The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 16: The Long Utopia Pt 2 (Jiggle the Liminal)

Episode Date: July 5, 2026

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel have emerged from Discworld and are now exploring the worlds of speculative fiction. This week, The Long Utopia Part 2! Philosophy! Astronomy! Apocalyptic geology(?)!Find us on the internet:BlueSky: @makeyefretpod.bsky.socialInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on BlueSky @2hatsjo and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Tethys Ocean - Wikipedia Tethys - Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki  Thomas the Rhymer - WikipediaThomas the Rhymer (2009 Remaster)Poems (Wordsworth, 1815)/Volume 2/The small Celandine - Wikisource, the free online libraryRare 'bolide' fireball falls from the sky, spotted across Southeast US    Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I'm not shoving my arm into the bramble. Fine. Got stuck in a kitchen drawer earlier. What was, what? What? Okay, so you know my kitchen. I don't know how to phrase this question, but I think you know what I'm asking. I've got like those three really wide drawers and there's like a deep one at the bottom for pans and stuff.

Yeah, yeah. The second drawdown has all my trays, but I haven't organized it properly for a while. It's got a bit chaotic. And what basically happened was I had a big wooden chopping board in there that slid off and down the back and landed flat and then I couldn't close the bottom drawer and then I took everything out of the bottom drawer but I couldn't take the back off the drawer and so eventually I grabbed some very hefty barbecue tongs and I sort of managed to wedge my arm in a little bit but that didn't work and I nearly dropped the tongs I didn't drop the tongs but my arm was a little bit stuck so I got out again then I got a massive metal spatula and I managed to wiggle my arm in with the spatula and lever the board up just enough that I could wiggle my other arm in and pull it out Right, I've got one question before I decide how much I'm judging you. Yeah. Faring in mind, I'd have done everything the same.

Were you alone in the house? Yes. Okay. So after getting stuck the first time, you resume the same activity. Well, I managed to unstick myself the first time, so I figured I could probably unstick. Yeah, well, absolutely. That's how that works. My elbow is, like, wiggly enough I can get in and out of things when I need to.

Yeah, so I write a lot about near misses and how... And how we learn from them rather than assume that it going okay this time means that that's a safe way of working. It's not like I plan on doing this on a regular basis. As long as you were wearing your high vis. Had a hard hat on. Also, I was alone, but my partner was on his way home. So I wouldn't have had, if I had got like stuck. Yeah.

He could have come back and, I assume, remove my arm would have been the only option at that point. But then my arm would have been stuck down there as well. We never have got that draw closed. move. Take the drawer apart, I guess. Which I did try and take the drawer apart first before I started wedging my arm down the back. I'm tired of being methodical this week. Yeah, no, that's fair.

I respect it. What shall I do tomorrow to be? Oh, you need some whimsy. Like anti all of the really organised self I've had to be this week. Well, I mean, I feel like planning it is the antithesis of that. But I feel like you do need to get some whimsy. Yeah, I need ideas for whimsy. Oh, go to Long Melford and see.

if you can find that stained glass window of the bunnies. Yes, excellent idea. That's what I'll do. In fact, I've still got to read that whole book I bought on the trio of hairs slash rabbits thing. So maybe there's more than one in the immediate vicinity. And I can just have a really weird Saturday. I really recommend that. And I'm also now quite sad.

I can't offer to join me. Yeah, no, I'm not really sad. You're not coming with me. Maybe don't do all of them in one day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll send me pictures of the drag show. I'll send you pictures of. three little buddies in a stanglass window, which is nearly the same.

But no, that sounds like an affair and equivalent exchange. Good. Good idea, Joanna. Thank you. I knew you asking you for ideas on my spontaneous whimsy would be that. You know what they say about me? Spontaneously whimsical Joanna. I mean... I do write a lot of to-do lists. But you never follow them, so it's fine.

Oh, yeah, good point. Yeah, but that's less spontaneous whimsy and more procrastination and then feeling really guilty about it and spiraling down into a deep hole where I can't do anything because I hate myself. Catholic whimsy. Yes, Catholic whimsy. As they call it. And on that note, shall we make a podcast? On the note of Catholic whimsy we shall.

And also with you. Right. Hello and welcome to the true shall make you fresh, a podcast in which we were reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. Now we're strolling down the corridors of speculative fiction. I'm Joanna Hagan. I'm Francine Carroll And this is part two of our discussion of the long utopia It's utopic

Is that right? Sure Utopian, fuck Utopian It could be utic Utopic sounds like how you look like a cream But it does doesn't it? I immediately regret that

Let's carry on The section two goes from chapter 25 Through to the end Note on spoilers before we crack on We're a spoiler like podcast Heavy spoilers for the book The Long Utopia But we won't be spoiling

future events in the long earth cycle, because neither of us can remember what happens in the last book. And we probably won't spoil anything major in the Discworld books either, so you, dear listeners, can be on the journey with us. When we're at the journeys end, we will, of course, quarterize the ways out. Absolutely. Horrible word, quarterize. Isn't it? Fancy, what happened previously on the Long Utopia? Previously on the Long Utopia. In Yellowstone's wake, Lobsang and Agnes ambulates stepwise and join humanity for what they hope will be the long haul. They just happen to land on a world in which things go bump in the ever shorter night. However, meanwhile, Joshua has a small crisis and makes a familial request that sends us, the readers, back in time to Victorian London to meet the waltzing ancestors of our present-day protagonists.

And briefly, we meet a new next, a teenage stalk Jack whose ungovernable intelligence will surely lead him into no trouble in part two. Of course not. Should I talk about what happens in part two then? Yeah, you better it is. A lot more plot points than in plot one. I'll give you that. Yeah, I feel like this is the nature of all of the long earth books is that all of the plot, we've moved a bit, actually. The first book, all of the action and plot sort of happened in the last chapter. And then maybe the last two chapters with the next one. To now it's like the back half of the book is where all the plot is.

Yeah, yeah. It's still weird pacing, but we've got some plot now. There's plot happening almost immediately in part two. Almost immediately in part two. Stan and Rocky begin their soft place journey to the Grange, home of the next, but when they arrive, Stan doesn't like what he sees. Joshua arrives in New Springfield, and he and George is off to tour some of the earth. As they explore on their twain, they discover the earth girdled by beetle-built viaducts. We love a girdle.

Put a girdle around the earth in 30 minutes. As they mourn the death of Shimi, George reveals that the viaducts and moon rocks are spinning up the planet's spin. I did not reread this. Superve. I apologise, dear listeners. It's still quite hot. And he needs Joshua and Sally to hunt another lobsang down. Joshua finds Sally on a stakeout, tells her the story of his ancestor, Louis Valiente, of the Waltz's selective breeding program and finally about meeting his father, Freddie Burden.

The Navy arrived to research and evacuate New Springfield, and George steps in to talk science. On a visit to the planetarium, the horrible truth becomes clear. The tippler wavefront of xenforming beetles, as close. coming for the long earth. Hazzar. Joshua and Sally bring the original Lobsan home from the planet of the traversers and a group of rag-tag misfits to all the broken planet. Thank goodness. The only solution is to close this earth off to stepping and there's only one man for the job. Back in Miami, US 4, Stamberg sermonises until Sally and Roberta come to collect.

Cermanises is nearly bad as you topic. It is, but we're going with it. In the collapsing remains of New Springfield, a final round of goodbyzer said. Stan, the Lobzang, previously known as George Abrams and Sally, are the last ones left, and they courtiered the planet, keeping the rest of the long earth safe from the Beatles. Stan and Sally state till the last as the planet breaks apart, and all that's left at the end is Lobzang alone in his satellite. Because you don't often hear the Beatles said in any context other than the Beatles. For a split second there, you do imagine. a vastly more dangerous

A version of the 60s. Everyone's got the top of hair cells. Paul McCartney still got it in him. It's lucky he doesn't turn his power to evil. I am glad that Paul McCartney has not started xenforming. He can still do a headstand and from there it's a short step to... To xenforming. To xenforming.

Actually, is he of this earth enough that we could call it terraforming or do we think he is of some alien race? asking the big questions here on the true show, make you fret. Well, if he's still doing something cosmic to the earth, I think it would still be xenforming, isn't it? It's only if you're turning something else earthish.

