The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 21: Wyrd Sisters Pt.2 (There Must Be Bees)

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan-Young and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “Wyrd Sisters”. Words! Wallowing! Wonder! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail] to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Homer’s Barbershop QuartetRich and Creamy Tonkotsu Ramen Broth RecipeAlarums and excursionsThe Hedgehog can never be buggered at all (v2)Iambic Pentameter"The Mushroom Hunters" by Neil Gaimanp145 (Herne the Hunted reference) The Annotated Pratchett FilesHerne the HunterThespisRule of Three podcastSpaceballs (1987) - IMDbThree Flavours Cornetto Trilogy - British Comedy GuideBored of the Rings20 'Community' Theme Episodes, Ranked - UproxxRowan Atkinson Live - Dirty NamesCaitlin Moran quoteOne Reason Cross-Cultural Small Talk Is So Tricky (Peach/coconut theory)Finding Cassie Crazy by Jaclyn MoriartyKing Richard III Visitor CentreRichard III SocietyYou're Wrong About... (@yourewrongabout) Headlong (Surviving Y2K) (Stitcher)Jo made a pie! Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

So while I was waiting for you to make your coffee and get ready, this is not a raw how day you have taken so long. That meant I was sat in front of the laptop. While I was waiting, several civilizations rose and fell. No, that's what happens when we play pool, Francine. Oh, that's right, yes. As I was sort of sat with my laptop and didn't really want to start doing anything else that would take me away from the laptop, I opened up pages and started actually writing the book that I've been aggressively bullet pointing about

while not starting writing. So I now have 900 words of a prologue. Oh, fucking fantastic. Yes, I mean, don't get me wrong, it's all shit. It doesn't matter, first drafts are always shit. Yeah, first draft is just you telling yourself the story, I can fix it in post. Yeah, you're getting your media mixed up, but fine, that's good. Well, maybe I'll make it a mixed media, please. Four of the chapters will only exist on Game Boy Color.

Actually, you do, because I've still got mine. Oh, I was thinking then the book comes with a Game Boy Color. That sounds very art student-y. To read chapter 13, you must take the book outside and turn three times Widdishians of the full moon. Oh, now we've got my crap. While coring like a crow. This doesn't actually do anything, the thought of it just amuses me.

That's very Yoko Ono, because her books are instructions, aren't they? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I keep getting to get one of those. Yoko Ono is yet another woman in history, although she's still alive, who's been unfairly villainised by popular culture. Very much so. I did like, there's a joke where there was like a Yoko Ono type character on an episode of The Simpsons that was all riffing on the Beatles and said character turns up at the pub

and she was like, there was like a single plum suspended in perfume, served in a man's hat. That line always stays with me as well. And then Moe just brings it up from underneath of us. Yes, the fact that he has that handy and serves it. Moe is an underrated character. He is. I keep accidentally picking out episodes with him in. I'm up to like season 13, 14.

So I'm kind of coming down the other side of the peak now. Yeah, I feel like I've been picking random ones from random seasons, but I haven't gone past 16, because I'm like me. Yeah, I'm at the point now where these are the episodes that I remember being on new when I was allowed to stay up and watch the new episodes of The Simpsons on a Saturday night. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

All right, should we make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. My kitchen smells insanely good right now. What are you cooking? It's a stock for tomorrow. I'm going to make proper Tonkotsu ramen. So at the moment I have a big stock pot with like pork belly and chicken wings and spring onions and ginger and garlic all bubbling away.

Yum, yum. It's going to be good. Sound good. All right, Alexis. Yum, yum, David. Ew, David. Right, sorry. Should we actually do the podcast thing?

Hello and welcome to the Tree Shall Make He Fret podcast in which we're reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan Young. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part two of our discussion of Weird Sisters. We are going from page 86 to page 156 in the original Korgi paperback edition. Other editions may vary. Yeah.

Well, a fun fact that one typo where he said, where it says... Where it's Granny instead of Nanny. ...Nanny looks like instead of Nanny is the same in both UK and US edition, but not in Terry Pratchett's version. So somebody early in the publisher editing process made that mistake. And it didn't get caught. That's quite entertaining, because that really fucking confused me. It took me a second.

I went and read the entire chapter again and then looked it up. So, yeah. Notes on spoilers. We are a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, major spoilers for the book we're on, Weird Sisters. But we will do our best to avoid spoiling any major feature events in the Discworld series. And we're saving any and all discussion of the final book, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there.

So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. And we are trying our best to ensure we do get there, aren't we, Joanna? Doing things like staying indoors, washing our hands. Snot touching our faces. Slowly declining into weird timeless versions of ourselves. Anything to follow up on? Yes. I looked up what they meant by diverse allarums.

Or diverse allarums, I should say. It comes from allarums and excursions, which is martial sounds and the movement of soldiers across the stage, possibly. Or possibly just a general mess of noise. And as I was looking it up, I found that one of the synonyms for it is Ballyhoo. Ballyhoo? Ballyhoo, which I don't think I've heard since I was a very young person reading Uniblyton and such, and I enjoyed very much.

So let us try and use Ballyhoo in conversation. Is that in the same vein as Hullabaloo? I suppose so, yes. Other follow-up, we did ask about the lyrics to the Hedgehog song. Luckily, my partner took that very seriously and found some lyrics and a tune has learned to play it and has put a video of it on YouTube, so I will link to that in the show notes. Excellent. And I've really enjoyed four days in lockdown full of ukulele practice.

I figured at this point I'd like insert a verse of it into the audio, and then we can link to the full thing. You can bugger the bear if you do it with care in the winter when he is asleep in his lair, for I would not advise it in spring or in fall, but the hedgehog can never be buggered at all. I'm just grateful that the idea of doing it with nothing but a stuffed hedgehog covering his own vegetables occurred to him after he'd made the video, and in time for me to veto it. And you did manage to stop him constructing a waggling balloon on a stick? Oh, but look, I was going to do a... Remind me to be a jester next week.

All right. I was going to surprise you with a jester costume this week, and I completely forgot because I was distracted by making stock for ramen. Well, now you're not going to surprise me next week. We all have forgotten by next week. That's true, I will have forgotten by next week. Yeah. So previously on...

Yes, sorry. Francine, what happened previously on Weird Sisters? A coven stand upon a blasted heath when from a storm a dying soldier comes, holding an infant who the witches save from hooded riders sporting royal crests. King Berent's dead becomes an angry ghost. Duke Filmet takes his place upon the throne. The child upon the heath has royal blood, and so the witches opt to meddle once. They grant him gifts with some embarrassment and send him off to be a thespian.

Poor Tentazorta melts into a drab and weird-less winter, scaring common folk. Meanwhile, the land itself, scorned by the king, sends messengers to stand at Granny's gate. King Berent's dead locks Nanny's cat away, knowing she will come searching for her pet. I can't believe you wrote the previously on in iambic pentameter. That's amazing. I'm so glad you noticed.

Also notice that's probably brilliant. So this is not in iambic pentameter pentameter. Tell us what is happening this week or in this section? This week in Weird Sisters. We start with the full wandering, reminiscing and wallowing before he crashes in on Magret picking flowers. He realizes she's a witch, the occult jewelry is a dead giveaway and runs away. Coven meeting goes tits up as tempers rise.

