The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 3: Gender on the Discworld (Affirmations on a Postcard from Scritz)

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel are flitting to and from the Discworld like confused Chelonauts.This month, we’re back on the Disc to explore gender and celebrate the Glorious 25th of May! VIDEO VERSION: https://youtu.be/OXJYfghjUDA SHEPHERD'S CROWN MENTIONED SPORADICALLY from 00:07:40 UNTIL 00:33:05. No story-breaking spoilers but purists should skip this section. Gender? I Hardly Know ‘er!Find us on the internet:BlueSky: @makeyefretpod.bsky.socialInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on BlueSky @2hatsjo and follow Francine @francibambi Help us challenge the Supreme Court’s judgment on trans rights | Good Law ProjectThings we talked about:UK: Court Ruling Threatens Trans People | Human Rights Watch Grace Petrie7: Equal Rites Pt.1 (My Knee Doesn't Have Lungs) - The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret  Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 - Wikipedia Support our Glorious allies!LIVE DATES | ★ MARC BURROWS ★PratchatGabrielle KentDesert Island Discworld House to Astonish » PodcastCaimh McDonnellRhianna Pratchett       Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

Just quick shout out to World Turtle Day, which is as we are recording today, the 23rd of May. I just think it's nice that there's an entire day dedicated to world turtles. I learned mitgeser means with cheese. I can say the German parts of Willkommen from Cabaret. Oh yeah, I can do that. Yeah, that's it. Corman from Cabaret. Oh yeah, I can do that. Yeah, that's it.

Welcome. Right, okay. We're making a podcast, Francie. Should we make a podcast? Oui. Yeah. Yes. Hello and welcome to The True Show Make You Fr Fretter podcast in which we were reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. And now we've finished that, we've come back to the disc because it's just been too long away and I still haven't come

up with a proper replacement intro for this podcast. I'm Joanna Hagan. I'm Francine Carroll. And today is the first of our theme revisit episodes and we are talking about gender on the disc. You knew it was coming. It was definitely, definitely coming. So yeah, theme revisits is something I think we've hinted at, we've said we were going to do once we finish the whole Discworld is dive back into these topics we love talking

about. It was inevitable that gender was going to be one of those. Yes, at some point. Yeah, many reasons, just just broadly, it's entire five years of podcast. And because it's a special occasion, it's the glorious 25th of May. It's a glorious topic, which is why we're also doing this on video. So if you're listening on your normal podcast app, you can go over to YouTube and you can watch us in all our glory.

Yeah, it'll be a very similar experience on account of I don't intend to edit either very much. You will get the visuals. You will get the visuals and my hair is looking stunning today. It is. It is looking stunning Joanna. Well done you. Yeah, think of all the things you're missing out on if you just listen.

So why are we talking about gender now? Obviously we were going to you anyway, but also we want to talk about some stuff that's happening and maybe encourage listeners to help us raise some funds. Yes. The thing we are fundraising for and then we'll be donating all of May's Patreon income to is the Good Law Project's current ongoing trans rights crowdfunder. I'm not going to go into this in huge amounts of detail. On the 16th of April, the UK Supreme Court made a ruling that set trans rights legally in the UK back very far because we live in a hellscape. The people who are already aware

of this topic, I'm assuming assuming don't need to hear even more about it from us. If you're not very aware of what's going on, we've got some handy links in the show notes that will explain it a lot better than I can in a podcast intro. The Good Law Project's trans rights crowd funder is specifically raising money to bring a legal case against Equalities Minister Bridget Phillipson and proving in the process that with this Supreme Court ruling the UK is in breach of its obligations under both the Human Rights Act and the European Convention of Human Rights. So if you are in a position to donate to this there will be a link in the show notes down below where you can do so and if you're not in a position to don't feel

guilty like the world is a hellscape and there's so many horrible things happening. We get it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also worth mentioning the trans rights in America and danger of and are being rolled back all over the shop as well. Yep. That is very much happening.

What a world. And we felt very helpless and powerless about it. And then we realized we have a platform and we can do something. Yes, yes. Productive despair as we call it. Yes, productive despair. One last thing before we dive into the episode proper, obviously we are doing this because a shitty thing has happened for trans people in the UK but I don't want to spend this entire episode being angry and infuriated at everything.

This is a celebration of an author we love and a really interesting topic that this author dives into a lot in lots of different ways. I'm going to throw in a quick anecdote that I got to go see Grace Petrie live a couple of weeks ago, which was obviously wonderful because Grace Petrie is great. What did you get? It was in Berry. She played the apex. Oh. Yeah. My partner got me the tickets as a Christmas present. Grace Petrie is great. Why did you get? It was in Berry. She played the apex. Oh.

Yeah. My partner got me the tickets as a Christmas present. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, no, brilliant. But I cannot put into words the feeling of being in that room just with a bunch of people who are willing to shout trans rights matter, trans lives matter and trans rights matter really loudly and how much joy and healing wonderfulness that brought me. And it was a privilege to get to be in rooms like that. Like I know not everyone lives in a town that Greasefeetree is touring or, you know, can afford gig tickets and things. So if we can put any ounce of that feeling of being in a room full of people

and joy and celebrating into this episode, then that's what we're going to try and do today. Yeah. It's been a little while, but I don't think I will ever forget the first thing we did after COVID being a Grace Petrie concert and the amount everybody was crying, I think, at Black Tie. There were tears. Losing Side, that one now every time, emotional gut punch. We'll link to a couple of Grace Petrie songs in the show notes. We will and her tour dates because you know go see her it's good fun. So spoiler warning then before we dive in properly, all of Discworld I guess we are

going to be covering the length and breadth from very near the beginning to very near the end but any Shepherds Crown spoilers are going to be contained to the first section. So we're going to have some timestamps down below. So if you are avoiding those, you can skip just that section. And there will still be two other wonderful sections because we're splitting things into three today, part one. And a pair of three. Is it a pair of three? A little cheeky bit of a pair of three. You know that's going to be an episode at some point. Oh yeah. I'm prepped for that one.

I'm going to be totally normal about the Maid of Mother and Crone. So normal. As you always are. So as you are coming on this journey through gender with us, dear listeners, we're going to start off with some gender essentialism, talking about male witches and female wizards. We love it. We love to see it. Gender essentialism. We love the books. Yeah, no, we love the books. We're not big fans of gender essentialism. One of the problems with the video format is that our patrons are used to it, obviously, but I just end up smiling a lot throughout quite serious subjects because I enjoy the conversation.

So, you know, if I look like I'm delighted at things, I shouldn't be. Give me the benefit of the doubt. Yes, don't worry. We do think the bad things are bad. Fascism, bad. Yes. Oh, I had one of those earlier. And then in part two, we'll be talking about the dwarves or dwarves. I still can't remember which one we decided was correct, but we'll be talking about them. And then in the third part I'm obviously going to be really normal about Monstrous Regiment. Because that's something I'm capable of doing. I believe so, as I recall. Did we do two or three or four episodes on that Nand?

We only did three because I was deadlining and didn't have time for a fourth but there were three long episodes. Well here we go here's number four. Here's our fourth Monstrous Regiment. There was always going to be one, the secret bonus Monstrous Regiment episode. So, should we dive in? Yeah, let's. Let's start with gender essentialism. So gender essentialism in this context being the two kinds of magical person on the disc. Yes, and that men must always be wizards and women must always be witches. And that was laid out very early. With the wonderful book Equal Rights. Which, sidebar, I'm going to throw a couple of these

in because I reread a bunch of books for this which was delightful that obviously I haven't revisited a long time in the case of Equ equal rights, like five years. I forgot this was the book that has the line, often there's no more than a little plaque to reveal that against all gynecological probability, someone very famous was born halfway up a wall. And also, just a little thing I noticed, not relevant to gender, but I saw it and had to say it because we're now, you know, looking back at things in retrospect and all that, that in the description of the senior wizard's lavatory, two big silver mirrors fixed opposite walls so that someone looking into one could see themselves repeated again and again until the image was too small to see. Well that's just foolhardy. Yeah, which is why, you know, I don't want to go

like men bad, women good, but I do think witches have the edge over wizards in being more sensible about mirrors. I think in the context of this book we're allowed to go men bad, women good, aren't we? I feel like in the context- At least we start thinking about it right at the end. I was kind of thinking in the context of like wizards books versus witches books in general. The wizards books tend to be, oh well, things have gone a bit tits up and the witch's books tend to be a bit,

things have gone a bit tits up, let's fix it. So I do think witches generally do get the edge a bit. I feel like the wizards definitely go, let's fix it. Yes. They don't necessarily go about it in the best way. Also, once you get past sorcery... That takes that man. Yes. Once you get past sorcery, I think wizards are relegated to B plot a bit more, apart from Rincewind, who I think is very much his own creature and harder to... Yeah. I'm not saying Rincewind's non-minor-y, I'm just saying that talking about Rincewind books

in this topic, I'm not sure there's much I actually have to say. I don't think he fits into the gender essentialism though, you're right. Yeah. Maybe he would make a better, I don't think he'd make a better witch. No, I think he's, he's been in too far too many dimensions to try and put them in a box now. Yeah, that is fair. Unless it's the luggage. That one, he's probably quite safe in and will come out neatly folded. My favourite gender. Right.

