The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 51: Men at Arms Pt.3 (Clown Eggs)

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Men at Arms”. Clowns! Eggs!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Holding a gun to a mushroom - Reddit (I can’t find the original tumblr post)Blue John CavernThe Clown Egg Register - Atlas ObscuraThe Fascinating Reason Clowns Paint Their Faces On Eggs - BBC FutureThe Deserter (Fairport Convention) - YoutubeMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I'm an idiot. Oh, so I, I mean, no, thanks. Thanks for leaping to my defense there. No, I got a loaf of saldo on the go yesterday and it needs to prove overnight and then bake in the morning. So I put it and it proves in the fridge. And I meant to bake it this morning. And I got up early to watch the Drag Race finale, totally forgot about the bread and then only remembered like half an hour ago, which is now I would be getting up every half an hour to check on it while we were recording. So I'm waiting till after. Okay, but then you get fresh evening bread. Then I will have fresh evening bread. And I've bought bacon, like a big bacon sandwiches for Sunday breakfast. Good stuff. Good stuff. I've lard on to the fruit tonatees. Carbonara. Oh,

yeah. I won't show you because I'll do it wrong. But I am not someone who has strong opinions about carbonara. That's good. Because also quite easy to just throw the bacon on at the end, which means you can basically make cacio pepe and then just throw the bacon in the non vegetarian one. Yeah, that's what has to be has to be done for these things. I'm not making two separate pots of I did last night. So they're made two separate pots of pasta, but I need because I can't see the more creamy sauce and Jack had meatballs and I figured that would go better with tomato. Yeah, meatballs and creamy sauces is another one. I think the Swedish might do that. But the Swedish don't put tops on those sandwiches. So what are you going to do? I put jam on things as well.

In places which yeah, they're boys and berry. Yeah, I have a king of gooseberries. Mary, that's what I meant. Yeah. I love gooseberries. I love gooseberries. I didn't know they came in tins. Exciting gooseberry falls. I made a rhubarb and pineapple crumble the other day. Oh, yeah. Because I had rhubarb, but obviously when you boil rhubarb down, it suddenly becomes very very small. And I didn't have any other fruit apart from canned pineapple. And so I googled it and like the BBC had done one. So I was like, okay, so it can't taste like offensive. And yeah, it was really nice. So new recommendation. I need to get some rhubarb. I want to do a rhubarb in French Pantat. Well, it is as you will guess by the fact I had it in season. And the if you

don't make it down a market day, the Baker and Langston place. Oh, they do some fresh produce outside. Yeah. And they had rhubarb when I walked past yesterday. Excellent. I can actually like bimble around town and pop to a couple of shops now. I know. Yeah, I went to boots the other day. It was very exciting. I'm resorted to getting on my skincare on Amazon now. I'm a bad person. I am not above that. I just often can't find what I want on Amazon now. Oh, yeah. I'm I know exactly which brands. Yeah, I got some like hydroloric acid, like weekly exfoliating thing because the daily stuff just it just makes it worse. I know I've tried like a million things now my skin just doesn't like being touched all that much. Have you tried glycolic

acid rather than hydro? Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can use that as a toner and that's fine. But like as an as like a daily exfoliant, it's still too much. So it seems like the weak stuff is a toner and that's fine. Yeah, I do the glycolic acid is a daily exfoliant and then a rosewater toner. We've covered the magazine segment. Make yourself a rhubarb and pineapple crumble and then cover yourself in acid. Brackets 2%. This is a very acidic cosmetic magazine. Oh, yeah, yeah. I feel like we need some alkali in here. Fun fact, pineapples eat your tongue. Well, now I've got an enzyme in there that's why your tongue hurts. That's why I needed poke my tongue to demonstrate to you what a tongue is. Yes, I was wondering. They've got an

enzyme that starts digesting you. So pineapples eat you back. And it's something quite haunting about pineapples eat your tongue. I like that sticky that's going around everywhere about how we eat dead mushrooms and mushrooms eat dead us, which seems like it is a bit sinister but in quite a nice comforting circle of life way. You know, I don't mind if mushrooms eat me. The Tumblr post about holding a gun to a mushroom and saying tell me the name of God you piece of shit. Yes, I feel like it stemmed from that. That's still my favorite Tumblr post of all time. Like Spored from that. Oh, nice. Yeah, mushroom puns. Does Pratchett ever get very into mushrooms? Mushrooms definitely come up in witchy books. Yeah, we've talked about

have we have we hit the quote where it's like every mushroom's edible once. We might have done. I don't know how to say hard to say. So tell me about anything. Pratchett. Do we have any Pratchett news? I don't believe we've got any Pratchett news. No. Not noticed any Pratchett news. People have started the hype up for the carpet people stuff like I posted that link. Yeah. That's not for a couple months. Yeah, is it? The books that the new anniversary edition of the book has come out. Oh, is that why that was? Yeah, that's why people are hyping about it. The official anniversary is until November. Yeah, that's cool. And we're doing Stratton next month. Yeah, we are doing Stratton next month. I will

confirm. Flinging ourselves backwards in time to placate Joanna and her birthday. No, it's the Proto Pratchett season. Yes, okay, that one. Yeah. Yeah. But mainly so. Joe can make me watch Please for Others around her birthday. Yeah. Oh, I guess we can't watch that together still until when are we allowed indoors together? Not till like June 21. No, I'll have to do a remote watching at the same time. Yeah. Okay, that's sad. But better than nothing. Yeah, technology. Yes, I'm enjoying this. I was about to say, how did they even do podcasts before the internet? We did. They didn't do that. It was called the radio. Yeah, the radio front. In the same place. Or they did that like a reporter on the field

saying, yeah. Yeah. It's quite a big thing. I feel like a lot of people have heard of radio. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just like an English conceit for you there. Now for our foreign listeners. The radio, no. I was speaking to someone the other day who never realised that podcasts comes from the fact that they were first designed for iPods. It took me quite a long time to realise that. Because, yeah, it's just one of those words that seeped into the general awareness and it wasn't some release. Oh, speaking of Apple and podcasts, they've had some announcement recently, haven't they? We'd better check we're still appearing on Apple podcasts and that. Yes. Because there was a bit of a problem with, well, Apple podcasts have launched some premium

service, which we're not going to bother with, so don't worry, listeners. And I think because of that, we might need to have a look at our admin on Apple podcasts, but there we go. You can do that. Bit of metal for you there. Yeah. A little bit behind the, I would say behind the curtain, breaking the fourth wall. Breaking the fourth wall behind the curtain. You break through the fourth wall. There's a curtain. Pull it aside. We're here. Hi. Take three lefts and a right. Do not accept a wish from the small dog with three ears.

Yeah. If you hit the radio station, you've gone too far. Yeah. Back in the past. Well, we're flinging ourselves next month when we talk about Stratus. All right. Let's go get a coffee. And then let's make a podcast. Yeah. Let's make a podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Two Shall Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan.