The witches agree there's no meddling to be done. Margaret storms out and Granny and Nanny almost come to blows. Magret uses an apple to discover the name of her jingling suitor and Nanny goes to the castle greebo hunting. As Nanny is captured by felmut, our shorn tracks down Magret in a panic. Nanny in the stocks has a lovely chat with the dead king Berent's in the dungeons as Magret heads for the castle and shorn heads for Granny. Granny dressed as a not-so-humble apple seller,

lorks, turns up at the castle to find Nanny. The Duke and Duchess prefer to torture Nanny and the fool isn't very happy about it. An unhappy ghost king rants about being killed with his own dagger as Nanny reveals she knows the Duke and Duchess did the dastardly deed. Magret, also an apple seller mode, arrives at the castle to rescue Nanny and experiences a cheeky bit of sexual harassment in the workplace. Magret goes a bit purple post it and with the fool's help makes it to the dungeon and reminds the door that it used to be a tree and the witches confront Duke Felmut.

The fool asks Magret on a date. The Duke encourages Granny to smile and wave at the crowns waiting for the witches outside the castle. The witches head towards home. Nanny with a haunted apron and Granny via a ditch. Granny hits breaking point and decides something must be done. After a chat with the fool about propaganda, the duchess decides that the play is the thing. The witches get together for another common beating and the storm says hello. The fool collects Griebo.

Granny reveals her plan to move the entire kingdom 15 years forward in time. The fool gets lost in the forest returning Griebo home and as the witches start a complicated bit of magic, Magret crashes in on him and Nanny keeps the cock crawls quiet as Granny completes the spell and time truly does move especially for Magret and the fool. As you so rightly say. So I'm calling the three witches on broomsticks refuelling each other as helicops watch. One for me.

Any loincloth? It's not officially said but again the weird caveman ghost probably wearing a loincloth. Probably. Did he pop up this one? Well yeah because when Granny takes the stone from the castle back to her house so that the Duke can come back, all the other ghosts come along. Quite right, quite right. So I'm calling that a win on loincloth watch.

And why not? Cool, cool, cool. So let's launch right into quotes. Yours is first on page 112. You're wondering whether I really would cut your throat, panted Magret. I don't know either. Think of the fun we could have together, finding out. Very passive aggressive.

Not even after that, what's the word for it? Aggressive. Yes, oh possibly. Sweetly aggressive. Yes. There were lots of like quotes I really like from this section and I was tempted to nick another bit from the storm because I do love the storm, bless it. But I noticed, and this was a bit of a theme from last week,

that I'm enjoying Magret and her character development a lot more in this book than I did on previous reads and more than I was expecting to because I was so focused on being happy about seeing Nanny and Granny. Yeah, yeah. And I really, really like this scene specifically, where she's still very naive and doesn't really realise she's being sexually harassed. But she's also quite willing to get aggressive enough to threaten to cut their throat if when they're getting in her way.

Yes, they are terrible, terrible, terrible things. And I hated just even reading that bit because it's like, ugh. They are very well-written gross men. Yeah, and in the hands of a different fantasy author that would have been a who lets sexually assault a woman to generate character development. Whereas this, she doesn't notice she's getting sexually assaulted, but still gets her character development and threatens to cut them. Uh, the quote I nearly chose as my favourite was around here,

and there's something like, um, I like a woman with spirit, he said, as it turned out, he was wrong. But this is a scene that in other fantasy novels is 50-50. Obviously, the woman discovers actually she's very powerful and kicks them in the head, but is also 50-50. Woman actually gets horrifically sexually assaulted instead of giving her real character development. I'm looking at George R.R. Martin.

So what was your favourite quote, Francine? What did you pick? I did pick something about Storm. And it's not that this line made me laugh, particularly, and it's not even that notable on first glance, but it's, um, page one, three, five. Besides, it had had a good stretch in the equivalent of pantomime down on the planes. It just had to be philosophical about being back up here now,

with nothing much to do except wave the heather about. If weather was people, this storm would be filling in time, wearing a cardboard hat and a hamburger hell. Which is, like, a vaguely smirksome joke. But he's done a metaphor about personification in a very long extended personification metaphor. Yes. Which is clever as fuck.

Like, this entire... Storm is a running background joke. Yeah, is a running background joke metaphor, character, something. And then just, he's just slipped in. And if weather was people, this storm would be filling in time, wearing a cardboard hat and a hamburger hell. Like, he just added another layer of simile to the metaphor, and they're both anthropomorphic personifications.

And it's absolutely bizarre, and it just made me double take. It's also the way it brings it back to the round world, as discworld plans refer to our plane of existence. It could have done a within-discworld metaphor, and arguably would have done in a later book, maybe instead of hamburger hell, it was Harger's House of Ribs. But just to remind you that the author that is describing the storm knows what a cardboard hat in hamburger hell is.

Yeah, and I feel like it's okay that he did reference round world, because there was, like, this extra layer within his metaphor. Oh, yeah, no, I think that brings an extra layer to it. I think it's really good. As in, I feel like he may have even stuck with it in later books, because it was a clever little thing. Yeah, it was, he's a very... Sometimes you remember how technically good the writing is,

as well as just how enjoyable, and that's what happened. Yeah, it's very easy to get caught up in how enjoyable the story is, and how funny it is. That, yeah, to suddenly see the masterful technique happen. And still so early. But part of what makes the book so good is that there is all that masterful technique happen, that you don't really see, because they're so good and so funny. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's like a million of these in every book,

so we just skip through, because it is part of the tapestries. It's like looking at a large tapestry and admiring the intricate needlework on this particular shadow, which is just part of what makes the whole thing amazing. Yeah, you can't see the wood for the trees. Forest for the trees. Yeah, can't see the wood for the trees, is it, anyone? Yeah. Okay, good.

You can say it. Easy way. Checking I haven't been a dumbass. No. Goody Wemper Research Witch. I want back to my business card. Goody Wemper Research Witch. Yeah, all right.

Well, yeah, obviously we don't really meet many new characters, but there's a few that get talked about, and I like the, this is Magra wants to figure out what this guy, she fancies name is. And it fills in the background detail of Goody Wemper, who's the witch who trained her, was a research witch. So she didn't know it was, you know, it wasn't just I have newt, but she would research whether it was common spotted or great crested, what substitutes will work, insatiable curiosity, basically.

And there's even a nice bit in the second footnote about her that explains that her last bit of curiosity was testing if a broomstick could survive having its bristles pulled out mid-air, which I like mostly because she'd trained a small black raven as a flight recorder. Nice reference to the black box. It ties in slightly with what we were talking about a long time ago now. The kind of early feminine scientific theory. Yeah, like the mushroom hunters poem.

I like that. But this is, you know, which is, you get both witches and wizards, you get some that things work because they believe they're going to, and this is something the book kind of goes into in detail that Goody Wemper would research exactly what was the right kind of newt. Granny would use any old thing and it wouldn't matter. Or Margaret wouldn't use exactly the right kind of eye of newt. Granny would use anything and it doesn't really matter because both believe that it will work and that's really what powers it.

But you get it with the wizards as well, where some witches or wizards are very into research and the exact right way of doing things and some will throw any old in and see what happens. Honda Stevens and Goody Wemper would have had a lot to talk about. Yes, and I like the idea that this is an older witch who's passed away, although it's now the young witch carrying on this curiosity, whereas in the wizards books it's more the younger wizards who are experimental and the older wizards are sort of a, well don't proletary, much the dungeon dimensions might get in. And they're both right.

