The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 28: Guards! Guards! Pt.3 (Low Expectangents)

Episode Date: July 20, 2020

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan-Young and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Guards! Guards!”Corruption! Coronation! Dragon! More dragon! Flames! The philosophical deconstruction of good and evil?Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail] to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:@hammard_1987 (Twitter user doing the Pratchett Word Cup polls)Pratchett's Women by Tansy Rayner RobertsLembasNature on Trial: The Case of the Rooster That Laid an EggMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

Before we start again, have you seen the video of Henry Cavill building a gaming computer? I have not. Is it adorable? I'm just saying it turns out there is actually still a lingering thread of my heterosexuality in existence. Practical World Cup quarterfinals. Quarterfinals, baby. So let's have a look. Did you already... I've already baited. You did, okay. Using the podcast Twitter account.

Oh, what's their name? At Hamard1987, there they are. Right, Good Omens versus Small Gods, which is a broad versus Night Watch. I love which is a broad, but it's got to be Night Watch, isn't it? Yeah, I think everyone was right. I'm fair on which is a broad. Night Watch is very much going to win. Truth versus going postal.

You have to vote the truth because I've been tweeting out all of our listeners trying to get our namesake to win. Obviously, I will vote the truth. But yeah, as I suspected, going postal is winning. I know, I'm not happy about it. So by the time this goes out, I think the final will have already happened. And I don't think the truth is going to get past the quarterfinal, but I'm upset that we can get our namesake that bit further.

Well, whichever way it goes, it's going to be less depressing than the time we recorded just before the election. At least none of the options is Boris Johnson. Put it that way. Plutty stupid Johnson. Men at Arms versus Hogfather at Men at Arms. Obviously. Although Hogfather is very good. It is very good.

I just really like Men at Arms. Really like Men at Arms, yeah. Yeah, good Omen, small gods. Mmm, good Omen. That one is tight. That one is tight, yeah. That's, I kind of, I do love small gods and a bit of, you know, interrogating the human condition and its relationship to faith, but it would be really nice if one discworld did make it through.

One non-discworld even. So be the psychic octopus we get every World Cup. Who do you think's going to win? Oh, it's going to be Night Watch, isn't it? Yeah, it's going to be Night Watch, all right. I would like our listeners. That's a lovely octopus impression. Yeah, so I would like our listeners to know that I'm very into this right now.

I've just grown six extra arms. If I remember, I'll turn you into a GIF. Darling, I got better. Help, I'm being compressed. It's a year since we started making this. Is it? It's not a year since we started releasing it because we didn't start releasing it until October because we recorded the colour of magic and then my life went wrong.

But it is a year since we started working on it. Good grief. What have we learned in the year? We've learned very little, unfortunately. No, but the sound quality is better than it was on the early episodes. Yeah, it's still not great. But structure. Hey, we didn't build this blanket fort for nothing.

So without too much further ado. Do you want to make a podcast? Let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to the Two Shall Make You Frights, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book in Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld series one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan Young. I'm Francine Carroll.

Why did you give him his title this time? I don't know. Not that he doesn't deserve it. It's just suddenly you've gained an extra inch of respect for the great man. We did the interview the other day and now I'm thinking about I'm a cert area bit more. Oh, that's true. Yeah, listen, as you get bonus content next week and good bonus content, not just us sitting down and going, go right then, run out.

I'm Joanna Hagan Young. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part three of our discussion of Guards, Guards. Guards, Guards. The eighth Discworld novel. This is a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book we're on. Guards, Guards.

But we will avoid spoiling major future events in the Discworld series and we are saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld book, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. Francine, would you like to tell me what happened last time in Guards, Guards? Guards, Guards. Um, I'm pretty busy on. Aunt Maupork has a case of the dragons and the traditional cure is a hero.

Unfortunately, the perdition isn't willing to give up half the non-existent kingdom and the hand of a non-existent daughter. So the cream of the barbarian crop aren't interested. The dragon continues its reign of moderate terror, flaming the watch house and vanishing again. The elucidated brethren start to fret about their reptilian charge, but it's too late to turn back. And the brethren's nominated hero takes up arms to slay the dragon.

After a remarkably tidy fight, a newly dragon-less and brethren-less Aunt Maupork crowns its new king and has an unfortunate fling with bunting before it becomes clear that the monster's disappearance wasn't as permanent as they'd hoped. Exactly. Now, see, I think I've got a bit confused about the order of when the brethren got flamed, but I didn't go back in tech, so. That's absolutely fine.

My summary for last week was very confusing because it was a bit action-packed. Yeah. So this time, on Guards, Guards, we begin with the lads from the watch on the Temple of Small God's Roof awaiting some dragon fire. They realise they may have in fact found the dragon because they're sitting on it. The dragon unfolds, scaring the shit out of them, as below in the city the coronation continues.

A fired vimes plans on fury as Errol eats everything, and distant cheering turns to screams. A self-satisfied dragon basks in the remains of the collapsed coronation as a small child celebrates and the crowd cries off. Nice iteration. Mate, it was on a roll. It went very quickly. Vimes and Sibyl watch as the dragon claims the crown and the city and wants.

The citizens of Ancmoorpork continue to celebrate, even if they're unsure what they're celebrating. At the newly renovated palace, the civic leaders are fed well by a nervous once, who informs them that some sacrifices must be made. We get an insight into the link between once and the dragon. The palace guard asks what's left of the watch to share the news that the dragon has a very, very specific diet. Vimes takes a poorly Errol to everyone's favourite dragon breeder, Sibyl.

Things take an awkward turn when Vimes walks away. Colon almost starts a protest before being rudely awakened by the dragon. The plucky band of watchmen agree on a plan of archery, vulnerable and a slim chance. Vimes confronts Supreme Grandmaster Wants, who attempts to shift the blame onto Vettinari for his dastardly dragon summoning. Vimes is having none of it and is swiftly incarcerated with the ex-rawler of the city. Lady Sibyl is summoned to the palace to provide dinner for the dragon

as Vimes enjoys a light lunch with Vettinari in a remarkably comfortable prison cell. Colon tests his archery skills as Vimes starts tenaciously chipping at the cell door. The librarian arrives to hurry along Vimes' escape. Vimes learns about the virginal conditions of the dragon's rule and attempts a feat of heroism. Colon shoots and misses. The dragon flames and doesn't. Vimes almost rescues Sibyl as the dragon arrives for dinner

and we learn that the watchmen have miraculously survived the dragon's flame. Vettinari lets himself out of prison, having preserved Vimes' wild view. Sibyl's dragon kennels explode as Errol takes the sky to face the dragon. As Errol flies away, the king dragon crashes. Carrot arrests the downed dragon, but as Errol returns with amorous intent, the queen dragon takes off again. Vimes makes it to the palace as Vettinari faces off against a running once. Carrot takes through the book, far too literally,

and once meets his end with murder by metaphor. Back in his place, ruling the city, Vettinari rewards Vimes in the watch. Vimes visits Sibyl for dinner and comes to a conclusion. Carrot and the lads head to the pub and we end on the turtle. I like it. That was a very good summary. Thank you. I had fun with alliteration. I don't know why, but I felt very alliterative when I wrote this yesterday. Some days just take you that way, don't they?

