The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 71: Jingo Pt. 1 (Squid Skedaddle)

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 1 of our recap of “Jingo”. Clams! Squid! Nationalism! (Thumbs Down) Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Jingo - Colin SmytheJingo - The Annotated Pratchett FileHouzee - WordsenseThe Cod Wars - The National ArchivesJohn F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories - WikiWeathervane - WikiRespect quote - flyingpurplepeopleeaterNew volcanic islands: where science and politics meet - British LibraryOmnibus Episode 251: Ferdinandea (Entry 461.RV1620)Fanny Adams - Wiki [CW: it’s pretty graphic and upsetting – I covered the book-relevant info in the episode, so you’re not missing context if you don’t fancy reading about it - F]Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Oh, did you check your settings on Zen? Sorry. I just pressed record, so it's too late. Hi. How are you? I'm good. I've had a week. I've had a week. It's been very busy. Oh, you've had your first week back at work, haven't you? Yes. It's not been a very relaxing one, obviously. And then I had Becky come stay for a couple nights on short notice, which was delightful, but did throw off my plans for EG reading this book. That's why I said, let's not still try and do it last night, because between

having time to read and having Becky and an extra dog in the house, I assumed it would be chaos. Yeah. And I stayed up till three again last night. I don't know what's wrong with me. Even when I was working from home all the time, I never ended up on a 3-11 schedule, but one day out of work and I'm back on it. I can't be nocturnal. That doesn't work with any of the things I do. I've got to shift this back somehow. Yeah. I can't really offer any help because the reasons you don't fall asleep until three in the morning are not the same reasons I would not fall asleep until three in the morning.

Oh, well, I'll work it out. How are you? I'm okay. I'm good. I haven't, well, I say gone back to work. My work is freelance anyway. So I gave myself the first week of January off as well, because I pretty much always have that off. Yeah. So I'm very relaxed. I've spent most of the last week playing Mass Effect 3. Noise. And I'm going to make a nice carry tonight. It's so cold in my flat right now. Yeah. We could see our breath while we were eating breakfast kind of cold.

Dude, put the heating on. I'm going to in a bit, but I'm trying not to have it on too much because I'm about to give up my freelance work. So I literally will not have income for 12 months. I'm going to try and be quite careful with my money. Yeah. On the other hand, pneumonia. I'm not going to get pneumonia. Well, you said that when you stood in the rain at download for two hours and then what did you get? A, it was five hours.

B, it was torrential rain and I was wearing fuck all because I was a teenager at a festival. And C, I never said I'm not going to get pneumonia. What I said was fuck, I want a cigarette and my rislers are soaked. Okay. But I think my point stands. I didn't actually, I don't think I actually had pneumonia. No, no, you had a very bad chest infection though. You sounded like you were on the verge of it. I was coughing so hard I pulled a muscle in my back and I was still doing my telesales job.

Rock and roll. Look, it was worth it. I touched Billy Idol on the hand. I did not sexually assault Billy Idol. Good. Yes. No, I'm glad you had a, I'm glad you had a good time there. I also want to clarify for listeners that we are talking about events that took place some time ago. Decade ago. Yes. Fuck me, I'm old. That was the year I turned 18.

That was how I spent my 18th birthday. You weren't there that year. Yeah, no, I wasn't. I was elsewhere. There was, we've been reminiscing a lot recently. Are we getting old? Well, it was, we were talking about this on New Years, like how long we've been friends and spending New Years together, which is quite scary. I think the first one we spent together was 09 to 10. I think, yeah, 09 to 10 would have been the one at the Masons where we had to be helped into dresses.

Yeah. I'm going to argue for a reasonably short, soft open for this one, because we've got a buck load to get through. We do. There's a lot of character. However, there is one relevant thing for the listeners, which is that I saw Neil Gaiman tweet today that Good Omen Series 2 isn't coming out till 2023. So we won't be covering that this year, which means we will end up talking about Science of Discworld later in the year. Oh, I do like that. Okay. Unless listeners have any other desperate requests for non-discworld books,

they really want us to do a month on. Yeah. Send us requests. The more desperate, the better. Yeah. We've got Bramelea and Jenny Maxwell lined up for this year. We're not going to cover Nation or Dodger this year, because they're definitely going to go into next year's. Yeah. Good. Nation, especially what with it being such a light-hearted romp. Yeah. I need to run up to Nation.

It is one of my favorite books in the entire world, but I need to run up before we discuss it. I've only read it once, and it's one of my favorite books in the entire world. Yeah, it sticks, doesn't it? It's not one I get the urge to pick up and reread, because good lord. What a book. Yes. Yes, it is a book. Neil Gaiman's been very active on social media recently. I didn't realize, obviously, because I wasn't on Tumblr until quite recently, how on Tumblr he is. I suppose that scans. I mean, I imagine also he's probably having to do lots of travel

slash sitting around waiting if they're working on Good Omen Series 2 right now. Yeah, sitting around between takes, I'm sure is a big thing. Like, we know so much about how the world of television works. You know a bit. I know some. I just feel like that's something I've heard people complain about, lots of sitting around between takes. I, because we talked about it back in our Christmas episode,

it turns out all of my family is on BBC iPlayer, so I've been watching it. And I forgot how distinctly average it is, but also such a weird snapshot of a really specific time, because it's like early 2000s. Yeah, I feel like the late... Sorry, yeah, Becky and I were watching men behaving badly for last, so that's a slightly earlier one, but yeah, it's... Late 90s, early 2000s. It's, I think the, where I found it really jarring, like it's just a distinctly average bland sitcom that's perfectly family friendly, but there was an episode,

so bear in mind this is a professional couple with three children living in a four bedroom house in London, not central London, but London, like a bit suburbie, a dentist and a tour guide. So those are the sole sources of income. Affording a four bedroom house in the outskirts of London, in a probably quite nice area, it's really upper middle class, and the father getting angry at the youngest son, because the youngest son wants to be a Tory, and the father is very, very staunchly, we are a labour household. That combination of income and politics, I don't think would happen now.

Oh, I don't know about that. There's still lots of the liberal elite, isn't there? Yeah, true. It's just something... It's just so blatantly pre-recession, it's really weird to watch. Yeah, yeah, nice. Plus early 2000s, early 2000s, British outfits, which are... They're a rule unto their own. Lots of colour. I think they were fantastic, speaking of somebody who looked even worse than the average. Yeah, we won't discuss how I dressed in the 2000s. Actually, it was a lot like this.

Yeah, no, you've gone back to the blacks for the season. For winter, for winter. That's because all of my jumpers are black, and pretty much all I'm wearing for winter is jumpers until spring, where I will wear a cardigan and then complain that I'm still fucking cold. All right, Milo. Sounds like I'm about to hang up on you, I'm not. Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to the Tree Shall Make You Threat, a podcast in which we are reading and

recapping every book from Tory Pratchett's Discworld series one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagen. And I'm Francine Carroll. This is part one of our discussion of Jingo, the 21st Discworld novel. Discworld is now old enough to drink in America. Congratulations, Discworld. We're very happy for you. Are we marking age in books rather than years? Okay, good. I think so. I don't know how many years it would have been by this point. 21.

Yep. Preparing for the spoiler warning. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Note on spoilers before we get started. We are a spoiler light podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book Jingo, but we will avoid spoiling major future events in the Discworld series. And we are saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown. Fuck, I fucked that up.

Until we get there, so you dear listener can come on the journey with us. In a rowing boat in a dark sea in the silence of, oh my God, what's that? As opposed to the curious squid who'd sort of do more of a, hmm, oh my God, what's that? Yes. My first note for this book is just curiouser and curiouser. Perfect. My first note is just why is all marine life got funny names? Why is squid such a funny word? Squid is a funny word, isn't it?

There's another funny marine life one that will come up in my quote. But before we get to my quote, follow up. Do we have anything to follow up on, Francine? Yes, we have an email from a Peter, Peter B, who has two things to say. First of all, is a pre-follow up. Advance up. Advance up. Lead up, lead up, a lead up.

Yes, that's the word. Regarding Jingo, the use of the word despondently, which is on page 19 of our copy, 14 of theirs, is lovely character building for vines. And just to read the line, it's the land that came back up from under the sea last week, said Vines despondently. It must be hard to be a man of reason living on the disc, says Peter.

There should be cause and effect. Things should be knowable. And then mythical islands rise from the sea without even apologizing. Which, yes, I think captures vines' mood rather well. That is pretty perfect. Now, follow up. We go back to Hogfather. Do you want to tell us about the attachment?

This was from Peter's email as well, wasn't it? Yeah, so you may remember that in Hogfather, we were speculating about the noise the pile of teeth would make. Hmm. Peter handily not only has a small pile of teeth. Don't ask why. Don't ask why. But recorded the sound of the teeth being poured into a ceramic bowl.

A poured from one to the other? Yes. It's all that nice little skittering noises we were unhappily speculating about. We've now heard the skittering noises. We know what the sound of teeth being poured into a ceramic bowl sounds like. And I'll warn you now, listeners. I'm going to edit this into the episode. So here's your warning.

