The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 40: Witches Abroad Pt. 3 (Existential Crisis Fridays)

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3  of our recap of “Witches Abroad”. Good! Evil! Chaos! Free Will! Biscuits!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretReddit: r/TTSMYFEmail: [e-mail] to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Start With This (Episode 2 is Hooptedoodle)A Cinderella Story (2004) - IMDbBaba-Yaga and Vasilisa the FairMaman Brigitte - Mythology wikiMrs Gogol’s Gods - The Annotated Pratchett FileBaron Samedi - A Loa of the DeadBaron Samedi - WikiInterferometry | ESO [See also: The Science of Discworld, p113 in the hardback)Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Yay. Oh, biscuits. Okay, no, right. Stop thinking about food. I like we're wearing matching outfits today. Look, it's cardigan weather. I've had a weird one where I've been in like an odd grumble week. But then today, I got to wake up to the combined news of new Taylor Swift album and new trailer for the next Dragon Age game. Yeah, as someone who doesn't really love Dragon Age, that does look pretty fucking good. It does look very good. It looks like

they're actually going to do proper cities this time, which I'm hyped for. And yeah, I think we're just getting to the point really where games can run proper cities like in that kind of way. And it's getting quite exciting. Although Assassin's Creed did a damn good job of it a long time ago, but obviously not quite so complex. I am. Well, Assassin's Creed also had the benefit of modeling based off real cities. Yes. Yes, there is that accurately. Yeah. To the point,

I've read lots of like silly Tumblr posts about people who've been able to find their way around Rome because they've played enough Assassin's Creed. Oh, that's adorable. I love it. But yeah, no, the game looks awesome. I'm very excited for the new Taylor Swift album. Do we know when the game is coming out? No, there's no release. The album came out at midnight. So it's out now. Oh, sweet. Oh, cool. I'll listen to it after some. Yeah, I am. If you listen to any.

Not yet. I'm going to save it for my walk to work and while I'm at work. It was it's nicer for them because like she brought out the last album folklore earlier this year, just as I was going through a rough time and it sound tracked it perfectly. So I'm guessing this one is going to perfectly soundtrack whatever the horrible thing happens to me next. Yeah, it'll be exciting to find out via the medium of Taylor Swift 2021 will bring for us.

I feel like it's a bit early to start worshipping her as an Oracle. But it was very nice of her to bring out an album that was perfect for slowly and methodically wrapping champagne glasses in bubble wrap. Do you mean too early in the day or too early in the process of just too early in the day? Like I feel like declaring someone an Oracle is more of a sort of tea time thing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. You can't go around declaring

Oracle's in the morning. It's not what that's not what we're about, Francine. I was getting a bit stressed out about organizing like, of course my face ID is not recognized. I'm looking at my ceiling. Sorry. I was stressing a bit about getting organized for Christmas and my grocery planning and meal planning and everything else. And then realized what I needed to do was sit and write everything physically down.

Yeah, yeah, that made a huge difference. And now it's all planned. When I had multiple family members staying for Christmas before, and I cooked Christmas dinner for them. And that included two of us that are pescatarians, one gluten free and Jack will eat, you know, meat and everything. And I ended up with an A4 piece of paper that looked very much like the scribblings of a food obsessed man, man. Yeah, it was actually

just the timings and when things are coming in and brackets on brackets, and I only burned one thing. So it was pretty effective. I, I very luckily ended up with the whole week before Christmas. I have every evening off so I can do loads of proper and advance. And then I get three days off for Christmas. Oh, that's not very chef.

Well, I my head chef is great about making sure everyone takes either Christmas Eve or Boxing Day off. And in my case, I usually take Boxing Day, because I don't care about having the day before or if I want the day after off to recover. Sure. But because Christmas is on a Friday, the day after Boxing Day is a Sunday. And that's usually my day off. So he was just like, Yeah, I just have three days. Nice. That's why I've

ordered three tubs of Twiglets. The Christmas tub of Twiglets is sacred, Francine. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. It's the most disappointing food in the world. It smells good is the problem. I think I'm just still traumatized from when I was a kid and eight one expecting it to be like pretzel. Oh, yeah, no, I can see how that would mess you up. Yeah. It's like I was put off olives for quite a long time

because I was thinking it was just some kind of ugly grape. I don't know what I was thinking, eating a grape that looked like that. I probably deserve what I got. But Oh, grapes. So I keep thinking of things I've missed off this grocery order. Cool, cool. Burying in my grapes, I'll get you some grapes. Burying in my my dessert for Christmas revolves around making

a vast amount of chocolate ganache. I nearly forgot to order chocolate. Excellent. I'm making a blackberry and chocolate ganache tart. I'm going to buy something because although I am a fairly good cook, I am not a good baker. I love making sweet things. I because of obviously the dim pandemic. I've got my little social Christmas bubble, but it

means that only before it was for lunch. So I can't justify going quite as overboard on dessert as I did last year where I made a full black forest gato. That was really good though. It was a very good cake. I turned up to your house very full and left much fuller than should have been physical physical possible. This is the thing I'm finding hardest about Christmas this

year. So normally I do the like from about four o'clock in the afternoon, my door is open, anyone can turn up and there is they can have food and they can have cake and they can have cheese and drinks. And I end up with like a ridiculous house full of people considering I do not have space for a lot of people. Yeah. And I can't do that this year because of the pandemic. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a bit shitty. I just want to accidentally have to feed 30 people. Yeah, I just want to turn up at your house at seven o'clock again and be directed to the cheese table and some mulled apple juice. That was very nice. Yeah. Oh, I want to make mulled apple juice and eat bad juice. Cool.

I'm glad this episode is also functioning as a reminder for our shopping lists. Yeah, this is the I'm hoping we're helping some listeners out here. It's like for context again, we're recording ahead of fucking late by the time this comes out. Yeah, we're recording ahead of time. So for us, it's like today is two weeks until Christmas. Yeah, which is fine.

My decorations are going up this weekend and then I can start wrapping presents. I've put up one string of lights, which I quite like. And I'll think about other decorations. I'm not sure if I'm going to put up a tree. I'm not sure if I've got room. You have got quite a small house and an excitable dog. Yeah, I managed it last year, but I can't remember how.

Did I get rid of this table? I think you might have done. Yeah. All right, well, never mind. I'll work that out when we're not meant to be doing something else. Yeah, maybe not while we're recording a podcast. You put a very weird word in.

Hoop de doodle. De doodle. Hoop de doodle. Yes, I didn't just put that in because it's fun to say, although it is. Hoop de doodle. You know how we both love how Pratchett goes off on random descriptive tangents and like spends forever describing that the swirl of clouds, like coffee being stirred and, you know, he opens on the orchestra and the turtle and the velvet night

and the storms and everything that just flickers your head when you think about that. Yeah. And that's called Hoop de doodle, is it? Yes, I found that out because, you know, that Nightfell podcast I've been massively listening to that I think is melding my brain in interesting ways. The one of the writers of that does another podcast called

Start With This, which is a writing podcast that basically explains a literary concept or genre or something, gives you something to consume and then something to create. And so the latest one or possibly just the last one I listened to, not quite sure, is called Hoop de doodle. And Steinbeck's East of Eden, as an example, you know, the first chapter of that, sort of describing the valley and everything. And then, yeah, it got you to write a few hundred words on your

own turn and things. But the main point is that it's very, very Pratchett. I thought Hoop de doodle concept. And I think Pratchett is an example of when it's done very well because there were warnings in there about how like, if it doesn't really add to the work, it doesn't have to be completely melded in with the work. But, you know, there should be some themes that can be a bit

like an overture. Yeah. Like, like the start of this book with the flapping stories and everything and whatever it was kind of came on from the nice bit of description, but it came back again and again. Um, so yeah, basically, my recommendation of the week is Start With This, which is a podcast about reading and writing. And now we have listeners, I'm guessing, have some interest in.

And now we're learning the word Hoop de doodle. I thought you'd just picked a new safe word for the podcast, to be honest. I didn't know I was allowed to use a safe word. Considering the relentless amount of bullshit tangents I go on, I figure we should probably pick a safe word at some point. All right, cool. Hoop de doodle it is.