And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is the final part of our discussion of Men at Arms. Yes. The men, they've been at arms and they're back. They've still got arms. They've been two arms. I've got far too many arms now in the weaponry sense. Know what they say about big weapons? No. Oh, I was hoping you did. I've got more. What is it they say about dwarfs?

Note on spoilers before we crack on. We are a spoiler light podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book we're on, Men at Arms. We will find out who done it. But we will avoid spoiling any major feature events in the Discworld series. And we're saving any in all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. In a horse and carriage towards an ominous town. Exactly.

Watch out. Via a vine's wedding. Yeah. Cool. Cool. So where do we usually start? Follow up. I don't think I've got anything to follow up on. Have you? I still haven't read Gormungast. Obviously not.

Speaking to the bit. Yeah. No. I don't need you to tell me every week that you haven't read Gormungast, by the way. Please don't make that a bit. Damn it. I was going to make that a bit. We can't up the percentage of bits in this podcast right now, Joe. Fine. It's like keyword saturation. It might be better for Google, but it's very bad for the rest of us.

Sorry. No, it's the answer. No, I don't think I have any follow up. Sorry. Okay. Well, in that case, would you like to tell us what happened previously on Men at Arms? Yes. Sorry. It's on paper today, so it's a little bit confusing. Previously on Men at Arms. Cuddy and detritus become best buds, bonding over mathematics and a couple of near death experiences. Vines picks up more puddles. Vines picks up more puzzle pieces and starts to make the shape of a gun, but not before the explosive device claims another murder victim.

And then veterinary winds the spring too far and Vines falls off the wagon. He's shoved back on by his colleagues, but at this point he is done with this nonsense. And heads home for a bath. Finally, a breakdown in law and order. See his carrot take charge. It seems as though he's a born leader. My little suspense there. I like that.

For the people who've clearly read the end of this book. Yeah. I'm assuming people listening to this have read the end of this book. Yes. We are not a substitute for proper medical advice or reading. I would feel really sorry for anyone who tries to read this, to listen to this, having not read the book. Yeah. I mean, Jack tried a couple of episodes after we stopped doing the whole recap recap and he was like, I'm sorry. I can't. I don't know what you're talking about. Which is bad. Speaking of, this was a fun recap to write for this section.

Yeah. You've been ringing your hands over this for a couple of days, so I'm looking forward to hearing it. Look, a lot happens. I'm sorry. This one went over a page, but I have tried to keep track of the mystery as it goes along. Okay. Cool. Right. So go. Carrot in the newly formed city militia poses auditors at the armory and to try to speak in the recruitment drive. Our rag tag recruits head to the falls guild as carrot politely interrogates Dr. Whiteface.

At this point in the murder mystery, we know that Beano and Edward were friends. There's a hole leading from Beano's room to Ed's and in the falls guild museum, we learned that the murderer may not have had a face. We know that Edward killed Beano, borrowed his clown face, cut into the assassin's guild, got the gun and got out through the falls guild in his comedy disguise. Anger goes to investigate the assassin's guild and loses her uniform in translation as our murder mystery murderer argues with the gun. A furious Dr. Cruces discusses matters for Dr. Whiteface.

People are protesting. Coldface is unjust arrest and Carrot takes quirk down before releasing Coldface to join the watch. Meanwhile, Anger and Gaspe meet the dog's guild. Somebody is climbing the Tower of Art as a chaotic recruitment drive continues and Anger heads back to the watch house in search of sensible clothes. At this point, we know that Edward is in fact the latest corpus derelictae and a third man is haunting the rooftops gone in hand. Anger finds herself in Carrot's room and the world moves for them both

before Moonlight makes a startling revelation and Carrot picks up his sword. The world goes clink. He didn't even stop to change the places. Up at the Tower of Art, the gun holder grumbles to himself about gun guild leaders. Down below, the recruitment drive continues, Carrot sends Gaspe to find Anger and day breaks. On Vines' wedding day, preparations begin and Gaspe gets lost. Men watch from every available rooftop as Nobby goes on a special mission to collect the late Edward's body and cut he heads up the Tower.

Vines, waiting for his bride at the unseen university, hunts for a best man as Gaspe finds Angwer. Shots are fired from the Tower and Vettanari, Carrot and Detritus all take hits and Angwer heads to Carrot's side before being rudely interrupted by the dog's guild. Big Fido doesn't make it as Angwer and Gaspe run. We mourn the loss of Lance Constable Cuddy and yes, I did cry as Detritus finds his body. Carrot puts the word out that they have Edward alive and in custody and a confused Vettanari watches on as Angwer streaks through. Vines heads to the tunnels with Carrot and finds Dr Cruces in the gone waiting.

At this point, we know that Ed killed Beanoam and was present as the gone killed Hammerhog. When he turned himself into Dr Cruces, Cruces killed him before claiming both the gone and the mission to bring a king back to Runtmore Borg by getting rid of the civic leaders. Carrot attempts to arrest Dr Cruces and Angwer takes a bullet as Cruces fires. Vines gives chase through the tunnels and they catch up to Cruces at the Assassin's Guild. In a final confrontation, Carrot kills Cruces and destroys the gone once and for all before taking talking down a grieving Detritus. As Vines celebrates his nuptials, Carrot takes Angwer back to the watch house and tidies up.

He hopes that it really is only silver that kills them are confirmed as Angwer wakes up. Two days later, the watch gather in the rain to put Cuddy to rest. Carrot and Vettanari discuss a much needed watch upgrade and a much deserved promotion for Vines. Carrot and Vines happily redesign the watch as Gaspe leaves the rich comforts of his new home. Yeah, I think that was everything. Yes, so all of that did indeed happen. It was a bit convoluted. It doesn't seem not convoluted when you're reading it, does it? It's only when you try and tell somebody afterwards, well, you see, what happened was we will get to the eggs and he didn't have it, but he had a nose, but you know, you know, yeah.

He had a nose, but he didn't have a nose. Yeah, you know, may or may not have had a face. Yeah, it's yeah. So go on. Helicopter and loincloth watch. So I put Clatchy and fire engine here mostly as a placeholder because I was very tired when I was planning. I knew I wanted to talk about it somewhere and I sort of dumped it in helicopter and loincloth watch till I found a better place to talk about it. And then I forgot. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Then you called me out in the episode plan and wrote, oh, do go on. I can't wait for you to justify this as a helicopter. So now I'm doubling down and fire engines and helicopters. I kind of feel like I only put that in two hours ago, so I don't

think you were going to take it out of that. Oh, no, I did the episode plan yesterday and then this left my brain. Please assume at all time that I am no thoughts head empty. Yeah. My path of aggressive notes are from now on going to be in the show plan, just for efficiency, you know. Yeah. We don't want paperwork everywhere. So anyway, I'm doubling down. I'm not going to explain myself, fire engines, helicopters, and it is better to light a helicopter than curse the darkness. That's what I always say. Yeah. Also, Nobby getting distracted and swinging around with his morning star very much makes one think of the blades of a helicopter if you're desperately trying to make a connection. Oh, I was thinking of like the dying throws of a galaxy, but yeah.

