The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 34: Moving Pictures Pt.3 (Classic Cinematic Climax)

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan-Young and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Moving Pictures”. Apocryphal Anecdotes! Spongy Death! Snacks! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail] to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Avatar: The Last Airbender (TV Series 2005–2008) - IMDbThe Birth of a Nation - WikipediaHow 'The Birth of a Nation' Revived the Ku Klux Klan - History.comBonus: Reaction to NYCC 2020 The Watch (Discworld 'Inspired' TV Show) Panel - YouTubeCinema fans say it again, Sam - The IndependentFred Astaire & Ginger Rogers: Let's Face the Music and Dance - YouTubeClaire Rayner - WikipediaPolynesian Stick Charts - The NonistA Serial Killer's Guide to Life (2019) - IMDbKing Kong (1933)- Climbing the Empire State Building Scene - YouTubeMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

So you broke me and I've watched the first 11 or 12 episodes of Avatar the last day of Ender. Yay! I've been re-watching it as well. Because clearly this started the day before yesterday, I got pretty into it. What have you watched, sorry? I've started re-watching it as well, so I think I'm at about the same point as you. Oh cool, yeah. So I like the Flying Yack Buffalo Bison. He's a bison. Bison, sorry. He's a sky bison. Sorry, of course he is. I like what they've done with the animals and it's interesting because it shares a name with Avatar the Bad Film who do this thing with animals where they take earth animals and makes them just slightly different but it's rubbish there and it's really good in the cartoon.

It is amazing. I like their four winged penglings. Wait till you meet the platypus bears. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. I even like the Eagle Rhinos. Oh the Eagle Rhinos are great. Yeah, Cat Helen Rhinos. Yeah, no, it's a very good cartoon. As usual, the slight gunning and over expression of anime annoys me and the kind of fun sarcasm stereotypical boy stuff or whatever but that's because it's a kids show and I can accept that. Mainly, I think the artwork is just fucking beautiful and I'm quite happy to watch it for the last. It's very pretty. Soccer does eventually get force-fed, respect women juice in a really good way. I saw him get beaten up by a bunch of girls. Yeah, the Warriors of Kyoshi are great.

Yeah, yeah. I love Suki. I'm very much looking forward to your thoughts on how did you describe him? Baldi Ponytail Boy. Oh, yeah, him. Yeah, he's Baldi Ponytail and then there's Damvote Boy. Damvote Boy, yeah. Being Ang. Yeah. Angry Sideburns guys, generals out. Yeah, this is really rubbish for our listeners who have never seen Avatar the last day. Well, now you'll know how I've felt for the last two years. Which really isn't their fault, obviously, so I don't know why. I think really our listeners should all watch it as well. That can be their homework. Cool. So we've actually got quite a lot of podcast-y stuff to podcast about this week,

so should we launch more or less straight into? Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to the Two Shall Make He Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one at a time, in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part three of our discussion of moving pictures. The final part in the trilogy, the climax, one with all the expensive special effects and a weirdly long journey to Mordor, considering like how you meant to make it the most exciting one, but fine. Yeah, God. That dragged. Maybe it's just because I had like the long edition. Yeah, when I rewatched all of the extended editions in one day, by the time it got to

the end of Return of the King, and I was a bit like, how many fucking endings does this film have? Yeah, absolutely. But how many endings does this book have, though? Yes. This is very feature-length film in that respect. Spoiler warning us? Yes. This is a Spoiler Light podcast, obviously heavy spoilers for the book we're on, Moving Pictures. We are going to reveal the ending in this episode. But we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series, and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the

journey with us. On an ethereal movie magic horse across a desert with a camera following you. Yes, and some camels. Yes, always the camels. Always the camels. Anything to follow up on, Francine? Yeah, so I actually did my homework for once. Last week, I was saying something vague about an early movie that was racist, and I couldn't remember what it was, and it was before gone with the wind. It's called Birth of a Nation, which I should have remembered because Jack talked about it at length as he watched it. I did not watch it because it was three hours long. It was the first 12 real film. It was released in 1915, and it was a landmark in film history. Okay, so it's like it pioneered techniques like close-ups, like fade-outs, had a musical score

for an orchestra for the first time, and it was unfortunately also largely responsible for the massive resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan in the early 20th century. So yeah, so by 1915, the KKK had been almost wiped out. They'd been heavily suppressed by the government. But this film, the kind of awful way that black people were portrayed, especially in contrast to the heroic noble way the KKK members were portrayed, led some prominent twats to rallying around the film, and kind of used it as propaganda to bolster refounding the KKK. And so from almost zero, the Klan grew to millions by the mid-20s, and historians do put a large portion of the blame on this film. So it's worth watching if you've got the patience. I watched bits and pieces,

and it's interesting, but it is horrifying at the same time. I could not have sat there and watched the whole thing, even if I had the attention span. Yeah, I'm not sure. I've got the emotional bandwidth. Bandwidth, like a sandwich. I don't have a sandwich. Not a hand bandwidth. But anyway, yeah, so that's that. That's what I was trying to remember and did not. Yeah, well, I'm glad you remembered. Thank you. Dispatches from the round world. Yay, people contacted us. Yes, people have spoken to us. There's lots of feedback on the conversation we recorded about the watch panel. Our hour-long grab. Yeah, before I go into that, though, Stacey on Instagram may have pointed out that I made a

little mistake. When I was talking about how much I fancy Lauren Bacall and Gentleman Preferblons, I meant Jane Russell. Oh, okay. Lauren Bacall was in House Maria Millionaire. I mean, Lauren Bacall is still stunning, but I was particularly talking about the absolutely stunning Jane Russell. Yes, I do fancy both of them. Okay, good, good. But I did mix up my silver screen stylists there. I'm glad someone can call you out on these things, because obviously I cannot. Yeah. Andy on Twitter mentioned about Jaws that one of the other reasons you don't see a shark a lot is because the shark also kept breaking and was constantly being repaired. The more I learned about this film, the more I like it.

And reminded us that Marina and the Diamonds Hollywood is 10 years old, so I'm ancient. Is it now? Yep. God, still working amazingly. On when we were talking about grief the other day and this idea of focusing on really tiny details, we don't remember what to look that from. Yeah, sorry. Eventually remembered that it was from Equal Rights, and it is when Esk is very focused on the blanket that her mother made when she thinks that Granny has passed away. Cool, cool. Okay. Luckily, Granny ate and dead. She ate indeed. And Rianne, back on the actual watch thing, has pointed out that there's about 17-year age gap

between Laura Rossi, who is playing Civil Vimes, and Richard Dormer, who is playing Sam Vimes. Somebody can use Google properly. Yep. Thank you for doing our research for us. And yes, that is kind of gross. I'm not saying like all age gaps are bad. Not the worst, but it's no. Yeah. Hashtag not all age gaps, just like most of them. Let people date people their own age on TV. Women don't have to be young. It's not that each individual age gap, that length is problematic. It is the fact that they are all that gap is problematic. Yes, it's the fact that it's very violent. Young women and older men are always portrayed together. And that perpetuates a kind of narrative that's entitled older men

used to their advantage. Yes, and also perpetuates the narrative that older women lose social currency as they age. Yes. Which frankly, bollocks to that. God no, I'm fantastic now. Getting more fantastic by the day, darling. Yes. So thank you for everyone who's gotten in touch with us. And don't forget that you can email us and tweet us and Instagram us. We'll tell you how at the end, if you want to pop up on the podcast. And we have a YouTube channel now, so you can watch that entire hour long grump about the watch if you want to hear our opinions on that. I have a lovely wine glass and look like a supervillain in the video. She does definite benevolent tyrant vibes. Well, I was barely

benevolent at some point. There was very little benevolence during that recording. Cool. So on to what we're doing today. Yes, I would. Yes, I would. I don't need to finish that sentence. Would you summarize the last part of the book? Yes, I will. What happened previously on Good Omens? Previously on Good Omens? Oh God, I haven't prepared at all. Moving pictures. Not sure where Good Omens came from. Previously on Moving Pictures. Victor and Ginger shoot to Stardom and with it significantly stepped up salaries. But their work on Dibbler's delightful feature length films is stunted by Ginger's propensity to scrabble at sandy slabs past sundown. Meanwhile, Gaspo makes a friend ish, the wizards keep an eye on the plebs and two trolls struggle

