know, we've grown, we've changed. But in a very, very important ways. I think I laughed at exactly the same way, re-listening to the patriarchy duck this time as we did five years ago. The patriarchy duck remains hilarious. It is.

There is nothing funnier than the patriarchy duck. I want to know who made that noise. Like I should probably try and track that down. That's like a core part of me now that duck noise. It's like I kind of wonder because it's not like we didn't commission someone to do our theme music either you found that and obviously we paid for the rights to it and the person who made it is credited. But I do sometimes wonder like does that person know? Maybe I'll email him. Well, Chris Collins, if you're listening to this, thank you.

Here's a proper shout out. Here's a proper shout out after five years of... If you want to have some very reasonably priced royalty free music, go to IndieMusicBox.com. Because you picked the music and you found the patriarchy duck. It's the foley, I will say, has largely been me as the person in charge of the audio editing had only made sense. It does make sense and you've done a wonderful job. And it's really a shame that nobody's been able to see all of the visual effects you've

added to every episode. I work so hard on those. I do keep saying. Literally every episode I set up an explosion and then walk away from it in slow motion and just no one sees it because I know the noise reduction on zoom just gets rid of it. Like literally the work I have done on the pyrotechnics podcast. It does explain the two house moves. Yeah, that is largely down to the pyrotechnics.

My face still kind of hurts. What's your face hurt? Oh yeah, you have a random root canal the other day. That is a horrible, unpleasant situation. It's not my favorite. But the dentist and the dentist, dental assistant, dental nurse, were both very good at telling me how well I was doing throughout and I do respond well to praise. Yeah. I'm still on my second playthrough of Dragon Age Veilguard and I'm romancing the handsome older necromancer guy. But if you romance a character that they so when you're playing the game in combat, like the characters kind of shout like, good job, well done for killing

that person stuff. But with some of them that changes if you romance them. So now every time I kill someone with this guy in my party, he's like, well done dearest, excellent work darling. And honestly- This went in a better direction than I was expecting. I thought we were going to go good girl. No, no. That would make me yeet myself away from the game.

I have my limits. Not a girl. But yes, hearing well done dearest and good job darling on a very regular basis is actually very good for my mental health, I feel. Well done dearest. I think we need more dearests and darlings. I don't need to use darling more often. I use it too much. I use, I think my love and sweetheart more than I use darling. But it is fairly indiscriminate. It is, I think, between...

That gets darlinged. Yeah. Oh yeah, my partner definitely gets darlinged. But generally, there's more darlinging when I'm annoyed. Oh no, an aggressive darling, a passive aggressive darling. I can be very aggressive with my darlings. Apart from that, it's mostly because I'm really awful at names. And if I call everyone, if I culture, much like I have cultivated a reputation for being overdressed, so that I don't have to be anxious about what I wear, because if I'm overdressed, it's like, oh, that's just Joe. If I call everyone darling

all of the time, then no one finds it weird. And then it's okay if I call someone darling because I've forgotten their name. Nice. Yeah. My way of getting around the worrying about being overdressing is if I'm even slightly concerned about being overdressed, I make sure I have a denim jacket with me. The denim jacket is really good for that. DMs is my go-to for that. My work boots are quite often too muddy to be used for that effect, man. Yeah, I'm very rarely actually tramping through mud. If I know I'm tramping through mud, I have walking boots for it so that my DMs stay.

Your DMs are the city range rover of footwear. Well, to be fair, they also have worn the hole through the sole a little bit. Yeah, you don't want to wear those in the wet. I have actual walking boots. Like a proper person. No, not like a proper person. A proper person. I am not a proper person today.

I wonder how much diet coke we have drunk while making this podcast. Luckily, there's literally no way to find out because we didn't start videoing it for quite some time, or recording the video at least. We can't procrastinate by trying to find that out. Oh, that's going to make it rough. I am wondering what stats we want to put together though for the, the overall perspectives. Yeah. I suppose.

I'll work out obviously like how many minutes now as we've had. Yeah. I might just make some up. I might just guess, guess a number of diet cokes we've had. A number of times I've said the power of belief. I think it's more than 80 Francine. More than 80 diet cokes. What each?

Oh, well, no, I was thinking total. Okay. I mean, even each, you know, we've done 150 episodes and I'm 90% sure you have probably you would probably average one maybe more per episode. But I can tell you what another sound effect right from the first episode was us eating giant coaxes. Yeah, yeah. That's a way we haven't evolved as people since we were teenagers.

No, that's true. We tried to record a couple of songs with our friend. There were definitely, there was not cans of diet coke that we were opening in the background. Something else, grown up diet coke. Talking like all of our listeners are seven years old now. It was Carlsberg. it wasn't grown up, Francie. It was Carlsberg. Possibly best foley in the world. It was the second cheapest lager at the spa.

Second cheapest because we're not animals, right? We're gentlemen. Speak for yourself. I'm a gentleman. I'm a gentleman, sir. I feel like I need to rip off a glove, snap you with it and offer to jewel you. God. A bit late for that, isn't it? Yeah, do you want to make a podcast instead? Yeah, alright, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to The True Shall Make You Fret, a podcast in which we have read and

recapped... No, I can't do that. A podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one at a time, in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part three of our discussion of The Shepherd's Crown, the final Discworld novel. The final Discworld novel and the final battle, a wonderful melee. The fight for the Chalk and Lanker and all that's good and green and...

Yeah, thunder and lightning. Very very frightening. The bones beneath the hill and their spirits in the sky. Before we get into all of that, a note on spoilers before we crack on dear listeners. We were a Spoiler Light podcast, this episode will contain spoilers up to and including all of The Shepherd's Crown, and we want to say a massive thank you to the dear little listeners that have come on the journey with us. The journey from a Spoiler Light podcast to all of a sudden a podcast so heavy with spoilers it may turn into a neutron star. Entirely possible. Anyway,

so small gods, no. You'll never guess what happens with that turtle. And it was that time that Vimes took his shirt off on top of a train. There was no turtle. There was no turtle, yeah, weird. No turtle, weird. There was no urn either, which makes me feel like that maybe we shouldn't be... I'm not sure that scene had enough artistic merit, Frances. Oh no, and this is a family friendly podcast. Since when?

I don't know, you kept telling me it was at one point. Do you remember like way back near the beginning, we asked if we had any like younger listeners and we got an email from someone who was like 12 who was listening to the podcast. If that person's still listening, I'm really sorry, it was like four years ago, so I can't remember your name, but I'm guessing you're like 16 now. So I hope your GCSEs are going well. it was like four years ago so I can't remember your name but I'm guessing you're like 16 now so I hope your GCSEs are going well. Jesus right we actually have to do this podcast don't we? Yeah no I think we probably better. We probably should. Okay quick bit of follow-up.

Oh yeah. So the 24th of November was the 41st anniversary of The Colour of Magic coming out, just as we're talking about the 41st Discworld book. F***ing blowing this thing wide open. Thank you Pratchat for congratulating us on that because we hadn't realized we forgot the anniversary again. Well done Pratchat. As always, way more on the ball than we ever can be. Our professional Forexian cousins. I know and they've outlived us too. And they've outlived us and they started before us. And I'm saying outlived us like it's a battle but to be fair they have not once tried to

murder us that I've been aware of. If they have they've failed miserably so I'm choosing to assume we're all still friends. And slightly less big news but Nathan in the Discord informs us that they had a nature facts book growing up that told them ostriches can be trained to herd sheep. So, I mean, if an ostrich can do it. I'd say that's massive news actually. Yeah, there's massive news. Fucking hell. Thank you, Nathan. I think that proves my point. If you don't have a goat, an ostrich will do.

Yes. Francine, do you want to tell us what happened previously in The Shepherd's Crown? Certainly. Previously on The Shepherd's Crown. Tiffany, a young witch who, let's be honest, didn't get enough sleep as it was, is now responsible for two steadings. A concerned earwig has a word in Tiffany's shell like and is quickly shown the door. But Tiffany realises she had a point. Speak of the devil, here comes Mephistopheles and the gentler,

Geoffrey, who's put to work as a not quite witch in training. The Queen of the Fairies is unthrown, unwinged and underground. In the securely hostile Fegal Mound, she reveals her name as Nightshade. Tiffany takes her back to the farm to be domesticated. Peaseblossom is free to do as he pleases and what he pleases pleases nobody else. The elves wreak havoc on Hill and Mountain. Both of Tiffany's steadings are under attack and things can only get worse as the elves realize how sin the thin places have become. Ooh. Ooh. How about this time?

This time, which starts in Chapter 14 and goes all the way to the end of the book. All the way to the end. Not saving any. Off the edge of the disc. Spoiler heavy podcast. Off the edge of the disc, plunging into the abyss as Rincewind did at the end of the first book. A circle. I found a circle. There it is. Perfect.

Thank goodness. In chapter 14 of The Shepherd's Crown, the book we are currently talking about, Tiffany takes nightshade to the family farm. There's healing glamour and threats and thoughts of work. Meanwhile an elf-weary Magret pays a visit to Tiffany. The elves are coming and the witches are needed. In chapter 15, elves almost take baby Tiffany, and Tiffany aching delivers a fiery reckoning in response. On a suggestion from Nanny, Tiffany visits the suggestive barrows and asks the elf king to be a king. There's a need for new entertainments, and Tiffany arranges for a shed. Pea's Blossom lounges, laughing at weakened barriers, and

makes plans for the full moon, while Tiffany teaches Nightshade humanity. In Chapter 16, Jeffrey has been making friends and visiting sheds, and Mr Sideways has been inventing. Magret takes tea with Latisha and convinces her to assist with the elves, while Nightshade unfouls a stream. In Chapter 17, the Witches plan for battle at Lanka Castle. The full moon is coming and they'll be fighting in the hills and on the chalk. Before the moon rises, Tiffany tries to rest and she dreams of the shepherd's crown, of thunder and lightning, and of the land under wave.