If you don't want to hear the sound, skip forward 20 seconds from now. Teeth sounds. Okay, we're back. Apologies. But also, curiosity sated, I suppose. Thank you, Pete. Yes. I think I'm impressed and appalled.

I love that our listeners are willing to record the sound of teeth for us. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's commitment and I do appreciate it. It's just when you told me what we had, I wasn't thrilled. But no, it's not as bad as it could have been. I think that's a decent amount of teeth. At least it wasn't a huge pile. And I should probably clarify that they do belong to Pete's son.

Diligently collected in order to prevent them falling into the hands of malevolent occult forces. And Pete said it is going well thus far. Excellent. No occult forces here. Glad to hear it. Thank you, Pete. Anyway, if there was any more follow-up, I've completely forgotten about it in the wake of that. Shall we talk about the book?

Yeah, I think so. Francine, would you like to introduce us to the book, Gingo? I would, yeah. So Gingo, as you say, 21st, as you quite so correctly did already point out. It was published 6th of November 1997 to, by this point, the usual critical acclaim. Some of the reviews are really good for this one. And so I'll link to Colm Smy's webpage as usual because they're all pretty long. And I know we have a long episode to get through.

I won't read them out. And also because I have things to say about the title. So the title, to quote annotated practice file, by Gingo is an archaic jocular oath of obscure origin used in Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries. The word with derived forms such as Gingoism and Gingoistic became associated with aggressive militaristic nationalism as a result of a popular song dating from the Turco-Russian War of 1877 to 78, which began, we don't want to have to fight, but by Gingo, if we do, we've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too.

Which I like to think has also inspired the fact that Amor Pork does not really have the men ships or money. Yeah, I think that Nari pretty much quoted that in the, yes, we've not got money too, something like that. What's interesting, well, I was looking at Colm Smy's page. He always lists the foreign translation, foreign translated titles. And I was scrolling and noticed a particularly interesting set, because obviously this one is so rooted in British slang.

Yeah, and to be fair, it's also, it's not a really, really popular phrase in British slang these days. Like, I think I didn't know the term Gingoism when I read this for the first time. I think I probably did, but I think that's because my dad is who he is. And I was probably already reading Privateer. Actually, maybe not the first time, because I think I did read this one pretty young. However, there are a bunch of them, and obviously I didn't look through them all, but I might look into some more for next week, but just I looked into the Dutch one.

In Dutch, it's Housie, maybe, a word that's basically Hazar, but that does have like negative nationalistic connotations, because it was used by Fash's political party in the 30s and 40s. So yeah, that caught my eye. I was like, ooh, and there's a bunch of them, so I might look into them all for next week. And listeners, if you happen to know any, obviously I will link the page, then please do write in with your, you know, better than Wikipedia and Google Translate Skills. Yeah, I thought that was cool.

Anyway, um, it's the blurb. Discworld goes to war with armies of sardines, warriors, fishermen, squared, and at least one very camp follower. As two armies march, Commander Vimes of Ankh-Morpork City watch faces unpleasant foes who are out to get him, and that's just the people on his side. The enemy might be even worse. Dun-da-da. Dun-da-da.

What a treat. It's a good one. It is, I feel like we can say at the top that there's probably going to be a bit of blanket problematic sticker, but not to the level of interesting times. No, I was pleased to read through and think, as I went, this is better. Having read all the... There is still stuff to criticise, and in fact, if we don't go into it in depth, I think what we'll do is probably link to a couple of essays that do,

because a lot of this is rooted in kind of cultural knowledge that we don't have. Yes, very much so. I think any big criticism stuff I'm going to save till we get to the third episode on it, so please don't think we're ignoring anything. Yeah, but it's just better than doing bits and pieces, isn't it? Yeah. Anyway, should I tell us what happened in this section? Yeah, I do.

I shall. So, in section one, which goes up to page 132 in the Korgi paperback, with the Cratchin Embassy is really on fire. Ah. Dun-da-da. Dun-da-da. You are good at finding the points to end at. I thought that was a nice suspenseful bit to end on.

Yeah. So, solid Jackson and Sun fish for curious squid in distant and empty waters, and they argue with a Cratchin boat until an iron chicken rises. Something geological takes place as an island appears from the depths, and a brief kidnapping takes place as Jackson and Cratchin counterpart both stake a claim. In the great city of Angkor-Pork, unrest is in the air as people shout in Sata Square, an ownership of the newly risen island of Leshp gets hotly debated, war with clutches in the wind.

A pigeon summons Sam Vimes to the side of Vettanari, and a meeting with the city's civic leaders. Angkor-Pork may have sold its weapons and trained competing Clatchian assassins, but Ancien records say the island is theirs. Vettanari announces that the Clatchian prince Kufura is visiting, and diplomacy is necessary. Vimes will be leading the procession at the wizards convivium. After the meeting, Vimes confronts Vettanari about local leaders' plans to summon upstanding armies.

Meanwhile, Carrot plays football with local hooligans before writing their letter home as he waits out a hostage situation. Colon and Nobby watch him dispelling at the docks and discuss politics. That evening, the newly expanded City Watch gather, and Vimes explains that their duty is to keep the peace. Salt rain pours on the city as Ossie Brunt, the archer sits alone, Angkor patrols with Nobby, who's newly concerned about his sexual nature, Vimes and Carrot discuss plans before being rudely interrupted by a firebomb,

thrown through the window of the Gorif's Clatchian takeaway. Rain falls on Leshpin, the fisherman Hyde, unsure about exploring. Back in Ankh, Wilikins wakes Vimes, unfortunately unconscious at the office. Vimes' butler announces his leaving for the heavy infantry and dresses Vimes ready for the procession. At the convivium, as Vimes hopes for criminal interruption, he meets Prince Kufura and his pal, the clove-chewing 71-hour armoured. And he passes their diplomatic tests.

Armoured gets one last tease in before the parade begins. The leading Vimes gets caught up in preceding Watch Style, but for a shot from the Barbican sends Vimes on a chase to find a clove in the pavement. Officially, Vimes tells Veterinary and the civic leaders, Kola and Nobbs are on the case, with Ossie, the three theoretical assassin, found dead at the bottom of the tower. Simple men seek simple truth, as Veterinary discusses Leshp with Leonard, who apparently visited just a few years ago.

Evidence of Ossie as assassin doesn't add up, and while Kola and Nobbs find clatchy and coinants and sand on the floor of Ossie's old room, Vimes sends Carrot and Angua to find the complicated truth, unofficially. A brief romantic dinner between Vimes and Sybil is interrupted, as Little Bossam arrives with news of a potential riot. Janelle, the gore of sun, took a shot at an unlikely baker, and the city's ready to riot over the clatchy and kid, once they've finished passing around the riot act.

Carrot and Angua follow the arrow trajectory to the library and catch the trail of snowy slopes, not stylish enough to be an assassin, but nonetheless willing to kill for money. Snowy, unfortunately, has met his untimely end and cured his dandruff issues permanently. Things calm down, and Vimes almost has the goriffs to safety at the watch station,

before Little Bossam interrupts once again to inform him of a fire at the clatchy and embassy. There. Unfortunately, again, lots happens, because there's quite a lot of set up. It's good set up, though. It's not tedious. No, it's... It's well-paced and funny.

It's well-paced. It's a nicely-paced book. Helicopter and line cloth watch. Go on. No turtle opening. No. No library and explanation. No library and explanation. One other thing I've noticed that I might start keeping an eye out for, because it's a running joke that I enjoy are the callbacks to Mr. Hong.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a good one, yeah. Who opened the Three Jolly Luck Takeaway Fish Bar on the site of the Old Fish God Temple in Dagon Street on the night of the full moon. The moon. Everyone knows. Amateur. Amateur.

I think he was last mentioned in soul music. Yeah. So, yes, callback to Mr. Hong. And for helicopters, we, of course, have Leonard of Querm as been designing flying machines. Yes. I think whenever we have one of Leonard's machines, we can count that as a real one.

Not just a barely justified attempt at keeping this bit in. So, celebratory trumpets for Leonard. Yeah. I didn't really get anywhere with the loincloths. No, let's just skim over that. Yeah. For this book, if we get loincloths, they might be racist, so maybe let's skim over them.

I feel like practically it's new enough to know that you don't wear loincloth in the desert. Well, no, it's impractical. So, quotes. Mine comes first, pretty early on. I picked one about veterinary because I assume our character talking about him is going to be mainly next week, so I just thought I'd bring him in briefly.

Veterinary looked attentive because he'd always found that listening keenly to people tended to put them off. And at meetings like this, when he was advised by the leaders of the city, he listened with great care because what people said was what they wanted him to hear. He paid a lot of attention to the spaces outside the world, so that's where the things were that they hoped he didn't know and didn't want him to find out.

And then I thought that quite nicely contrasted with later on, at the end of the short romantic dinner. Oh, yeah. Sibyl says, you're always running around during the day, and when I wake up in the middle of the night, there's always a cold space beside me. Dot, dot, dot. The dots hung in the air.