Yeah, that's a good point. That it's terraforming. It's not about who's doing it. It's about what it's being done to. Yeah. The friends we made along the way. All right, so we're keeping a close eye on Paul McCartney. Okay, as long as someone does.

Let's go. Helicopter and loincloth watch. I've apparently forgotten to write anything down, but Spinning and Rune Roaks around. Dyson Motor is obviously our helicopter and for loingclothly. Belts covered in pockets. A socket where once genitals were. A socket where once genitals. I feel like... I don't know what happened to that sentence structure. I think I needed some way to make it sound a little more high power than it was. Yeah, we are talking about the Kendall Dick socket. The Kendall Dick socket. Thank you. That's more concise.

I feel like that Lobzang might have actually needed a loincloth. We're off to a really solid start. Francine, have you got a favourite quote? Not really, yeah, no, it's fine. And what was left of this truncated night? Ooh, short and sweet. It is. They're talking about, obviously, the vastly different night already quite early on

on this book of Earth, whatever we're in, the Springfield, anyway. But it's just beautiful ionic pentameter. It is. It's excellent night. Definitely needs a sonic writing around it and if I'd thought of it sooner, I'd have given it a go. All right. Well, that's your homework. Yes, listeners. Homework. Sonics are. Answers on the flapping curtains of an aurora, or however that was. Yes, perfect. Like, the tremendous curtains like the tremendous curtains of the aurora, please.

Yes. Perfect. Mine's slightly longer. Probably for the best. That's what she said. Sorry. Wow, Joanna, we were so highbrow until then. Why are we because I've already used the phrase. Yeah, at least the episode title sorted. Dick Socket is a strong durnaless name.

Dick Socket, Chicago Tribute. See? I'm right, right, sorry, quote. Although I don't think I can match Dick Socket. I apologise, you have to edit this. I am not going to. Thank you. Sally tried to imagine that. Try to imagine reaching for a soft place now.

Sometimes you could see them, see a shimmer in lobe sunlight, often at liminal places, places of borders, between water and land, perhaps, ashore, a riverbank, at dawn or sunset, the border between day and night. And now on this world she had reached her own ultimate border, between reality and unreality, existence and non-existence, life and death.

Sorry, I'm not crying. My eyes are randomly watering. Which is a shame because now I'm laughing at the end of a very good quote. It's a really good quote though. And obviously, you know, if there's a liminal space, we need to grab the liminal space. Which is hard. Shake it. Yeah, it's cool.

Jiggle the liminal space. No, I'm sorry. I expect we'll talk about this a little more later, but this section of the book got real witchy. Yeah, it did. especially with our little Macbeth moment let's talk characters then should we start with our Joshua we usually do

we do like to start with our Joshua don't we as I sort of mentioned in the last section as well the completely non-plussed reaction to Lobzang still being alive he's done this sort of thing all the time and also I've got a headache so obviously the world is ending

and he's going to be already sort of involved in some way I was expecting more of an emotional reunion with old Lobzang because he was quite sad when that one died or went away well yeah that's why I thought this was interesting. It's sort of a mix of character growth and he was never quite as attached

to Lobzang after that happened because he was very upset about the first one. Yeah. And about Lobzang coming back and obviously he's now just sort of very accepting of it all. Yeah. I quite like the reunion though because it was, it felt quite them in that they slip into like making silly jokes about sci-fi films and things. Yeah, it worked a lot better than him trying to meet up with his father or his son. Oh, yeah. I have, I haven't, I haven't Oh, in fact, he met up with his holy ghost. Yeah. And then there was the whole thing about the Trinity that Nelson said in the first book

where he flew and then strode and then had to walk the last steps on his journey with an old man when he was taking his midlife crisis jaunt. Yeah, there's quite a lot of good rule of three here. We'll come back to that, actually. We've got some good trinities and then I'll rant about some of the father-son stuff later. But yeah, any Joshua thoughts? I don't sure, really. He plays his part well, doesn't he? He does. He's not very, very present in this book, to be fair. He's kind of background and then his background is our B plot.

Yeah. But he's pretty much just a sort of messenger slash delivery boy for the actual action. He's taking everything very well. He does try and go soft on Sally at the end there, but she did tell him off, so that's all right. Yeah. I do quite like the, when he's being sent to find Sally to then go and find old Lobzang, he sort of does the, it's been 27 years since the three of us first met. and I feel like I'm getting dragged back to reunions at a school I hated, that we ever going to be rid of each other. As the 20-odd years have gone over the course of these books, he's become more and more like, well, this is happening now.

Fine. So it's quite nice to see him, like occasionally just bristle against things a bit, and it's like a flash of the original Joshua. Yeah, I think we do. I think possibly partly he seems not as present, because we don't get a lot of his internal monologue, do we? And so there are quite emotional and dramatic things happening to him, but we only briefly stop in his head. Yeah, we're really not in his point of view for much of the book at all.

I think it's the reuniting with reuniting with the ambulance unit. Yeah. From his point of view a bit, and I think going to find Sally. Yeah, and it's interesting. I suppose him being at this stage of his life by the time he does meet his dad and he's a disappointment. And there's that and the other bit. But by this point in life, you're like, yeah. scams.

That makes sense. Yeah. I'm also a disappointing father. Less bad. Yeah. The bar was, the bar's on the floor, but less bad. I'm disappointing on like an emotional level, but as a person, I'm pretty impressive. So, yeah.

I'm kind of cool, I guess. So Sally? Yeah, by far my favorite character in the South of the book. Yep. I like all that. Well, I have one rant about the Sally stuff, actually. All right. Start with the rent.

then we'll go positive. Cool. No, just the bit, it's not about anything Sally does. It's when she's on her stakeout and the description of why she's staking that place out and what the people have done. And there's this very heavy implication

that one of the things they done was particularly awful to the woman that was in the house. And I just don't think we needed that in the fucking book. No? No, it's, when I found the place a few days later, the woman was still alive. You can imagine she was pregnant, Joshua. I just feel like you can establish

these people are really, shitty without going that far. And it feels like, I don't know, kind of cheap and lazy to throw in, oh yes, and also they're rapy and add in like sexual assault of a woman, a nameless woman. It really irks me. You didn't act that way when Pratchett did similar things for the watchbooks? No, I don't remember him doing similar things in the watchbooks. There's one where they talk about Vimes nearly losing his mind after he found children's clothes or

something like that. That's a good point. and I'm not sure maybe why I didn't react like that and I am reacting like it here but it did irk me. It felt unrealistic isn't probably the right word. It felt really jarring because it's a really specific kind of dark that I feel like these books

don't generally go in that direction of. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Then again, I felt that similarly when they were bullying that cobalt like just in like that took an emotional twist for me that I wasn't expecting it to. So yeah. but I think I think it was there

to kind of illustrate the self-control Sally has in that she has not just gone in and killed them yeah and the the rage like she says once I start I might not stop it doesn't seem very vimesy yeah it's the the guarding dark idea

she is watching out for her in darkness. I suppose we've already had this setup where she's evending like trolls being mistreated and yeah. And even then she doesn't go as far as killing that I remember. No, although I think she sets it up for a bad end. But yeah, she's willing to allow the police to deal with it, which is interesting. And I thought that earlier it was interesting that Joshua, we had this conversation last time, why do I keep calling him Josh? He's never Josh. that Joshua was sad that, like, researchers weren't going to do something properly, we're going to have the chance to do something properly on one earth or another.

And I was like, oh, you'd have never thought like that 30 years ago. Yeah, there's definitely some changes. I mean, specifically with Sally, where he's, she's willing to let the police handle it, it's some of the naval people that she has had some dealings with before and who she has seen behave. Yeah, that's true. fairly decently. Like we're talking kind of the Armstrong to Maggie Kaufman arm. Yeah.

Not the dickheads that were coming into Valhalla during the sort of brief war that never was. This is true. This is true. But even so, I feel like she's a control freak and letting go of that is personal growth. Yes, no, very much so. And I like the idea of her thinking about what Frank,

who was the character whose name I couldn't remember last week, had said about her being the conscience of the long earth. Yeah. And it's very upsetting that that conversation comes so late and we don't get to explore it a bit more before. Obviously, she meets a very sad end. Yeah. Sad but pretty fucking cool. I mean, epic.

