The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 67: The Carpet People Pt 2 (Apocalypse Brackets Roundworld)

Episode Date: November 15, 2021

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, usually read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, our Proto-Pratchett season concludes with part 2 of our recap of “The Carpet People”. Empire? I Hardly Know Her!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Malaphors.comHow to Avoid Mixing Your Metaphors - Brian BilstonBattalia pie - WikipediaMiriam Margolyes Out To Lunch with Jay Rayner - Apple PodcastsOzymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley | Poetry FoundationTill Eulenspiegel - WikipediaThe Crystal Palace - WikipediaAt Home: A Short History of Private Life, by Bill Bryson - GoodreadsNice Try! - Vox Media: Podcast NetworkThe Unthinkable - Amanda Ripley Stories by /u/Admiral_Cloudberg - RedditPlace of Protection - TV TropesThe Cavalry - TV TropesSunanda Kumariratana - WikipediaMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I was also replaying Crash Bandicoot, but I am taking a moral stance against it. Because you lost. It's really fucking difficult, Francine. I sent you the thing on Maliforce the other day. Oh, yes, which I'd seen that thing and heard of the phrase before. I liked using Maliforce, but I thought that's another word. Like, it's like de-familiarization. I can never remember the word.

Yeah, there was a there was another word for de-familiarization. Oh, yeah. One of our listeners put on the reddit. I mean, just find that reddit. Okay, of course. Yeah, so a Maliforce, doesn't it, is an error in which two similar figures of speech emerge, producing an often nonsensical result. In the pub we used to drink in, we called those modgisms. Because the regular...

One of the regulars there always used them. Yeah, let's not describe modg to this. Actually, modg is what I can imagine Nobby Nobs possibly growing into. Yeah. Is the closest to a Nobby Nobs I've ever met? You know, I could see him needing to carry a card to prove he's human. Nobby's smarter, for sure. Yes.

My favourite modgism, I think, is he's a chip off the old chalkboard. But some of the Maliforce I've found that I particularly like, I've got... He has a B in his Belfry. Oh, I like that. The road to hell wasn't paved in a day. And my definite favourite will burn that bridge when we get to it. I've always enjoyed... That's a different kettle of ballgames.

Yes. Ryan Bilston, who I don't know if I've mentioned on the show before, he is a poet I very much enjoy. Recommendation of the week. Getting there early. He's got a poem called How to Avoid Mixing Your Metaphors, which is full of these kind of Maliforce slash Mick Metaphors. But the first stanza is, it's not rocket surgery.

First, get all your ducks on the same page. After all, you can't make an omelet without breaking stride. So I'll link to the full one of that. Marvelous. Did you find the Reddit comment? Yes. Sonda Vogel again, who just does the best shit for our podcast. Yeah, no, cheers, man.

Um. We have a word in the Cyrillic alphabet that is primarily read as Ostron Genji. Oh, fuck. We did this on the podcast. We've done this podcast. Jenny. Fuck. And also, Wertherm Dunn, if you want the German version of the concept instead of Russian.

Oh, I do, because I can say that. Yeah, I knew there'd be a German word. There's always a German word, isn't there? Well, Francine is looking at pronunciation. I want to mention a couple of our other favorite mod phrases that weren't Malaphors. Oh, yeah. There was another regular barman at the pub, Kev, who famously bald. And he said, Kev does well for his hair, doesn't he?

I got Kevin Mug with that one. Didn't you also get Jack has one? I don't know what it was you said to me, Jack, but I'll never forget it. Yeah, that's the one he uses for his paint water now. So it's always out on the table, which ostrich in it, ostrich, ostrich in it. Fuck. Do you know what? Do you know what?

Yeah, I give up. Wertherm Dunn, Wertherm Dunn, we'll use the Germanic. OK, yeah. Also, shout out, Sonderbegel, for mentioning Brecht in that sentence, because I would love to be one of those people who's really into Brecht. I'm aware he's amazing, but I had to study him during A level 30 studies and really hated the teacher and I've never quite gotten over it. Same reason I hate Kafka.

Oh, God, the fucking cockroach. I watched that. I watched that play by like several set of student. Yeah, I had to be that cockroach more than once at the fucking weird. Yeah. No, I've never in it, luckily, but I did have friends because I think it was in A level one. I didn't do it. It was an A level one.

And I did the first year of A level 30 studies and dropped it around the time I realised I was getting a qualification in being a fucking cockroach. For context listeners, I was taking A level 30 studies. Which does come in handy. I was taking A level 30 studies specifically because I wanted to join the Royal Shakespeare Company. Very few calls for cockroaches from the RSC. I'm not going to say none.

Wow, joining the Royal Shakespeare Company, that's quite an ambition. Yeah, that worked out. If it makes you feel better, I think you would have hated it. Oh, no, I definitely fucking would have done. You are just not wanky enough for that crew, I'm sorry. Not wanky enough, not trust fundy enough. And quite frankly, probably would never have quite gotten over the eating disorder. Oh, God, yeah.

Yeah, very glad we didn't go that way. Anyway. And you'd be permanently talking in pentameter. The other thing I wanted to mention that I've been sending you in group chat. I'm sorry, I always immediately send you things I like instead of telling you live on that. So I never stopped sending me things you like. I love it. It's like you're a toddler showing me the shiny rocks you've just found.

But it's 2 AM. But it's at 2 in the morning. And it's four fucking rabbits. Four fucking rabbits. I was reading very, very old recipes because Jack came across this thing called a battalier pie. Which was so named because it was filled with beetles. Speety beetles, small, blessed objects from the Latin betas,

which were things like coxcombs and lamstesticles. You know, there's no counting the taste. But because of a bit of focate emology where people mixed it up with the word like battlemen, people started building them with crenellations and towers. Wow. Yeah. And anyway, so I found one of the really old recipes for it. And it was printed with Fs instead of the long S as a lot of them were.

And as Pratch, it does a lot for comic effect in his oldy, worldy speech. And so for which is quite a funny thing on its own for sucking rabbits. I'm guessing it must have been suckling rabbits. Must be baby rabbits, right? But yeah, turned into a full fucking rabbits. And I don't know why that tickled me so much, but I was on the sofa crying. Well, Jack looked at me like this was not the intended effect, but I'm pretty pleased that the recipe is sent you this way for fucking rabbits.

For fucking rabbits. I did find out with an ease. I did find it as funny as you did. It's just that I then got distracted by the other ingredients. And could I have a go at making this at home, which I can't. No, no, we looked into this as well. I can't get hold of any of this. I fucking love vintage cookbooks and vintage recipes so much.

There are fish pie versions, and there are versions of that with like the kranolations and the towers and everything. So we can always try that one day. Yeah, I never had a fish pie with pastry. It's always potato with one. I had a really nice one from Iceland last night. I had really nice, like one of the luxury fish pies. I've got it for dad, but you didn't eat it.

Well, it was here. I was going to make fish pie this week, but because I've got a cold. I can't deal with that much dairy. So I've got the fish and the freezer I'm going to do it next week. It's going to be a treat. I fucking love fish pie. Do you buy like pre-mixed fish pie mix or do you? Yeah, because it works out a lot cheaper.