Very relevant for the bullshit tangents. Speaking of, should we, uh, should we make a podcast? Hello and welcome to the Two Shall Make You Fract, a podcast in which we're reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part three of our chat about which is abroad.

Which has been a fantastic book. This has been a treat. Quick note on spoilers. A delight. A delight. Quick note on spoilers before we dive in. This is a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book we're on, which is abroad.

But we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series. And we are saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. Screaming vertically down the side of a tower before managing to get some uplift right to the last second. Yep. Screaming.

Skimming through the roses. Screaming vertically down the side of a tower is how I like to spend my Wednesdays. It is not Wednesday today. Friday. It's Friday. Friday. Yes. Otherwise, I should be at work.

So should I. Right. Shall I, would you like to tell us, actually, sorry, brain fault there? Have you got anything to follow up on from last week? I haven't, no. Have you? No. I feel like I should.

I remember writing something down and then I have switched notebooks. So that's lost forever. I definitely set myself homework, but I'm not being funny when we recorded the colour of magic. I set myself the homework of reading Gormungast. That was a year ago. I have still not read Gormungast. I picked it up in a bookshop and put it back down.

I looked at it in a bookshop. Very big. It only came in the trilogy. I complained about this a year ago, so let's not start again. Right. In my defence, I do quite a lot of reading for this podcast. Yes. Yes.

Right. Would you like to tell us what happened previously on which is abroad? Yeah. OK, cool. Previously on which is abroad? The three witches continue their epic journey slash lovely holiday, pausing to terrorise local out-hustle hustlers and to throw common sense spanners into some works of fiction.

They arrive in January, meet their supporting characters and come to a terrible conclusion. This tiered city has a witch at the top. Yours is more dramatic than mine. My dun-dun-dars are about always sound as sarcastic as your thumbs up. My thumbs up does sound very sarcastic. You've got such sarcastic thumbs. I know, I know, it can't be helped.

Right, so in this... Is there any rounds world dispatching? No, because we're recording ahead of things coming out. Yeah. That is slightly messed up. Although, thank you for everyone's lovely comments on my video tribute to Nanny Og. There you go, that's follow up. Yes, thank you, everyone.

Yes, the boots were red. You can see it on Twitter and Instagram, everybody. And Facebook. Joanna did as she threatened. Or I provoked, I don't remember. You provoked, I filmed myself lying in bed eating garlic sausage with my boots on. Yeah, exactly. Nobody used the safe word.

Which, remember, listeners, is hoop to doodle. Safe words in on a postcard. Please deliver your safe words via albatross. Right. Okay, yeah. So in this section of Witches Abroad, the last bit, the witches begin their plan to interrupt the story by preventing Ella from attending the ball. Nanny gets the coachman drunk as Margaret destroys the dress and the coach becomes a pumpkin.

As the Fat Tuesday celebrations rage around the swamp, Lilith, the second godmother, works her magic to put the story back to rights. The witches conspire again to interrupt, turning Grebo-Human and setting him loose on the coach. As Legba leads Ella to the swamp, the witches decide Margaret shall go to the ball. Margaret enters the ballroom on a wave of borrowed confidence. Grebo enters with a borrowed mask, and Granny and Nanny sneak in to borrow appropriate dresses,

but not before discovering the duck's damp bedroom. Margaret husses, as Nanny and Granny look on, and Grebo comes across a stunned and confused lady violentia. As the ball continues on, everyone tests out their best fancy footwork. Lilith and the duck enter, and Margaret finds herself swept up in the story in the prince's arms. Nanny and Granny attempt to bring things to her head by interrupting the clockwork and bringing midnight forward.

Gogal rallies gods in the swamp as Margaret realises just who she's dancing with. She runs away, leaving a slipper behind, and Granny tries to stop the untethered story. Saturday becomes a god as Grebo finds the kitchen and Ella makes it to Gogal's hut. After some confusion over the fitting of mirrored slippers, Lilith locks the witches up. The witches languish in prison, briefly visited by Nanny's new friend Casanunda,

Legba and the newly deified Saturday set them free, and Grebo arrives just in time to fight the palace guard. Saturday interrupts the ball and fights Lilith's good magic, declares it's him or Ella who shall claim the throne. Granny faces off against Gogal in the name of free will, and Ella becomes a queen as the frog prince falls. Granny claims the right to face off against her sister. Death comes for Saturday as Margaret and Nanny follow Granny's lead,

beating snake women off along the way. Granny faces her sister and seems to jump from the palace tower as all hope is lost. Saved by a temperamental broomstick, Granny makes it back to the tower, destroys the mirrors and her sister with them. Nanny and Margaret arrive in time to find Granny, unconscious but victorious. Granny and Lilith both face death and mirrors, and Granny knows exactly who she is. Lady Vilentia meets Casanunda in the gardens.

As Margaret throws the wand into the river, Nanny writes one last postcard and the witches head home the long way. Yay. Lovely. A lot happened in this reasonably short ending. I see why you chopped it up as you did. Yeah, this is like a, this is a lot. It's all going to get very metaphysical.

Oh, God. You love it when I get metaphysical. I do, but I'm glad I made the extra coffee. Well, that's why I'm on coffee number three now. I'm warming up to metaphysics. So anything you could tenuously link to? Helicopter or loincloth? Broomsticks again.

Yeah, I think Groovo appearing naked shows the need for loincloths. Loincloths missed. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And just four other things we're keeping track of. Now we've made it to the end. This is the first book where we don't go to Angkor Porc at all. Hooray.

Still mentioned. It gets a very brief mention in this section, but yeah, we didn't go to Angkor Porc. We did get death in all three parts. We did get death in all three parts. He pops in again. Well, dressed for the ball. Absolutely.

So we still haven't had a book without death. This is also the first book where, well, the orangutan wasn't explained, but as he wasn't there. Would have been a bit odd to explain the orangutan. Yes. By the way, there is also a librarian at the University who's an orangutan thanks to a magical misfire, but he quite likes it that way. Anyway, back to January.

Yeah. What was your quote then? Yeah, mine's before yours. Yeah. It was really hard to pick one. But I like this. It's a little bit long. Mm hmm. Mist rolled through the swamp and shadows moved with it.

Their shapes indistinct on this night when the difference between the living and the dead was only a matter of time. Mrs. Gogal could feel them among the trees, the homeless, the hungry, the silent people, those forsaken by men and gods, the people of the mists and the mud whose only strength was somewhere on the other side of weakness,

whose beliefs were as rickety and homemade as their homes and the people from the city, not the ones who lived in the big white houses and went to balls and fine coaches, but the other ones. They were the ones that stories are never about. Stories are not, on the whole, interested in swine herds who remain swine herds and poor and humble shoemakers whose destiny

is to die slightly poorer and much humbler. These were the people who were the ones who made the magical kingdom work, who cooked its meals and swept its floors and carted its night's oil and were its faces in the crowd and whose wishes and dreams, undemanding as they were, were of no consequence. The Invisibles.

Very good. I like that bit, because that's the bit of storytelling that always fascinates me is the people in the background whose stories aren't told, because I think it's a very human thing to be quite self-absorbed almost. And sometimes you forget that everyone else around you

has the same incredibly rich inner narrative that you have. It's a realization you have sometimes, isn't it? Traditionally, an airport or a train or something, where you realize all of the other people around you are people, which sounds so silly. But when you're looking at a busy road and every person in every car is having some kind of... Is having a life.

Yeah. It's sort of a thing that you forget about and then it just occurs to you once every couple of weeks or months or depending on how self-absorbed you are. I'm incredibly self-absorbed, so I only notice about once a year. Also, I don't take a lot of trains. That'll be it.

I find the quote very depressing. I do find this depressing. Because I always worry that I'm going to be a swineherd that just dies a swineherd, a little poor. I like to think of myself as a protagonist, but God knows. I have just, unfortunately, I had protagonist hair for a long while and it seems to have stuck.

I'm a protagonist. I think I'm an antagonist. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I like a complicated protagonist. Yeah, I'm an anti-hero. But yeah, it's a concept that interests me because it's something I like looking at when I'm writing.