We are staying on topic this episode. So let's talk about equal rights. The idea of wizards as men and witches as women is like a really long established thing in fantasy as well. I mean you're talking about fairy tales and Arthurian legend. Yes. But yeah, I mean, my prep for the podcast episode was not to reread the books because Joanna reads about twice as fast as I do. It was to re-listen to some of our old episodes. I've been getting choice quotes from Francine all day. Nothing relevant, unfortunately. As we did back then, I also re-read the bit of a slip of the keyboard that Pratchett wrote as he was writing equal rights. So the bit about

gender essentialism basically, and how witches are this way, and wizards are that way and how Morgana obviously was the foil of Merlin and this, that and the other. I think he definitely had this entire concept in mind very early. Well, if you look at it, because it's literally the third Discworld book, at this point he hadn't really decided Discworld was going to be a big series. The plan was after he did the Light, Fantastic and Colour of Magic and that's two books that very much go together. Then this was, oh, I've set up these wizards in this big university, let's hold this one big thing up and say, but why though? Then I'm going to go off to write something called The High Megas and we'll be talking about that later on this year when

we talk about The Other Earth. Then he didn't't, he wrote Morton and then a whole bunch of other books. Frackets, see our previous episodes. See the last five years of The Truth Shall Make You Fright. But yeah, this is a really early example of Pratchett doing the thing he does best, which is holding up a thing and then going, but why though? Why? best, which is holding up a thing and then going, but why though? It doesn't answer the question, it's just really good at asking why. It's quite interesting as the book goes, it's really intense from the old guard on both sides, this men as wizards, women as

witches idea. You have granny insisting from the very beginning that female wizards aren't right because wizard magic is all books and stars and geometry and women won't grasp it. Yes, definitely. It's a bit of internalised, not misogyny, but playing oneself down. I feel like it's almost like an internalised classism thing because you also have the wizards being really city-based and the witches being very rural, so they're not spending as much time reading and doing geometry. They're just absorbing knowledge and drawing circles perfectly well, thank you very much, don't need none of that geometry nonsense.

Yeah. And the further we get, I think, in the books, the more self-assured the witchers become about this and the importance of their role as compared to the... Yes. ...obviously, right? I mean, Browning Weatherwax here is obviously very dismissive of the sparks and fireworks and geometry. But at the same time, yes, as you say, there's a little bit of not for us kind of thing. Whereas I feel like later it's very much kind of, time, yes, as you say, there's a little bit of not for us kind of thing. Whereas I feel like later it's very much kind of, yeah, no, we only deal with the entirety of the human experience. Don't worry about it. Yeah. We could also do that if we wanted, but we're busy

doing important stuff. Birth and death, yeah. Not important at all. It's interesting as well because you get Mrs. Ewig Aweege introduced later and she is a witch doing wizard magic, but in a very pretentious way. She is all stars and books and geometry. Yeah, she's Magrat's dark side for sure. Yes. Magrat herself, I think, has just too much in her practicality to ever get carried too much away with stars and geometry. She's just got that bread much in her practicality to ever get carried too much away with stars and geometry. She's just got that bread knife in her boot tying it to the ground. Cessahad. This dangerously wizardish. Yeah, you're getting a little bit out of your magic gender, young lady. I think also the attitude of the wizards changes a bit. You have Treetal here who is obviously,

as we spoke about at length when we covered equal rights, the worst. Yes, yeah, no he was, yeah. What was the other called? Drum Billet, who was briefly the worst, but very quickly eclipsed. GWEN And Cut Angle, the Arch Chancellor at this time, who is the worst for a bit until he has to end up in a boat with Granny Weatherworks. But Tretle, when he's speaking to Esk, and I think this is when they're on the caravan train thing heading towards Aitmore Park, women are a little too excitable and high magic requires great clarity of thought and women's talents don't lie in that direction. Their brains tend to overheat.

Then you have Simon, obviously. He's a lot more open-minded. A lot more open-minded despite being perhaps like the apex of this logical thinking. But I think he's just taken everything apart and put it back together so hugely. There isn't really room in there to worry about what bits anyone has. Yes, that's true. Yeah. It's like, oh, you're a female person, you say, right? Yes, no, sorry, I've been thinking in atoms. How many atoms do you have?

Oh, very personal question. But yeah, it kind of becomes the Pratchett mousepiece in Equal Right. She's the one asking why over and over again. And again, I like that there's no real big answer to it, but she thinks about this a lot. And she's protective of it. When she heard Granny Ramblon about witchcraft, she longed for wizardry. But when she had Tretl speaking his high pitched voice, she'd fight to the death for witchcraft. Absolutely. She'd both or none at all. Yes, which is fantastic. I hesitate to call her an early version of Tiffany.

Oh, there's definitely like seeds of Tiffany there. There's seeds of Tiffany there, but I do like how distinct she is looking at them both side by side here. Yes. And we get to look at them both side by side in I Shall Wear Midnight when Esk turns up. Yes, of course. Yeah. Although by that point Esk is a very different person. He's a very different person who was growing up. As one might be after spending question mark, question mark, question mark years.

Travelling the unreal estate. Yeah. And weird. I wonder how many times she accidentally ran into Rincewind? I feel like they must have crossed paths and had some kind of grudging respect. What does her lifetime look like? Oh, no one. Next to Rincewind. It would look like Rincewind's, but in a much more elegant way.

Yeah, it would be like a genteel version of Rincewind's lifetime. More like an Escher painting and less like, what was it, a glassblower had the hiccups. Yes. It's really hard to not just talk about all the cool details of Equal Rights that I really like, like granny adapting to city life and actually quite enjoying it and obviously everything to do with Mrs. Whitlow. Well, yeah, you know, we can look at the gender points in there as well, can't we? The roles of women and how they differ between the rural and the city life here and kind of how the women operate within the unseen university and the important role they play despite not having

one. Yeah, there's absolutely... That's definitely, Mrs. Whitlow has certainly spoken to with the utmost respect. Yeah, and there's something about the wizards saying to us, no, there's one way to get into the university and you can't get in that way because you're a girl and granny goat and there's another way. You just work here. There's a huge female contingent that is very much why the university keeps working.

Exactly. So there's also something very interesting to be said about like Hills or Goat Finders role in the sort of things she sells and the way she's sort of not popular in the town, but very needed in the town. Absolutely. I think we talked about that quite a lot in the episode. It being 1987 as well and having all that laid out, not explicitly, but implicitly and underlined. Yeah, there's a lot more explicit in later books,, so re-read Fifth Elephant for this and there's a lot more explicit, yes this person makes condoms. Yeah, yeah.

Sonki's darling. Sonki's. Yes, so Escarina then turning up in I Shall Wear Midnight and eventually what she evolves into is a non-binary magic user which as someone I've said this episode is going to be a wonderful joyous celebration of gender and I'm saying that as a non-binary person whose feelings about gender are kind of oh that's icky put it over there I don't want it. I know you say that but we always talk about the bits of gender we like as well. Oh yeah no I know. Do you treat it more like a pick and mix? bits of gender we like as well. Do you treat it more like a pick and mix?

Very much so. And sometimes I don't fancy sweets at all. If we can get to the end of the podcast without a gender, I hardly know what we're not going to. Oh, I thought you were going to say without a convoluted food metaphor. Oh, there'll be plenty of those. Equal Rights is the book where the final, I think, 15 to 20 minutes of the last episode is just us eating scones live on microphone and arguing about it. I'm still right, by the way. I still, I didn't finish that episode so I can't remember why that came up. Granny eats scones at the end of the episode and I'm pretty sure she does, I can't remember, I think she does jam before cream but she, I can't remember if she does it the right way or not. But I then got very insistent about the cream before jam being the right way. So we had a scone

off. A scoff. A scoff, if you will. Yeah, I will. But yeah, no, I think we agreed you were the winner there, but largely because I'm incapable of doing anything neatly, let alone prepare a scone while head phoned up. I will take the victory where I can get it. Absolutely. So yeah, so Escarina becomes this kind of non-binary magic user. I never really felt like a wizard. I never really worried about anyone said, and I like this idea of I never really worried about anyone said and I like

this idea of I'm just going to take the bits of magic that suit me and move forward. Yeah. And it's interesting to imagine what would have happened on the disk if more people had taken that route, which doesn't have anything wrong with it. There's nothing stopping them apart from the entire society. Who can't overcome that easily? You know what I mean? It is odd in some ways that that's the one time that's happened in our view. Yeah, I feel like the lines definitely start to blur as we move along to jump forward and not jump back again. But Jeffrey and the Shepherd's Crown is I think the logical continuation of someone like Escarina who is a non-binary icon. I

don't think of myself as a man, I don't think I'm anything, I'm just me. Which, big mood. And sort of has the interest in the wrong magic. And I can't really imagine Jeffrey as a character doing any kind of wizard magic really? No, maybe a bit of brief fireworks to entertain the lads at the sheds. Yeah, and a bit of geometry to help with the shed engineering. Yeah, but even then you can think of him just passing that over to one of the guys who used to be a mechanic. Yeah, that's the key. Delegation. And yeah, the sheds themselves is an idea, this idea of masculinity needing a separate

home is still very gender essentially in its way, but in a very particular, it's not so much just gender as this is the way of old married couples. It's very empathetic way of being gender essentialist. It's realistic as well as empathetic and that if these two people have lived their lives this way, here's a solution for a bit of friction. Yes. It's not saying, well, you should have lived your lives that way because that's pointless. That is very pointless and doesn't help anyone, whereas the sheds themselves are particularly helpful. And of course, women can have sheds too. Well done, Johanna. You've saved us from being councils another day. Non-binary people are only allowed huts. It's complicated.

I'm not weighing in. You're not going to catch me out. Yeah, Tiffany Aking then, who is the not like other girls of witches. Oh, and kind. No, I don't mean it in a mean way, but she kind of accepts she is brown haired, she is not the princess and she will not be the China Shephardess and therefore she will be a witch. I don't think she's- Doesn't that make her not like the other girls of girls rather than of witches? Because I feel like most of witches are like that in some way. Oh yeah, no, I mean she's a good example of witches as not like other girls. Diving into the different flavors of womanhood with witches and Tiffany and such. Flavors of womanhood sounds like a terrible product name for something and I'm going to use it and make a million.