Yeah, that's it. But yeah, helicopters go very wrong very quickly because of that, don't they? Yes. If you fuck a helicopter, like if you watch a helicopter crash, as all of us who enjoy browsing our catastrophic failures to do on a regular basis, it is very much morning stylish. Actually, I'll give you that. Yeah. Yeah. It's also apparently very much a thing that people who are used to helicopters never duck as they get into them because they know the blades aren't going to get hit by a helicopter. They know the blades aren't going to hit them. Yeah. So very rich people, but obviously actors playing very rich people aren't necessarily used to get into helicopters and automatically duck. And it's one of the big things that gets pointed out,

succession, did it very well, all the actors train themselves not to duck because they're always getting in and out of helicopters and succession. That's interesting. The only people who notice are film nerds and rich people who get in and out of helicopters. Yeah. I know rich people aren't the only people who use helicopters, but like anyway, ambulance, what's it? Oh, yeah. And obviously, we see the librarian, he's not explained, but it's having a lovely time with the organ. Isn't he? Yeah, I looked up some obscure organs and that just in case it was clearly based on a real one. And although there are some fucking massive and impractical pipe organs in this world, I can't find an obvious parallel. So BSJ is on there because it's Design Mobility,

Stupid Johnson, but that is also Johann Sebastian Bach backwards. Yes, but Pratchett said that wasn't his intentions. Yeah, I know. I just wanted to sound clever, all right. Okay, sorry. I'm sorry. Quotes. You're first. Yeah, I was going to pick there's so many beautiful, profound moments and amazing discussions of grief, but I had to go with this because every time I read this, I thoroughly belly laugh. Oh, mate, it's the best. Yeah, it is amongst the best quotes in the whole book, even though it is, as you say, a quite profound read. The clown's hair rose, water squirted from his buttonhole. Have you got an appointment? He said, I don't know, said carrot. Have we got an appointment? I've got an iron ball with spikes on, not be volunteered. That's

a morning star, Nobby. Is it? Yes, said carrot. An appointment is an engagement to see someone, while a morning star is a large lump of metal used for viciously crushing skulls. It is important not to confuse the two. Isn't it, Mr. Eraser's eyebrows, boffo, sir? But so if you could perhaps run along and tell Dr. Whiteface that we're here with an iron ball with spikes, what am I saying? I mean, without an appointment to see him. Thank you. Oh, carrots. Brilliant in this, he really is. This is, I think, some of my favourite peak carrot moments in this section. Yeah. Yeah, mine is similarly silly-ish. Well, it may be not, actually. Mine is a very good example amongst many good examples of

practically just doing perfect little lines of theatric tension, I think, would be the right word. But anyway, you shut up, you horrible man, said to Tritus, drunk with power. You could have heard a guillotine drop. That's such a good line. Yeah. I'm going to try and use that in the future. Cool. So characters, speaking of boffo, we didn't mention him last time, but I just feel like we should because he is called boffo and so is the shot what the witch is like. Yes. A little connection there. A little connection there. I don't know if it's an old family name. Could be. Could be. I have old family faces in the Fools Guild, so. They do. Flint and Moraine? They're the two trolls in the armory that Tritus recruits,

but you may or may not remember that Flint and Moraine were actors in moving pictures. I did not, but well done, yeah. That's Flint's names himself, after he's the Clint Eastwood reference, I believe. Oh, very good. Well done. Yep. I did not remember that. Well, the other one's called Blue John and something. Blue John and Vauxhall. So they're all rock names. Actually, Blue John's quite cool. So Blue John is a really, really pretty mineral, but it's only found in about one mile of underground caves somewhere in the... I've been there. I've been through the caves, the Blue John mines. Why Ilson? No, it's not Wales, but it's northwest. I don't think it's far from Wales.

I was trying to remember when I went and I think I was coming back from Blackpool. I think I remember where I went underground, but you're not as scared as I am. Well, no, I mean, I remember going through the mines and stuff very clearly. I just don't... We used to quite often stop at cave systems and things like that. So I don't remember where I was coming from or going to, but it's very pretty. Cool. And yes, quite rare. I like the... I'm just picturing the idea of Blue John blushing when he said, oh, yes, Blue John's actually a very pretty mineral. Oh, thanks.

Sorry. Falol Ron. Falol Ron. Is this our first Falol Ron? I believe this is our first Falol Ron. You may have had brief mentions, but he's introduced here. He's as a mutterer in the beggars guild. One of the reasons I think this is very early Falol Ron is that he's muttering to himself. I told him I'll give him the wrong end of a ragman's trumpet. So I shall bugger a millennium hand and shrimp, which was previously said by Berserp in multimedia. Yes, yes. The wrong end of a ragman's trumpet, by the way, is an expression of a crude surprise, apparently. Fuck me with the wrong end of a ragman's trumpet

would be the full free. And I looked it up. It appears that a ragman's trumpet is much the same as any other cheap trumpet. So I think it just sounds good. I like that. I might start using that one. And then, sorry. Yeah, I wanted to revisit characters as we often do. And as I was saying on the quotes bit, carrot is really peak carrot here. He gets to be brilliant. And this is the thing I've kind of been talking about in the whole book where he's often kind of it's played for laughs that he's got no sense of irony. I think Angra notices at one point in this section. Yeah. He is very, very clever. Yes. And he's fully aware of the fact that

there's a great line about, I think it's Colin says, you know, he's very used to carrot being quite simple. Yeah. And he'd got used to simple carrot, complicated carrot was unnerving as being savaged by a duck. But he's just a lot more self aware than I think it's, you see him being in other sections, you know, Angwer is pointing out people do what he says because he's carrot. Yes, well, I think probably the point is that he becomes a lot more effective as he's given this responsibility to lead. Yeah. Because, you know, the whole point is he is born to it. He is the, he is the natural leader. This is kind of yeah, with magic thing, running parallel to this weird practical thing. Yeah. You know, puts the sword in the stone, which I

guess, as we've always said, is a more impressive way to do it. And I like that that was foreshadowed earlier in the book. Yeah, well, I think in the last section, they're all discussing kings and knobby starts saying, Oh, it'd be better if we had kings and they get on to the yes, how do you know if someone's a king, pull a sword out of stone, there's probably someone in there with tongues holding onto the sword until the right bloke comes turns up. That's right. Yeah. But there's also his awareness of it and the fact that he doesn't want it. And it's this idea of you wouldn't want someone to be king who wants to be king. Yes. And Angwer points out, you know, are they, they call you sir. And he says, Yeah, I know, and it's not right. People should think

for themselves, but people will only think for themselves if you tell them to. And how do you spell eventually? Yes, I don't. There are so many little one line of moments in this that make me very happy. Yes. Yeah, no, his, his refusal to rule is very good. And I think veterinary sees it like in the end, but as well, when they have that little exchange, it's very easy to persuade veterinary of the yeah, veterinary and carrot are kind of both letting each other exist. I think carrot knows that if he wanted to seize power, he could because he's carrot and people listen to him because he's carrot, but he doesn't want to. So he's letting veterinary have the power essentially.