Waitries like quite often have it on their three for ten deal on meat. Oh, nice. It's a mix of diced salmon cod and smoked haddock, which is. Oh, that's decent. Yeah. What I would, if I would probably use like Pollock rather than cod if I was buying all the bits myself. But yeah, also it's already skinned. I fucking hate skinning fish.

I don't think I ever do. I don't. I think I always get chunks of fish or it's salmon in which case, like a salmon fillet. It's like, yeah, I cook it on the skin. That is crispy and yummy. Now, I used to have to. We used to get huge sides of hake and then I would have to skin them

and cut them into fillets and it's a smoked haddock. We'd get that with the skin on and I'd have to fucking skin them and cut them into fillets. So my job before that, we had an amazing fish monger and never had to fucking skin our own fish, which was handy. I did have to fucking prep muscles, though. I feel like Skinner Fish could go somewhere in this Malifor list, but I just can't think where it is.

Move on one way to Skinner Fish. Teacher Man to Skinner Fish, yeah. Teacher Man to Skinner Fish and he'll be on fire for the rest of his life. I've missed some stuff that I have. Better to Light a Fish than Curse the Darkness. Oh, with the Poisson. With the Poisson. Yes, punes.

Only a month late. I have got on the shelves the proper new book of Cookery, which is a reprint of very, very, very old recipes, but I can't quite reach it from here. OK, I think you're going to say, like, I've put it on a shelf out of my own reach, so I'm just going to have to wait till someone comes up. Someone will have to come and get it for me.

I live here on this safe for now. Oh, poor Joanna. Having a cold is no fun at all. Yes, apologies listening to this for a fact. Not looking forward to my first one in a couple of years. Yeah, apologies listeners for the fact I sound like I'm doing my sexy French voice. I think you sound fine, to be honest.

Maybe Zoom's fixing it for us. Yeah, I sound weird to me. I also apologize listeners for the fact that I won't be able to concentrate on anything for more than five seconds. Luckily, you're in safe hands with me, as proved by last episode, where I definitely did not go off track at every opportunity.

Yeah, I can't wrangle you this episode, Francie. You're on your own. I'll try. I'll try my best, I will. Stay on the road to where? It's much earlier today. It is much earlier today. On the road to where? To where?

To why? Why is the morrow? Sorry, I need to stop referencing Marvel when no one Zoom calls with you. Oh, yeah, right. Honestly, like the nonsense that it seems like they've put into Marvel is just the kind of nonsense we might be referencing anyway from like mythology.

Like, why is Gomorrah? I thought it might be like an obscure Catholic school reference. Yeah, no, it could easily have been. Yeah. Oh. It was in Catholic school when my boobs were named Sodom and Gomorrah before I renamed them Monty and Python.

Oh, that's a character arc for them. They've been through a lot these kids. Why do I just call my boobs kids? Right, okay, we need to... This is what happens. I'm not sure if I could have done anything about that, but I'll look out for it next time. Don't mention Catholics, just making an eight.

Not Catholics. Gold is God's way of telling us to ban more Catholics. Oh, that's one other, actually, my recommendation in the week. It was a few weeks ago now, but I think I mentioned before Jay Rayner's got a brilliant podcast called Up to Lunch where he takes a celebrity out to lunch

and interviews them. A few weeks ago, he had Miriam Margolies on and it was a fucking delight. It is just 40 minutes of Miriam Margolies swearing beautifully and farting. Oh. And the combination of her and from is because I put podcast on to fall asleep in that one.

It took like two minutes between her voice and Jay Rayner's voice. Yeah. I was lulled. Oh, lulled. Yeah, there is a problem with podcasts that are really like soothing hosts, which I think we can be accused of many things,

but that's not one of them. There is nothing soothing about me. Not soothing, not manageable, but surprisingly, fris-free. Cool pack. I did leave that in. Yes, I did, right? Yeah.

I'm forever worried that I'm just gonna like heavily reference something I completely cut out of the show. I feel like our listeners will accept it and understand. Yeah. Yeah. We keep dropping bits. You know, we don't do ads anymore either. God, we haven't done an ad for ages.

No, I was listening to some old clips earlier today. Well, now I want to make a terrible Discworld Christmas advert. All right, well, maybe we could work on that. Do a sad piano version of... I was trying to remember the name of literally any of the songs. No, I was trying to remember the name of literally any of the songs from soul music.

Well, I'm definitely the wrong person of asking your brain shut down. So should we go and get another coffee? Yeah, then do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to The True Shall Mickey Fract, a podcast in which we are usually reading and recapping every book from Terry Brackett's Discworld series

one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Fratine Carroll. And today is our concluding conclusion of our proto-Pratchett season as we finish our discussion of the carpet people. Yes. I think two sections was a good idea for this one.

Yeah, I don't think we could have done three. No, I think we'd have been pushing it. Good book, but, you know, short. Another patch full of references. Notes on spoilers before we crack on. We are a spoiler light podcast. Heavy spoilers for the book, The Carpet People. But we will avoid spoiling major future events

in the Discworld series. And we are saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. How did they even journey in this one? Pounds, stars. Oh, that's right. Sorry, yeah. On the back of a giant, unusually intelligent beast.

With very little wings. With very little wings. Little wings. Do you have anything to follow up on? That's what I was trying to think of when I didn't come up with something then. What was in that nice email from Alex? Alex told us many things.

Many things. They have revised their stock answer of my favorite Discworld because whatever one I'm currently reading to include whatever one Joanna and Francine are talking about, which I'm honored by. Alex has been listening while working on an amazing rinse-wind costume for Halloween that involves a knitted hat that says wizard.

Well, I hope we can get a picture of that. We have a picture. I will email Alex and ask if they mind just sharing before I tweet it. That's exciting. And they also sent us, Alex is Canadian from the Ontario Whatsit and has sent us a recipe. All Alex is a Canadian.

All Alex is Canadian. The second Canadian Alex I've interacted with and therefore all Alex is a Canadian. We'll ignore that one, not Canadian Alex we've met. I don't remember that one. Yeah, no, that one doesn't exist. But so Alex has sent us a recipe for non-mobiles, which I'm excited to try because I'm my...

What's that? So we used to make them where it worked because I had a Canadian hajaf and it was like a kind of biscuity chocolatey base and then like a coconut custard buttercream and then chocolate on top. Alex's recipe is a bit different, so I'm quite excited to try it

because it looks a lot easier. Nice, that does sound good. Speaking of things from above, Joanna, we don't usually do helicoptery watch at this point, do we? No, we don't. We do just previously on. Speaking of things we've seen before, Joanna. Hang on, I've lost the episode plan again.

Oh, fuck. Francine, would you like to tell us what happened previously on the carpet people? Thank you, Joanna. Previously in the carpet people. By the way, I haven't decided on yet whether I should be saying previously in or previously on.