I like telling stories from points of view you don't hear. That's why I've written a piece about Ragnarok that's from a Valkyrie's point of view. Yeah. I like looking at writing stories from the points of view of the swineherds and the shoemakers. So it is a depressing quote, but I think it's very pratchety to think about.

It's good. It's a good quote. And it does. This whole last book is far too thought-provoking, frankly. Yeah. I could have just quoted the entire fucking section and read it all aloud. Yeah.

So what's yours? Mine is less of a profound one because there are many other profound passages I think they're more fun to talk about at the end when we get to it. So Granny Weatherwax had always wondered, what was supposed to be so special about full moon? It was only a big circle of light

and the dark of the moon was only darkness. But halfway between the two, when the moon was between the worlds of light and dark, when even the moon lived on the edge, maybe then a witch could believe in the moon. Now a half moon sailed above the mists of the swamp. I'm gonna pick that because it's very cool. And because it's one of those mainly unrelated

project passages that is just stuck with me through the years to the point where whenever I see a half moon, I'm like, ha, half moon, better than the other moons. And it's that idea of the liminal, isn't it? That's very popular around the Gothic literature. What's its? Yes, and around Pratchett.

Yeah. Yes, the state between states, the turning point there. And it is such a pratchety thing. It is such a pratchety thing to find the thing that people don't look at. Yes, very. That was a sentence. Yeah, it was, I think.

I'm proud of myself. Well done. Yes, I like that bit. Good. That was nearly my quote. I wasn't. Well, I had, just in case you didn't pick it, I'd shoehorned it in later in the plan.

Oh, good. I'm so skilled. I feel like I have so little to do with where everything goes. You're a very puppet mastery in a very vague way. Yeah, but then I let you edit everything, so. Oh, yes. Yes, that's true.

But it would be a very rare occasion if I had the willpower to edit it in a direction you didn't want it to go. Yeah, very good point. Anyway, so on to characters. On to characters. You started with some minor characters, which ties in with your quote.

Yeah, I thought we'd look at some of the little bits and bobs. I like the coachmen. I think they're all quite sweet and it's very sad because I marked that and put it in the planning. Oh, this is just a sweet, funny moment. And then of course they all die. Yeah, squashed.

Squashed like bugs. Which was a very horror moment. That was a very horror moment, especially in Pratchett, where those sort of deaths are very rarely inconsequential in a Pratchett book. Yes. Even of minor characters.

If you look at the solemnity with which the death of the wolf was treated. Yeah. To introduce these characters and then to kill them offscreen, as it were. Yes. Is jarring in a Discworld book. Yeah.

And I think used very well though, because the shock of the witches is palpable. There is a moment of like abject horror there. Yeah. Yeah. Witches don't kill people. I think it was. Yeah, I have that line.

Marked slightly later. But yeah, they are completely, it's, they're sort of horrified and oh, they just went crack. And Margaret says, witches don't kill people and Nanny just mutters and says, this is foreign parts. Oh yeah. Witches are answered everything throughout the book, but this time it means something.

Yes. It also, the section also made me really want a sandwich to be honest. Oh yeah. Specifically a smoked salmon and crunchy sandwich. It was a stupid sitcom 80s street people joke, but it was actually quite sweetly done. It's quite sweetly done.

It's any innocent comment made by any recently married young member of any workforce is an instant trigger for course merriment among his or her older and more cynical colleagues. Also, I'd love to disagree with the premise of the joke, but I'm like for a few months after I moved in with Jack, I didn't make him sandwiches and that. And after a while I was like,

do you know I don't have time for this, you can make your own lunch, sorry. Yeah. But before we got married, so it was a debate and switch. I have definitely been similar in the past, but now I just make myself delicious sandwiches instead. Yeah. I mean, I do cook for the man every night.

I don't think he's too hard done by. Well. And I waxed his jacket and that's not even a euphemism. Darling. Darling. I'll wax your jacket. I think we had Varence next. Varence?

Why do we have Varence? He just gets like a throwaway mention. Oh yes. Yeah. In this is about Margaret in the pit of her soul in the small hours of the night, she danced with princes, not shy hard working princes like Varence back home,

but real ones with crystal blue eyes and white teeth. So it's just nice because obviously there's not really much said about the ending of Weird Sisters and getting onto this one. Yeah. It's left ambiguous at the end of Weird Sisters. And then all that said is at the beginning of this one, no, she hasn't hooked up with them.

She doesn't want to be a sex object. Yeah. And then I think Nanny Ogg mentions it again because she talks about jumping on his bed. Yes. Like, Margaret doesn't know what she's missing, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's just sort of nice that he's lurking in the background here and. Theoretically, we'll be wandering around Lanka whenever they get back from seeing the elephant. We'll have to find out, won't we, Joanna? We will have to find out. But I just wanted to shout out, you know, he's referenced here, he hasn't stopped existing.

Good. I'm glad to hear it. Yes. Who's next? Humongribo. Oh, yeah. Now we're on to good stuff. Love, humongribo, adorable.

He is absolutely adorable and apparently very sexy. Yeah. As a human, his nose was broken and a black patch covered his bad eye. But the other one glittered like the Sins of Angels and his smile was the downfall of saints. I know. Practically gets very into describing Gribo.

I'll never criticise him for only doing the male gaze anymore. Oh, yeah. We're definitely getting Gribo broadcast a kind of greasy diabolic sexuality in the megawatt range. Just looking at him was enough to set dark wings fluttering in the crimson night. Yeah, I mean, for somebody who I assume is a straight dude,

practically does very well in describing quite primally the... Quite ferally sexy, mate. Ferally, yes, yes. It sounds like he's been reading a little bit of erotic lit from the... I'm assuming that... Bottom shelves of the bookshelf.

Yeah, I'm assuming dark wings fluttering in the crimson night is very much a reference to that sort of writing. Oh, of course, yeah. I bet it is, yeah. What's it called? The very famous kind of dirty literature that you can even get in Waterstones.

It's sort of like the one name. No, no, it's like an author or a maker of books or something. What's that weird sound in the background of you? Oh, it's the extraction fan. The pipe comes up through my flat. Oh, cute. Yeah. It's the extraction fan for the chip shop.

Dystopia lux, clink. I want a little clink sound effect to play whenever I mention that for you. I'll find one. Well, my life is like luxuriously depressing. Yeah. When Mrs. Pleasant meets Griebo, I really like the line and I like her.

What is it? Gleaned like a malevolent emerald. Yes, that's an excellent line. And I also like when he puts on the mask when he arrives at the ball. Oh, that bit is adorable. It really is. The cat-headed man turned his head this way and that,

clearly in love with what he was seeing. Griebo yowled softly and happily to himself and ambled into the ball. What a happy little cat, man. I've always wanted to be ginger. Yeah, he's sweet. I never did talk your masks because I'll forget to say it. I couldn't work out what or if Magrette

had her mask mentioned. I didn't notice anything specific about their masks, actually. Because Nanny's a fox, Granny's an eagle. Yeah, I didn't spot a description of Magrette's mask. I'm assuming she is mask because that's all. She is, yeah. Yeah, because when they're talking about putting her

in the dress, Nanny's like, if I put on the mask, they won't know the difference kind of thing. Yeah, but no, I don't think it really gets a explicit description. OK, I don't know if that's on purpose or not, because Nanny being a fox and Granny being an eagle sounds like a fun little nod to each of them. Yeah, I think it would be hard to do something that's

like very Magrette relevant, but also something that Ella would be wearing to the ball. Yeah, yeah. I suppose being the beautiful mysterious stranger, it might just be something like a simple elegant. Like white sparkly. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Like in a Cinderella story.

Yeah, just like in that, weirdly enough. OK, so I may have watched that when I was in a really bad mood the other night. Oh. No, no, not Cinderella, the animated thing, as in the bad Hilary Duff film with Chad Michael Murray. I don't know that existed. Don't try and tell me it's a classic, because it's not.

I don't believe you. So I don't think it was a Disney Channel original movie, but it's very much in that sort of vein. That sounds quite fun. I like Hilary Duff a lot. Yeah, so do I. Anyway, this is totally over it. Really not the vibe we're going for, though, so.