to speak the language of love against the backdrop of a world gone mad with 1000 elephants ish. We left for intermission just as filming finished on Dibbler's masterwork blown away. So has everyone got their popped corn for part three? They're banged grains. Yes. Oh, I could really eat some popcorn right now, actually. Yeah, we should have thought about this. We could have had, well, no, actually, we'd have just crunched into the microphone for an hour and a half, but we'd have been happy. Yes, we might have triggered any listeners with me, Saphonia. The scorn episode was bad enough. Yeah, I expect we do that on the regular anyway, considering often we forget to mute while we're drinking our coffees. But

yeah, it's part of the experience. Yes, the experience. It's a feature, not a bug. All right. Summarize for us, Joanna. Part three. So in part three of Moving Pictures, as Velvet Knight drapes the parrot cage of holy wood, Detritus does a quick frighten just to make sure. Dibbler watches the editing process and considers subliminal messaging and Gaspo sleeps outside as Victor guards sleeping Ginger. The Resograph continues to plib as Gaspo and Ladi find Victor all tied up. The gang track a sleepwalking Ginger to a mysterious tunnel and find a cinematic cave. Ginger tries to wake a mysterious statue that closely resembles my uncle Oswald. Ginger wakes up as the tunnel collapses, trapping our ragtag bunch of misfits

inside the cave. The dogs escape and seek trollish assistance to help out our heroes. Across town, in a sad bar, death has had enough, while Silvervich, Detritus and Gaspo drown their sorrows. Over in the Roundtop Mountains, the Hordes of Elephants fail to notice the Yeti. Holywood banishes in fog as the gang head to Wankmorpork for the premiere of Blown Away. The senior wizards sneak out to the clips, cleverly hiding their identities with false, false beads. Tragically, they can't get in. The Bursar panics as plibs continue. Fans go wild as Victor, Ginger and the patrician arrive at the premiere. The arts chancellor and the Bursar finally realise what those pesky alchemists have been up to and

decide to go along to the pictures. The senior wizards sneak in at the back and discover the joy of special moving picture food. As the film starts, the audience is hypnotised and magic fills the air. Gaspo wakes Victor, who manages to stop the film but reality is just too fucked to notice. The things from the dungeon dimensions break through using Ginger and Victor's screen presence. The picture house burns as the dogs play fetch and make a noble sacrifice. A giant cinematic Ginger thing lurches towards the library with a heroic Victor hot on her heels, as the librarian observes from the roof. The thing clutches the librarian as it climbs the tower of art. Victor follows and fights the thing with aerial support from the arts chancellor and

the Bursar. As a lightning strike sends the thing to its untimely doom, Victor realises they need to head back to Holywood to set the reality back to rights. As the world becomes film, Victor and Ginger find detritus holding up the cave entrance. The residents of Holywood sit entranced in the cage until Ginger, Victor and detritus successfully awaken the guardian. Everyone runs as Holywood collapses and reality returns. Last of the Holywood magic floats through the air as animals slowly lose their sapience. Victor and Ginger mourn what was, the elephants arrive at Angkmoorpork, Silverfish returns to alchemy and most importantly of all, Gaspo lives. Otherwise, I would have thrown the book across the room.

Absolutely. We did have the advantage of knowing this already, but even so, I was a little bit concerned. Well, they were gonna like end it on a cliffhanger for him, you know, I couldn't quite remember. Yeah, I wouldn't have been okay if he hadn't clearly gone out. No, wouldn't be happy with that. No. Did you enjoy it? I did. Yeah, me too. I thought it was lovely. It was fun, very fast moving, very classic cinematic climax, I think. Classic cinematic climax is some excellent alliteration there. Yes. Now, is there something you would like to highlight for us, Joanna? Something slightly more connected than usual, perhaps? Yes, helicopter and loincloth watch. I am calling the aerial support provided by the Archchancellor and Versa on a brimstick as a

helicopter. And I think that's actually a fair one for once. It's clearly going for a similar cinematic effect to a helicopter. Yeah. In the original King Kong, was it like little planes doing it? I know it's helicopters in some of the later ones though, so it counts, it's fine. But yeah. There's definitely a hint of helicopter about this. Also, loincloths strongly implied. Just in general. Oh, okay, cool, cool, cool. General loincloths. No, really, they were. I think this is possibly the only part where you can't say that. Trolls probably wearing it. Okay, fine, cool. Sorry, is that elementalist? No, I'm going to say no. Thank you. So we have an honourable mention quote, I think comes first in the chronology,

and that's yours. Yeah, I didn't want to put this as my actual quote, but it made me giggle. This is when the trolls have rescued Victor and Ginger from the cave and have a misunderstanding of what's going on. And Rox says, ah, she's wearing a very pretty silk negaliggle, which is how I will always say the word negligee from no one. The negaliggle made you feel. Negaliggle may be giggle. Also, he asks if they found a nice place to indulge in a bit of what is the health of your parent. Her. Her. Which is also how I'm going to refer to sex from now on when I'm not saying go so. Thank you, Joe. All right, to turn it back to some nice, beautiful, prattity description. Mine's on page 251, as Victor stumbles out of the darkness and into the light,

and says, yes, it all seemed much less horrifying in the cold light of day. And that's just what it was. Cold light. The room was full of a kind of light you got when you woke up on a winter's morning and knew by the light that it had snowed. It was a light without shadows. He went to the window and looked out on a pale silver glow. Holy wood had vanished. The visions of the night fountain up in his mind again as the darkness returns when the light goes out. That is love. That was nearly my quote. It's creepy as fuck in that. Love it. Love that. He does. There's some good like bits of sort of horror writing. Absolutely. In this section of the book. I think he really enjoys the fog and like the weird way the fog drifts and stuff like, I don't

know if it's like smoke machines he's thinking of. And yeah, we haven't had a really good foggy morning since the weather's turned. I'm really looking forward to that. I love walking to work early morning in the fog. So mine is not a beautiful bit of description. I went with a silly one because this is possibly my favorite moment in the book. Victor drew himself up to his full height. There are some things he said that a man has to do by himself. Ginger gave him a look of irritated incomprehension. What? Do you want to go to the lavatory or something? Irritated incomprehension is very much our expression. So that's fantastic. I am permanently in a state of irritated incomprehension.

But also I am a sucker for the trope of a man trying to be noble and heroic and a woman going look you're being very silly. Do you need the loom? You should have gone before we left. You should have gone before things from the dungeon dimension broke through. Speaking of sensible women, our first character. Yeah, I didn't really need to highlight this as a character. So we've got some newish ones. Some we've met in previous books and some I just wanted to talk about again. And I am starting with Mrs Cosmopolite, who we mentioned earlier in the book as having some very sensible philosophies. But also she's a dirty old woman and I love a dirty old woman.

She gives Victor a big smile and a complicated elbow intensive gesture that he felt certain sweet little old ladies shouldn't know. Some very nanny-ogish vibes. She has got a nanny-ogish vibe. She's had four husbands. She's willing to take on another four if Ginger didn't want any of the men that proposed to her. And yeah, I love it. I love the idea of her having a harem of rich men. I mean, that's what I want. That's what I see me working towards every day. Yes, absolutely. Speaking of rich men, just segwaying all over the place today, ricocheting the patrician. Being a little bit urge that he's not being recognised is quite sweet.

I like that he's sort of, well, all right, fine. They're famous, but I run the city. It's not that I want to be recognised, you understand. It's just that it's a little vexing that I'm not. Yes. There's also a great line. Dibbler is sort of explaining how bits of the moving pictures are made. And he had not got where he was today by bothering with how things worked. It was how people worked that intrigued him. And that's a nice thing. He's found his bit of expertise and everyone else can sort of crack on and make what they're making. So we're calling the Yeti a character, are we? Oh, I mean, it is a character. They are characters. This is the first time we've come across Discworld Yeti.