Definitely candles. SLAVERS OF WOMENHOOD? SLAVERS? Oh. Gourmet chocolates? We'll workshop this. We'll workshop this another day. Yeah, we'll workshop it.

We're going to make profit off of gender essentialism. We probably better not do it on the record. Yeah. Surprise, we've been evil capitalists all along. No, remember, capitalism bad, folks. What's good? Cake. Cake.

Cake good, capitalism bad. No one fascism. Yay on trans rights. Yes on Tiffany aching and trans rights. Yes, yes on Tiffany achking, yes on trans rights. But yeah, I think Tiffany's interesting because you go into Hatful of Skye especially, which is when she starts witch training and we've talked a lot about how it's really fun reading Tiffany because it is an age, an experience we remember. One of her big frustrations in Hatful of Skies, she's not

doing big magic. She's not really doing any magic. And she's learning a similar thing that Esk has to learn, which is that you sort of have to go through magic and out the other side and sometimes the proper magic is not doing magic. Sometimes the magic is the eagles we got tangled in along the way. Exactly. Or the terrible monster we allowed into our brain when we stepped out of it to use ourselves as a mirror along the way. Exactly.

And that's for lesser writer, by the way. I'm not sure if we picked up on this. That could have been a really clumsy metaphor for the vanity of young women. We talked about it, I was having a look back over my notes for that episode because I was saying, you know, is this an implication of the Susan problem? Oh, yes, yes, yes. But we don't think it was. No, I don't think it was. I think it's a very, very human thing to sometimes be vain and sometimes then things go horribly

wrong. But I think Tiffany's bigger flaw is being vain in a different way of wanting to do the big magic. She wants to do wizard magic. Yeah. bigger floor is being vain in a different way of wanting to do the big magic. She wants to do wizard magic. She might not think of it in those terms, but it's kind of what she's aspiring to. The fact that it happened to Esk and to Tiff and that Granny was aware it was happening makes me think that probably most young witches go through that phase. I mean, Granny definitely has her own forms of, you know, the stories of young Esmerelda and her vanity and how she so could have easily been Lilith if Lilith hadn't gone and been Lilith.

I do feel like, although obviously it is more that Granny Weatherback's evolved as Pratchett wrote her, it feels like as you're reading it, Granny just becomes, well, you learn a bit more about the fact that Granny absolutely thinks she could be a wizard. Of course, women can be a wizard. think she could be a wizard. Of course women can be a wizard, certainly I can be a wizard. We just shouldn't. But I think the wizards evolve as well to kind of have more respect for witches and go, yeah, no, you guys are doing the hard stuff. We'll stick safely, mostly, in our walls and you guys can go out there and do the mucky things. That's fine. It's safe as long as we're sending Prince Wind out to the Fireflame regions.

Exactly. And they, especially because of Rid Kelly and Granny kind of knowing each other and eventually realizing that, I think that helps with wizard respect for witches because he won't brook much in the way of disrespect as far as this goes. No, absolutely not. And I think it's more understanding that they're not really doing a lot of dancing around with he won't brook much in the way of disrespect as far as this goes. No, absolutely not. And I think it's more understanding that they're not really doing a lot of dancing around with their drawers on, especially not after the events of Lords and Ladies. Ridcully, a lot more so than any of the early wizards we meet,

is more reminiscent of his time old chap who definitely means well. Yes, doesn't always have the right words for it. And I think the Tiffany Achingbicks are interesting as well because when you laser we get Letitia who is very much like other girls in her dainty shoes and with her watercolours francing. You do get Tiffany called out here don't you you, for being a bit not like her. Yeah. She's just like, well, no, obviously I do this. Yeah, no, she does. She's very aware of this and also aware that some of her dislike of Letitia might not be

because she paints watercolours. Entirely watercolour based. I think it's, I'm not going to dislike someone for watercolours as you are a very talented watercolour painter, but you know. Thank you. On the other hand, I've never tried to steal a duke from you. Which I appreciate, Baron. We don't have a plethora of barons around and I've never really tried to be in possession of one. No, no. But you know I wouldn't. No, I know you wouldn't and I appreciate that about you. That's what I appreciate about you. That's what you appreciate about you. That's what you appreciate about me, is it? But yeah, having had the end of, like I was looking at the end of Wintersmith and there's

these lovely lines like she's sort of debating whether to jump back into the dance and if you dance now you'll be believing in yourself and trusting in your star and big twinkling things thousands of miles up in the sky. I don't care if they twinkle on everlasting snow. And the sort of pragmatism after this very strange not-romance that Tiffany has lived through for most of Wintersmith then carries on into I Shall Wear Midnight and is what allows her to be quite stoic about Roland if a little bit grumpy around the corners and eventually be quite stoic about Letitia and go, right, yeah, she is very pretty and dainty and like other girls and also she's very clearly, could be a very powerful witch if she wanted.

Yeah, yeah. Again, did we talk about, maybe we did, but what, where's the line between potential witch and witch? If you have the powers and occasionally practice them, are you a witch or are you just a dangerous magical girl? I think there has to be a certain amount of training and supervision at some point. Yeah, yeah. Get your apprenticeship in. There's a whole sort of a witch alone is a terrible thing and this keeping an eye on each other to prevent cackling. I think if a witch is left to their own devices you get things like Lilith's and Matt Blackhouse. Even untrained.

Yeah. Well I don't think Lilith had much in the way of training. I think she just decided to go and claim a lot of power. No, you're probably right. Yeah. Yeah, you can't imagine her being an apprentice in a cottage, can you? No. Not unless it was...

Jim DeBread. Sorry. Chris Bred, much healthier. Mm, Ravita Cottage. The worst 90s remake. That was a reference to Amazing Morris, but I didn't dive into Amazing Morris for this episode because there's not a ton of gender stuff in there. No, that would have just been a bit self-indulgent on the... No, that would have just been because I wanted to reread Amazing Morris again, which I'm

pretty sure I will do any day now. That's probably me. Not self-indulgent of me at all to say let's do a gender episode so I can read Monstrous Regiment and talk about it some more. I mean, in fairness, definitely good for other things too. Yeah. But there is a full third of this episode that I think we've just reserved for that. It didn't fit in the other two topics. As a treat, as oh my. I mean, not. Yes, one thing really, in the as as demonstrated by Esken Simon, and I feel like could be demonstrated again, the kind of importance of intersectional cooperation.

Yes. Is again, as non-binary wizards and witches aren't really explored, I feel like the power of that is suggested at and for obvious reasons can't be explored properly. But again, in, you know, real life here, this one we live on, what's it called? Ground world. Yeah. Where are we? Fuck, I'm really losing my growth this year, by the way. It's growing great. But yeah, just the concept of DI or whatever being a bad fucking thing. It's almost like we never played out. It's

never played out. It's yeah, it's almost like lots of different opinions from lots of different walks of life and experiences is actually a really good way to progress in a way that anybody sane would consider helpful. Yeah, I like that. I'm very with you on that. Yeah. Esken Simon. Excellent example. Diversity win. And later later Jeffrey. And later Jeffrey. And later Jeffrey and I'm sure they all met, actually I'm not sure if they all met up or not.

Does Simon still around? I'm not sure. Time's a bit not in a straight line. Yeah, no, it's fine. They met up somewhere. They definitely met up somewhere. But I like that by the end of Discworld with Shepherd's Crown as well, the lines are starting to blur more and obviously the Discworld has gone off into

a future that we can't see because our window to the Discworld has gone, that we can imagine the lines continue to blur. The entire world's a smudge. Yeah, apart from the railway lines. Apart from the railway lines. The metaphor got away from me at the end there, but I think I made a good point. Much like a runaway train. Okay, so, so wow Sam Vines tearing his shirt off on top of that metaphor fantastic see I thought we'd at least get to the dwarf spit before we get to Sam Rimes Jerry Sam Vines tearing his shirt off but note we're here that's really the only

thing I remember from the last year of the pod Sam Vines ripping his shirt off in a fight on top of a train yeah I'm pretty sure that's what we talked about. Anyway, dear listeners, you're now free of Shepard's Crown spoilers. Yes, here is where we will put the timecode so you can listen again without sheer. Yes, it is very safe. And return to the journey. Back on the journey. Actually, we have a brief interruption. Oh, yeah, okay.

The train's pulling into a station quickly. Ooh. Metaphors all over the shop today. Oh yeah, okay. The train's pulling into a station quickly. Metaphors all over the shop today. We're going to have a quick little interlude, dear listeners, because we have some messages for you, especially for our trans community. Hello, Mark Burrows here, author of The Magic of Terry Pratchett. I'm not in an art gallery, I'm simply marrying a historian, and this is what our house looks like. Uh, it's great isn't it? Um, look, Terry was a trans ally. Uh, like he didn't need to come out

and say that, it was implicit, although I'm sure if he were here he would. Um, we know this from his stories, like the most evil thing you can do in a Terry Pratchett story is treat people as things Like the most evil thing you can do in a Terry Pratchett story is treat people as things or take someone's story away from them. He talks about that loads. Taking someone's story away from them, denying them their own story is the very, very worst thing that happens in a Terry Pratchett book.