The ghosts of words unsaid. Little things thought vimes. That's how a war starts. So, yes, words unsaid that she wanted him to hear. Yes. Oh, I love Sibyl. Yeah. Anyway, I'm sure I've mentioned this before in the context of

some of the what interrogation techniques. Maybe it was vimes. But how aggressive listening does the job often, better than asking lots of questions. Yeah. So, journalistic leaving the silence until somebody fills it. Which I am too awkward to do, and I am the perfect target for aggressive listening,

because I will nervously babble. Yeah, but luckily we've got like infinite tangents to go on. Yeah. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be babbling on the topic they want to hear about. There's a tumblr face somewhere about how someone would be really rubbish under interrogation, like not because they'd given to torture, but just like they can't remember shit. Yeah. Who's in charge?

Well, it's kind of like I didn't hear his name when he first said it, and then I got to that point where it's like too awkward to ask, could be Dave, he looks like a Dave. Yeah. I'd log into my email, but I don't actually know my work password, and this is my personal phone. Yeah. So, I can tell you the key code if it's like in front of me.

I don't actually know the numbers. I just know like where they are. Very much that. So, what was your quote? I went with a silly one because I feel like we're going to get serious later on. The convivium was Unseen University's big day. Originally it had just been the degree ceremony, but over the years it had developed into a kind of celebration

of the amicable relationship between the university and the city. In particular, celebrating the fact that people were hardly ever turned to clams anymore. I did enjoy that. Clam is such a funny word. It is, and earlier on in the book someone mentioned the clam before the storm. Yep, that was in Carrot's letter. It is the clam before the storm and no mistake.

I don't know why and no mistake, so funny as well. And no mistake after the clam before the storm. Something I haven't really put in any of my talking points or anything, but this book is really funny. It is. Yeah, no, it is. Well, it's one of the things that it's hard to talk about in a talking point without just going,

God, it's funny. I know all of this world is really funny, but I think what works so well in this one is, I think I said in Feet of Clay was a really good book of two-handers. Loads of really good dialogue scenes. This has taken that and then added, there's so much more to motivate it. Those two-handers then managed to push the plot really well

as being really snappy, funny scenes. Yes, and a lot of the comedic work is done in the narration as well, isn't it? I mean, it usually is, but it's very cleverly slotted in amongst the dialogue and everything. Yeah. The other thing I meant to point out in the intro and totally forgot before we go into characters is that this is the first watchbook

where the plot doesn't revolve around finding the King of Ankh-Morpork. Oh, yeah. I think I've definitely mentioned in the other ones, like Guards, Guardsmen, Arms, Feet of Clay, there is a secret plot to somehow get rid of veterinary and replace him with a ruler. So it's quite nice to see the watch branching out. What a treat.

Well, it didn't, it took four books. So characters, there's a lot of them. There are. There's a lot of characters. We've not even got them all here. No, well, I don't have tons to say in all the ones we do have, but yeah. So we have to start with our starting characters. Solid Jackson.

Great name. And Arif, his clutching counterpart. Yeah. Solid Jackson is such a great name. Solid. Yes. I don't know if it's meant to be a nickname or if he just is. I think it's another one of these discworld names where they take attributes

and have them, you know, like Chastity, whatever, but they pick these cool ones and I love it because it makes for the best ones, doesn't it? There's a couple more in here I forgot to make a note of, but yeah. I really hope Solid has two brothers called Liquid and Gaseous. Gaseous Jackson. Gaseous Jackson. Very nice, very nice.

Of the Unproblematic Jacksons. Only vaguely problematic, yeah. And their sons. And their sons who seem to be a bit more sensible than their fathers. I think it's just, it's a nice playoff to have like someone kind of on the ground in Leshp and see like the minuscule version of the war taking place as the bigger war is diplomatically happening or not happening throughout the book. Yeah, absolutely.

The attempted kidnappings. I thought it was quite funny that little. Oh, a kidnapper as well, eh? I like to think the boys would be friends. I think they would be. The annotated pressure for this book is actually really good. There's a lot of stuff I don't think I'd have picked up on and one of them is that this whole thing of it's not about who finds it first is about who gets home first.

Is apparently from this 1960 movie called Mouse on the Moon, where I think it's like in America and Russia both trying to get onto the moon and then they get there and it's like it doesn't matter that we were here, we've got to get home and tell them we were here. Oh yeah, no, for sure. I wouldn't have picked that up. I don't know that book at all. No, movie.

Oh, movie. Sorry. Sorry. I don't know that movie at all, obviously. Very clearly. Also, I like the fact that they're arguing over who the squid belong to because, well, I say like, but obviously this book is very much about nationalism and with the Brexit nationalism that the UK has so much of it is just about fishing rights.

It's fucking bizarre. We've gone to war with Iceland before, we had the cod war, didn't we? Yeah. Wars over fish have happened. Fucking forever. Many a war, especially fish. Anyway, so we're on a watch book. Let's talk watch.

The watch has expanded. Vimes hasn't had, didn't notice quite how many more people were being hired in. Yeah, it's the overall dynamic here is really interesting, isn't it, the Vimes and Carrot thing? Yeah, Vimes has sort of gone a bit too high up to notice small details and Carrot has very calmly taken over the small details and Vimes just signed to the paperwork. Vimes, through this first third of the book, is just starting to notice and resent it. And I think it's hinting at him being worried about being usurped, basically. Not quite usurped, but gently pushed into.

He doesn't want to become irrelevant because this is sort of all he knows. He had to face in Feast of Clay, like waking up as a gentleman and being retired from the watch. Yes, yeah, yeah. And it's not really for him. And in Metta Arms, he was going to get married and become a man of leisure and then didn't. Yes, that's another repeating theme, I suppose, isn't it? Yeah, and he's not about to leave the watch now, but he is worried that he will, having had to face being a man of leisure a couple of times,

he's now worried about how to keep himself relevant. And how much he wants to because he's clearly, you know, he's frustrated watching the situation. He thinks the idea of war is silly. One thing I thought I picked up on, he seems like more sensitive about the family history. Yes, he's owning it, his names. He's owning it. And he brings it up sort of almost quite aggressively when they're talking about, you know, the reason Hank Moore pork doesn't have standing armies is because they stand around,

get bored and then lead a revolt against the rule of a tyrannical monocle and effort to bring some sort of freedom and justice to the place. Of course, of course. I feel like part of that putting that in there and adding that sensitivity is to pay off something that happens later in the book. Yes. It is a bit of set up and pay off. Yeah.

It was at least kind of set up with the, the heraldry stuff that he started taking bit of pride in it because he wasn't allowed to. Yeah. I think it added an extra chip to his already rather chip played in shoulder. Somebody needs to take a sander to that shoulder. There's a bastard cod on there somewhere. I know that's not what kind of chips chip on your shoulder means, but every time I hear it, like, look, I live above a chippy.

I have never not fancying fish and chips. Oh, fuck. I might get that tonight. That's a great idea. I'm really tempted to do that instead of making a curry. Anyway. Anyway. I like his still very, very strong feelings about who can call him Mr.

Yeah. Did he have a go at the people in the meeting? He wasn't happy with Lord Rust. Right. He knew he was a Mr. would always be a Mr. was probably a blueprint for Mr. Ship, but he'd be damned if he wouldn't be Sir Samuel to someone who pronounced years as

years. Yes. I would pay good money to just watch Lord Rust chatting to Mrs. Whitlow. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. Yes.

But the other the other thing I noticed with Vimes is there's quite an interesting character shift compared to earlier Vimes books. How much he's grown as a character in his method of looking at this diplomatically. He's very happy to have colon and knobs go and find the very simple answer so that there is a diplomatic reason that they can point to and say obviously people want to believe this and of course this is what's happened while then going and sending Karen Angwer out to find the real truth. But I say does need to find out what they want him to think in order to work out the

rest. So it's like he's willing to let the civic leaders think of that as the simple truth that's being found. Vimes a couple of books ago would not have done that. Oh no, no, he would have yelled about how that was this is stupid. Obviously they want us to think that in front of the civic leaders and then they would have doubled down on yeah. So it's an interesting bit of character development there is that he's kind of

learned to play the politics of it even if he does hate it. Yeah. Vimes staying so one of the way Vimes keeps himself really relevant possibly in fear of becoming irrelevant is he's the one who's got that relationship with veterinary that Carrot can't quite have. Yeah, yeah Carrot would be too straightforward. I like the bit where veterinary is like you know he flinches whenever you tell a direct lie and vimes like fuck.

I need you to not have him in the room it's painful to watch. Who else then? Well he got detritus, detritus is back. Yeah being his usual hilarious police brutality self but. I think he's less police brutality now. He did threaten to shoot someone in the head as a warning shot. Yeah but he only ever threatens he never actually shoots people in the head. True.

Which again I feel is character growth. Yeah okay all right we'll call it that that's fair. I just want to support him I like him. Yeah. I also like him trying to find the ways in which people would call him stupid. I know everyone says them two short planks they're as thick as detritus. Yes that chocolate tea kettle it's as useful as me. I like putting it that way around too well done detritus.

That's a nice move and Carrot, Carrot's hanging around being as normal not as wholesome as he appears self. Before we go into some of his more not dodgy stuff but you know what I mean. They're organising the young hooligans into the football thing and the wib-wib-wib-dob-dob-dob which is a wob-wob-wob which is a reference to the Cub Scouts Boy Scouts one of the. Yeah I think that might be an American thing. No it's English.