They are both right, like both kinds of witches are right. Yes, yeah, Goody Wemper's a good character even though she's dead, well done Goody. Which is a nice, pratchety thing of managing to build a very full character into half a paragraph. Yeah, for sure. Now Arshaun hasn't quite been fleshed out yet, but you still get a good idea. But it's this nice idea of one of Nanny's endless amounts of sons and grandsons is working on the castle gates. So she walks in and the guard just sort of goes, oh morning mum, morning Arshaun.

And later on Ar Jason gets mentioned as well. And obviously there's thousands of Ogs. Many, many Ogs, it's a large tribe. But there are a couple of Ogs. And oh God, no, that's the King of Ogs. A Ballyhoo. A Ballyhoo of Ogs. Yes.

Marvelous. Thank you. Excellent. But I like that Nanny can just stroll into the castle even with the Duke in charge, because Arshaun's on the gates. And Arshaun goes, I like something about referring to a family member as Ar, what's it Ar, what's, because it's not something I do. There's a bit of, it is a very northern thing.

But if I'm doing one of the rants, the long extended, how long can I keep talking? Will you never believe in our Christine? Won't believe what she said to Arshaun at Arcaron's at Christening. Oh, I bet I would. Christine, you'll never see that Tupperware again, do I not mark my words? Look, I've got nothing against a haircut like that. I just think you don't lend the good Tupperware with the potato salad to that sort of haircut. Yeah. So Arshaun and a slight little reminder to keep an eye out for Nanny mentioning our Jason.

Because we'll end up talking about them a bit more in some of the books. Jason's like the oldest old boy, isn't he? Yeah, well, he's the blacksmith. But not the blacksmith from Eagle Rites. Although I think he was probably proto-Jason. Oh yeah, definitely. Oh, very brief follow-up-ish. I still haven't found the Duchess's name, if indeed it is ever mentioned,

but Duke Fellmett is called Lionel. Lionel Fellmett. Yeah, the doctor said Chastised him by name while in the dungeon with Nanny. Marvelous. This is, I don't know, less of a character more on the concept, but Hokey, which what I really like is that Granny says, by Hokey, I'm making wish he'd never been born. And that's the first time you really see the name.

It's just a casual invocation as a witch is very pissed off. And then it's almost 20 pages later. There's another reference to Hokey. Has he never mentioned in the earlier books? I'm sure we've talked about him before. I think he's mentioned in Eagle Rites, but it's the first one in this book. Oh yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah. Yeah. And then it's less than 20 pages, but it's good for you pages later where the book explains, oh, Hokey is half a man, half a goat, and a practical joker. He's a sort of god of mischief. Halfway between Loki and Pan. Yes.

Hermie, the hunter? Herm, I think it's just her. Hunted, sorry, is mentioned as well. And that's a reference to Hermie, maybe the hunter. Like, her or herney, I'm not sure. Yeah, let's say herney. He's something from older mythology. Yeah, he's a ghost associated with Windsor Forest,

which is in box, yeah. But apparently he turned up in some TV series on Robin Hood. Oh yeah. And a lot of people thought that was a Terry Pratchett reference to Herm the hunted. Yes. And then Pratchett turned up on the thing and said, no, I took my references from quite some time before that.

The quote from Pratchett on Alt Fan Pratchett, and this is from the annotated Pratchett file. When Alt Fan Pratchett readers mistakenly assumed that the reference originated from this series, Terry cautioned, be careful when reference spotting. Herm the hunter certainly did turn up in the Robin of Sherwood series and on an album by Let's Breathe romantically to music group, Clannad.

But any passing pagan will tell you he goes back a lot, lot further than that. There we go. Oh, and then somebody under it in the forum says, he was a forester who was hanged from an oak for some crime. So that's quite cool. And then the story of herney, whatever, got mixed up with the legend of Cernonus,

the original Celtic horned god similar to Dr. Good grief. Well, when you go into mythology, it takes very many twists very quickly. I don't know enough about old Celtic mythology, and I must read more on it. I only remembered that quote so well because of referring to Clannad as Let's Breathe romantically to music.

Black Alice. Oh, yeah, I like that this, I think this is the first mention of her we get in the discord books, and obviously we never meet this character because she is dead. It's not like that's exactly a preclusion for never meeting somebody. For instance, King Varence, and as we shall later find, Reg Shoe. Yes.

King Varence is one of the main characters in this book, and he is really rather dead. Black Alice is sort of this archetypal, evil fairytale, witch slash, she's just all of the fairytale witches in one. The other witches sort of aspire to and say, well, she did this, maybe I can do something similar, and she once sent a castle to sleep for 100 years, turned her pumpkin into a royal coach.

No point turning up smelling like dessert. She was a hoidin of witches, Doyen. And I just, I like the little reference to her here because she does become a shorthand for all fairytale witches. She is the proto-witch that all of our witches in these books spring from, and it brings me much joy. Terrible business with those two children pushing her in an oven. Yes.

Which, yes, like I was talking about this monologue I wrote, that definitely sparked some information for trying to write an archetypal fairytale crone, or writing someone who was becoming an archetypal fairytale crone because at the time she wasn't full crone yet. She was a transitional crone. Anyway, transitional crone, name of my third album. Locations, the kingdom kind of becomes a character.

Yeah, I mean, we obviously talked about Lanka as the kingdom and the villages and townships within it. Oh yeah, remind me, I'm making a list of the villages and townships named within this book, and I will try and keep up with it on all the times we get to the ramtops because they just casually mention random names throughout all these books and I want to make a list. They do, one of which is scund.

Like, I am vaguely keeping track of this on my atlas, but it's like the actual map from the atlas. But it's such a small area, it's very difficult to post it on, and I haven't put it on a board so I can do draw strings and drawing pins and string yet. I'm not going to put draw strings on my map. But yeah, the kingdom somewhat becomes a character and is alive and is concerned,

and I like that they sort of talk about the nature of what the kingdom is and that it's more than just the land, it's everything that inhabits the land. Like a dog. Yes, it's a bit like the universe. It's a moment with Granny. Yes. It's a grudging respect for my grant.

There's a few nice moments between Granny and Magra, actually, where they have a bit of grudging respect for each other, and it does bring me some joy. Scund, though, I did want to point out scund, because it comes up in a few books. But yes, scund is a weird place where the trees walk around and talk to you, and I believe actually we do go there once because I think rinse wind has dropped off not far from scund

at the beginning of the life, fantastic. Is that the magical forest of...? With all the talking trees. Also, I really like saying scund. Scund, yes. Scund. That's actually how you pronounce scum. Let's not start that again.

Oh yes, thespia, which is not an actual place, but a fun little joke or rather Granny's misconception of what a thespian is. I'm just putting there as an excuse for a small etymology tangent, because thespian comes from thespis, who, according to Aristotle, was the first person ever to appear on stage as an actor playing a character in a play, instead of speaking as him or herself. Ah, I did not know that. It was in 6th century BC.

Excellent. Well, I learned something. I know who I am referring when I call you a thespian. I just sort of think of it as a byword for twat. The fool's guild. Yeah, we get more of a description of the fool's guild of Antmoorpork, because, obviously, the fool grew up there, which was a horrible, dark and sober place. And this brings me onto the first sort of little bit I liked.