Like he was on your side and so am I. And so are any people who were any kind of right thinking. There's loads of stories about Terry being the first person to write somebody's new name for example when he signed their book and him taking great pleasure in calling them by their real name, not their dead name. And he loved that. Also, like two of his favorite films genuinely were Priscilla Queen of the Desert

and Hedwig and the Angry Edge. Like the man was not, and so am I. And stay strong, most people are with you. Most people are decent and honourable and fundamentally people and people are fundamentally, genuinely decent sorts. It's going to be okay. I really believe that and Terry is on your side. His books are on your side. Read them. The message is there. I'll see you soon. Thank you very much. Cheers.

The next message is from author and dedicated Pratchett fan CK McDonnell. I'll be honest with you. If you'd answered this a year ago, I probably would have given you a fairly generic, live-and-let-live type answer. Here's what changed. Out of the blue, I got an email from a name I didn't recognise, who it turned out was my old boss from over 20 years ago now, back when I had a proper job, as my mum calls it, when I worked in IT. And at the time I was trying to make the transition to being a stand-up comedian and writer, and as I said, Bobby was my boss. And she was incredible, amazingly supportive, so supportive in fact that I can't tell you exactly what she did or else she would get into trouble. But I didn't know at the time, I don't think nobody else did

either except I'm talking to her, that she was struggling with something far bigger. And now every time I see anything about trans people in the news, that's who I think of, I think of Bobby. And it makes the whole thing seem fucking ridiculous because that's the thing, anyone who's a decent intelligent human being, if you met Bobby you would instantly realise that fundamentally she fucking ridiculous because that's the thing anyone who's a decent intelligent human being if you met Bobby you would instantly realize that fundamentally she is a kind charming intelligent wonderful human being and it's never based on real people with these things same as racism whatever else homophobia you name it basically what these people have done is they've just taken a massive

dollop of ignorance, thrown in a pinch of urban myth and a whole lot of worst case scenarios that are ludicrous and they've created themselves a monster to be scared of. And that's all it is. If you think it's sad that grownups would have to make up imaginary friends, how much sadder is it that they have to make up imaginary enemies? So never forget that, anytime you read this and see it and hear it in the news and social media and wherever, it's not actually about you and it's not about Bobby. It's about something they've made up in their own heads. So don't let the bastards get you down. Hi, Hal Kennedy from Desert Island Discworld here.

It's the glorious 25th of May and lots of us are thinking about the glorious revolution and the People's Republic of Treacle Mine Road. I've been re-reading Nightwatch recently since the Penguin Classics version came out and the thing that really strikes me is how Sam Vimes, as John Keel, saves the Republic but is then betrayed by the city for essentially doing nothing other than protecting it too well. Terry Pratchett didn't do a lot of explicit writing about gender, a bit with cheery little bottom and more with monstrous regiment, but he did do a lot of writing about being true

to yourself. Despite the attempts of certain British newspaper columnists to claim him as their own, it's clear that he was on the side of those who simply want the right to live their lives and had no time for anyone who would look to wield power and authority to make those people's lives harder. It's a bad time in the UK and the US for trans people, I don't think anyone would deny that. The governments of both countries seem to be hell bent on making things as difficult and unpleasant for trans and non-binary people as possible. What that means is that if there's going to be no justice, then there really

is just us and we have to stand together and offer aid and assistance where it's needed, regardless of what power the system allows any one of us. To quote another copper, every time someone steps up and says who they are, the world becomes a better, more interesting place. That was Raymond Holt rather than Sam Vimes but the point very much stands. How do they rise up? It doesn't really matter how they rise up. The important thing is that they don't have to rise up alone. Love and solidarity always. Hi folks, it's Ben here from Pratchat and I just want to say a big hello to all of our trans listeners out there to just say, we see you, we accept you, you're wonderful,

just the way you are. And I hope you have people in your life who make you feel that way too. I know it's a tough time to be trans anywhere, especially in the UK and the US at the moment. And I hope that you are finding community and love and support. And if you're not trans out there, I hope that when you read Pratchett's work and you see those examples of non-gender conforming people, whether they're dwarfs or golems or wizards or whatever, that you think about what he's trying to say there. Because whether or not he fully understood the trans experience, and I think we can probably argue he didn't, but he captured something of its essence, it seems, because it resonates with so many people, and his essential message is always don't treat people as things, treat people as people.

And I think really if you hold that in your heart, then you know, you know what he would have thought about all of this. I mean, not for sure. He was a mystery, but I think we can guess. Anyway, please donate if you can to any of the charities that are trying to support trans people through this. There's a lot of awful things happening in the world right now.

And targeting any minority as a scapegoat for society's problems is not never the answer. So yeah, solidarity to you out there. I hope you know that you're always welcome as listeners here at Pratchat and in any of our comments, internet spaces, or if you ever see us in person. And please take our love with you and take your love of Discworld wherever you go. And may it help you find friends and make connections. This is Gabrielle Kent.

I'm a lifelong Discworld fan and co-author of Tiffany Akin's Guide to Being a Witch with Rhianna Pratchett and Paul Kidby. I just wanted to say that Discworld has always been a place where identity is complex and celebrated, and Terry Pratchett's books champion those who don't fit narrow expectations, you know, those people who question, who challenge, who fight and become the truest of selves despite it all.

Characters like Polly Perks and Cheery Little Bottom, Geoffrey, Sergeant Jackram, they show us that identity is personal and powerful. So whether you're navigating your own journey or simply finding strength in Terry's stories, please know that in this fandom you are welcome, you're valued, and you're not alone. The Disc is your world too. Hi, this is Rhianna Pratchett. My father's work has always stood for the right to be who you are, even when it feels that the world insists otherwise. Discworld celebrates outsiders, rebels, and anyone who dares to define themselves on their own terms. To all transgender fans, you will always be part of the Discworld family. Your identity is valid, your stories matter, and your love for the world my father built is deeply appreciated.

Dad believed in giving voices to those who needed it most. I will always stand by those principles and stand with you. Thank you very much to Mark Benoff of Pratchett, Gabrielle Ken, Al Kennedy from Does Ireland Disc World, Quive MacDonald, and of course the wonderful Rihanna Pratchett for those lovely messages. Little meta moment for the listeners, but while those went in, we did not sit and watch those as recording. You can tell that because we are not currently sad, emotional, rex. Yeah, this was a decision to preserve everybody's sanity. Yes.

Because we cry often and easily these days. Anyway, let's talk about the dwarves. Oh yes, let's. I'm kind of trying to blur the F and the V together because I can't remember which one we're doing. This is dwarfs-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Now, is she cheery or chéry as we start? A little bit, but well she starts as cheery. I mean she starts as he. Yes. Until we have this realization slash revelation from Angwa who points it out and immediately offers to, you know, not say anything about it. Yes.

But has obviously gets taken into confidence, which a little bit of me does still ship it as well. You know what, they're very private women and I don't think we need to know everything that happened on those nights out. Yeah, I just I support the two of them. Yeah, and I think Garrett would as well. I think he would. I think he absolutely would. But I haven't actually checked I think he would. I think he absolutely would. But I haven't actually checked fanfiction.net. No, we've checked for pairings in the past, but I think we'll maybe leave this one for now. There's AO3 I go for one stats on pairings. It's fun with Jiri and it's interesting because this is something that's just been a bit of a joke before

and it's been a long running thing, yourunning thing in fantasy, especially you look at Tolkien. It's a sausage fest when it comes to dwarves. There's even a joke about it in the Lord of the Rings movies that I think was very much a movie addition where Gimli's saying, oh, you see the women all the time. It's just that the beards are just as good as the men. And this is one of those Pratchett doing the thing where he's like, oh, I've made the joke a couple of times now and talked about how gender's none of the business. Now what if we tear that apart? Yes. Hold on. Hold on. But why?

But why? And Jiri's great because she's immediately got this attitude of like, I've come to this place where there's so much more to life than just being very much like all of the other dwarfs. And yes, Anguette says, you know, there are women, lots of women in Nightmoreport that would love to do things the dwarf way and Sherry's response is, yeah, we can do anything the men can do provided we do what the men do. Yeah, exactly what the men do. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's mental if you think about it. It's practically taking... Wow, it's really ridiculous that gender is sorted into this very rigid binary system. What happens if we half it?

Let's make that box even smaller. And it's possible to look at a cheery story especially, but then the bigger story of female dwarfs is not having some parallels to transness and the coming out process especially. Yeah, definitely. Angua, by the way, handled very well. Angua was a good ally. I don't think any of the core group took it badly, did they? No, Caren's a little bit of a dick about it because he is dwarfish. And Angua very thoroughly puts him in his place and says, you know, we've got extra

pronouns in Aincmore Pork. A progressive king, are you, Carrot? Yeah. Get your head out of your bum. But he learns really quickly. You fucking would if you had been told by Angua. Well, yeah, there is that. There's a really great moment actually kind of later on in the book where they're very much going into danger and it's Carrot and Angua and Jiri. And at this point, Carrot has accepted that Jiri is female and I was like, oh, but now I'm not sure about bringing her. Because we've been taking a... And I was like, I mean, you bring me, he's like, yeah, that's

different because you're you. I was like, you bring the other female dwarfs in the watch, there are other female dwarfs! At least three, yeah. Oh dear. We don't see many human females in the watch do we? No, you have Angwa, you have... Angwa's not human. Oh yeah that's a good point. I was about to cite Sally as well. I'm more humanoid I guess but yeah Sally also not human in the undead box. Just a note. I feel like they're maybe there, just they're side characters. Yeah. I didn't go back into Men at Arms actually in Angwa's introduction because she is very much the first female in the watch and it sort of played off as, ah, we've got to diversify so we're bringing in a troll to try to, so

dwarf, cuddy, R.I.P. and then they assume that Angua has been brought in for diversity because she's a woman. Yeah. But actually there's another flavor of diversity here. Fucking DEI in my watch. Vimes' petulant DEI attitude as well, where he starts off with like, oh, I can't believe we're making me have these bloody things in the watch. And then it's sort of like, oh, other people are being dicks about it, are they? Saying things like lesser races, are they?