The wib-wib-wib thing. Dib-dib-dib. I think it's English. All right we didn't in Brownies or Scouts. I kept the annotated Pratchett up because there's so much of this kind of stuff. Traditional but now discontinued Cub Scouts exchange apparently. Oh well that explains why if it's now discontinued I don't know. Yes okay.

Artful Nudger of course and Artful Dodger reference as well I enjoyed that. But yeah hand in hand with Carrot we've also got Reg. Good old Reg we've got him back. Reg is a watchman now. Yay. Which I like that Vimes is confused by this when he had the big rant at the end of Feet of Clay of yes we're hiring a Gollum get some zombies too. Yes.

And Carrot's obviously taken him literally. Yeah and I think Red Cheese is a good person to have on hand I think that was good. I'm a big fan of Reg. I'm a big fan of Reg joining the watch. But yeah problematic stuff I feel like we should point out Carrot and Reg just getting the thieves to confess to everything while they're under werewolf duress. Yeah I did.

I looked at a couple of discussions about this on the forums the old forums. Yeah there's a comment from Terry Pratchett explaining it. I think basically. Or trying to justify it. Yeah I mean he doesn't need to justify it does he? No I mean I know I'm very anti the police brutality stuff as well but I feel like at a point it's clear. It is that they're just being pricks for the sake of being pricks to the guys.

Yeah like they're not going to throw them in jail for all these things. This is kind of a repetition of something in one of the other books but when Carrot's describing Shu being criticised by the undead saying he's very heard about it sir. He says he's found that the undead just don't understand the difficulties he's policing in a multi-vital society sir. Good gods thought vimes. That's just what I would have done but I'd have done it because I'm not a nice person. Carrot is a nice person he's practically got medals for it.

Surely he wouldn't have and he knew that he would never know. Somewhere behind Carrot's innocent stare with a steel door. I probably didn't read as much to that quote as I should have done. Point is they got red shoe on side because he was being a fucking annoyance on the other side. And now all of the annoyances are directed at him. Yeah I enjoy that weird sort of quiet cleverness that Carrot has of being just as nasty as vimes but also somehow very well meaning and thinking everyone's just a good chap. But also maybe he's not as nasty as vimes and maybe he's not.

That's the thing we'll never know. Maybe he's just that innocent. I mean I believe personally that he is. Maybe it's a subconscious part of himself. Maybe there's like a second third thought thing going on there. Yes and then Colin and Nobby teamed up. Sorry Cecil, thank you. Cecil?

Cecil, Cecil and Frederick. Cecil De Nobs. The Pryd Evank Moorpork bit made me laugh so much. They're just sitting there watching someone paint it who's missed the e-off and they're waiting to watch him run. Because that's exactly the kind of dickish thing you and I would do. Like we would probably just enjoy watching someone mildly fuck up something like that. I would take issue with that actually, thank you.

Because I have a compulsive need to help people with typos. But anything else, yes. I'd definitely get the sentiment if it was something like missing an arm off an octopus or something, let's say. But just the sitting there and taking satisfaction. And a little satisfaction at the end. And then we're going, yep, that's right. That's what we wanted.

Not like gloating or anything. Also, the discussion of flogging the yogging. And the joke about how Nobby's uncle got press ganged and got tied to a plow. Reverse press ganged. Fantastic theory. Reverse press ganged. But then I'm going to talk more about the particular conversation that happens between the two of them in this section.

And what Colin says and how Nobby responds a bit later on. Because it fits into a bigger theme. Cool. But we are definitely not endorsing anything Colin says specifically. Absolutely not, obviously. But it's nice having them back and their dynamic. And I mean, I like the fact that Nobby's getting more of his own story. Because he's so often, I know he was sent off to go and be a toff in Feet of Clay.

Yes. But it's nice we get a bit more of the internal Nobby. He's interesting just in this book as a whole. Because he's, I know I compared him a bit to Bulldrick when we were talking about Hogfather. But he gets to be quite clever in this. They're giving him a lot more layers, aren't they? And like he opens up emotionally to Angra. And like he tells off Fred for taking the piss out of him for feeling insecure.

Yeah, he's a lot more of a sympathetic character, isn't he? He definitely is. He gets a lot more depth. He gets his, I know the sexual nature thing is kind of played off for laughs and is one of the bits that might end up problematic later on. But I think him approaching Angra and sort of asking for advice on girls is quite sweet. Yeah. He's like, I've got creams.

I've got creams. I've done exercises and that. I was speaking of Angra. Angra's back. Angra. We like Angra. We like Angra. I'm a big fan of Angra for being aggressively competent and the perfect foil to Kara.

I think my favorite moment of her is just when Vimes is assembling the watch to address them and Kara is very enthusiastically, come on, bright guys. And Vimes just catches Angra's eye and she rolls her eyes at him. She's like, we both know that Kara is like this and we just have to let it happen. Especially as it's useful. I think by this point come to terms with a lot of Kara stuff. There's a good conversation with her and Vimes about it in the next section as well. And the last watch member I want to mention because it is, again, just one of the funniest

bits of the book is Constable Downspout, the gargoyle. Oh yeah. He's not really part of the team and gets quite nervy indoors. He'd come down for the Watches Hogs Watch Party and pulled gravy in his ears to show willing. Which is the mental image of a little gargoyle. It is another funny body pie, isn't it? It's like the bit where he was talking about like the neighbors fighting after 20 years of peace and somebody's got like a garden fork in the ear

and made me laugh. Also related, Constable Pediment, the other gargoyle we had. I looked it up because we like obscure architecture. And it's like one of those triangle bits, like a triangle gable. Especially once you get on Greek things. Yeah. Oh, I just assumed Pediment was some relationship to like sediment or something because they're kind of trollish.

Oh yeah. No, my initial thought was it might have been some kind of widow's walk thing because like pad walking. Oh, right. Yeah. That's not it. Lord Rust. Lord Rust.

What a twat. What an absolute twat. That's all I have to say about him for this section. I've already mentioned the pronouncing years as Hyars. Hyars. I think that's all we've got for him on this bit. What a twat. What a twat.

I will talk about, I will rant about Lord Rust when we get to section two. Ah, cool. Do you have ideological rants? I feel like this book inspires the odd ideological rant. No, it's cool because I have like historical rants about this, the like mercenary thing. Oh, cool. Cool.

So they'll go well together is what I'm thinking. If you know anything about waging war as well, that'll be handy because I... Do you want to wage war? I was thinking more discussing military tactics on this book on the podcast. I thought you meant like after we've recorded. No, okay, yeah. Oh, we can go to war if you want to go to war. I was just going to suggest like maybe,

do you want to like just go for coffee next weekend? Yeah, let's do that. Rather war. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay. Aussie, poor Aussie. Poor Aussie.

Who gets a bit tougher. That made me so sad, like his introduction. Yeah, he sits alone. He'd tried to go and meet people. They wouldn't remember him. Yeah. That just paragraph was really well, really well written to set him up as like this sympathetic loner.

Yeah, and a lot of the... I don't think I've mentioned already, but a lot of the stuff with the lone assassin and then, you know, different trajectories and arrow, blah, blah, blah. I'm assuming it's meant to be referenced to like the conspiracy theories around JFK and whether it is a lone gunman. Yeah, the second gunman is like one of the big conspiracies, isn't it? So the second... Yeah.

Arrowman, whatever they called it here, must be. Bowman. Bowman, thank you. Arrowman. Arrowman, what? Yes, I suppose it's not a bulletman, is it? Okay. But I think it's quite telling because Aussie is being set up.

So in the book, we believe that that is the assassin, right? Until we don't believe that that is the assassin. So in this first section where he's introduced, you can believe that he is going to have a go at assassinating. Yes, yeah. So when you go into the stuff afterwards and then the explanation of you had the peacock feathers on his arrows because he thought it would make them go better in this amateur archer thing.

So I feel for Roffy. And then the Goriffs, the Goriffs family who run mundane meals. Fantastic. Because he'd ask around for a word that meant every day until he found one he liked the sound of. I must say, I know there's like a lot of problematic stuff in comedy about translation errors and Japanese English, especially. But I don't think it's problematic that I really enjoy, and it works either way, like translation book or these day Google translate translations that just go a bit wrong

because of that. Because it's like literally, yes, that is, that does mean that. But you've missed a few connotations. It's like the translation of the title of the book. Yeah. It's like, yeah, literally the Dutch burden of that just means hooray. That just means hooray. But unless you know the context of it having the fascist overtones.

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that was funny. Yeah. But it makes the Goriffs scene is really hard to read because I think especially reading it at these times in this day and age, etc. Blanket problematic. Everything is terrible section. Yeah, I don't have a whole bunch to say other than the scene where we see how angry the sun

Janil is. Sorry if we're screwing up these pronunciations. Yeah, Janil. I'd say Janil. Janil, yeah. Seeing his anger is completely understandable. Absolutely, yeah. And it's...