Obviously previously on is what you hear, isn't it? Because it's summarizing the last episode. So saying previously in sounds odd, but it's not technically is previously in, yeah. Previously in on the carpet people. Perfect. Thank you. A tiny village lies in ruins

as Frey tears through the carpet. The former residents gather their goods, get their loins and get going. Unfortunately, they soon learn that their first choice destination has also been destroyed. The road goes ever, ever on and the mongerangs are mauled by mules,

bolstered by bane, wisdom that by whites, terrified by a termigant, and eventually drafted by a deposed deaf mean to take back his city in a gritty end of chapter finale. Because it's built on grit, you know? Yeah. Sorry. They succeed, but their happiness is fleeting

as Frey knocks over this city as well. Post-credits, our patchwork pod of protagonists split up when mules descend upon and make off with a good chunk of the cast. Snip-rills surveys, the devastation of Frey and glurks-glurks in the shadows as Brock, Pismia and Freyne, the bane, are marched off to the Highgate land.

That was excellent. Thank you. It was ambitious. I'll say that. Also, it's spotted the Tolkien reference there. I like that. Road does go ever on and on. I was trying to remember if there's like a tune to that.

I feel like Gandalf is singing it in one of the movies. Bilbo is singing it. Road goes ever on and on. That's all I can really remember and I can't sing right now because my voice is fucked. Bilbo sings it to himself as he sets off after his party. Yes, well done. I have my uses.

I want to see mountains again. But now, we've got like the rest of them. Yeah, also I live in the Flatlands. You were saying the other day that you miss the hills. I do miss the hills. Which hills do you miss, I meant to ask. I want to go up to Yorkshire again. But I just miss driving anywhere, Hilly,

and as you get there, you start seeing massive rolling hills. See, I fucking hate being in a car driven around hills because I get very travel-thick, but I don't mind you driving. I might mind driving you some. Driving you some hills. Thank you. Oh, God.

This is fancy. I did get to, my sister and I went down to Goodwood, Chichester type area back in the summer and we got to see hills and that was really lovely, but we didn't really get to go out proper walking or anything. We were doing other things. Right, shall I tell us what happened this time? If you feel up to it, please do.

I mean, I don't want to, but I'm going to try. Like literally, if it starts hurting your voice, let me know and I can read it for you. I have access to your notes. That's okay. I think I can do this. Chapter 12, our imprisoned Bane, Pismire and Bracando are taken by the moles to the Highgate land of the Voughtgorns.

The Voughtgorns? The Voughtgorns, God, I love saying that, and speculate about Glurk on their trail into the land past the caged snags and poems the prisoners are thrown into the dungeon until a Voughtgorn guard claims them for the mines, takes out his colleagues and reveals himself to be none other than Glurk to the rescue.

We learn that the moles are after stone and metal for weapons and they're taking wear. Glurk befriends... Where? Sorry. Glurk befriends the pones and uses them for escape and the chapter ends as Glurk admits he learned the future from a white.

In chapter 13, Glurk explains how he went ahead of the prisoners and met Kulaina. The gang come to a land of multicolored creatures and meet Kulaina, a white who sees every future. She sends them to wear with instructions to win a battle and her dreams echo before the gang sets off. In chapter 14, Snibril, after searching the rubble of Jeopard, takes his tribe and the deft means onwards

to wear with a few staying behind to reclaim the ruined city. Chapter 15, two days later, the whites fight moles as a hidden Kulaina watches. She sees the one outcome where they win come to pass as the tribes of Munrung and deft means show up just in time. Athen, their leader, is upset by this change to the thread and Snibril brings the confused whites along

as they wail about not knowing what happens next. In chapter 16, Snibril and his followers find a dead city on the road to wear and closer to the capital, they find a lost, doomy legion. The 15th legion was called back to wear but took a hit from the fray and ensuing moles. Snibril befriends Sergeant Karius, the man in charge sends the injured back to Jeopard

and offers to help the rest back to the city. In chapter 17, the Ragtag army makes camp. The fray strikes Nibai followed by the moles but this time the armies are ready. After winning the fight, they make it to the gate to wear. In chapter 18, the armies camp outside the quiet city. In chapter 18, the armies camp outside the quiet city and Snibril heads in with Karius to find out what's what.

At the city barracks, they learn that the emperors signed a peace treaty with the moles and the other legions haven't returned. Outside the city, Snibril's armies find a gang of pones. Meanwhile, in the city, Pizmyr and his friends make it to the apothecary to meet old friend Owlglass and learn if the emperor's new maul advises, Bane and Glurk want to fight to reclaim the city.

In chapter 19, Snibril and Karius visit the palace kitchens and some old friends and the Snibril catches sight of a mysterious woman in white. He cooks up a plan to sneak into the emperor. God, I've missed about the emperor so many times in this. Oh, I cannot fucking spell that the first time ever. It's the O and the E, I mixed them up. Meanwhile, Pizmyr et cetera disguise themselves

as weights to get into the city proper. Snibril sneaks up to the emperor and with the sergeant's help, we learn that moles can't call the fray to stop a fight. Moles run into the underlay and as Bane and the rest make it up to the city, a war council starts and Bane has a plan.

Chapter 20, a victory happens. With Mealy and Glurk handling weapons, Bracando leading the women and Bane's supervision, a strike of the fray leads to a final confrontation with the moles. Just as all seems lost and the moles have the upper hand, the real whites join in the fight and the moles get defeated.

With the whiny emperor mysteriously missing, Bane is elected president. He imprisons Jormelish, head of the moles. The whites choose themselves a new thread and finally, a curious Snibril takes Roland to see the world. Cool. I worry I didn't really need to mention Snibril

taking Roland with him, but I just like the idea of them on a magic carpet with Snibril singing, I can show you the world. Yeah, no, no, I think it's good. He takes his horse. He was the first new friend he met in the book. New friend he met in the book. Yeah. Yeah.

Right, sorry, I'm just gonna meet myself and have a coughing fit. Okay, have fun. I'm functioning. Good, good. How much lense have we had? The right amount, I hate. I just took some more pills.

Don't extend the overdose on paracetamol. No, I am timing it carefully. I'm always late me when I have anything with paracetamol. That's why I'm not having the drinkable lenseps. Ah, yeah. So, helicopter and nightcloth watch. Pones, helicopters for the purpose of this episode. That seems fair, yeah.

And as always, very much implied loincloths. Where? Everywhere, Francine. Well, the whites are kind of swathed in fabric, which includes the loins. Okay, if we're gonna... We might be going a step too far. Loins are included in cloth?

Loins are included in cloth, but if we go down this route, we're just gonna go all clothes of loincloth. I mean, in a way. No, otherwise, I will insist on getting rid of this bit if you just say clothes every time. Fuck's sake, fine. All right, loincloths heavily implied,

if not outright pointed out. Okay, that's fair. Should we do quotes? Yeah. Mine is from the dream echoes from Cullena. In his dream, he moved through the night hairs like a spirit until he came to the endless flatness. The carpet ended suddenly,

and from its shores, the flatness ran on forever. He looked for hairs and there were none, just flatness without end, and balls of dust that were bowled over and over in the forlorn wind. I don't know, I read that, and then I just stared at the edge of where my rug meets the wood floor

for like a good minute. Nice. What was yours? Mine is when they've come across that ruined or lost city. Did you know this place? Said Sniperil. No one did. Even Athan had never heard of it.