Yeah, I'm the same. It's a mood that I'm not sure everybody relates to, but probably a lot of our listeners do. I like to think you're an alliterative bunch, as ever you're going to meet our darling little listeners on there. Dear little legs. Helicopter and linecloth watch for this book, Dragons Count as Helicopters, so painted.

Hepticopters. Oh, I forgot to dip. You knew I would. You did change it in the notes. Are we really going to call Errol a Hepticopter, even though he's clearly a jet engine? We have one Hepticopter and one jet engine. Fine. Errol can be a jet engine.

Neither of them were wearing loincloths. No, as far as we know. If they were, Terry Pratt did not feel it necessary to say so. He did not describe the loincloth. Shall I go first with a quote then? Yeah, yours is first. Quite a way first. That's right near the beginning.

Well, I consider reading out basically the entire back end of the book, and I'm probably going to when we get to that. Honestly, that would be fine if that wasn't a copyright thing. I'd be happy just to meet myself and let you read me a book today. Storytime. We need to get you back doing voiceovers. Yeah, if anyone wants to hire me, I'll buy a better mic. I can afford thicker blankets, better blankets, some kind of scaffolding.

As opposed to a laundry error in a very precariously balanced chair that nearly collapsed your last recording. Sorry, quote. This is from fairly early on when they're deciding whether or not to protest the dragon. I know it's when the dragon's flying towards the coronation. It's earlier than I thought. The dragon flew slowly, only a few feet above the ground, wings sculling gracefully through the air.

The flags that crisscrossed the street were caught up and snapped like so much cobweb, piling up on the creature's spine plates and flapping back along the length of its tail. It flew with head and neck fully extended, as if the great body was being towed like a barge. The people on the street yelled and fought one another for the safety of doorways, and it paid them no attention. It should have come roaring, but the only sounds were the creaking of wings and the snapping of banners.

It should have come roaring, not like this, not slowly and deliberately, giving terror time to mature. It should have come threatening, not promising. It should have come roaring, not flying gently to the accompaniment of the zip and zing of merry bunting. Isn't that good? It is good, yes. I would have picked that if you hadn't.

That's such a good... I really like the contrast. Well, I like the change in... And I'll talk a bit more about the dragon later, but I like the change in now the dragon is on its own agenda and not someone else's. It is intelligent enough to deliberately terrify. Also, I like bunting getting fucked up, because you have my little bunting rant last week.

That applies to our personal preferences. Yeah, just the idea of the silent, destructive menace from the skies is somehow more intimidating. I also like the way it uses the repeat in there, where it repeats that it should have come roaring over and over again, because it's almost like someone who can't quite process something, so they're just sort of saying the same thing over and over again, because they're so terrified.

And it's just... It's really beautiful. It's almost poetic. Well then, Terry practiced very nice dragonfly. You know what? I think he's quite a good writer. Yeah. Yeah, I think you wouldn't be entirely alone in that opinion. Yeah, no. You're right. Don't mind a bit, Terry. Sorry, what's your quote, Francine? I'm not bloody well-going to have it, to understand.

If I'm shouted, shaking the ape back and forth. Oop, the librarian pointed out patiently. What? Oh, sorry. Bime's lowered the ape who wisely didn't make an issue of it, because a man angry enough to lift 300 pounds of orangutan without noticing it is a man with too much on his mind. That's a marvellous moment. Anyway, characters. Yeah.

This isn't a major character, but it makes me so happy. Like, the coronation has just been completely trashed. There's a massive, satisfied dragon sitting around. He's just sort of about to bugger off to the palace and everyone's running and screaming and scared. And by Vime's side, a small child waved a flag hesitantly and shouted, hurrah. And the child just stands there chatting to Vime's,

going, oh, my auntie said if I was naughty, she put me on the roof and called the dragon. My auntie says it eats you all up, starting with the legs. And there's another moment a little bit later on where the child sort of goes, can I wave my flag at owl? And Vime says, yeah, fine, whatever. And the child's like, hurrah. But it's hurrah with no exclamation point.

It's a very nonchalant hurrah. Yeah. I know I am here. I am meant to wave a flag and say hurrah. Yeah. Yes, I know. Hurrah. It is exactly what I can see my little baby nephew doing. He would also be very excited about getting eaten by a dragon.

Now, we don't actually meet the Duke of Sto-Hellet, so I imagine you've put him there because you're terribly clever that you noticed the reference. Yes, I just want everyone to know how clever I am. And now it made me smile. I like, like I said, that he's nodding back to his previous books. It's a civil offering to help Vime's get a new job. And he's like, oh, the Duke of Sto-Hellet's looking for a girl.

Captain, I'll write you a letter. You'll like them. They're a very nice young couple. Yeah. And this is obviously Mort, Duke of Sto-Hellet, and his new wife, Isabel. Yay. They are indeed a lovely young couple.

So on to one of the bigger ones. We haven't really talked about wants a lot since you got introduced in the first section. We haven't, because there wasn't really any way to do so without doing a spoiler. Spoiler. Yeah. So now we know that he's the one that's been summoning the dragon,

and then the dragon used him to get back. On page 221 in my copy, as he's serving lunch to the civic leaders, he, there's a line, his voice sounded one dribble away from madness. And he really reminds me of the Duke from Weird Sisters. It's the same thing of like, he is desperately clinging to this cold sanity in what is incredibly ridiculous, and he is so close to losing it.

Yeah. He effectively asked the leader of the Assassin's Guild to kill him. Yeah. Because he's absolutely stuck in this situation, but he goes full politician. Yes. It's, it's like when, when you've had like a shit, shit day or wheat or whatever,

and you've just got to go to work and like, you just have to keep going through it. Overlay of, I'm fine, I'm fine. I can do this. I can do this for a couple of hours, except like dragon. Yeah. Except there is literally a dragon, and it's, he keeps talking and he's sort of a,

yes, this will be fine and we'll do this like this. And of course, you'll contribute to the hoard and it'll be a civic levy tax. And you guys will be the, you'll be the privy councillors and you'll be richly rewarded. And of course, there is the matter of the king's diet. Yes. And you only ever refer to the dragon as the king.

There's a really good line. The head assassin said later, he'd looked into the eyes of many men who obviously were very near death, but he never looked into eyes that were so clearly and unmistakably looking back at him from the slopes of hell. And it's this way that once has already resigned himself to absolute misery and hell.

Yeah. And he is still just very brittily saying, yes, no, and of course, you know, you're all the privy council now. And yes, of course, we will have to sacrifice a virgin, but it's fine, you know, in the grandest time the grandest old tradition of healthy ties, which leads me very nicely to the dragon,

who again, we haven't really talked about as a character because it's just been this anonymous threat for the last two sections. And it gets to be an actual character here. The opinions. Speaking. Yeah. And just as once is very determinedly trying to make

virgin sacrifice seem very normal to this. Yeah, doing his PR job. Yeah, the dragon is appalled that this is so easy. Yeah. Yeah, like the dragon wants to, not wants to, but thinks it would be the correct thing if he had to come in and be, you know, enforced tyranny rather than spin it nicely.