And then we've also got, apparently, I didn't put in page numbers for this, but Lady Valencia, Derangement, who I just wanted to shout out because she's. Yeah, I looked up a name, by the way. Valencia means goodwill and derangement of the arrangement. So like the phrase, perterangement is not of the arrangement. So goodwill arrangement.

Fair. Something like that. I like how she's sort of described as attends events for the better class of charity. Knows the first names of the cleaner servants and kind to animals and even to children if they've been washed and didn't make too much noise. Yeah.

Again, it's another case of Pratchett flushing out a side character that didn't need to be fleshed out, but the story is written for it. Yeah. And then, you know, to be fair, she sounds quite entertaining. She is that sort of posh person we've all met, who is sort of. Oh, yeah. But she also sort of wants to have a bit of a nice time.

You know, she has her little flirtation with Griebo. She ends up in the gardens with Casanunda. Yeah. And again, it's another one where Pratchett goes out of his way to give a minor character a happy ending, as it were, when he didn't have to. So not when I've taken a sip of my coffee for a second. So we've got her and obviously Casanunda himself.

Yes, a hero for our times. He is one of the great fairy Naniog. He is he's a good counterpart. He is an excellent counterpart to Naniog. Obviously, Casanunda is a reference to Casanova. Reputed to be the world's greatest lover. All right. OK, second, but I try harder, which is a reference

to a weird old American rental car advert, apparently. Really? Thanks. Thanks, Anastasia Pratchett. I like his line about how she get into the palace guard lied about my height. Yeah, he's like, oh, don't mind open relationship. You want to go with a frog? That's that's fine.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. We'll go hide in a clock. Why not? Yes, helping her break the clock and just not asking any questions. I feel like he would be good on a night out. So I'm a fan of him. He would be an excellent sidekick. Yeah. And then, obviously, going on to Saturday.

As in the Baron, as in Baron, not the day. Yeah. Sorry, I'm really annoyed. I seem to have, like, not written down a bunch of page numbers for this section, so I'm we're getting a brief moment of Foley. It's all right. That's authenticity, isn't it? It is. So obviously, Saturday, based on Baron Samadhi, but in this case, he is the Baron who was killed and Gogol

has resurrected him and made him a focus of belief. Being Baron, Baron Samadhi being remind me. So Baron Samadhi, I did a bit of research on this. He is one of the lower of the dead in more in Haitian voodoo tradition. Yeah. He is often predict. He's usually depicted in a top hat and tails. OK, but also with cotton plugs in his nose.

And that's because this is the traditional way to dress the dead for a funeral in Haitian culture. Oh, he's interesting. I could have gone into so much more depth about his background. So he's part of the Guaid family of lower. So lower, like the sort of voodoo on gods, but not necessarily benevolent. Yeah, it's like, like, it's really like from last week. Yeah. Yeah. So the and I'm really sorry.

I am probably mispronouncing all of this, but the Guaid family of lower are these gods of death, I suppose. And they're all sort of live quite they're all quite ridiculous and naughty. And they sort of exist to remind this idea that death is a constant that we'll all have to go through. And the reason they're so ridiculous and naughty is because they are freed from the rules of the living. OK.

And Baron Samadhi is kind of the biggest one for it. Like he's very much known for botchery and swearing and is almost always predicted drinking and smoking. He likes tobacco and rum. Tricks to gods of death. I like that. Yeah. And apparently he runs around the sort of spiritual other world, making a lot of dick jokes, basically. Good. There's lots of interesting things about his history.

Apparently he has the ability to cure any mortal, but we'll only do it if he feels like it or thinks it'll be fun for him in some way. I wonder if it's in that trickster god book I've got. Remember, I got it for Callum, but I accidentally got two volumes. I've got my copy of someone. Yeah. So he's an interesting person. I'll shoot you not. It's right under the table here. Sorry. Carry on.

So, yeah. No, he's, I say, interesting person. He's an interesting god. Yeah. He is a hugely important part of video culture because he is sort of the main... Sorry. Right. I'll put this away. He is sort of the main god of death, almost. And again, I'm kind of looking at this from my Western perspective without a hugely deep knowledge of Haitian video culture.

So if I've made a bunch of mistakes there, please tweet me and let me know. Because I also just want to learn more about this. It's cool. It is really cool. Yeah. Anyone who's got book recommendations, especially, would be great. Yeah. I'll link to a couple of... Well, the Wikipedia asker is actually quite knowledgeable. It's really hard to look things up about him because he's also one of the most well-known sort of Haitian video gods.

So he's heavily depicted in popular culture. Yeah. This is why I like to find, like, books. Book references. For a lot of these mythical characters. I had the same problem with Baba Yaga. Yeah. We'll come to in a bit. Yeah. So, but yeah, I thought it was interesting.

And the way the Saturday exists here, where he's become the zombie and then he's become this focal point for belief and Google, the whole Pratchety idea of belief exists and needs just things to crystallize. And the belief and the idea of the swamp and everything outside of the shining white city crystallizes around the barren Saturday. Yeah. Is a really cool concept. I really like it.

It is. And it's really well described as well when he's got the swamp kind of trailing behind him. Yeah. When he comes to rescue the witches, it's. Yeah, I've always found the swamp. That kind of aesthetics are on word, you know, I mean, vibe to be very good horror. It's good horror. And in this, like with that quote I picked earlier, there's some hope in it.

He's crystallized belief of all of these. Yeah. All of these invisible people. Did you get the idea that there were actual people in the swamp while he was becoming the God or whether it was all metaphorical? No, I thought there were actual people. Yeah, that's the idea of this. The the Samadhi Nui Maw celebrations are happening around the swamp. The carnival is there.

It's not allowed in the city because the city is bright and white and shiny. Yeah. But outside of the city, this carnival is happening all around because that's what Ella runs off to do. Yeah. But where they're like people worshiping. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think Gogol has effectively built this cult of worship around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Sorry.

No, there's just one little bit of description of the sort of idea of the swamp he's carrying. There was the chittering of crickets and the wine of mosquitoes, the smell of moss and the stink of river mud. It's a lovely line. It is. Yeah. I've been to a swamp, a swamp. When I went to Florida, we did a little bit of swamp.

Casual bit of swamp. Casual swamping. I'd like to go to New Orleans area and do that kind of thing. I really want to go to New Orleans. I'm hoping we're allowed to travel next year and I can try and go somewhere near my birthday. Yeah. That might be horrific in June.

Last. If your hair is any longer, the humidity is going to make you look hilarious. Yeah. No, that is fair. I might shave my head if I go to New Orleans. And then there's some stuff with Granny and Nanny and Magra that I just really enjoyed and want to throw in here. Granny's confidence is something I don't think. We've talked about it a little bit. Yeah, when she woke up.

Yeah. There's a great line. When Magra is surfing on the wave of self-confidence that Granny has given her to be able to go and play this part in the story. The tiny Inner Magra struggled to keep its balance on the surge of arrogant self-conscious and wondered if this is how Granny Weatherwax felt all the time. Yeah. I mean, possibly. There's a lot of it through all of her confrontations as well. Like when she's talking to Lily and she's like,

I would have been so much better at this than you. Is her incredible self-possession. But I like her willingness to completely ignore things about herself. So when her and Nanny get dressed up and they've stolen the dresses, so they can go to the ball. And Nanny says, oh, look at us. Those feathers in your hair look really good. And Granny Weatherwax says, I've never been vain to Granny Weatherwax.

You know that, Gither. No one could ever call me vain. No, as me said Nanny Og. Granny twirled a bit. And I like when she occasionally gives herself permission to do things almost a bit wet hen-ish. Yeah. So they're not quite. No. No. Being vain is not a wet hen thing, but it's sort of, Magra is the, I want to be pretty and twirl in a ball gown thing. And I like that Granny will very briefly give herself

just a quick little moment of it. Almost a little bit of follow-up is when Granny calls Magreta hussy. And there's just one line saying Nanny gave Granny an odd look. You know, last week I was going on about how like, it's kind of weird to me that Granny's weird and judgy about Lily being sexual at 13. Yeah. And I feel like this is almost calling that out as Nanny like, why are you so fucking weird about this shit? Because it might be a deliberate flaw is what I mean.