I want a zombie. I want a zombie now. No, still no vampires, but like, I want a zombie. I want a zombie. I want a zombie now. No, still no vampires, but like I want a zombie. I want a gnome. It's a bit like Tiffany, not Tiffany-esque defending the witchcraft as soon as someone insults it. Yeah. I can be a dick about witchcraft. You can't be a dick about witchcraft. And while we're here, do you think werewolves could like, do you think Angra could also become a witch? Do you think werewolves could be witches? Yes.

Cool. Do you? Yeah, no, I agree. I'm glad we settled that. I thought that might be it. I think they'd have to have some fairly, they'd have to be reasonably open about it with the village they lived in for chicken reasons. Yeah, that's very true.

That's all. Yeah. That's why I hesitate. I don't think a vampire can be. I think a vampire can be a wizard. Yep, I agree. I think now I'm going into gender-ceptilism. Yeah, I think.

With the extra layer of- With undead. Yeah. I don't like that Angra as a werewolf is put into the undead category because I wouldn't say it's undead, it's more like, I mean it's supernatural, it's extra human. Well this is starting a whole genre fiction argument. Yeah that's a good point, right, before we do that let's talk about gender and the Discworld. While we're on this topic though, because obviously these are watchbooks we're talking

about which means we have a lot of representation from Lady Sybil motherfucking Vimes icon. Yes, yeah that was the other point I wanted to put in but I think it did cover it. Obviously I'm going to talk about Lady Sybil motherfucking Vimes icon to give her her full title. Yes. Blackboard monitors. Can one become a blackboard monitor by marriage? Monotrix I think. Monotrix actually. Yeah.

Yeah. Now I think Sybil has some witch potential in her as well. Oh yeah. But for a different life. Something about her ability to calm people and get on with it. She has the similar kind of the soothings. She got on really well with the Kelda. Yeah. She did really well with the Kelda. Yeah, do you know what, I'm not even sure she would be... yeah, she's more of a granny

aching type witch I think that she'd never take on the mantle. No, but she has the subtle power. Yeah. And the scene in Fifth Elephant, which obviously we'll talk about a bit, where she has reached her limit and she's very frustrated and she has been nice and she is stuck with Angla's mother and then decides to not be nice and climb out of a window. This sort of representation of this big girl everywhere who was raised to be nice and polite and kind and have a wonderful personality. There's a shared DNA with Agnes, obviously. The school she went to, what's it called? Quirm School?

It's Quirm College for Young Ladies. Yeah, does seem to churn them out like that. It does. In the... It is a very gender essentialist, old fashioned girls only school that somehow turns out the least stereotypical women you can ever think of. Yeah, it's fun Pratchett doing the because there's not a lot of like very strict continuity in chronology because ideas just turn up as they turn up.

How was that whole thing with the cylinders? Exactly. Don't worry about it. But so as early as soul music, you do have a female presenting dwarf because one of Susan's classmates is a dwarf. And I thought that was just a nice detail of they are around. And Quam College for Ladies, obviously quite progressive when it comes to dwarfs. Probably a lot easier as an aristocrat.

I think actually, you know, that kind of maps onto round world stuff, doesn't it? Some of the earliest you're doing things women aren't allowed to do, people were obviously just very rich. Like the explorers we've looked at in some of the rabbit holes about botanical illustration and things like that were very interesting and accomplished women but were allowed to be so because of their status. Yes, once you get the high enough social status, you can start then defying some of the social norms because you've got the cash behind it and at that point you're just eccentric. And if you're the granddaughter of death, who the fuck's going to say no? Exactly. If you look at it, oh god, I'm trying to think of an example now. There's a very famous house in North Wales where two very, very well-off women lived together.

And they were roommates. And they were roommates. I can't remember what the house is called or what the name is called, but it was sort of just accepted as an eccentricity because they were both very well- it was very much lesbians. It wasn't called like Sapphire? Something was there? No, it's something, Manor, it's near, no, I can't even remember the name of- I went to it because I was up in that part of North Wales and I can't remember the name of the town I was near because I'm trying

to think of it and all I can think of is Llamados. Okay, we're just going to link that in the show notes. Yeah, I will find it and link it. I'm sure if I just search lesbian house, nothing all weird will come up. Sorry, lesbian house, North Wales. Yeah. That'll narrow it down. Oh, God. Yeah, so cheery, anyway. Cheery and Feet of Clay and the coming

out stuff. And these are some of the, ooh, ooh, that tickles the thing in my brain. And especially she's having these conversations with Anger and kind of deciding whether the lipsticks overkill or the earrings or the mascara. And Angra was like, you don't have to do all of it. And Cherie's shoulders sagged with release tension. When you've made up your mind to shout out who you are to the world, it's a relief to know that you can do it in a whisper. And I'm not saying that queer people shouldn't be very loudly proud of who they are, obviously. You shouldn't feel like you have to.

Yeah. And there's a sort of some straight people and some cis people think of coming out in the way you see on TV where it's a big thing you do once and then it's kind of done when realistically it's like a constant slow process of I'm still not out about being non-binary to I'm out about being non-binary to everyone who listens to this podcast but not to some people in my own life because it kind of hasn't come up in conversation. Yeah, it is weird how separate this podcast is to quite a lot of our actual lives. Yeah. But it's also like I just never decided to have because I had a party last weekend and

had a very close friend attending the party and made a comment about being non-binary and this person was like, oh, you never told me. I thought you were just about to tell me you had a coming out party and didn't invite me. You know already. What a debutante. I know, but still. It's tempting to have one now. No, make it like a debutante presentation, but it's just me being really non-binary. No, but yeah, this close friend I've had for years was like, but you never told me. I was like, oh yeah, no, I guess I didn't on purpose. It just didn't

come up. I just thought it sort of trickled out into the ether at some point. So yeah, so I like that and it relates to there's a scene late in the Fifth Elephant and when they've been dealing with the old guard, Chiri has been very outwardly female presenting. And finally towards the end of the book, she's going to the coronation and she's wearing like ordinary dwarf clothes, even wearing trousers and Vimes is like, but you had a lovely green dress apparently and a helmet with a feather in it. And Chiri sort of has thoughts about it and it's like, yes, I know I'm free to wear whatever I want and that means I can wear whatever I want and I don't have to wear the

dress to be female and that's very relatable to me as someone who sort of figured out oh I'm non-binary that means I must stop looking femme all the time and then went... Yeah, and yet you out femme me on every occasion where you feel like... Yeah, because I actually know I can still wear all of my clothes and do things the way I want. It doesn't actually change who I am. Exactly. It does admittedly sometimes mean I need to wear a badge or bring it up in conversation because friends have had for years and may not be aware. Yes.

Swings and roundabouts. It's a very complicated thing. There's a much deeper conversation about the weird mix of passing privilege versus that means I have to come out all of the fucking time. What are the non-binary flat colours? It's like grey, black, white and yellow. No, purple, black, grey and yellow. Okay, yeah, no, bisexual colour is still going to be easier for that painting. Okay, cool. Yeah, that's fair. I have a lovely kind of macrame hanging art piece that a friend gave me ages ago that has all of the non-binary flag colours barring the yellow and I keep

meaning to just add some yellow wool to it. That friend had no idea I was non-binary and just went, oh, this is kind of your colour. It's like, ah, the signs were there. Maybe not so much the macramé art piece is the way I find characters like Cherry Littlebosom very intensely relatable. The signs were there, she says, falling off their chair. That's how we learned about bisexuality. Listen, Jo went to a Catholic school. Oh yeah. Everything comes off Tumblr memes.

I did not learn that I was bisexual until I had been very much acting on bisexuality for like three or four years because I didn't have a word for it. Sin. Sin, sin, yes, no., guilt, guilt. Thumbs up. Big fans of sin here on the, well, some sin. Some sins. Not, not treating people as things. No. But being bisexual. Not coveting thy neighbour's oxen. Well, it depends on the oxen. Like, sometimes you can't help but have a cheeky little covert. As a treat.

As a treat. Where the fuck were we? The fifth elephant. Thank you. We're talking about the fifth elephant, which I have lots of feelings about because it's a really good book. It is a really good book. I fucking love that book. I'll tell you what, that's probably going to be the next one I reread, even though it's back in the middle of an arc.

Gloomy and purposeless trousers of Uncle Vanya. Beautiful. The best item of gladiator. I should really read some Russian literature now I'm not like contractually bound to read a Pratchat every month. I mean I can always recommend Anna Karenina but that's mostly because I like to show off that I've read Tolstoy. I know how that ends. Like that one Tolstoy. Yeah no he is quite depressing. It's beautiful. Very depressing. Grab some Dostoevsky that'll be cheerier. Yeah, no, he is quite depressing. It's beautiful. Very depressing. Grab some Dostoevsky. That'll be cheerier. Okay. I feel like if you're looking for not-depressing books, like maybe go... No, Russia's the wrong place to go. Maybe come further west from the scene. Or further east, just not Russia. Just not Russia. If you're going to be east, don't be cold. Yeah, go down a bit, or it's

warmer. Right, yeah, the fifth elephant. We'll get there eventually. We were vaguely there. We wanted to put us a cherry orchard. We're in a tree. My trousers, they're frozen. It's really nice because you start seeing the broader impact of these attitudes and how it's changed in Outmore Pork versus how slow that spread has been. And Outmore Pork is still slow, like Cheery is kind of the first outwardly female presenting dwarf that's really people are aware of in the city. And it talks about it changing slightly generationally now that all parents are realizing they've got daughters. Shocking. And sometimes those daughters have visible

knees. I'm also not entirely okay with the aging process on dwarves, like how long they live, the longevity. So it may be that the generational change is also just slower than we would expect. Yeah, very much so. I do think they are implied to be slightly longer lived. They certainly are in Tolkien. Yes, so let's assume they are here as well. And then you start seeing the impact of, because Chiri is so normal to the watch and just is one of the girls, for want of a better saying, so you have a scene like after the Willenders Pass incident where Sybil breaks down and is very upset.