And the descriptions are epic. And if you have to go and sacrifice yourself, then floating around like a moth as the planet dissolves beneath you is actually kind of cool. The detail I loved that amongst many was they were careful to specify that she still had her traveling hat and her backpack on. To me, dressed for the journey into the next realm. Yes, very much so. And, yeah, she was very sweet in that last bit as well. Like, we've seen her before, like, automatically going to save children in a situation. Yes.

And in this one, she's, like, making sure she's got a grip of this poor kid's hand. I know he's 19, but, you know. Yeah. 19's a kid, really. Yeah. Yeah, she's not particularly, I mean, she's even soft with Lob sang. She says, you know, playtime's over Lobangang. there was a note of genuine sadness in her voice

but the way she focuses on Stan takes care of him but in the very clear sadly way of if you're going to go up into the satellite can I have the last sandwich please which I respect I would want the last sandwich I did really like the line maybe I'll make a cocktail of your face just because it didn't make any sense actually again weird slightly jarring

but this is they're up in the ship and there's going to be a cocktail reception and she's really done. She doesn't want to be around people. Maybe I'll make a cocktail of your face. Hey, have you got a gym? I feel like pumping some iron. That felt a little bit like cringially written. Yeah.

It felt a bit clunky coming out of Sally. I did. And I felt like they were maybe trying to give her like a bit of Ripley, like from alien energy. Oh, that's all my. That's almost certainly what that was, wasn't it? Yeah. That's a really good point. I still liked it.

I'll make a cocktail of your face. It's a ridiculous line. It's a steeper thing to say and it's perfect, and I will try and work into conversation. Although I noticed, if I do edit that bit out, listeners, I just said it randomly to Joanna earlier because I was reading my notes and Joanna looked genuinely startled. So I'll perhaps use it judiciously. I don't often make violent threats. You're not a very threatening person. I'm not.

Generally, if I'm overwhelmed at work, I threaten to walk into the lake, which everybody at work knows is about waist deep. so what I'm threatening to do is get myself covered in goose shit. But that shows I'm done with the emails. Oh, anyway, Sally, fucking yes, brilliant. She even said something nice about Helen and that she was good for Joshua, even if she's a mouse. Yeah, that was a very Sally moment of like, oh, we'll dig a bit, but. Yeah, but also you fucked up by letting her go, actually.

Yeah. I'm going to somehow dig it both of you. like shoo-shir, but you're even shitter. But I mean somehow all of this in the most loving way I possibly could. I think we should all be a little bit more Sally. Not too, Sally. Not too, Sally. And not at Joanna specifically, because she's all look startled.

And I've got quite big eyes. So when I look startled, it's very, yeah. Lobzang, brackets, plural. Lobang's. Yes. I mean, talk about George first. A lot of my thoughts are really George in relation to Agnes as well, though. Like I struggled watching Agnes in this as she watches him pull away from being George Abrams and become Lopsang again when he has to.

Yeah, because she was so, she was brought back for a purpose, which is to watch over Lopang basically be his conscience. Yeah. That I'm going to call it scope creep turned into. being his fake wife. And mother to their adopted child. And who hasn't been there? Yeah, yeah. And then because Lob sang's lob sang.

Eventually, he kind of ended up having to walk away. And I think also the powerlessness of that situation of realizing, like, I might be here to be his conscience, but if he chooses to not listen to his conscience in that moment, there is literally nothing I can do. No, because, and I know he's not maybe physically as powerful as he's, was, but in fact, definitely not, but he is in a lot of respects

kind of at least semi-divineers and he's a minor god if you're pantheoning it. And when they meddle in the affairs of mortals, the mortals don't often come out well, even if the mortal is now kind of immortal.

But not quite as got a... There's a mortal as a child. Yes, there is a child involved. Poor little boy. Yeah, and the moments of loss that Lobzang feels and he thinks of Ben. And he had, uh, he had his memories of Selena Jones and Joshua, Agnes and Ben and their home right in the last chapter. And I think it's, it's, you can see that the threat of humanity has stayed even if he's had to give up the human

life he wanted. Yeah. But I think you can also see how inhuman he is in the fact that as he leaves, it is a pang of loss for Ben, not the kind of heart-wrenching reaction that. that Stan's mother has. Yeah. And that Agnes would have, I think. Yeah. And Agnes, you know, her choices become all about what's best for Ben in this. When she says she's leaving him, it's because she has realized now, like, that

George Abrams slash Lobzang could never be a consistent role in Ben's life and he deserves to have consistency. Yeah. And as she says, it's fucking typical that I was about to leave him. Yeah. And now he's going back to being God, fine, fine, bye. fine you can't quit

I fire you or the opposite yeah you can't fire me I quit yeah yeah and then yeah we get to see the original

ambulance lob sang from the long earth yeah a return of an old slightly battered friend slightly battered missing an arm missing some other parts

but we've talked enough about that fran yeah do we know how we got from first person singular

into the general community of the traversing I'm assuming he just sort of first person singular eventually made their way back to that world and he just sort of rode along. Yeah, because did we ever understand what he was planning to do with first person singular renegotiation to not keep wiping out biomes? I think it was like hang around and we'll share knowledge with each other because we are the closest we can come to communicating.

Yeah. There's also, I've not noted it down, but there's a very good. ominous line where he talks about who might have had a hand in the design of the traverses. Yeah. Yeah. As someone who cannot remember a single event from the Long Cosmos, the final book, that's cool. The whole Traversus planet bit actually is very cool. I love the idea that the planet itself is completely lifeless because all the life lives on these

traversal, well-topping biomes. Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit like, oh, what are those kids, little teenagers, sci-fi books we liked with the cities rolling around? Oh, Mortal Engines. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I want to read them again. I quite like this little interaction between Joshua and Sally when they're dealing with both of the ambulance units at once, and Sally's like, this lob sangs, his time in the wilderness has burned out all the fun of him and left behind all the bits I could never stand, all the cosmic destiny stuff.

And Joshua was sort of like, lobsang, slobsang. He'll start talking about movies again in a minute. Yeah. It just goes through this, yeah. Also shout out the line when George is sending Joshua off to fetch this ambulant unit of Elwood. We've got to get the band back together, which is a Blues Brothers reference and made me very happy. I thought that probably a young Lobstang was going to go to the quarterized world, not old Lobzang. Yeah.

As in, wait, you know what I mean? I thought it was going to be armless, not George. Oh, Ambulant Lob sang. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know they're technically both ambulant, but I thought that would have made a lot more sense, but apparently not. No, well, I suppose that George Abrams one is a bit more well-rounded in the affairs of humanity, isn't he? Yeah, and it's also, it's all about the, you know, I was the one who lived here. Yeah.

That is my experience. Even though they've synced enough, they in theory, they both have all of the other memories. Yeah. So apparently experiencing them does make a difference. Yes. even though the unit that experienced them is going to get destroyed. Yes. Let's not think about that too deeply.

Should we talk about Agnes? Yes. I really quite like this moment Agnes has. She's furious. A lot of them are really furious about Sally at Sally for, I mean, her and George are both furious at Sally for setting them up. Or meddling. Or meddling.

What did they think was going to happen? They trusted Sally and this is obviously what happened. could have asked anybody else for a recommendation. If they just, Joshua would have probably been able to give them one. He's very well travelled across the long earth. But no, let's ask Sally fucks with entire civilisations for fun, Lindsay. Yeah, I really do think they brought this on themselves. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, sorry.

But Agnes is upset that Sally kind of setting them up and Joshua points out, you know, if it's true, she's paying the price for this herself. And Agnes says, good. Yeah. says, right, I got that out of my system and now I can forgive her, which is like the brilliant mix of like anger, but I'm still Catholic. Yeah. I also thought she meant like with the regret or something until it became clear in the next sentence or something that Sally was going to. Yeah.

It's like a kind of a guide, right? Yeah, her understanding of the long earth and soft places. Even though Stan was the one with the power. Stan had the power. Sally had the innate. knack and like the divining sticks yes divination rod is that what that's called

yes divination rod this is so irrelevant I almost don't want to say it but now I've started you know you know lay lines yeah yeah are they meant to have anything to do with divination rods or is that just for finding water

I assume right so So I think yes, divination rods and dowsing, you can look for water or laylights. Yeah. But you need to tune it to. My understanding of this comes from my like wicker phase when I was 15. Okay. Because I'd give it up Catholicism, but still need an excuse to burn incense like candles and have some with rules.