Exactly. And he's so appalled that once has basically gone, yeah, no, I can make it. Think it's all their idea. He's the line where he says, there'll be no mighty warrior sent to kill me. It thought almost plaintively. Yeah.

It doesn't know how it's meant to go. Yeah. And it is. It's this interruption to narrative causality that is what practically does so well when he's doing these sorts of parodies. But in this situation, it forces the dragon to then interrogate humanity,

which I don't think it would have had to do much before because of what its life is. And he's furious at once. He says, you've got the effrontery to be squeamish. We're cruel. We're meant to be cruel and heartless and terrible. But it's such a beautiful line. We never burned and tortured and ripped one another apart

and called it morality. Yeah. Like, this is a comedy fantasy parody book. That line alone. One last little silly character moment before I go on to revisiting some of our big ones. Vimes goes to Sibbles, know the end of the books and meets these ladies

because they were far too untidy to be mere women. No ordinary woman would have dreamed of looking so scruffy. And it's the thing practically goes back to a lot with the poshos of the can afford things that last and will quite happily stomp around in their grandparents Wellington boots. Their silk scarves, old tweed coats

and granddad's riding boots. And there's something about them that really makes me giggle because there was this woman back, like I talked a lot about the fact that the dragon people are a lot like the horsey people I used to know. And there was this one amazing woman that used to come to the races.

She was part of our like boners syndicate for that one horse that my parents had chairs in. And her name was John. She only answered John. She was about five foot tall, dressed exactly like this at all times, mad as a box of frogs, ridiculously posh.

Like Barry, I would have been like eight at the time and she'd always take the time to, like we bought big fans for one of the race days at Brighton because we thought, oh, we're going to be in the owners enclosure. Let's be ladies with fans. And she would quite happily in the middle of the owners enclosure

at Brighton Racecourse, get into a sword fight with our fans and stuff. It's absolutely just like these women. So it really did make me smile because it gave me a proper nostalgia. Vimes. Yeah, I wanted to keep doing this, checking back in with the big characters.

Vimes and his anger, the big sort of theme that we're checking in on. And there is an amazing moment where he realizes that his job, he's dealing with the fact that he once effectively fired him. And he's facing off against once before he gets put in prison.

He's insisting, well, you can't take my job. You can't give me my job back. You couldn't have taken my job because I'm an officer of the law and it's the law I uphold above all else. And it's a theme that's more there in things that are said than things that are done because like we talked last week

about the fact that actually, Vimes encourages some pretty bad policing. But it becomes a theme as we go through the books. Like Vimes really upholds the law and it means so much to him. And he's appalled by it. He's furious because there is no law when the ruler of the city is a dragon.

And he gets his anger again as well later on when he thinks that, when the distillery that the watch were on has been blown up and he thinks that they've died. And he's so furious because he just thinks, well, that wasn't worth it. Yeah. They've died for nothing.

They earned $30 a month. His anger is such an almost a superpower for him. And the fact that he is so furious about that, but he keeps going and he's still trying to rescue Sibyl even as he's, and it is, it's fury and anger. He's not sad about the fact that these people have died as much as he is absolutely furious that they've died for no reason.

Yeah. I just feel like he's never going to accept it being fair or noble when it's one of his men or women eventually who dies. Yeah. I think part of what makes him, him is that he is always going to rage against. The machine. The machine, yeah.

Yeah. I get the, oh, I need $30 a month thing as well, but like, yeah, I feel like whatever it was, he would have been angry. That's just how he managed to word it in his head at the time. I'm really just fascinated by how his like explosive frustration almost propels him through a story. Yeah. And he sees when he eventually comes out

with hysterical laughter when the dragon goes into the palace. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, oh, yeah, fuck it. Why not crown a fucking dragon? Great. We've already got the bunting out. Fucking great. Yeah. Yeah. I have reacted like that to things a lot, especially in the last week,

but it's when he sees that the poster basically saying that a high-born virgin has to be fed to the dragon. Yeah. And his responses in my city. Yeah. Yeah, again. He still has this possessiveness over in Warpork. Yeah. Which serves him well.

It does, it does. But at the moment is not great because he's impotent at that moment. From Vimes That's Run to Sibyl. And again, another theme I want to keep checking in on, which is how her fatness is treated. Yeah. And this actually kind of links in with how the dragon is treated as well.

Okay. There was, I've quoted this book before, but I think this one is particularly relevant. And this is the Tanzi Reina Roberts book. Practices really read this. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, like I said, on the podcast before, it's a series of essays about Pratchett's female characters.

And this is on Sibyl Rankin. Guards Guards, the first book featuring the City Watch, is pretty light when it comes to female characters. The most central woman in the whole story is Sibyl Rankin, dragon expert. She emerges as a fascinating, fully realized and complicated female character, despite every attempt of the narrative. Each time she appears, she has to wade through a sea of fat jokes, posh lady jokes, lonely spinster jokes,

and in some cases, all three at once. More than once, she is described vividly as something monstrous or other than human, including scenes from the point of view of Sam. Yeah. Of the romantic interest, I think you can put it. Yes. There is obviously romantic interest. And there is when she, when they come to the doorstep to drag her out,

and admittedly she's just shoved a wig and some very strong perfume on in the dark and is wearing leather gauntlets. Yeah. But she's described as this monster, he genuinely thinks it's some kind of monster and makes this, you know, sign against devils. Yeah. And he's sort of having to remind himself, no, no, it's fine.

She is human. I mean, I love this scene because she's fucking badass and tries to go at them with a broadsword. Yeah. How is it described exactly? Hold on. What page is it? Two, five, one.

The thing was still there, bristling in with rage, reeking of something sickly and fermented, crowned with a skewed mass of curls still looming behind a quivering bosom. Harpies, they were called. What had it done with Lady Ramkin? That's not vines. No, that one's not vines.

That's just an example of the way she's literally described as monstrous. But I find the fatness interesting when you then apply it to the way the dragon is suddenly treated. When they find out it's a woman, then the Errol's interest is actually romantic. They stop interrogating the dragon as evil or not evil. Like the dragon itself has said to once, we are cruel.

We are. That's what we are as dragons. The moment it's a woman, it's like, oh, yeah. And it's already been arrested at this point. Yeah. And fucking love that Kara arrests the dragon. That's genius. But the moment it's a woman, oh, yeah,

let it fly off and have babies with little Errol. And Ramkin, you know, Nobby's slow on the uptake. And eventually she says, it's a girl. And Nobby says, but it's starting enormous. And then he looks at Sibyl. And then he goes, oh, I mean, yeah, fine figure of a dragon. Raised my flag.

And yeah, the hearty one, I don't know about that. Didn't set off my alarms in the same way because I don't know if that is connected to fat particularly. Yeah, it may not be fatness. It may be description in general. But I do think she has, I think the, that quote from the Tanzia Rainer Roberts essay has a point.