First and last for a little while. Yeah, I don't remember them coming up again, but that's not so they don't. Oh, yes, good point. I haven't read that one for a very long time. Spoilers. It's not spoilers, Joanna. Weird, it sounds like a future Discworld book. Spoiler, sorry. I didn't come here for weird shit. Oh, no, well, you're going to be very disappointed. And I'm also very confused as to how bad your memory is. Sorry, anyway, Yeti's, yes. Yes, these are a high altitude species of troll and quite unaware that eating people is out of fashion. So I like they're going to lie down in the snow and they're going to panic the elephants and eat them. And they lie down in the snow and they're very right. The

elephants don't notice them on their elephant bobslides. Yeah, I'm not sure what the ultimate plan was there, but they... Well, they may not have realised quite how many elephants they were trying to sneak up on. Well, sure, but how many elephants need to trample you before it becomes a bad idea? Good point. Probably not the full one thousand. I don't think we're quite at a thousand yet at that point. No, probably not. Yeah. I like how it's always felt with a one thousand elephants. Yeah, with a kilo of elephants. The Guardian, otherwise known as Oscar, I'm guessing. Yeah. So the Guardian is supposed to look like an Oscar statue, which allows me to pull out one of my favourite little bits of trivia, which is the fact that... Also, the Oscars are the Academy

Awards. They're not technically... The Oscars is a nickname, and it's in this game for the Statue Wear. And I don't know how true this is. It might be a bit of an apocryphal story, but apparently it comes from someone who worked for the Academy looking at the statue and going, oh, it looks just like my Uncle Oscar. I wonder how apocryphal that is. It became so widespread. Someone said it at some point. I think many, many different people have claimed it, but I didn't realise how quickly it went from a nickname to this is what they're called. The first time someone referred to it as an Oscar in an acceptance speech was in the mid-1930s, and I believe it was Walt Disney. Oh, wow. So that was early doors, yeah. I thought the Oscars and the Academy Awards were different

things quite well. Yes, so did I. But then I've never... The only bit of award season I've ever really followed is what people are wearing because I like looking at pretty dresses. Talking of pretty dresses. Wizards. Sorry, robes. I'm trying to buy the most tenuous segues I can today. Yeah, so we've kind of mentioned the wizards, but this is the senior faculty of the university and mild spoiler that we'll get to hang out with them again. So the Chair of Indefinite Studies, the Dean, lecturer in recent rooms. The Dean is actually the Dean of Pentacles, and of course Wendell Punes, the oldest wizard in the world. Yeah, he's great. Love Wendell Punes. I forgot how much of a kind of role he had in this one. Yeah, but I really love their sort of talking

about the poster for Blown Away, Victor and Ginger, and they're talking about, there's a girl who's got it, and none of them can really actually put things into words. So he sort of says, you know, the old way, hey, hey. And they're all sort of slightly wistful. Apart from the Dean. Yes. Says, we didn't know the meaning of the word sex when we were young. That's true. That's very true, said Punes. Then we have a room to find out. Do you remember? I like how right from the start the Dean is kind of this bullied figure. The Dean is, but like for a good reason. Yeah, he's such a nerd. He gets the line, towards beauty killed the beast at the end when the thing has died, which is the last line

from King Kong. But it's just, I could have easily read that and not known it was from a film because that is also just the sort of thing the Dean would say. Yes. I like how he was like, well, I wouldn't know. I was back in my room studying the lecture of runes or someone's like, yes, you were, weren't you? I remember. Bless the Dean. I like the different faculty titles. And that's something I'll probably go into in a future book, just because I think they're wonderful bits of nonsense. Chair of indefinite studies is one of my favorites. Yeah. There are some great faculty titles as we get into those books. Also, I didn't make this name this as its own character, but I possibly should have done it, which is poons as wheelchair. I've got in my note,

Wendell poons chair dash character. So yeah, I thought about it, wide and long, steered by means of a little front wheel, a long cast iron handle. Baroque iron work adorns its frame, which is apparently assembled out of iron drain pipes. There were various dread leavers, which only poons knew the purpose of. Huge oil skin hood that could probably protect its resident from meteor strikes and falling buildings. This is like steampunk beauty, isn't it? By way of light relief, the front handles adorned with selection of trumpets, hooters and whistles, with which poons wasn't want to announce this progress around the passages and quadrangles of the university. I want to try and draw this. I want to basically be Wendell poons when I grow up in that I just

want to be a mad old person in a ridiculous tricked out wheelchair with loads of like trumpets and horns on it. Well, he's 130. So you've got plenty of time to get building. Excellent. Good. I'll add that to the to do list right behind trimming my sage plant. Yeah. It's the most important of the bunch. Well, the art chancellor is the most important. Yes. And then he's got Bersar, who hangs out with him for almost the entire last part of the book. Yes. There's a little thing here that I want to remember when we get into future wizard storylines in future books. When the Bersar says, I think I'm going mad. Now now, said the art chancellor, you don't want to go around talking like that. That's crazy talk,

which really sums up their entire dynamic. I also like the bit where the Bersar finally snaps near the end. Rid Cully says something like, can't stand vegetables, thins the blood. And Bersar says, it was a pause. And the farmers heard the other boys say, well, I'm very sorry about that. You bloodthirsty overbearing tub of lard. There was another pause. Then can I sack you Bersar? No, art chancellor, I've got tenure. In that case, help me out. Let's go and find a drink. It's a wonderful practical way of looking at it. It's lovely. I love their relationship. Yeah. As we have said many times before, we do love Rid Cully. Rid Cully is the most

ridiculously practical wizard. I like the fact that he's learned how to use a magic mirror just so he can go hunting. Yes, I do enjoy that greatly. So death is here. Yeah, which for those keeping track, we, well, death's already turned up in this book. Once this continues our theme, I like that he sort of, this happens in quite a few books where death is pops in at the beginning and then gets another moment near the end. He sort of brackets the books. He's like a memento mori of each book. Yes. So death is in the sort of sad bar because apparently he quite likes the atmosphere. Yeah, it's amazing how well you can visualise the bar as well, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. We have all been in this sad bar with an oddly cheery barman. I have

occasionally been the oddly cheery bar mate in a sad bar. So death is very movie at the end, doesn't he? He rides in a purple haze and does like a one liner, which isn't very him, really. No, but he's picked up a little bit of Hollywood. Yeah, he gets a little bit ahead. To be fair, death does pick things up very easily. He does. He's quite porous. He's a bit spongy. I can talk about spongy, spongy death next month. In the meantime, let's revisit Victor and Ginger. Yes. Yes, Grim. I've put in my notes he ate and it's getting any. Just when he's keeping an eye on Ginger, it's good to try and avoid her sleepwalking. And it's sort of sulking in a, it's not that I want to, it's just that if this were like the

clicks, then we would be passionate in a world gone mad. And instead I'm sitting in a very uncomfortable chair while she sleeps. Yes. It's just that it definitely wouldn't be this that were happening, that's all. If nothing else, I'd possibly be slightly more comfortable. Yeah, they are getting on a little better. Although Trace, not Tracy, sorry, look, this is how easy they are to get mixed up. Yeah. Although Ginger spends a lot of it being confused and upset, which is a bit annoying considering how good a character she is sometimes. Yeah. I mean, the Victor and Ginger at all, they sort of fizzle at the end. And you don't know if they've gone this, you know, I'm a spoiler, but we don't see them again. We don't know if they've gone their separate ways or if

they've had a bit of a romantic sunset kiss somewhere. I think that's almost like a good thing though, because the point is once the magic's gone from the world, like it would fizzle, wouldn't it? It's like, like say what I put in the books, there's kind of a parallel to Tepik and Tracy and Morton Isabel. Morton Isabel end up together once Mort gets over the princess he thinks he's in love with. Yeah. And realize that quite practically, they are the best thing for each other. And oh, well, yes. Okay, apparently we're in love with each other, marvelous. Crack on. And Tepik and Tracy sort of have this bit of chemistry. Oh, you're my sister, never mind. Oh, okay then. Let's not. And for Victor and Ginger, there's this similar, they start the

same way as Tepik and Tracy and Morton Isabel, where they're sort of the sniping at each other. Yeah. And, but yes, they sort of fizzle off into nothing. And that's quite, it's quite sweet in its own way. I like to think they just stayed friends. They probably had a kiss to see what it was like. It's not really working, is it? Yeah, they just kept in touch over the years as they went along their different careers. What do you think Victor ended up doing? I don't know. I mean, he definitely didn't go back into wizardry. No. Maybe he became like a playwright or something. I could see him working at the disc. Yeah. And, and then Ginger. I like to think Ginger opened a bar.

Yeah, I could see her as you know, kind of sassy barmaid. This is my, Yeah, maybe one that puts on live performances and things. Yeah, Ruby comes and performs every now and then. She stayed in touch with some of the Holywood people. Ginger does stand up. Yes. Ginger does stand up about how much she hates milking goats. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, that's good. We wrote their endings. Sorted. If you have alternative endings listeners, let us know. Ruby in detritus. Finally. Yes. This is the big sweeping snog at the end, sort of.