So might it be? So when I say yes, obviously... It's coming from a very Catholic place. How... Flash wicker. How we're defining yes and truth and fact are obviously actually quite flimsy and variable.

I feel like I'm going off maybe like a piss take cartoon or something. In my head, like those dowsing sticks look like wishbones. Yes, you can have that. Yeah. But then you can also have dousing where you like have a ring on a... String.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You think that's more layline? I feel like that's more layliney. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm glad we sorted that out. No input, please, listeners, Ben.

Please tell us. Answers on a layline. I'm very confident we got that right. Let's carry up. Should we talk about Stanberg? Yes, I think we'd better. Speaking of overconfidence. I like Stan a lot.

I do. But goodness me, doesn't he sound annoying? Oh, yeah. No, if I like reading Stan. and if I ever met someone, anyone like Stan, I would want to throw him in the goose shit field, like... Yeah, he's, uh... Oh, do you know what? It's the bad jokes, isn't it?

Yeah. It's, it's... It's like TED Talk jokes, isn't it? It's just something to put people at slightly at ease. Yeah, it's... Or in no way being funny. The nextness of it that makes it feel a little bit studied and calculated, even though he is, I would say, like, the most human...

next to that we have met. Yeah. Yeah. Which is very interesting because they talk about him being like almost one of the most advanced, one of them they've ever come across. And so the idea that he's the most advanced and sort of also the most human and ringing nature versus nature of it all because he's grown up around humans. He's not grown up at the Grange.

His speech was a little bit moist from Lickick outside the post office. A little bit, but I feel like it with much better intentions. Yes, I think he thinks he's doing the best. But the thing is even if he's in XT is 19. However, immediately contradicting myself, not sure what Roberta's immediate thought that he was going to damage the world with, I'm going to say, pretty tame philosophy. But then, you know, some people said the same about Jesus. That's true. I think it's less the philosophy itself.

It's more the fact that it's philosophy coming from a next, but very, very, because it's a, because he's created this sort of cult without really meaning to. And like I mentioned in the first book, even Rocky kind of looks at him and feels quite dazzled. So it's this idea of will the philosophy be rejected because it comes from the next and because people start to realize that hypnotic effect and rebel against it harder and it gives another reason for the next to be persecuted. Does that make sense? Yeah. That does make sense.

I was thinking more along the lines of like maybe she was worried that he'd like change his mind a bit or just do unintentional harm through like, you know, just prevaricated just saying something wrong one day because he's so convincing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think yours makes sense. I think both can be true. But he's, yeah, he's very, what's the word, stoic, I think, about the end. Yes. And I think deliberately stoic, like, he is having to hold some of it in, yeah.

And the idea of this sort of free will thing that was set up so early in the first book, he knows he has to do it. He can see the logical endgame and that's kind of it. So there's no point rallying against it almost. I'd say it's a stoic and more like resignation. Yeah. But I do, I think his goodbye to Rocky is very sweet. And I feel very bad for Rocky because he's being called this like betrayer of him. Yeah, so we're getting quite heavy on the Judas and the Jesus metaphor.

Yeah, a little bit. But Stan saying like what I say and I say it's okay and giving him that moment of forgiveness and grace, almost in a similar way to Agnes forgiving Sally. Yeah. I think it's a very nice moment. And I like Stan noticing the churches thing as well. He notices at the Grange, there's no church. It's a settlement without a church and humans tend to build churches.

And he uses it as like a defensive human, because he's very defensive about humanity when he's interacting with the next. He is talking about being this bridge between them. And he says it very quietly, humans also built cathedrals. And talking about how humans have ravaged planets and used resources. And he wouldn't really know because he hadn't grown up on the datum. But his defences, humans also built cathedrals. And I thought that was a really nice line.

Well, at some point we talk a little bit about how Sally had something of the next about her. Like maybe she was a partial, like one of the evolutionary bridges. And I wonder if Stan was the same. Yeah. And that's not necessarily meaning worse or less intelligent than the next, just slightly more human and maybe in a way that was beneficial to communications. And yeah, I loved the end of chapter. whatever it was, Grange, chapter Grange.

Yes. When Rocky's like, what about our stuff? Screw it, I'll buy you new jockey shorts. Are you coming or not? Hell yes, and you grab Stan's hand. Roberta made you get hold of them. Wait, you can't. But Stan could.

I like that moment. But Stan could is a lovely ending sentence. Just like, yeah, he's just better at this. Right, locations. Locations. I don't think going back to the representations of England. I know it's a bit pointy. Yes, I know it there, but I really love the

description of datum London. Oh yeah, go on. The Southern England looked as ice-bound as northern France. London, a heap of abandoned buildings rising from snow banks and frozen floodplains. And the Thames was a stripe of silver snaking through the city, long frozen solid. And just the idea of this, not even in the like the ice fair, you know, that mini ice age thing way, but this idea of this empty frozen London. Yeah.

And these boarded up things. And they're still kind of being the odd, like there's a functional. hotel-ish, yeah, and like a shop selling geese and rabbits. Yeah. I liked the short description of Paris and like the architecture on being almost abandoned and the description of it and then obviously remembering this was written or published five years before COVID. Oh, yeah.

I was like we all got to see that, which was obviously not so icy. But we got to see those weird empty cities. Yeah. It was like I mentioned before, I think, I had to go into central London a couple times while we were still very much in lockdown, and I saw it like empty Oxford Street. And that was, that was weird. But luckily, not frozen, flooded or any of the rest of it. And that's what I look for. In a day out.

And collapsing planet. Yeah, a lovely location. Lovely location. Just, I haven't noted any quotes. now, but it's just, it's really cool. Yeah. Like, obviously it's a horrible thing to happen, and I don't recommend that anyone turns a planet into a dice and motor speeds it up and makes it collapse.

But just all of the images of it sort of cracking and becoming bigger, and first it's weather events, and then you start seeing the lava, lava actually bursting through until eventually it's just, and it's described at one point, like a sort of frozen, a suspended drop of liquid before it finally goes, and it's just the core. Yeah. I've said before, I've known how much I love red Mars and like the geological scale descriptions of catastrophes. And this is one of those like just beautifully written devastation. Which is a, yeah, it seems a little weird to like it as much as I do.

But I love reading about large scale devastation in fiction. In fiction, yes, to be very clear. Or in a nonfiction book about like, the Perbian extinction, which all they sad is long enough ago that I feel like limited heart-wrenchingness until someone describes like, you know, a tiny mammal curling up with a tiny semodont or whatever and then I cry for three hours. Like I nearly did when that tiny little fervil poked its head out and... Oh yeah, that last sign of life.

It was very dinosaur-y. It is very Dinosauric-Tincheny And on that depressing note Hold on, hold on, wait, wait Hold on, hold on I want to know What happened to the moon

That's a good point actually What happened to the moon? Because at some point they said The moon-sized core Of the earth And I'm like, actually, where's our moon-sized moon? Where did that go? It must be gone flying off at some point, right?

Yeah, because they were knocking rocks off it in the originally, unless they managed to dismantle the moon before the planet dismantled, then yeah, it would have just yeated off when the gravity went. Maybe they knocked it in. They didn't knock the whole moon into the sun. No, I mean, as part of, like, as part of the motor. But it was bits of the moon, but I don't think it was the whole moon. It wasn't, it didn't get to the whole moon stage, no.

It wasn't described as getting to the whole moon. I think either the entire moon was consumed by the motor. Or it's fine, actually. And now it's just yeated off and got caught in something else's orbit. Or possibly it crashed into Mars and that started that one collapsing. I'm just worried about the clangers. Oh, no, I think the clangers are fine, Francine. The clangers and the soup dragon are absolutely fine.

Well, thank goodness for that. Let's go and have a coffee. Excellent. Pew. Little bits we liked. Yay. What we got. What we got?