In chapter 18, it begins and Tiffany wears her crown into battle. Elves come through and Jeffrey tries for peace before the old men intervene and Swarf is fired. The Lanker Witches see the elves off but Peaseblossom has arrived on the Chalk and the melees begin. Nightshade stands and she's killed for her trouble. Tiffany and the land fight back and the Chalk is cleansed as Tiffany summons the King who agrees to absent the elves. Nightshade will be remembered. In chapter 19 the Fiegls feast Victorious and the old men are down the pub. Witches meet. Geoffrey receives a studying, a cottage and an ambassadorship to Don when visiting his father,

and Mephistopheles delivers a victorious kick. In the epilogue, Tiffany builds a hut and makes a home. Lovely. It is lovely. The witches meet has similar vibes to the fleet meet, and how expensive that would be to put on in real life. Very much so. A helicopter and loincloth watch? Yeah, please tell me any helicopters? Well, for helicopter I've gone for as a bit of a twofer is a hint of loincloth in there, but the

Fiegel's flying kilts in celebration. Not the boomerang, eh? No, I thought that was too obvious. Yeah, no. And I missed it. Yeah. But I'm hoping it'll come back around. And for loincloth, of course, we have our full gathering of witches on Decheville, which

has the great line of Magret walking in as all of these witches are in various states of trying to get more on than just their underwear. Wild surmises take on many shapes in every witch, some still in their underwear, stared at the queen and the surmises each gave her hung there in the rafters. And then Magritte suggests donning heavy duty knickers. So again, we've got bonus there. Quotes then. Do you want to go first? Yeah. I'll go first. As it's the last one, obviously I wanted to pick something truly beautiful and poignant from this lovely book. Yeah. So I've taken from the wisdom of Mrs. Eerwig.

but yeah, so I've taken from the wisdom of Mrs. Eerwig. I will not as I see fit. Words to live by dear listeners, words to live by. What about you? Yeah. So we've swapped places here and I've gone for the obnoxiously long. Oh, like I'm not going to shoehorn in. Beautiful bit of purple praise, I know. Like I've got plenty to shoehorn in throughout the episode, Francie. Don't you worry.

Okay. And the shepherd's crown was shining like a living thing in front of her. A shepherd's crown, not a royal one. A crown for someone who knew where she had come from. A crown for the lone light zigzagging through the night sky, hunting for a single lost lamb. A crown for the shepherd who was there to a single lost lamb. A crown for the shepherd who was there to herd away the predators. A crown for the shepherd who could work with the best sheepdogs any shepherd could possibly have. The shepherd's crown. That is such a beautiful moment.

And as I'm feeling already quite emotional and thinking back to that very emotional quote about granny aching looking for the lost lamb, That was an unwise thing for me to pick. Are you getting emotional, Fran? A little bit. It's all right. I'll pull it back. Cool. Right. Let's talk about Tiffany. That won't make us emotional. No, no. It's not like we followed her from a young girl to the powerful, self-assured young woman she's now become, drawing her power as she has from the start, from the very bones of the hill.

Exactly. Which is surprisingly full of mollusk. I'm not that surprised. I feel like that's where you'd find bits of mollusk. Well, that's true, but I feel like a large part of that deep knowledge has come from practice. Yes. We'd probably come across the knowledge that, what's the life of mollusks live in

chalk because we do live on some chalky ground ourselves. But I think the poetry of it might have been lost on us. No, we have gained that knowledge from Pratchett. Thank you Pratchett for providing us with such helpful knowledge. Specifically. providing us with such helpful knowledge. Specifically. Yeah, Tiffany fighting in this section, like Tiffany's ability to fight back is fantastic. Straight away with Nightshade trying the glamour at the farm and her just absolute nope, you're

not doing that. And I love that she uses the counting to center herself, the yantan tethera. A little meditation. Yeah, like using it as a... Oh, what's the word? Mantra. Mantra, yes, absolutely. Like a focus point to work through the pain, basically, isn't it? It's the same thing you'd use as like a pain relief system, but for a glamour being flung at your face. Yeah. And then later on, she doesn't even need it as such when she's confronting Pea's Blossom

and he's trying to glamour her. But rage was a useful tool and she hated that grinning face. Rage is a useful tool. And it is a very hateful face. I'm going to sound a little hypocritical there because I was slightly critical about Moispon Litvig's random massacre, but I rather enjoyed Tiffany burning a few elves to death. I support this random massacre. She did react more as I would expect. She had a moment of crisis and had to be reassured

by Nani Og who quite rightly said that burning elves who were torturing a baby to death, burning elves to death when they were torturing a baby to death, burning elves to death when they were torturing baby was the correct thing to do. Yeah. But I like that she does consider it. And in the moment where she's thinking about it, because she thinks herself they're just elves and then cat stops herself. And Tiffany knew that if a witch started thinking of anyone as just anything, that would be the first step on a well-worn path that could lead to poisoned apples and spinning wheels and a too small stove and to pain and terror and horror and the darkness. And the fact that that's the same internal, I don't know struggle, but consideration we see granny

have a lot. The same internal journey, I would say. Journey, the journey. The journey or step on the journey. Yeah, treating people as things, as sin. Yeah. That's where it begins. But the specific word choices as well, the references to things like the poisoned apples. And that's the sort of thing granny thinks about.

And that makes sense because granny, I would imagine, told Tiffany about Black Alice or maybe it was Miss Tick or Nanny Og, but they're all drawing from the same cultural wealth. Yeah. But I think there are a couple of sort of moments of nice, like specific granny comparisons. The other one I spotted was Nightshade asked Tiffany why she does everything and says, but you're so powerful, you could rule the world. And Tiffany says, why would I want to do that? I'm a witch. I like being a witch, which is almost word for word, the conversation granny has with death at the beginning of the world. And Tiffany says, why would I want to do that? I'm a witch. I like being a witch, which is almost word for word the conversation granny has with death at the beginning of the book. Yeah. And of course, during Witch of the Broad granny talking, well, partly to Lilith and partly to herself about why she didn't become this all powerful being. Yeah. And a large part of it

is because I would be too good at it. Tiffany, I don't think has reached that realization yet, but I have a feeling she would in a couple of years. Should I take more power? No, because I don't know when that would stop. Yeah. I think having had adversaries is good. And I think being able to focus so much on things like the barriers is also a reason to not go out seeking more power, if that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you've got to shore up your foundation, not over-stretch yourself. And you know, that again, another very mature realization that she can't continue in that stead. Not just that she can't continue in that setting.

Not just that she can't continue, but that she has not failed by not continuing. That not being able to continue is not a smear on her in any way, shape or form. She's not beating herself up over it. She's making the best choice, both for her and for the people. She wears the Shabbos crown because she puts others before herself. I liked as well when she's in the Elf King's kingdom and she's reassuring herself of who she is and that she is not easily toyed with and what have you and she specifically thinks to herself, I am the maiden and I am also the hag. Oh yeah, that was good, wasn't it? Yeah. It's a great line but also thinking about her role in that cycle of three and what I

was saying in the first episode about it not going to another crone but this non-existent leadership position that very much exists going to another crone, but this non-existent leadership position that very much exists going to the maiden and the cycle starting anew. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. She's all of them. She's all of the bits. She's all of the stuff. She's everything. Everything's connected. Several times it is mentioned that she's a shepherd because she puts herself before others, which is very, you know, at least stereotypical mothering. Yes. Right. And she has the wisdom of the crones that came before her, not just granny weather wags, but obviously granny aching. Yeah. Yeah. I like how we slowly evolved from crone

being from the other one to something we just say aloud, you know, the wisdom of the crones that came before me. Yeah. I respect the crones. I respect respect crows and the crows. And the crows definitely respect the crows. Let it not be said that the truth shall make you fret has ever disrespected the crows. I feel like we've always been very good to corvids in general. I think we're a thumbs up on corvids podcast. Yeah, we've never even used the term stone the crows to express surprise because one, that would be oddly archaic.

Yeah, that is true. And two, we do not wish to upset our COVID brethren. Just in case there are any crows listening. Anyway, sorry, Tiffany's hut then. Tiffany's hut, what a nice thing. What a beautiful thing. Don't you love that? Don't you love her instinct to make it herself as well? Yes, it needs to be something she has made and she has built. The iron foundations of Granny A. King. Yes. I didn't have time to go through the book and look, but I know there's a few

beautiful bits in Rob's book where he talks about the shepherd's hut that Terry Pratchett kept and spending time in there. So I feel like there's just a lot of, I mean, we know the chalk is based on where he lived and I think there's a lot of that in there. Yeah. I think we talked about it in one of the other Tiffany books. Yes. About those extracts from the books, I'm going to say it's fine, we covered it. I hope so. Listeners, if we're wrong, please send your answers on a shepherd's hut.

Because then we'll each have one. Yes, we'll be wrong, but goddamn, we'll be toasty. The line where she's talking about the fact that she can roll it to wherever she likes as well. And she could see the sunrise and set and the moon dance through its guises. The magic of the everyday that was no less magic for that. Do you think she will live in the hut through winter? I hope she pops home fairly regularly when she needs to. Yeah, I think she's more capable perhaps of making a fire out of magic than Granny Aking

was, but one of the first things we learn of course in Wiching is that using magic to start a fire is wasteful, is wrong somehow. Esk asks Granny about that and Granny says, no, that's not what we do. But the lumberjack camps are near enough by that she'll be helping out. So I think they'd probably keep a well stocked on wood as a thank you. Yeah, definitely. Do you think she'll get her own sheep dogs? Absolutely. I think she'll be gifted a couple of puppies at some point. Yeah, I noticed by the way that thunder and lightning are mentioned as having their bones

in the hill as granny aching. And I wonder whether that's a joining dot because eventually they will have had to die and their bones would have been taken by the hill because I believe that when Granny Aking's death is described that thunder and lightning are described as disappearing. Yeah, they just sort of walk away. They aren't buried. But I would assume they stayed around the hills and yeah, eventually they were there. But even if not, their mesophorecal bones were there. Also on the idea, just full head canon, but also beautiful mental image.

I was just picturing if Tiffany was gifted a couple of little sheepdogs and raised them from puppies, them learning to herd the Fiegls. I just want to take a minute to the mental image of little baby border collies herding Fiegls. Okay. Anyway, Nightshade. Nightshade. Let's talk about Nightshade. She, what a redemption arc, Elvis redemption arc. Love a redemption arc. Always a big fan of a redemption arc. It's a bit of a short redemption

arc. It does all take place very quickly. Yes. Well, we've got other things to be talking about. Well, yeah, we've got mailos happening everywhere. Up the wazoo. I like bringing back the China Shepardess outfit again. That's what she initially appears in when she sort of makes herself look like a country girl. It's perfect, isn't it? I think she must have seen the China Shepardess, mustn't she, on Tiffany's shelf? Either that or the China Shepardess exists in the same extended universe as that fairy tale book. I think there's hints of that and there's hints

of like Tiffany was in fairyland and big confusing dreams and stuff. So I feel like she's kind of aware of the image via Tiffany somehow. That's true. Yeah. All very metaphysical. She makes herself into a less frilly country made and dons some sensible boots to walk around, which is where she gets her sort of empathy lessons. Yes, that's what I'd say. And the death scene is, I remember the death differently from when I read it the first

time. I thought it took place before all of the big battles and stuff. I didn't remember it happening in the battle. But that was just, clearly my brain decided to rearrange the book for some reason. I like this better. Yeah, it's very brutal and perfect demonstration or peace blossom, just casual disregard for life. Yeah. She held herself like a queen again and such was the power of her presence that even the Fiegls paused in the frozen silence. That was an incredible line. Yes.