Maybe like, isn't the right word. But I enjoyed this detail that comedy and fooling and capering is an incredibly dark and serious business, where these kids are basically not allowed out in the sun, and whereas the next door assassins would have great fun in the playground and be allowed out into the sunshine all of the time, the fools have this horrible, dark time stuck inside, taking very, very seriously the nature of clowning and japing and telling jokes. Yeah, it is weirdly realistic.

Like, you can imagine that being how fools learn things. Well, I mean, all comedies can be taken very, very seriously, like when people start breaking down why something is funny. It immediately stops being funny. I disagree. I like breaking down why things are funny. Oh, no, I do. If you take it too seriously, though, is why I really like that podcast I've mentioned

a few times, Rule of Three, which is comedy writers sitting down and breaking apart something they love and talking about why it's funny works, because they're not taking themselves very seriously, and they do take a lot of time to quote bits from it and giggle. Yes. Yeah. I think it's once you start putting it alongside gatekeeping, it starts getting po-faced.

And there are people who sort of look at it and go, yes, but you can't find that funny because you haven't seen this. Yeah, yeah. And people who think you can't find Spaceballs funny. If you haven't seen all of Star Wars, there are other reasons not to find Spaceballs funny. I am aware. That's fine.

What Spaceballs, that sounds like something I wouldn't like at all. It's actually not bad. It's God, someone listening will now be screaming at the podcast. Mel Brooks doing a Star Wars parody, and it was made not long after the original Star Wars trilogy was made. There aren't many parodies, I find funny, actually. See, whereas I really like parody, because to parody something well,

you have to really know the shape of what you're parodying. I was just listening to an interview with- Parody well, yes. Yeah. I was just listening to an interview with Edgar Wright, who wrote and directed Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz and World's End. Very good parodies. Exactly, and they are so good because they are-

And he describes them, he says their love letters. They are Valentine's to these genres. The point is not like a scary movie, which is one I hate, where it looks at taking the piss out of every trope of the genre. These are written with love, and we have perfectly taken the shape of the genre and put comedy in it. Yeah.

Whereas scary movie is all about taking each part, each trope, and just magnifying it by 100, and stuffing as many as possible into each minute, which is just overwhelming and annoying. Do you remember that re-written version of The Hobbit, or The Lord of the Rings or something? The Board of the Rings. Yeah, that was terrible.

Yeah, that was really bad. Yeah, I don't like parody books often, although there is quite a good- It just means it's weird enterprise for us to be embarking on it. I don't know, again, Terry Pratchett does it well, because he knows the shape of something and also knows when to shift away from it. This parody is Macbeth,

but it also parodies all Shakespeare. And the nature of storytelling, and witches in general, and fairy tales. And is also just a good story in its own right, importantly. Yes, you could have absolutely no prior knowledge of fairy tales, Shakespeare, or narrative, and still find something to enjoy in this book. As I probably wouldn't have done the first time I read it.

I would have been a bit older by the time I read this. I would have already known Shakespeare and Macbeth quite well. But yeah, I don't think parody is necessarily bad, I think, that can be. And it often is, to the point where I'm not really willing to take a chance on one, generally. Which is probably a shame. Community is another one that does it very well. Community does it very well

because it enjoys the things it's sending up and knows the shape of them, although community even became too self-aware in the latter seasons. They were like, oh, this has worked really well for us before, so let's really do it. And it becomes very... Yeah, and there were still the odd gem episodes, but they weren't as constantly.

Yeah. Good. But I think the key is that it has to be a good thing in its own right. Yeah, it has to work without any... Like, when I saw Shun and the Dead for the first time, I hadn't really seen any zombie movies. Like, I hadn't seen 28 Days Later or Evil Dead. Yeah, exactly.

Or Dawn and the Dead. I hadn't really seen any of those films, because it's not really my cup of tea. But it was still a really funny film to watch. And then as I got older and watched a lot of those films, because I felt like I had to, I'm still not super into horror as a genre. But then it's fun, because there's another layer to it.

All of which should say, yeah, people who take comedy too seriously piss me off. But it's a very, very accurate thing for the Falls Guild. That comedy is taken so seriously. And that the whole point of this is not to enjoy yourself in the process of being funny. Possibly slightly the opposite of it. The first one I liked was Silly Herb Names.

I'm paid 88. And this is an example of just one of my favourite kinds of humour, which is possibly just the simplest. Apart from straight up pratfalls. Which also could be great in the right circumstances. Which is just finding funny sounding words. And again, this is another human lorry speciality. A human lorry speciality, frying lorry speciality.

Oh yeah, Silly Words are great. Here's Willy Fellamort. And Treacle Wormsey. And Five Leaves, False Mandrake. And Old Man's Frogbit. Just odd sounding words. And again, that was the thing I liked about Brass I'm Old and the heavy handed bits were the silly sounding names and stuff.

And just, yeah, I like, and perhaps he's very, very good at that. Like all of his things sound a bit like that. Yeah, one of my favourite comedy sketches is a really, really great sketch. It's basically just Rowan Atkinson doing, like a register in a classroom. And he's incredibly, I'll find the sketch and link to it in the show.

No, I can't remember what it's called now. But he's just incredibly straight faced. And he has such a gift for making a word sound a little bit silly. But it is such a joy. Silly Words are really good fun. They are, they are. And finding out why they sound silly is one of my favourite things, which again is slightly dissecting jokes.

But it's a different kind of enjoyment. My next little thing I like is very similar. This is because it's a selection of silly words, but also because it goes against a funny trait, which is a bunch of people are protesting outside the castle as nannies heading up as a humble apple seller. And a peasant says, is gone too far this time,

all this burning and taxing and now this, I blame you witches. It's got to stop. I know my rights. And Granny says, what rights are they? Normally, and someone says, what rights are they? There are some of them.

Because when someone says, I know my rights, they mean the Daily Mail told me that this, I have a right to not be treated by a foreigner in a hospital or something. Sorry, I particularly hate people today. The peasant responds with, Dunnidge, Cowage Unordinary, Bad Dunnidge, Leftovers, Scrummage, Clary and Spunt,

and Acornage every other year, and the right to keep two thirds of a goat on the common. Did you look up any of those words? I started looking up, I was trying to look up what sort of rights a farmer or a peasant would have in medieval Europe and feudal Europe. And I basically ended up reading up on peasants

and feudalism and got really angry and wanted to start a revolution. So I stopped before I went down too much for a rabbit hole. Cool, cool, cool. I'll try and follow up on that next one. If any historical people with historical knowledge know about the rights of farmers and peasants. Yeah, then give us a shout.

Let us know. We'll follow that up in the next episode. Basically, I brought that up so that the listeners can do the research for us because every time I try, I get distracted and start a revolution then. I could do it for you. I mean, I won't, but I could.

You'd end up going down a rabbit hole and then starting a revolution. I'm out of torches and pitchforks, Francine. Apple sellers. I said, said Magrat, I've come to sell my lovely apples. Don't you listen. And just the mental gymnastics.

He'd been told not to let witches pass, but no one had said anything about apple sellers. Apple sellers were not a problem. It was witches that were the problem. And she had said she was an apple seller and he wasn't about to doubt a witch's word. Does the apple seller trope in itself? I love.