I can see what we've got. But tell us. Brief, brief talk about the tethethyst ocean. and I haven't gone into the science of it all because the science of how continents and Pangas slowly broke up and there was stuff like a massive sea that at one point did go around the whole earth and stuff

is very interesting and how we research it is very interesting and this podcast would be three hours long if I went into that because it involves going into historical like marine biology. You know what I'm like about the sea, Francine. I know what you like about the sea. So I had a little etymology thing. So the explanation of this world and the world's like it

The Pacific breaks through into the Gulf of Mexico, and if you cross the Atlantic, you'd find the Mediterranean flowing through the Middle East into the Arabian Sea. So there's a continuous waterway running all the way around the planet about this latitude, which is slightly above the equator, not by much in the grand scheme of how big Earth is. Quite big, yeah. So it's not quite equator, but yes, it changes all the global ocean currents, and it was like this on the datum earth once. And paleontologists call it the Tethys Sea. Yeah. Tethys, the first reason I clicked on this is that's the name of the sea troll from the end of the colour of magic. I was really hoping you were going to remember that, yeah. No, I did remember that.

I don't think we went into detail on why Tethis is called Tethys when we did the colour of magic, though. I expect we mentioned it at some point. Yes. But not detailed, yeah. Tethis was a titan. So one of the children of Uranus and Gaya. and also Oceanus's sister wife, because a lot of the Titans were a bit incestuous.

And Oceanus was another titan, another child of Uranus and Gaia, but specifically the god of an enormous river encircling the world. Lovely. A girdle. A girdle, a girdle, just like the Tethys Sea. Ancient Greek poetry, obviously we had to go down that rabbit hole because we came across the... This was like a very quick rabbit-holing. There's one thing Joanna likes more than bioluminescence.

It's ancient Greek poetry. Those are my two favorite things, yeah. The two genders. Oh, I did not practice trying to pronounce this. The Dionysiacar. Dianica. Yeah, it's about Dionysius' journey. It's an ancient Greek epic poem by Nonus, an epic in 48 books.

21,286 lines. But all Alexis from Ships Creek there. I love that for you. Within this poem, there is a line about the lakes being described as liquid daughters cut off from Oceanus. As we know, lakes are inland bodies of water that don't connect back out to the ocean. There aren't two major as well as some minor inland seas on the earth, the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. What is happening? We've gone so far from where I thought we were.

But it's believed that both the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea are remnants of the Tethyst Sea. where the continents came together some bits of sea were trapped in and that's why we have these inland seas and so the idea that these are the liquid daughters cut off from Oceanus Liquid daughter, don't love that

they had a lot of liquid daughters it was a thing I can go deeply into that but I love this connection this idea of a god of a great sea that does a river that encircles the entire world and wrapped it by land

and that actually being what the Tethys Sea was and this description going way way back to ancient Greece of lakes being liquid daughters cut off from Oceania's which is exactly what they are. They are remnants of the sea that once encircled the earth and they're now completely landlocked. Cool. And how much did the ancient Greeks know, Francine?

Oh, what did they know? Certainly some things. You blow the thing wide open, is that what we're doing here? I think I might be blowing this thing wide open, Fransom. Well, that's fantastic to stay here. But please, please refrain from blowing it too wide open because the lakes are probably fine where they are. But no, but if I blew this thing wide open

and we got the Tethystos sea back, then maybe the whole earth would just be covered in forests from pole to pole. And that would be fine? Yeah, I think that'd be lovely. Nice and warm, not too seasonal. The Suffolk Wildlife Trust will be very upset because they're trying quite hard to make sure

the Heathland doesn't revert to forest. Oh, good point. We were talking about that last week, weren't we? All right. That bit can be heave. For the sake of the Suffolk Wildlife Trust, I won't blow this whole thing wide open and bring back the Tethyssee. Thank you, Joanna. I want you to know I'm not happy about it.

What did you like, Francine? Nothing that much. I'll never like anything as much as you like by a liminescence and ancient Greek poetry in 48 books. And I've always said that. Hold on, I'm shitting hell. I had it open and then I put it down while I was listening to your Lake Saga. Right. Is it a saga in Greek?

I thought it was Norse. Is it an odyssey? Well, no one's on a journey. That's a specific one. I think saga's a north thing, a Norse thing. Like the Edda is a saga. I think we can call it a saga. Okay.

But just like knowingly. Knowingly. You can call it a saga but have a little saucy wink. Right. Yeah. They are vivisecting. Viversecting, yes. A beetle.

Mm-hmm. And, um, The limbs terminated with splits into twig-like appendages like fingers, but fingers bifurcated too into still finer manipulators. It goes on down to the nanoscale, Boring said. We think these creatures could manipulate molecules. Ooh. Which, again, something I don't think we had enough time to explore,

because fucking fractal fingered fuckery. Yeah. Amazing. Try saying that five times fast. Oh, I don't think we can. I'm not going to. Listeners. at home. Results on a postcard. Yeah, sure. A fractal postcard. Yeah, that's generally like

an entry point in saying I really like how alien they managed to make these aliens. Yeah, and the idea they don't know how conscious they are if they are in type, like mechanical or biological and both. They think that they play, which is interesting, because only a certain amount of creatures on Earth play even quite intelligent ones, like squid don't play. Yeah. Squids don't play. Squid don't play. Wow. That's the least appropriate slang for my accent I've ever tried.

That can't be true, but it's the best I don't remember. But yeah, like they're full of this like spongy stuff, like bone marrow it sounded like, didn't it? Yeah. But they've got like the web of intelligence in them or something and there's room for it to grow because it's in their stuff. I stopped being able to understand what they were trying to get at at some point because I was distracted by the fractal fingers. The fractal fingers are very cool. The whole idea is humans can only advance intelligently so much

because there is literally a limited amount of space for our brains, but because then the brain is part of the entire body, there is a much higher cap to the intelligence they could get to because they've just got a lot more brain to be doing that shit. They do seem to be building themselves as well, don't they? so I imagine it's needed. They could expand the carapace. Yes.

Slash chassis. There's some design element because there's this humanoid shape to them, even though it's not the most efficient shape that these terraforming, xenoforming creatures, could be. It's very good horror. There are metal creatures on Mars. There were metal creatures on Mars. I don't think they were Beatles.

No, but. There were spiders. That's a good point. Maybe they come from a similar rootstock. Oh, good. That's quite possible. All right. I'm not going to blow this thing wide open because Sally Lindsay gave her goddamn life to make sure I didn't.

But no, I want to. And Sally Lindsay, I believe, can come back like an avenging angel, hat still on head. Yes. And make a cocktail of my face. A Molotov cocktail off your face if you're really not careful. So that's all I've got to say about that for now. Cool.

Right, the fund, this is not really a bit I liked. This is where I get into some slightly ranty bit. Because, right, not about the fund itself, but there's a really, really massive missed opportunity in this book. You have this idea of Joshua kind of searching out as long-lost father, and it reveals this incredibly cool story about the history, about the history of the Walters and how that led to Joshua's father meeting his mother

and all of these things. And I just feel like you could tie in this father-thun-son theme so much into the rest of the book in a way it feels like it doesn't quite bother to do. Like maybe it's my editor brain because I've been having to write stuff with very tight work counts recently, but I feel that you could cut all of this out and the book would be missing nothing. Maybe it's the setup for the next book,

because you're right. I did also expect more of a pay-off. There's no payoff to it, but there's so much in the book that could be pay-off. Like just this idea of fathers and sons, you could tie it into Joshua's relationship with Lopsang, which is not a father-son relationship, but is a very complicated one

between two somewhat masculine figures who have different levels of human experience over each other. And obviously, Lord James' relationship with his son, Ben. And now admittedly this is, a very outlandish concept, but Sally actually processing the trauma of her dad being a raging asshole a little bit could be in there. There's, it's a throwaway line that Stan's father just kind of leaves because he can't deal with Stan. And then, and then pretty, pretty absent fathers. Yeah, there's a theme there. You have this sense of parenthood and ownership that Lobzang feels over

humanity and over the long earth and you tie that into his rejection that he feels by the next. And you go into like all of these individual things. apart from Sally processing the trauma of her dad's being an asshole, because I feel like that's all happened off screen, and also her processing was just hitting something a bit. Listen, listen, there's no time for processing. I've got these people to slowly starve to death. I know I won't be thinking while I'm doing it.

I'm doing other things. Don't ask what. Shut up, shut up, shut up. Fine, I'll come with you. I would like to point out in all of this, that none of this is a criticism of Sally in any way. I do still love Sally Lindsay very deeply. But yeah, all this stuff is there.

and then none of it's tied together and used. And I feel like they built like this incredible paint palette and then drew a stick figure. Oh. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does. You're right. Yeah. Harsh but fair, I'd say.