And Tiffany's adoption specifically of she was my friend, and I think the friendship there is really interesting and Tiffany immediately considering a friend because Tiffany is so rarely around any kind of equal. Because the other witches, she's now senior to the other ones at her age, but the ones that are older than her, obviously they have this different relationship. Yeah, and even the even peers among witches, I mean, it would be difficult. They were, but I think it would be difficult for Granny Weatherwax to describe Nanny Org as a good friend, despite the fact that they were besties. Yeah, exactly.

Because they're besties in the context of Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Org. But no, but they were besties. It's complicated. It's complicated friendship between witches. It is complicated. If you think she has a friend like Letitia, but again there's a very, there's all these strange layers to the relationship. Again, Letitia being sort of a witch but not really, but also being married to the Baron and so the peerage differences. So yeah, she doesn't have a lot of people she can just say friend, but she can say this about Night Shade because we see the friendship happen during the redemption arc, but also she is the combination

of powerful and other that I think allows Tiffany to consider her a friend. There's a way they can be equal because they are different if that makes sense. It does, I think, yeah. So I thought that was interesting. And yeah, R.O.P. R.O.P. F5. Who else do we have? We have the King. Mmm. He's turned back out, hasn't he? Yeah, I like that he came back.

I think I mixed things up because I mixed up the big chalk man with the large chalk willy and the suggested barrow. It's not a large chalk willy. No, this isn't a large chalk willy. No, this isn't a large chalk willy. There is a chalk man with a large willy and there are the suggestive barrows where the king lives. And I think I said that the king lived at the large chalk willy, which clearly I hadn't. I don't remember me saying that, so that's fine. I was in a different book, but I remembered it and felt awful about mixing up my large

suggestive geography. So I wanted to make sure we're all on the same page. CHARLEYY I see. Oh, what is it? Is this the remit of Rincewind in his position of cruel and unusual geography? I'm not sure it goes this far. CHARLEYY Bracket's explicit. CHARLEYY Only if there's a potato involved. CHARLEYY Yeah. Rincewind's suddenly getting really confused about waffle fries. Fantastic. No, so the king. I was thinking about this, right? This specific masculinity of the king's kingdom. I nearly considered four loin cloths doing an absence of loin cloth with the various bits of visible meat and two veg.

A really very obvious absence of loin cloth in that barrow. Yeah, there is distinct lack of loin cloths. Tiffany's having a day. Thank goodness she's a little older. She's a bit older and she's done plenty of medical work, I'm assuming. Yeah. This isn't totally new to her. Okay, but I have questions about gender and elves. So apart from the queen, all the elves have he-him pronouns and present as varying degrees of masculine. And obviously that implies, you know, a beehive type relationship with the

one queen. And I'll talk more about bees later because I will always find time to talk about bees, obviously. But then there's a clear divide between the queen's elves and the king's elves, the king's elves being these naked oiled up wrestlers and then the queen's elves being plaid in various ways and just being in her bit of fairy land, which has got a very different vibe. It's colder. There's lots of these polar opposites as well as masculine and feminine, there's the fire and ice a bit all. So gender is sort of more of a vibe than anything else to the Elms, I think. They're definitely among these creatures for whom it really depends on context as to what

gender they are. There are a lot of those in the natural world and in the supernatural as it turns out. Very much so. I'm just saying, you know, the kind of vague lack of gender when it comes to elves, A, I would love like a dwarf type reckoning idea of elves, like what if a king's elf becomes a queen's elf or vice versa. I like to think it would be fairly fluid, you know what I mean? Just like, oh, yes, I'm here. Yeah, there's tons of gender fluidity. I just would love to see some in

town. But also I finally found something I like about the elves. Yeah, well, non problematic representation. I think we can all agree. Diversity win. The worst people you ever know are also non binary. Oh, and they've all got proper non binary names, don't they? Yeah. Find you a moth who's got a gender. Yeah, I think not. Gonna change my name to moth. I'm not gonna change my name to moth. It's gonna be mustard seed. Right, let's talk about Jeffrey. Let's talk about Jeffrey. I love Jeff. Speaking of non-binary icons. That's a much better icon, Daph. Diversity win. Your current non-binary icon has a very violent goat. No, actually to tie Jeffrey to the elves, not literally, because that would be a horrible experience for all in Sundry. The foxtail set up, I think is a really cool moment. You have like Jeffrey's

fury at the fox hunting in the first part of the book. And then you have Lord Lankin, who's gone out and he goes to chat to Peasblossom, a glorious red broom of a tail slung casually around his neck, a memento of a recent raid. And then later, Jeffrey ends up being the one confronting Lankin as he comes through the dances in Lanka. And for now, his eyes are caught the flash of red fox fur swinging on its leather thong across the Lord's chest and rage began to build. And he says, we're not here for your sport. And that's what helps him throw off the glamour. So just setting it up and having the fox tail that I thought that was really clever writing. And having a similar moment to Tiffany where the rage overpowers the glamour. Yeah. And

the fox that's kind of repeating mini motif is pleasant. Yeah. Well, not pleasant exactly, because it's poor things. But you get the obviously Reynard and the fox in Boosterhunt and you get the fox barking in the night at one point and you get the fox turning up at Granny's graveside. We don't have a lot of foxes in Discworld and it's nice to see a little bit of... Fox representation. A little flash of red. A little flash of red.

And they'll all be a little safer now, thanks to Geoffrey's chicken run antics. I had to say antics after Chicken Run, I think just because the movie so lodged in my head, but Chicken Run innovations. I do love the movie. The ambassadorship and going to his father, obviously we're not really in Geoffrey's head, we're not seeing much of an internal monologue, but I like that he is very nice and he is very, and isn't this exciting father, you won't have to see this and you can see all the smugness is there and it's totally deserved. This has got to

feel great. But none of it's stated and it's so that on this and because Jeffrey is such a nice character, you could read it totally surface and say he is genuinely delighted and read it as naivety and it's obviously not. So I thought it was really well written. moment of pride. G. Yes. And then his father getting kicked by a goat. L. Oh, and his brother Hugh shouted hurrah for no particular reason, except it felt like someone should. G. Yeah, I do also like the sort of the brothers in, if you think this is a very similar family to like William DeWerd, and at another time, Geoffrey might have been sent to Hugglestones. And William DeWerd has the similar thing. His brothers aren't really, his dad was the dick, his brothers weren't really that bad. They would just shout hurrah at

times. By the way, well, we're on Jeffrey, little Mephistopheles tangent. He's a strange creature. He can turn a dark day into a clear one. Look into his eyes sometime. McTavish looked and then hastily looked away. What's in his eyes, Joanna? I don't know. And I don't, I'm not sure if I want to. It's none of our business really, is it? I think it's best left alone, Francine. Yeah, all right, we'll leave that goat be. We will not get that goat.

Going from Jeffrey's talking about Mr. Sideways, actually, we haven't really talked about the shed thing at all yet, have we? We haven't. No, before we do, I just like speculate whether Arnold sideways is relative of our new sideways. Oh, yes, of the Shire sideways is. Anyway, yes, sorry, shed. Yeah, it was just we haven't really talked about it much. It's a really nice subplot in the book that Jeffrey doesn't just see others this kind of issue of the old man not having, you

know, much fulfillment in their lives, but he does something about it, something very physical and tangible, which is get a shed, have a space that is your space where you get to have your life where you are not underfoot. Yeah. And trust Pratchett to get a very, you know, let's find a gendered space and make it specifically masculine and not make it even a bit weird. Well done, Precet. Yeah, it doesn't feel like icky gender stuff. It just feels like, yeah, this is something that's needed and it fulfills the roles that

people currently have in their lives. Yes. Let us acknowledge the fact that these people have lived these lives and let us work with that instead of projecting what we believe they should find useful. Exactly. Exactly. And the way the different sheds reflect the different personalities, the way Geoffrey's level of acceptance is measured by being invited to the sheds, where Tiffany wouldn't necessarily be. Yeah, definitely. Oh, and the shed outside the Elf Barrow.

And yeah, the Elf King being given his shed. Oh yeah, the elf king being given his shed. This is, oh yeah, you're basically just one of those blokes that was underfoot and you kind of just need that, don't you? For what is a explicit barrow full of naked elves, if not a geographic shed? Sorry, no, that was going to go somewhere better and I got distracted halfway trying to think of a non-explicit way to refer to those elves.

You got distracted by the naked elves. I got distracted by the naked elves in my brain. Anyway, let's talk about a fully dressed character then. Should we talk about Mr. Sideways briefly I wanted to mention? Yeah, sorry. I managed to say because I'm quite tender there. That was always going to happen. There's a lot of meat and two veg in this book. And a lot of sideways. Oh, so yeah, Mr. Sideways. Pratchett, again, just being really good at- sorry, I got distracted

by the naked elves that time. Shirt on vines. Pratchett's ability to just paint this really full picture of a character in a few words. I like it when he does this and he does it really well with Mr. Sideways, who is meticulously dressed and in the city might have been described as dapper. I feel like you know so much about this lovely gentleman from that. And then he talks about the weapons he keeps in his old barn next to the shed. And Geoffrey's sort of looking around it and there's this great line, the machinery of death was everywhere. And then he talks about this smiling old man,

eyes sparkling, ready to face the foe. And he was known as laughing boy. Laughing boy. I think Jeffrey is sort of, before that, he's looked at this thing, these men look like they're underfoot, they need something, here is this tangible thing, here are the sheds. But I think this is the moment where he goes, oh, and also there's a whole lot to these men. And I really need to not write them off as people who just need entertainment. Exactly. Yeah. And again, this is something that Pratchett looks at on occasion, which is the fact that this old person is not like an old, this isn't a trope in trousers, this is somebody who's

lived a much fuller life than you, youngster. And has a lot of interesting things to say and to do. Yeah, absolutely. And the idea of the fastidious or meticulous older man, I think we've had a few times as well in the Discworld, haven't we? We just said it's not a trope, but that bit, that is a trope I like of the character. And of course, revisiting this machinery of death thing. We have the last iteration of one of our favorite repeated things. Oh yeah, the things that aren't weapons, but could absolutely be weapons when necessary.