Places can get lost, he said. People leave, hairs grow up, roads are overgrown. By the look of those statues, they thought the place would last forever, said Sniperil. It didn't, said Athan, flatly. Very Ozymandias vibes. Ooh, yes, very much so. Which episode was it that we did, Ozymandias?

I cannot remember now. It might have been one of the first two books. Yeah, I've definitely read it aloud on the podcast at least once. Yeah, that doesn't necessarily mean it was connected to the books. Yeah, no. Makes me more likely, yeah.

I will take literally any excuse to read Ozymandias out loud in full. It is one of my preference. We've got at least one more book where we'll probably make you do that, so. Yeah. I'll just do it like once a month. It's like an exercise, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, just monthly Ozymandias. Like, characters. That sounds like a euphemism for a period. I've got my Ozymandias. I'm sorry, I'm naked. I can't come out. I've got my Ozymandias. I need a hot water bottle.

Oh, dear. Vort Gorns. I'm now just, sorry, I'm now just imagining my uterus shouting, look at my works, you mighty despair. Oh, no. Vort Gorns. Vort Gorns.

That could be another sound testing word. I was going to say it's going to become like the new podcast safe word every time we need to change a topic. Didn't have a safe word. Maybe. Well, it's Vort Gorns now. Yeah.

Yes. We go to Highgate Land and we meet the Vort Gorns. We don't really spend much time with them or meet any. We don't have any Vort Gorns. No, I was expecting to learn more about them, really. But they're very somber and mystical and like the doomy, but without their well-known flair and excitement.

So we know they're incredibly boring and organized. Yeah. And apparently super gullible. Well, everyone gets taken in though, don't they? I mean, okay, the emperor is a whiny little shit and Bracando's brother seems a bit not bright. Yeah, that's true. That's fair though.

There's three rulers get taken in. We have the Pones. I thought I'd throw those in character. Lovely Pones. They're from the utter east where the very fringes of the carpet touch the floor. Cool. They're the most things in the carpet.

Yeah. And they are winged much like a bumblebee. They are not aerodynamically suited to their wings, but aren't aware and fly anyway. Yes. Yeah. I don't think they're meant to be based on any real-life creature, are they?

No. Fat barrel bodies with ridiculous small wings and long, thin necks tipped with heads that wobbled slowly round as they passed. At the other end, they had a stubby little tail. So, yes, I enjoyed the Pones. They seem very sweet and they're very clever. And I like that their motivation

is following whatever's interesting. Yes, they remind me of elephants. Yes. Elephants that want to be amused. Yeah, I sympathize with just stamping on people if I'm boring. Yeah, I'm very relatable and really something to aspire to. Yeah, I agree.

I'm going to start stamping on people if I'm boring. Kulayna. Yes. She is this mysterious white. She is our first speaking named female character. Yay. So, we've got one.

Tick-to-box. Yeah. I am being overly sarcastic. Yes, got that. I like this description of her. She was young, but as she moved, sometimes she was old and sometimes she was middle-aged. Time moved across her face like shadows.

She can see all of the futures. Well, she can remember all of the futures, not just the one that's going to happen. Yeah. Which means her a special kind of white called a Thunorg. She gets to kind of control things as well, doesn't she? It's a thing like she seems to be able to focus on a certain thing.

That's quite... That's quite a handy knack. And then we have Athan, Athan, that guy who's sort of in charge of a certain gang of whites, fully expected to die as they were fighting the malls and was not expecting the outcome where they were saved and is sort of horribly upset by it

because he just does not know what it's like to not know what's going to happen. Yeah, you can... It must be... It's like losing a sense, isn't it? Yeah. It's amazing they then managed to retain a bit of competence. I think they're used to being so confident

that you kind of can't not still have the competence that comes with confidence even when you've lost the confidence. Yeah. You got it. Yeah, cool. That sentence very nearly got away from me. And then we have Sergeant Karius of the 15th Legion,

which is fun because we get to see the weird Pratchety way of writing sergeants, which is that he's got two kinds of sergeants. He's got the Sergeant Colon. And I think he's the only one of him. But then, especially when he writes military sergeants, he writes them as the truly competent ones. Yes.

I wonder if you knew any. There's a really good line a few pages later, really good line, but there's a moment later where he says most armies are in fact run by their sergeants. The officers are just there to give things a bit of tone and prevent warfare, becoming a mere lower class brawl. And this is a bit proto-pratchet to a book we haven't got to yet,

but I can see in Sergeant Karius, and especially his mates in the kitchen, a lot of a character will meet later called Sergeant Jackram. Yeah, for sure. For those of our listeners reading for the first time, keep an eye out for Jackram. He's a good one. He's a good one.

And there's another nice line about things much later on. This whole thing of where they've managed to give all of the sergeants jobs in the kitchens and made sure they set up with very cushy jobs when they've lost various limbs. Have you got any weapons? Smasher's aboard in half with a meat cleaver. What, us? No.

I like later on when they're storming in on the emperor and when someone comes in dressed as a cook and the emperor goes, he's not a cook, he's all there. Which does work for normal cooks as well, not just retired military. They are very rarely all there. Physically, mentally, spiritually.

Oh, God, I've never met a spiritually all-wear cook. No, God, that would be frightening. That would be terrifying. Owl glass. I like owl glass. Oh, did you look up his name? No, I didn't. Is there a thing?

Yeah, you'll like this too. It's an owl glass. It's an anglicisation of the legendary German jester Till Eulenspiegel, who's like a folklorish, trickster character in low German peasant folk tales. Nice, I like that. He's a philosopher. He's got a touch of the Athelians about him.

Yeah, definitely. He's very into explaining, is it homophones? Do words sound the same mean different things? Yes, and also just anything that might have a dual meaning. My house is your house, but only in a metaphorical sense, you understand, because I would not,

because I always admired your straightforward approach and indeed your forthright stance actually give you my house, it being the only house I have. It's a philosopher, is he? Yeah, you can tell, can you? I like him, he's sweet. And then we have, of course, the emperor.

Yeah, whiny little fuck. Well, it's because he got it through hereditary. Yeah. And if you get things through hereditary and you don't turn them. Yeah, you turn out to be a bit of a twit. You become a whiny little fuck. Unless you're a deft mean, apparently.

With a sulky whine in it that suggested that its owner had been given too many sweets when he was young and not enough shoutings at. There's something about the hyphenation of shoutings at. Yes, agreed. It was the kind of voice that's used to having its life with the crusts cut off. The kind of whiny emperor trope,

we've seen before in practice, obviously. But it is always fun. It is fun, I like it. And then we get more of the backstory of both Bane and Pismar. Yes, yes, we do. Bane's backstory isn't as dark as it's hinted at, I think. Yeah, it's hinted to be very dark and dramatic.

But what happened was he killed an assassin that was aiming for the young emperor during his coronation. But got in trouble for getting his sword out near the emperor. Not a dick joke. But yes, no, that's fair. The only reason you didn't make it first is because you've got a cold. Yeah, all right, fine.