Yeah, definitely harsh. And I feel like it's because, you know, this is Pratchett, but it's not just Pratchett. It's Stephen Baxter. And these books are a very different shape to Discworld. But it's just, if this was a Discworld book and they were that many things, then everything would tie together. in a very interesting emotional way at some point in the book and it just doesn't happen here. There's not room, is there? There's no room for it.

No. But I feel like if you're going to make room for that longer story, I feel like they kind of just wanted to do some more world building and explain. And that world building is very cool and explaining how we got a kind of population explosion of natural stepers and how you get something like the Lindsay family with like a lot of steppers in it and the idea of Willis Lindsay being married in and marrying the wrong sort. it not being about class at all, is all very interesting. It just didn't need to be in this book. Yeah. It would have been cool if it was like a prequel, like a prequel novella. I think it either should have been a prequel novella or they should have been a minute to emotionally process and tie it to George and Ben's relationship.

Did you have a similar criticism about some of the B plots in the other books? Was that me? One of us did. I think we both have these criticisms going through the Long Earth book, less so in I think the first one because the first one I said what I really liked about it was all these like these seemingly completely disconnected vignettes and how they sort of slowly do all come in together with each other yeah um but yeah I feel like the long war and the long Mars we both spotted bits like this that just didn't need to be there and I feel like also it was

kind of just there to give Joshua something to do so he's not quite the same emotionally he is at the beginning except he still is yeah because And I guess it's a reason to get Nelson in the book somewhere. Yeah, that's always nice to see Nelson. Yeah, I'm always happy to see Nelson, big fan of Nelson. And it goes into the religion of it all. And there's something very, this idea of patriarchal and family figures to do with religion. There's so much there you could do with it.

And it's just not done. It irks me. Fair enough. I could do that. I did find myself, unlike almost any Pratchit B plot, I did find myself going, okay no hurry up I want to get back to the plot yeah very much though especially the actual

description of Joshua meeting his father we haven't really talked about Freddie Baden at all uh kind of gross yeah I don't care but I mean that almost kind of worked for me just in the yeah that makes sense it was it was a yeah that tracks moment and I thought

again it was tied into my I was already feeling a bit missing opportunity with this because I think by the time we got to that bit where Joshua explains all of that to Sally and we see it through Joshua's eyes, I think it was becoming clear it wasn't going to go anywhere. But the end of it where he's sort of saying, but I didn't take the money and that counts for something over and over again and Joshua kind of shrugging it off. Yeah. And that was interesting. Yeah.

This idea of someone claiming to that what they felt was a very moral high ground for them. Yeah. Maybe the only moral high ground. who's ever tried to stand off. Yeah, quite possibly. Then the reaction to it at the end, Joshua tells the story to Sally and that was it. That was it. Have you been to see him again? Joshua shrugged. And that was it. The whole thing was just a shrug at the end. Well, I was wondering at that point, actually.

How much does Joshua know about what happened on the Long Mars? I was wondering a little bit as well. I don't think he knows. I mean, he obviously knows enough of the bare bones of it to know that the bean stalks are happening now. Yeah. I don't think. All the emotional shit, though. not chance, is that? Like, very unlikely Sally's going to have told him that her dad almost let her die for practical reasons. Yeah, and only picked it for practical reasons and did that. I assume he might have

been filled in a little bit on Frank's demise. I don't think the emotional, what the choice that Willis Lindsay made in that in that moment, but I think Sally would have spoken to him about Frank a little bit because he knew Frank as well. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess, it's, it's, quite funny in a not very nice way to think of Josh unloading his in anybody else

as he is quite like dramatic here's my father story when Sally is like yeah I tried to reconcile with my dad too didn't go great trauma

she didn't even try she was like forced into reconciling with her dad is what was it which of them said to the other and like, oh, you just tried to reconcile with your dad like the hero always has to.

I think it was her to him, wasn't it? I think it was her to him. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's my point. What else did you like? I liked, as I did, I think, in the past, the kind of allusions to possible historical

stefers, waltzes. Yes. Just like a little list of people. It's fun to come up with. might have used this power and that's how they did what they did. First, shout out, obviously, to Thomas the Reimer, who I don't know how much we've talked about Thomas the Reimer, really. I feel like we've just taken it as red that that's something our audience is familiar with. I think we talk about Roland, obviously. Yeah. But similarly, Thomas the Reimer pops over to Elfland.

Yep. And I'm assuming that's what the stepping would have been. But I mean, he was, you know, He was a prophet and a wizard and a, he's a folk legend as Thomas the Rimer. Yes. Sub-subject of some great songs, in fact. Yep, including Steel Ice Band. I've got a good one. Yeah, I feel like actually we should talk about him at length at some point. Yeah, we should probably do Thomas the Rima special. All right, so revisiting that. And then the other one being Percy Blakeney was mentioned. Yeah. And that's the Scarlet Finfinal, who I was like, that's an interesting one because I thought

was entirely fictitious, but Pimpernel used to name real rescuers as a whole section on the Wikipedia page here. Ah, right. And the name Percy Blakeney was fictional. So, like, in this case, it still was a little standy outy. But as I was here, the tartan Pimpernel was the name given to the Reverend Donald Kasky for aiding over 2,000 allied service personnel to escape from occupied France during World War II. Beautiful.

Pretty cool. There was the Blackburn. Pimpernel, which was a name given to several people for helping refugees and political escapees from various places, which is called, including Nelson Mandela. Cool. Because the Scarlet Pimpernel and the story, like, rescued people just before they were guillotine, and I should probably mention that. Yes.

Like, the Angel of Mons is also described here as a legendary, legendary, but not fictional figure. Do you know what I mean? Does those different? the Angel of Mons, which I kind of, that's one of those stories again that you just kind of know it's in your osmosis, senior folklore osmosis section. Yep. We've all got a folklore osmosis section.

I hope so. Otherwise, a lot of what we say doesn't make any sense. And I can't imagine that's true. But yeah. So as they described it is how I kind of understood it is like this supernatural kind of angel thing that comes in and helps you out in the trenches or the no man's land. But again, there's a whole log-old Wikipedia page on it, including a hoax, William Doidge hoax, where apparently some kind of record of the Angel of Mons was made up as part of

drumming up interest in a Gothic Revival mansion. Right, yeah, no, that makes total sense. I have no further questions. I have so many further questions, Francine. Yeah, that's that thing I like. Cool. Should we go on to the big stuff then? Yeah.

Cool, big and small stuff, because I want to talk about big versus small philosophies. Yeah, go on. I'm trying to work out the angle here. I just want to talk about how much I actually do really enjoy a lot of the ideas in the book, really. All right, cool, good. Spoilers, though, obviously I'm talking about a binary here, so we can guess where this is going to end up.

But we start with this binary presented between stellar and self. Selendine of the next, Stella, as the big philosophy, understanding the cosmos on the biggest of scales and maybe even participating in its evolution, whereas Selendine a poet. And it makes me very happy as well, because we talk about the next day, struggle to appreciate art in the same way, but they have poets. Can I say, I think it's Selendine. And I'm saying that only because I've just read three poems by Wordworth about this fucking flower.

Right. Okay, Selendine. He keeps rhyming it with things like Shine. Okay, Selendine. I think it's important for this new level of humanity, whatever the next art to exist, that they have poets. If you're going to struggle with visual art, at least have some poetry.

Yeah. I mean, preferably figure out the visual art thing too, lads. Come on. But poetry is better than nothing. Hell of a thing to say if you're a poet there. Speaking as a poet. Yeah. Better than nothing.

And yet, so Celendine is the small philosophy, all that's essential of our reality can be reached through the contemplation of a single flower. The mathematics of its diploid and tetraploid forms, the way it's small face presses to the sunlight. Yeah, no, I didn't get weird again. The numinous, not through the, reach for the numinus, not through the infinite, but through the infinitesimal. I've always said that. One of the things you say to me quite a lot. And then you get this dichotomy between the Lobtangs as well. Lob sang dichotomy.

The Lobzang dichotomy. The ambulant unit that's been with First Person Singular and then the traverses in general has contemplated the very large and infinite. And George explored the viewpoint of a single human going into the detailed tiny human life. Yes. And I think it's also like an interesting from a character perspective that with George doing that, it was always kind of a study as much as it was an actual want to just live the life.