And it's like Pranchard goes, hey, you know that theme we've been using since I was literally 17 years old? He has a massive shed of it. How's this for a motif? Pulling across the corrugated iron door, clang, clang, clang. Oh, fuck. Oh, it's like that trope I really like where like for some reason someone in a fantasy, whatever has to divest themselves of weapons and the weapons just keep coming out. And your socks. It's knobby going into the in-guards guards and they're better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.

Exactly so. I want to say menagerie, the word is not menagerie, the menagerie of weapons, you know what I mean? Yeah, menagerie of machinery of death. Speaking of menageries and naked elves, Nanny. Yeah. She knows the way around me and too veg. She's got a new cookbook out. Yeah. And also is really dismissive about books. books? I quite like that. Only because I feel like sometimes reading in this love of books gets like overly fetishised. And I like Pratchett as a writer, putting in characters who we

know were incredibly powerful and great who just could not give a crap about that specific thing. Yeah, and does still make quite a lot of money off of it. What's the title of the new book? Sorry, you must have written this down. I didn't. A little of what you fancy makes you fat or something like that. It's beautiful. I'm very sad that we don't physically have a copy of it. Obviously, we have the joy of snacks in our lives. I do love the idea of Nanny having such disdain for bookish people. Let's see someone who's at her book signing. I'm going to imagine this is a thing now and every time she's like, oh yeah? Hi.

Yeah, it's a cookbook. It's a cookbook. It's got practical uses. It's not to ride a golden broomstick, which is full of waft. That's true. Cookbooks are a practical, important thing to have. Like an almanac. Yeah, exactly. She makes it out of thin paper. I think she absolutely has a word with the publisher about making sure it's decent, the right sort of paper.

Once somebody's memorized this. Exactly. You'd have to worry a little bit though. This is Discworld, of course, and books do take on personality and if you wipe yourself with some of those pages. Anyway, I'm just gonna move us right on. I think that's a good idea, please. I'm just going to move us right on from there. I think that's a good idea, please. Really great tense moment when Tiffany goes and speaks to Nanny and she talks about killing the elves

and Nanny reassures her and says, you know, we're witches and we have to have the power for the reason. She gets a nice line, we have to make sure it's the right reason. But then she knocks the knickknack on the floor. Nanny knocked the knickknack. And she doesn't notice. A present from Quam from one of her daughters-in-law and Nanny hadn't even noticed she had knocked it over. Nanny, who treasured every small object her family gave her, who would never, ever fail to notice if something was damaged. And it's just great, like, how concerned Nanny is for the elves. But also, so in Lords and Ladies,

because we're from Magret's point of view so much. We know nanny and granny are concerned, but we don't know the level of it because they're keeping it from Magret so much. Yes. Whereas now we have this really clear, I am that concerned. And also, I'm not concealing any of this from Tiffany, partly because Tiffany is very different to Magret. And also because I've learned my lesson, this is not the time to hide this and tell anyone not to worry about it. This is to make sure everyone's worried and that we sort this out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If Brandy's not around, we all have to do some worrying.

Yes. So yeah, I thought that was a really good moment. That was a good moment. And Magrat, I love that Magret's back for this. I missed Magrat. Yeah. It's been a while, isn't it? I was just trying to think. Yeah, it has really been a while. And I like that she's back in her Queen Incy. She's back in her chain mail. She's back in her chain female. Okay, that line was cringe.

It was, but it's very magrant. It is very magrant. That's very true. It's appropriate. But I like she is, she takes charge. She is the one who says, right, we'll host all the witches at Lancaster Castle because we've got the room. It's a big fucking castle and I'm it. But I like, she takes charge. She is the one who says, right, we'll host all the witches at Lancaster Castle because we've got the room. It's a big fucking castle and I'm going to be the one getting up and yelling at people. Yeah, yeah.

And she's not taking any authority from Tiffany by doing that. It's just she is a queen. She is in charge. Yeah. There are different levels, not even levels of authority, different flavors of authority. Yeah. And if you've got to organize people around the castle, being a queen, not a bad position to be in. Yeah. And at no point does Nanny ask her to make the tea. Well done, Nanny. Very well-trained of you. Well done, Nanny. We've had some growth.

Also I wanted to mention Verence quickly just because like once again Pratchett writing really good wife guys. Yeah. Verence, total wife king. And sometimes holds the baby the right way. Well, yeah, and we can't have everything. Noted, they now have three children. They do, happy for them. They obviously worked it out eventually.

The right book arrived. Well, yes, we saw young Esme, didn't we? Yeah, but that could have been a fluke. That could have been a fluke. So it's nice to know they got that. Anything happened in the dark. But yeah, when she's first getting the broomstick out and going to realise she needs to take care of things, she doesn't have to be told the elves are coming, she knows the barriers

are thin. Yes. And he just says, oh, back on the old broomstick, glad to hear it. I've seen your face when a witch flies by and no man can keep a bird in chains. And just, we love a supportive king. We appreciate it. supportive king, slang and real. Exactly. Again, wife king, queen guy. wife king, queen guy.

Queen king, no. Queen going off to slay. No slang involved here. Mephistopheles is the goat. I'm very sorry. We're talking about Magrata. I can't help but slip into cringe. Yeah, no, that's fair. I love her. Letitia. Letitia, my notes on her, as I realized she turned her general sogginess into water witch. Yes, it came slightly unhinged because I was very excited that the

general wetness had become something to be proud of. Powerful. She flowed through the Elves there was a certain magic to it as if she was some goddess of water streaming everywhere. No stopping it. Cool. I'm very happy for her. Imagine having a bit of magic behind you when you're trying to do watercolours. That'd be great. I bet she's really good. I really like actually, so she has the tea with Margaret and she sort of has a brief panic which I think is fair for a young Baroness with an unexpected Queen visiting. Absolutely, would you not? And she's made the cupcakes from Nanny Org's recipe book, which I think is a nice detail. She is doing the odd practical thing.

Yeah, Margaret's like, hmm. I've already got three children. But I think there's something about the details of this, like Letitia is acting exactly as we expect a young Baroness to look and she's showing off her watercolours, but her watercolour is off the chalk giant and she has not spared any detail, especially in the trouser, slash lack of reasons. He's very down to earth Baroness. Exactly. I really like this. Down to that particular spot of earth, if we really get down to it.

I mean, if she's that into the giant, no wonder what's this, Roland's maybe worried he's a bit inadequate. That's got to be difficult to look at. Actually, that's a good point. If this is the main explicit reference they've got in the house. I said the word explicit in this podcast more than I think I've done in all the rest of the 155 episodes. I swear we don't normally talk about penises this much. No, I think we're finally devolving. I'm amazed we got this far. Speaking of dicks, Mrs. Iwig. Speaking of dicks, also speaking of pincer movements. Just wanted to get that in before I forgot. Mrs. Iwig is mentioned in the same paragraph as a pincer movement and that made

me smile. Excellent. Well done, Terry Pratchett. Thank you, Terry Pratchett. That's a delight one. Automatically resistant to glamour. Nightshade describes it as like hitting a rock. This one has something missing. Who else have we met? Who else have we met? Of the witches?

Of anybody. There's somebody else who's had a very similar response to a very similar magic. Is it Carrot? Might be Carrot. No, I know. I think it's somebody arrogant. I feel like I've had this some maybe I'm just thinking last summer read this. Quite possibly. No, I think you're right. I think there might be another one and I can't think who it is. Listeners answers on what's that book called? The Golden Broomstick.

Yeah, yeah. A torn out page of that. I mean, I can think of characters that I think would be impervious. Yeah, let's see that. Like veterinary, it's not going to work on. That's true. Do you think he would, I think he would get halfway into the first sort of insecurity and find it fascinating because he's never thought like that. Yeah, I feel like it would shut him down, but because he's examining his thought process, not

because he's fallen for the glamour. That's it. And it would look from the outside like he'd fallen from the glamour. But then in a few paragraphs time of whatever the action is, he would just come out of it as normal. Wake up and go anyway. I feel like Anna Grammar, like I feel like she would have been as well. Rob talks in the afterword about the fact that this book would know a book like this would normally have gone through a few more like passes and things. And I feel like Anna Grammar may be getting anything to do in that section and possibly also being impervious to the Grammar, the glamour would be quite likely.

I don't know, she did have a lot of insecurity. No, she does. No, she doesn't. She shuts off those bits of her brain, you know, like Tiffany helps her and teaches her how to be a witch and her responses. Well, it was lovely of you. And I've I did all of that. But it was very nice of you to be around while I did it. Like she teaches herself new truth so easily that I feel like a glamour from someone else wouldn't have much an effect. Padita. Padita didn't have the reaction. That's who I'm thinking of. Yes. Oh, in Carpe Juculam, she doesn't react to the vampires when Agnes gets glamored. There we are. There we are. We got there.

Oh, and thinking about Pratchett books and how they echo and the vampires is like a proto version of the elves. Yeah, this idea clearly settled in Pratchett's brain. There's the terrifying power for a villain. Yeah, this is a horrific power for a villain. But then he's given a very similar power to his least villainous character in all of the books, Carrot. But Carrot's glamour is so out on other people, making them think that they're better than they are, rather than worse than they are. Yeah, it's like a reverse. It's not reverse glamour because that would imply depravity somehow. But it's a... It's an upside down glamour. Yeah, upside down glamour. Mrs. Ewig

also, while shouting at the elves like a headmistress and hitting them with umbrella, announces the lady is not for turning. So now I can only picture her as Margaret Thatcher, which actually, yeah, kind of works. I don't know, I don't know, Margaret Thatcher was leaned pretty heavily into the no frippery. Oh that's a good point. And Mrs Earwig is nothing but frip. I'm thinking hairstyle though, that very specific like helmet-y hairstyle. I feel like that I'd like to obviously make it clear that I like Mrs Earwig a lot more than I like Margaret Thatcher. There are very few characters who we'd like less. And yeah, obviously we have sort of cameos from almost all of the witches we've ever had. So we're long, tall, short, but Sally. Just had to have another mention, I think, practice delighted by the concept. We've never really heard much from her except for her turning

up for these things and being a music. And suffering from tides. Petulia boring the elves, I thought was a great moment during the battle. Wonderful, wasn't she? Oh, didn't she do well? Yes. Her soft voice and strong will, her words, not irresistible, boring the elf as she bored her beloved pigs, lulling it until it dropped dramatically at her feet. Delighted all around. And look at a gathering of witches that, well, it did turn to violence, but not against each other.