You know, I'm just trying to help you out a bit here. Not with any of the useful things, just with the dick jokes. Yeah, no, thank you for supporting me in my time of need. But Bane did hate Targon, the whiny boy emperor. Yeah. Because they shouldn't be hereditary but elected, which is what had happened until the previous emperor decided that his son would inherit.

And then we get Pismar's backstory. He was a troublesome, a troublesome academic. He was studying what we would call sociology, I think, while his friend Al Glasse was doing biology, zoology, that kind of thing. Yeah. And so he insulted the emperor. An ignorant ciberite who didn't have the sense of a meat pie. Nice, I like that.

Because the emperor wouldn't give Pismar the money to support the library. Yeah, I did look up ciberite and it means something like overindulged, greedy. Oh, here it is. An inhabitant of Ciberus, which was an ancient Greek city in South Italy known for its wealth and luxury and destroyed, and apparently so well known, it was known in the carpet. Well, maybe they had their own ciberus. They had like a little mini ciberus, a ciberette, if you will.

A ciberette out by the carpet edge. And then Pismar got sentenced to death for apologizing because he said he was sorry, but on reflection, the emperor had got the sense of a meat pie. I'm aware it's not the point of the passage, but it did make me really fancy a pie. It's been a pie-heavy week, hasn't it? And yet we've not eaten any pie. I am lacking. Maybe I should make a pie.

I could make a mushroom-lail pie. I'm not very good at making pastry, but I can buy pre-rolled. You can buy pre-rolled. I can make mushroom-crossed pastry. It's lazy. Butter, water, and flour. Yeah, but you know, there's lots of incredibly difficult to make things that are only this, this, and this, but no, you're right.

I've made sure. Two-parts flour to one-part butter, enough water to bring it together and rest it before you roll it out. Locations. Locations. We go to the Highgate land. We went to the penny on the carpet. Mysteriously engraved underneath with Elizabeth II.

What could that mean? And what is it, on the top, Britannica or something? It's one penny. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. On the penny or something. Yes. And the Highgate, I assume, is the pork hullis that was on the old pennies.

Yes, I assume. Like that old pennies, was it really? When did this book says over? Never used change anymore, so I couldn't say. I don't look at change, certainly. Yeah. And then you've already talked about the Dead City. I enjoyed that, but I also liked the road to wear, because I was talking about

all roads leading everywhere last week. Oh, yeah. White made of split hairs, laid head to edge, and every few hundred yards, there was a hair carved with a finger. All the fingers pointed to wear. Another Roman parallel. Yes, very Roman. Straight roads, that's what laid it.

The Romans ever do for us. Carved little fingers into trees. Aqueducts. And then, of course, we have Wear Itself, which was built between and around five giant hairs. Really, three cities ringed inside each other. It's a very impressive city. It was a city for looking at, not living in. I like the three-layered approach, though.

Yes, the outside was for looking at, not living in. And then there's the people lived there. And then there's old wear in the middle. Which will eventually go when they need room for more statues. Off to one side of the bustling city was a tiny walled enclosure outside of a village. Village. A village. A village.

This was the first where the little village where the doomy had begun. Yeah, and it said they didn't know what was in it yet, did we? No. Have we found out? I think it is just sort of the old religion. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that's all the places we really go to.

Yeah. We popped in on Kalena's, like, little bit, but that wasn't really a location. That was just a massive sugar crystal. We just posed as a location as they go in a carpet. I nearly did start looking at the orate because it was described as like a palace of crystal. I started looking up the origins of Crystal Palace and then realised that no one's got time for that. Was that not the huge greenhouse of the huge glass building in London? It was built for one of those international science shows, wasn't it?

It was... There you go, you knew already. Yeah. That's in Bill Bryson's home book, I think. I might be Crystal Palace. Named after the Crystal Palace exhibition building, which stood in the area from 1854 until it was destroyed by fire in 1936. If you've not read Bill Bryson's at home, hugely recommend.

Would go nicely alongside the current series of that thing we're listening to, you know, the podcast we like, what's it called? Nice try. Nice try. Thank you. Awesome. Little bits that we liked. Oh yes, we like some little bits.

We do like some little bits. I like the melodrama of the malls. Ah yes, I nearly had just that one, that first line as my quote. And Pismire taking the piss. Yes, that one. Melodrama. Look, you're last at your precious carpet, you will not see it again. It's a benefit to having a sore throat,

as I can do the dramatic mall voice really well. Oh yes, can you do the laugh? Ha, ha, ha. Very good. Why do they always talk like that, said Pismire? Melodrama. My Macy doesn't go ha, ha, ha. I'm calling them lowly scum, imagination of a loaf of bread.

Absolutely. I think I reckon that's one of the bits that older Pratchett picked out to comment on himself. Yes, he wrote them as, I'm assuming he wrote them as ridiculously melodramatic in the original, and then decided to make fun of himself a bit. Yes, I like that, I enjoyed. I like the thing Pratchett does, where he can sort of make fun of these stock characters and make fun of himself at the same time.

It makes sense to make the evil malls as melodramatically evil as possible, but it also makes sense to laugh at them for it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I reckon if he was writing it now, I think he'd give them a little more nuance than the orc replicas, but as they are as they are, it's nice that you got to have a little bit of laugh at his own expense. Well, it's quite fun. I'm rereading the Aragon books right now because I was got a bit nostalgic.

I was talking about them with a friend and thought, oh, they're kind of fun. They're quite easy to read, but you can also tell, especially with the first two, they are written by a 15-year-old who's read a lot of the rings a bunch of times. I forgot they were written by a kid. Yeah, and they're amazingly good, especially for someone who wrote them. They're good friends books like Full Stop, but they're really, really super tropey. Yeah, it's going to be even worse now when you read that, isn't it? Because we spend all of our time looking at tropes.

What I do respect that he did is when he got to, I think the third or fourth book, he took the characters that were basically the orcs of this and was like, okay, but actually here's some nice ones and also here's their whole family structure outside of them being orcs. So, you know, there's some nuance. There's not a lot of there's some nuance. For sure. And then, oh yeah, the camo creatures.

Yeah, slightly nicer end of the nature of the carpet. This is at Kulaina's huge uncut crystal of sugar, but it's this idea that all the wild creatures in the carpet take on the color of the hairs they're born around and obviously the colors of the hairs change because it's a carpet. And in this one place, all these creatures from across the carpet have turned up, so you get this sort of rainbow of creatures. All the colors from the carpet in one place. Yeah, it's nice.

Nice idea. I enjoy it. Yeah, wouldn't be as dramatic on Earth would it? Because you do get obviously like foresty colored and snow colored and deserty colored creatures, but it's all in the neutrals palette. Yeah, right. Throw some tigers in for a bit of orange. Yeah, that's true.

That's true. Fighting together, Francine. Yeah, the deft memes and the doomy who are in our little rag-ter group at one point with Sniproyl end up fighting alongside when Mools attack. When Mools attack, that sounds like an excellent bad documentary. It does. Or a sci-fi B movie from the 1950s. Yes, yeah, they're just aligned.