Yeah. Put into Granny's character. There's another moment slightly later on, and I think it's when they're talking about Mrs. Gogol and Nanny said something about, well, also, you know, she smokes and she drinks and the implication, she has sex and Nanny says, so do I. And Granny says, well, yes, but you're a disgusting old baggage gritter. And it's sort of a, she'll allow it on her terms with people she cares about and not with other people. And she's looking for reasons to distrust Mrs. Gogol.

Yeah. Yeah. But she's very puritan, isn't she? She is quite puritanical. I wonder how much of it is that she never got to. Yeah. Which I'll come to a bit more about she never got to later on. There's also, there's a nice line about them being the maiden, the mother and the crone. And Nanny says, who are you calling a maiden? Magreta says, who are you calling a mother? And Granny is sort of a, oh, I've got the short straw there.

And we're putting a pin in the whole maiden, maiden, mother and crone concept on the basis that I'll go right into that next time. Yeah. Next time we hang out with the witches. So yeah, those were just the little witchy moments I want to point out. And you were speculating about Mrs. Gogol and Ella. Yeah. I didn't notice any of the previous times I've read this, but this time I picked up a few subtle hints and then confirmed, as you can see by my sub bullet point,

that Ella is Mrs. Gogol and Baron Samadhi's, Baron Saturday's daughter. Yeah. Well, their daughter. I knew she was Baron Saturday's daughter because that's why she's thrown. Yeah. Yeah. But I hadn't realized that. I mean, it was, it was mentioned that the two had been lovers. Yeah. And then the line, and there were a couple of like references I thought might be it. So it was, what was it? It was, sorry.

Oh, yeah. But do you know what I lost when Mrs. Gogol was on about? It was on at Granny about it. Yeah. There's Ella saying, I've seen you both before a long time ago. But then, yeah, on page 266. Yeah. The Baron refers to her as our daughter. Yeah. I wanted our daughter in power. Do you have Mrs. Gogol?

Yeah. I would, I love like just to spin off about the whole genuine royal family backstory. That would be great. Yeah, for sure. So locations then. We finally see the duck's bedroom, which is, is only like right before he's actually killed that it is thoroughly established who slash what he is. But obviously it's heavily, heavily implied throughout the whole book.

I like that you've come around to the pronunciation of duck. Yeah. I'm just embracing it now. But the pond in his bedroom and the sort of mild horror on Granny and Nanny's face. I like that at the point where they're sort of discussing who might actually have to marry him and Nanny's privately speculating about the length of his tongue. That's a very funny moment. Yeah. She gets pure those in this book, doesn't she? But I like that she's gone from horrified and we cannot let Margaret kissing to,

well, actually, I mean, around it. If I had had time and I was nearly an extra 10 minutes late because I thought you might enjoy it, I was going to photoshop some frog eyes onto a picture of a man to see how it looked. But I'll do that afterwards. That's going to be our follow up for next week. Excellent. Thank you. Yeah. No, that's like really important work.

And then the other sort of new location is we actually go. Well, we've been to Mrs. Goekel's hut before, but this is where we learned that it has feet and can travel. Yes. Which I kind of caught as a Baba Yaga reference, Baba Yaga being a Slavic mythological figure, which and her hut has chicken feet, which do or don't move around, depending on which story you read. But yeah. And then I started reading about Baba Yaga and there's like a bajillion parallels between her and Mrs. Goekel, which is quite cool.

Considering it's like a Slavic myth being mixed in with the Louisiana folklore stuff. Like she's she's the kind of ambiguous, not good, not evil, which kind of figure who sometimes helps, sometimes harms. And then there's like a fairy tale, which is almost a parallel to Cinderella. It involves her and Vasiliya the Fair, who was a poor child with a horrible step family who goes and then works for Baba Yaga or Baba Yaga kind of captures her and makes her work for a while. But she has her mother's blessing in the form of a doll and it's a whole thing. This is the Russian fairy tale I got distracted by and why I'm late. Sorry.

I definitely read the whole thing to you. I could what I was trying to do was kind of write a very short synopsis, but I failed. So go and read it everybody, Baba Yaga and Vasiliya. Very cool fairy tale, which yes, I think Pratchit was aware of. Because that's quite a lot of. Yeah, Baba Yaga is quite a that's another sort of well known folk myth figure, but it's so popular in pop culture, it's very hard to then look out. Exactly. Literally, the only thing I knew about her was like the hut and the legs. Do you actually travel around in a mortar? Yeah, apparently. Yeah, like or a cauldron or a yeah. It's interesting because every source I've looked at

says quite specifically, it's this or that and it's all very different. So Brewer's is she travels around in a cauldron and she's very evil. She's a no-gross not a witch kind of thing. And not the book I looked at. It was there was a picture of her in a mortar. It's like she travels around the mortar and she's ambiguous in here. But interesting. I suppose it is interesting. Thank you, Joanna. Thank you for noticing. You seem very angry at me for being. You're very stern. Okay. I've just had quite a lot of coffee. Speaking of, so little bits we like. Yep, you go. Yeah, so this one this bit just made me giggle.

This is when Nanny is interrupting the clockwork and she's broadcasting under with her. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she did what neither Granny Weatherwax nor Magret would have dreamed of doing in the circumstances. But Nanny Ogg's voyage is on the sea of intersexual dalliance have gone further than twice around the lighthouse. And she saw nothing demeaning and getting around to help her. She's simpered at Casanunda. And she gets him to break the clockwork for her. Because he's incredibly strong little dwarf. And so one of my favorite podcasts and one that you actually introduced me to is The Guilty Feminist, which every episode opens with I'm a Feminist but and quite often the I'm a Feminist buts can be along this line. Yeah, I'm a feminist,

but I did get a lovely little dwarf to help me break the clockwork when I was putting an end to a fairytale. Yeah. But this is like something I am absolutely guilty of. But I have a very strange way of feeling about it. So obviously, because of the nature of my job, we get lots of deliveries of heavy stuff that then has to be put places and lifted around and stop rotating. What have you? You are very strong. I am very strong. I so if someone sort of nicely offers and said, oh, don't worry about that. I'll do it. You you just chill out. I will quite happily let the lovely delivery guy move a bunch of shit around for me. If someone implies that I can't do it. However, I will passive aggressively lift every single heavy box.

Yeah, I am a terrible combination of I'm quite willing to simper be girly and get things done for me. And that is why my wardrobe has doors on it. My speaker system is set up and well, how I got moved into this flat entirely. Obviously, you also took part in that heavy lifting. I was going to say, I've seen from overlifting quite a lot of heavy books and furniture actually, with very little simpering. No, I didn't simper too much on moving day. There was there was a small amount of simpering. But I also very much like showing off that I'm quite strong and winning a butcher off. So yeah, quite often at work, I have known some people largely of the feminine persuasion to go, no, I can't change the barrel. I can't lift those barrels and move them around

and bring them up from the stock room. And I've, or they've come into the kitchen to look for a man to do it for them. And I have to win a butcher off moved large heavy barrels of beer to relevant places to prove I can. I've gone and disposed of spiders from people's houses when they've come and asked for Jack specifically. Like, why would Jack do it? Fucking do it. That I would never do. No, I know. But no, when it comes to hmm, I am no, I don't think I would ever do the the being feminine simpering to get someone to lift something for me. I will, however, just on a very practical level, except when I cannot lift something and accept help. Because although I think in order to subtly prove a point, I did lift some furniture, I probably shouldn't have

done what we were moving you in. To be fair, I lifted a fair bit of furniture as well. Yes, no, I wasn't to play. You didn't. You're stronger than me. It would have been odd if you hadn't. But yeah, no, I, I accept because it would be very foolish of me not to that Jack is much, much stronger than me. But I do not like to avoid lifting something if I can lift it, because I want people to know that I'm stronger than I look. Yeah, I'm definitely in between the two. But I am not going to say that I'm above a feminine simper to get things done. Yeah, do you know, I might just do it unconsciously, but I don't think I do. My main problem is that I will be very good at it. I will occasionally

attempt a feminine simper to get things done, but I am not always particularly feminine, what with my grass, one gender being fairly nebulous. So sometimes. I'll do a little simper to get a coffee occasionally from Jack. I'm not sure if it's a feminine wild thing. I just go, Do you know how much you love me? Oh, and then another silly bit I like is where they're trying to figure out someone's weak point and they land on sortie and knee. Yeah, close enough, isn't it? Yeah. Sortie is apparently doing the job of Achilles now, as well as being a small country near a Feb. Yeah, yeah. I think she gets corrected later, doesn't she? By who? By death?