It's an often seen tale of like anti-establishment feeling from an oppressed part of society, like it's... Yeah. And of having to live in this country your entire life, it is your country and still being treated as this other as this foreigner. Yeah, absolutely. And finds his realization that he's just not tried to help or to talk. You know, they were always arms at the end of a curry forum, whereas

carrot is the sort of person who's picked up the language straight away because that's who carrot is. Carrot is empathy on legs. Possibly. Possibly, like overly empathetic sometimes, where it means he misses some big picture stuff. Yes, that's why he's a good part of a team. Yes, he plays off well. I think they handled the anger well as well, didn't they? The watched and I like that they didn't go thundering in like the lines as like, no, I get it.

Yeah. I'm not arresting you at this point, but I'm assuming you would maybe like to be somewhere. But you're not going to get far bottomed here. Who else are you? Oh, Willikins. Willikins is back. Willikins. Willikins is one of my favorite Discworld characters overall. He's one of my favorite like side characters. His character development is dramatic and fun.

In this book, this is where we get the Willikins that I really like. But I'm sad that he's going to leave and go and wear red and white and gold frogging in the middle of the desert. So he is with the sand colored stuff and the rocks colored like sand. You're going to be there in your red and white uniform with gold frogging. I think he does know, but he's not willing to call anything like that stupid because of the class stuff that's so ingrained. Yeah. And maybe not just that.

I think he does take a real pride in the military stuff, doesn't he, as well? Like he is old school in the old good school term. Do you know, I mean, it comes with it's problematic. He's not a Lord Russ, but he is a, and yes, I am part of the military now. And I'm going to wear my spiffy uniform and with pride. But then I think if you, well, we'll see what happens when he actually gets into that situation. But I don't think he'll be as worried about his uniform being shiny.

And then you're Prince Kufra and 71 hour Ahmed. Excellent pair, I say. Excellent pairing. This is, I like Vimes' attempts at being diplomatic, which is to not bother with being diplomatic. Absolutely. And going straight into, are we going to have this war then? Yeah. No, I think that is the best way to do with that.

Yeah. And it's clearly in the case of this guy, it is. And his subconscious was just kind of going, oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck. Okay, no, be honest, be honest. I'll tell you later, just do it. Yeah. And I think Ahmed's quite an interesting character to build in because it's building in this massive caricature that is so obvious. I would point at it and say this is super problematic.

And maybe it's just because I've got the context of the rest of the book that I'm not. But I think even in this section, it's so obviously a caricature that it's meant to be a caricature. 71 hour Ahmed's appearance in the clove chewing and then the red herring dropped clothes. Yeah. I think as we address it directly later then. Yes. I think if I were reading it for the first time, I might go, oh, at this bit, but yeah. I think I would have, yeah, I'd cringe if I didn't have the context of the whole book,

but I think it's meant to be there in the same way the sand on the floor and the clutching coins in Aussie's room are meant to be there. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's a reader version of that. Very much so. Very good. Who else? We've got Leonard's back. Yay, my favorite.

Another one of my favorite side characters because he's very sweet. Just the line of, oh yeah, I did some sketches there a few years ago. Yes. It's one of my favorite big reveal moments in the book because Vesanari doesn't catch it straight away and you hear him run back through the secret passage. Did what? That was a wonderful bit of comedy as well. It was like screen comic timing in a book.

It was fantastic. But yeah, Leonard's so sweet. He's so sweet. He means so well. His line, he's designed this war machine in the corner of a painting. No one would ever actually do it who would rain on quenchable fire down on fellow soldiers. You'd never find an artisan to build it or a soldier who'd pull the lever. Naive.

It is a big thing that gets discussed in philosophy and then taken into real world thought experiments usually to do with big shiny nuclear buttons of no one would ever do it. Isn't a very strong philosophical argument because someone always fucking would. Absolutely. It's a longish scene and I like how it alternates between the two. Yes indeed, said Vettanari, but my eye was drawn to this little sketch here, the war machine. Oh, that's a mere nothing.

Have you ever noticed the way in which the dew on roses? This bit here, said Vettanari, persisting. Yeah, the playoff between them is brilliant and Leonard's still, like we've only met him a couple of times, so he's still a character that gets explained every time, like just quickly explains that he's a total genius. He doesn't really feel like he's looked up. He likes it here and it's a nice little naming things. Subtle expositions as well, isn't it?

It's like, and his short attention span was a saving grace in a very real way. And I like the explanation that he's kept around because the patrician was, if anything, the political equivalent of the old lady who saves bits of string because you never know when they might come and hand it. And quite same. And he's right. He's right to save bit of string Leonard. Leonard is a lovely bit of string.

And the last character I want to mention, because she's my fave and we didn't really spend any time with her in Feet of Clay. Lady Sybil is back. We still don't spend a lot of time with her here. No, which makes sense, I suppose. We will get to spend more time with her in the future. Yes, she's a bit long suffering now. She's a bit long suffering now, but I can understand.

Oh, yeah, no, that's not criticism. I'm saying that was sympathy. Yes. That must be a hell of a person to be married to. And even if you knew about it coming in, seeing the duties expand, where you were expecting him to retire, must be a bit trying. But also what I quite like is despite all of the, this is trying and she's frustrated, and Vime's mind is not obviously on the marriage as much as it is on the job.

They clearly do still love each other and really enjoy each other's company. Yeah, Vime's wants to spend the evening there. The little line when they're having the dinner and she's complaining that he always has to rush off and then he's sort of saying, oh, okay, we'll have an evening in. Young forthright hasn't lit the fire. Young forthright, the boy, which is an official job, has gone off to join the war effort. And the line, Sybil gave him a gentle smile. An evening at home suddenly began to seem very inviting.

And he starts planning to go out to the woodshed and bolt the doors. And of course he gets interrupted by corporal little boss and it doesn't happen, but it's just that. He's trying. It's quite a sweet, like, quietly romantic moment. It makes me really like them as a couple. Yes, absolutely. They are a very sweet couple. We get to see more of that in the disc world and we get to, yeah.

Yeah, we will spend more time with them. Locations, of course, obviously the big one. Leshp. Leshp. And try to say that, yeah, I think I did okay. Leshp. That's why I only mention it once the entire time in the summary. Leshp, you get it wrong.

Leshp, I get it wrong. This is this island that's risen up out of the ground. I like the first scene where we kind of get set on there and it's explained, opens with the rain fell on Leshp so hard it probably hadn't been worth the island's bother of rising from the bottom of the sea. Yes, the one little personification of the poor little island. Like that. What a fucking place though, eh?

Yeah, big. It's like Cthulhu kind of vibes and like. There's something similar in Ryleigh, the ancient land in the Lovecraftian stuff and this idea of there's like different bits of civilisations buildings tacked on here and there. Squid, I have more to say about squid later, not today. I just like the prissy blue and white square showed a pattern of waves and shells and in the middle a squid. A squid.

A big squid. A big squid. Scary enough squid that everyone's skedaddled. That's another good word. Squid skedaddle. Squid skedaddle. Squid skedaddle sounds like a 1920s ragtime variant, doesn't it? Oh, it does.

Let's all play the squid skedaddle. Hey girls, let's do the squid skedaddle. Or like an old fashioned euphemism for sex. Dear, you wanted to do the squid skedaddle with me. I told him not without a ring on my finger. I say, Charlie, we better do a bit of the old squid skedaddle before your father gets home. Anyone just the transatlantic accent reporter. Yes, he gave me a bit of the old squid skedaddle.

I'll have the report file in the morning. Okay, right. We've got to stop saying squid skedaddle. On the plus side, we've got the episode title. Yeah, no, I've written that out, yeah. Sator Square is the other location I wanted to talk about. Where, sorry? Sator Square.

Oh yeah, sorry, yeah. Which is, obviously, most of the book takes place in Lake Moorpork when we're not on Leshp. But Sator Square is a particular place in Lake Moorpork with a tradition of soapbox public speaking. Yes. Similar to London's Hyde Park Corner, which has a longstanding tradition of and soapbox speaking, it would literally be people standing on whatever boxes and crates they'd find. Yeah. That's where the soapbox thing comes from.

At some point, it'd be quite fun to look into the history of that properly, wouldn't it? I'd like to go into the history of the Hyde Park Corner stuff. Yeah. And make a note of that for the future. Thank you. But it's just quite interesting that everyone is united in Sator Square to shout about the same thing when usually it's just a ragtag bunch of nonsense. I'm trying to think, what's the equivalent in another company thing?

Oh yeah, Montefythe and Life of Brian. Yes. Yeah, the whole, the town square, everyone coming together to shout and preach about their own thing on their own soapboxes. Yes. Now, that is a bit of a trope, isn't it? It is a trope. And I can't give you another example easily, but you're right.

It comes from the Speaker's Corner thing. Cool. Yeah, I thought it was interesting that that's been built into the discord now. Yeah, I feel like it might have been mentioned in passing before, but this is the first time we've seen it in action. Yeah. It's also funny that because obviously various discord Facebook groups have various rules about politics, there is a discord Facebook group called Sator Square that is particularly for

discord plans to be allowed to argue about politics. I've never been in it. If I'm a member, I've probably muted her because... Yeah, it doesn't sound... Because dot, dot, dot, yeah, might be our cat phrase at this point. Yeah, that pretty much is the entire podcast. Little bits we liked. So that's where we are.