Not against each other. Should we, because we're talking about cameos, add in that we did get to see a Hodja. Oh yeah, Hodja. Hodja also gets a mention. And Lady Elizabeth, the descendant of the famous Lady Jane who ate so many of our lovely Hodja's fingers. I'm very pleased that he's got a descendant. He's kept the line going. I'm happy he's still alive because it was sort of doubtful. Yeah. And it does of course imply that there was another bird who briefly did not get eaten by Lady Jane.

Yeah, which is quite impressive. Now that's a love story, Werthera telling. Yeah, definitely. I think that's a love story that's under some ice in the unseen university library. I think that's a love story that's under some ice in the Unseen University Library. I think that's probably for the best. Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. What did you like, Francine? One thing I liked was the way that Pratchett describes glamour as this kind of physical presence or object a lot of times during this book. In a way, I don't think he's done, or

not quite so often before. Yeah, I think it's been more creeping fog sort of vibes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, as this one's definitely, I don't know, I'm thinking of it as kind of like a treacle or a toffee or something because we see it in several states here. So there was a sparkle about her and it was like a syrup that covered everything. Yeah. Trickle syrup. Golden syrup kind of thing. But then, oh, this is Petula again. A different

kind of battle was going on as the elf threw its glamour towards her, sparkling shards of glamour shining in the air between them. I'm thinking it solidifies like, you know, like treacle. Yeah. Or like treacle on this. Well, I don't know if it does. Yeah. And then there are lots of actually lots of descriptions of glamour in this book that are beautiful. But to say it was going to reach one of them, I thought I'd end with we will put a girdle of glamour around their world. Beautiful.

We like our metaphorical girdles. Well that leads neatly into my Shakespeare references. Does it indeed? Oh no, was that one? Yes. Oh shit, sorry. No, don't be sorry. I'm so bad at Shakespeare I accidentally pick out the references. No, it's good, it just takes us neatly from one point to the other but we've pointed that

out now which ruins it. That's fine, I think there's a lot, I'm hoping there's a lot of people like me who needed that pointed out. I think it's a reference to there's a line in Midsummer's Dream, I put a girdle around the earth in 30 minutes and it's just Puck saying, oh, back in a sec. A girdle of glam around the world, I think is meant to be a reference to that. Again, it takes what's quite an innocent I think is meant to be a reference to that. Again, it takes what's quite an innocent line and makes it a lot more onerous. Apparently, when I talk about Shakespeare, I also have to do a spoonerism somewhere. I think Shakespeare would appreciate it.

I think man liked a spoonerism every now and then, so I've heard. Bakeshift. Bakeshift. That's what they call them. Yes, that's what they call them. Yes, so we'll put a girdle of glamour around the world, more ominous. Yeah. A nice take on the line. And then the other little references we get, I quite like, they're not Midsummer Night's Dream references. They are battle cries. Because if you need a battle cry, like you do go to Shakespeare, don't you? Oh, every time.

Yeah, that's what I do. It's really awkward when like a battle is about to start and I have to grab out the complete works. Guys, give me a minute. Give me a minute. You think we're bad on the podcast with getting out books and kind of trying to find the right page. Imagine cold day, your fingers are numb, you've got gauntlets. Which makes flicking through a book. I should get the ebook really. You say that but have you ever run out of battery on your Kindle in the middle of a siege? Yeah, no, that's the worst.

You know, you might have a charger. Can you find a fucking socket? No, you cannot. Not during a siege. Not during a siege. So yeah, we have cry crivens and let loose the clan McFiegel, which is cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war from Julius Caesar. And later on, the old men celebrating after the battle and Captain Makefeath, who I didn't mention when we were talking about

the old man earlier, but who I like is another just small side character with a lot of detail to him. You've got monstrous regiment vibes. Very monstrous regiment vibes. Or the night watch. Yeah, a bit of both. A bit of both. But on the nicer side, like I feel like he's... Oh yeah. Yeah, no, he's one of the old chaps on top of the barricade, I think. Yes. We Happy Few, we Extremely Elderly Few, which is We Few, We Happy Few, We Band of

Brothers is from the St. Crispin's Day speech in Henry V. You've read that? No, I've read the other speech that I mixed up with the St. Crispin's Day speech. St. Crispin's Day speech is the one that doesn't start once more onto the breach, dear friends, once more. And that's the speech I have read on the podcast. We few, we happy few, once more onto the breach, back in a bit, girdling the world. Exactly. So yeah, there's some Shakespeare stuff. What else do you like? I'm sure it was. Don't check that. stuff. What else do you like? Me submitting any poem anywhere. Yeah, sorry. What else did you like,

Francine? No, I don't know. Mollusks. Yeah, no, I'm fine. The world, Joanna, is the mollusk of our choice. And today, the mollusk of our choice, I think, is some kind of ekinoid. We've got an ekinoid. We've got an ekinoid. No, I actually tell you exactly what type of ekinoid. Sensibility bustle. It's a micraster. Micraster? Micraster. I'm going to say it like that. And I'm going to say it weird. All right. But confidently. Say it confidently. Micraster. And then- Micraster is a superester.

Sorry. I'm sorry. Right, go ahead. Go ahead. An explosion of blue spines that did notice Tiffany. Echonoid whispered sensibility bustle. That is correct. That the creature, which by the way, can we take a pause? You ever seen a sea urchin mouth? This is horrendous. This is cosmic horror. Yep. Now I'm the shepherd's crown. Deep in my heart is the flint. Now I have many uses. Some call me the sea urchin, others the thunderstone. But here now in this place call me the shepherd's crown. Which cool, good. Yes, love that. When looking up the shepherd's crown, the best place to look in certainly in Oxford dictionary

and the Oxford dictionary of superstitions is under fairy lobes. Oh. Fairy lobes, which is the name for fossil sea urchins because their plump dome shape with five lines at the apex resembles a small round loaf or a cottage loaf. They are found of course in the chalky down land. They were said to be lucky and whoever finds one should spit on it and toss it over his left shoulder. In Suffolk, where we live, yeah, where they were usually polished with black lead, it was said people who kept one in the house would never lack bread. In fact, here from the Oxford dictionary of superstitions going, oh, this is the 50s in Suffolk. One old man said, as he

fingered the fairy loaf on his mantelpiece, they say that while you have one of these in the house, you'll never want for bread, neither have I. Sometimes they were polished with black lead and placed on the hob, that would make sense. Little offering for the stove god. And they were sometimes used as thunder stones.

And I can't remember if we talked about thunder stones, that was mentioned in the quote there, have we? It feels familiar, but I don't think we've gone into any detail. We might have done. While we're here. While we're here. While we're here. A thunder stone is, as Wikipedia put it, might be a prehistoric hand axe, a stone tool or a fossil.

And these are used as an amulet. And they are used as apotropaic magic, which is a type of magic intended to turn away harm or evil influences. And I can't believe we've not come across that word before. So perhaps we have apotropaic. Merle Apotropaic. Love that. Sarah I'm torturing myself with the words today, aren't I? Merle Yeah, you made some choices. Sarah Yeah, but the belief is that the stones are

formed during lightning strikes. Merle Oh, wow. Sarah And these types of stones or references to these stones are found all the way from like ancient Greece to modernish Albania. And amazing. They're more iconic duo. But I'll link to a couple of things about them. And they're very cool. And obviously, it was going to be rooted in real folklore and superstition because it's Pratchett. Yeah. But fairy loaves slash slash shepherd's crowns. Oh, imagine his delight. I wonder how long he's known about them. Imagine his delight where he found that fairy stones

were known as shepherd's crown and planning where he was going to put it. And then putting it here. It's a fairy loave, Joanna. What are we today? We're talking about fairies. We're talking about fairies. We're talking about elves. Wasted by their own loaf. Quickly while we're on folklore actually, I did a bit of research but I couldn't find much and I didn't have time to go into detail. There's a line about the elves flying on yarrow stalks.

Yes, yarrow stalks, we've talked about yarrow stalks. We've talked about yarrow because there's a lot of interesting folklore about yarrow and things about planting it in graveyards and blah, blah, blah. But I was sure I'd read something about witches flying on yarrow stalks or possibly like elves and otherworldly beings flying on yarrow stalks. But I couldn't find anything on using them as like a broomstick in my Oxford dictionary of folklore. And all the research I did, and admittedly this was briefly researching online and also researching stuff online these days is horrific, was things referencing well obviously everyone knows that folklore states that elves flew on yarrow

stalks and I couldn't find where that belief comes from, like specific folkloric origins. So if any listeners know anything about the folklore of yarrow stalks being used as broomsticks, do give us a shout. It can be used for nosebleed divination, I'll tell you that. Yeah. I think there's some overlap between dictionary of superstitions and dictionary of folklore. I think that's probably quite likely given the shared... That Jacqueline Simpson worked on both?

Yeah. Yeah. Or certainly was an influence in both, yeah. She directly contributed to the folklore dictionary. I don't know if, was she a contributor on the Superstition One or? Yeah, I feel like she was, but maybe I'm thinking of the Adjectionary of Folklore. I'll tell you what, this isn't the time for work of that, is it? No, quite possibly not. I've got it on my shelf, so I stopped checking it every five minutes.

This is the history of espionage Wikipedia page all over again, Francine. No, quite possibly not. I've got my shelf, so I stop checking it every five minutes. This is the history of espionage Wikipedia page all over again, Francine. Oh, it is, but it's a bit more relevant this time, at least. It's slightly more relevant than the history of espionage Wikipedia page. If you'd let me read the whole thing, I could have found out if spies have ever used Yari sticks as transport. Now or never. I think they might have done, actually. Yeah, let's assume they did. Don't check that. And I think it was an iron bit pentameter. Yeah, probably. Don't check that. One last sort of little bit, although I suppose it's quite big,

the full moon. Oh, the full moon. The full moon. Tell us about the full moon because this is a departure. This is a departure. The elves decide to ride out, when this still bent moon swells to her full glory, we will go together in force. What a line. Is that Shakespeare?

I don't know. I couldn't find a Shakespeare, but I don't know if it's a... It's not one I know if it is Shakespeare. Listen, it's answers written on the moon so that we may see it with the naked eye. If you could arrange a clear night for us, that would be lovely. It's a rarity in England in winter. Obviously make it so it degrades quite quickly because we don't want to do astronomical vandalism. Well, Drew Shall Make You Fret's legal position is that we do not advocate astronomical vandalism.