Yes. This is the real romance book. Yes. This is the true romance of the book. It makes me very happy when we get to the end. And some of the last of the Holywood magic is those two in sham hagas, but they end up dancing. Play it again, sham. Which, okay. So I did look this up because I knew that was from Casablanca. I knew famously it's a misquotation. Oh, is it?

Yes. And I was trying to find what the actual line was. And a lot of things said it's play it, Sam. It's kind of hard to find because play it again, Sam is also the title of a Woody Allen play. This quote is from someone who wrote in to complain about a guardian crossword clue. Good. Carry on. Play it again, Sam. So widely misquoted. No, play it, Sam. So widely misquoted is play it again, Sam. Wasn't even spoken by Humphrey Bogart, but by Ingrid Bergman.

However, is so often with the case with things that everything knows, the sentence above is wrong in almost every particular. What Bergman actually said was play it once, Sam, for old times sake. And then when Sam pretended not to know what she was talking about, she goes on to say play it, Sam, play as time goes by. See, I think Pratchett would say something like, the story's become more true than the truth. Oh, absolutely. But as someone was persnickety enough about it to

write in and complain about a guardian crossword clue. I fucking love me some complaint letters, I'll tell you that. So I'm happy to have heard that. So yes, I really got to get some green ink. What for writing complaint letters? Yes. My old boss, John, let me know that back in the day, when people hand wrote letters, the weirdos always wrote in green ink. And so if you got a letter in green ink,

you knew it would be a rambling complaint letter. Though something similar, Jay Rainer's mentioned something similar about the letters, his mother, because his mother Claire Rainer was obviously quite a famous agony aunt, among other things. And she would quite often get odd letters in green ink. Yeah. Has anyone sent us an agony aunt question yet, by the way? No. Listeners, please. Completely understandable.

Please send us your agony aunt problems so we can desperately mind your lives for content. On the nose, mate. Speaking of on the nose, because he's a dog. Oh, wait, no. There was one other... Oh, fuck, sorry. Yeah. Just the other movie reference bit in Ruby in Detroit is Dancing, which is, they do, Let's Face the Music and Dance,

which is a lovely friend Astaire and Ginger Rogers piece from a movie called Follow the Fleet. I watched it, this gave me an excuse, because that would end up being the last note I made as I was planning this episode. So I could finish episode planning by watching that again. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's a little bit surreal, because it's a 1930s movie dance number.

What's it called, sorry? The movie is called Follow the Fleet. Follow the Fleet. The song is called Let's Face the Music and Dance. Cool. Any friend Astaire and Ginger Rogers movies, like normal length? They are 1930s musical lengths, so no, because they've got intervals and shit.

Okay, right, cool. I'll just watch the YouTube clip of that bit then. So, Gaspode, the last character we've got on here. I'm just mentioning him again, because he makes me sad through this. Like, he's got Laddie as a friend, and I like the fact that they're friends. But it's like, I feel like Victor should be standing up for Gaspode at points where, like, Silverfish is saying stuff like, oh, clever dog, and then it turns out he's talking about Laddie

and Gaspode kind of deflates. And it's like, Victor, you know Gaspode can understand you. Why don't you just say something like, oh no, Gaspode's very clever as well. Victor's a bit self-absorbed twat when it comes to Gaspode. Considering, like, what a helpful little dog Gaspode's being, and he doesn't have to be. He's just being nice. I think, because Gaspode kind of gets a lot of his sentience

when the Holy Word magic starts. So, I think Victor's kind of like the equivalent of a first boyfriend for Gaspode. Like, this is the first human he sort of attached himself to since he got sentient. So, he's, like, stuck in this really unequal relationship, and Victor's a real dick. And after this, he's going to, like, find nicer humans to hang around. I'm a bit emotional at the moment, but yeah, it made me cry a little bit at the end where he had to drag himself out of the building. Yes.

So, Laddie got rescued. Yeah, justice for Gaspode. I'm very sensitive about dogs now since I got a dog. Like, I can't really watch or read anything where a dog gets hurt or is sad. Yeah, that's fair. So, yeah, justice for Gaspode, we will build a statue to him. Yes, we will. Possibly out.

Even if he wants to wee on it. That's his statue. Yeah, he can wee on it. I mean, we will be building it out. It's my statue, and I'll wee on it if I want to. We will be making this out of, like, toothpicks and paper mache. Yeah, yeah, well, neither of us are sculptors, let's be honest. Fair.

Right, locations. Location, location, location. That is the one. So, the cinema temple, the underground in the cave, is kind of the big one. So creepy, full of skeletons. And I love how this is written. The description of the screen is this sort of hanging wall of Mercury with nothing it's attached to. And just the creeping horror of it.

As, like, if you can imagine, sort of, Victor walking into this cave and seeing the screen and then slowly realizing, like, oh, these seats are all full of skeletons. Yeah, and you need to take the time to, like, imagine the smell as well. Yeah, the sort of mould and damp. And, yeah, and the weird echoey acoustics you get in an empty cinema. And, yeah, it's a proper good horror scene. It is excellent. Especially because, although we quite quickly recognize it for what it is,

Victor's obviously never seen a, what's it called, a movie pit, did they call it, a film? Yeah, yeah. But a cinema. And it's, perhaps it's trick again of describing something that's very familiar to us through kind of discworld eyes. Yes. And so, like, piecing it together from an abstract thing, it's almost like he starts painting a picture from random little details.

And it takes a little while before you realize what it is. I always like it when he does that. Yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of what this book does. And this is a thing he does a few times where he brings a round world concept to the discworld and you get to see it slowly flourish through discworld eyes. Yeah. And it's really lovely. Yeah, that's a good location.

It's a good location. It's a really good scene. Tiny shout out. We don't actually go here, but when the Arch Chancellor and the Bursa are looking at the map and it says here be dragons, the Bursa says, oh, that's just Lady Rampkin Sunshine Sanctuary for Sick Dragons. So Sibyl's here. She's in our hearts.

Having a nice time caring for dragons. Yes, I'm glad she's doing that. Quarting Sam. Quarting. That's what she'd call it. She would definitely call it courting. Sam will be going along with it, feeling a bit confused. Another cinema, slightly less mouldy.

The Odeum in Ink Moorpork. There's a lovely line, an inviolable rule about buildings for the showing of moving pictures applicable throughout the multiverse is that the ghastliness of the architecture around the back is inversely proportional to the gloriousness of the architecture at the front. Can you confirm? Absolutely. The back of our cinema looks disgusting, especially because that's where we have like a bunch of crappy stock rooms and the little smoking shelter.

Excellent. Good to know. It's all quite terrible. So yes, I just like that for the accuracy. However, also with where our back entrance is, there's no way to sneak into the screens. Oh, that's good to know. Yes, just in case anyone was wondering. I can't, do you know what, even when I was like a little rebellious teenager or whatever,

I didn't do that because I just get so nervous about being told off. Yeah, my teenage rebellions were very low risk. I mean, not for like my physical health, but for getting caught. Yeah, you've got National Anthem down as a location. So, well, okay, I guess. Ink Moorpork is the location, but I believe this is the first time we get reference to the Ink Moorporkian civic anthem. We can rule you.

I'll try that again. We can rule you wholesale. Is it? Is it the first time we've heard that? We didn't get it in one of the first two. We might have done. This is the first time I remember it. I forget stuff a lot.

Yeah, me too. It's been like a year now, obviously. So yeah, next month, it'll be a year since the next month is the podcast first birthday. Yeah, I might make a cake. I'll just like eat it in front of me on the count. Nice. Yeah. Or like bring you cake.

Okay, that could work. Cool. So do you want to take a five minutes? Yes, let's do that. Let's have an intermission. Go and buy an ice cream off the lady with the tray that's weirdly hanging out in the corner there. Yeah, that's kind of awkward. We let her in.

I feel like I should offer a cup of tea as soon as I... Yeah, so little bits we liked. And we're going to start with the facts that trolls are working on their PR. Oh, yeah. The Silicon Anti-Defamation League will come down on you like a tonne of rectangular building things if you eat people. Yeah, it's... Do you remember if that gets brought up again, the Silicon Anti-Defamation League?

It definitely gets a few more mentions. Yeah, it sounds familiar enough that it can't just be this one. But so funny. Well, I kind of just like the idea of how these sapient species are actually looking at integrating into society and it moves the books on from being a straight fantasy parody to thinking more about how this world works. Yeah, absolutely. I think we get something similar with other species later on, don't we?