She is often described as not human. Yeah, yeah, as part of a trend, it's definitely worth noting on its own that didn't flag up for me like the other ones did. Yeah. If I hadn't been looking for it that particularly, especially because that, you know, it's the point of the scene is that part of the reason

she's monstrous is grabbing a wig in the dark and putting on this perfume. I think in that one, I just imagined myself getting dressed in the dark and coming out as a half paper. It doesn't take me getting dressed in the dark to come out as a half paper. At least she didn't have a dragon under her arm. What?

Cool. And I also, there's also like just talking, still on sibling fatness, the final moments of the book where she basically invites Vines over to sort of hit on him. Yeah. And love that she did that.

Love that journey for her. I might have watched a couple of episodes of Schitt's Creek. Yeah. And Vines sort of looks at her and the way, the way he thinks of her, like this is, if I thought a man had gone through this thought process. That was the other bit of the moment we go, oh, possible. It struck Vines that in her own special category,

she was quite beautiful. And this category of, this was the category of all the women in his entire life, whoever thought she was worth smiling at. Yeah. She couldn't do worse, but then he couldn't do better. I think here, this is this Pratchett writing what he imagines to be a purely grown-up practical romance.

And it's good. I don't know about good. Again, outside of the context of the trend of the descriptions, I would have taken it differently. Yeah. But when you look at the trend of the descriptions, because it goes on to a brilliant thing, Vines having been brung low by the city that is a woman,

he realizes that the woman was a city. And under the under siege, she did what Aunt Morphe would have always done, which was unbar the gates, let the conquerors in, and make them your own. Yeah. And then also the fact that it uses the here's look at you kid line is, I get that it's another one of those movie references,

but it's cringey. Yeah, I'm not sure really fit. It's so up. So in the last section, when he comes out with a dragon under his arm, and you have that whole Dirty Harry moment, it works and it's really Vines, but kid doesn't.

No. No, maybe if he'd been referring to, I don't know if I can anyone. If he'd been referring to, if there had been a baby goat somewhere in that, it would have made it work. Yeah. No, it's weird because.

Because I love the relationship between them. That's it. It's just such a weird calculated introduction to it when, when I really like how they interact. When you look at that moment, like not that much earlier, where he's dropped Errol off to her and walked away, and they're both sort of think,

where she goes back inside and he's thinking, oh, I'll look back and she'll be standing there. And, you know, that simmering attraction between them is already there. It doesn't need him being very practically. It's like, oh, she's a munter, but I like her anyway. One other note on Sibyl

that was nothing to do with fatness though, which is such a great moment. And this is when the dragon is kind of downed after its fight with Errol and Kara ends up arresting it. But everyone's going to attack it with swords and spears. They're really rare. And Sibyl is so compassionate. She doesn't want them to kill the dragon.

Like this. Yeah. And Vimes thought it was just about to eat you. And yeah, Vimes thought it was just about to eat her and she can still think like this. Perhaps that did give you the right to an opinion. And this is the thing. Vimes has high standards for the people he is around.

Yeah. And he knows. Low expectations. High standards. Low expectations. Low expectations, but very high standards. Low expectations. Like it.

And so this moment where he looks at Sibyl and sees the compassion in her and that's such a great thing about her character. I just really enjoyed that moment. Also just the very cute little moment near the beginning of the section where he's looking at the coronation and she turns, you know, every time we meet a dragon appears, it's almost like having a song.

Yeah, I like that. And this is what I love about Sibyl. He's her confidence, you know. She's into this guy and she does kind of, she flats with him and she goes for it. And again, the book doesn't let her just be brilliant and sexy and also fat. The book kind of adds some monstrosity

and some other people sniggering at it. And I think some of that is very much the time it's written. That, see that quote from that book and what you've just said, like the book doesn't let it like she is in the book. Like I don't quite get it. Like she's not, she's not an entity outside the book. Pratchett did write her. He wrote her to be this great character.

Like it's not her working against Pratchett here. No, no, no. I think what I mean is that Pratchett somehow just did a really good and really bad job at the same time. And it's almost like he wrote this really well-rounded character but then couldn't... Couldn't just let it be if it means to her. And the thing is you've got other fat characters

that sort of don't get this in. Like if you look at Nanny Ogg and I know we've only had her in Weird Sisters, but she's not really described as monstrous and she is described as bigger. I think every character gets the piss taken out of them. Yeah, it's possible. And I think with Sybil literally there was nothing to take the piss out apart from her looks.

Yeah. And that sucks because like it's not worth taking the piss out of. Yeah. That's saying if this is the character we're going to mark then that's the characteristic worth mocking like Bime's is anger and alcoholism or Nanny Ogg's happiness and alcoholism or... I think if this book was written...

I don't know when the Vicar of Dibley came out but like five years later, but to use the Vicar of... Vicar of Dibley is a fat woman in a leading role and her fatness is never brought up. And she is very, very much in control of her own sexuality. Yeah. I know I'm talking about... French did a lot for...

Oh, fuck. I loved all French. I know I'm... I mean... It's... I know it's a Richard Curtis sitcom and it ain't that deep but... But if you then look at how like Sybil gets treated in other books, I think even then the monstrousness of her fatness

goes away very quickly, which is why I point it up here. Yeah, I think Pratchett... While he does have a lot of clever subtle jokes in here, he also has a lot of blunt, bam, bam, reference joke, reference joke, which I feel like he drops in later books and just has the clever humor, like he has the silly word play, but he doesn't do the like, here's looking at you kid type reference.

Yeah, unless it's... Clever references and I think probably along with that, a lot of the more obviously objectification stuff disappears. Yeah, but I like pointing it up here because I know that it will be improved on and also because... I like pointing up when fatness is described as monstrous so we can all know not to do that ourselves. Yes, that should not be quietly accepted, quite right.

So, on to Vessenari and his intelligence. We mentioned this briefly in one of the other episodes, but it's really fascinating to read such an intelligent character because you know that means the author is that intelligent. And when Vessenari is in his prison cell, but has managed to make it so all the, you know, the bolts are on the inside and he can get out whenever he wants and what he's done is actually lock the terrifying world away.

And the fact that he's trained the rats and helped them unionise against the snakes and the scorpions and created this miniature city. And there's this great line of Vimes thinking again, he wondered what it was like in the patrician's mind, all cold and shiny, he thought all blue, steeled and icicles and little wheels clicking along like a huge clock.

And I just think reading how Vessenari is written and how clever he is makes me think of Terry Pratchett's mind like that. Yes, however, I feel like how Vessenari chose to spend his time in there doesn't quite line up with the like clean shiny clock thing, does it? It's like a, I feel like there's a little bit of another character will meet Leonard of Querm at some point. Yeah, I think the mad creativity within the shiny icicles.

But I think it is that when he's thinking that about Vessenari, it's more to do with the fact that he's built this cell a certain way. It's not about his playing more games with the rats. Yeah, that's just being 10 steps ahead of what could possibly happen at all times, yeah. I can barely think one step ahead. I'm usually about eight steps behind and also going in the wrong direction.