And I think it's repeated possibly a few times in later books. Just, you know, Granny going, lock some mercy. I'm an old woman. Let me through, barge. There's another really good bit in the last section of this book

that does a similar thing to the apple seller trope bit where they all have to pretend to be little old ladies gathering. That's what I'm thinking of. Yeah. Lots of locks of mercy. But I wondered if you knew where the trope came from.

Is it just snow white? I didn't look it up or anything, but I would assume yes. Snow white. Yeah. Yeah. No, I wouldn't expect you to look it up as I put that in right at the end.

But I was just wondering whether that was something you knew off the top of your fairy tale filled head. There are a few fairy tales that you sort of poison through and therefore have like an apple seller type figure to give out the frozen, the frozen. I suppose you could freeze your poison fruit. You could freeze them

and then take them out of the start of the day and then even on a summer day by lunchtime you'd be selling cold, crisp apples. I don't know how well apples freeze. We should look this up, business idea. Marvelous. Frozen apples, get your frozen apples. What?

By the time this goes out, I will have already done this and tweeted pictures of it, but one of our lovely listeners has sent me a really good pie cross recipe. So I'm going to make a blackberry pie with that this weekend. Oh, what was her handle?

I feel like we should actually shout out people who are useful. Let me find it. Who are kind. Useful is a bit harsh. At PettyJ1 has sent me a really good pie cross, well, sent us a really good pie cross recipe on Twitter, which is the first instance

of a listener technically sending us snacks. Yeah. Cheryl is her name. And I would say the surname for Opsec reasons, but thank you, Cheryl. I'm definitely going to try and make that as well. Yeah. I'm craft at baking,

so we could have another comparison photograph of our foods, which will be very embarrassing for me, but amusing for everybody else. There is a reason I didn't tweet a picture of the bread I baked yesterday. I made dwarf bread. They would have made an excellent battle frisbee.

I did that the other week, and I don't, I genuinely don't know what went wrong is the weird thing. So I made the same white loaf I always make, and it came out, it did rise, but not all the way, and it was just an odd texture. This one I decided to try fermenting the dough overnight,

and then shaping it and proving it in the morning, as opposed to what I have been doing, which is fermenting the dough for about five hours, and then shaping it, and then leaving it in the fridge to prove overnight. And basically, I found the latter works a lot better, and overnight ferments do not work for a loaf. It worked really well for the focaccia I made.

God, that was good looking focaccia. Oh, God, it was so good. Yep. Anyway, time traveling hot dog franchises. Yes, speaking of, Joanna. Speaking of socially distanced apple sellers, it's just a very nice little reference. There's a bit of the civil disobedience

where these people are protesting at the castle. They're not really sure what they're protesting. Some of them are jerking rakes and sickles in the air, going, gah, a few citizens haven't quite grasped the idea and are waving flags and cheering. Yeah. And it says several sellers of hot meat pies and sausages in a bun had appeared from nowhere,

and we're doing a brisk trade. And there's a little footnote. They always do everywhere. No one sees them arrive. The logical explanation is that the franchise includes the stall, the paper hat, and a small gas-powered time machine. Those listeners who have read future books

will see this as a little pro to have a character we haven't met yet and be a bit excited. In a bun. In a bun. I just enjoyed that because it does. Anytime you go somewhere where there are large gatherings, there will be someone with a little hot dog stall or a burger van or something.

Yeah, yeah. And I never see burger vans especially going from A to B. They're just there. I think it's because they move very early in the morning. No, time machines. Yes, no, you're right. You're willing to make a small sense. Okay.

Cool, cool. Time-travelling hot dog franchises. And it's kind of similar to the magic shops that you loved so much. And... Yes, it's like a tiny sausage-filled magic shop. A dog. Sausage.

Speaking of hot dogs, what else are we putting? Hitch's hon. Everything. Everything, France. Everything, Moana. Yeah, I mean, this is like barely a thing. It's just it was reminiscent of

Hitch's hon everything with Mrs. Whitlow. When Nani Og is talking about Grodley, a witch who they don't want to ask help from because they're not going to bloody ask for help from anybody. Yes, well, I haven't clawed myself to talk to her ever since that business with the gibbit, you recall. I dare say she just loved come snooping around here,

running her fingers over everything and sniffing. I love that this is Granny having a very prideful moment. But also, like... Yes. I bet if you like to... Does like Nani mention dropping your Hitch's and Granny's like, oh, if I've been dropping my Hitch's,

I'm just going to stick them on everything, just in case. Everything, I mean, sorry. Fuck. But I also like that Granny definitely kind of picked this up from Mrs. Whitlow back when she was hanging around in Ampmore Park while Esk was at the university.

Yeah. But yes, that's a lovely thing. Speaking of Hedology. Oh, this is this is only really just a little line. And it was nearly my quote, but I wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere else, which I'm allowed to do because, like, fuck you, the podcast is 50 percent mine.

More haha. And you write the show plan. Ah, yeah, there's also that. I get to decide to apply random sound effects to your voice because I edit and you get to shoehorn topics in wherever you want. I've not yet decided to use that power, but I know it's there.

Whereas I've gone mad with power. Mad with power. And you're putting in a quote in the little bits we like. Good grief. When will it end? Well, this is when they're they're doing the big spell. And the idea is that Granny's got to fly around the whole kingdom. So Nanny and Magrat are there as like refuel refueling stations

for her broomstick. And Granny takes too much and Magrat doesn't have enough to safely land. And as she plunged down towards the forest roof in a long shallow drive, she reflected that there was possibly something complimentary in the way Granny Weatherwax resolutely refused to consider other people's problems. It implied that in her considerable opinion,

they were quite capable of sorting them out by themselves. Yeah, yeah. Like if you were kind of babied by Granny, you'd know something had gone terribly wrong with your personality. Yeah, it's like where you're saying, you know, they don't want to ask for help. They've got far too much pride. No, it'd be a fine thing if she came over running her finger over things,

looking for dust and helping. If Granny offered to help you, that would be an insult. Where would we be if we went around helping everybody? Which is because witches do help. Like that's their basic thing, but it's very... Yeah, we're not doing so many words. It's a... But they help by untangling things for you to pick them up, I'd say.

Yes, yeah. Yes, they help by making things the way they should be and then by association that makes things better for individuals. It is quite flaccid for someone to think, now she's all right, she can figure that out. Yeah, for sure. So speaking of Margaret and Granny. Let's speak about Margaret and Granny.