Yeah, well, it's the difference between like that, because he talks about puppets, doesn't he? It's the difference between having a puppet and something made of clockwork. You need something that will go on its own. You can't just rely on the puppet master always being around. Cool. I made several notes about carrot, but the only one I deemed good enough for the shown plan was that he sharpened his pencil on a sword, which is just the most badass thing. And I kind of want a sword just to sharpen my pencils on now, so. Well, now I know what to get you for your birthday. Yeah, maybe don't give me a sword. Actually, yes, I've seen you. You know how people who want

power shouldn't have power. I think people who want swords shouldn't have swords. That's fair. Actually, yeah, no, I've seen you existing. You should not have a sword. Yeah, yeah. I don't defend myself there. Carrot and Angra. Angra, Angra, Angra, Angra. We decided on Angra. Good. Yeah, we learned on Angra. Carrot and Angra, I ship them. It's cute. I like it. My note in my note-taking notebook is Carrot and Angra heart, but then in brackets, Horpitz, because they're mentioned underneath. Yeah. And as we've been following the progression of Horpitz to the Street of Negotiable Affection,

I just thought we'd keep an eye on that. But more importantly, Carrot and Angra. Heart. Heart. It takes me on to my main note about Angra, which is when she's run away and Gaspode is sort of trapped down and trying to get her to go back. And Gaspode is very wise for a small, raggedy talking dog. He'll speak and you'll have to obey. He's talking about the kind of weird dog-like relationship she's ended up with. He says, but if you do go back of your own accord, then it's your decision. Yeah, I hated that. I don't know that I hated it. I don't like that the book keeps delving into this relationship with Carrot and Angra. It's just like Carrot's relationship with everyone else where he would

never abuse the power he unintentionally has over people. Yeah, I don't believe it says anything bad about Carrot. I just don't like that the concept of, oh, well, if you consent before that choice is taken away, then it's your choice. Yeah. And yeah, I know it's not like that deep, because the point is she's meant to be a dog. But yeah, I don't know. I didn't love that. I don't love it, but I think it's an interesting point. I love Carrot and Angra together, but they only work because that dynamic doesn't, if that makes sense. No. And I think as we go into future books, we get to delve into their relationship dynamic a bit more. Yeah. Yeah, we'll revisit this point. Yes. But also, I just don't like Angra. Oh,

yeah, nice. She's great. She did. She did good. And then yeah, a sad bit, but just write this in Cuddy. But the helmet. Cuddy designing the Clockwork helmet for him so that he can think better because he's got the cooling fans. And then, but something I kind of noticed with Cuddy, I always, you know, whenever I think about this book, the big thing I remember is Cuddy dying. Yeah. Because it's not often you get a major character death. I haven't really had a lot of those so far. And okay, he's a character that's only been introduced in this book, but he is a main character of this book. Yes. And a big part of like the overall theme as well, like the dynamics between. Yeah, the Tritus and Cuddy relationship. And his actual death is really anticlimactic.

It's off screen, isn't it? Yeah, it's completely off screen. You sort of have him climbing the tower and notice the rope and then a few pages later, Colin finds his body. Yeah, I can't, I almost like that. I, yeah, I do and I don't. I wish he got a bit more of one last big moment because he's a very big character with a lot of personality. So it's a good jarring moment in the sort of go, Oh God, he's just not there. I think the kind of pointers he doesn't get at the last big moment though, isn't it? Because the point is that it's not this whole story for a big like reality, isn't this big story of a lot? Last dance. Last dance. Thank you.

And all of that. Yeah. Like in reality, people just get killed by bad people. Off screen. However, I thought he got his own little dramatic moment in a way in that he got, he was found with this like beam of light upon him, which I thought was a bit lower to the ring. Yeah, that was definitely a moment. And Detroit is in the grief moment. Yeah. Seeing his reaction to it, which is a bit of a, you know, it's not quite fridging, but this idea of a character dying to further another character's emotional development. That's fridging. Fridging is when, and it's quite often a wife character gets killed to further a man's development. Okay. Which isn't what's happening here. No, I don't think Detroit has changed us in any massive way as a person.

No, he's changed as a person because of Cuddy before. But seeing his grief, the way he goes very, very quiet and then stands up in this mountain like way. That entire page is just fabulous description. Yeah. It's moving deceptively quickly like lava was such a great description. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of really good depictions of grief actually as well when Carrot goes back to the watch house with Angra's body and obviously he's hoping she's not dead. He's hoping it is silver, but it's described as anyone who didn't have that very human mind wouldn't understand what he did next, which was tidy up, sweet, because it's his turn. Yeah. Polishes armor and sit down to write a letter home to his parents because that's

what you do when you're grieving is you stick, you cling to the weird little normal things. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was very, I guess. Second car of the book. A lot of emotions happen in this section. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then moving on to something not emotional, not me. Well, I mean, the emotion is that emotion is euphoria. I just faced euphoria. I thought this section, I think I love this section when we go to the Armory and I'd like to say I love the appointment slash morning style conversation. But so far when we've had not been in the books, it's been not being colon,

they've been a double act. And I like when we get this seeing him on his own and the way he does. Yeah. He's not on his own, is he? He's just coming into his own with colon there in the background. Yeah. Yeah. When he gets to do something independent of the double act and he bursts in, it turns out, you know, we get a bit of his backstory that used to be a very dodgy course master alongside Robin Corpsey's on the battlefield. Yeah. Yeah. He's a weapons master. He's a enthusiast. A very good blogger, which you can kind of believe of him from what we've seen in the books, but the fact he manages to very competently walk in, do the audit thing, get everything. Yeah. I don't think we've seen

the moments where they get to be either him or colon, get to be like just aggressively competent at something before. Well, I suppose colon standing on one leg, trying to shoot. Yeah, I'm not sure I call that aggressive or competent to be honest. Well, yeah, I mean, he doesn't actually. I call that touchingly optimistic. There's a fine line between aggressive competence and touching optimism. Well, there isn't our lives, but we're not entirely successful people. I do fall down a lot. Yes. Yes. I like Nobby finding his meteor. Yes. And civil dimes. Oh, yeah, I just wanted to give her a bit of a shout out because we

haven't spent much time with her in this book compared to the last one. But I think it's very sweet that, you know, the whole plan has been that her and Sam would get married and Sam would leave the watch and she was going to turn them into a bit of a gentleman. And when at the end, Kara turns up and says, actually, you're commanding the watch now and we're going to get it set up and vibes is maybe like, right, let's get a map. Let's start doing this. And civil just very nicely sort of smiles and lets them crack on with it and goes off to feed her dragons at no point. She says, but Sam, you're not supposed to be in the watch. You're becoming a gentleman now.