Sorry, not laughing at Sybil, just the pun. And so she goes up to one of the bedrooms and Vimes sends Cheery with her. So she has another woman keeping her company, but everyone is scandalized in the pub because the lone dwarves in the pub are horrified that there is a female presenting dwarf. And to everyone else in the pub, Vimes is just sending a man to go be alone in a bedroom with his wife and that is a horrific thing. Which, thinking about that in the context of, you know, allowing a woman to be in a safe space, who is a totally safe woman to be around. Yeah, I was also going to say, like, obviously we're out in the country here and no one knows

anyone, but as the like core watch group as well, I don't think there's any scandal in sending any of them to look after Simmel for a minute. Yeah. Although, of course, Nobby or Fred would wait outside the door. Yes. And there is an idea here of him specifically sending Cheery for the sake of feminine comfort, but no one else is seeing it that way. Yeah.

And that was a very interesting thing to read with modern context or current context. Yeah. But yeah, Show Thymes is very much on board by this point. It doesn't take much for Vines to get on board really. Not consciously as well as consciously. Obviously, he's making the effort with things like the, put your tiny dress on if you like, but also just like a, yes, woman up. Yeah. You are women now. Yes. He's got a very simple categorization system. I'm imagining him like BBC Sherlock thing, kind of, but much simpler.

And then Nobby's just like over there somewhere. Question mark, question mark, question mark. I didn't have time to go into Nobby's early in the book, Gender Struggles, where he's taken to dressing as a woman for the sake of the traffic police, because I feel like the storyline kind of dies off a bit in favour of Colin going mad. Yes. But I do like Nobby ending up, we talked about this a fair bit with Jingo, Nobby ending up in women's clothing happens in more than one book and it always reads at first like it's the her-her man in dress played for a laugh and it's very quickly goes into a deeper exploration of a novelist's issues. Nobby's empathy. Nobby's very extreme empathy.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. It's played like this panto thing or like an early 80s skit until suddenly Nobby's like, actually, Fred, the women here have a lot of important things to say. And if you could stop commenting on my gauzy outfit for one minute, Shimmy. I mean, it's a lovely gauzy outfit. It's beautiful. Even though Nobby.

He should be able to Shimmy and opine at the same time. Well, quite, Betty. And towards the end of Fifth Elephant, we have Dee, and the kind of revelation of why Dee has been behaving the way she has as she finally breaks down. She calls Cheery abominable and says she's flaunting herself and where is it? Everyone is doing it and you do nothing. Why should they be allowed to do this? And then I can't. And Cheery has this immediate, oh, right, I'm going to go talk to her. Yeah, this takes a different kind of conversation I see, right? And it's, but again, it's the immediate empathy thing is, oh, here is someone who has been exactly

where I am, but not had, and we're using the word luxury very loosely here, but has not had the luxury or the privilege of being in Ankh-Morpork where they can to a certain extent. Yeah. And not had the, you can say, luxury of having supportive friends to help along. Yeah. And again, seeing as a parallel to a kind of coming out narrative to a kind of trans narrative of, oh, God, I'm seeing someone else get to have gender euphoria and I don't get to have that and I don't get to experience it and I don't see a way out of it. And the way it causes Dee to lash out and obviously do very harmful things, but almost in an understandable way.

God forbid a girl has a hobby. Right. But I was thinking about it in the context of like Dragon Age, Veilguard, which is obviously a game I played through a lot when it came out because I love Dragon Age. There's a non-binary character. Is that the new character? Yes. And there's a non-binary character who figures out their non-binary as the game goes along. It's occasionally a bit heavy-handed, but a lot of the rising rank awareness and especially non-binaryness is really good in the game and it's really

fun to play a game where I get to be non-binary and make my character say things about that. But there is a great scene where before this character has come out or realized this about themselves, they're sort of arguing with someone else about why she dresses a certain way. And then this character very calmly says, Tash, Tash, do you like being a woman? And this character goes, no, no one likes being a woman. And you get kind of, you should just go, right, oh, here's the conversation we need to have. And it's that same moment. Yeah, you get those like, you know, less wholesome but still are moments on like when you see conservatives on social media sometimes, don't you?

Yeah. Obviously, all of us have gay thoughts and urges, but we just ignore them. And a bunch of people going, ah, now. Some people barely have any. Some people apparently don't have gay thoughts. I feel like zero gay thoughts is probably unlikely. Yeah, I know, I feel like we've all had a gay thought. I'm not a great measure of normal number of gay thoughts. No. The older I'm getting, the more I'm thinking maybe I'm not either.

It's just comparative. Right. What we need is a graph. Where's my benchmark? That's the thing you never really know. Bisexual, George. Has 8,000 gay thoughts a day and should not be counted. This is the problem with being a non-binary bisexual as well, at what point are my thoughts always gay and always straight

and straight as queer? We've talked about this, yeah. I've worried about it to be honest. What about how gay my thoughts are? No, no, just at what point am I talking about your bisexuality and what point your non-binary? And really I'm just worried about the flags clashing, Joanna, you know it's that. Well, at least they've both got purple in, so there is some kind of visual carryover. Yeah, good, yeah, good. Anyway, let's talk about Reese slash Bloodwyn. Bloodwyn, what a name.

Bloodwyn, a beautiful name. I know I'm sort of dead naming here, but I'm also talking about the character as they're presented in the book. Yes. So we have this little moment at the end of the fifth elephant of the King saying to Jiri, do let me know the name of your dressmaker, I might have some custom for him in full course, which is a- Extremely regal way of coming out. Yes. And it's quiet and no one's really sure if they've heard it, but it's enough. And then,

you know, that then sits in the books. I can't remember what number Fifth Elephant is, but it's somewhere around the 20 mark. Yeah, we're in the middle. Yeah. So it sits there for nearly 20 books before we get to raising steam and you then get this small moment of it's Simnel's mother picking up on it first and then eventually Moist putting it together and having this conversation and the low king saying, actually I am the low queen, but then it doesn't need to be public knowledge right now. And by the end of the book, you get this huge coming out moment. And it's a wonderful bit of, I'm no longer the low king. You don't have to step down.

I'm not stepping down. I'm the low queen. My name is Blodgwood. Stepping up, motherfuckers. And the excellent line, and if you think your Queen is not as good a ruler as your King, do you really believe your mother was inferior to your father? Which dropping a quick banger as we go in. And Albrechtson responding, yeah, I would have really hated that not that long ago, but I've learned a lot and changed and I absolutely support you as Queen. Yep, Albrechtson was a hell of a redemption arc. Very much so.

Yeah, redemption arc of a beautifully thrown axe. Perfect. Thank you. But I like the small moments Pratchett puts in of kind of gender affirmation with these characters, so for Bloodwen, for the low Queen, it's Sybil saying, I must write to her. There's like this very gender affirmation now she is out as a woman. She is immediately in Sybil's circle. She's on the list. Yeah, she's on the list of people, of women that Sybil keeps in touch with. And I think she'd be delighted because I think the list of women Sybil keeps in touch with is significantly longer than the list of women Sybil wants to touch with is significantly longer than the list of women

Sybil wants to keep in touch with. Exactly. And I like those little moments of, oh yeah, I do feel gender and gender being affirmed in some way. It's like the little delight I get when I get they'd or, you know, I started a D&D game with a couple of friends and without saying anything, the friend who knows me a bit better because the other person doesn't know me at all just started referring to my character as they them as well and at no point asked what gender my character was just assumed was probably non-binary. Do you prefer the they them? I like both but sometimes a they them, an unexpected they them is a bit of a delight.

Probably a bit of a seasoning, okay. Yeah because I don't get it as often so there's like there's a bit of novelty to it okay um and quickly before we go on to our next bit unseen academically and uh madame shan and pepe i feel just need a mention just i just gender all over the shop yeah so much literal shot yes um Yes. Madam Sian described as, just a beautiful quick bit of description throwing in here, extremely expansive around the waist and wearing a breastplate so beautifully hammered and ornamented that taking it into battle would be an act of artistic vandalism. And the description is he, and you had to remember all dwarves were he unless they asserted otherwise. And

then a little bit later she says, as I'm king of my mind I declare I am queen of my mind yes and then that's taken care of and she's she'd the rest of the way and I think it's nice how that's written um you know Pepe's I've forgotten the exact wording here but was it Pepe who was talking to, fuck me, what's the main character called? Julia, Glenda. Julia, Glenda. Glenda? Glenda, one of those. Yeah. But basically, there's no easy way to describe our gender and sexuality or whatever's going on here. MADAM in describing him says, Pepe is Pepe and there is no changing him, or as it were, or her.

Labels are such unhelpful things. Thank you, there it is. And then Pepe has the interesting extra layer of also being a converted dwarf who joined him, wasn't assigned dwarf at birth. Yes. And it also has very different character when front of house and back of house.