Thumbs down. It's fine though. You can do it. it's fine. Anyway, the full moon, yeah, using this as the event time. It's a departure from the previous witch books where the half moon is sort of the powerful thing and the interesting thing. But this is because this is the elves, they are going for the shiny obvious power rather than the half light. This is where the real power lives of the witches. So I think it's a very, it's not random. It is a choice to do it this way. And it's not just full moons are cool and stuff happens at full moons. This is what elves would do. Elves would go full moon even though witches are people that live in the light of the half moon. Nightshade knows,

and she calls the full moon a time of endings. Yes, I suppose it is, because if the new moon is the new moon. Yeah, then the full moon is the end of the cycle. Yeah. Or it's a halfway point, depends how you want to think about it. Oh, now I'm getting confused. There is still then a whole cycle of it waning to get to the new moon before it waxes again. I hope I've got waxing and waning the right way around this time because I do mix them

up every now and then. Waning is getting smaller. It's getting smaller. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a full moon and then it wanes into the new moon and then it waxes into the full moon. But I think symbolically, it's definitely an ending.

Oh, yeah, it's an ending. A time of endings and I think something about using this... I've relatively brought this book out. I'm sorry. Just compulsively picking up your superstition dictionary. Put it down, Francine. Fine, I'm sure that doesn't mean anything. Don't get superstitious about it without looking it up in the book first. Don't get superstitious about it without looking it up in the book first. No. I like that as a thematic choice. I like that as a choice the elves make and this is who the elves are. I like talking about it as a time of endings. What is a full moon but the ultimate bauble?

Also that. But getting into this as, I know Pratchett wasn't writing this as the final book, but it being the final book and the full moon, the time of endings and this huge time of transition and change, because this is the end of something, a good thing. You know, elves, absenting, as it were, not quite parasiting on this universe anymore. The barriers still need to be there, but there is a sense of not just a battle won, but a war in this. And the elves coming out at the time of their own ending and choosing that and it being a time of endings. I think there's something very powerful and interesting in that.

I think having a full moon, well, obviously you've got the full moon with the werewolf and everything as well, I think. But I think having a full moon is, because the elves specifically say the full moon is on our side. Yeah. And I think you can see it because there are so many, and I'm not sure how much of this is like high fantasy stuff and how much of it is folklore, but of the moon revealing things that aren't really there or the moon, you know, moonlight does this, that or the other and makes everything a bit more supernatural, doesn't it? Yeah. I think that's... So it's arguably the full moon thins the barriers in its own way.

It's interesting to think that a moonless night is perhaps the safest you can be from elves. Yeah. Good to know. Good to know. Good thing. Yeah. While abroad, I should be paying attention to moonless nights in case of elves.

While abroad used here as the, well, out and about. Yes. Rather than visiting foreign parts with our bright red boots. Well, I'll probably keep an eye on the moon there too. And our willow reinforced hat. Well, always make sure you've got a willow reinforced hat. Let's go on to the bigger stuff then. Do you want to start us off? Oh, really? Right. Hang on. Yes, I will.

Well, we've got a full moon. We've got a time of endings. I feel like this is the time. It is. All right. So we look here at legacy. Yeah, and specifically legacy versus the cycle of decay. And so it's a very specific way of looking at legacy in this book, I think. But it sparked from this quote, my thought process here, I mean, she paused as a new thought struck her. Yet you have your queens of wisdom, and thus there was Granny Aking and Granny Weatherwax and yes indeed Tiffany Aking. You grow older, wisdom flourishes

and is passed on. And you never prosper, you live in a cycle of decay, Tiffany said softly. That's it talking tonight, she's there obviously. Now we talked about Legacy before, obviously, at length and in several episodes, but I'm going to particularly look at the last hero in contrast because this is all the last hero in contrast, because this is all the way back in episode 96, by the way, I just scroll back a lot further than I thought I would. Because then legacy was highlighted more in this kind of shining heirloom sort of a way. Yeah. In this tangible thing to pass on. Whereas this type of legacy that we're looking at is much bigger and yet

less tangible than an epic poem. And in fact, you know, looking at epic poems, in fact, the two ways here that we're looking at that Tiffany's learning and growing and the Elven cycle of decay, as I'm now going to call it all the time, because what a lovely place, are united by stories. Because at one point, the king of the elves says, and I can wait, the stories will survive when this railway you speak of is long gone. Yes. But here, of course, is where the stories fail us, us as humanity, because we forget the elves, we remember the stories, but we forget why we tell them.

Yeah. And it's interesting to find a point where the stories bail us in a Pratchett book, because stories are everything. They are. So legacy for the sake of legacy versus legacy for purpose, is what we're looking at here. And so we talked about ex-telligence in the science of discworldable places, and I think we've revisited it before. And I think that would be what we're talking about in this story. Elves as a villain serve as a lesson in what happens when you forget, when you let this ex-talentance lapse, because the short memory of humans when it comes to elves is the reason we

have a recurring villain at all. And we have a recurring villain that has recurred through the centuries, as we've had some implication of. And, you know, of course, what happens if you fall into this cycle of decay as a recurring theme through Discworld? We've had it in Nightwatch. Why are they called revolutions? FLEURY Because they come around again. NICOLA Exactly. In Sorcery, even. All the way back in Sorcery, we have the short memory of wizards when it comes to, wait, why aren't we allowed to play with this incredible reservoir of sorcery magic again? Oh, that's right. Everything's on fire and gone. I was visiting my aunt in

Quern. But yeah, so when we're talking about forgetting the elves, we have Queen Magra and it's lovely, lovely reminiscing we get from Queen Magra considering the trauma I think she went through just before she was Queen Magra. Yeah. Elves, she thought, they'd seen them off last time, but it hadn't been easy. And it had been a long time since she had posted guards. Well, sure and odd anyway. Sure and odd, by the way, lovely little cameo we get a couple of times. Yeah. Up by the circle of stones known as the dancers or made sure the castle had plenty of horseshoes to hand. She knew how the memory plays tricks and the old stories have power. And everyone forgot how terrific really means brings terror. Her people would only remember that the elves sang beautifully. They would have forgotten what their song was about and can you imagine

they've forgotten. And it's not been that long. What a startling realization that Magrat who's only just lost Granny Weatherwax and so it's not like we've lost the sensible influences years ago here. The witches, Lanker, have already forgotten this lesson. And so much of that is to do with the power of the glamour as well as that people, the glamour doesn't quite leave when the arms do. Yeah, yeah. And so it's just this, what an incredible thing to realise that although the

witches, I think, are among the best at learning from these legacies, even they have forgotten this. And I think revisiting what you said earlier about Black Alice, actually, I thought that was a very nice example of this kind of, you know, exelegance, the legacy of learning. That whole quote with the point of the spinning wheels and small ovens. Yeah, the spinning wheels, the ovens, the terrible wolf and so forth. Yes. Yes. That poor wolf. Oh my god. Yeah, we learn from each and I think we've talked a lot about Tiffany being almost a version of Granny with some extra wisdom as a youngster. Yes, because she had the Granny Aking influence.

as a youngster. Yes, because she had the Granny A. King influence. Yeah. We can't see Tiffany running just too far ahead of her Ridcully of Preston and losing him forever. I think she'll know exactly when to just slow down enough. Yeah, and she'd learned from Granny and from Ridcully and from Nanny Og and from all of these witches. And it's a lovely thought.

I just want to go very briefly back to The Last Hero because one of the legacy highlights, something you talked about a lot in episode 96, was Kohen et al considering a good ending. Which I think leads reasonably neatly into what you wanted to talk about. This is the final Discworld novel, which is the thing I feel completely normal about. The thing is, with this book, this is the final Discworld novel, but it wasn't written to be as I mentioned. Pratchett just kept writing until he couldn't write anymore. He didn't write a finale.

No, and yet. And yet. And like all of the books, this works as a standalone. You don't need to know that this is the last Discworld book to read it. Obviously, it does read a lot better with a lot more Tiffany context, especially like Wee Free Men, but obviously all of Tiffany. And Granny Weatherwax context. And Granny Weatherwax context, but I think even if you just read the Tiffany books, I think there's enough granny context within them. Yeah. Yeah, to feel her grief. I think the rest of

the granny context gives us our grief. Yeah. Emma Yeah. The 41 Discworld books. I know she wasn't in all of them, but I mean, in a way. Emma She may as well have been. Emma She might as well. She was there, wasn't she? Emma We knew she was around. Yeah. Emma But although this book does kind of stand alone, it is the final book and it has this incredible tapestry of all these things that came before.

The book does have a really beautiful sense of closure. And if we have to leave the disc, and I feel like a lot of us sort of feel like the disc didn't stop, we just don't have a window into it anymore. And if this is how we have to say goodbye to it, knowing that these stories could be going on without us, I think this is a really beautiful place to say goodbye to it. And so I was thinking about a lot of these things that give it that sense of closure, that give it that wonderful feeling. We have obviously the callbacks and stuff. We already mentioned Hodgessar and Magrat putting on the armor again. There's lots of Lords and Lady stuff specifically because we have the

elves and everything. Especially bringing up the bees one more time as well. In Nightshade says the queen has all the power until she gets older and then a new queen kills her to take the hive. It's the slash stab. Slash stab. From Mr. Brooks, the beekeeper. Mr. Brooks, the beekeeper. I wonder how he's doing. I think he's doing well. Yeah, yeah. I can only imagine beekeepers for a very long time. Yeah, and I think he's probably like picked up an apprentice at some point, some village lad, passing on the beekeeping, letting the bees get to know him. Hopefully, well, he does have a shed, doesn't he? He's got a shed, he makes his wasp, frogs and such.

Yeah, he's got his own shed. Maybe he'll join the shed club. Yes, maybe. Of course, we have the belief stuff coming back around again, obviously. I talked about it last week, but this ties into this bigger theme of this book. The elves are losing power because the elves find themselves losing power. Yes, the barriers get thinner. The risks of them have been forgotten. They can get through, but they are part of the reason they're doing this is they're fighting for relevance in a world that is moving on from them, largely because of modernization. No one has time to believe

in fairy tales anymore when instead they can believe in the Goblins standing in front of them doing the work. And Tiffany says this to Nightshade, you don't have anything to offer us, you're just folklore. Tiffy Terrible thing to say to a being. CK Horrible thing. Actually, I would love it if someone said that to me. If I just became, I would love to just folklore. Terrible thing to say to a being. Horrible thing. You're just, actually, I would love it if someone said that to me. If I just became, I would love to become folklore. That's true. But it doesn't prey on our secret insecurity, I suppose. No, no. And I think I'm making excellent cryptid.

I've always said so. And the line you brought up thinking about this legacy idea, you have no future here now other than in stories. But then the king uses that as like a reassurance, doesn't he? But still here in the stories. But then the king uses that as like a reassurance, doesn't he? They're still there in the stories. He believes that the stories will see them through. Tiffany believes that the belief will fade. When Nightshade starts becoming regal again as well, it's not because someone else has started believing in her power, it's because she's believed in it. Because she's seen the better way. She's decided to believe that elves can be better and so she stands up and delivers that.