It came to paragraphs after she had the realization that like, oh, he's lost that kind of spark in him. Yeah. So I think she was just able to process that very quickly. Oh, all right. Well, that was that problem realized and solved within half a paid excellent. Yeah. And I like that she's supportive and she goes off to feed her dragons. I support their relationship. Yeah. And that passive map just happens to have a map around. And of course she is. Oh, thank you, dear. And who else we've got? We've got Big Fido. Big Fido. Yeah, you didn't even put him in the character list. What the hell? Yeah, I think I look at me adding things. Well done.

Yeah. Yeah. In fairness, not not like huge amounts to say there apart from I just feel like he needs to mention because that is a good mental gang leader. Like it's really well done. Got the bad eyes of a proper associate of house kind of thing. Yeah. I love the poodle reveal. Yeah, that was very good. That's the old trope again, isn't it? The unexpected leader of the gang reveals himself. And the big the description of anything with eyes like that could kill anything it wanted because true madness can drive a fist through a plank. Yeah. It's a very disturbing character. And yeah, short lived in RIP, but I mean, well, yeah, maybe RIP. Well, what do you mean RIP? He's in the he's in the mountains,

football, leading a wolf pack, don't you know? Oh, yes, of course. That's what I heard. Yes, no, that's what I heard. So one eyed Rover told me. And I like the idea that the dogs briefly started a religion about visiting his collar and then yeah. And then yeah, I've put the gun down as a character as well. See, I actually did that and then deleted it because I was worried I'd put too much in the episode plan. Yeah, they're gone just because one ring parallels massive there. And I just found it really interesting. They put like a fantasy parallel in with the crime parallels. Yes. And I'm wondering also how much of it he intended to be like directly this is somehow magical objects and how much he intended to be a allegory allegory. Maybe it's this idea

of someone is holding this thing and it starts whispering to them and is it a fantasy thing? And the thing is whispering to them or is it holding this power brings out this voice in your head? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then not for Kara. Well, no, because Kara already has the power and has chosen not to use power. This is my conspiracy pose now. I don't have the room I did on the sofa to flail about about a people I've got. I think this is I don't think it's really a conspiracy that has power and uses not to use it. I think that's just the major theme of his character. Yeah, but I was using the tone of voice. You weren't using the conspiracy thing, the tone of voice. It's very true. Wake up, people.

It's, oh, how do you say it in Tumblr speak? It's conspiracy coded. Lawing clause heavily implied. We didn't even mention lawing clause. Oh, I figured they're so heavily implied that I didn't even need to mention. Just seem a bit much. All right, locations. Okay, yeah, this is just an excuse to talk about something I was interested in. I was like, I was looking at the phone. I was like, she was talking about the eggs. Why hasn't she put the, uh-huh. I thought I was going to break it up a bit more interestingly. The Hall of Faces in the Fools Guild, where all of the clown makeup is trademarked on blown chicken eggs.

Egg face TM. Trey Bunker egg face. This is based on a real thing. So I'm going to call out annotated practice. It's not as, it's not completely creepy. I've linked to a couple of things about it in the show notes and there's some pictures. There's a whole book of pictures about this, actually, which I didn't order myself. I could have gone down. Didn't you? No, but I'm thinking about it. I could have gone down a much deeper rabbit hole on this and I might another time. Yeah, do, do. We can do one of the Patreon modsets on this. Yes, I am thinking about that. So I'm going to call out annotated practice, likely,

because according to them, clowns faces a trademark and cannot be copied by any other clown, unlike clothes or a specific act. If you are a clown, you can send a photograph of your face to the clown and character registry where the face is then painted on a goose egg, a tradition dating back to the 1500s and stored. Now, from my research, that's not entirely true. I couldn't find anything about history going back to the 1500s. In fact, I couldn't find anything about, well, there is stuff about clowning going back to the 1500s, because obviously it's got as early origins and things like Harlequin aid and the Comedian Del Arte, but specifically clown and full faces and then being something that nobody else could copy, I can find no major

evidence of that going down that far. Sure, but you don't have all the sources they do necessarily? No, I know. I'm not saying they're definitely wrong, based on what I did find out though. So originally, there is an official clown's church in London. It's in Dulston in East London, Holy Trinity. It was originally St James's church where Grimaldi, who's considered the father of modern clowning, was buried, I think in the 1940s. And fun thing, obviously. This whole fucking section is so serious and so stupid. I know, it's completely ridiculous. We had the Fools funeral last week. Every year, and it doesn't happen at Holy Trinity, which is the official clown's church, because they do it

at a slightly bigger one, there is a Grimaldi memorial service where clowns attend in full motley and there is much. Is there a wiggling of a bladder? I believe there is a wiggling of something on a stick. Anyway, so the whole clown's church, they moved to Holy Trinity in Dulston because there was a fire and St James's became de-constructed in the 1950s. I was at that still ruined one that people use the venue now. I think so, yeah. So the clown egg process, and it's ceramic eggs rather than... Clown egg process, all right, title. I don't often spot the title during the episode.

But it's ceramic eggs rather than chicken or goose eggs that he used, and it started in 1946 by a guy called Stan Bolt, who was a member of the International Circus Club, now known as Clowns International. And Stan Bolt was what was called a suit, which was someone who was a member of the club, but not an active working clown. But he started doing it to commemorate well-known clowns from history and popular clowns. It was never meant as a trademarking thing. And it still happens today. Clowns International have an annual competition to become the Clowns International egg artist for the year. The article I was reading was a few years old, so I'm not sure who the current

edit egg artist is. I finally found my limit of nonsense before I just start making our unhappy noises. We found it, we found it. So Debbie, who's the person I'm going to quote from, each egg takes several days of painstaking work to complete, and she's paid a mere £15 for each one. Oh, what the fuck? Come on, Debbie, raise your prices. So this egg thing started as kind of commemorative, and it's evolved into- Clown egg painters need a union. That's what I'm getting from this story. So it has evolved into kind of a useful as well as commemorative method of storing clown faces,

but it's not a copyright, it's not a legal copyright in any way, shape or form. And I found a really good article about informal intellectual property and how it relates to the whole clown egg thing. So there's some on display at the Clowns Church in the Holy Trinity Church, and there's also a bigger display of them somewhere in Bristol. It was at the Wookie Hall Museum, which we've been to, although I don't remember seeing a clown egg thing, but we could- There was so much random crap that I may have seen it and forgotten it on account of the Victorian pornography. Yeah, there was a lot of Victorian pornography. Go to Wookie Hall, that's really fun. It is really fun, you get nice cheese. Yeah, I'm not sure if the clown egg thing

is still there, if it's moved to a museum in Bristol, because I couldn't find an article from the last 12 months. Okay. But it was moving at some point in 2019. So while the egg registry exists more for a posterity thing, there are members of Clowns International who try and maintain an official written registry of clowns so that people don't copy each other. Okay. And there's a lot more history around this I could go into about the origins of clown makeup, but like I said, I'm going to save that for another time, because I don't want- I don't believe that L Space didn't have a source for that. No, I don't believe they didn't have a source. I just, I can't find any history of clown eggs before the 1920s. That's it. It's the phrase