It's hard to feel so bad about someone when last night he was stopping other people hitting you with axes and things. Which does seem to be the case, doesn't it? I think so. Yeah. I like the the women moment from Bracando, unexpected feminist hero of the piece. Yeah, unexpected dickhead Bane. But I like that, you know, Bracando seems the one who's much more caught up in old tradition

and Bane is the kind of newer one and that Bane believes in democracy and things. And then you get that role reversal of Bracando being like, just give the woman pointy sticks. They'll be great. They'll have a laugh. Yeah, it's nice as kind of a, unless it's built into your society, why wouldn't you give the women sticks too? Yeah, Bracando is explaining, you know, Bane says women don't know how to fight and Bracando

says deaf mean women do. Oh, yes, who with deaf mean men? There's something about how much his tribe really does enjoy a bit of a fight that means that the women are at home with a weapon. Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, we get the payoff later on in the battle when Bracando sort of saves the day by turning up with the women. And you've got grannies with a spear ready to go.

Yeah. It's very practical having the improvised weapons as well, I think. And the men have those as well, don't they? Sticks with knives tied to the end. Well, now you've got a spear. Yeah, as long as you tie it on well. I've never really been able to get the hang of tying things on to sticks, but I'm sure. I've taken up knitting, which is an entirely a practice of tying things on to sticks.

Yes, but then they come off the stick. Eventually, it came off the stick wrong earlier. It was an emotional moment. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, and people not reacting properly, Francine. This is one fray is hitting where it's a funny thing. When there's a warning signal, when people have known forever that there's a warning signal and that warning signal is sounded for the very first time, people don't react properly.

They wonder out, literally saying things like, someone's mucking about with a warning signal, aren't they? And who's blowing the warning signal? That's for warnings, that is. I nearly put this in as well. And then I realized I had too many, so I'm really glad you put this in. Yeah, I had to. My kind of ever turning wheel of hobbies has landed back on reading about disasters and

surviving disasters. Which is why you don't sleep. Yeah, well, that's one of the reasons, yeah. Well, it's something I do when I'm not sleeping and I'm sure it doesn't help. As usual, I'll recommend The Unthinkable by Amanda Ripley and Admiral Cloudberg's little, what, massive back catalog of very interesting well written articles about plane crashes. For those who aren't going to give themselves nightmares.

But anyway, this reminded me of it because it's Amanda Ripley's book, especially, because it's apparently one of the core responses of humans being disastered at. And kind of milling around, collecting belongings, gathering activity, I think it's cool. But basically, remaining in denial, like way longer than you'd think. And the only way around it is kind of repeated specific drills. So the correct response becomes reflex rather than.

Yeah. I just reminded me so much of school fire drills where the response was always... Well, who pulled that? Not leaving my fucking bag behind. Well, we really got guns down on the field. It's cold. Okay, talking points. Talking points.

Let's get a bit proto-prachety, shall we? Let's. Now, I was going to try and understand some stuff about quantum before we started, but my brain hasn't worked all week and I'm scared of quantum physics. It's just this idea of like, I've joked about not like in quantum physics, but seriously, I even get like headaches, trying to watch time travel things where they have to go back and make the thing happen properly or future's gone horribly weird. Despite that, I still love Dr. Who and Bill and Tess Most Excellent Adventure because

baby Keanu Reeves Most Excellent. So I haven't seen the new one actually. I need to watch that. Oh, I'd forgotten about that, yeah. But I like this idea where Glerk needs to go and tell Kulayna everything that's happened because she told him what happened before and this becoming such a big priority. And this comes to the Salthoen Augs thing and Pismar is kind of horrified by it because the whites don't exactly talk about it nicely.

Yeah. And this attachment to the rules of the whites not telling others what's going to happen and Kulayna explaining that they are just rules and they don't have to apply. That's all a bit Dr. Who, isn't it? They're more likely to find rules that we will ignore for the sake of plot. There's an element of like Deus Ex Machina to it with Kulayna especially. But I love the way she describes remembering everything that could happen. For everything that happens, a million things don't happen.

I remember you winning, I remember you losing, I remember the Maul's triumphant, I remember you triumphant and both are real for me because for me both of these have happened. So she remembers all the threads that have never been woven and having this whole metaphor of the thread running through it is really beautiful writing. Yeah. Death has some lines like that, doesn't it? What is going on about remembering everything that will happen? Yeah, that's sort of this whole thing in, is it in soul music where he's trying to

forget and he joins the clatch in for an agent, yeah. It's interesting. It is and it's such a bratchety thing to think about all of this potentiality in the universe. It's that same, it's chaos. What Kulayna understands more than anything is the chaos that could potentially exist while the rest of the whites follow that single thread. Yeah, and another one of these is the Long Earth. Yes.

Each step being a universe that is slightly different. Another potentiality. I can't wait to talk about the Long Earth books with you. That's going to be so fun. I fucking love these books. Everyone seems to, well not everyone, but there's a big chunk of Pratchett readers who don't seem to like the Long Earth. They don't read like Pratchett books in the same way because they're co-written.

Yeah, but even so, it surprises me that just these good books aren't liked by... Yeah. I guess if you go in expecting them to read like Pratchett wrote them on his own. Yeah, but yeah, the Proto Pratchettness obviously comes down to this million to one chance thing, which is something we've been paying attention to. And this is, she's thinking about all these futures that come in little bundles and she sees this future all by itself. It had no right to exist.

It was the million to one chance that the defenders would win. Yes. And she's in the final confrontation with the malls. And that brings me to my last week, which is this idea of whites not being able to cope with change and then they sort of slowly understand it. This idea of you don't have to accept the thread, you can change what's going to happen and it's just never occurred to them because they remembered the future. Yeah, which makes sense, doesn't it?

Like if you remember it happening, then... Of course you can't change it. It's the same as us trying to change the past. And then totally separate note, but the other song... You've got to be behind in your past. Sorry. When he was a young woodhawk. Right, Pumba, not in front of the kids.

Listeners, I really need you to understand how many times we don't quote the Lion King when we could. Almost every other time. Yeah. But just please know it's there like all of the time. Oh, it's bad. The soundtrack of the Lion King has like all the background music stuff on it as well. And I was listening to it a few months ago and I realised if you put the music on for me, I can almost just talk it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not just the song, oh God, I did watch that a lot. Like during the formative years where everything sinks in and they probably should have been teaching me French instead. God, I wish I'd learned French instead of the entire script of the Lion King. I said I'd try and help keep you on track. So the doomy effect around it. The doomy effect. This is the other kind of...

Which I'm not even laughing at. That's how serious I'm being right now. I am so impressed. You're trying really hard not to laugh though, aren't you? Oh, yes. Please continue that quickly. All right. Yeah, doomy effect.

This is another like proto-prachety thing. Sorry, the fifth coffee is finally kind of kicking in. Good. Thank you. Which is this idea of the doomy's empire spreading and having this effect of calming things down with order and its very Ankh-Morpork. Even their fight with Jeopard is the one rebel state. It's kind of a part of the order.

It's a nice way to keep the empire running and make sure everyone's got someone to practice on. Yeah, it's kind of like an Inka-style empire. Is it Inka I mean? I think I mean Inka. They weren't nearly as kind of violent as a lot of empires and they basically stayed in charge for quite a while just by making life better for the people they dropped in on and so on. This was the...