Yes. Yes. Weathercocks. Weathercocks. What are they? Well, weather veins. We're not... No, that's called the weathercocks.

Weathercocks. It's more fun. It's more fun. It's like... What is the rude word? It's weather... Weathercock is a proper word for them, isn't it? Weathercock is a proper word.

They're more commonly called weather veins. But a cockerel is the most popular shape, which is why they're called weathercocks. I did a tiny bit of research to see if there are any fun facts or if there were any interesting ones around that aren't shaped like cockerels. Because obviously they're not often cockerel shaped and ain't more pork. Dragons, fish, miscellaneous animals. Yeah. Beggar's Guild, a tin beggar's hand asked the wind for a quarter,

which I thought was just a beautiful sentence. Yeah, that is nice. But they became popular. It's possibly... There's lots of different theories. It's one of those things that is not established as fact. Pope Gregory I may have been the one that said the rooster was the most suitable emblem of Christianity being the emblem of...

Who gives a fuck, Gregory? Jesus. Well, because they were originally mostly on churches. Oh, all right. Fine. That's kind of in his wheelhouse then. They're still more on churches than any other building. Oh.

Yeah, I guess so, yeah. Yeah, I guess so, yeah. Because there's a big church in every village. Yeah, it's the highest. And rooster is the emblem of St. Peter, a reference to Luke 22-34, in which Jesus predicts that Peter will deny him three times before the rooster crows. And so theoretically, as a result of this, the cock gradually began to be used as a weather vane on church steeples.

And in the 9th century, Pope Nicholas ordered the figure to be placed on every church steeple. Oh, well, there you go. But there are a few churches that use weather vanes in the shape of emblems of their patron saints. So there's two still in the city of London. The weather vane of St. Peter upon Cornhill is in the shape of a key. And St. Lawrence Dury's weather vane is in the form of a gridiron. Cool.

And I've linked to the weather vane's Wikipedia page in the show notes, just because there's a set of really cool pictures of different ones from around the world. They were also quite popular in China, from way, way back. And there's some very cool dragons and stuff. Oh, cool. I just had a quick look, by the way. And the etymology there, a vane, comes from the old English word funner, meaning flag. Ah, cool.

Thank you. Which is rather fun. From weather vanes, do we want to go to something in the wind? Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yes, I didn't even notice those two connected. So this is two things, actually. It's just they were on facing pages. So I thought I'd pick it.

And now every damn rock had risen up out of the sea, and everyone was acting as a clutch and let its dog bark all night. Agra agar said detritus mournfully. Don't mind me. Just don't spit it on my boot. So that defines. But agra agar in trollish apparently means like foreboding. It means literally at a time where you see the little pebbles and you just know there's

going to be a great big landslide on top here. And then I realized that agra agar is like aggregate, right? Oh, yeah. It's like a bunch of little rocks like that. Yeah. Yeah. So that one, I just wanted to point out, I picked a possible, picked up on a possible pew and then I want to look smart.

But the second one, and detritus winked. It looked me like that time where you go and find a big club and listen to Grandad telling you how he beat up all them dwarves when he was a boy. He said something in the wind, right? I just, I like the theme of wind running through. It's another of these weather things. I would like the weather things, don't I? I always pick up on the weather things.

Yeah, I really like the way he's using wind as the motif. Motif, that's what I mean. The wind as the motif through this one. If I'd remembered that for the fog, I would have sounded much smarter. But yeah, no, you're right. And also, I do really like that line from detritus of that time where you go and listen to your grandad at his club. Yeah, it's another not universal experience, but close enough to most of us that we've

had at Second Hand at least, or. It's a really good summation of that kind of vibe that you get. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I've just finally found that weathering page. Oh yeah, cool. All right, yeah, do go click through to that. Listeners. There's some cool pictures.

I like the Serpenti one. Yes. The French creepy one, yes. Anywho. My next one was like a really, really short line. I don't know why, but it just irked me. There's a like, Sibyl, she brushed them lint off her shoulder for no, women always do this. And I just put a note saying, do they?

I do. I don't think I've ever brushed lint off someone's shoulder. I know I only barely pass as a woman, to be fair. It's a. I may need one part time. I don't remember you ever doing this. I think it's a personality trape show. It is a loving gesture, I think.

And probably one that more often goes from women to men, because traditionally, it's a woman making sure a man looks smart before he goes out to do his business. It's a wifely thing of whether there's lint there, and also I'm going to brush your shoulder, and it's one last. Yeah, it's an affectionate gesture, but I will say of the people I know of male friend Sterling is the most likely to do that. Yes. I think it's very much a.

You've got to. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You've got to. Yeah. One of my exes could not rest if somebody had a hair on them. Oh, God, it was horrible.

I was the time I came close. Well, no, the time I came closest to punching him was having met him, but the hair thing drove me crazy because I have long hair that melts. Yeah. The tests that a sort of Prince Kufra and 71 Armors perform on vines, these little diplomatic tests. I really enjoy them because the point of them is, is to point out how silly some of this really stupid casual racism is.

Yeah. And I just like it as a dynamic between vines and then the Prince. The little things like, oh, can I offer you 20 camels for your wife? And I'm sort of going, hang on. That sounds like somebody in a something someone in a racist caricature would say. Yeah. He's going, oh, Bogus was going to accept 15. Yeah.

But his wife. Two camels, if you're lucky. What was, there was another one before that. Oh, yeah. Why are people calling me a towelherd? Yeah. And it's a, oh, it's a racist insult. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone else just gets a diplomatic cough. Yes. Yeah. That one I thought was particularly good as like marking vines out as the honest man in the grave. Yeah. And the, realizing the degree is the doctor of sweet fanny Adams,

which by the way, I won't go into the full origin of where the very sweet fanny Adams comes from. I will. It's in my off. Okay. I'll leave that for you then. Yes, because it's grim. It is grim. But yes, anyway, I quite like that scene.

Yes. I thought it was sweet fuck all as well. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, we'll leave that then. Oh, a foreshadow. We did a foreshadow. Oh, we foreshadowed.

Well done us. The last one I noticed, and it was a very little thing, is that the, there's an agatean tourist taking iconographs during the convivium. And that's how they get photos of like where the shooting happened from and stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I like the detail of there being an agatean tourist.

Yeah. Because obviously that was two flowers whole thing and he was the first tourist and it was a big deal. Yeah. So now there's just having had the events of interesting times. Now people can very casually be touristy from the agatean empire. Yeah. Obviously there's still, I brought up back in color of magic, there are some issues over the sort of stereotypical Asian tourist thing.

Was he doing anything stereotypical? Well, I pointed out the agatean empire is meant to be an allegory for China. So then this idea of there is sort of a weird stereotype around Chinese tourists looking a certain way and actually like Chinese people being tourists. I think maybe that's reaching slightly in this case. But it's a nice in-world detail that people can be tourists from the agatean empire. Yeah. I mean, I think that's it.

It was a callback to the fact that now there are tourists. Yeah. Anyway, from my clumsiness, let's have me now try and talk about well-wished and casual racism. Okay. Good. Good segue. Let's address the squid in the room, shall we? Oh, gross.

I'm sorry, squid. I didn't mean that. Well, no, but obviously the point Pratchett is making with this book is how fucking silly and nationalistic people can get very quickly. Yeah. And how easily it develops. And although it's uncomfortable to read because it's too real, Pratchett does write it really well. Yeah, he does.

He writes examples of it really well. And I think part of it, I was more angry and depressed when I did my first read-through than when I did the notes for this because the day I was doing the first read-through was the same day our mutual friend sent us a picture of racist graffiti. He'd have to scrub off the wall by his house. Yeah, it's always a little frying when one of these links up with something that's just happened. Yeah. I know a lot of people face a lot worth every day, but it's just shit to have that reminder

that lots of people in this town are that dumb. Yeah. Yeah, that's gross. Anyway. Anyway, on the other hand, we do have friends who will go straight out and scrub that off the wall when they see it. So that's nice. Yes.

They're a good people too. But yeah, some of the examples of it, and like I said, it's really well-written. Veterinary having a very good sort of moment. Where are we? He's talking about why people are going to Leshpin, why they're fighting around at page 24 and 25. Yes, yes. And Boggs is saying, why are our people going out to this island? And Veterinary says, because they're showing a brisk pioneering spirit,

seeking wealth and additional wealth in a new land. And Danny says, what's in it for the clatchings? Well, they've gone out there because there are a bunch of unprincipled opportunities, always ready to grab something for nothing. Oh, no way. And just the deadpan delivery of that line and the completely lack of picking up of any kind of irony by everyone else around the table, because it matches what they would like to believe, which is that

the clatchings are dirty, land grabbing opportunities, whereas the more porky ends are noble pioneers. And then he rolls it into the next bit with, oh, I do beg your pardon. I seem to have read those two sentences in the wrong order. Mr. Slant, I believe. Not giving anyone time to react to that is perfect. It's like, you think about that in the back of your heads while we do the rest of it, please. It's the whole expat versus immigrant thing, isn't it?