Yes, the sort of smarmy performative and then the lobbing clout accent, I think it's lobbing clout, somewhere like that. In my head it's a little bit Scouse even though most of the sort of like common and air quotes for listeners are accents in Aint More Borg, my picture is East London. But I feel like we can throw some scouts in. I've been watching Jack play Kingdom Come Deliverance too a lot, obviously. And I quite like the way everyone just has a random accent. I do like random accents in things. Yeah, whatever. We're not pretending that everyone here is Bohemian or Aincmore Porkian or whatever Porchean or whatever

I guess. Just an accent. Chug an accent at them and hope for the best. Take an accent out the hat. Okay, that's your accent for today. I do like that all the northerners had northern accents in Game of Thrones. I don't watch that, yeah. I'm glad they did too.

My partner and now me as well are both playing Claire Obscura at the moment, which just in general recommend 10 out of 10. Beautiful game. It's a newish, it's fantasy-ish, the aesthetic and a lot of it is Belle Epoque inspired, so very French and gorgeous and really interesting story. I won't go into it in lots of detail. Claire Obscura, which is the French term for Chiaroscuro, which I don't think I'm saying right. Chiaroscuro, which is the French term for Chiaroscuro, which I don't think I'm saying right, Chiaroscuro. Chiaroscuro. Yeah, you know that interplay of light and shadow and fancy art terms. Expedition 33.

But all the voice actors are mostly English, like Charlie Cox. Very weird because the lead character in it is voiced by Charlie Cox but looks like Robert Pattinson. But yeah, they obviously speak quite a lot of French in the game and you can very much tell there's English people speaking French. Apparently the French dub is beautiful. But yes, the English-French accents sound very English. Oh, is it very outrageously French? No it very outrageously French English or like a... No, it's like random French words thrown into a conversation. The word putain is used repeatedly at one point and it sounds very odd from some of the accents. I tell that with various levels of training. We've gone off topic.

Have we? Which is so unlike us, I know. Gosh, what's gone wrong with us recently? But yeah, I mean, by the time we get to Unseen Academicals, the kind of comfortable way in which Fracture is writing about these gender differences is very apparent. And it's interesting because it's not just like, oh, he has probably learned a lot. He's obviously met lots of people from lots of different walks of life. He's probably met lots of people with lots of different gender identities,

especially when you've come this far from equal rights. Not that people with other gender identities didn't exist in the 80s. I just don't know how much Pratchett was socializing with them. Or how open they were about it. Yeah, also that, we're in Section 28 territory there, aren't we? Yay! Thumbs down on Section 28. Yeah, no, sorry. Sorry, yeah, that was a sarcastic thumb-tap. Well as Monstrous Regiment teaches us, this thumbs-up gesture can also mean I hope your donkey explodes and we very much hope that section 28's donkey explodes.

I believe that is a fair curse. Yeah, but my point is that Pratchett has probably learned a lot from people he's met, but he's obviously thought about this and let this bubble and grow and expand and it's very interesting to see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can, oh god. I mean, obviously we talked about it at length in the last third of our entire podcast, but yeah, just watching these ideas come to fruition for the last 10, 15 books. Yeah, especially. Like, hey, we watched that idea seed like a couple of years ago in our timeline.

Yes, we saw the seed of that idea and look at this blossoming logical conclusion. Speaking of blossoming logical conclusions, should we talk about Monstrous Regiment? Yeah. Yeah. That was a great segue. No. I tried. Yes, I'm very enthusiastic to talk about Monstrous Regiment. No, I'm not sure it's logical. There's not a it's logical.

There's not a lot of logical conclusions. But like, in brackets, complimentary, because I don't do well with logic. Being a mere woman. That's a little binary person. Unfortunately, being a lot of other things I am, I'm also not great with people. So what the fuck am I going to do? Right, yeah, Monstrous Regiment.

Which I'm really excited to talk about in case no one notes this from the other three episodes we did on that. I really, really love this book. We'll link to those episodes specifically, I think, in the show notes. We can't link to every episode where we've talked about gender, but we'll link to those. Yes, we had a lot of fun talking about that. And we talked about more than just gender because the book is about more than just gender. Yeah, we talked about birds and the color red and the horrors of war and propaganda. Yeah, propaganda, power of belief.

We were shipping a vampire and then... Validizer and Polly. Yeah, yeah. It was good for you episodes that I enjoyed that. It was good for you episodes. I skipped those episodes, or possibly during those episodes and I forgot I said it, but I have learnt that the whole putting itching powder in the enemy's drawers thing, drawers like Nicka's drawers, was a real thing in World War Two. That happened.

Yeah, that's a delight to me. To the German set, isn't it? Yeah, I learnt that from one of the No Such Thing as Pitch episodes, obviously. That's where I learnt almost everything. Yeah, I learned that from one of the No Such Thing as Pitchf. So obviously that's where I learned almost everything. Yeah, good stuff. Right. So yeah, let's talk about monstrous regimen and gender. And it's really fun because it's messy and complicated and it doesn't really posit like women good, men bad. It goes how thinking of women and how thinking of men, quite often, quite bad. Yeah. Women can be good, like is the surprise thing to a lot of the people in this context, isn't it?

Yes. And this book, as we talk about, you know, watching Pratchett build on all of these ideas and it grows bigger and bigger, the way this builds on all the stuff that came before, it goes back to this kind of equal rights idea of what does it mean to be a girl and what kind of power comes with that, but in a very different way. It's also quite interesting that this is a dwarf free book, pretty much. They turn out carrying cabbages near the end, but apart from that. Yeah. Is Cheery around? No, Cheery's not even Yeah. Is cheery around? No, cheery's not even around.

No, Ang was around and buggy swires. But no, pretty dwarf-free, which I think is- We were told that the dwarves skid out of left because of Nuggan's nonsense, didn't we? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's a plot hole. I just think it's interesting that sort of gone, oh, I'm going to explore this idea, so I'll do it without also adding in dwarf relationships to gender,

which is like a whole other kettle of fish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have an idea of what I want to explore here. Let's stick to that. Yeah. And there's this interesting idea here of, does someone actually want to change gender or how do they want to change how their gender is treated? Yes, yeah. And how their gender exists. There's so many bad faith arguments about that nowadays, that it is, I think, important to kind of reclaim part of that conversation, at least, isn't it? Yeah. This book does it, well, this book does it before that.

Before that conversation. That it became quite so public. But yeah. I think it does it, well this book does it before that. Before that conversation. That became quite so public. But yeah. I think it does it very well. But it's, how gender is seen in this particular society, obviously it's sexist. You need to build off that basis of sexism for the story to work. So you have things like once Polly learns to sword fight in the bar, she stays clumsy long after she's got a hang of it because using a sword is not something women are meant to do. She'd be funny just as long as she was useless and safe as long as she was funny. Yeah. Same thing, I think a lot of women learned about being educated enough to do the accounts on a farm, not so educated you drew the attention of anybody.

Yes, because obviously then you're a witch and must be banned to the stake. And when Polly's thinking about the old women, she's thinking about this idea of would it be better if women were in charge and she thinks, well no. If you think about old women and these sort of curtain-twitching old women that watch you, they had eyes like hawks, they could practically see through walls and men took notice because no man wanted to cross them in case they started watching him. Whenever there was an execution and especially a whipping, you found the grannies in the front rows sucking peppermints. Oh, a little bit of a now we've read tight as grown, a little bit of an echo of-

Oh, fuchsia. Fuchsia, thank you. Little echo of fuchsia, just hating old people, not hating old things. But I think in Polly with this as well is she's sort of frustrated by how women have already been kind of running a lot of the world she lives in and it's not for the better because they're almost more obsessive about the status quo. If you think back to her relationship with her mother who passed away and how her mother was so devout and how frustrating that was for Polly to be grown up with because she couldn't do things like allow her brother to paint pictures of birds.

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's kind of, what is it, fish-eyed useless Duchess on the wall. Yeah and the Duchess being this sort of weird thing where she's very much a symbol of power and it's safe that she's just a symbol of power because she's not actually there doing any powering because the Duchess actually existed and was still alive and trying to rule in any way, not as this weird godly presence speaking through the mouth of a teenage girl who's just been through hell. I don't think she would have been taken very seriously. No, no, precisely. Yeah. When she when she's dead, she can say whatever the ruling class want her to say.

And it's Polly having... When Polly's at the brothel and she sort of talks to the girls working at the brothel and saying why do you do this and they say you know it's safe, it's not a bad thing for us to live with and Polly thinks of it as if you don't have an officer you get taken over by an officer and a woman by herself is missing a man while a man gets to be his own master and it's this idea of it hasn't occurred to women that they can be in charge. Like later on Shafdie's saying, oh, I don't want someone to find out I'm pregnant, so I'll get taken away. And Polly's like, you've got a weapon. You now don't have to let them take you away.

Which does of course oversimplify it. But yeah's very much so. It's this idea of an echo of the societal change they're going to try and make yeah. Yeah the idea of once you get trousers you are free from this weird overseen thing. Yeah socks or no socks? Socks or no socks. The two genders. And yeah the book plays with a different flavour of gender essentialism which is like leaning into some of the gender stereotypes and some of it's just silly little stuff, like a woman always has half an onion left over. Which to be fair, you know, the most feminine thing about me is that I always have half an onion left over. I just use the whole onion. I never use the other half of an onion.