I briefly mentioned it earlier, but this whole economic imperialism thing. Because once you get it going, it all works, so there's no reason to stop it. Yeah, it's really hard to cycle backwards from convenience once it's been introduced, which is what we're all learning with the whole environmental crisis. Yeah, but then to go with comparing it to Discworld rather than getting depressed about the state of the actual world we live in because there's only so many hours in the day, Francine. Yeah, that's true, that's true.

I've already set aside later for getting depressed about the upcoming apocalypse bracket round world. So how about the Discworld? I think I've scheduled that in around the time I try and decide what I want to have for dinner. Yeah, that'll help you make good decisions, I think. I will probably be Chinese food. Oh yeah, I fancy Chinese. Let's both get Chinese then we'll...

Let's get Chinese. Ooh, salt and pepper chips. Sorry, right. Fuck me. No, do me. Do me. Do me. Sorry, do me. Thank you, Francine.

The economic imperialism has a nice parallel in Discworld and more pork with the guild system. And it's this idea of taking something that just works more efficiently than the chaos that was existed previously, getting it up and running, and then people keep sticking to it. They keep sticking to, all right, I will be legitimately robbed by professional thieves or legitimately assassinated by professional assassins. And it keeps going and people don't fight against it because it works. And then there's so many Discworld books about people trying to destroy the system and it wins out because it works.

The difference being that we don't really have... I don't like it, but like that, yeah. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying it's a parallel. No, yeah, no, you're making a good point. It's just I don't like it. The difference being obviously that we don't really have a similar veterinary figure here. We have the emperor who created this economic imperialism and did the thing, but it's not really...

This, this is what I was on about the other week. This is what happened when your benevolent dictator dies. Yeah, it starts off as a series of decent elected emperors who make this empire... Well, okay, decent. Skilled and probably... Simping for imperialism again, Joanna. Okay, I'm not saying imperialism is good. I know, I know, I know.

Yes, competent emperors, yeah. Competent emperors who make this thing works and the system only starts to fail when it becomes hereditary and instead the emperor becomes a spoiled brat. Yeah, and it does sound like in fairness. Until quite recently, the kind of imperialism they engaged with was a largely voluntary one. Yes, it was somewhat peaceful. Apart from, you know, they did keep trying to subjugate Jeopard, but that just seemed like fun for everyone around.

Yeah, I feel like that might have been this dude's dad though, right? The, yeah, the dickhead emperor, yeah. And also there's a bit of like a completionist vibe, like, you know, you're missing like the one part of the set. It's like, yeah, yeah. Like maybe if I just had Jeopard, it would be like a really nice square. Now, because I'm missing that, I'm missing a corner piece and it looks funny on the map. There's been lots of crushed populations because of that.

Anyway, I'm going to, if I try and keep talking about this, I am going to fade off into total nonsense. So Francine, do you want to let me have a coughing fit and then talk about tropes? Sure thing, Joanna. So Francine, do you want to talk about tropes? Sure. I think that's the most fun thing for me to look into for this book, because it's just so fucking Tolkien the whole way through. And obviously Tolkien spawned so many tropes that when I say I'm looking into tropes,

I mean, largely I'm looking into Tolkien parallels. So the first one I'd say is Colena's spot fits very nicely into the kind of place of protection trope, the sanctuary. It's a little magical spot in the middle of your danger, where our ragtag band of heroes can stop and rest awhile. TV tropes points out the girdle of Melian in the Silmarillion. I must admit, I did not get through the Silmarillion, so I'll have to take the word for it.

But then also in Lord of the Rings, Rivendell and Lothalorian, because each is secretly protected by one of the three rings. And then Colena definitely has like an air of the Galadriel about her, doesn't she? Oh, she's definitely got a hint of the Galadriel to her. Especially the Galadriel. There's a cream for that. Especially the kind of ageless, but also all ages at once thing. I remember a description like that about Galadriel somewhere in the books.

Yes, and I don't know if it was like the uncut Lord of the Rings version, but wasn't there like a scene where she becomes terrible for a second? It's in the main one as well. It's when Frodo offers her the ring, and she's like, Oh, and instead of the Dark Lord, you'll have a queen, Dark Queen, more beautiful and terrible than them all. Sorry. Yeah.

And that's why I can't have the ring in brief. And that's why I fancy Cape Lancet. Yeah. Sorry. No, you're fine. Anyway, also in Tolkien, and this one wasn't listed in the TV Tribes article, but I would argue that Beyond's House and the Hobbit counts as well. Plus, it's extra comparable because he has lots of bees and Kalena has her hyometers.

There's something about these sanctuary places where you often get like the animals lying down with each other that would fight normally, and it's very... Makes sense because it's like the narrative version of an oasis, isn't it? It's the plot oasis. It's also very biblical in imagery. There's lots of stuff about paradise. I know it's a big thing with Jehovah's Witnesses, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb.

And it's this idea of in these paradise places, the predators and prey are comfortable together. True. And that's, yeah, because in oasis and that, you do get predators and prey even drinking together, don't you? Not lying down together, generally. But yeah. Yes, I'd not made the biblical parallel.

I like that too. So, yeah, nobody's talking about water in these books. What are they drinking? That's a good point. I just suddenly got really worried about their hydration. There's definitely some quaffing. There's mead or something at a party, which they've got honeys and things from things like the hyometers.

But yeah, there's no rivers or lakes because there's no way for that to be in a garbage. If they're in a pub, as we've all you've speculated, and I've come around to the idea of. It must be the odd spill drink. Yeah. But in that case, if everyone's just really drunk all the time, that does explain a lot. Yeah.

The water sources are all vaguely alcoholic. Well, especially as we're talking about this, as if time is very compressed, then a drop becomes a lake for a year. Yes, yeah. So yeah, I guess they're mostly drinking spilled beer. Cool. I like it.

But yes, we don't see any bodies of water. Fuck, I've got off track again. And back on track. Here we go. Yeah. So then the next trope I rather enjoyed is the cavalry trope, as the whites join the battle. You know, it happens twice, doesn't it?

Because you've got the deft bean-led army of women. Yes, and the whites joining the battle. And then the whites, yes. Which immediately, even without... Elves riding up at Helm's Deep. Oh, no. Oh, okay, sorry, that's what I got. But yes, actually, now you say it.

But that wasn't in the book, that was in the movie, so that can't have been where it came from. Well, Gandalf on the Warriors of Rohan would be the battle of Hohenberg and the Berg. But I think that was similar imagery, wasn't it? Like the blinding. The blinding light. Yeah. But then, for me, it made me think of,

because everything there was the Hobbit again. So it's the battle of the five armies and Bilbo's. The eagles, the eagles are coming. Oh, yes. Yeah. So the whites of the eagles fight me. Which makes sense as well, because they're like the detached wise species, who's then like, oh, do you know what we're sick of this shit?

Just kind of come in and stomp on y'all. There's definitely a hint of the elves to the whites, but I like this eagle comparison more. So yeah, let's go with it. The con fly. The seagull, did you just say? Eagles. Oh, right.