And is then cut down by a saber. And then is then cut down by a saber. This is Discworld. It's a really good way that Pratchett writes. This is, again, there's this sense of closure here, but it is not all positive and that is not, and now the elves are redeemed. It is one elf could be redeemed in this specific situation, but it is not all positive and that is not, and now the elves are redeemed. It is one elf could be redeemed in this specific situation, but it is better to get rid of them. It is not as neat and tidy as other endings could be. And I think that's a good

thing. I think that's what these books need because they are so, there's something so alive about these books, which is why it's very easy to believe that the disc keeps spinning even if we can't see onto it anymore. The idea of living under a cairn, or not living under a cairn rather, that being a memorial. Being remembered. Being remembered. I've got to say though, it does remind me a little bit of Rincewind and his memorial turning from a statue to a plaque to a note in the register. That's very true. One does have to wonder how long before the Ken becomes a pile of stones that is kicked

over by a goat. That is true. I don't know, I feel like Ken's kind of very quickly developed their own mythology, don't they? Well, that's true. I have a feeling that might be how one or two small gods appeared. Yes, that's very true. Not to spoil us for any fun. That's become our latest bit. Right, so the eagle. The eagle of change.

Don't talk to me about cairns and eagles. Let's not discuss cairns and eagles. It's not that sort of podcast I'll have you know. Anyway, penises. No. Sorry, I just wanted to lighten the tone. Yeah, no, that's fine. I might cut this bit out entirely. Can I talk briefly about the change in writing style? Yeah, absolutely. So that I think it's fairly obvious to me that the character voices become a little less distinct here. Yeah.

But while I was reading this, it didn't bother me particularly because I started thinking of it as the characters mainly kind of speaking in Pratchett's voice with less filter than usual. Yeah. They all reminded me a little more of Weatherwax and Vimes in their manner of speaking. And Tiffany stayed very Tiffany. Yeah, I think Tiffany has always been so incredibly sharp and distinct and Weatherwax and Vimes have always been those two characters that I think Pratchett like, certainly most identified with.

This is what I'm thinking. And I, yeah, I found it weirdly comforting to read it like that reading Magratt as this, I don't know, you can see it is either a more evolved and older and wiser version of Magratt, or you can see it as less filtered coming straight from Pratchett. But it is odd to read what is basically a less edited Discworld book in lots of ways. We knew that from the first time we read it because of the afterword. Yeah, neither of us skipped to the afterword but I think as soon as you read it you do sort of understand. Rob is very frank about it in the afterword and I think in a very good way. Normally it would

have gone through X, Y and Z processes that it didn't. I find it really interesting reading effectively a less edited one because I'm so fascinated by writing process. So this feels like a really unique insight into that. It is mentioned and it's not in the afterword and I thought it was in the afterword so I'm thinking now it's perhaps in a life with footnotes. Yeah. That perhaps it wanted to write a scene where death came for Granny Weatherwax once again because Granny was in the cat. Yeah. As is strongly hinted throughout. Yes, but never quite stated. I never really, the thing is, I never quite read it as granny was in the cat. I read it as granny was spread all over, spread everywhere. A bit was in the cat and a bit

was in the trees and a bit was in the fox and the badger. But I don't know if that's just that's how I liked to imagine it. And the intention was much more granny was in the cat. liked to imagine it and the intention was much more Granny was in the cat. It was perhaps she was but then concentrated in the cat for the last moment. Yeah. But either way I think it would have been a nice scene to have but at the same time I think her scene with death thing or let your candle flame flicker a little longer or whatever it was. I think that's such a perfect scene I don't feel that and also I feel like it would feel

too, there'd be too much closure, I think having the second scene with death and granny. Yeah. I don't. I'm sure it would feel different. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like I would not. What we can imagine is never going to be what he could have imagined.

So yeah. Exactly. If that scene was in this book, I would probably not be sitting here saying, well, I wish that scene wasn't there. Yeah. God, more granny weather wax and death. Don't want that. No, I think you make a very good point. It is a different writing style. And I don't think that's a bad thing about the book. I don't think that's a criticism of the book.

No, that's it. And I hesitated whether to bring it up because we have said, oh, we don't want to talk about this or the other during it. But yeah, I think we have such a frank explanation of where Terry Pratchett was in the afterwards. And Rob writes about it really beautifully in A Life with Footnotes in a way where I can't pick it up and read it again, because I will just fucking sob. Yeah, no, I said in my, was it for the last last book, wasn't it? I was trying to look something up and ended up reading that whole bit again. I'll tell you what, that's not one for... Not one if you want to do anything else that day.

It might actually... Sorry, thinking about the second scene, Granny being there and you, I think it might have been something Rhianna and Gabrielle talked about when we talked about Tiffany Aitken's guide to being a witch actually. Could have been. It might be. I'm sure they talked about you quitekin's guide to being a witch actually. It might be. I'm sure they talked about you quite a bit. And that was a really nice bit of the chat with them. You the cat not you. Yeah, no, I got that. Yeah.

Yeah, just me and Rihanna sat. Actually, when we were talking, they talked about you a lot. As Rihanna Pratchett is a huge fan of mine. No, absolutely not. So now we finished talking about this world and we're now talking about scenes that were never written. No, no, hang on. I'm sorry. That was me. I took us on a tangent into reality. Please carry on. Change. Change is a running thing through this book. And thinking about that in relation to this sense of closure. Arguably, as I said,

the Discworld isn't ending. We just don't have a window into it anymore. But where we are landing, it's just so not on a static note. This book is all about the changes that have recently come and the change that is yet to come. I think that's really exciting to have as a theme in this book. We have the iron wheels turning for the elf as Tiffany thinks about Nightshade's redemption arc. We have this great moment where Tiffany is starting to think that things could be better, that Nightshade could be better. There was hope in her voice now, a hope that human and elf might be able to change the stories of human and elves. A princess doesn't have to be blonde and blue-eyed and have a shoe size smaller than her age, she thought. People can trust witches and not fear the

old woman in the woods, which is such a beautiful full circle moment with Wee Free Men and the storybook and Tiffany deciding to be a witch because she doesn't look like one of the princesses. And I don't think this is Tiffany suddenly having princess related ambitions because there's a distinct lack of royal families around here for a start. She's also learned exactly what being a noble woman entails and she's not really having any part of that. No, she makes an excellent witch. Not wetting up all the colours is our tip. Nice oil pastel maybe. Yeah, yeah. I could see her doing something with charcoal actually. Oh, she does have the lovely coloured paint scene in Hatful of Skye, where Rowland sends

her the paints. It's either Hatful of Skye or Wintersmith. Anyway, and then you have thunder and lightning and a train during the melee's. How could the Elms be so stupid as to protect in the midst of the storm? Do they not remember she'd used thunder and lightning to defeat them before? And you have these sounds of thunder and lightning and then you have the distant scream from a train at two shirts, a roar of iron and steel, a bellow that shouted, this is no world for elves.

I didn't learn. I didn't learn. It didn't happen that long ago. They didn't learn. There's a legacy they didn't get. Exactly. Do you think they lost it with the Queen? Quite possibly, yeah. The Queen remembered thunder and lightning. The Queen remembered them. Because he called them down upon feast awesome, which worked by the way, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah, but it was the Queen who had them called down on her. The other elves, I don't think, felt the effect of thunder and lightning in quite the same way. So maybe they just hadn't learned to fear it. So they lost their Queen and they lost their knowledge. They hold a sense of fear and respect. Yeah. Yeah. They don't learned to fear it. So they lost their queen and they lost their knowledge. A healthy sense of fear and respect. Yeah. Yeah, they don't listen to each other. And you have Jeffrey as another form of change.

This character who is maybe not being given the title of witch yet, but certainly more than a backhouse boy, taking on a cottage and a steading. It's hard to see him as a witch, not because I don't think he'd be capable of witchery, but because he doesn't really fit into an argument of witches, does he? Yeah, I feel like he's going to have to learn to argue a little bit more though. I mean, he's a calm weaver. Perhaps he can see it like the dedicated liar of the Zoons. Yes.

He'll have to kind of script it and see it as a little play. Yeah, or he is just the one peaceful witch. Yes. Hold on, hold on. Let's bring out our non-arguer just to get this ordered. Can you take the phone? You have three peeps. And then you have, right, as the elves are defeated, this little closure montage. The hex spits out a calculation, the monk's bow and oi dong, Esk's son says, mommy, all the big nasties are gone and he might become an engineer. And this is the moment where Tiffany fully steps into her power. And what I love is that these moments all echo the death of Granny Weatherwax and the ripples through the world. And then Tiffany

steps into her power and it is just as impactful that the ripples spread just as far. And I don't know, I think it's fantastic. And like I said, if Disco World had to end, if we don't have the window into it anymore, I'm really glad it ended like this, where it's moving and it's transitional and it's full of change. Like the moon. CHARLEYY Like the moon. NICOLA Like the moon. And I could go on a lot further about ripples in the world and all of that stuff. And I'm just not going to because I'm trying really hard not to actively sob on the podcast. I'm imagining her stepping into her power as stepping into some kind of pool reflecting the moon though, aren't you? Yeah.

You know the vision that comes up? Something like that. Francine, do you have an obscure reference for Neil for me? I do, it doesn't really seem appropriate. When has it ever been appropriate? That's not going to stop us. Yeah, all right. Francine, do you have an obscure reference for needle forming? I do, it doesn't really seem appropriate. When has it ever been appropriate? That's not going to stop us. Yeah, all right. So, have a look at Queen Incy or Queen Mangrave wearing the garb. I didn't really know what a baldric was to start. A baldric?

It's got a thingy shaped like a turnip. Yeah, exactly. Well, it could, I suppose. It's a belt worn over one shoulder that's typically used to carry a weapon, usually a sword, or another implement such as bugle or drum or turnip. And that is the definition. I didn't add anything to it. Don't worry about it. Don't check that. Interestingly, I thought in heraldry, an escutcheon, an escutcheon as I mentioned.

I have never heard the word said out loud. So I'm going to take your word for that. Anyway, it's a shield that forms the main or focal element in an achievement of arms. Yes, that's right. We're back in heraldry town. Very sorry about that. I'm not. It can be used interestingly enough in two related senses. And so first of all, it's the shield, this is the main sense, the shield upon which the coat of arms is displayed. But in the second sense, it can itself be a charge within a coat of arms and a charge of course is the emblem or the device occupying that bit. And so in heraldry, an inescuction is a smaller

escutcheon that's superimposed over the main shield of a coat of arms it's a shield on a shield Joanna a shield within a shield within a shield a shield within a shield do you have your signal open? I'll just show you what I mean quickly sorry yeah my apologies now a shield and a shield or three shields and a shield in this case ah three shields and a shield three inescutcheons it's an escape all it in a scutcheon. Try saying that three times after 11. Yeah, so that's my oh my god, look at this. And this guy, I'm going to send you this. This is the busiest fucker I've ever seen. This makes great audio. Well done, Francine. You have to edit this.