Let's talk of Margaret and Granny. When they're getting ready to go to the castle to rescue Nanny, there's a lovely description about each of them getting dressed. Yes, loved that bit very much. And there's... So Granny very slowly puts her pointed hat on with her ferocious hat pins and gets out her witch's cloak, which was once a black velvet and has a silver brooch

and it's described as no samurai or questing knight was ever dressed with as much ceremony. And then you sort of contrast it with Margaret also getting ready to go to the castle in her case. She's less sure of herself and she sort of put a clingy dress on and some rolled up stockings in to make it look a bit better. And had attempted some makeup and covered herself in a cult jewellery. I associate very heavily with both of those getting ready stories,

like on a good day and Granny on a bad day very much, Margaret. There's a really good Catlin Moran column where she talks about when women complain about not having anything to wear, what they mean is I don't have anything to wear for who I'm trying to be today. Yes, is that in one of her books? It's in the anthology of her columns. It was like a Sunday Times column,

which I really enjoyed it as a piece because it resonates with me a lot. And there is something into how you dress like we'll prepare you for a day. And there are days where you're granny and you know, I need to be this today, so I will very ceremoniously put on the cloak and the brooch and the hat and the hat pins. And there are days where you're Margaret and you sort of think, oh, I kind of want to be this and I don't really know how. And so maybe if I just keep putting on eyeshadow and a cult jewellery

and shoving stockings down, then I will end up in the right shape. Joanna, I implore you not to try and pad yourself with stockings. God, no, I need to not step my phone off my table just doing that. But enough about my breasts. What about bees? No, wait, bread knife? Bread knife. Oh, yeah, this is the other thing.

A immigrant character development and why I love her, but this isn't just character development. This is like a core thing of her character, where she's getting ready to go and she looks at the tools of her craft and there's the special white handled knife in the preparation of magical ingredients and the knife with runes carved all over its handle. And she goes to the kitchen and she opens the drawer and she takes out a bread knife and shoves that in her boot.

And something told her that times like these, a sharp bread knife was probably the best friend a girl could have. And I like that at the very core of her wishy washy, a cult jewellery, peeling an apple to find out her lover's name. Yeah, but I mean, it worked. I mean, it worked because she knew exactly what kind of apple. But at the very core of her being is a sensible woman who knows that what she really needs is a bread knife in the boot.

And as much as Granny would benefit from occasionally understanding a bit more of Magrat's way of doing things, she has at the core of her an understanding of how Granny and Annie do things, which is that, yes, stick on all the occult jewellery you want, but have a bread knife in the boot just in case. It is almost, and let's skip past my next one, we'll come back to it, because it's almost the opposite of the cold sanity in the centre of insanity, or it's related.

Yeah, it's a similar theme. It's like the hard core of witchcraft, which is then surrounded and hardened by whatever type of witch you've decided to be. Yeah. That makes sense. Am I talking politics? No, no, that makes perfect sense. So where? Very generally.

Well, it's like a common theme in, yeah, okay, maybe not perfect. Who among us is perfect? Did I drink my coffee? Oh, there's some lower left. So the whole cold sanity at the centre of sanity thing is about the Duke, obviously. At the heart of his madness was a dreadful cold sanity, a cure of pure interstellar ice in the centre of the furnace. Somewhere beyond the event horizon of rationality,

the sheer pressure of insanity had hammered his madness into something harder than diamond. And this is why the Duke is such an interesting villain, because yes, he is mad and giggling and trying to file off his own hand, but there is this cold sanity I will cling to power at all costs within it. Yeah, it's like the laser onion, isn't it? He's got the thin outer hardness, and then Granny realises that, and then like, yeah, right, he's got the thin outer hardness, then he's a giggling wreck.

And then. But it turns out there's like a stone in the middle of the onion. Yeah. Fruit metaphor needs some work. A peach. A peach. Because then he's got like this. A hard peach.

Anyway. My old boss, John, used to say that cultures could be loosely grouped into two fruit metaphors. There are coconut cultures where there's this kind of outer hardness, which is very difficult to penetrate. You could work with somebody for 10 years and never know their first name. But then once you are family, you're family, and you're coming to the wedding, you know, all of this stuff.

And then there's like the peach cultures, which would be like, traditionally America, somewhere like that. You know, in the two minutes, and you know the whole backstory, and you're going around the house for dinner. And but then there is this hardcore where you are not going to talk about the important things, or you're not letting them into the very, very inner circle. That's the difficult bit.

Yeah. I always thought that was interesting. Fruit metaphor. I think, yeah, the coconut culture thing is interesting. So I doubt you like Japan is a place like that. Like, I think that's the working example he used. Yeah. Yeah.

There's so much surface nesca. Which is like, I don't know if I've brought this up before, but this is there have been studies to do with them, how etiquette systems based on population to land mass ratios. So like in Japan, part of the reason that there is such a complex and rich etiquette system, and so many rules to follow is because there are a lot of people living in a very small area of land. Whereas somewhere like America,

etiquette isn't really a thing. It's about, you know, general nice and friendliness. And you're very open all the time because people are very spread out. Yeah. And where there is etiquette, it's usually quite based on either heritage of their culture or on the academia, let's say, or something like that. So yeah, so a bit like at the core of all witches, no matter what periphery they go for is a bread knife or a very, very sharp hat pin.

Yeah. At the core of the Duke's insanity is this is, and it's a thing, perhaps it does a lot for going through drunk and coming out the other side and becoming nerd. Yeah. Yeah. Or going through magic and coming out the other side. And the, you know, real magic is knowing when not to do magic. Yeah, which again is in this section, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. And what do you think the practical object at the core of your periphery is? Oh, God. My God, it's got bread knife. Granny's got a hat pin. What do you think Nanny's is? It's a tankard.

It's the core of Nanny is a very different confidence to Granny's. Granny is very, very confident to the point of being ignorant and not submitting it. Nanny's confidence is entirely based on that a grinning, toothless woman holding a point can ingratiate herself into pretty much anywhere and ingratiate herself out of it when needed. She's never really worried the whole time she's about to get tortured, because she knows she'll be able to get herself out of it. I think mine is a cheapish bic pen. That's fair.

Bit of a viral. I don't want to say mine's some kind of knife because it's actually, you know, mine is a wooden spoon. Nice, yeah. Because it's not really, it's not about it being a weapon, but it's a nice, solid, comforting thing. A wooden spoon is a very comforting thing unless you're using it to spank someone with it. Or either of us could argue for a pair of boots, a pair of sensible boots. Oh, Doc Marston's, yeah.

It might be that the very deep core of my being is a pair of boots and a spoon. That sounds about right, to be honest. I'm not sure what that says about me. Beekeepers francing. Bees. Bees. Beekeepers, big gorillas, witches. What do they have in common?

They go wherever they like, Joanna. What else do you reckon fits under that category? I know it's a fun experiment we've kind of done before. High veers, clipboards. Clipboard, yeah, yeah. Looking to a lot of places holding a clipboard and bustling. Yeah, cleaner, I suppose, could go in where they wanted. If you're pushing a cleaning trolley or indeed a trolley with tea and coffee on it.

Yeah, tray of tea. Yeah, yeah. Some mugs. Who else? Like, what's a recognisable profession that could go where they wanted? I mean, police being the obvious one. Well, no, because they get noticed too much. You don't let a policeman stroll by without going,

oh, what's the matter? Oh, yeah, good point. You need this sort of combination of being able to fade in the background or being able to take up all the space. It's sort of both. I mean, I really enjoy beekeepers as an example. Yeah, you're not going to fucking stop a beekeeper walking, are you? Clearly you need to be here and I'm not going to argue.