Oh yeah, yeah. Like that disconnection from it even at that level. But then so you get these kind of, this big idea and this small idea, the big idea of the really cold horror of this Tipler Wayfront. And I really like the chapter where it's explained with the little asides of, your name's not Jakasta, fine.

We haven't seen him ages. No, I was really happy to have him back. I was very happy to have him back. I hope Jacaster went on to better things. I hope. I think Jakasta has. I think she's done quite well for herself. She can't speculate. Why?

Because we don't have the time. We've been talking about big ideas. But the idea of the Tipla Wavefront is it's so big and cold and horrible. It's the kind of cosmic horror I really love where it's not something coming at you with any kind of viciousness. It is cold and uncaring and unfeeling and you are simply in its path. the auditors when I love I don't mean I want that to happen to me

I just mean I really love reading stories that play with this kind of idea the auditors the Reapers in Mass Effect are another really good one as well and the response being angry anger at the Beatles

who are they to fall on a world and consume it for their own purposes Ringo Paul stop it Stop consuming the world for your own purposes. We've talked about this, Paul. I wish I could do a little puddley an accent.

And so then within that big philosophy, this big, scary, cold thing, you get the scientists who are trying to stay detached because they have to and because the whole point of being a scientist is that you learn as much as you can. And they're called out for it. Marina says, you know, that's our world. You're calling it dying. It's dying and you're calling it interesting. And I thought there was a very interesting point.

made that datum science institutions haven't really recovered from Yellowstone. And the next generations of scientists will be amateurs because the idea of scientific study is not something that's really spreading out into the long earth. It must be weird knowingly being part of the last generation like that, because usually it would be interrupted in a different way so that you wouldn't have the older generation of scholars being like, well, we can't teach the young ones. Yeah. It's so weird. And then you think the next are going to be in charge of the advances from then on, but they're not in a way where it can then be shared with humanity in any really

deep and meaningful way. And it all ties back into the idea of the greening and the next choosing to kind of let humanity revert to a prior state. Speaking of the scientists and their tone about the dying Earth, actually, takes you back a little bit to Roberta, doesn't it, when she was younger? Yeah. And crying and sounding a bit detached and then, yeah, having to go and process the emotions about this entire ecosystem being wiped out by a high-ynolds. pickane. Yeah, I think this idea of you can be as cold and

detached as you want while you're discussing it. At some point, the emotions of it are going to hit you. Yeah. It's just trying to keep control over when they hit you so you can still do the thing. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, that was very eloquent of me. Agreed. But then you compare that very big idea

to the smaller idea of this sense of ownership over the new Springfield, which is what I'll refer to the whole planet as, because we don't know what number it is or whatever. Because the long earth is this endless, infinite, bountiful thing. These people don't even all live on that one earth that often, although they, but they return to it as it's dying.

And there's this stubborn pioneerness of it. Even Agnes is offended. She's pissed off that the Beatles are using materials from that. This is our world, not theirs. And feeling really territorial, this idea that there weren't people there even 50 years ago, but now it's ours. What do you think about that then? Because I'm going to tie in the question I had very quickly.

Yes. Would you have fought for it? Because I thought it was bonkers. I understand feeling a bit territorial maybe, but like they're a perfectly good world. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I decide.

It's not even like, oh, we've all lived here for ages, whatever. Like, it's their generation, right? But it moved in like that. They moved into the shell of the old place. Yeah, it was like the older. Well, I think they're from the generation that first settled. there but they're the people who started wandering off almost immediately. But yeah, it's...

No, I don't think I would have done at all. Yeah. But I do wonder, I know this is two English writers, but they're sort of applying an American perspective to it. I wonder if they're looking at this very different kind of patriotism that exists in America and how that could then tie to becoming very patriotic about what you view as your homeland. Yeah. But I don't think I'd have that in me at all.

I would, I would just, I mean, I've considered moving house because I saw a particularly large spider and was too scared to hoover it up. I think, I think if the planet was dying, and also it would cause me discomfort because I'd be on an even weird asleep pattern than I already am. Like, I would just move. If there was a chance, if there was an opportunity. I don't know, I don't know, because now I'm thinking about this planet, the thing is this planet, I know a lot of, about this planet. And I know there are things I like, like tigers and Mount Etna, that I wouldn't want to see eaten by Beatles. And so I'd want to, but you don't know in this situation. All you know is that little patch of woods you're in. Exactly. And also, it's not like

staying there can save the planet. No, I think at one point, though, they're like, maybe we should fight back. Is there a way to fight back? Yeah. That's why I'm like, I don't think I would even try and fight back. Probably not, no. But I would feel more inclined. if I thought that I could affect some kind of change but in that situation where it is completely hopeless there's nothing you can do by being

there like yeah I would just go I mean I wouldn't go far like I'd want to stay with the community and hopefully stay in the stepwise worlds and have those to share with each other yeah but I wouldn't try and leave behind some good steelers some good iron tools obviously but you know

yeah I think there would be a bit of me as well that would try and have a go at it for a bit just out of curiosity. Yeah. Like, not full time. I don't sleep great as it is. Let's give it a go. Yeah, exactly. Maybe this will work for me.

Yeah, maybe actually I'm built to survive on a 20-hour day. Yeah. Actually, maybe I like the countenance dissolving under my feet. Have you ever thought of that? Maybe actually that would bring to me. Maybe I'm not very good at walking on solid land. Yeah. Maybe a lava river would heal me.

We don't know. Maybe I enjoy floating like a moth above a campfire. That does sound really fun actually, apart from the dying. I feel like you can write a poem about Blating like a mothel above a pet campfire. Just, you know, until you've got the visual arts down. I would drill do for now. You're not going to let me forget that.

No, unfortunately, I'm going to have to stop going on about it because out of context, it sounds like I'm just being a prick. As opposed to when you threatened to make a cocktail of my face, that was fine. Yeah, in context. context being Sally said it first Sally said it first and it's funny and I'm not sure what it means

I'll muddle you I'll muddle you like a Mahito boy That's better That is at least threatening Provided you know what muddling is And how a Mahito is It still requires context Your audience yeah

Right But okay So what I thought you were going to talk about in this section. Yeah. I'll now ask about, say the big versus small philosophies. So I thought we were talking about like apprehending the universe versus doing the job that's in front of you.

Oh, that would have been a much better route to go down, actually. We all got real Tiffany for a little while. Yeah, we did. I think Stan very much channeled some of the later witch books in his philosophizing. I also thought he managed to do a very good job of trivia. Realizing the rule of three in his weird TED talk. I was good at numbers. Wouldn't deny that.

I could count three before I was, well, three. He pulled a face, which confused me. But round about then, I figured I mostly didn't need the numbers that go much beyond three. There was only one of me, two of my parents, together we'd made three. I got three sandwiches here, three beers. I guess I'll be needing the john three times during the shift. He's using all these rhetorical devices and it's the rule of three and all that. And then he just like, yeah, launched.

into stuff that I very much agree with. Maybe he is good at speaking, yeah. He is good at speaking, but we can also feel the TED Talk vibes of it. Well, that was what I was going to talk about, actually, the sermon on the Beanstalk. And he takes these three golden rules, and it's be humble in the face of the universe, apprehend, be humble, do good. And this was the point I was building to. I was talking about big versus small philosophies, and it's a binary, and we know how I treat

binaries. It's this collapses the binary because this is big and small. This is be willing to apprehend everything. Face the truth of the world. And that can be on a massive scale or it can be tiny and looking at a single flower that apparently I've been saying wrong for a really long time. Or Wordsworth is saying wrong, one of the two of us. I'll tell you what, Joanna.

You know what? What's he going to do? You say it how you want. Fight me wordsworth. You didn't let things like context determine how you've probably. pronounced maladite. You know, we could have just not brought that up, though. But you were right.

I get around to your way of thinking. Oh, yeah, good point. Yeah, maladite. I'm sorry. Why am I being? I'm not meaning to be mean. No, it's fine. Right, yeah, so be humble as well.