I will chop the whole onion and then put in what I need and I have a freezer bag for onion I've chopped and used. That's a good idea, why haven't I done that? But yes, having some frozen chopped onion, very handy. Anyway, the other... I've just started composting by the way. Oh fun! A lot of my vegetable waste is going now, yep. You can tell I'm nearing my mid-30s. I've been considering composting, I will be honest. It might happen. A little bit of compost. Anyway, no, sorry, we're gonna go off. What the fuck were we talking about? Socks. Socks, gender essentialism and gender stereotypes. So you have Polly a little bit annoyed that they were so taken in by her being a boy once they'd all worked out the others were girls and she was like, well, I haven't cleaned my fingernails and I can belch and fart and there's lots of that later on Blau saying, you can't pass

for girls, you will pass wind and look a bit too happy about it. There's very much a thing boys do that girls don't do sort of idea. And you get the specifics of the vampire side of it where Maledyta finally comes out as female to Polly once it's sort of all been resolved. And vampires have a pretty good time with it, whatever, but if you use velvet dresses and underwired nightgowns and bathing in virgins, you get more taken in more seriously if they think you're male. It's unfortunately true of the gothic novelists. It is very true for the gothic novelists. But yeah, so when you go into realizing that characters like General Frock and everything have been living this lie and came up as girls.

General Frock, who'd have thought it, sorry. General frock. And Jackram confronting them and realizing, oh you didn't know about each other. Yeah. You all thought you were alone, you're more than a third of the country's high command, what could you have done if you'd worked together? And asked Mildred, you know, how many did you spot and did you promote them if they were as good as men? I promoted them if they were better than men. And Jacrim thinks on it more later, it's like, oh, I expected better of them. The problem is they were better than men at being like men. And this idea of, well, I've made it to the safe thing. Pull up the ladder behind me. Yeah. It becomes very individualistic, which is what happens when society forces a divide on you. It becomes very every woman for herself.

Yeah. And in these women's cases, they were playing a character that was perhaps slightly exaggerated even. Yeah, again, leaning into the... And then forcing this arms race. Yeah. Yeah. When you lean into the stereotypes you're imitatingitating how far do you go with it? I think that's why it's very interesting with Jacrim being a different kettle of fish in a way because Jacrim doesn't lean into a stereotype in any way, Jacrim simply is.

Yes, Jacrim does seem to be trans. Yes. Not pretending. Well, I think I made a mistake when we talked about it before. I said like, Jackram isn't pronoun or only gets he pronouns, but for a chunk of this bit, Jackram in the edition I was reading anyway does get she her pronouns. But I, yeah, but I would assume Jackram is a trans man. But that's because it was used as a narrative device, wasn't it?

Because Jackram was she her through like that bit and then it returned to when he was happier in his decision. But yeah, I read Jackram as more of a trans male character. And in your gender affirmations on a postcard from Skritz. Exactly. And it's a wonderful moment when Polly almost gives him permission, Jackram saying, oh, I'm not going to go find my son who wants some gobby old lady turning up and she's like, well, a sergeant in a shiny carriage with like, you get to still be Sergeant Jackram. We might all be coming out as girls and they might let girls in in our silly girly uniforms. But that doesn't mean you have to stop being anyone but Jackram. And there's a different kind

of weight lifted and freedom for Jackram in that, that I think is really beautiful. Yeah. Yes, Jackrum definitely one of my favourite one-shot characters. Yes. Just real unique as well. There's no echoes of this, that or the other in him really. I think we've talked about, this reminded me of Crumb a bit afterwards because he's such a force. And like I said, talking about the two different flavours of sergeant, this is the military sergeant as opposed to the colon, police sergeant.

Sargenting is a very specific flavour. But they're both, Sargenting is a very specific flavour. Oh yes. And yeah, and then you get this kind of overwhelming patronising ending, this idea of the women being kind of mascotty characters. You've done well for girls. This really clanged back to reality and it was so well done. It was so well received. And when they're given the girls' barracks and people are falling over themselves to

bring in pillows and firewood. Yeah, yeah. It's like when NASA sent women to space and were like, do you need 100 tampons for a week? Does that sound right? Is that normal? A shout out to DeWerd who sort of comes to Polly and says, so General Frock said, you're a credit to the women of your country. Do you want to comment? And Polly is, and I'm pretty sure Deward knows exactly how Polly feels about that.

I think they're saccharissa. Yeah. I wish saccharissa had been in this book. Yeah. I think again, though, it adds that extra layer, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, they get the nice moment of Polly meeting Angua that I love, because it's kind of, oh, you're a woman and in power and possibly- And look at my lovely hair. And have gorgeous hair. And you're a werewolf. Women really can have it all. As long as they buy the, what was it, good girl shampoo.

As long as they buy the, what was it, good girl shampoo. Good girl flea shampoo. And Polly's sort of thinking, oh, you know, we were mascots, we were temporary until things break out again. And Polly sort of goes, you don't have to stay that way though. Yeah. And sort of, yeah, off we go. I'll put the skirt on with the bum roll over the trousers. Yeah.

I'll offer these very sweet young lads an option to join up in whichever direction they fancy. Oh, I like to think in the Discworld, the Scort was just coincidentally named after a general somewhere in the... General Scort. Yeah, General Scort. Commander Scort. I think that's really likely. coincidentally named after a general somewhere in the... General Scott. Yeah, General Scott. Commander Scott. I think that's fairly likely. Yeah. The mix between shorts and skirt, is it? Well, you'd think, but... But! And yeah, Polly's conclusion at the very end of the book, the enemy wasn't men or women

or the old or the dead, it was stupid people who came in all varieties and no one has the right to be stupid. Oh man. That feels like that. I know this all came straight from Pratchett. We're talking about Terry Pratchett books, but that felt very Pratchett. That felt very Pratchett. There's granny weather likes popping their head in at the end there. And yeah, this book spends time exploring the idea of gender and the way it does it is really fascinating as a gender I don't want to kind of person. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. That's a delight. Anyone want to just regiment thoughts?

Not really. No, I think it's pretty well covered. No, sorry. I tried to be normal about it. I did try. I think you were. I think I'd be mostly normal. I think my one other mention has to be to the little Joan of Arc parallel. Oh yeah. As one of the greatest, saddest, well-known gender stories in the world. That is very true. It's about whenever anyone mentions Joan of Arc now, I think of Chappellrone. That'd be amazing, that really good Joan of Arc outfit. Right, we're definitely going to wander away from the topic. So in general conclusion on this gender on the Disque episode. Genderal conclusion.

Genderal conclusion. Oh, we've got to stop francing. Isn't that Terry Pratchett? Good writer. He is. Thank goodness he wrote this, not us. God. Could you imagine? He just brought goodness he wrote this not us guys. Just four mantos from here to breakfast. No. No. I saw which line you were remembering. Yep. Anyway, I think that's all we're gonna say for now about gender. I mean,

was that literally your conclusion was that one bullet point isn't that Terry Frederick good? Yeah. Fantastic. Sorry, did you think I had more? Well, usually it does denote a longer ramble. But no, I think we did cover it pretty well. Yeah. Yeah, I think we've covered it fairly. I mean, there's still a ton more I could say, but especially as this is

coming out on video, I don't think this needs to be a two hour episode. No. Listeners and viewers, we would love to hear your thoughts on gender in Discworld though. Yeah. You can... Please get in touch with us in the... Send us a gender affirming postcard from the Town of Skrits. Please.

As we wind away towards the end of the episode then, I'd like to very much thank all of our extra wonderful contributors. Don't forget Mark Burroughs, marvellous man, buy his books, read his books, especially The Magic of Terry Pratchett and he's touring his new show The Britpop Hour at the moment so go see that. This is definitely the most voices we've had on an episode isn't it? This is by far the most voices we've had in an episode. I think we're rivaling our crossover, our big crossover on Eric. Ben from Pratchett, go check out Pratchett, our sister Australian podcast, sibling Australian podcast. Wonderful Gabrielle Kent, co-writer of Tiffany Akin's Guys Being a Witch, who has a new book coming out in July, Ranny reports on the tropical island treasure. It does sound really good. It does sound really good. Al Kennedy from Desert Island Discworld now completed and also co-host

of House to Astonish, the world's ninth longest running comics podcast. Fantastic, I'm glad you're keeping Tally-al, I'm not surprised but I'm glad. The wonderful C.K. Macdonald, author of the fantastic Stranger Time series, the Bunny McGarry detective books and just all around good egg, what a good egg. Yeah and a big Discworld fan obviously. Big Discworld, no. Go check out our interview with him and then go read the Stranger Times books if you haven't already, what are you doing? And of course that needs no introduction but Rihanna Pratchett, pretty cool. Pretty cool. We like her. Thank you.

Yeah. Other co-author of Tiffany O'Keefe's Kind of Being a Witch, among other, lots of other things. Go check out all of her work. Big trans rights activist and... Excellent human. Helped raise a lot of money recently in an auction to that end. Yeah.

That first edition of Monstrous Regiment went for quite a lot. Yeah, no, I saw that, yeah. Wonderful for that charity. Yes. Not so wonderful for me wanting it. No, I mean, we have to be realistic. Yeah, no, I was never going to let myself get as carried away in the bidding as I possibly could have for that.

I think that's all we're going to say today. We are going to be back next month, hopefully on or close to the 10th of June with our review of V.E. Schwab's new book, Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil, which I'm very excited to talk about. In the meantime, of course, dear listeners, as well as sending us gender affirming postcards from the Town of Skrits, you can of course join our Discord. There's a link down below. Follow us on Instagram at the true shall make ye fret and please sky at make ye fret pod. On Facebook at the true shall make ye fret, join us on our website at rslash ctsmyf, email us your thoughts, queries, castles and snacks

at the true shall make ye fret pod at gmail dot com and if you want to support us financially you can go to patreon dot com forward slash the true shall make ye fret and exchange your hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And until next time, dear listener, don't let us detain you. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Cool. Okay, have a lovely rest of your evening. I will, and I will see you on Sunday. I'll see you on Sunday.

Love, love. Bye, love, love. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye, cool. Cool. Okay, have a lovely rest of your evening. I will, and I will see you on Sunday. I'll see you on Sunday. Love, love. Bye, love, love. Bye.