There must be bees. Yeah. There must be bees spinoff ban from They Might Be Giants. There is a lovely little bit. This will be the second time in a couple of weeks that I've thought of something from this book on the podcast. I remember I said a couple of weeks ago, there was the horrible feeling of writing and they're not writing back

and it feels like the walls dissolved in a game of squash and it makes you wrong. Another thing from this book, there is a character who's a lawyer who is giving a presentation on how to make lawyers more popular. And one of the examples is people often sort of in an emergency will shout, is there a doctor present? But they very rarely do this in legal emergencies. You need to listen out for them and then run in and help. Example, if you hear two neighbors arguing about a tree that's grown up halfway

between their properties and they're deciding who should get the fruit, you can run in and go, hello, hello, I can help, I'm a lawyer. Eventually it will be commonplace for everyone to shout, is there a lawyer present? Oh, can you remember the title of the book? I can, I don't know why it's on my brain. It is aimed at teenagers set in Australia, it's called Finding Cassie Crazy and it's all told in letters between teenagers and emails and things.

This is a background site gag because it's the daughter of one of these lawyers is sort of writing a letter and telling someone what she can overhear her dad explaining. Sorry, say that title one more time. So yeah, so we've had beekeepers, oh, we're getting a bit purple post it Francine. Fagely purple post it, vagely. The whole thing with Mag, it's a very self aware purple post it, like perhaps it's making fun of it. Magra thinking she should run away and trying to put the date off

for several nights playing hard to get and all this stuff and how stupid it is. And just like she feels she shouldn't. She's not sure why because it's been subconsciously battered into us through decades of media as well. But yes, she shouldn't show her eagerness, that whole thing is right. Well, there's so much lovely stuff about how nanny August basically had lovely time, been married a lot, did a lot of things when she was a teenager. When you have the lovely bit where granny and nanny kind of fall out,

nanny calls her a bit of a hoidon and talks about disgusting the things people used to call you. Because they come they're so different in this. But at no point is nanny ever shamed for this apart from granny using it because she doesn't want to say what's actually wrong. Yeah, yeah. The books never shame her and like Pratchett never shames her. She's a character who's had a lovely time and even comes in handy later in the book when she's got thighs with a grip that could crack a walnut.

Oi oi. Look, nanny never played hard to get really. Yeah, so Magrat's kind of trying to do the whole, oh no, I'm sorry, washing my hair. Oh, we're very busy in the evenings and you're reading it with this like, oh, she's going to fuck it thing. And then just bear it. It's like afternoon.

Okay, afternoon. We'll meet in the afternoon by the pond. Okay, bye. I was like, oh, thank God. But yeah, it is so cringy. It's like, oh, God, do you remember all the fucking teen magazines and the, you know, don't text back till the third day? Oh, God, I hate all that stuff.

The amount of misery this must have caused so many young men and women and older men and women probably, like the whole, oh, you don't want to seem too keen. Why the fuck not? I love it when people seem keen. If people, if men ever played hard to get with me, they lost my interest immediately because frankly, I like being adored openly.

And that'll get you very far. Also, I've got a very, very short attention span. Yeah, isn't it? I even still do it with friends sometime, especially when it's sometime I'm, someone I'm like not good friends with, like not, I will quite, I'm staring at my phone so much that if someone texts me, I have read it right away, but I'll still wait five minutes to respond so I don't look too eager.

I do it on, I do it on our podcast, Twitter account. I don't write something as soon as the tweet comes in, even if I'm on Twitter at the time, because I don't want to look eager. I know I value our friendship so much, partly because I really can text back immediately because let's not pretend we're not holding our phones at all times. Yeah, I will never not text back like right away. But so often, yeah, I forget to text someone back at all

because I've not wanted to text back right away. Or like emails, I'm bad at responding to emails for the same reason. And it's so stupid. It is. A sweet version of that though, is sometimes I forget to text Jack back because I like having the little preview text from him saying, I love you at the top of my phone. Okay, that's disgusting.

Isn't it? I mean, adorable. Sorry, not disgusting too. I mean, there is the other side to that, and this is just to make it really purple post it. Obviously, this isn't the case in this book, but there is also a thing of women, rather than out and out saying no,

saying no, sorry, I'm busy, I'm washing my hair because men do not take rejection well. That is a good point. And this way that the fool doesn't take the hint, Steamroller's hair, and it's good that he doesn't take the hint. Any Steamroller's hair could also be a really awful thing if it wasn't two characters that actually really liked each other. Yeah, I mean, generously one could assume that

because the fool is very perceptive of how people are, could see that she was very interested and was, had just misunderstood the whole, like, oh, she's very busy. Let's try and find something that works. Because there is the, as much as I really hate this hard to get thing, and I do, and I think it's very silly,

there is the flip side to it, where a woman has lied about being busy, so she hasn't had to out and out reject someone, and if someone would respond like the fool, by just saying, right, this time instead, then, and it puts someone in uncomfortable position. But the two tie together, don't they? Because a lot of men kind of keep that persistence up,

because they've been told that the woman will play hard to get. And like, it's not always malicious. You get a young man who has been told his whole life that, you know, a woman will say no three times before you, like, be persistent, and who's seen that through movies and TV. And like, it's a lesson they have to learn the same way that we did.

And it's shit for everybody. It is very shit for everyone. It makes rejection harsher, and it makes being the person rejecting harsher, and it makes being two people who actually like each other harder. It's a nightmare. There is a very sweet moment in the next section

that we'll talk about, where this comes to its logical conclusion. But yeah, purple post-its, yeah, purple post-its on all sides there. Yeah. Luckily, I have a multi-pack. Okay, cool. So, oh, next one's fine as well. Granny cracks. I just thought this was the first beautiful example

of how powerful Granny is and how much she is restraining herself throughout most of these books at all time. She's restraining herself from doing something she's very capable of, which is having a bit of a fit and making the wheels fall off a cart half a mile away. Yeah.

She is incredibly powerful, which, and as we were talking about, you know, the kind of the most powerful magic is the magic you don't do, and the fact... Until suddenly, you need to do some very powerful magic. Yeah, and she didn't need to, and that was like a little breaking of that facade. And it was lucky she had Nanny and Margaret there,

and it's kind of showing the value of having these... It's true, this coven, yeah. And showing off Granny's power and kind of highlighting the restraint all in this one little vaguely amusing section while Nanny's trying to get out of a bush. Like, again, very good. Very fragile.

Which was like one of my big, like, unifying theory of the witch's arc is that Nanny is actually the stronger witch. And the fact that while Granny is losing her shit to that extent, Nanny is able to restrain her and slap her feeds into this theory, and we'll come back to this theory throughout.

Ooh, okay. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah. I like it. I like it already. I want to hear more, but we'll get back to it later when it's not going to be all spoilery. Yeah, and actually one of my favourite lines comes in this section as well,

where Granny breaks and Nanny says to Margaret, the thing is, as you progress in the craft, you'll learn there is another rule. Esme's abated all her life. What's that? When you break rules, break them good and hard. Oh, yes. And I do think that's really good.

And yeah, so the last thing I want to talk about, and we started talking about this last week, but I think the best example of it is in this section, and this is the whole idea of the power of words. Yes. And this is the fool still kind of coaching the due conduct just on what to do to get away with the evil shit they're doing,

basically, and he's saying it's all in how you describe it. Yeah. Rather than saying they're chopping down trees, they're embarking on a far-reaching and ambitious plan to expand the agricultural industry, provide long-term employment in the sawmills, open new land for development, and reduce the scope for banditry.

I hate this so much, but it also really fascinates me. Like, I love the order of the power of words to change things, and words to change history. Yeah. Because obviously this is where they decide what they need is a play that shows them in a good life, and they basically want a PR puff piece.