And like... Yeah, we'll get this with a few different species. Yeah. I wonder who runs the PR campaign. I'm... Well, actually, Chrysophase has been mentioned, or at least the Chrysophase family. Yes, as the kind of mafia already, wasn't it?

No, I don't think they're quite mafia like yet, but in colour of magic, like, there is definitely a troll named Chrysophase. They're still living... Well, in Weird Sisters, it's them, they borrow money off to build the... Oh, yes, they do. You're right. So, yeah, I'm assuming Chrysophase has started the Silicon Anti-Defamation League. Yeah.

That's one of its more legitimate business outlets. legitimate. Anyway, yeah, that was all I had to say. I just enjoyed that they're working on their PR as they joined the civilized sapient species. Absolutely. Cartography. When the Arch-Chancellor and Berser looked at the map,

and it says, here be dragons, and Terrin Cugnita, and Berser says, well, that's probably more interesting than just putting in a load of cabbage farms. Yeah. And there's been a few jokes in the books before that there are towns that sort of exist, because it's embarrassing for there to be that much blank space on the map.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I did start kind of looking into the history of cartography and the drawings of maps that were as much about putting things like here be dragons and artistic licenses, they were about actual maps. And, yeah, so cartography is a cool rabbit hole to go down. Yeah. I couldn't actually find much on what I was looking for,

because it's such a specific thing to try and search. In reading on map making in general, I came across Polynesian stick charts, which are the coolest kind of map I've ever seen, and still used in some Pacific Islander cultures to this day. And these are 3D maps that show currents and water movements using sticks tied together with beads and shells worked in to show where the islands are.

I'll link to some stuff about it in the show notes, but they are very cool. That's very cool. I like that. Yeah. I really liked the term cartographic furniture he used to kind of describe all of the, like the random pics of animals and waves everywhere.

Twiddly bits of cartographic furniture. Yeah, considering I'm shit at navigation and a map for a practical purpose is useless to me, the more ornate and ridiculous the better. Yeah, so I love the maps in Lord of the Rings. Yeah, yeah. They are beautiful. Yeah, definitely one of these people,

and you are as well who like spends a very long time looking at the maps in fantasy books. Yeah, I love when fantasy books have maps. The Discworld Atlas with the huge map is amazing, and I still want to get it framed and put it up somewhere. Such a big frame. It is huge, but it is very cool. I've stopped doing the thing where I put like post-its on the map

to work out where we are in each book, because I don't have anywhere to hang the map at the moment. But if I manage to hang it, then that will become a thing. Good. So cinemas have their own little range of snacks, and I feel like different things taste different in a cinema. So when the wizards go in to watch a film for the first time, they come back to the seats with armfuls of snacks,

as is tradition. Of course. They have popcorn and chocolate-covered raisins, because they're heathens. Oh yeah, chocolate-covered raisins are the worst. What are your favourite cinema snacks? For me, I've got salted popcorn, Skittles and Fanta. I've narrowed it down to.

Okay, so the big fizzy drink is a necessity, but I'm biased on this because the cinema I tend to go to is the one I work at, where you can do things like taking in a glass of wine. Yeah, can we pretend we're not doing fine dining and go for movie snacks? Cheeseboarding glass of wine is not a legitimate answer for this question. We don't do cheeseboards,

but we do have a rather good baked goods selection. I did learn the hard way. Can you say so yourself? I went to watch the National Theatre Live production of Hamlet with Benedict Cumberbatch in cinema, and we were just at work, and we had just started selling jerky as a cinema snack, and I love jerky, so I got a bag.

That is not a good cinema snack. I was so conscious of how loud I was eating it. Oh, is it like a smacking kind of thing? Yeah, yeah. So don't eat jerky in the cinema. I won't. I was so self-conscious. Love popcorn, salted popcorn, or mixed, not just sweet,

but I do like a bit of sweetened with my salted. So Dad likes mixed popcorn as well, and I will compromise on that. Yeah, movie watching at home. I will make my own popcorn, and I'd like maple syrup and sriracha, and loads of butter and stuff, and it's beautiful. Oh, that sounds good.

Yeah. But yeah, big cold fizzy drink. See, I am a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi person. Yeah, I like a Diet Coke too. Like the cinema is the only time I'll have Fanta really, but even then sometimes I'll get Diet Coke. I just don't like how fuzzy my teeth feel after a sugar drink. Yeah.

Also, a bit of a soft spot for terrible cinema nachos, as in just a plastic tray of warm tortilla chips with a little foil-covered pot of horrible orange cheese. Oh, I see that for me, because I can't wash my hands straight away. I have a thing about having sticky hands. I have a... Yeah, that's why I always carry wet wipes.

Good idea, yeah. Yeah. And I used to get very excited about getting a tiny little pot of ice cream at the cinema, even though you inevitably finish it before the film actually starts, because it was going to melt with the little plastic spoon. Yeah, or even better,

the little cut wooden stick that you got to eat it with. It wasn't even shaped as a spoon half the time. Part of this attachment comes from the fact that, to this day, one of the only places now that you can get my favourite favourite of Ben and Jerry's in the UK is at cinemas. Like, they don't seem to sell it in supermarkets anymore. Which one's that?

Cherry Garcia, so it's the best one. Yeah, that is the best one. I wondered, I hadn't seen it in a while. I was just... You can get the frozen yogurt, but you can't get the ice cream version. And the frozen yogurt version is nonsense,

so don't hold for that. I don't mind it, but if there's an ice cream flavour I like, I'll get that instead. Exactly. So yeah, then Small Joy is eating a tiny tub of Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia at the cinema.

Do you have a favourite ice cream flavour that's not Ben and Jerry's? I really like just plain chocolate ice cream. Oh yeah? Yeah. See, I'm banana for me. Yeah, I know. I don't like banana anything to be fair,

I don't like bananas and iron. I'm wearing my librarian socks today, I can't really bend my foot to show you. I already did yogurt today. We could probably sell that. Okay, actually I'm wearing one librarian sock and one death sock, that seemed appropriate for this section of the book.

Very good. That's what you did, that is it? Yes, yes, absolutely. Not just because they were the first socks I pulled out of the drawer. Whip, whip, whip, whip, Francine. Ah yes, whip, whip, as you quite rightly say, whip.

I just rather liked the sound effect that Terry Pratchett put down for a flaming hot reel of film. He goes, a red hot film can sized over the heads of the recumbent wizard, making a menacing whip, whip, whip noise and exploded against a distant wall.

Very much just a little thing I liked. I really like sound effects, what is it? It's not quite an onomatopoeia, is it? I would say that's sort of onomatopoeic, as in it literally just describes the word, he doesn't use a real word to describe the sound, he just writes the sound down. Yeah, so yeah, whip, whip, whip.

Just like clip. Yes, he's very good onomatopoeias in this. There are, there are. I enjoy just the word plib. Your one's next, my love. Yes, getting to this point just in the nick of time. This is when Victor is running up the tower to fight the thing and he's sort of realised,

you know, he's going to arrive in the nick of time and then he's thinking, oh maybe I could stop and have a rest if I'm definitely going to arrive in the nick of time and then realise he can't because that's not how it works, you know, if you're going to play along with it. Yeah, you've very much got to play along with it. And it sort of ties in with the million to one chances.

Yes, yeah. Happening nine times out of 10, it's the same sort of theme. Absolutely, yeah. He does it at the end, so he's like, we have to be the last ones out, that's how this is. This is how it's got to go. And I like when narrative causality exists in these books

and he's playing with it and things do go exactly as they have to. Yeah. I think it's things like that, that a white gas boat is still alive at the end. Yes, yeah. I read somewhere that Pratchett wasn't intending to do that, like he was intending to kill him off.

And I can't remember what changed his mind. I'll put that into follow-up notes. Yes, because like, how the fuck could you, what the fuck, Terry Pratchett? Well, I think the point, that would be like another bullet point of now the holy word magic is dead. Yes.

This is the actual ending you got. Yeah. Like in the same way that picture and ginger don't waltz off into the sunset, madly in love. But Ruby and Detritus do and that's what matters. Yes, absolutely. That's just a lucky coincidence. They happen to be the kind,

well, it's holy word magic that was kind of stopping them, wasn't it, almost? They get a little boost at the end, but finally. I love also that, I forgot to mention when we were talking about them earlier and this is tangenting off again, but the fact that they get together by her just hitting him over the head.

Yeah, she's like, oh, do you want, do you know what? I'm just going to take control of her places. Yeah. I'm going to do it the Trollish way, but my way of the Trollish way, which is I will hit some man over the head. Yes.