clown eggs is very upsetting. Yeah, I tweeted about this and someone said they linked me to like a podcast short horror story about clown eggs that I'm assuming involves clowns hatching and I've not listened to it yet. I very nearly put it on last night and then realised I shouldn't listen to that before bed. No. But I will give it a listen. All right, send me the link as well and we'll listen to it. Yeah, we can have the same nightmares. We'll be cute. Okay. Oh cute, matching nightmares. So in summary, the clown egg registry does exist, but it is not for trademark purposes. Well, thanks. I hate it. You don't want to go and visit the clown church with me in East London. I mean, not right now. We'll see after we've listened to the horrible story about

the clown eggs, but I changed my mind. So little bits we like. Shall we talk about white supremacy? Yeah, sure. That's more fun than clown eggs. It's not. That's not. Yeah, I just noticed that the description of the dog gang sounded quite familiar about the the dogs kind of talking about this superior race that they were apparently a part of. Yeah. And about destiny, about discipline, about the natural superiority of the canine race when they're not actually anything like this idealized fictional almost version of bulls. And it just sounds very much like Terry Pratchett is having a massive dig at white supremacists there. Yeah. And I enjoyed that. And that's all I have to say about that. And it also reminded me of

the whole like alpha male stereotype that dickhead white men buy into and like literally everything they think they know about wolves and alpha males is based on a study of wolves in captivity and completely wrong. Yeah. And it'd be loosely based on that study. Yeah. Everyone is wrong about everything and it's terrible. Speaking of not really. You've got another thing in. Oh, yeah, there's another funny song reference in a footnote. The Chronicles of the Events of the Man of Recruitment Drive, which is a reference to the song Rack of Highway or the Deserter. There's a very good Fairport Convention version, which I have linked to in the show notes. But my interpretation of the popular Ancmoorport folksong. Oh, yeah. As I was walking along lower

Broadway, the recruiting party came picking up people by their ankles and saying they were going to volunteer to join the watch unless they wanted their good who looked heads kicked in. So I went by Peach Pie Street and Whole Ferns and said singing to Ralu Rye. Yes. Yeah, cool. Catchy. I didn't manage to get the nasal passage and tin whistle in there. I'm sorry. Yeah. Disgusting. I mean, I am the worst. I am a terrible human. You'll get emails from folk singers, folk singers, folk song historians. That is not our thoughts on folk song historians. We don't just think of you and go, I'm actually quite interested in folk music. Me too, but imagine specializing in it forever.

You'd go mad. You'd be terrified during the night. What would you like for breakfast this morning, Ralu Rye? Please shut up, Candice. I can't. Anyway, complaints about my dismissive attitude on her postcard, please. Albatross, that's to the usual address. Yeah. And then my other little I liked was the couple of callbacks to Lords and Ladies concepts, which was very quick callbacks to quick callbacks to core concepts. Say that with a mouthful of folk song. Sorry. The point of an evil man going on about it and a good man just killing you straight away. That is very Lords and Ladies, right? Yeah. Hints of which

is abroad as well. Yes, little hints of which is abroad. And then personal not being the same as important. Yes. One we focused on and has come back again and comes up as the mark of, or it is discussed internally, I think by vibes as the mark of a good ruler. Yeah. It's almost terrifying. Where the lacks of the two people with the power who refuse to use the power to the best of their abilities on account of knowing that that's a bad thing. Almost a terrifyingly good ruler. And it is confirmed in the section, which I don't mean it was in the previous section, that stone face who took down the king all those years ago was Vines' ancestor. Was the Vines. Which may play into future books. It may. It may.

Yeah. And then on to the biggest stuff. Yeah. This whole thing of strict cultural rules, I thought was quite interesting. Mostly because one bit in the book that's always sort of bugged me a little bit is the moment with the blank egg. Yes. Sorry, I just want to bring up clown eggs again. Yes. Thanks. Good. Right. So when Carrot says, I think this is the face of the murderer and shows Boffo the blank egg, Boffo is horrified and runs away. And I always thought that was quite silly. Sure. Sure. As opposed to the rest of the clown egg stuff, which is really sensible. Well, I mean, it's got some basis in reality. But doesn't mean it's sensible. And we learned nothing. Fools and clowns in the disc world are generally very,

very sensible people. And to take this culture around the eggs and the trademark faces and you would never use someone else's face so literally that you see the blank egg and you're horrified. Are they sensible people or just very off-steer people? They take the whole thing very seriously. That doesn't mean they're sensitive to do so. Very true. But taking that so seriously that you're horrified by the sight of the blank egg and being told that the murderer doesn't have a face and running away, I always thought was just a stretch too far somehow. But then I looked at it more in the bigger context of the book and the way it compares all of the weirdly strict cultural things that seem silly. It makes a lot more sense. You've got the clowns and their faces

and taking these clown faces to be such a strict reality for themselves. Yeah. Has these direct parallels to the dwarves and the tools. Yeah. And you'd never use another dwarf's tool that's icky. It's like licking couple knobs. Yeah. I think as well the fact that Boffo was it still that we're talking to was kind of primed to be thinking of faces like face at that point. They'd been talking around the subject in a very literal way. Yeah. And so yeah, it's not like they just came out and they were a shoulder of an egg. And it's in the big dark creepy room clown eggs and candles. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you'd almost say like they were doing leading questions and stuff like put your real nose and all that and get him really into that mindset and scare him

with an egg. And it comes up a couple of other things. You know, assassins killing without being paid. It's another. Yeah. It's just not done. Just not done. It's just not done to steal a face. It's just not I mean, obviously, generally we recommend in day to day life do not steal people's faces. Yeah. But it's just not done to steal a clown's face. And it's just not done for a dwarf to use another doorstores. And it's just not done for assassins to kill other assassins. Yeah. And yeah, it may sound a bit silly, but there's plenty of it's just not done in our culture, which makes no sense. Yeah. The more you think of the dad, he cares. Like, yeah. And yeah, it's one of those things that you look at something that's such a strict cultural rule from an outside

of perspective and go, but that's ridiculous. But then when when you're in it, it's very well, yeah, but that's the way we've always done it. Yeah. Yeah. And the dogs play into it really well. This whole idea of the power and the dogs knowing deep down that they are a bad dog and everything that poor doggies, that everything that humans have done to make them what they are is the biggest sort of manifestation of that, you know, dogs have built this entire culture around what humans have done to them. And then you take someone like gas boat who bridges the gap and goes well, I've chewed enough books to know. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was kind of a fun theme to really come to a head at the end of this,

as you look at someone is trying to completely shift the entire culture of at more ball back to a monarchy. Yeah. And it's a it's a kind of culture that's never quite died out in the hearts and minds of some people. Well, no, as we saw in the last. Yeah. Yeah. And as we saw in guards guards, they're always slightly primed to be monocled. But cruises and to a certain extent Edwards methods for doing this were to create this breakdown by taking out guild leaders. Yes. So to break me. Yes. But what do you think about Dr. Cruises being like, Oh, Edward was mad, but I did exactly the same thing. And that was saying for the same reasons. I think it's interesting because it's it is this idea of once you have the power and in this case, the power is the