Yeah. And there's a lot of examples of that in real life, most famously through Shakespeare, which I'm sure is what Patrick was getting at. I mean, the way he portrayed various monarchs is like Richard the Third. Richard the Third is the amazing example. How they went down in history, yeah.

Yeah, because he's always now remembered as this hunchbacked evil dude. I went to the Richard the Third Museum in Leicester. Cool. Like, where they found his body under the car park and stuff. And it's really fascinating. Like, there's a whole Richard the Third Society. I love how everyone has a society.

The history of him is very fascinating, and so much of what is believed about him is heavy, nasty PR. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because it's highlighting two things, like quite an important one, which is changing history, and then the frivolous, but very damaging PR thing, which is just so humdrum and low-level infuriating

that you forget how damaging it actually is to the whole world. And insidious. It's everywhere. Yeah, that's the word, yeah. Like, I'm very good at it, which is something that annoys me greatly. This PR bullshit. Like, I have done it for money, and I'm ashamed, but...

Yeah, you are particularly good at putting spin on things. Yeah, I try not to now, for moral reasons, but, you know, riders got to eat. Yeah, now I'm completely with you on the PR bullshit, and it's nice because it's really interrogated here, which I also found interesting because I had to, and this is partly because of the age I am, had to double check what this was referencing

with the jukes going on to a little bit of a mad moment, and he's talking about it was self-defense, and he slipped on his tail. I have no recollection of it at this time. And I was like, I knew that's a famous thing, and I know which I'm hearing it mentally in an American accent, but I couldn't... And it's from the Watergate scandal.

But because I'm 27, did not automatically reference a quote from the Watergate scandal. I think I must have listened to something about it recently because I knew that one, and, like, there are two famous president quotes in my head, which is that one, and I did not have... Sexual relations with that woman. Sexual relations with that woman, yeah.

Yeah, that's the Bill Clinton one, and that one I remember because... So the thing is, like, it's not that I don't know about Watergate and what happened, and that it was not a scandal about fucking water. Stop putting gate on the end of things to say it's a scandal. That's an outrage. Jack could start a society about that one outrage.

That's an outrage I picked up from your husband. Gate gate. Gate gate. We called it when you both got angry at the same time. But I understand that I get the... I didn't have sexual relationship with that woman quote because it was still around in the cultural zeitgeist as I was younger.

Whereas, which is the same thing with this, that I have no recollection at this time would have still been very much in the cultural zeitgeist when this was written, but now another 30 years later, it's somewhat fallen out of it. And so I like spotting references like that that now do feel not dated

because it's still a very well-known thing, and I think there's probably a lot of listeners to this who think I'm a bit dumb and young now. Dan, those are not American. Not American. We've got our own horrible politicians. Thank you so very much. Yes, but I thought it was interesting to spot the reference

to the Watergate scandal in a section about the power of words in PR. Yeah, for sure. A good example of when it actually failed in the long term. Yes, because that out and out denial was the only defense really presented, and it was nowhere near enough. Once again, I'm going to encourage everybody to listen to the You're Wrong About podcast,

which kind of goes into the subject in depth in almost every episode. Yeah, I started following the host of it on Twitter, although I haven't listened to it yet. Yeah, because you lent me to one of her tweets. Oh, I love her, but I then saw her tweeting that they'd done an episode on Y2K, so I definitely need to listen to that

because I love the whole... That's not the one I'd say to start with, but actually, if you love Y2K already, then do, and also, I have another series to recommend you that's entirely about Y2K. Okay, cool, but I'll say don't, because giant, giant, giant podcast calls. Okay, but obviously, I will send out.

I want to listen to all of you by Friday, thank you. Anyway, so, yeah, that kind of... I don't really have much more to say about the world's can change the world thing about the fact that they can. It fascinates me, and it's why I want to be a writer. No, it's why I am a writer. I'm just not getting paid for it.

I'm not that Francine. I'm not going to pay for anything. Do you have any obscure references for me? I do. I didn't write it in the notes today, but I do have it in my own notes. On the... When Grebo is massacring that room, basically.

Oh, there's some references to paintings of old kings and queens. Yeah, and I don't think I actually... Fuck, did I even put my... Yes, here it is. He was sharpening his claws on King Maroon, who met a terrible fate footnote. Involving a red hot poker, a privy, 10 pounds of live eels,

a three-mile stretch of frozen river, a butt of wine, a couple of tulip bulbs, a number of poisoned eardrops, an oyster, and a large man with a mallet. King Maroon did not make friends easily. Clearly. And now that's a reference to several things. I was going to say... Red hot poker.

Edward II rumoured to have been killed by one of them up the bummel. Eels. Up inside you. Henry I, who was said by a biographer to have died from a surfeit of lampreys. Ooh. Butt of wine, George Plantagenet,

first Duke of Clarence, according to one of Shakespeare's plays, certainly. Poison eardrops, Shakespeare again. Hamlet's father, I'm guessing. Ah, yes. Referring to. Yep. Hewlett bulbs, I couldn't find any real-life examples, but I know they are poisonous, so it's possibly...

Yeah, it's probably a Rasputin. Yeah. Oysters, ditto. Vibrio volnificus is the disease you get from roisters, particularly unpleasant causes things like sepsis and blistering skin lesions. And people wonder why I don't like eating oysters. Quite.

And the river, I'm guessing, is Rasputin. And the whole thing, I'm guessing, is a bit Rasputin. And then the mallet, I think, might just be in their comic effect. It is one of the nice, practical things of thing, thing, thing, thing, mallet. Yes. Yes, as we shall henceforth call this writing technique. What, thing, thing, thing, thing, mallet? Yeah.

That was an excellent obscure reference for Neil Francie. Thank you very much. Yeah, I think that's basically... I think that's pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. You won't play us out. I will do it.

So that was part two of our discussion of Weird Sisters. We will be back next week with part three, which starting in the Corgi paperback top of page 157, with a line, I still reckon you were up to something, said Granny Weatherwaps, which reminds me that one thing I forgot to really mention is that Granny gets... And this goes into my unified theory of Nanny being more powerful than Granny.

Granny gets her spell done because Nanny has arranged for all the cock-rolls to be kept quiet for just a little bit longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not more powerful so much as... Wilyer. Are we talking straight-up magical power or how you get shit done? Because... Straight-up magical power,

I'm going to say is the one I'm interested in because I would just straight-up agree with you that Nanny's got more influence. Fair enough. Well, we'll come back to this. Yeah. So anyway, yeah. So section three starts with... I still reckon you're up to something,

said Granny Weatherwaps, and takes us through to the end of the book, funnily enough. And in the meantime, dear listener, you can follow us on Instagram, at The True Shall Make You Freight, on Twitter, at Make You Freight Pod, Facebook, at The True Shall Make You Freight. You can email us,

TheTruthShallMakeYouFreightpod, at gmail.com, send us your thoughts, queries, castles and snacks. Anything we've talked about that you're interested in is probably linked to the show notes, or tweet us and tell us if we're wrong. We probably were. And until next time, dear listener... Don't let us detain you.

Yeah. That was chewy, then. Now, dear listeners, you can finally enjoy the doorbell. I'm pretty sure we left at least one in. I meant to text him and say, don't ring the doorbell. The eternal doorbell.