I know. It's fantastic, isn't it? Well, we're doing it a bit earlier than usual, so I've got lots of time to edit this. Oh, it's fantastic, isn't it? Well, we're doing it a bit earlier than usual. So I've got lots of time to procrastinate. Francine get off the Wikipedia page for the history of espionage. Oh, good Lord. It gets so, the history of espionage has so much heraldry. This shield just has everything going on. We've got a rampant lion with some fleur de lis, bisected with a looks like a Greek column column overlaid over some bits of Welsh dragon, possibly a crossword, some shells. I was thinking like a pie lattice. That does look like a pie lattice, but the black and white is making me think crossword. And are

those eagles? Actually, yeah, we're not going to link to a picture of this listeners. I want you to imagine it purely off that perfect description, then draw your own version and send it to us. Much like medieval monks did with elephants. Yes. But this is an escutcheon of pretence as born by the French family, Champagne La Suisse. Perfect. I wouldn't have it any other way for them. Absolutely. Amazing. Yeah, so that's that. Sorry. Amazing. Yes, that's that. Sorry.

Okay. Well, I think that's everything we're going to say about The Shepherds' Crown then. Except it's not really about The Shepherds' Crown. No, it's not really about The Shepherds' Crown, is it? It's not really about The Shepherds' Crown. Look, we've been doing this, as we've mentioned multiple times, including near the beginning of this podcast, for over five years now, a bit by about a month, but for over five years. This episode is an ending, although as we said multiple times, we're coming back for a festive episode. We're coming back next year. We are not going to just...

It's like a moon. This is a transitional ending. There's lots of change like a moon. This is a transitional ending. There's lots of change like a moon. Change like a moon. God, we've got really good at similes, I'll tell you that. That's what five years in a month has taught us, fucking similes. But this is still an ending. This is the end of a huge and ridiculous project. Yeah, fuck's sake, John. I didn't think she'd make me do it. And I did. I forced Francine kicking and screaming every episode. I edit those out.

Yeah, she does. 150 episodes. She's fine. She's also very good about editing the bits out of the video where she's holding up the police help on being taken hostage sign. I'm joking about this because I want to be heartfelt for a second and I fucking can't. I know, I find it so difficult. I'm so bad at being heartfelt. I want to say thank you to our dear little listeners on your dear little legs are mass of Gipel. Because we have done this with a herd of Gipel is somewhat of an oxymoron isn't it? A herd of Gipel overseen by our soft stretches.

Oh, what a cursed palm. EIEI, oh no. But seriously, no, we've done this for so long, it would have been pointless if no one was listening to us and not just listening to us, but talking to us, telling us, listening, asking questions, answering questions. We've had this really wonderful little community build up in places like the Discord and Twitter and everything. And it is an honor to have made that community to be a part of it and to have done this. And I haven't worn Francine, I just put in the plan slightly sloppy thank you to listeners, but also a massive thank you to Francine because I wasn't joking when I said I wouldn't have

got through these five years as well without this podcast and without having you to talk to every week. Yeah, I mean, it's been a hell of a thing, hasn't it? It really has. Yeah, thank you all so, speaking too much for obvious reasons. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, it's been wild. It's been amazing. I mean, we met people in person. We've had people come up to us.

We did a live episode. We did a live episode. We have people come up to us and say they like the podcast. I hate being on stage. I've done it twice, three times. Yeah, I mean, I can't really claim that one. I love being on stage. No, no, you love being on stage. Otherwise, that really would have been ridiculous. We do need one of us who's comfortable being in the public eye. would have been ridiculous. We do need one of us who's comfortable being in the public eye. Yeah, we've met people multiple times in person. We've got to have drinks with listeners. That's been amazing. Pretty cool.

Yeah. Our listeners have met each other and hopefully been nice and hung out and made friends. They've made cool drawings of things we talked about, nonsenses. I still have as my phone background, one of the first bits of fan art we ever got, which is the Willy Mamas going on holiday to the pyramids. Oh my god, yay! That's been my phone background ever since we were sent it. We have amazing listeners who've drawn us mantis shrimp and gingerbread Baba Yaga.

We have a condiment correspondent. We have a condiment correspondent. We have a condiment correspondent. I never thought we- How many podcasts have condiment correspondents? I think not. Not enough. I think we are, that makes us the coolest of all. I think we've won podcasting actually.

Yeah. No, seriously. I did not really think we'd actually manage it and that we'd build an audience. I wanted to. I thought we would prundle along with like, a small amount of listeners that made it you know, well, I was carrying on with it was this has been more successful than I thought it would be. And that's that. Wow, I sound like I'm damning us with paying praise here. This has been much more successful than I thought it would be.

This has been much more successful than I thought it would be. And not all that it wouldn't have been worth it if we only had 10 listeners, but it's felt really great having all of you guys out there. It has. And I mean, I think we talked about before we started this podcast, because we had these conversations every Monday anyway, when we went for coffee. So it was well worth recording it as it turned out. It was well worth recording it. Many problems with audio. Thank you all ever so much for putting up with those. Well done. Thank you. You only destroyed me.

Thank you for sticking with us through the dodgy pandemic recording, learning how to use Zoom. Me repeatedly opening diet codes right next to the microphone. Both of us repeatedly opening. Sometimes editing that out, sometimes not. Our complete inability to stick to a pocket, a topic. A pocket, a topic. Any of those things.

Joanna's violent spoonerisms. She suffers terribly from the spoonerisms. There's nothing to do with having a glass of wine during the second half of the episode, obviously. This is, the chrism's all over again. It's genuinely not. I'm spoonerism just as much so, but listen as I promise. This thank you and everything could risk going on for a long time. It's gone off the rails a bit here, isn't it? We have wildly. Well, it's appropriate for us, I think, Phil, going off the rails. Were we ever really on them?

No, but now we have a chance because the Discworld is circled in our... How do you girdle... Wait, hang on. How do you girdle the Discworld? Carefully. Hang about. Ask Nanny Og. Never mind, this has all been bullshit. Ask Nanny Og when you're old enough. All right, yeah. Anyway, yeah, thanks listeners, it's been great. But no, we are going to be back. As we already mentioned, we are going to do a live Hogs Watch celebration on the 21st of December. Glingle bells. Glingle bells all the way.

That is going to be live on YouTube at 8pm UK time on the 21st of December. But it will also be recorded so you can listen either audio or probably video as well. After the fact. Yes. I say probably video as well. Like it'd be right there. We won't take that away. So yeah, that'll definitely be a thing. And then we'll let you know then about our plans for the next year or so. Yeah, we are gonna be back. I mean, we've been really, you know, we've got

emotional here. We're not gonna stop podcasting. I won't let Franzine. We just reached the end of this ridiculous fucking challenge. I think it's worth getting a mate. Francine, we recorded 156. No, no, absolutely. I'm just trying to pull myself back from the edge here. 156 fucking episodes. Yeah. 41 Discworld books.

156 numbered episodes. Sorry, numbered episodes. How many fucking bonuses are we done? I don't know. I can't count. I've lost the ability. That's 41 Discworld books plus a ton of other books. So many other books. ton of other books.

So many other books. So many other books. TV things. And Francine, do listen, this is still not forgiving me for the animated soul music. No, you see exactly what I was thinking about there, didn't you? She holds me personally. 190 Joanna. 190 episodes. How many published episodes we have and that's not counting all the patrons.

I'm really proud of us. Yeah. Well done us actually. Yeah. Well done us. Yeah. That's probably the most committed. I've been to anything apart from my marriage. I thought I better caveat that. This podcast lasted longer than my marriage anyway. Yes, I win. As in I win over your ex marriage, not I win personally.

Anyway, yeah, I think that's all we're going to say. So until we come back for that Hogs Watch episode, obviously you can join our Discord. There's a link down below. You can follow us on Instagram at The True Share Make You fret on Twitter and blue sky at make you fret pod. On Facebook at the true shell make you fret, join our subreddit art slash TTSNYF. Send us your thoughts, queries, castles, snacks and tear soaked shepherds hearts to the true shell make you fret pod at gmail.com. And if you want to support us financially for now, you can still go to patreon.com forge slash the true shell make you fret and exchange your hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And don't forget if you are one of our dear little patrons to make sure your

address is up to date for no reason whatsoever. And until next time dear listeners, the magic was already here. Hello again, dear listeners. I'm using my rarely abused editing powers to add to this episode with a letter from very good friend of the pod, Mark Burroughs. This arrived in our inbox just too late to read out in the main episode, which is our fault, not his, as we broke the habit of half a decade and recorded a good few days in advance. Still, adding an ending to the ending feels quite apt, doesn't it? Alright, here we go. Dear the truth shall make ye fret. I can't believe you've made it. The day has finally come. It's been four years since you graciously interviewed me on your brilliant podcast

and I swear he did write this, and I've been an avid listener ever since. Every week it feels like I get to listen in on good friends, which is handy because we are actually friends these days. At least I hope we are, otherwise I will feel a right mug. For the last year I've been galloping up and down the country performing my show, The Magic of Terry Pratchett, five stars, Starburst magazine, on tour across the UK and Australia in 2025. And I regularly meet listeners to the podcast who ask me weird questions about loincloths and helicopters. Every single one of them have mentioned that you've illuminated something about the books that they'd not considered before. It's true. And I find that every single time. I've tried to spread the word too. I think

I speak for many, many people who love Terry's work and I say thank you for speaking his name, keeping the ripple spreading and keeping him with us. And thanks for mentioning me so kindly once or twice. Thanks for taking us all on the journey. I can't wait to hear what you do next. Can you not just start from the beginning and do them all again? Mind how you go, you old buggers. Mark B. How often do you think you reread Pratchett books? Like without us being on the deadline like this?

I tend to treat them like palette cleansers. Like it's very rare I do like a full reread. Yeah. But say I've just finished reading a trilogy or I've just read a particularly heavy book and I want something that's easy reading and not new afterwards, then I'll read like a Pratchett book or a couple of Pratchett books. So I'll read, say, a few books from The God Series,

a few books from The Witches. Yeah. What about you? Do you know, I'm not sure I've ever done a full read through from beginning to end.