It's the same thing again. It's the expat versus economic migrant. That's the same thing. Yeah, gross. Have I mentioned I hate people? Yes. Sorry. Yes, you have.

And I've agreed. I will say I did enjoy this bit for the concept of Mr. Slant, the bit of a dicker lawyer, being able to go through a thousand years of law surrounding this kind of thing. The idea of having a thousand-year-old bit of maritime law that you could go through is very pleasing, because I guess that might just be us. I like the handy other bits of old laws. Like, in the scenario, saying, well, if you're sure it was the shot from the Barbican Nazi,

why was Captain Carrot firing archery butts from on top of the opera house? It's just, well, it was a law that says every citizen should practice archery for an hour a day. So, yes. And you know, Carrot just mentioned that while he was going through his big stack of stuff, because it was probably him that dug out the riot act and all of that. And yeah. I think it says in the book somewhere that the riot act was something Carrot had dug out at some point.

But the other thing, again, Vime's remembering, you know, these jokes are made quite often. And as he's realing, sorry, as he's realising how quickly the tide can turn into this full-on jingoistic nationalism, and him suddenly spotting the pebbles that were there all along. Oh, there's all the jokes about funny food and foreigners, but surely, not very funny jokes come to think of it. Yes. And that's sort of followed up with when you hear the bang, there's no time to wonder how long the little fuse has been fizzing.

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. That's a good bit of foreboding. And then I meant, Colin and Nobby playing the straight man and calling him out on pretty much everything he's saying is he does it. Yes. Yes. This is Colin had had the broad education of the school of my dad always said,

the college of it stands to reason, and the postgraduate student of the university of what some bloke in the pub told me. Is another one of these ones we picked up as amusing before, like Mrs. Cake and the common sense philosophy? But it's just, it's frustrating to read because I think I've just met a couple too many people like this, especially in the fucking pub. It's a man in the pub. It's that definite kind of being all chummy, just saying the little racist stuff, and you're like,

and they're like, well, that sounds the reason. I immediately get aggressive if called out. Gross. Don't be gross people. I don't know why I'm saying that. I can't imagine anyone like that would have listened to more three minutes of our photos. But it's the blatant literally saying they're not like us, they're too brown bit, which Nobby is very quickly going, well, okay, but...

What about this person? This person. Yeah. And me. What color am I? Yeah. There was no one alive who was the same color as Corporal Nob's. Yeah.

And Fred being, oh, well, I loved this bit. Fred being like, well, I don't care what I'm called. And then getting immediately sensitive when Nobby doesn't call him Sarge. Because it's either, again, in real life, it's these people like, well, everyone's just too sensitive. Everyone's being a snowflake who are always the people who go fucking mental if you call them out. Yeah. Or just don't treat them with what they consider to be respect, which is

some of that's an age thing. Like we're talking the kind of boomer generation here. And what they sort of seem to perceive as being treated with respect is being treated as superior, whereas for us, being treated with respect is being treated as an equal. Yes. I read a really good quote on that. I think it might have been a Tumblr text post or something to be honest. I think that's where I got it from, to be honest.

Yeah. It's like, to some people, respect means being treated as a superior. To some people, respect means being treated like a human being. Yeah. And those first group of people will demand being treated like a superior, or they won't treat you like a human being. They use both definitions. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just, again, it's frustrating to read, but I like Nobby's reaction to it, like sort of saying, also, they viciously attack you while also cowardly running away after tasting cold steel. Yes. And it's like the old lazy immigrant taking my job thing. Yeah. Troding as immigrant.

Yes. And it's just, it's a really good foil to it to have Nobby there just having a good memory and pointing out the discrepancies. And as you pointed out, this whole scene with Colin and what he's being called. And I think that's the problem is that Colin is existing as this every man character to display how a lot of the people in Ant Moorpalk are thinking right now. Yeah. And then Nobby's there existing as this foil to point out how stupid that way of thinking is.

Yeah. It's very well written. It's really well done. But Colin is not necessarily the worst intentioned character. He just needs an educate, well, not even an education, but a kick into thinking twice. He needs his horizons broadened slightly. Yes. It's interesting, isn't it?

Because he's ex-military as well, isn't he? And Nobby is to the extent that he used to nix stuff off their bodies. Yeah. But which context was it? He was being a dickhead last time. Oh, it was having the different species during the watch, wasn't it? It was in men at arms. Yeah.

Yeah. It was their not like us thing. Which is also another interesting thing about this book is that it said in multiple other Discworld books before this one, racism didn't really exist on the disc because everyone was speciesist instead. And then we get the book where we do actually get racism between human beings. I think at a point, perhaps it went, oh, I think that might have been a bit of a cop out.

So I'm just going to ignore that I said that and actually address an issue. Yeah. Like, no, I think about it. I think possibly it's just that he got to the point where he felt confident to tackle around world problem as directly as this. Yeah. And I think this is one of the most directly tackling around world problem as opposed to tackling around world thing.

There's some more classism stuff that comes up later. Yeah. Not in this book later in the series. But yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think this is probably the most direct. Yeah. Which can you, can you remind me? Do you, did you find what year this one came out?

This was early 90s. 97. Oh, so we're into mid to late 90s. So yes, there is also around the time of the First Gulf War, which I'm going to assume. Yes, I'm sure there was a lot of post first for this because and also because anti-Islam sentiment obviously fucking skyrocketed after 9-11. Yeah. I don't know what it was like beforehand.

I'm sure there was a fair bit of it in the, yeah. I wasn't exactly politically aware when I was five years old. No, no, but it might have been a more prominent part of social history if it hadn't then gotten much worse, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. So I've not, I actually have no idea. Listeners older than us, please do let us know if you remember.

The culture. The kind of cultural feeling around this time. Yeah. Obviously, we know that England has never not been racist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but just, it's nice to have a history. It's nice. Yeah. And I mean, I think Pratchett in these ones definitely goes for the British Empire feeling,

doesn't he? But yeah, you can see the moustaches quivering on all of these men, not Colin, but I mean like Rust. Yeah. There's always an implied quivering moustache, but this whole thing really comes to a head with the not riot around mundane meals after Janelle shot someone. Or the not riot around mundane meals sounds like such a shit entry in a history book, doesn't it? Ah, yes, the 1763 not mundane non-riots.

But that actually turns out 60,000 people died. Yes. But not this time because detritus managed to stall everybody. But by the time Vines gets there, you know, people are saying, oh, the clatchin's been shooting people. People have been killed and Vines is like, fucking where? Who? Everyone knows they've been killing people.

And is that everyone knows thing? There's no one knows anything directly, but everyone knows someone who knows someone. There's a huge, very terrifying area of psychology around this, which is that if you hear something even in a dubious context or even in the context of someone telling you this didn't happen, the brain absorbs it and the more times you hear it, the more real it becomes. And exactly how that would have happened in this situation with someone heard someone say that someone got shot and then someone might, someone else might have got, oh, yeah,

but he didn't get killed. But then the word killed was in the air. Yeah, yeah. It's the, and it doesn't have to be deliberately exaggerating right to happen. And that's not to say people don't, because obviously they do, especially now with the fucking internet. God, I sound so old every episode now.

No, I like the internet. I do. But I love the internet, but the misinformation on the internet and misleading headlines thing is exhausting and terrifying. Anyway, yeah, that was sort of the big point I was coming to. It comes to a head when everyone starts saying everyone knows. Yes. And that is when things get horrifying, horrifying, terrifying.

One of those terrifying. Yes, it is. What was your, sorry. Oh, no, sorry. Yeah, I was just enjoying hearing you talk about this bit. I was going to ask you more questions, but you're quite right. We've got lots to talk about that next week as well, haven't we? Oh, yeah, this will be an ongoing theme.

Not quite as fun as the power of belief, but. Not as fun at all. No, but probably more relevant to, unfortunately, our real lives. Why can't I believe in things still that exist? That's a thing that's back in fashion. Is it manifestation? It's like, it manifests my weird. If anybody, if anybody thinks this, I know, again,

I'm talking to the wrong group of listeners here, but just in case anybody thinks that this old, trendy or whatever to be doing the manifestation, I want you to look up Noel Edmonds. Yeah. And the wish. Fucking fake doctors, real friends. The Scrubs podcast I listen to, that's the two guys from Scrubs.

I do have to skip through a lot of when they talk about their lives, because A, they talk about the diets they're on constantly, which I get, they're like in Hollywood and under pressure, but also like, I don't need to fucking hear it constantly, especially in January, but they talk about manifestation and they have a big whiteboard and they put what they want on their whiteboard and that helps them work towards it. And it's like, if you need to put it on a fucking.

They do that non-ironically. Yeah. They're like, oh, see, I had it on the whiteboard and then I got it. And it's like, maybe you've got it because you've been in the industry for a long time, so the connections. To an extent, I get it because if you're seeing it and you're reminding yourself every day and you try and make the decisions to go towards it,

but acting like it's supernatural in some way is a bit. Yes. Yeah. Like, I don't have written on a whiteboard in my flat narrative designer at AAA Game Studio because I don't need to have it written down to remind me. I do have to write in big letters, place your waitrose order, so I don't just get a Magnum of Bollinger delivered

because that's what I put in to hold the cart. Oh, maybe I should stop just trying to manifest my waitrose order and... Like, do a great... Yeah. Yeah. I'm manifesting my groceries. I have Papa John's. Fuck.