You have to feel a little bit bad for Detritus, who tried that right at the beginning. Yes. But I'm sure he's happy enough. Yes. Elephants. Elephants, a relevant elephant. Well, fairly relevant because it's been running

throughout the entire book. Oh, trampling, I suppose. Yeah, I just like the payoff from a running joke throughout the whole book. And it's one of those ones, I can't remember the name of the trope, but where it's better that you never see the outcome. Yeah.

Of it, like you never get to see Dibbler's reaction and that's funnier than any reaction you could see in the book. Absolutely. Like it's much better to leave that to the imagination. Also another little cameo from Colin and Nobby. Yes. Always nice to see them. Nobby going, oh, let me tell him.

Go on, please. But I like that, you know, they got a thousand elephants to the gates of Angkor Pork. And I do wonder a bit what happened to these elephants afterwards. Yeah. I hope they didn't end up in sausages in a bun. No, they absolutely did not.

I refuse to believe that. As is tradition, I have an elephant fact. Elephants are hypsodonts, which means they have continually growing teeth. And as their tusks are teeth, they're just modified teeth, like they have the tissue inside and everything. Mm.

They keep growing and they get kind of naturally worn down a bit in the wild, but in captivity, they often have to have tusk trims. Oh, yeah. That's lovely. Right. Shall we go on to the bigger talking points? Yeah, we've got some fairly abstract ones today,

which I like actually. I do like an abstract concept on a Friday. Yeah. I'll start with like the smallest one, which is the one I got, which is the kind of hypnosis of cinema. And I'm not a big film fan, as we all know now, because I keep going on about it.

But I'm very susceptible to, when I'm actually dragged into a cinema, I will sit there, you know, mouth open in a very unattractive way, and I will fall for each one of the trailers going, oh, that looks good unless like it's really atrocious. Yeah. I'll never get around to watching those movies,

but in the moment, I absolutely believe I will. And then I'll usually really enjoy the film. No matter what it is, if I get dragged to see it in the cinema, I will like it. It's just I don't really like to commit myself to that. And there is something special about just having that massive fucking display up there.

I am totally the opposite. I fall asleep in the cinema so much. That's interesting, because you're more of the movie lover between us. I love movies. I love watching movies. And I have forced myself into the habit when I'm at home now of not looking at my phone

when I'm watching TV or watching a movie, because that is killed my concentration. And part of the reason I don't like going to the cinema is this having to just concentrate on one thing, because, you know, I like my multiple inputs. Do you think you were better at, or do you remember enjoying cinema more when you were younger then,

before we kind of killed ourselves with smartphones? I loved going to the cinema when I was a kid. I loved going to see, you know, Disney stuff and animated stuff, and the Harry Potter films. Obviously, you know, R.I.P. to that part of our lives. I mean, again, not actually that great if you put any deep, deep thoughts into it. But you didn't have to.

That was a point. Yes. I still enjoy going to the cinema. Obviously, I'm not doing it at the moment because of the pandemic, but it's an option. And there are certain films that are great on the big screen. Yeah. I'm really lucky in that, with where I work,

we sometimes have like little private staff screenings as well. I've seen some great films. I wouldn't have normally watched that I've got to be almost completely alone and scream for, like, my feet up and a beer in my hand. See, that sounds amazing, yeah. Yeah, that's really fun. I love the private staff screenings,

especially because you can, like, stretch out across four sofas. Yeah, because your cinema has sofas. Yes, my cinema has sofas. It's great. And also, I've seen a lot of theatre stuff in cinema. We do a lot of national theatre live, and that's allowed me to see stuff I wouldn't get to see otherwise. And how does that compare to watching it in the theatre, then?

It's not the same as watching it in a theatre, but it is very good. That's the best thing, kind of. Yeah, they're often filmed over, like, say, a couple of nights and cut together, so you do get, like, interesting close-ups and cuts and shots. It's not just a camera on the stage for the entire thing. And you can...

But it doesn't have that same palpable energy as being in the room and watching it. Yeah. It's not like being in the room where it happens. Sorry, that'll be really funny once you've seen Hamilton. Okay, cool. Sorry. I saw you were trying to do something there, and I was just hoping it would dawn on me, and it didn't.

Okay. That's all right, I haven't seen that on my fault. You will get to see Hamilton, and then I can make lots of Hamilton references. Okay, okay, cool. So it's a different thing, but it's enjoyable, and that holds my attention a lot more, but it's also just, if I sit down in a comfy chair and the room's dark, and then I will quite often doze off,

I'm so bad for it. I've forced myself to stay awake through Avengers Endgame because that was such a big, epic movie that I really wanted to see in the cinema. And the Star Wars films, the first one, those, The Force Awakens, I fell asleep about halfway through. Yeah. I fell asleep during one of the James Bond films that my boyfriend at the time took me to see.

Because, you know, it was Casino Royale. Oh yeah, no, that's fair. Everyone could fall asleep with that. Well, this is the other thing. I don't go to the cinema often because I'm not that fussed about seeing a lot of films on the big screen. Yeah, yeah.

Like, I'll quite happily, like, if it's... I love Chick-fil-X, but I'll quite happily watch them on my TV at home. It tends to be big stuff like Star Wars. I will go to the cinema for and have the experience of. Mad Max, Fury Road, was incredible in the cinema. Well, it's the stuff where they all get when the special effects really matter.

Yeah. Actually, that was a... So, one of the last times I went to the cinema, pre-lockdown and everything, was for... God, a serial killer's guide to life, which is an indie film that charity Wakefield is involved in, who I'm a big fan of. She's a very good producer in things. She's also a very good actor.

She was in this great play, Amelia. She played Shakespeare. Are you... Was that when you got to meet her? Yes. So, they... We screened the film and she was there with one of the actors and the director

and they did, like, a Q&A afterwards. And I got to say hello. So, that was fantastic. And that was... That was a tiny indie film. That wasn't a big blockbuster action thing, but it was amazing seeing it in the cinema because they'd worked so hard on the soundscape.

There's very little music in the film. And a lot of it is... There's lots of very bleak moments and staring off a cliff top or being sort of out in the country in the middle of nowhere. And there was very subtle background sound. See, I almost feel like that might catch my attention better because it's like when someone does pauses well

when they speak, it kind of holds your attention, doesn't it? Yeah. So, that was great. That was worth seeing. And that made me think maybe I should make more of an effort to see, like, good little indie films in the cinema. And then... Yeah.

But there's a pandemic. And I don't feel comfortable sitting in a cinema even if everyone does keep their masks on. Yeah, for sure. So, fame and fandom. Yeah, this is a cool theme that kind of comes around in the last bit of the book as Victor and Ginger go to the premiere.

And they've been so disconnected from the world of moving pictures outside of making them. They've never seen the reaction for that. I don't think they realize that. But, you know, Ginger's aim is to become so famous. And yet she doesn't quite realize that she has become so famous. Yeah. Until they get to this.

And there's all these interesting ideas about how people become celebrities and almost like, you know, people being famous for being famous. There's fame and fandom are two different things. You know, fame is... Yeah. Well, they're both very nebulous and hard to describe. Fame is being recognized by a lot of people, isn't it?

Yeah. Fandom is on the other side of it. Fandom is, you know, kind of what we engage in with the discworld thing, which is the being particularly into something. Which... I think fandom as a concept is very internet-era, isn't it? Because...

Well, you say that. I was doing a bit of research into the history of celebrity and fandom and things. And one of the earliest examples of fandom that we think of as like internet fandom now is Sherlock Holmes. Okay. And fans literally gathered to mourn

when the character was killed off. And then wrote so many letters that he ended up being brought back. Yeah. I mean, I know like fan clubs and stuff existed and that, but like a disparate group like that then, that's quite cool, yeah. Yeah.

And that's, you know, that's the thing. There's lots of backgrounds about TV series being saved from cancellation because they have devoted fandoms. It happened with Farscape. When Firefly was cancelled early, the fandom pressure was enough to get a movie made. There was a fandom Kickstarter

that allowed Veronica Mars to end up getting a movie. Like this stuff happens a lot. And it started like one of the earliest examples is Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, which then I think he like regretted forever after he gave in to that to be fair. Yeah. Well, this is the darker side of fandom,

which is that there becomes an entitlement to a property above and beyond what the author is willing to give. And you do see this happen nicely. Sometimes you see it with like Patrick Rothfuss and the fact he hasn't released the third book in that trilogy. And the fans are kind of dickish to him about it.