I tripped over my feet. Oh, again? Yes, we'll talk more about Vessenari in a bit. And Carrot, Carrot's kingliness. Oh, yes, Carrot and his kingliness. This is just, these are a couple of fun little references. So Carrot obviously has come to Ankh-Morpork with a very sharp sword that manages to

stop another sword very much in its tracks. So the trousers of time have a little bit of a moment. And the patrician sort of looks at it and says, hmm, and then leaves that there. And the air grows thick. Yes. And there's little moments, there's that little moment and another one later on where Carrot sort of says

all of these things that, you know, he's got a birthmark shaped like a crown and he's got the sword that he's had forever. And this will go, no, no, it can be anything like a king. That's not a kingly sword. It's like the crown and with sisters. Yeah. The actual magical object just looks like the essence

of that object, not like a filigree. Not like the magical sword that once had made for this king that he's built. Yeah, yeah. Not like bloody cring throwback. Fucking cring. Talking swords, no one likes them. I didn't mind cring.

I know, but you're wrong. Yeah, that's fair. We're only in one location. We're still just in Ankh-Morpork. Which is quite enough location for one dragon. Yep. But I love the citizenry of Ankh-Morpork I've put in here. Their mob mentality moment,

where they basically, they're all talking themselves into a dragon being king, being a really good idea. And immediately go to this sort of jingoism of like, well, you know, we can now burn the Clatchin' Ambassador if we can do whatever we like. We've got a dragon. And it is this absolute determination that everything is fine.

And also, let's be racist because we've got a dragon. Yeah, it's part of the, oh, let's take an opportunity to be bigoted small-minded bastards. I'm partly like, we're in this horrible situation, so we're going to change the narrative to make it not a horrible situation, or we can't deal with it. Yeah, like England and Brexit.

Yeah, yeah. Except we're all having a bit of a meltdown about that. I haven't got an energy to have them. I haven't got the energy to have a meltdown like that. I feel like we should be having a meltdown about that because we're about to be in the grips of a horrendous recession and a huge cost of living increase

as import starts becoming different. Yes, but also global pandemic. Yeah, exactly. So that's all going to be great. Yeah, so onto little bits we liked. Yeah. Dwarf bread made me smile. Dwarf cake.

Yeah, I was looking into twice-baked bread on the C-Shot. And I'm going to look into that properly for other books while we come back to Dwarf bread as a fun little concept, but it's funny. I like...

I'd like to say that I'm going to try and make some Dwarf bread for the podcast, but what I mean is sometimes my bread goes very well and could be used in battle. That happened when I accidentally put a tablespoon instead of a teaspoon of salt in my dough. Oh, yeah, that'll do. I didn't rise.

I was like, why didn't it rise? And Jack was like, the bread was delicious, but very salty. I was like, ah, there it is. But it feels like it's a bit of a piss-take of lembas bread from Lord of the Rings, which is like this tiny amazing thing that sustains them all day.

And in this case, it sustains them all day because they don't want to eat it. Yeah, I didn't get that. I loved that concept when I was reading the book, Lembas bread. I mean, it didn't make the collection. Well, I had to interact with Lord of the Rings a lot to weigh various copies of it.

So I had lembas bread on the bread. Osmosis. Yes, I absorbed the concept of lembas bread. We'll talk about that next week, listeners. Yes. So yeah, that made me smile. And then on the following page from the Dwarf Gate, I think this has come up on the podcast before,

the concept of nerd, which is when you're... Yeah, conerd. Yes. So it's not to confuse it with us yelling nerd at each other. The other side of sobriety from drunk, which is apparently what Vimes is all the time and why he drinks, but he can't get the levels right. Yeah, it's...

I don't know if this was like a particular reference to specific brain chemical things, but it's kind of reminiscent of various... Anxiety, depression, ADHD kind of things where you can't access the correct happy hormones and add a little bit of chemical help. There's a lot of people are more prone to alcoholism and things for that reason.

If you can't make your own serotonin, then store-bought is fine. Exactly. Unfortunately, not available at Angkor Pork. Name it the thing. Name it the thing in the thing. Yeah, no, it's... I know we like pointing that out sometimes,

so it's page 247. Once called for the guards. Guards. Guards. Guards. That's all I can say about that. But what's excellent is on the next page, there's all of these guards and just Vimes,

and they're looking at it going like, we can't. It's going to start swinging on Chandeliers any minute. He's going to grab... And it's a reference to that dedication right in the beginning. Oh, fuck, I forgot that. Well, he's dedicated the book to the Palace Guard,

whose job is to run in, attack the hero one at a time, and be slaughtered. And these guards are aware enough of narrative causalities to go... Yeah. This doesn't look like it'll end well for us. I liked what, of all things, Austin Powers did for that trope.

I have never seen an Austin Powers film all the way through. Oh, that's a shame because you'd hate it now. I'd have loved it when we were 17, and I'm never going to re-watch it now. I know things about things. But I absolutely loved it as a kid, and it has the evil henchman going in and getting slaughtered,

but then kind of cuts to the loving wife finding out about her husband's death. All she knew was he was some minimum wage security guard, and, oh, little Henry, your father's not coming home, and all of that. I do like when things play with tropes like that, especially when the trope involves like lots of people getting sort of casually slaughtered.

There's like, there's lots of silly things about things. Always a fun trip. Like Stormtroopers going home to tiny Stormtrooper families. And I know anyone who's a Star Wars fan who's listening, I know that's not how Stormtroopers work. It's fine. You don't need to...

But also it kind of is now, because what? Please don't tweet me about Star Wars twice. It's very, very important that you don't try and talk to us about Star Wars. I don't have the emotional bandwidth. I can't exaggerate how important this is. Another little bit I liked is...

We were talking about the patrician in prison and his trained rats. His intelligent rats, including his script. And he points out that they... It may be linked to thermic radiations from something near the Unseen University campus. Sure. And I partly like this,

because obviously it's cool that veterinary's done this, and because rats are cool and very intelligent, and I like rats. Listeners who have read further into the books and follow us on Twitter and have seen me get slightly stressed about the Pratchett woke up, will know that I have a favourite book

and this might be relevant. You ended up taking it a bit more personally than I did in the end, which surprised me. I really care about them. Any listeners who have no idea what I'm talking about, that's fine, I'll move on. But intelligent rats, very cool. Yeah, it's not a spoiler.

Intelligent rats come back. Yeah. Smart rats. The last little bit is right at the end, which is nice. It's Fibbler's anti-dragon cream, I think came up in section two. Is that the middle section?

Yes, genuine anti-dragon cream. Made by monks in an ancient valley up in the mountains. And obviously, not as some kind of cold, creamy, got any selling at a 500% markup, isn't it? It's Fibbler. However, not this time. Because up towards the hub, with the ram top mountains and freezing peaks

and lovely description that I'm not going to read all out of, a couple of yellow-robed monks are finishing the labelling of their books to CMOT Fibbler. No, Lobsang said one of them. One cannot help wondering what it is he does with this stuff. Oh, that does bring me to it. Also, I like that there's a character called Lobsang because we will experience that name again

in the role of Pratchett. I think it was also the monk's name in Good Omens. I think that's just yellow-robed monk name in Terry Pratchett's head. All yellow-robed monks are Lobsang now. That's probably problematic, isn't it? Oh, yeah, probably. Fuck.