gun. Yeah. You suddenly feel completely justified in all of your actions. And you you get that cognitive dissonance thing. Yeah. But to the point where he was like, Well, Edward did this thing. And that was silly. But I'm doing this exact same thing. And that's not mad. I think it worked. I think it showed just how it was completely lost all self awareness. I did have to go back and reread the monologue was like, did he actually distinguish himself? And so I can't see that he's said that he's doing anything differently. I think it's because he already thinks of himself as better and more intelligent. Yeah, therefore, he assumes that it's not the because the actions are now being performed by a superior or more intelligent man, they must be more rational

than when they were being performed by a. Yeah, it's the ball base logic. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay because I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a terrible error to put that as part of your evil man monologue, because it just makes you look silly. Yes, stop making yourself look silly in your manifestos. Cool. Yeah. And who isn't this clever? Who isn't this clever? Yeah. Yeah. My next talking point, which is not very well structured, I'm afraid. But unlike this book, segue from my talking point to my talking point, it's I know I said this last time or possibly in the first section that I don't remember now, but the amount of just clever little bits and callbacks and themes throughout this book just

makes it incredibly satisfying to read, like even when you're not paying attention to them, but especially when you are paying attention to them. So like, I really like the running theme of clockwork throughout. So like right from the beginning, you get the clockwork soldier and have a whole workshop. And then you've got like, it's very explicitly described that it's a clockwork helmet that detritus has got. You've got the city running like a clock, as veterinary says, you've got. And finally, you've got the clocks that saves the day. Yeah, the watch, the clockwork watch. And yeah, just the theme of clockwork being good progress, it seems like. And and as I said earlier, I think the parallel it being paralleled with like puppetry was good. But it's like, yeah,

things just working on their own without being pushed to do so. It's quite a good thing. The need to be wound up every now and again, and then tying in with that whole breaking point of the spring with vines. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, something I actually found a bit disappointing is that we don't get a vines and veterinary resolution. Yeah, like I, there's not room for it so much happens in this section. But after veterinary has pushed vines, and then realized he's broken, and he just kind of shows up to his wedding and get shot. And then it's the, yeah, but there's that whole moment there, I think, where vines gets to be very much a watchman. Yeah, I think, I think veterinary gets to see it, but they don't

get to have the conversation about it, because it's carrot-based. But they wouldn't really would they anyway? No. Yeah, no, I think it was more important that carrot have the moment with veterinary. Yeah, and it would have been weird to have both of those in the same book. Oh, yeah, no, I get why it's not there. I just would have also liked to see it. Yeah, true. We always like an epilogue. Yeah, and I like, I like the vines. More epilogue, the better. Anyway, sorry, I derailed you there. Oh, no, you're all right. Yeah, yeah, just there's a few bits like that throughout. I like some of the running seems like just the glint of gone in the moonlight a few times was quite cool. And just moonlight being a thing

throughout. I liked, oh, there was a tiny one that I thought you would enjoy, which was colon going hark at the dogs on page 297. Yes. Yeah. I thought that the tunnels, when they visited the tunnels right at the start, and it was mentioned that it looked like they flooded occasionally. Yeah. And then you've got the fact that the Antmoor Ports being in summer and it's very dry and the river's low. And then yeah, I thought it was very Chekhov's gun. Yeah. I read it. I was like, I don't actually remember if these flowed, but I bet they did because that was very good foreshadowing and in a way that practically wouldn't, practically wouldn't leave the gun in the holster through the play, basically.

Yeah. And yeah. And then finally, my favourite little clever thing in it is the candle in the darkness, which is Vimes having a fucking fit about candle in the darkness in the last thing when he's having his breakdown, then the flamethrower in the darkness, which is one of those quotes that's kind of stuck in the public consciousness. And then when they're in the tunnels and they do the, he does the confrontation, Vimes lights a candle in the darkness and it fucking blinds him and he like says explicitly, I wish I can let that lantern in the darkness. Yeah. Candle in the darkness. Excellent theme. I really like how that's my favourite, especially into that final confrontation.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't like candle in the darkness. Yeah. Like a flamethrower or a helicopter. Somehow this podcast has just become me finding new ways to make you hate me. I mean, I do the same to you. It's fine. The candle in the darkness time through is very good. And I like the, it also, it's nice because you've got that balance between Vimes and Carrot and who's got the power. Vimes needs to be the cynical one who does not like a candle in the darkness. Yeah. To counteract Carrot's belief that deep down everyone's a good chat, really. Bless his little optimistic heart. So the last thing I wanted to talk about, and this is kind of carrying on from last week, but obviously it's the big crux of

this section is this whole idea of good and bad policing and a good or an evil man. And this is, this is the whole thing that the book holds on. You've got, let me just find the quote because it's, it's a popular one from this. If a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man, because the evil like power, power over people and they want to see you in fear. So they'll talk and they'll gloat. Yes. And this ties into then later on when Carrot takes cruces down by literally shoving a sword through him and into a pillar and Vimes thinks, yep, don't piss off a good man because he'll kill you without a word.

Yes. And it's, Vimes himself is kind of the gray area between the good and evil man, because he is, when he's ends up holding the gun and he's kind of wrestling with it, whereas Carrot doesn't, when Carrot ends up holding the gun, he immediately smashes it. Yeah. So it's just, it's just a thing. It's just a device, but Vimes has to reckon with it. So he is this gray area between good and evil man where he has the, he has the potential for evil, but he has to think his way too good. He's not automatically there the way Carrot is. Yeah. And that goes back into what I was saying, the interplay with Vimes and Carrot is you need Vimes to be the cynic. Yes. Who doesn't want to light a candle in the darkness. Yes.

But then you have the question of Carrot who, you know, kills Dr. Cruces. And the book is obviously saying, yes, he is a good man. He killed this bad guy without a word, but he also did just kill a dude. And yes, the dude is a bad guy. The dude shot a lot of people. And we've seen very much, we haven't seen so far any form of criminal justice system in Ankh-Morpore beyond the watch existing and having some holding cells. Yeah. So yes, he knows Cruces is guilty, but I think in a later book, guilt wouldn't have meant a quick death. No. And Vimes didn't kill him because he was trying to do things by the book. I'm like, I know it's like the lead up to when this clock stops, I can kill you. But he knew that as a guard, he was not going to kill this man without a trial

or whatever they call it. A due process. Yeah. A due process. Yeah. I also thought that Carrot told on himself a little bit when he did the minimum necessary force by knocking a dude out which I know it's like the kind of, like in the last book, what I pointed out, it's like the Justice Pawn, but it's like someone was like, yeah, the hero is coming in and flattening the annoying mayonnaise guy. But it's like, well, actually, I think minimum necessary force would be probably handcuffing him or something like that. Yeah. You're much bigger than this man. You don't need to seriously injure him. I'm very pleased that quirk got knocked out. But yes, that's not minimum necessary force. Yeah. This isn't good policing. No, it's very, yeah.