Well, there's a whole Stephen King book about it, isn't there? Well, yeah, Carrie, not Carrie. Misery. Yeah. Oh, I misunderstood Carrie again. No, Misery, which is very difficult. Very good film as well. Yeah.

I mean, I think sometimes we forget that the word fan comes from fanatic, which is an extreme word. And it's kind of, it's gone through that weird meaning inflation or deflation thing where we've had to come up with words like stan or superfan to describe the proper mentals now. Yeah. Because fanatic alone isn't enough to.

Yeah. Which is weird. It is weird. It's very intense. Yeah. And I guess when like we're talking about authors, a lot, because that's what we care about. But when it gets to people who are seen as kind of movies,

seen on movie screens and valued a lot for their appearance and for their person instead of what they've created. I think it like it can take an even more sinister tone, can't it? That's when you get stalkers and when you get. Absolutely. This came up on a podcast I was listening to. I can't remember which one,

one of the TV recap podcast I was saying and they were talking about, you know, there's a difference between writing fan fiction about a show, we're writing about characters and there are people who write fan fiction about actual human beings like that they think should be together. Like one of the nasty examples. So everything to do with 50 shades of gray is obviously terrible and evil and it's an awful book.

But after the film came out, the fact like it has a very intense fandom and the fans were so into the idea of the two lead actors actually being together that they were writing fan fiction and bear in mind like he's married to someone else very happily. They were nasty about it. They started saying horrible things about his wife. Yeah, this is you start off with that story and you're like,

I kind of get it. Teenage is going to teenage. It's still writing practices, isn't it? When you're like, ah, there it is. Yeah, it is creepy. So yeah, so there is definitely a dark side to fandom, which we're not engaging. But then I think this is something we sort of brought up

when we were talking about the watch. Like part of the reason we're so upset about this shit adaptation is because we feel very entitled to the work of Terry Pratchett because it's so important to us. That's it. And that's why I'm trying to moderate. Well, I'm clearly not trying very hard to moderate my tone about it, but it's why I'm trying to avoid certain

conversations around it and who watches the other podcasts. One of the other wonderful ones who are wonderfully comforted, and I always like that, tweeted recently about how they retweeted a pretty bad take someone had, basically, which was if you think you can improve on this or that, why would you even like the thing enough to adapt it or something? And who watches the watch were like,

if you don't have anything to add, why are you adapting it? Yeah, like work changes with adaptation. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Look at good moments. It's a few specific things with the watch that, A, I just don't like some of the stuff, and I've tied that up with my own feelings about some of how I feel it's almost offensive, how they've changed some of the core of it.

But again, it's like, yeah, now I come down and I'm like, yeah, okay, again, not my circus. Not my circus, not my monkeys. And we will always have the books. We will always have the books. But yeah, so I was quite interested in some of the history of celebrity and fame and fandom. There is a book I've only just started reading.

I've mentioned the podcast, You're Dead to Me Before, a good history podcast by Greg Jenner. He's got a good book called Dead Famous, which is about the history of celebrity. Yeah, so I've only started it, but I like, he opens with a definition celebrity, a unique persona made widely known to the public via media coverage and whose life is publicly consumed

as dramatic entertainment and whose commercial brand is made profitable for those who exploit their popularity and perhaps also for themselves. Cool, well done. He's defined a very hard thing there. Yeah, I thought that was a really interesting thing. But going back, I mean, so like celebrities has a history that goes back years,

yeah, right back to, you know, ancient Greece and the way athletes were lauded as heroes. Yeah, and thinkers as well almost, weren't they slightly more niche? Yeah, well, this was what we talked about when we were talking about pyramids and the symposiums and stuff, you know, they'd put on performances where they had conversations

to get their thoughts out and write each other. Like Plato would write about, would write the character of Socrates and Socrates would come and watch this thing. Like they kind of wrote fan fiction about each other. We've got to get around to doing this to each other, like writing our arguments. If you don't think that I have all of my arguments

in my head before I have them, which is a good tactic for- And then I'm very incuriating and don't always follow your script because you never give it to me. But I thought it was interesting when film stuff started, actors originally weren't credited, like their names weren't on posters or in the credits,

because studios were worried, you know, if their names become big and well known, they'd be able to push for more money and that's eventually what happened. And studios had the power to create or not create stars or not by bothering to put their names on posters and above titles. Right. And then while they similar to this book,

once they started getting recognition, they realized they could push for it. Yeah. Okay. But so much of a star's image was controlled by the studio. This is the Curran Brothers movie, Hail Caesar. Like it's a Curran Brothers movie and it's a comedy, but it does look at this studio life in sort of Golden Age of Hollywood

and how they manipulated people and their public image and public persona, you know, down to this is who you can be publicly dating. Okay. And that's still kind of a thing in celebrity now. Yeah, I was trying to think, I'm not sure if it's like all the stories I've heard about that are apocryphal or whether I'm getting them off TV shows,

I've watched that are fictional. There is definitely some. Well, I mean, look at Marilyn Monroe, you know, she was a girl called Norma Jean, who was creating this image and reportedly hated it, you know, she cried at the script to some like it hot because her character was so stupid. Yeah, she was by all accounts really smart, wasn't she?

Yeah, but she's remembered as the sort of fluffy blonde. Yeah, there's this lovely photo of her not long before she died and she's 27, just of her on the beach in our aesthetic, which is oversized jumper over her hands. Yeah. And I love that photo so much because she's smiling. Yeah, she's smiling and she's laughing and she's not posing. Yeah, she's smiling with like her face is wrinkling in the places

you wrinkle when you smile, not when you're smiling for a camera kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, I like that, Joe, that's really natural. This is perfect content for the podcast. It's fine, I'll give you. But there's a good thought process of a scenario on this. Oh, yeah.

This is page 279. It was fascinating. You could become famous just for well being famous. It occurred to him that this was an extremely dangerous thing and he might probably have to have someone killed one day, I'd be with reluctance. Might have to have somebody killed over this mental note. If you look at what veterinary ends up doing with the city,

and I don't want to spoil anything major, but how he allows people to create public personas that work for the best of the city. I'm particularly thinking of the book Going Postal. Yes. Yes. He obviously keeps this in mind and eventually turns it his advantage. That's interesting, isn't it?

Because that's a politician doing it. Yeah. Yeah. There's got to be some examples of various overbearing, totalitarian, that's what I mean, not overbearing, governments doing that. Let's change all of the proper political language into parenting technique.

But this kind of goes into my other big thing to talk about from the section in the book, which is the idea of parasocial relationships, which is the time you taught me. Yeah. Well, it's the time I only learnt the other months. Time this year is so difficult. After basically one of my favourite things in the world

imploded after the host of one of the hosts of got kind of outed and as a twat. Being a horrific person, yeah. And it kind of made me have a long hard look at myself about how emotionally invested I was in that group of people chatting and how I'd kind of, especially during lockdown, started looking forward to it like I'd look forward to seeing my friends each week.

Yeah. So this is the idea of parasocial relationship, is you somewhat create a relationship in your head with someone who does not know you. Yeah. Because and podcasts are a particularly good example of it because of the nature of them. Yeah.

They're all casual and it does. It feels like you're listening to your mates chat, especially because you listen to hundreds of hours of them sometimes. Yeah. And you feel like you know them and obviously you don't and certainly they don't know you. But yeah.

I don't think it's necessarily a sad thing. And I'm not saying that our listeners can't think of us as dear friends because we do care about all of you dearly. Yeah. But, you know, we don't know you up. We don't know you personally about actually some of you we do. Well, that's it. It's not that it's an inherently terrible thing.

As I've said, as I said, like at the beginning of lockdown, like I gave out a list of ones you can kind of do that with on purpose. It's just, I think, important to bear in mind. Yeah. Especially when you realize like you've had an actual real life reaction to something that's happened in this very one sided part of your life.

Yeah. Like I had a similar experience, not the same, but there was a podcast I listened to with the two co-hosts were married and about halfway through making that podcast, they separated. They continued making the podcast together and stayed very good friends. But it was a very sad thing.

And obviously, you know, there's quite a big fan group around this podcast. So everyone sort of had this shared, oh, we feel bad for them together. But it was a very weird thing to feel so much sympathy or empathy or whatever for people who don't know me and to sort of worry about them and hope that they're okay. Yeah, that's it, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it gets, it overlaps with the entitled fandom thing quite a lot sometimes, especially when there's a lot of people talking like with the podcast I was on about, there's a discord group. And a lot of people in there were like talking about it. And I was talking about it as well.