Never mind. Sorry. Anyway. Everything's cancelled again. Yep. Talking points. Onto the bigger stuff, yeah. This is just a fun running theme through this section.

And this is the whole idea of million-to-one chances cropping up nine times out of 10. It's million-to-one chance, but it just might work. And this starts with, yeah, this colon saying that when you need the most, million-to-one chances always crop up. And he's planning this shot. And of course, they go into, like, okay, so just shooting at the dragon isn't really a million-to-one chance.

It's actually quite possible, but it just might work. That doesn't work. So he ends up standing on one leg with soot on his face, his tongue sticking out, singing, the hedgehog can never be barred at all. That's as much re-enactment of that as we're getting on the podcast. No more ukuleles, listeners.

How do you feel? I mean, as far as the audience know, I am actually standing on one leg, drawing a longbow with soot on my face, my tongue sticking out while singing. They don't know. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I took it down.

Yep. That's nothing to do with my sleep deprivation. That's just what's happening. Is it hallucinations or a bit? Am I hallucinating or just pleased to see? What? Yeah, I like the idea of them trying to work out exactly what it would take in a completely non-mathematical way,

but they've decided, yeah, I know this is it. This is exactly a million to one. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's some maths. Carrot tries to calculate the area of the dragon and then the area of the vulnerable spot. Yeah, but then from there it goes downhill.

Yeah. Well, yes, I'm not sure standing on one leg has much to do with mathematical probability. I'm guessing the vulnerable spot, obviously, is another smough thing, isn't it? And the lucky arrow, I think, barred in the hobbit. Yeah. Hits the vulnerable spot.

Yeah. But also, there's the double entendre of testicles. Vulnerables. Vulnerables, which is the only way I should refer to it. I don't often have to refer to testicles in my day-to-day life. Thank goodness. Yeah, unless I'm threatening someone. Threatening someone to kick them in the vulnerable

doesn't have as much clout as balls. Yeah. Also, it's very rare I'm threatening kicking. Normally, there's a knife. Anyway, I am a chef. I'm going to keep up appearances, darling. I can't let them know I'm actually very soft and probably wouldn't stab them.

I'm sorry, I don't think any of my colleagues listen to this. But, yeah, to have that million-to-one chance and not be a million-to-one chance and not coming through, and then the dragon flames it, and luckily, the chances of surviving that explosion were exactly a million-to-one. Yeah. And that's what saves them.

And, of course, eventually, Kolon's line to Vimes on the relationship between him and Sibyl, it's a million-to-one chance, but it just might work. Yeah, and it's almost like Kolon being a fairy godmother, then he's trying to give them a bit of that magic. It's really sweet. Kolon is surprisingly sweet, actually. He is, yeah.

I like Kolon. I do. I have a soft spot for him. They're also, when they're talking about Errol and the big dragon fighting, and Vimes doesn't know about their whole plan and just says, the chance of a dragon, the size of Errol, beating something that big or a million-to-one, and then there's this moment where they all pause

and eventually, and they all repeat a million-to-one, and then Kolon just very calmly says, but it just might work. Need to finish the price, need to finish the price. And they've found this little magic in it, and they've clung to it, and I think that's really lovely. It is. It makes me happy, so yeah.

I thought I'd do a positive talking point before we address the human condition. Oh, God. Shall we talk about some character motivations? Yeah. I just, the kind of opposite progressions of Vimes and once were quite interesting. So, at the start of the book,

Vimes' motivations aren't really anything. They are moment-to-moment almost. He's reacting to each thing as it goes along, and everything's horrible, to be honest, and just trying to survive each day, and get through, and not get his main killed, and everything like that. But then as the book progresses,

he starts realising that what he's trying to do is save the city, and he's doing detective work and sleuthing, and everything's becoming more organised in his mind, and eventually, I mean, it's not like him working everything out as what saves the city, but he did. He did it well, then Vimes. He gains control of the situations in as much as he can. That's a better way of putting it, yeah.

Whereas once, on the other hand, starts off with all these evil machination motivations, and organised, yes, doing Mr. Byrne's fingers on the other end of the camera. Well done, Joanna. And very gifable today. Sorry. Yeah, whereas once is slowly becoming more unravelled,

as it becomes obvious that the dragon's mind is quite a lot better than his, and by the end of it, he is, although he's coming off as quite organised and calm, moment to moment trying to survive, and then even after the dragon's gone, and he's in the palace, he's still... You can tell every move he makes is just like, okay, I'll do this, and then I'll be fine for another minute,

and then we can think about the next bit, and then it's just always one step behind, almost, and... Yeah, he's playing catch-up with himself, and he has completely lost control of the situation. Yeah. And... That's a really interesting thing. I hadn't really thought about it like that.

It just... It kind of came together for me just in that last scene, when Vimes was all together for almost the first time in the book, and then once was just so clearly trying to get on top of what was happening. Which, yeah, I mean, the whole once death scene was really odd, because it was like very much, okay, we are going to Vimes, even defying veterinary, and saying, no, we're going to do this by the book,

and we're going to arrest him, but then he says, throw the book at him, and he dies, and... Vimes like, oh, right. Yeah. Death is very weird in the practice books. Like, sometimes it's a huge moment, and sometimes it can almost be a throwaway of just sort of a... Oh, well, I suppose he is dead now,

and that's kind of what we wanted anyway. Yeah, I do wonder why Pratchett made that decision. I would have liked to... No, I mean, I would... What I would have liked was for Carrot to wrestle with that a bit more, because Carrot... It happens because Carrot is quite sweet and innocent, and didn't understand the metaphor,

but what happens is Carrot effectively murdered someone. And he didn't mean to kill him. No. But he doesn't seem to mind that he did. Exactly. And some of that's to do with just... We're at the end of the book, and it wraps things up very tidily, and I think it is about wrapping things up tidily,

because if you leave once in a prison cell, then... I think later on Pratchett becomes more comfortable with finishing a book with things still to be done on the admin side of things, like being a bit more realistic about how things actually end, and how they don't really want the reactions over, yeah. But I think you're probably right. I think he was just wrapping it up. Yeah.

Speaking of, almost, the moment of realisation that Vimes has on page 238, so quite a way in, we almost mentioned this the other week by cutting out the spoilers. Was this the running? Just in case any of you were reading at a section at a time, I do want to preserve your spoilers. Where is it? Here it is.

And there's Vimes staring at nothing. I think you're a running man, and further back in the fuddled mists of his life, a boy running to keep up. And under his breath, he said, any of them get out. So at this point, he's putting it all together. I'm working out that once is the... Fuck, I've forgotten his KKK title.