Death corrects that it is the heel. Something that just popped up a few times throughout that I quite liked was Pratchett's unusual focus on fashion in this book. Yes. He seems very excited about all the dresses and things, doesn't he? I mean, I love it because I am always excited about a ball gown. You know, I'll wear one to McDonald's. Yeah. Well, I would if I went to McDonald's. Yes, I think you have in the past gone to McDonald's in a ball gown. Yeah, probably. Nice dress. Yeah, no, he's on about like rich sleeves, embroidered bodices, fine white lace, the sequins in the parade, and the granny's hat, the new hat, and yeah. The cherry is dangling over her ear to give her a sense of authority. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just like the fact he's

seems to be quite excited about all the different. He's having fun dresses. He is. And that brings me much joy. Yeah. And the masks and nanny's red dress, she's like, oh, I'm not sure about red, which bullshit, by the way. Yeah. It's, I think it's for a fantasy series, Discworld doesn't have a lot of balls. Yeah, you know, I thought about changing the senses. Like the whole fun of the ball itself, the masquerade, like he goes on about the dance cards and things and the anti-rub and like he's clearly like read a little bit about masquerade balls and like, oh, I'm getting in here. Yes. God, I want to have a masquerade ball and colonel mustered. When all this is over,

this damn pandemic and we're announced have lots of people in a room again. I'm so tempted to try and organize a masquerade ball of some sort. Well, I'm never going to turn down an opportunity to wear one of the few pretty dresses I hold on to in case I get invited to a ball. Yeah. I still got my prom dress and I could dye my wedding dress, I suppose. I've still got my prom outfit, but I don't think I could get a single thigh into that skirt now. I think I could still wear my prom dress and I think it would suit me better now because oddly enough, I ended up picking something. I got it from Country Casuals and it's a nice dress and I looked fine, like a 16, but it's more suited to a 29 year old than a 16 year old.

I high neck. For prom, I had a floor length, very tight fishtail black satin skirt with corset lacing at the back and a red silk and black lace corset that my mother had made me. So again, very suitable for your current aesthetic. Yes, with knee-high PVC lace-up boots with red flames on them that my mother bought for me and then affectionately dubbed my hall boots. I've seen pictures of the entire ensemble and you were still wearing your hall boots when I met you. Yes. I see you're taking them off at some point in between. Well, not necessarily going by the video you sent. Different boots. I do still have them. I also had two dates to my prom. What, like April in Parks and Rec? Kind of. They were struggling to sell enough tickets and I was

already bringing one person who didn't go to the school and when they were struggling to bring up, I was like, oh, I'll bring someone else along. We'll have a little threesome. It would be great. Like, as in, there were three of us going to the prom. Think before you speak, Joanna. But yeah, so masquerade ball, throwing that one. We're all allowed to be in a crammed room together again. Absolutely. And we will get your ball gowns out. What animal mask would you wear? It depends on what dress because I would probably make a dress for it. Okay. What do you think? Can you top of your head for appeals? I'm kind of liking the idea of like a really deep, dark green silk and a very kind of face sort of mask, like reminiscent of

oak trees coming to the end of summer, just before the leaves start to turn. Wood elf kind of thing. Yeah. Very good. Very good. I think I would like to go somewhere completely different from anything I usually wear and wear something in bright yellow with like a lion mask or something. Oh, that would look amazing on you. No, bright yellow doesn't generally. It has to be exactly the right shade. But doable. Hanley, you do know a dressmaker. Say that it took me like four hours to make two outfits the other day. I won't make you make me a dress. That's not good. The baskets came out quite pretty though. Anyway, yeah, they were nice. I like those.

What you're going to do is a poll. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. We're meant to be doing a podcast. Speaking of speaking. Looking at pretty things such as maybe looking in a mirror. Oh, yeah. The last little bit I liked was right at the end when Granny is wearing the hat. So, yeah, that's two segues, double segues. Magra hands her a mirror, not really thinking, considering what they've all just come through. And I like the fact that Granny does not throw a fit and takes it and looks in the mirror and therefore kind of breaks the power of it in her mind. She's not going to spend the rest of her life afraid of mirrors. Yeah. It's always the getting back on the horse thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like right away as well. So, it's pretty cool.

And it's a definite show of strength as well, isn't it? Like she could have gone off at Magra for it for being thoughtless after what they've just gone through. But that would have been the weaker thing to do. Yeah. To show. And Granny doesn't really, Granny doesn't do that. No. So, she got over it as a point of pride. So, one of the biggest stuff and this one to be fair, isn't quite as, I've already talked about this bit and this is this idea of making gods and the power of belief and what Mrs. Gogol does. And this line here, a god was a focus of belief. So, if people believed a god began to grow, anything could be the focus of a god. And so, this is the idea, like I said, that she's crystallized people's belief around the barren

Saturday. But there's the other dogs she calls on dogs. It's the other God she calls on as well. I don't have dogs in this book. Lady Bonanna, Mr. Safeway, Stride Wideman, Hota Loga Andrews. Yeah. Did any of them reference anything apart from Lady Bonanna, obviously? Well, so, I did the Google and once again, annotated Pratchett file is very helpful. So, I'll just read this quote from Mr. Pratchett. I needed some good names that sounded genuinely voodoo. One of the names of one of the classic gods is Carrefour. It's also the name of a supermarket chain in my part of the world and I used to grow in every time I drove past. Hence, by discord logic, Safeway. Oh, smart. And I don't think Safeway actually really exists in

the UK anymore, but it was like a UK supermarket chain. I don't think Carrefour does either. No. I remember Safeway. It goes on to say Bonanna, I'm pretty sure is a genuine voodoo goddess. The other two are entirely made up but out of the right sort of verbal components. I thought Bonanna was so. Well, to be fair, I looked up Bonanna and I could not find anything in genuine voodoo. So, I think it was these syllables work together and it sounds real. I'll write down and see if I can find it in any of my obscure. Yeah. I didn't have time to go through books. So, this is all internet research but I mostly just got references to this book. Yeah. That's the problem, isn't it? When Pratchett references something truly obscure, as I'll come to again later, it's quite difficult

to find because all of the references are him. Yeah. So, yeah. So, this is less he is referencing real gods and more he has picked names that sound right. Yes. But Mr Safeway did make me laugh. Yeah. So, making the gods is a pretty cool concept, like trapping gods in a form. Yeah. Trapping them in, it's almost trapping the physical belief to make a god. Yeah. Yeah. And that gives her something of a power over it. She would say, you know, this way the human can ride the gods rather than the gods riding the human. Yeah. Which is a very interesting concept, isn't it? Because the gods riding the human is possession, isn't it? Like being possessed by a god is a thing. And then, but yeah, to possess a

god sounds like something you would only do if you were, for instance, like Baron Saturday, pretty done with life anyway. Because once you get kicked off that rodeo ball, things are going to go badly for you. But it's also for Mrs Gogal. She is very used to being a puppet master. Yes. Which is interesting if you look at the Baba Yaga connotations especially. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Which is also quite interesting in my research. I did come across a few bits about Baron Samadhi's wife, who unfortunately her name I can't remember. So I'm just going to come. I've got it. So maybe. Yeah, no, I like I like Baron Saturday as a character very much. And it didn't really, I knew that Samadhi was a thing, but it didn't really occur to me

to look into it. So I'm glad you did. Yeah, I'm quite glad I did. But what I found quite interesting about his wife is that she is the only sort of goddess of Haitian voodoo Maman Brigitte Brigitte. She's the only goddess of sort of Haitian voodoo who is predicted as white. Okay. And her origins are more in the Scottish folklorist tradition, among others, being brought over into like Haiti. And some background in Celtic traditions, hence Bridget, I suppose. Yeah. And I think there's some interesting parallels between her and Mrs. Gogol is somewhat outside of the rest of the tradition. Okay, Mrs. Gogol's place, especially because she sort of makes herself this puppet master. Yeah. Yeah, I will put some links to some bits about

her in the show notes, because she's quite an interesting figure of her own. So yeah, there's so much to learn about in the world, Joanna. I'm going to get upset about mortality again. I've got a finite amount of brain space, which for some reason is still being occupied by useless stuff like all the words to mackle more songs. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could still sing along to the entire album of The Young and the Hopeless by Good Charlotte. So if it weren't for that, I'm pretty sure I'd be fluent in French by now. I'm pretty sure I could sit down and write out from memory all of the lyrics to every song on Panic at the Disco's debut album. Gosh. I'm not proud of that. No. Especially as it was a concept album based on Chuck Pallaniq. Anyway. Really?