But and it kind of bugs me with Carrot because this is the portrayal you might have is that he is the good man. He is the man who will kill the bad guy without a word because there's no need. He does not need. And the point is that he is not taking advantage to the fact he's got cruises at his mercy. He just disposes of him to stop him from hurting other people. Yeah. But he could have arrested him instead. And he does try and arrest him in the tunnels. Yeah. And I, and I think when Pratchett says things like a good man, he doesn't always mean like that is the shining example of someone you should try and be. I think very much some, yeah, someone who is less black and white, someone who is violence is kind of the self insert bit, wasn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. It's like Magrat's bad take all over again, isn't it? Yeah, there's something about that. But Carrot then seems really hypocritical because he kills cruises without a thought. And then a few pages later, when detritus comes in ready to very much fuck shit up, it's Carrot who talks and down and says, my friend, you know, Cuddy would be looking up at you saying, my friend acting constable detritus won't forget he's a guard. I don't know if that's hypocrisy so much because, I mean, at least Carrot's kind of overkill was very directed and it, you know, is more like a surgical operation than detritus who was just going to come in and hit the entire guild with a siege weapon. Yeah.

And I think Carrot knew how to talk detritus down because, you know, it's being the good leader and that. But it's making Carrot this person who knows what good policing is when he's... Yeah. And, you know, maybe it's another demonstration of the reason why having the puppet master in charge is a bad idea. Yeah. I'm not sure it goes that deep. I think you're probably right. And that was just a bit of a, but if I want to talk my way around to it being a deeper message, I can. I think it's good to look at because obviously we're not reading these books in a vacuum and if you compare what... Oh, I knew. Oh, that would make it so much easier if I stopped reading this in a literal document. You can't not compare what's happening in the

round world to it and without going deeply... Oh yeah, I should have made jokes around that bit. Sorry. Yes. Fine. Well, no, but with what has happened, especially with policing in the round world, it's very hard to read something like this who, when they are, you know, my favorite, probably my favorite story arc of the disworld books and a lot of my favorite characters. But especially when we're this early on, the line between good and bad policing isn't quite laid down in the books yet. Yeah. And yeah, that's kind of realistic. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It wouldn't be, would it? I think the idea of good policing definitely, Sam Bynes kind of tries to evolve during the time, doesn't he? So, during this time.

And this idea of justice. Yeah. And that ties into the witch's books as well, of what justice is and what justice Granny is willing to meet out. Yes, definitely in a lot less formal kind of way, but in a justice... I'm determined about this kind of way here. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And Granny's got that same kind of moral gray area that Vines has that needs, I guess Nanny's her carrot in this situation. No, I don't think so. I think Granny's her own carrot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, Nanny's are being onto herself. Yeah, there's not a direct parallel. I mean, Vines doesn't need carrot to get onto the good side of

the gray area. No, exactly. Yeah, he'd already, as Kara said, you put down the gun already. Yeah. Oh, it's just that he probably then would have been shot. And I'm glad he wasn't because I quite like these characters. Yeah, no, for sure. Poor old Cuddy, eh? Poor old Cuddy. RIP. Renaming ourselves the Cuddy Memorial podcast, we're not. No, I know. I think that's all I had to say. A name babbling was most of my thoughts. It wasn't a name. That was very name. Oh, thank you. No, very aim. Oh, shit. That's another one of these prefix words. All right, follow up.

I'll get to Googling. Follow up. Etymology of a name. In the meantime, by the way, I did check the the etymology of the various stuff and evidence does indeed come from Vida to see. Excellent. And police comes from. Yes, police and politician both come from the city, yes. Excellent. Uh, sorry. Yeah. No, my scare reference is one I thought you'd enjoy. I believe I know this reference. Yeah, I thought you might. So on page three, two, one, three, two, one, quote. The guard of honor for a violence is wedding. And

guard of honor all sorted out. Yes, sir. The cohorts all gleaming in purple and gold, sir. Really? Very important, sir. Good. Clean cohorts frighten the life out of the enemy. Good. Cohorts, of course, being one's colleagues and colleagues in the military. I don't know if you follow fightery people. Good. Excellent technical military terminology there. Anyway, that's the joke, but it is a quote from the destruction of Senacirib, Senacirib.

I believe Senacirib. Senacirib, cool. Yeah, you're the Byron groupie. And it is, look, sorry, that's very mean thing to say. You like Byron's poetry. Lord Byron's poetry, not a creepy. Yeah. The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold, and his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold. And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea when the blue waves roll nightly on deep Galilee. Love it. Yeah. Love a bit, Byron.

Fucking love it. Got a love of it, Amita, and Ryan there. But anyway, yeah, so I googled that line. I was like, well, that's clearly from a romantic poet. There it is. I was like, could be Chesterton. Could be Chesterton, because it reminded me a little bit of that one where he's, oh, you know, a really long one. Oh, yeah, no, I know the one. Don Juan, what's it? Don Juan. It's Don John. It's called Don John.

Think thingy. It's got my stash. It's the whole thing. Copper kettle drums, you know. Yes. Good. You can't tell from this podcast, but Francine and I are actually both very into poetry. Well, you know, we're quoting it badly, but how many people off the cuff can go, you know, it's like that other obscure poet. D.K. Chesterton obscure poet. Well done, Francine.

Fuck. We should stop now. Yeah, I think that is everything we can say in a full sentence about men at arms. And a lot of what we can't say in a full sentence, but we managed to get there anyway. Clown eggs and all. So next month, we are going to return to our proto-Pratchett season and talk about Strasser. Strasser. When a Pratchett's early sci-fi novels, we're going to do it with your dark side of the sun and do two episodes rather than three. Okay. So I've got the schedule in front of me and organized.

So our first episode of Strasser will come out on the 10th of May. So we are going to have a week off still. And our second will come out on the 17th of May, and then expect some bonus content around the glorious 25th, obviously. That's it. Leaving room for the glorious. Thank you very much for listening to The Two Shall Make You Threat. You can find us on Instagram at The Two Shall Make You Threat, on the Twitter at Make You Threat pod.

You can find our Facebook page at The Two Shall Make You Threat. You can join our subreddit community, r slash t t s m y f. You can send us your thoughts, queries, castles, snacks and albatrosses at the Two Shall Make You Threat pod at gmail.com. And if you want us to support us financially, you can go to patreon.com forward slash The Two Shall Make You Threat and exchange your hard-earned cash for some bonus nonsense. And Joanna promises not to spend all that money on books about clown eggs.

But do not. And in the meantime, dear listener, perhaps this wasn't the way it ought to be, but it was the way it was. On the whole, you reflected, it could have been a lot worse. And of course, in the meantime, thank you for very listening. Thank you very much. Thank you for very listening to The Two Shall Make You Threat. Clown eggs, clown eggs, clown eggs.

Good night. I might try that again if that's OK. Yeah, sure. OK, I thought you pretty much nailed it, but you're a perfectionist.