The Grand Supreme Master Wizard Extraordinary... Dragon, yeah. Oh, no, we can't... Wizard Extraordinary. I like that. And as we were saying and stopped ourselves, I don't know when you're meant to have worked it out, whether you're meant to be like,

oh, Vimes was a bit slow on the uptake of this, or whether... Because it's obvious when you've already read the book so many times, and I can't think back to the first time I read this. No, absolutely not. I don't remember when I realised the plot twist. Because I like all the little bits of foreshadowing in there.

And I know we realise before Vimes does, because it just becomes apparent, but I'm not sure exactly when we're meant to work it out, and then it becomes confirmed. It's nice to see Vimes come to the same conclusion like that. I don't know when we're meant to. It's the kind of procedural thriller parody aspect of the book. And it's done very well.

That's it. And it's done well in all the watch books, I think. You know, it's possible that this is the least clever of the bunch in that respect, because they're very intricate plots, generally. Whereas this, obviously, followed a narrative for the reason that that's what it was doing. That's what it's parodying. But I like a good detective novel.

It's not the genre I go to time and time again, but I've got a few ulcers I really love in Rankin' Thing, the best. I really enjoy crime novels. I've never really been into crime novels or procedurals or thrillers and things, but I will sometimes sort of pick one up if that's the book handy, and then I always find myself enjoying them, and not something I actively seek out. Yeah, for sure.

They don't have enough dragons in normally, so I like this one. But Vimes especially actually reminds me of Ian Rankin's main character, Inspector Rebus. He's also a angry drunk to start with, although possibly doesn't have as much character development in a shorter time as Vimes does. Look at Vimes by the end of this reasonably short book. Look at him, all the sentences and growing up. But that once moment is quite...

It's really good for seeing Vimes' character. It's not just seeing him work it out. The thing he clings to on it, and where a lot of his anger at once comes from, is anyone get out, because Vimes is so directly responsible for those deaths, the deaths of the rest of the elucidated brethren. At this point, has the near-miss with the guard already happened, where Vimes thinks they've been flamed? It's not, has it? That's a bit later, yeah.

So that almost... Yeah, later on he'll be even more mad about that, I think, because when he thinks his guys almost died, he can't just calmly go, Oh, did anyone get out? Yeah. It's... And I feel like when once said, did any of them get out, it was more like, is anyone going to tell on me then?

Yeah, I don't think he wanted them to be alive. Yeah, yeah. Because he was a bit... How did the fingers end up? I think he just ran off. I don't think we ever find out what happens to brother fingers. So obviously once is evil, should we talk about evil in general? Oh, if you like, yeah.

This is, I think, one of the best pages of Pratchett's writing, and this is Vessenari talking to Vimes, and finding this insight into how Vimes sees the world. You find life such a problem, because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are always and only the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides. A great rolling sea of evil shallower in some places,

but so much deeper in others. But people like you put together little rafts of rules and vaguely good intentions and say, this is the opposite. This will triumph in the end. And amazing. It's so patronizing. It is, but not with meaning to be patronizing. It's just that he genuinely sees normal people as interesting specimens,

and especially Vimes, who's not a normal person exactly, but is much closer to that sea of humanity and yet manages to. It's patronizing, but I think Vessenari, this Vessenari in this book, almost finds some joy and amazement in it. It does fascinate him. Yes. That Vimes can think like that. Sorry, do you want to read out a section of it as well?

Yeah, no. It's the bit that made me laugh so much. I went back and read the whole thing out loud to Jack the other week. It was just the end of the rant, which is Vimes going, well, they're just people. They're just doing what people do. So Lord Vessenari gave him a friendly smile. Of course, of course. He said, you'd have to believe that.

I appreciate it. Otherwise, you'd go quite mad. Otherwise, you'd think you're standing on a feather-thin bridge over the vaults of hell. Otherwise, existence would be a dark agony, and the only hope would be that there is no life after death. I quite understand. It's, again, just the, oh, no, yes, no. I understand why you feel the need to not be quite so pessimistic about humanity. Of course, you're wrong, but I do understand, old chap.

It's a beautiful page of writing, though. And it's these two really, really opposing philosophies. And it's what we've talked about with Vimes the whole way through this book, is that he really, he believes enough in the city and its people to be disappointed by it, which he is on a very regular basis. Whereas, veterinary comes from the standpoint of, everyone's a bastard, and honestly, bastards are necessary. And it's, veterinary is almost the embodiment of that trite pessimistic phrase,

which is, if you're a pessimist, then you're never disappointed. And so, veterinary, sorry, can, from his, from that perspective, he doesn't have to get emotional about it. He knows everybody's terrible, and so he can use all of his mental energy, working out how to channel that terribleness into a way that works efficiently, at least. Whereas, Vimes is constantly in turmoil, because his view of the world doesn't match up with what is happening. Yeah. Well, as Vessenari points out, it's that you need the bad people to work. The only things good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people.

And they are good at it. But then, you know, once the tyrant's been deposed, who's taking the bins out? And that's the bit that the good people don't do. I'm not saying I particularly agree with that, or don't agree with that. I think it's a really interesting philosophy. Yeah. I think what he's saying is, the tyrant was the one making other people take out the trash. And the good person doesn't know how to force people to do that.

And it turns out he can't persuade people to do that, because people are shit. Yeah. Which is a theme that's explored in more of a show-don't-tell way later on, I think. I feel like this must have been incredibly cathartic for Terry Pratt and to write. You get the idea, this all came out at once. Sometimes you really do just feel like everyone is an absolute bastard. Yeah. I come down on veterinary side of things more often than on vimes is. Very much so. But it's so easy to come down on either side if you just look at the world. Like, if I scroll through Twitter for five minutes, I could come out of it absolutely hating

everyone that has ever existed ever. And I'm talking about my personal Twitter there. But if I scroll through the podcast Twitter account, especially the notifications, then generally what I'm seeing is a lot of people really being quite lovely. Yes. And I could use the absolute dregs and the absolute best of humanity. Like, I think I am the easiest spot. Yeah. I think I am generally and I'm trying extra hard to be optimistic at the moment. I think I do come down more on vimes aside that I think everyone has as much good in them as they do evil. Yeah. If you look at it from a philosophy point of view, I think I'm thinking Plato certainly, probably some others who kind of

put humanity together out of non-emotional parts almost like this motivation, that motivation, and the other motivation. And I feel like that's what vimes thinks in a simpler way. That's people are people. People are this, that and the other. And sometimes it comes out this way. Sometimes the other. Yeah. But that narrow is almost a more religious point of view. And that you have to believe in good, to believe in evil in the same way that you have to believe in God, to believe in Satan. It really fascinates me because it's an amazing page of writing. He says, you know, down there are people who will follow any dragon or worship any God and ignore any iniquity all out of a kind of humdrum, everyday badness, a sort of mass produced darkness