Accepting the limits of your ignorance doesn't mean you can't be aware that there are much bigger things beyond your comprehension. and that's something I feel really strongly about as well I was talking to someone the other day about going from being Catholic to being atheist and to agnostic or whatever you are and going through that phase that I think you do sometimes go through when you come out of an organised religion which is to be an absolute fucking asshole about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And to be very smug about it. And my main source of loathing is, you know, smug atheist, not a big fan of Richard Dawkins, obviously for a lot of reasons, not a big fan of Ricky Jervais and hope he falls down a well. but the smugness about it and I went through that phase and then I came out the other side into

well yes I don't believe in the Catholic God anymore but I'm not so arrogant I don't think there are definitely things in the universe that are much larger than my comprehension and that's fine sometimes I have a little existential crisis about it but that's just part of making this podcast is that we have to have an existential crisis about it

yeah no I mean I didn't bother updating the chalkboard for a little while now. Yeah, I know. I think we still have them. So I think at this point it is compulsory to have an existential crisis because it's not being properly recorded. Okay, cool. If we go a day without one.

So, all right. Well, let's just keep having. For the sake of the paperwork, let's just keep having our existential crises. Yeah. And then, yeah, the doing good part is like, to sum up as do the good that's in front of you. Exactly.

Just all good to do the big goods. And that's very, very Tiffany. It's so Tiffany. Which, by the way, rockets me back slightly. to the bit where they're quarterizing the beetle earth, New Springfield. Yes. Terrible set of names for a place. And they're imagining it and they have to visualize it with the necklaces and the taking a curl off.

And isn't that very esk? And then Tiffany later. Yes. We do at this point get to, this is just magic, I think. Yeah. Especially the gut punch of Joshua feeling when Sally died. I mean, his headache. always just been magic, haven't they?

Yes, very much. Like a lot of the sci-fi in this is fantasy sci-fi. Oh, it's very much fantasy sci-fi. Actually, I was going to ask you about that. The gut-punch Joshua feels. I know it's timed, so it's as if he feels it when Sally dies. But I very much read it as he feels the earth being cut out of the chain because he's so tied to the long earth.

He can feel the quarterizing. Yeah, what, that's probably right. And the physical reaction is that. And then the mental one is that means Sally's definitely. Yeah. Yeah. That was sort of how I read it. I mean, it's still very much magic, sci-fi.

Yeah. But no, I think you're right, actually, because that makes sense. Because he's never felt like a physical tie to it. Like it took him six months to find her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was doing his fun little Sherlock Holmesy deduction-y stuff.

Yeah. But yeah, it was interesting that we get Stanberg as this quite promising hope for humanity. And then I think is unfairly maligny. by the next as being like possibly dangerous and then it's possibly fairly found as the only person who can save the entire multiverse. Are we on multi? Is this a multiverse? Yeah, it's multiverse.

Also, I'm just going to quickly throw in as well. My major disappointment of this book is that do you remember in the Long Mars at some point there was a really weird dark earth and some people had gone and then not come back? Hmm. Yeah. haven't done anything with that. I think that the ultimate, and I think sometimes it's on purpose and sometimes it's, oh, we've run out of time for this or we've had to edit it out. But the real heartbreak

throughout all these books is, oh my God, that's a great idea and we don't have time to revisit it. Bye! Yeah, I know, I'm just really annoyed about that one particularly. Oh my god, this entire ecosystem's battery wrapped up by hype again, love me. Look at all the turtles and their pyramids, bye! Crabs. Crabs. Crabb civilisation.

Oh, and we found out about the green stars. Yes, we did find out about the green stars. We know what that is. That was something else to do with Dyson. The Spears. Another Dyson thing. Another Dyson. But the same Dyson.

Same Dyson. Different cataclysmic event. Different cataclysmic event. Linked cataclysmic events, but different. And on that note, Francine, have you got an obscure reference video for me? I do, and you'll be thrilled to know it's got nothing to do with physics. Thank God. We're back into flowers.

Yay! Well, kind of. I picked Salindine as my obscure reference finial slightly erroneously, because I looked up to Salindine, as I understood it. And there are two Salindines, turns out, of course. That aren't very closely related at all. So there's the Greater Salindine, which I was like, oh, I'm so smart.

He's named after that because the Great Salindine was like a folkloric herb for healing sight issues. So he's a philosopher and he's making them see. Oh, cool. But it's the other one. Like explicitly they say it's the other one. It's the word's a worthy one. It's the word worth one. Which actually is probably fine because.

Actually, it's probably fine. Which actually is probably fine because even though I'm. not being all smart about folkloric herb use. I did get to learn that there are recommended cultivars called brazen hussy and copernob. All right. Well. And the Ken Azlet double. Which I think is a wonderful follow up to the Kendall Dick Socket.

The Kendall Dick Socket, yeah. Nothing like a Kenzlet double. Well, I'm going to try and grow some brazen hussies in my garden at some point then. Yeah. And then so because I decided I should probably actually have an obscure reference finial that made any kind of sense. I didn't know what a bollide was and they were talking about that a lot in the destruction of the earth. Yeah. And it turns out it's a very, very, very, very bright meteor sometimes used to just mean any kind of really bright fireball.

So when they're talking about bolides, it was just like, I don't think he's leaving it to pick that up because of the noise reaction. Maybe, but we've got a, you know what I mean. Yeah, we've got a video clip for the episode and we're absolutely, this is an audio medium for most of you and I do realise that. What I'll do is link a video. Yeah, of just Francine doing that. Oh no, I was going to be like an actual Boli, but yeah, sure. Right, linking an actual video over Bollard would make more sense, but can we also have that

clip? I just scroll down further. And apparently in geology, it indicates. a very large impactor. So maybe it means that. Maybe it means both. There's a lot going on, geologically speaking, in this scene. There is quite a lot geologically happening.

Are we geological at this point, or are we into astronomical? How diffuse does a planet have to be before it stops being geological? Are all planets geology? I think maybe. Sorry, I'm probably going to go out. I've had half a pint. I haven't drunk in 10 years. And you'd never know.

You really wouldn't. I think at the point these questions start being asked is probably the time that I say. I think that's everything we're going to say about the long utopia to listeners. I have so many questions. Stay tuned for our follow-up after-hours geology slash astronomy session. Oh, now you said that. I don't want to do that anymore. Yeah.

I knew that was all it would take. Operation. Right. That's all we're going to say about the long utopia for everyone, sanity. However, we will be back. I would say next month, but it'll be later this month because we did this a bit late. With some other stuff, we're doing hopefully a special revisiting Pratchit themes episode. Yeah.

And we may also at some point very soon have a visit from a special friend of the pod. Is the rhymer? I found him. Dragged him back from Fairyland by the colour. Just for one bonus episode. I had to show him on a microphone once, but we got that. He's from the 1200s. You can't understand a word he's saying.

We've both learned Old English. Right. In the meantime, of course, dear listeners, you can join our discourse. He's so freaked out by the microphone. What is this devilry? I don't know enough old English to say it in old English. By next time, dear listeners, I would have learned old English because I got distracted clicking on things.

Or middle English, let's say. It'd be middle English. Yeah. Can I do our outro now, Francie? Yeah, no, please. I'm nothing stopping you. You are. Right.

Until we come back, dear listeners, if you want us back after this, you can join our Discord. There's a link down below. You can follow us on Instagram at The True Show, Make You Threat. On Blue Sky, Make You Threat, Pod on Facebook at the True Show. make you fret join us subred it r slash tts mmyfxed sands your thoughts queries, castles, snacks and saucy postcards the tree showmaking frette, pothed at gmail.com

and if you want to support us financially and get uncut video episodes of the podcast and I would highly recommend this week's. The way you said that made it sound different than it is. Not that sort. You can go to patreon.com forward slash the true show make you fret and exchange your hard earn money for that kind of bonus nonsense and sometimes some other stuff. but not that kind of bonus nonsense. Until next time,

dear listener, just like before Agnes, soon once again, I'll be in with the Oort Cloud. I've been hoist by your own health and safety patard. Hi-vis Patard. Hi-Viz Patard. Do I love your sex type?

No. Yes. For once I'm on board. Tons of your sex tape. I'm saying nothing to that. I was about to make a horrible joke about myself and my proclivities. Excellent. Listeners, write in your speculations on a filthy postcard.

But it's got to be filthy, like old school British seaside filthy. Yeah, not like covered in coffee. Yeah. Or hard core pornography, especially. Yeah, if we can avoid. Saucy rather than filthy, please. Yeah, saucy postcards, please. We've got to be.

we've got a scale somewhere. I thought you were about saying we've got standard straw polls.