Well, a bunch of the songs are, yeah. You've read Invisible Monsters, right? I have. Listen to the song Time to Dance, and it is just a bunch of quotes from that book. Okay, cool. Anyway. There's like three Chuck Pallaniq books I haven't read yet. I've just haven't been in the mood for about seven years. Yeah, Ditto. Weird. Again, finite amount of time in the world to read things, and I just am not into dark and depressing shit anymore. Yeah, I am, but a very certain flavour just to have a little bit of hope in the nihilism. Yeah. Okay, so foreshadowing. Yeah. It's kind of followed up from last month just that I enjoyed the foreshadowing in the second section, and it's always nice to get the pay off. So

you get Grimo becoming human. Yeah. You get Lily obviously being image of Granny. Yes, lots of different foreshadowing bits are finally tied up in a neat little bow, and I feel like it must have been very satisfying to write. Especially the Hand in the Flames. Especially the Hand in the Flames, yes, which is kind of like a mirror, it's another mirror thing as well, isn't it? It's like the mirror, which by the way, I never did get around to understanding the physics of mirrors, so I'm just going to link the article I found and listeners please enjoy trying to learn about that yourselves. I think we all knew that was going to happen. I don't know why I didn't edit it out of the first section episode. To be perfectly honest, I have a whole section on

the origins of the superstition about seven years about luck for breaking a mirror that I did not complete and it's not made into this episode. Oh, that's cool. See, look, this is why if we ever do Patreon, I like the idea of doing a down the rabbit hole thing, where we just individually get to do our little rants that we decided not to go off on. Yes, I like this idea. We'll get to that one day. So yeah, so the witchcraft in general, especially of this section? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the foreshadowing very much ties up in all these confrontations. Yeah, you've got the two big confrontations really, because you have Granny versus Goebel before you have Granny versus Lily. Yeah, she's fucking well in it, isn't she?

But all of the kind of, all of the discussion around it, and this goes back to this nature of witchcraft thing that we've been coming back to throughout this book, is sort of good versus evil versus free will. Yeah. And what it means to be the good witch and the bad witch and free will seems to be the kind of fulcrum. Yes, I think, I think Pratchett writes from a very classically liberal standpoint. If you look at it, if you're trying to be the puppet master, you're probably not going to be good even if that's what you're going for. Yeah. There's a line in this that is a almost a precursor to what becomes quite an iconic line

of Grannys in a later book, which is evil begins when you treat people as things. Yes. And I'll talk a lot more about that line when we get to that book. Yeah. I mean, we've already talked about this idea of witches don't kill people, and that quite incredible moment. Yeah. I think it was almost hinted at before we got there as well when they were destroying the coach, and one of them said something about, are we going to do that to the horses? And they were like, no, that's weird and cruel, just let the horses go. And that in comparison to Lily who's done all the shit to animals and

people. And yeah, throughout there are little hints that the big differences. There's a couple of really good moments, one of which is Lily in this big confrontation in the ballroom moment saying, there's me or there's the women in the swamp, there's light or dark, there's dark chaos or happy endings. Yeah. And this is something that's a theme through this whole book. Lily genuinely believes she is the good one because she is, if you go into the literal ethics study of it all, and obviously it's been a while since I really studied ethics, this is the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number of people is the most ethical action. And that's versus greatest good for individuals. And obviously, if the greatest

good for the greatest number of people involves removing people's free will, is it an ethical action or not? Yeah. And that's a big topic of debate. And it's a big foundation of Christian faith, especially everything that's wrong in the world is because God was so benevolent that He gave humanity free will. So it's all your own fault. And that was a big part of Good Omens, actually, that theme came up. Yeah. It's practice very much part of the movement of chaos being better than order, I think. I'm not sure if we ever talked about it on the podcast, but there's a lot of study into the kind of flip in literature that fantasy and sci-fi and things used to be more on board with the good guys being the ones who brought order and the bad guys

were agents of chaos. And that's kind of flipped in recent decades. And now Star Wars is one of the big titles. Exactly. Yes. And almost Lord of the Rings, to an extent. Yeah. Less obvious. Yeah, Star Wars is the better example in pop culture. But yeah, you can see it throughout fiction. And I think practice very much on the side of chaos. Goats are not sheep. Yeah. I liked just in the Lily, Granny, Good Evil bit. I like that the kind of symbolism in the fashion again, tying it back in. Yeah. And that Granny is wearing a white dress, just a normal white dress. And Lily comes in in a white beyond white. And it's this false gleaming, brilliant white. And like the mirror image of her and Granny and Granny is the real version of Lily kind of. Yeah. Granny is the

and it's not good and evil. It's this and that. There's real and unreal. It's two different flavours of and it is and it's free. It's chaos versus order. Yeah. Yeah. And Granny is very much the chaos agent in this. Yeah. But the face of the eagle mask with a hobo attachment. The face off against Gogol is fantastic because he's again, it's this versus this rather than good versus evil. Yeah. Once again, Granny is fighting for the side of free will and chaos here. She, her and Gogol both want Ella to be queen, but Granny wants Ella to be queen, whereas Gogol wants to be the power behind the throne. Yeah, be the what's the puppet? Readency. Yeah. Eminence, Greece. Yes. I was trying to think of the word that wasn't that greasy eminence. Yes, that's the one.

And there's a excellent line just for the sake of Granny, where Gogol's threatening her. And Granny says, I've got nothing but the greatest respect for Mrs. Gogol, a fine woman, but she talks a bit too much. If I was her, I'd have had a couple of big nails through that thing right now. Now he's like, yes, he would, wouldn't you? Just as well, you're good, isn't it? Listen, Granny has to constantly be reminded that she's good. And rather than trying to separate this into talking about the two confrontations separately, just talking about it as a whole, the Lily versus Granny face off, the moment that really got me and I think is so perfect for Granny's character.

Her eyes to sapphires of bitterness is an amazing piece of description. Yeah, we're very much into the gemstone eyes. And gemstones in general, actually, there was like the difference between sapphires and diamonds for the cooking, wasn't there? Yeah, carry on. And this is when Granny's saying, I'm going to give you a hiding Lily, she says, it's not because you were the bad one, not because you made up with stories, everyone's got a path they've got to tread. But because, and I want you to understand this properly, after you went, I had to be the good one. Yeah. And this is where all of Granny's business where it comes to her sister, and where all of Granny's business

about wanting to preserve chaos and people's free will is the fact that she had it taken away from her. Yeah, yeah. She didn't get to choose to be good, she had to be good. Which is an interesting thing in itself, because obviously she didn't. No, she had free will the same as anybody else, but she has such an ingrained sense of responsibility that she's blaming on other people. Yeah. Which is cool. Because it makes her not evil. While we're on the topic of good and evil, this doesn't quite fit in this bit, but I need to mention it. Oh, is that Margaret's line? Margaret's bad take. Yeah, where have I put the fucking book? I've lost it. Oh, it's under my

notes. Yeah, no, I'd written that down as well. It's a very weird line. It's a shitty take. Like I highlight the first time I read the book through when I don't take notes. I did take a picture of this and go, like, don't forget this. So yeah, it's, it's dark locking us up, said nanny. I'd have had us killed. That's because you're basically good, said Margaret, the good innocent and create justice. The bad are guilty, which is why they invent mercy, which is such a bad take. That is such a bad take. It sounds like a, I don't know, one of those, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Speaking of someone who did a level philosophy in ethics, that's a teenage take.