It was kind of like a shared. Oh, this is really sad and weird thing. And then I kind of gradually became aware that the talking was very entitled. And oh, the remaining host should do this and should do that. And I was like, you know what? No, they're actually dealing with one of their real life friends being out like realizing he's like this.

And it's absolutely none of our business how they react to this. Yeah. Like entitlement in fandom is such a weird thing you see often. And it makes me cringe now. Yeah. But I've seen it in so many different spaces. Yeah, you'd be tempted to say like, oh, it's a teenage thing, but it's absolutely not.

Some of the worst people I've seen do it have been 25 or above for sure. It is absolutely possible for adults to do it. But this relates to particularly this part of the book. And this is when they're trying to figure out what to do about the giant ginger climbing the what's it, which I forgot to mention. The giant ginger climbing the what's it. Good. I forgot to mention some of my favorite movie references.

Oh, yeah. No, do those quickly. Well, first of all, you've got ginger describing her dream to Victor. If I can find the... Sorry. Page 223, which is a reference to all of the different like movie studios, opening credits, things. Yes, yes.

Is it Paramount, the one with the lamp? Yeah, she starts with the mountain, stars around it. And then one of them comes down. It's not a star, it's a woman holding a torch over her head. Then there's lots of lights and then there's a brawl like a lion. So it's Paramount is the mountain. Columbia is the woman holding a torch over her head, I think. And then the lights are 20th Century Fox and the flashing lights.

Oh, so the next step was okay, right, right. Yeah, and then the lion is MGM. But the thing I was referring to is, obviously, the giant ginger. Yeah. You've got, first of all, the librarian Tarzan swinging towards her and doing the... Yeah. Very George the Jungle, before everything. You've also got, I mean, the giant woman is kind of attacking the 50-foot woman,

but then you have this iconic idea of the giant woman climbing the tower, holding the tiny eight, which is King Kong. Backward. Backward's King Kong, and I just love the image. But the actual, I was talking about with Victor and this idea of kind of... The fans not quite getting the difference between reality and fiction. Sure. They expect him to go and save the day because they've seen it in the pictures.

Yeah. And because moving pictures is so new to Ang Moorpork, there is this kind of blur between reality and fiction. So as far as they know, he is this kind of marvellous hero. They think they're real and they're not going to do anything because they think he is a hero and he can go and do it. Yeah, I like the authoritative pipe-smoking guy going, clear the way for the lad, let him get on with his things.

And they're sort of the mother, you can sort that out now, I'll call them out of the way for you. Yeah. And there's the mother with the child and the child's going, well, where's his sword, I'm sure he's off to fetch it directly and gives him an encouragement. Go on, go on dear, it's fine. We know.

It's just you can imagine all these people so well, and I'm not entirely sure where from, but I know that entire scene from real life somewhere. Oh, it's beautiful. It's sort of when you've bullshitted your way into a position and then you actually have to do something with people watching, it's like, oh, oh, hang on. Yeah, absolutely. So I enjoyed that, I enjoyed thinking about that

and the idea of how the fame and fandom affects, especially when the technology that has brought this fame and fandom is so new, because it was like a thing when early movies existed, people panicked and scrambled and got out of their seats in a film scene that had a train coming towards the screen. Wow. Yeah, because it seems so real and they sort of forget that that screen is there. Yeah, I mean, that's just instinctual, isn't it?

Yeah, that's weird and cool. Yeah, so it's almost something people haven't had a learn to relationship, have a relationship with yet, so they've developed an unhealthy one. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, maybe that's the case with like podcasts and that now we're seeing a Yeah, and becoming more available on the internet. And yeah, I think internet ties in so much, it ties into it so much, because you can have this direct line of communication now.

Yeah, if you read through as I often do, Terry Fratch, it's all posts on the alt.bandom.net thing. He is pretty much always grumpy. Yeah, you can tell, because like everyone talks in such a, even then in the 90s and early 2000s, it's just people talking about him in such a brood and tidal way and he's coming in like. He minds. Always grumpy is a bit mean, but like quite often, Kurt, I would say, and rightfully so, not like overreacting.

There's a couple of things sort of from the Discworld history that this comes up with, one of them being the fact that he wrote Sorcery because there was so much pressure to bring back Rincewind. And you could tell he didn't want to when he did interviews around the book, he was more excited to talk about the next books he was writing, like that was a book written out of the sense of obligation. And then when he was ready to bring Rincewind back, the next one he's in is much, much better.

Yeah, because it worked and because he had a story that worked for Rincewind. There's also the quote from last week's episode where he was, you know, saying, yes, this studio is meant to be this one, the studio is meant, and I've gone horse on the internet explaining that I just made up floating bladder because it was funny. So we obviously got asked this stuff a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Which like the silly references and that fine. Yeah, because why not?

But there must be an odd mix of happiness that people care and frustration that people aren't just letting you do your thing. Yeah, I can't imagine how that would be. Like you definitely feel it from, as you said, like Patrick Rothfuss. I feel like his fandom has almost squashed the urge for him to finish that book now. Yeah, because he can't put anything on the internet with people just commenting underneath book three. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one might say, stop posting on the internet then.

I was like, well, no, we shouldn't have to. And he does a lot of good. Yeah, like he does a lot of raising money for charity and he does a lot of good. And he does a lot of artistic things that aren't this particular book. Yeah, just let people exist, guys. On the other hand, I then kind of see it from the other side in that when someone starts a trilogy and the second book with a cliffhanger and then kind of refuses to talk about when he might release the next one, that is frustrating.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But like that frustration, like it's kind of my problem. And it's it sucks. And it kind of feels like a like a very informal contract that was never fulfilled. But at the end of the day, like he's a real person. Yeah, he's a real person. There are lots of books. Like he's doing all kinds of stuff that's important and interesting.

Like if you need to see stuff by him, there's stuff. I think this is the whole thing the fandom comes down to is just remember that other human beings are other human beings. Yeah, yeah. And it is kind of easy to forget. Yeah, but a fun trick is just to imagine them brushing their teeth. And it's like, oh, yes, that is a human being. I heard that somewhere about like if someone's if you're too starstruck to talk to someone,

the trick is to it's less creepy than say, imagine everyone in their underwear. So imagine people brushing their teeth. Yeah. Oh, remember that if I ever get to meet Neil Gaiman again because last time I could not form a sentence. No, me neither. But never mind, we did have a nice evening. In our defense, there were quite a few thousand people queuing behind us.

Well, that's not really in our defense because we had quite a long time to think about a sentence while we were queuing. Yes, but I'm not sure how much of it was starstruck and how much of it was pretty short-quitness that I didn't want to take too long because there was a large queue behind me. Yeah. All right. So have you got an obscure reference, Finneal? Yeah, kind of.

I've got back to the Yetis briefly before they get trampled by 1000 elephants-ish. They were saying, oh, what do you get if you cross a mountain with an elephant? Which like in the context is like talking about he's crossing the mountains with elephants because he's going across them, you know. But it's just kind of an almost callback, although probably just a reference at the time to when there were just loads of jokes about what do you get when you cross an elephant with an X. And so I just picked out a couple of good ones I could find.

Excellent. What do you get if you cross an elephant with a fish? I don't know. Swimming trunks. What do you get if you cross an elephant with a rhinoceros? I don't know. Elif, I know. And finally, what do you get when you cross an elephant with a kangaroo?

I don't know. Bloody great holes all over Australia. Marvelous. Which seems quite a practic one to finish on. I don't think we could end this episode in a better place. So play us out, Sam, to properly mangle the quote. Great. Yes, that's definitely not the great.

Thank you for listening to the Tusha Miki Fret. We are going to take a little break now. We'll be back at the beginning of November to begin our talk about Reaper Man. Yes, yes. Definitely in my top three. I am really looking forward to this. I'm excited. Oh, I love it so much.

Yes, we'll be back in November to talk about Reaper Man. There's no bonus episode coming next week because you've had two this month already. You greedy bastards. We mean that in a loving way. Also, it's not like they asked for it. That was just us putting more work on our own plates. I'm so sorry we keep giving you content. In the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram at the Tusha Miki Fret on Twitter and Miki Fretpod

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Or just any kind of feedback, questions, things that we've got wrong. As long as you say it nicely. Yes, please correct us gently. As always, do not ever contact me to explain the rules of time travel or cricket. Very, very important. And until next time, dear listener, holy wood dreams.