I think it's close enough. Yeah. This is what the universe wanted you to have. Anyway. Sorry. Speaking of things appearing out of nothing. Excellent. Well done.

Ferdinandia. Let me bring out my big page of notes. Almost all of my notes were on this after we got past the intro. So the island from which I assume Pratchett drew a lot of inspiration for this appeared in the summer of 1831. Lurking beneath the waves to the south of Sicily is a large volcano, Empedocles, named for the Greek philosopher who originated theory of the four elements, fire, air, water, earth.

And now I can't confirm this, but I assume the name nods to like the multi-elemental nature of an underwater volcano. I'm just trying really hard not to make an avatar reference. Oh, go on. Do... And then one day the fire nation attacked. Okay. Thank you.

You can go now. Cool. It's not healthy to keep these things inside. Yeah. But yeah, so I guess like because it's earth, isn't it? Obviously because it's volcano. You've got water. Yeah.

You've got fire because it's volcano and air, I guess, the smoke. Yeah. Yeah. Let's say that. Also like literally there's just air around pretty much everywhere you go. Yeah, that's cheating. But yes. Ferdinandia did not slip so subtly to the surface as did Leshp.

On 10th July, 1831, one captain, Kroyo, a fisherman from Sicily, sailed within two miles of what he's describing as a column of water rising perpendicularly from the sea to the height of 50 or 60 feet, having a circumference of 400 fathoms, smoke issued from it which strongly impregnated the atmosphere of its vicinity with a sulfurous odour. Dead fish were observed within the circle of agitated waters and a violent thunder proceeding from the same spot added to the grandia and the novelty of the sea. I think this fisherman missed his calling as a writer.

A few days later, commander C.H. Swinburne of the Royal Navy, the British Royal Navy, saw flashes of brilliant light mingled with smoke which was still distinctly visible by the light of the moon. In a few minutes, the whole column became black and larger, almost immediately afterwards, several successive eruptions of fire rose up among the smoke. At 5am, when the smoke had for a moment cleared away at the base, I saw a small hillock of a dark colour a few feet above the sea. As is the British way, the Royal Navy nipped in between eruptions and planted a flag. They named it Graham Island after First Lord of the Admiralty, Sir James Graham. The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, as it was at the time, alarmed by the move,

countered with its own flag planting. They named the island Ferdinandea after the King, Ferdinand the Second. I'm referring to the island as Ferdinandea because that seems to be the way it's titled in historical documents now and because it seems like Sicily probably had the best claim because the island popped up between Ciacca and Pantelleria, which was another volcanic island already claimed by Sicily. So, English sailors probably set foot on the island first, but I think by 1831, that wasn't quite the checkmate claim it had been in the past. Yeah, it wasn't quite finder's keepers. Yeah, so it's like we're talking about in this book, isn't it? It's like politics have made it all a bit different.

Yeah. You can't just do you, get what you grab or whatever slant says in that in. Exactly. This new island had appeared in a tactically valuable position. It was near Mediterranean shipping routes and it could have acted as a hopping spot between Italy and Tunisia. Because of this, other countries with far more tenuous claims also threw their flags in the hat. So, France, who did in fact invade Tunisia in 1881, so you can see why they did this, planted their flag on the highest point of the island and named it Il Julia as in July. Spain also declared its intentions to claim the island. The dispute between the four countries ran for about five months, despite the fact that

Third Nandere was looking unlikely to stick around. At its peak, the island was about 63 meters high and 4,800 meters in circumference, but its base was formed mainly from the fragile kind of cinder rock, which was rapidly eroded by the waves. And so it sank again by the end of the year. The mass now sits about eight meters below the waves and it's home to a coral shoal and many species of fish. That's nice. Oh, lovely. I'm happy for the island. Yes, a small postscript. In 2002, the area saw further volcanic activity. And just in case the island re-emerged, Italian divers went down and planted their national flag on the underwater seamount. However, the shoal has stayed put. I presume to the delight of the fish who

live there. Yes. See, I always just thought of Lesh was like, what if Atlantis came back up? And there's definite hints of the Atlantis around there. There's an omnibus episode on Ferdinandere, which came out in 2020. So I think it was fairly recently I started learning about this, but then I looked it up and realized I'd definitely seen this story before and then realized not on this planet. Not in this dimension, but... Yeah. So I'll link some cool things about that. And yeah, I just thought that was a nice little history bit. And now we've had a fun little history bit. Do you have an obscure reference video for us, Francine? Yeah, it's full of fun little history bits. Sorry, I always end up

cramming all of these together. So my obscure history finial, there's a few different references that kind of got tangled up when I was researching, but it's not too extensive, don't worry. It's not like that one time, I just kept going forever. So on Discworld, Captain Jenkins was nearly imprisoned in a class chain jail after trying to trade rotten mutton. And that is used to kind of attempt incitement during the ramp up to the conflict. I think it was during the bit you were talking about in Sator Square. Yeah. Possibly. Yeah, it was, it was that early opening bit. Yeah. So on Round World, the War of Jenkins Ear was, I'm sure you've heard about this, but it was a conflict that was excused by British Captain Robert Jenkins allegedly having his ear

cut off by Spanish sailors when they boarded his ship to search for contraband. In reality, this was used as an incitement when Britain was war mongering with Spain anyway, as we do. It's a stupid sounding war, but it did result in over 50,000 people dead. So yeah, related, but not really, it's just another tangential to Jenkins one. Prince, I'm sorry, what was his name? Carufa? Carufa or Cufra? Cufra, yeah. It's given the honorary degree of sweet Fanny Adams. Fanny Adams was an eight-year-old English girl who was murdered and dismembered in 1867 in a truly shocking and very well-publicised case. And as the British Navyers want to do, that was a joke very quickly. And by 1869, British sailors were referring

to unpleasant mutton rations as Fanny Adams. So it was a mutton link there. And also, yeah, it's just worth mentioning the origin of sweet Fanny Adams, because yeah, I think I'd heard that it meant sweet fuck all, but no, much worse. Yeah, it was sweet Fanny Adams. They started referring to the mutton as that, and then it kind of came to me nothing and looped back around to sweet fuck all. And then finally, as the annotate profile noted, Jenkins ship is called Milka. One of Christopher Columbus' ships was named the Pinter and a UK milk marketing slogan from the 80s, exhorted people to say, to exhorted people to drinker, pinter, milker day. Milka is also the name of a chocolate that I really like.

That is a nice chocolate, yeah. Was it Swiss? It is. I think so, yeah. But the first time I tried it, I was in Spain. They had it in like, you know, European grocery stores are just the best place in the world. No, it's not. I think it is Swiss, but you find it in lots of European grocery stores. Sorry, that's totally irrelevant. Yeah, European grocery stores are great, I agree. They are. Just always going to any grocery store in a foreign country is very exciting for me. Possibly, I need to get out more. No, they're great. And yes, you do, though, to different countries to visit their grocery stores. I agree. I fucking love going food shopping in

different countries. It's a little more fraught. Now, I don't eat meat, I will admit, because half the adventure is just picking stuff up and going, I did in Turkey more than once by yoghurt instead of milk by accident, because it's in the same place and it's like a pouring yoghurt. You drink yoghurt with, yeah, it doesn't go well in tea, though. So. Right. I think at this point, we've said everything we can say about part one of Gingo. We'll be back next week with part two. I don't know if I've said Happy New Year to the listeners, by the way, but Happy New Year. Happy New Year, listeners. This is our first episode of 2022. Thank you. You know what year it is. I heard you hesitate there. Part two starts on

page 132 in the Corgi paperback with Mrs. Spent opened the door, a crack and ends. Oh, I had two options for what it ends. I think I went with the second one. Well, we are now. We are now, I'm declaring that with, yes, we expect them to be good at it. Blue eyes, we are directs on page 285 in the Corgi paperback. 285. Thank you. Oh, that's a nice, that's a nice long middle section there. It is. I've kept the last section a bit shorter because I feel like we'll have more overall overarching. Yes, overall over archings. Arches. Yes. Anyway, so until next week,

dear listener, you can follow us on Instagram at the true shall make ye fret on Twitter at make ye fret pod on Facebook at the true shall make ye fret. You can join our subreddit community r slash ttsmyf. You can email us your thoughts, queries, castles and snacks and send us an albatross, the true shall make ye fret pod at gmail.com. If you want to support us financially, you can go to patreon.com forward slash the true shall make ye fret and exchange your hard-earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. We just did a rabbit hole episode on cool traditions surrounding the winter solstice and the year. Yeah. So if you want to learn more about the stote dropping, that's all I've got. There's a lot of cool stuff in the episode.

And then it's a stote dropping physically that made it sound like it was scat. I'm so good at promoting it. And in the meantime, dear listener, don't let us detain you. I might start like shuffling my papers at the end here, in like a news readout and we'll just like mouth conversation. Let's replay the music, yeah.