Yes, the whites are seagulls. Yeah. The whites, by the way, interesting name for the species in this, isn't it? Because whites generally are undead-y, evil-y. Yeah. If you think like barrow whites, and I feel like it was just, here's a random fantasy word.

Yeah. But also there's something, whites not necessarily undead-y, but possibly spirits, and there's something somewhat ethereal and detached from humanity. So it does kind of make sense. That's true. Yeah, yeah. Would you consider the whole whites coming in as a little bit deus ex machina?

I already said Kalena's got the kind of deus ex machina vibe, but yeah, that is also very much so. Because they come in, and not only do they come in, but they're really amazing fighters. They're really amazing fighters because they can see where the arrow's going to go. Yeah, but they can't, can they? Because I feel like they can see immediate flashes of future based on their own decisions,

but the point is that they have learned to make decisions and accept change and to choose things for themselves. But then after the battle, they get back onto their thread, because otherwise that would be a ridiculous species to have wandering around your fictional universe. But I wouldn't say that them turning up to the battle as deus ex machina, because the whole point is it's something they've chosen that they haven't seen. It's a whole subversion of who they are that allows them to turn up.

If they turned up because they'd seen themselves winning, that would be deus ex machina. You see what I mean? No. They're not turning up and winning the battle for everyone because of their powers as whites, but despite them. Right, but they do come in that would like this superhuman fighting ability. Okay, yeah, there's a hint of it,

but I think the fact that it's a subversion of who they are that allows them to do it means it's not entirely. Okay, yeah, I'll accept that. So a hint of it, but better. Yeah. So then just listing off a couple more, rattling them off, got the kind of evil advisors, kind of trope, got like worm tongue, but it's in lots of things,

they're kind of almost bureaucratically evil insider enemies. And it's nice to have an evil advisor, tropey type thing that doesn't have with racial connections, because we've talked about the issues with like the Grand Vizier trope and thing, which is linked to the evil advisor trope. Yeah, I think this one specifically is the evil advisor sent in by an outside party. Yeah. So as worm tongue would have been, and in this case, it is the outside party,

but yeah, but yeah, you're right, it's a bit more interesting. And then you've got the kind of Council of War, which was briefly mentioned, I think that's just because, you know, that was a nice thing. You've got the lazy empire with the whiny emperor. Yeah. And then one, I'm not that fond of, but I see why I left it in, because it's just passing as the accidentally talking aloud thing.

So Snivril does this a couple of times, like I didn't note them all down, but because it doesn't matter what he is, it matters what we are. It was me, thought Snivril, I didn't realize I said aloud. Oh, well, that's, I hate that, I hate that in writing. There was a horrible noise, and then the person realized it was them, except it kind of makes sense in like really horror situations, because it's like dissociation and stuff. But I didn't realize I said it aloud, but that's just me being picky,

because I noticed it in some bad writing once or twice, and now I always pick it out. And then this isn't really a trope, but I couldn't fit it anywhere else. I was wondering if, when they were talking about kind of moving from the kind of hegemonic empire, they've got to a kind of federation-y thing alliance. I was wondering if that was a little hint of the EU around the edges? There's definitely some... Because that was around the kind of time, well, the first one when they were talking

about second one when they were newly-ish in. There's some definite actual historical parallels we can look at there, and there's probably quite a lot other than the EU. Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah. But yes, I can see what you mean, there's definitely a hint of that there. Yeah, yeah. And that is all the bullet points that I bothered to transfer to the notes. Excellent.

Well, with that, I don't think there's much else we can say. Francine, do you have an obscure reference finial for me? I do. Going back to the near the beginning of this episode, Bane is banished for killing an assassin because it meant drawing a sword in the emperor's presence. I feel like this turns up, or something similar turns up in quite a few myths and folk tales, but the kind of real-life example of widely reported to be Sudanda Kumari Ratana, who was queen consort of Siam 1800s, and her infant daughter sadly drowned from the royal

boat capsized. And the very widespread myth, very widespread, is that commoners couldn't touch the queen on pain of death, which is why they both drowned. But apparently, and I am going from Wiki here because I wasn't going to buy a book called The Palace Loris Siam just for this bit. The king's diary records that boatmen dived into the water, pulled the queen and her daughter from the entangling curtains, carried them to another boat where attendants worked in vain to ressuscitate them. They were pulled down just not in time because they were in a fucking ridiculous boat. Yeah. But yeah, I looked specifically for this because I thought it was a real-world example, but apparently not.

I remember a few myths and folk tales of things like the commoners can't touch them and therefore can't save them. Yeah. Yeah. It's been used as a sort of example of this kind of hubrisy. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm so above you, so you can't touch me. Help me, help me. And they're like, nah, malicious compliance. That's a good obscure reference, Finneal. I like that. I think that's pretty much everything we can say about the carpet people. I've enjoyed this. I think that's basically all you can say before my voice fucks off completely. You lose your voice entirely. Yeah.

But yes, I've enjoyed this. This has been fun to talk about. It's been fun to look at the early, early, early Pratchett. Early, early Pratchett. Yeah, for sure. I like the carpet people, as I said at the beginning. I've read this a lot of times. And unlike most of the books, I must say, I'm not sure I found that many more layers to it upon the reread this time. I think more so than most Pratchett is just a good story. It's a nice book. It's a very fun, good story. Yeah. It's not like onion layers of satire to uncover here, but it was still

a nice book to look at. Yes, that was fun. So this is coming out as close to the 50th anniversary as we can. Yeah. We are probably going to be off for a couple of weeks unless we think of something fun we can record and give to you because we want to make a start on thinking about Christmas. Yeah. That's going to be a lot of December content. So there is. So we'll be back on 6th of December where we are going to start talking about the Hogfather. All of Joanna's ridiculous scheduling has been leading up to this moment.

I'm so proud. I'm so proud. Obviously, patrons, keep an eye out. There'll be a rabbit hole in your ears in the meantime. Possibly also got some other fun bonus. What's it? Maybe even involving chocolate sauce in another podcast. Oh, kinky. I mean, that sounds so much dirtier than it needed to sound. Oh, yeah. Sorry. I was staring at the calendar. Play us out, darling. Sorry, I'm still doing the outro, aren't I?

Yeah. Until we're back, dear listeners, you can find us on Instagram at the True Show Mickey Fract on Twitter at Mickey FractPod. On Facebook at the True Show Mickey Fract, you can join our subreddit community, r slash ttsmyf. You can email us your thoughts, queries, castles, albatrosses, snacks and snags, the True Show Mickey FractPod at gmail.com. And if you want to support us, you can go to patreon.com for us to True Show Mickey Fract and exchange your hard earned pennies for a bit of bonus nonsense. Quite a lot of bonus nonsense now. It's still piling up.

It is piling up. You can access previous bonus nonsense, I expect. You can access all previous bonus nonsense and you'll get the monthly treat of me reading out Ozzy Mandias. Not actually going to start doing that. It's not true. It's not true. And in the meantime, dear listener, with rising hope and streaming hair, he urged the white tools into a gallop and they disappeared among the crowding hairs. Oh, why are you growling at your feet, baby? Oh, why are you growling at your feet?

Did she just remember she had feet and got upset?