Yeah, no, it is. And I think practically knows that very well. Like this is a very naive take. And that this seems to be someone who doesn't believe in rehabilitation or in thinking before acting or in mercy. No, and that there's some kind of black and white judgment that's going to always come out the correct way, because the bad are guilty, which is why they invent mercy, you know, suggests that there is some om, not omniscient power that would be able to say for sure whether they were good or bad. Yeah. Yeah. Margaret has got a very black and white way of looking at the world. And she learned shades of gray through this book, I think. Yeah, but I mean, this is right near the end. And it's still such a shitty. It is a terrible take. Yeah.

Yeah, maybe lose most of my sympathy. But you know, I've been on and off angry with her all book. Yeah, I still have a lot of sympathy for her, because I think that comes so much from, it's a theme with Margaret that she would learn things a lot quicker and better if she wasn't constantly left to figure it out for herself. Yeah, but then I feel like when she is told stuff explicitly, she rejects it as well. I think Nanny is crying quite hard a lot of the time. The moment with that flame payoff, I love that Granny stops and looks at her for a second. Yeah. And there's sort of a, there is a moment where it sort of explained to Margaret a little bit. Is that the general and the specific? Yeah, the sharp end of

witchcraft. Yeah. What was it? Margaret says all that stuff she was saying when we were traveling, it was so cold, not wishing for things, not using magic to help people, not being able to do that fire thing. And then she went and did all of those things. Yeah. And Nanny explains that when Esme uses words like everyone and no one, she doesn't include herself. Yeah. Well, that's terrible. I was like, well, that's witchcraft. Yeah. And it's very much human nature as well, which is being the kind of distilled human nature thing here, because nobody, the phrase being you judge other people by their actions and yourself by your intentions. Yeah. This is a bad thing to do, but I know I meant well. Yeah. And you never give the same generosity to others.

Yeah. And sort of to circle background to, I think what's so good about this book, and it is obviously a fantastic book, is the lack of clearly villainous villain. Lily Weatherwax is obviously the antagonist of this book. But she believes, she believes she is the good one. She believes stories are the best thing. And she believes that taking away free will will have the greatest good for the greatest number of people. So she is not just a villain, although she is incredibly villainous. And like I said, very casually kills a bunch of people. Yeah. I'm not defending her. I'm just saying it's not as black and white as she is the bad guy. It's like us playing the Sims. Yeah. And then you also have Mrs. Gogal, who is

not the villain, but is an antagonist as well as a friend. It's not the villain possibly only because she's not in charge. Yeah. She's the underdog, but she has a very similar driving force. Yeah. She is more of a parallel to Lily than Granny is. And yeah, you have this free will and chaos fulcrum that those two villainous people kind of spin around. And I'm using the word fulcrum wrong there considering I'm now talking about spinning. It's cool. Metaphore is not my strong point, which is Granny, who is pretty much motivated entirely by spite. Yeah. Yeah. Wanting from her perspective to defend free will because she feels accurately or not that hers was taken away because she couldn't choose to be good.

She had to be in her mind. And the thing is, I think, given the choice, she would have been good anyway. But not getting the choice is what has made her who she is. Yeah. And made her such an incredible witch. Yeah. Cool. I think that's a good point to stop there before we get too existential. Yeah. Let's not have existential crises. It's a Friday. Existential crisis Fridays. Yay. Yay. So do you have an obscure reference for me? No. Oh, literally, I don't. Well, I did have a couple, but I went down a dead end and I found it more interesting than any of the ones I found. So I'm pleading for help. Pleading for help. This is a plea for help. That's what I mean. Fuck me. So when we're in, when we're looking at the buffet

during the ball, there is a throwaway line where it is and more fruits, boiled lobsters, nuts, cakes, creams and trifles than a hermit's dream. And I was like, ah, that jogs something somewhere in my memory that I think that's quite a weird little obscure throwaway line there. What the hermit's dream of it? Hermit's dream, but yeah. And it's like, well, it could just mean like, because hermits don't get to eat a lot. And so that this is what they imagine in the head. But somewhere in my head, there is a half remembered story where a hermit is hallucinating himself a wonderful feast every day. And I cannot find it for the life of me. That sounds really familiar to me as well. Yeah. So, but I need to go and look in some actual books

because this was the last minute Google I was doing and feast obviously also means like Catholic feast, which means I'm just getting a bunch of fucking saints. Yeah, which they might also be a saint, but I'm not I'm having a hard time searching for this properly. I couldn't find anything brewers. And I didn't get much further than brewers outside of the internet. So, if anyone knows what the fuck I'm on about, please get hold of me. Yes, if the term hermit's dream sounds familiar to you or any stories about hermit's hallucinating feasts, please let us know. Oh, fuck. What? Is it small gods? You're really funny. If it is, sorry, mild spoilers for February's book.

All right. Yeah. Okay. I have a horrible feeling that I'm just thinking of another Pratchett book. That's entirely possible. In which case, it still might be a reference for something else. But okay, yeah, readers, readers and listeners, please get hold of me, because what? Please tell us what we're talking about. God, we're lucky we're pretty. They don't know that. We've got a YouTube channel. Anyway, I think that probably wraps up our discussion. All right, my other obscure reference was they mentioned a major domo and a major domo is like the head of household stuff. So there you go. There's something. Thank you, Francie. Okay. So I think that does wrap up our discussion on witches abroad.

I think it would better really. It's been a journey. It has. And a proper journey this time. Not a metaphorical one. So we're coming to the end of the year now. We will hopefully be popping back into your ears probably around Christmas Eve for a bonus Hogs Watch special in which we will be chatting about Rihanna Pratchett's new book, Crystal of Scorns, which is a Choose Your Own Adventure novel for the Fighting Fantasy series. Yeah, which should be popping through my door sometime today. Excellent. And then we'll be back properly in January. We're going to have a brief break from

the Discworld. And we are going to talk about the Dark Side of the Sun, one of Terry Pratchett's earliest novels. Yeah, this is entirely because of Joanna's weird obsession with making sure the Hogfather lines up with Hogs Watch next year. Yeah, we're going to take a couple breaks from the Discworld next year. I'm not going to lie. I'm also trying to make soul music land on my birthday. So your birthday present to me can be watching the Blues Brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I know how to do the of soul music. Yeah. So be ready for that in January. We'll also possibly against our will be talking about the BBC Watch series because it will be airing in January.

Oh, yeah. You know, I'm over all of my bitching about it now. I'm sure it'll be fine. I really find it hard to stay angry about things that aren't politics nowadays. So I'm not angry about it now, but like, you know, how quickly rage can flare up at me. If I like stub my toe anywhere near watching it, then it's just going to be rage for three hours. Speaking about Christmas, by the way, listeners send in letters for the Hogfather. Well, this, at the time this episode goes out, we will have already recorded the Christmas episode. All right. Well, do it anyway. So we can go, well, that was too late. And then we'll just read them in January and said it would be great.

Yeah. Like, very pointedly not grant your wishes. In the meantime, until the Hogs watch. If you have any ideas about hermit hallucinations, or if you'd just like to get in touch with us, we always love to hear from you. You can follow us on Instagram at the true show Mickey fret. You can find us on Twitter at Mickey fret pod. You can find us on Facebook at the true show Mickey fret. You can join our lovely subreddit community r slash ttsmyf.

I think there's about 14 of us, but yeah. It's a small community. And of course, you can send us your thoughts, queries, castles, albatrosses, snacks and hermit hallucinations. The truth shall make you fret pod at gmail.com. And until next time, dear listener. So we're going back said magrat. Yes.

But they went the long way and saw the elephant. All right, I think we're better on there with that slight self-legulation. God, I love you. You're a delight. I know, and I love you too.