of the soul. They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no. And that's that part I really agree with. Yeah. And that's something that Pratchett really comes back to in a great way. There's not a spoiler to say there's a really good line in a later book, which is evil begins when you start treating people as things. Yeah. I think one could argue that the this low grade evil of the everyday person is stems from fear rather than evil. Yeah. I think there's an argument to be made that it stems from fear, selfishness or a combination of the two. Because obviously evil in itself isn't really a thing, which is the Yeah. I mean, without going into some like massive in depth philosophical deconstruction of the

concept of evil, because I haven't had a Friday night. I haven't eaten and I've got to go and finish making a cake. But after the cake, then the deconstruction of evil, what veterinary describes as evil, I don't think is really evil. I think it is, as Vaim said, I think it's people being people. And yeah, people are inherently selfish. What you would what one could describe as goodness is really people overcoming selfishness. And we've had conversations before about, is it possible to ever be motivated by anything other than selfishness? Is there not some inherent selfishness in every apparently selfless act? Yeah. And I try not to think about that too closely, because I think I believe no, there isn't a way. And then I start hating myself for even the

good things I do. Tell me about it. I'm in the middle of theoretically quite a selfless act at the moment. But yeah, I keep looking at what am I gaining from this? Am I somehow still being selfish? Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't really have a lot more to say about it. It just it really fascinates me. I think it's an amazing piece of writing. And I think the fact that that deep, quick glare into the absolute soul of human condition, that it can come at the end of a parody police procedural with a dragon in it. That's what I love so much about these books is that that is there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's the most open look we get into veterinary brain. I think from here, usually, although his philosophy is apparent, it's not

spelled out over two pages. And it's an interesting character introduction at the end of the book as well. Yeah, considering this is technically the second book that he's been in. Yeah. And and this is right at the end of the book. We've watched veterinary's actions for two entire books. So mainly he was a lizard for most of one of them. Yeah. Before landing on this philosophy. And also the different that balance between veterinary and vimes. It's the same way earlier on where vimes is trying to chip his way out the cell vimes didn't tell me had a veterinary didn't tell vimes that actually there's a key in here. Yeah, because he needs to preserve vimes worldview as much as veterinary stands here and says, you are fucked up because you think people are good

and they're not they're all bastards. Yeah, as much as admits he needs vimes. He doesn't push him too far with that. Yeah, he needs vimes to think like that. Because that's what makes vimes work and volumes is this integral cog to the in veterinary's brain now to the functioning of the city. Yeah. The actually the very, very end of this passage is vimes pausing at the door and saying, do you believe all that, sir, about the endless evil and sheer blackness? Indeed, indeed said the petition. It's the only logical conclusion. But you get out of bed every morning, sir. Yes. I just like to know why. Why do you think why do you think he gets out bed every morning with that? I think the first scenario is so intelligent. And this is, I don't know, this

might sound arrogant. I think I'm quite clever. You are quite clever. Yes. And because I'm quite clever, I am very easily bored. And I think veterinary gets out of bed every morning as a challenge. It's the same way. Like if you look at veterinary's motivation for being a tyrant and ruling ink maupork, yeah, if you actually think about it, he doesn't need to. But it's almost like he's gonna get rich in almost any way you want it. But it's like he's almost gone. I need something to keep me occupied making this city work. Yeah. Will amuse me. The best game of the Sims ever. Yeah. But also, I can't look at this thing that could work and doesn't and not make it work. It's almost like a very focused version of a character we'll get later on. Yeah. Yeah.

He looks at this and he goes, Okay, well, I can make it better. So of course I'm going to do that. And that's why when you put him down into a tiny society like the rats and the snakes, he goes, Okay, well, I can make this work better. I can't be around it not. And I think that is genuinely for a couple of weeks. Okay. The best scenario is getting out of bed in the morning is I don't want to get bored. And I can't look at something that doesn't work and not try and make it work. Yeah. And it also, it doesn't feel like he minds that everybody is evil. He just accepts that in the same way that, you know, we accept gravity, where he finds that concept very apparent. Yes, gravity, he does like to float. Yes.

I'm sure he wouldn't like it if he heard about gravity, to be honest. Oh, he'd be furious. Oh, we don't get a say about it, fucking laws of physics. Who made those laws? I haven't got them in my book. But yeah, the laws of thermodynamics in this city. We do not. No, we absolutely do not. That was kind of a theme of the book is that the dragon does not know the course of physics or thermodynamics. Yeah, I think that's probably as far as I can go, looking at the nature of evil on a Friday night. Yeah, I think definitely we can discuss the philosophical nature of evil some more. Yeah. I like saying that makes me sound

intellectual. Do you have an obscure reference for Neil for me for aren't seen? Blinded. Yeah. I mean, most references in here, unless I've missed some really obscure ones are still movie ones. So whatever. But the one about the the cockerel being arrested for crying on Soul Cake Thursday, which becomes Soul Cake Tuesday later on. There's like a few cases of animals being rested and killed for various reasons. But I found one about cockerel. 1474 Switzerland. A cockerel laden egg, which was considered a heinous and unnatural crime, and was condemned to be burned alive. And burned alive. Yes, they were used to detonate it. And it was apparently treated as seriously as the execution of a human heretic. I'm not quite sure how one can tell that in the

that far back. But I suppose it was put in the books with everything else. But yeah, basal Switzerland. Weird ass history with chickens. Cool. Yeah, I'm assuming it was actually just a chicken. And they've got a bit confused. Yeah, or somebody put a egg up its bum and made him lay it. Apparently that was done as a prank occasionally on farms. Of course it was people are weird. Yeah. On that note, before I properly say goodbye to us all, tiny moment of admin. So that ends our discussion of guards, guards, guards, guards, guards, guards. Next week, we've hinted at this, we've said things, there is a special bonus episode coming. All I'm going to say is that it comes out in the 30th of July. And if you know what else is

coming out in the 30th of July, you might put one and one together and make a Lego brick. Sorry, I've just been measuring Lego bricks. Good, good. So yeah, after that, we are going to take a little break and probably abandon your luggals during August. This is for a variety of reasons we may end up reappearing. We don't know. Yeah, assume we won't be around during August. We may return with a bit of Eric near the end of the month. We're not sure yet. However, do continue to contact us, sending us whatever. We will go through the contact details and we'll be around. We will absolutely still be on the internet. We just won't be recording. But before we go, again, I want to say a massive thank you to our listeners because you're really lovely. And we worked out

earlier, we've been making this for about a year now. We didn't actually start releasing episodes on October last year because after we recorded our first episodes, my life caught fire. And it turns out that fire has actually continued for 12 months. Not diligent enough with that fire extinguisher. No. So it is really nice to know that we have a lovely group of people out there who listen to us every week and send us their thoughts and queries and things. We're very grateful for you and we will be back with you soon. We will. We will. And we will. Yes. However, in the meantime, dear listener, you can follow us on Instagram at the Treeshell Minky Fret on Twitter at Minky Fret Pod. You can find us on Facebook at the Treeshell Minky Fret

and you can email us your thoughts, queries, castles, albatrosses and snacks at the Treeshell Minky Fret pod at gmail.com. And in the meantime, dear listener, perhaps the magic would last. Perhaps it wouldn't. But then what does? Ah, there's a puppy. Hello, puppy.